Advice Line with John Zimmer of Lyft

Transcript from https://podmenti.com/t/6765affada913faf


Hello and welcome to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show.
who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Leave us a one minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you like help with. All right, let's get to it.
Joining me today is John Zimmer, co-founder of Lift. John, uh it's great to have you back on the show. Welcome back.
Thank you. It's good to be here.
Uh we first had you on the show back in twenty seventeen. You also came to some of the High Belta summits. So awesome having you.
Uh when you were on the show and we'll put a link to this episode to that episode in the podcast notes.
Uh you told us about how you and your friend uh Logan Green built what started as a carpooling platform, and then you built it into one of the biggest ride chair apps.
In the world of course lift.
Um, it's an in it's an incredible story. You guys went up against so much along the way. There were
Government's telling you to s cease and desist. Uh you had an epic battle with your main competitor Uber, which was
quite ugly and there's actually a uh sort of a
uh dramatization of this it came out a couple years ago. I thought you came out really nicely in that actually.
Um
Anyway, since then you've there's been some pretty big changes since we last spoke. You
We're president of Lift, Logan was CEO, uh then in twenty twenty three both of you guys transitioned to
uh non-executive roles on the board. And then just last month I think you you both left Lyft entirely. So tell us a little bit about that. Why why did you leave? Why why was now the right time to do it?
Yeah, it was it was very difficult. Uh we
Love lift, love the team.
Uh love the CEO, David who's doing a phenomenal job.
But we wanted to both have another chapter in our lives and make sure that
Lift had
The right leadership in place.
uh for its own next chapter and we felt that it did.
And and so we had a two year process where we
Went from
Operating rules to the board and then
Off the board just uh a few weeks ago. How does that feel?
For you. I mean, this is your thing that you started.
Yeah.
I think the harder step for me was was leaving the operating role.
It was
what I did every day. It gave me a lot of purpose and meaning
You know, outside of uh my family life.
And then going from
Being, you know, I would argue argue, obsessed with uh
making Lyft the best possible company it could be.
To not doing that every day, to having
All my time in the day free.
It was a hard transition, but the second part of the transition kind of moving off the board uh was was a little less difficult and I'm also
Excited about building again.
Yeah, l I'd just like to dive into that.
For a moment.
I think a lot of people assume, Oh wow, you know, you build this huge thing and you know, it's a huge brand and then you get to do a victory lap and then you can like go and drink margaritas in in Mexico.
But it but when you go from like
working at you know operating at a hundred miles an hour and then all of a sudden
Like you are at home, you wake up and
There is no
all those things that you had to do are gone. You d you don't have to do them. Yeah. It's actually really hard.
Yeah it was. Um
It's a
privileged problem to have, but uh, you know, for three
Three months I think I felt relief. My shoulders dropped.
I was on constant, you know
Cortisol adrenaline rushes, you know, when I was at lift.
And and kind of in in this fight or flight mode.
uh for many years because of all the early battles you mentioned.
And then after those three months of just feeling almost like a
physical ah like r I feel a bit uh relieved. Um
Then I felt a little bit lost.
And
Uh, you know, I'm I'm in the kitchen with my wife.
talking about how we could, you know, reorganize different
Canisters and she's like, You you need to
You need to do something else.
Yeah, and so uh
So yeah, it's been a journey since then. Um, but you know, I'd advised several entrepreneurs, made some investments and and now going back to kinda
More full time.
Work again and so
uh I love doing it. I love creating businesses with missions that I believe in and
And that's the plan.
Alright, you when you
Now made this announcement that you were leaving Lyft in August. You also announced the launch of a new venture called Yes and
And it said, uh I think it's something like I'm I'm gonna leave everybody hanging here.
What can you tell us about it?
that you're comfortable talking about now.
Yeah, so just at a high level.
I got to zoom out a lot during that time and
To the point of thinking about
Capitalism as a whole.
And
I remember listening to a speech from
uh Malay, uh th the the leader in Argentina, and he gave the speech about
how capitalism and entrepreneurship are
the most amazing thing ever. And it was actually quite inspiring.
But he also just said any form of
growth is good. And I I so I felt like he got eighty percent of the way there.
But
Um
If I thought about well, soda.
In my opinion.
If you get people to drink a lot of soda, you apply capitalism to sugar water
You get diabetes.
Yeah.
I don't think that's a great outcome. I mean it's it's you can build a successful business off of it, but what we're seeing in food is that, you know, more and more people are looking for healthy outcomes. And so
Uh I said well how could we
create multiple consumer businesses that are tuned to the modern world of uh social media, internet.
And AI.
But that have
self fulfilling very positive outcomes.
So simply, you know, we're creating a platform
uh to help more and more people build those type of businesses.
Um
You you also mentioned the just the s challenges of Lift, and I know, you know, I've seen you from time to time over the years and it's a it's a big job. And and lift is an amazing brand. I st I still use it, just use it from the airport uh recently, just actually last week.
Um, and you have been pretty open about uh but the mental health struggles that you faced, right? Because a lot of people, even around you, they look to you, you're the leader, you've gotta be strong, you've gotta be decisive.
Um but y but then you come home at night and you're like, I can't sleep. Oh my brain is reeling or I've got anxiety. And it happens to all of us, right?
Yeah.
What do you think?
would have been helpful for you to know or to w I guess what what would you have done differently?
Yeah, I mean it's
It's it really comes back to the
basics of sleep.
Diet and exercise and it's
I don't know
Wanna blame external externalities like
I myself was putting a lot of pressure on myself, like I should be working at all hours.
to make this succeed. I have a lot of people depending on me. People have invested in in the business and I want them to do well.
Uh I want, you know, drivers and riders to be safe and do well.
So it felt
Uh it felt selfish almost to take time for myself.
But I think the the main learning is
If I don't do that.
If I don't get the the necessary sleep
Uh exercise and and
You know.
nutrients, then I'm not gonna be able to better serve
So it's really, really basic, but
In the storm uh hard to see.
Yeah, it's uh I mean absolutely critical. And I think we're gonna probably talk a bit more about that. Why don't we bring in our first call, are you ready?
Sounds good. All right. Welcome to the advice line. You're on with John Zimmer, co founder of Lift. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just one line about your business.
Hi John, hi Guy, um I'm Alan Summerfield, I'm the founder of Shower Spar.
Calling from Nottingham in the United Kingdom.
And we're on a mission to make showers safer, easier, and more luxurious for everyone.
All right, Alan, welcome. So glad you're listening in the UK. Shower Spa Yeah.
Spelled S P A A H like space. Yeah. We put the we put the R in spa.
I love that. Okay, what is shower spa? What is the what do you sell?
So Shower Spar is the uh it's the first device of its kind to mix soap and water on demand.
It gives you a shower of warm scented bubbles straight from the showerhead, which is an experience.
Frankly, not to be missed.
So it's a shower head
That basically
Takes the soap, like the shower gel or shower soap, and then it combines it with the water, and so you're just getting sprayed with the Exactly. It's like a it's like a car wash for people, but way nicer.
But what do you w what how do you rinse off the soap? Do you can just turn it off you just it's two parts, there's a display part, you just turn it off.
Alright, so you're not just like in suds all the time.
To the pipes.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, just screw it on a couple of minutes. Yeah. If you can change your light bulb, you can connect this.
And and where'd it come from? Did you did you find it somewhere? Did you create it there's two parts. So yeah, I created it. The the technical the technical story started actually almost twenty years ago in Los Angeles when I was
Working for one of the major shower manufacturers there.
That was the technical part. But then it was a few years back when my I noticed my mother having more difficulty with balance around the house and actually, you know, bathrooms are really dangerous places. And I thought
You know, after a career of designing
kinda discretionary products wouldn't it be nice to do something that really helped people out. So that's where we're focused.'Cause
Not having to mess around with bottles of
Body wash means you're not fiddling with them, you're not dropping them, you're not falling over when you're trying to
Pick them up and
And so on. So it makes it much safer.
That's so cool. So when did you when did you decide to like take the leap and start your own thing?
It's a classic pandemic story. It had a little bit more time on my hands and I thought, you know what?
This idea's been kicking around my head for almost twenty years. I'm gonna do something. I'm not gonna wait for one of these big corporates to make their mind up.
And I thought
Yeah.
Let's do it. Let's get it to market.
I love this. I so all right, so I'm looking at your website now, so now I can see it. It is basically a soap dispenser that you connect just screw on into the uh the h the shower. Yes, handheld that you attach. And how tell me how did you fund it? How did I mean did you did you raise money? Did you how did you get this
Manufactured.
I'm a classic bootstrapping story. I I told my children that the bank of dad was gonna close down for a bit and I cashed in some of my pension fund.
It's awesome. You know, it's reminds me of another great British inventor, J James Dyson, who was on our show many years ago. And he did the same thing and he struggled and struggled.
He spent all of his cash and then of course that vacuum cleaner went crazy. It's now the biggest, you know, vacuum brand in the world. Yeah. Um all right, so w tell me where the business is at right now. You you've got this thing, you're selling I'm assuming you're selling mainly online.
Yeah, mainly online in the UK. We've been in the market about a year.
Uh we've sold
Two two and a half thousand units made about two hundred thousand dollars. So getting great
Reviews, you know, some
Yeah, people are calling it life changing. There are people there who
Was scared to take a shower?
Who now can take a shower again without worrying about
Hurting themselves.
So really this is designed initially
for people who have sort of disabilities or mobility issues.
Well
Initially it was designed as a luxury product, but then I discovered this real need for people who have these issues. So it's a fully inclusive design.
Well.
We use it every day, it is quicker, more convenient, and feels great.
It's just it is just a better way to take a shower.
All right, before we dive against so I'm so impressed with this. Tell me uh tell you what your question is for us.
So so we've got
Off to a great start here in the UK.
Obviously the market for this in the US where you guys are is uh substantially larger.
Uh, and I'm considering how do I scale into that market. And there's a kind of a nuts and bolts part to it about fulfillment. Do I get warehousing and start
Doing the same thing I'm doing here in the USA.
How do I balance that?
with actually branching away from the mobility market into the broader luxury wellness
market because ultimately
Every shower on the planet should have one of these in it.
Right. So how do you how how do you and should you get into the US market and obviously makes sense. You've got sixty five million people in Britain, but I mean three hundred thirty million in the US, right? It's a market that everybody wants to come to. John Zimmer, I want to bring you in. Have you seen this? Are you looking at their website? Have you seen it? Yeah, yeah, I just checked it out while we were talking.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's fantastic. And I love the
kinda personal story of why it's meanful to you, Alan. I think a lot of the best
Products and businesses come from a passionate place. So I loved hearing
That uh he built it.
For a family member.
Yeah, yeah.
So what so what do you think? I mean any f any questions for for Alan before we dive into his question?
Um
Yeah, so
Do you know of that uh two to three thousand units
what percent was from
people needing it for mobility challenges versus
Kind of the luxury use case you talked about. Well, we've only been marketing it to the mobility challenge people, so I would say virtually all are in that market.
But we we also get some people who are buying it to wash their dog.
Oh it's
Perfect for my dog. I cannot keep my dog still'cause I so this was perfect for my dog.
Yeah, so I I mean my my quick reaction is I would
I would wanna run a few tests on the the different use cases. So the now I didn't un I didn't even think of until you said the the dog use case uh and the luxury use case to really understand kind of what's your cost
per acquiring a new customer.
And it feels like that could be easier to do it in your current home market.
uh and really understand the the unit economics of okay, I wanna go find that luxury user, I wanna go find that dog.
Washer. Um
But uh to understand those basic economics
I think, you know, in the in the way you asked the question, I don't know that you need to set up
The warehousing yourself.
You know, whether you think about using someone
Uh either like a uh
Third party logistics solution or Shopify. Or Amazon. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
I'll be using Shopify at the moment and I've got a three PL here in the UK.
Yeah, so I would I think there are obviously very low cost ways to to bring this to the to the US.
Um, maybe that it doesn't give you the same amount of margin, but at least
You're learning.
Um and so I would want to like test and learn.
uh as I expand in into a big market.'Cause
You know, one risk of going too wide
Early is that.
you know, maybe you're tweaking the product or the way you market it and can do it more efficiently. But
Balance with I think uh it's exciting to see the fast start. So
I wouldn't t I wouldn't wait too long.
Yeah, I I think it was one of the many business books you read that says when you've got a product that can do everything
Pick one thing and really focus on it.
So that I decided to focus on mobility as a starting point. I I think that's really smart. I mean, uh I think back to some of the episodes we've done, like Peloton.
Right, or or War even Warby Parker. Like Peloton started with serious, like real like hardcore athletes, and then it became a huge fitness thing, right? For for mass consumers. Even Warby Parker.
Was like
For a certain kind of person frustrated with expensive glasses, and now it's a brand, it's a fashion brand, right? Like it's just you go in and you get it, it's everywhere. So I think that.
That really leaning into that
the category of of of mobility people who need extra help. That's a really smart
Play.
I I'm curious, are there I mean I have to imagine in the UK there are like in the US retirement villages and uh and large care facilities f have you tried to to um connect with some of these places to see if the if th there's a world where you know there's
You've got like large orders.
I mean there's there's five hundred thousand care home beds in the UK and I think one point one point four million supported living units.
Th there is a you know, we've got lowering birth rates and increasing lifespan, so we've got a care gap that's just getting wider.
Yeah. Absolutely, yeah, trying to make those connections, but that's a that's a longer game than selling D to C off a lot. John I have a c I have a question for you. I mean right now, I Alan, I'm assuming it's just you doing everything.
Uh pretty much, yeah. Okay.
At this point, John.
I'm thinking he's gotta
take the leap and hire like a biz dev person. I don't know. What what do you think in terms of I mean it's hard because it's still a small business and he doesn't want to lose
You know, it's risky, you gotta pay somebody, but maybe there's a way to attract somebody.
to do business development and give'em some equity.
Yeah. I think if you find the right maybe up and comer
Who's excited, entrepreneurial.
And could have those long
longer lead time conversations with you.
Or for you.
Uh'cause I I agree with the the sentiment. Both
Both Alan, I think your pushback is good on focus. Focus is really, really important.
And you you're kind of w winning in that category.
But those I mean the number of beds you just outlined, that that's a pretty exciting opportunity. And so if someone could be Yeah and and I think in the US it's pretty consolidated
Uh obviously there's a long tail, but there are some players that have a lot of those
Yeah, care facilities. And so th those feel like really good conversations to be having.
Yeah. No, I'm just uh just getting into my first fundraising round with the objective of hiring that kind of business def person if I can find that person.
So J John, I'm just curious, like if you're if you're looking at a product like this, right, I mean it does make sense, you want to come to the US market.
And
Uh and there are all these use cases, but I mean w uh what do you think? I mean, should he
Should he spend most of his time focusing on, you know, retirement communities?
people with mobility issues. Every hotel you go to has an a you know, ADA rooms and things like that.
I could see this in like, you know, Marriott comfort ins and residence ins and stuff like that.
Yeah, that's why I mean
I think there's a few different approaches. I do think focus matters, particularly when you're a team of one. Uh
But I imagine
There is a bigger opportunity.
Or an additional opportunity beyond mobility. So I would that's why I uh you know the initial thought was run a few experiments with
With AdWords.
uh Google AdWords or some other product like that or something on Amazon, you can market it in a couple different ways and understand your cost to acquire that customer.
And
You know, for the thousand people or the ten thousand people that saw the ad, how many clicked, how many
purchased and and what was the cost to find them.
Uh that would be really interesting information to me if I was
making a decision about going wider at this point.
Sure. It's great advice. Yeah. And then having a few of those conversations with the
Um
kind of channel sales opportunities to those
Uh
You know.
Over
Sixty five homes.
Uh, because that does feel like a a really straightforward sale.
Absolutely. Yeah, that's great advice. Thanks.
Yeah.
Hopefully Alan will talk to you on the the main show one day when you're selling billions of dollars worth of this. That's been my dream. My dream. Uh the brand is called Shower Spa S P A A H. Alan Summerfield. Thanks for calling in.
Thanks for having me. Cheers. Bye bye. Thank you.
Good luck.
Yeah, I I like that. I really I I love when you've got a founder who's invented something, you know, m most of the time it's engineers and they
Yeah. They just know how to build stuff.
Yeah, I I mean Dyson, Litter Robot, uh we've had uh you know, Leatherman, the Leatherman knife.
Do you know do you know why it's called The Leatherman? I don't. You didn't listen to the episode. Do you know why?
'Cause the guy's name is Tim Leatherman.
Yeah.

That's the perfect name for the knife and his name is Tim Leatherman.
Uh there you go.
We're gonna take a quick break, but when we come back, another collar, another question, and another round of advice.
I'm Guy Raw, stick around, you're listening to the advice line on how I built this lab.
Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz, and my guest today is John Zimmer, co-founder of Lift, and we are taking your calls.
And we are ready for our next caller. Hello, welcome to the Advice Liner. I'm with John Zimmer, co-founder of Lift. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.
Hi, I'm Terry Levy. I am calling from Los Angeles, California, and I'm the founder of Ruckstar. We are a company that is trying to make rocking accessible to everyone, especially women, by designing weighted weighted.
that people can incorporate into their daily activities and get stronger with every step.
I love it. You said Ruck Star, but it's pr it's spelled R U K S T R. Is it pronounced Ruckstar or Ruckstar?
Ruckstar R
Yeah. Community all called Rockstars. Ruckstars. Okay. I love it. So so these are way to backpacks rucking, right? Awesome.
Great for zone two.
Exercise, you just put like strep one on and then you take a walk and it increases your heart rate.
Tell me how did you get get into this? Yeah, so I've been an athlete my whole life, a runner. Um, John, I know you've been
track star, so um I was too long ago.
Yeah, mine too. Believe it or not, mine too. Um
And as I've aged, I my recovery has taken longer and
About four years ago I discovered rocking and I was intrigued by it, looking for something.
to kind of level up my daily walks. I was doing a lot of walking and hiking and not running as much.
and started building my own packs.
Did extensive market research to see what products they were out there.
and found that the products out there were not necessarily designed for women or the everyday women.
And the benefits of actually
weighte walking um are really incredible for women.
Um, so I decided that I was gonna start building my own packs.
Wow.
That's awesome. And and so um
I I've got weighted vests and uh and I'm just curious and forgive me, I just don't know, right? Wha how would it be designed different for a woman?
Well, so we first started with the weighted backpack.
And we
Focused on comfort.
Most women don't like to be uncomfortable. Most people don't know how to be uncomfortable. So when people think something is uncomfortable, they immediately assume something's wrong. So we looked at extra padding, we looked at how it's gonna fit on the shoulder blades, the impact that it's gonna have as you carry, we have a removable waistbelt.
Um, adjustability things that are easy for someone to do when they're out on the trail or on a walk.
Soon discovered
That
Women don't like to carry backpacks, so we iterated and um
found actually a commodity item which was a weighted vest and ran a test.
selling weighted vests and we had huge success. So then we designed our own weighted vest.
And now are acquiring customers with weighted vests, but moving them into the backpack. So our backpacks are actually starting to sell now.
Uh and and revenue, can you give us can you give us a sense of what you're what you've done?
Yeah, in the first year we did four hundred K.
That's awesome. Wow. And this is all direct to consumer?
Director Consumerstrapped from our website.
Wow.
That's amazing. Okay. Tell t uh tell us what your question is before we dive in more.
Yeah, so we're we're bootstrapped.
startup as I mentioned and we consistently are selling out of inventory due to demand.
But we have limited capital. The current tariff policies are exacerbating the problem with the uncertainty around our capital needs.
And delivery delays due to related increase
Customs inspections activity.
Um
What strategies of funding options would you recommend so we can front our inventory investment needs?
reliably meet demand and grow sustainably.
All right, Johnson are gonna bring you in. You're looking very trim and fit now that you have not running in the day to day, I must say.
Uh thoughts, questions, comments for Terry?
Uh one um congrats. Uh that's a huge accomplishment in one year to have that type of revenue and and like
І на ласт фікс.
I just keep seeing people walking around the neighborhood with weighted vests. It feels like it's a really good moment. As guys said, zone two is is something a lot of people are talking about.
So I think uh you're off to a fantastic start.
Uh so have you looked into inventory financing or uh like line of credit?
We we have looked into it, um, and we have taken on a little bit of debt.
But
you know, we really need to buy quite a bit of inventory and at the moment, um, there aren't that many um
lines available for invent financing inventory that we have
Found.
Got it.
I've I have a a friend in in New York and I don't know if we can f follow up after, but I can provide maybe their their contact information who
has really specialized in finding
people that are selling on Amazon or or direct to consumer, because it does feel like in uh in many cases a business like yours
has these financing and it and it was an unmet need and he's done very well. I'm actually an investor in his credit fund, which does this kind of thing.
Um
And even John, I think like Shopify does this and I mean there's some big companies that that have versions of this.
Yeah, we we took out um debt from Shopify.
Oh, great.
So we took advantage of that for sure. Um, like I said, the demand is outpacing the inventory and we're kinda uh
Like
we would have been further along in in revenue.
But we keep selling out, so we've sold out, I think, five times.
In the past year.
Um, just we cannot just bring enough inventory in, and that's the biggest issue.
Well, I mean this is a phenomenal problem.
to have uh but understand you can you can go bigger if you solve it. I think like like I said, there's
There are these solutions. Sounds like you've already used Shopify. I think there are more parties out there I would keep keep searching. And then you can go to more of a a friends and family approach where
You look at the type of terms that Shopify was offering because things are going well, because you have momentum, you're starting to get the data on
how much working capital you need to fulfill orders, what you predict demand will be in Q four.
I think there should be other people that are excited to to help support that.
Definitely. I mean that's a good idea to use the Shopify terms to kind of go out and then establish, you know, what people will get in return.
Can I can I address the tariff question for a moment? Where are you making them now? Where are they made?
Um, we're importing from China and Pakistan.
And I I think well p China right now I think is is is okay, right? Um but I wonder whether, just you know, to kinda hedge your bets, is it worth exploring
Like M Mexico, for example, or even I don't even know if they can be I'm sure there's some m U S manufacturing the prices will be higher, costs will be higher, but m is Mexico something worth exploring?
I mean definitely for our weighted backpacks, we kinda went down that road and looked into it. Um
there just is isn't the skill set there just yet to do what we need and then also um
as far as the way it vests, it's the raw materials. The raw materials are the challenging part.
Um they're tiny little iron pellets.
And I've even spoken with manufacturers in the US that manufacture like
frying pans or anything like to see if they have remnants that we can kind of figure out how to turn those iron remnants into iron pellets. And it's it's it's literally impossible.
Are you able to do pre orders where people pay in advance? And and is that something you've tried?
Y I so I'm kinda have a moral dilemma with that. I am by trade a digital marketer and I just feel like pre-orders
Um
I don't know, it's somet sets you up for failure down the line. It's my own personal issue, but what do you think about that? Should we take pre order? It's customer finance inventory, basically.
I don't know what you think, John. I I don't I don't know. If people want it, they're gonna buy it and and it's it's not
I'd say it's not ideal for a customer, but it's better than
Uh spending
Whatever the the cost is of the capital.
Um
And you can build fans. I love the way you talked about the community as rock star rock stars
And
I think use it as one of your community building. Tell them your story. You know, bring them in on the journey.
Um and and maybe they get a a a small discount.
Think about how much you would be paying the bank.
To do that credit financing.
Why don't we pass that to the customers? That's right, a small discount on a pre order. Pre order it's gonna be five percent cheaper.
I guess it's all about like positioning and marketing when it comes down to it, right? How are you gonna position and market it.'Cause
as a digital marketer, when when you take pre-orders, I feel like you need to be able to let them know when they're gonna get the expectation of when they're gonna get their product.
Um
I like that it makes you uncomfortable'cause it shows you care a lot about the customer.
Um
The thing yeah, I think I think it's an opportunity if you if you
uh are honest and and explain your story, I think it's a good one.
I mean I'm looking I'm thinking on your website demand is through the roof. We can't keep up with you. We will get these we're getting these out of the door as fast as possible. Sorry for the delay, but if you pre order it we'll give you five percent discount to s you know, to show our appreciation.
I would order it.
Yeah, definitely. I mean, we we are coming out with a new product and I've been kind of mulling over my head like
Do we just put it up for pre-order as also a test to see whether or not there's really demand and interest for the new product? So you guys have kinda

No, I think like I said, I think it's very exciting. These are good problems to have.
And and congrats.
Thank you. I will definitely want to connect with you to maybe see if your
buddy who has that financing um. You're on LinkedIn probably, John, right? Yep.
All right, hit'em up.
All right, Terry Levy Ruxster is the brand. Uh congrats, thanks for calling in. Good luck.

All right.
Are you doing any wrecking?
I haven't done it, but like I said, it literally in the last week or two I've seen
A ton of people walking around the neighborhood.
uh with with the way to vest. And I was I was surprised. That zone two thing is very it's crazy because
you can still have a conversation and but if you do it for an hour
It actually increases your VO two max over like it has a huge impact, like benefit. I've seen it. It's amazing. Sprints are great too, but if you can like keep in your zone two heart rate for an hour, it's like and that those those weighted vests really help you get there.
Well this this conversation might have put me over the edge.

Alright, we're gonna take another quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller. Stay with us, I'm Guy Roz, and you're listening to the advice line right here on how I built this lab.


Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab.
I'm Guy Roz, and today I'm taking your calls with John Zimmer, co founder of Lift. Uh John, you ready for our next call? Let's go.
All right, let's bring our last caller. Welcome to the Advice Line, you're on with John Zimmer.
Co-founder of Lift, tell us your name where you're calling from and just a line or two about your business, please.
Hey guys, what an honor to I really appreciate your time. My name is Kobe. I am the co-founder of Slow Coco, calling from the Bronx in New York City.
We are a craft chocolate maker. We make chocolate that
nourishes the emotions as much as the taste buds.
For us, that means no more than one to four ingredients, starting always with single origin.
Cacao.
Sourced from folks we know and can visit.
Wow.
All right, welcome to the show, Kobe. So it's Slow Coco.
Four ingredients.
And you've literally

Places where that the where they grow the cacao?
That's right, my sister Tovia, who's my co founder, we were just visiting our farmers that we work with in Guatemala.
earlier this year.
These are often indigenous communities that have been harvesting for generations and to be able to share
our chocolate with the folks that are making it possible on the ground is a real
Important part of the work we do.
When did you start this business?
We've been in business just over four and a half years.
And and what was the impetus? Were you in food or chocolate or confections or w like what were you doing before, yeah, I wish I had some background in the industry. I'm I joke that I'm a recovering real estate agent.
For me it was uh
uh opportunity during the pandemic to
continue in this hobby of making chocolate at home.
Following the curiosity of
How is this food that I grew up with from such a young age, how is it made?
And the opportunity to make it from scratch became
Addictive in in many ways. When you say you made it from scratch at home, you were l literally like roasting beans and grinding them and or were you buying pre you know just chocolate bars and melting it down and putting it into molds.
I bought a
kilo of beans off of Amazon. Peru. That was it.
And I remember thinking to myself, this'll be the best batch of chocolate I've ever tried. Yeah. This is the first time I made it. I roast them exactly. I got special equipment. No, I at at first I did it in the ovens following a special, you know, turning. Yes, eventually I got a small little countertop roaster. Right.
Go through the whole process. I have a studio apartment with a cat. So you know, I covered my dresser at the foot of my bed with tin foil.
going through this process. I make it
Turns out
I couldn't finish the bar. I couldn't share it with anyone. It was awful. So that started me on the journey of all right, what went wrong? And and how how how does craft chocolate actually deliver the flavor complexity that got me hooked.
Wow, so clearly eventually you figured out how to do this and and w and you decided I mean it sounds like
already back during the pandemic you decided you want to start a business.
I think I was
one foot out the door with real estate in the sense that
As soon as I discovered a space.
That was not
gatekeeping in the way that I had learned to experience
the capitalism that that surrounds me that was interested in elevating the industry for everyone's sake.
That that stood out to me. So I I I was learning to do it, not from classes, I was learning from folks who
in theory should be my competitors.
They were connecting me with the original farms that we were partnering with. They were there when I had specific questions.
And to this day, there is definitely an eagerness and a drive within this industry to move us all forward, but the reasons are different. It's for the sake of the folks on the ground at Origins to improve the livelihood of folks who are making chocolate possible.
For the sake of environmental conditions that are totally neglected and externalized in the cost of industrial product chocolate products, rather than for the sake of individual gain and profit.
All right, I don't wanna rain on the parade. I'm just saying that what if you don't care about that, you just want good chocolate.
And again, I respect that right there. Just saying, Well, you just want good chocolate. Yes. Like you it's a business too, you gotta make money. How is the how is the business doing?
Uh we're doing great. Yeah, I appreciate that. We've been over more than doubling in size since we started. We only sell at farmers markets in the local dry state.
uh area, New York, New Jersey. New Jersey and Connecticut. Although we haven't yet entered into Connecticut, yes. Okay. And we have our online store as well. F for folks like that you mentioned, and that's a majority of our customers, I would say, who are not necessarily interested to hear about this whole backstory.
They just want to know, hey.
Does this taste good?
To that.
We
We love embracing that community because that's what this is all about. At the end of the day, it shouldn't matter where it's coming from.
Kobe.
Tell us uh your question before we dive in.
My question is about
Work life balance.
And I don't think I need more strategies for delegation or time management. I've read
I listen to the podcasts. I have coaches and therapy and uh
Support system.
I have the strategies, but I also care so deeply about my team and slow cocoa.
That I don't always want
to turn it off.
I don't always want to step away.
Even as sometimes my health or my relationships
Get sideline in the process. So
How do I practice
Personal sustainability.
when what I'm building feels like my life's work.
All right. I'm glad you brought this question. Okay. John Zimber
Slow Coco, Kobe is sounds like he's
Dealing with some of the things that
you dealt with when you're running lift.
Yeah.
Totally. I can I can relate, but I think, you know, the way to frame it for yourself is
maybe you can help more when you when you when you do take care of yourself. And I think that
I mean that is true.
Uh if you are not uh taking care of yourself first.
uh then all those people that you care about I think will be
Less cared for by you.
And so that that is step one. I remember one day
Uh my co founder Logan
Uh, and I were talking and I said, like the thing that works so well for me
Is when I work out before work.
But I just never you know, the same kind of thing. You feel like I just wanna put in a little more work or I just wanna get right to the office, or we have co workers that are already in and I wanna be there for them.
And he was like, Make it your priority.
Make it the first thing you do. I don't wanna see you.
uh until you've worked out. And it was helpful for me. It was almost like giving me permission, uh, which
Uh I didn't need in practice, but I think I needed in in words. And so I think
I think you need to do the same thing.
Uh, if you really do care about those other people, then take care of yourself first.
Yeah, Kobe, I'm curious, how many uh employees do you have right now, full time employees?
We have three full time.
We're higher than
That includes myself, correct? Yep.
And that will also include our first
uh non contractor full time employee starting
Starting next month.
And we have ten a total of ten, including the rest of our team. And that's people who are working the farmers markets and and things like that. So are you when you say you are just
uh grinding all the time. Are you like roasting the chocolate beans? Are you like what are you tell me a little bit about what that means.
Yeah, this is where it gets tricky because
we've really invested in the systems that allow me to not be making chocolate primarily anymore. So I'm involved in quality control, recipe development and sales, which is what I love doing, being out at the farmer's market connecting with folks.
At the same time it it's only highlighted the problem even more so, which is
The system might be there to allow me to step away.
But
Part of me, maybe as an entrepreneur, believes I can have it all, that I can step away.
That my relationships can be there to support me.
Even as I am
Always just
Thinking about it. This is just the air that I breathe. And I love that about me and about the business, that that it's around me and always percolating.
And I think those closest to me appreciate that too, but there is dissonance that I'm not always so self aware about in practice.
John, you know, this reminds me of something, and I'm gonna I'm gonna r r remind you of some of a conversation we had a few years ago. Um
But Kobe
I I mean you
You
have to believe that your business is better when you are better.
Once you accept and understand that
Then you can start to figure out the
the the logistics, like the actual tactics that you have to do. And I the reason why I I say I I I alluded to something that a conversation John and I had years ago is because
I think
This is a simple hack that has really helped me.
Right, you have to decide that you are going to do the things you need to do.
Every day?
to enable you to function well. And one of the things I made a decision uh to do was to
Brick my phone. And d I I know many years ago, John, you invested in a light phone. Yep. That phone and I have one. It's a phone that's not really it doesn't allow you to get distracted. It just makes calls and right. I didn't end up using it that much, but I I brick my I have a device called a brick. It's literally you it's a magnet on my fridge.
And I swipe my phone over it and it locks out
everything on my phone. I can pick up to I think twenty apps and really twenty apps is nothing if you think about it. It's like weather
Or the maps app. So I can't
Check email. I can't do anything until I work out.
And I, you know, have some sunshine and then I start my day. And there are some, you know, maybe there's some days where people are like, Where were you? Where are you? But I have to do it.
And at the end of the day.
I'm much better. I perform and operate much better.
Right. Do you is there vr is there like a version of that that you do, John?
Yeah, yeah. F first step is
Uh take the phone out of your bedroom if it's still there. Like I I just have a rule, you know, I got an alarm clock. It's like a shocking, a shockingly obvious thing. Yeah. Uh but a lot of people I'm reminded because I did that many years ago, like when people say, Yeah, you know, I first I first I gotta get an alarm clock, and it's like okay, that's step one. No cell phones in the in the bedroom.
Uh sleep is so so critical.
Um and it's tempting when it's there and you get an alert or whatever.
Uh so my my path was alarm clock to brick and now uh f lightphone three, their third device.
Uh I'm
I'm using as my it's my only phone that has a SIM card.
So wow, you don't you don't have a smartphone at all.
I do have my iPhone.
That I took the SIM card out of because
I was in Europe at the time and they have removable SIM cards, which was helpful. Uh and I I tether from the lightphone to the iPhone if there's an app
Uh function that I need.
Uh but I can easily just walk out of the house with only my light phone. Yeah, it's great. So I think that's just a simple hack, and I don't know if you have your phone in your room when you go to sleep or
Or if it's the first thing you check is it the first thing you check in the morning?
Some days it is only because I have to wake up so early for the farmers markets on the weekend that that blue light actually can help knock me out of it. Uh a little sleep inertia.
But on those off days I definitely try to sleep in and make sure there's time away from the screen.
Before starting my day.
Kobe, what do you want this business to be? I mean, uh I cause there are you can go in a number of different directions and there's no bad answer, right? Like
You can have an incredible lifestyle.
And and this can be a million dollar year business and you could have a few employees and have an incredible
You know, g got the farmers markets going, you got your D to C
And and that could be a great or or do you want it to be a ten or fifteen or
fifty million dollar business or more.
It's not the number so much or the size as the
the impact that for me, I know that's an easy word to throw around. I I I wanna build uh something that eventually I can sell to its employees.
That I want the workers to own.
that I want to be able to exist for generations that that
that touches folks' lives across continents, uh all stakeholders in the entire value of supply chain.
And and to me that that does entail some scale.
Uh uh from studying other worker owned co ops, there does need to be some scale element to that for sure.
So I think that is definitely part of the drive that that I'm testing the limits of. I have some thoughts on that, but I want to bring in John.
I think scale really matters.
You know, you're very
Purpose driven.
Well
Like the bigger it is, the more the more purpose.
There is to go around.
And so for me
You know, we're looking at
Capitalism is
You know, if we apply it to the right things and it looks like the way you're doing it.
uh can be very helpful to many people and give delight in the product.
Then I think
You know, depending on what's right for you.
Bigger is better in this case.
Because of the purpose.
Yeah, I am a big f support of capitalism. This show supports capitalism because I think it is the the least of the worst options out there. I think it it it does lift people out of power, does a lot of g good and b bad, yes, but I think in general on balance, it's it's a better than worse system. Here's the thing I would say.
Sounds like you wanna build something with purpose, right? You're motivated by purpose.
And you talked about one day maybe trying to sell this to your employees. Well, why don't you start now? I mean, you can build an ESOP, right? An employee.
ownership plan into your business now. You can start to create that mechanism now.
you can uh start to give shares to your two employees now.
And I mean New Belgium did this at the beginning. New Belgium, you know, that makes fat tire beer.
and eventually became a hundred percent employee owned. Bob's red mill.
Yeah, hundred percent employee owned.
Uh Cliff Bar, I think it was forty percent employee owned.
A lot of these brands built that into their
a company when they were just like, you know, a five hundred thousand dollar company.
when they were doing like peanuts compared to what they eventually became. So
It seems to me like
Yeah the issue isn't
I mean it sounds like there's definitely some burnout, but when you're building something with purpose, then you also have other people who are stakeholders, who are also owners, who then take on some of those burdens and some of those stresses and pressures.
That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, and I I I love those those episodes that you've done with those brands you named.
I would love to start it today and you're right to ask why not. I I
I'm also wary of passing on risk.
Prematurely.
To folks who have not necessarily consented or opted into that when they were looking for a steady job and something that they can feel good about and go home and turn off.
In ways that I yet I haven't yet figured out for myself.
I agree with Guy. Capitalism is the best system we have.
Uh ownership is a great idea. You can start it now.
You know.
If you're too worried about them taking on some of the stress you have.
uh then they don't get to maybe ride in in that upside. And so
Um
Obviously they can't put in
their own capital or a lot of their own capital. We did something at IPO
Uh we recreated a system for drivers to get equity. I think it's I think it's a really
Really important thing to look at based on your purpose and mission.
That makes sense. Yeah, but we do offer a profit share on a quarterly basis. So as especially for folks folks that are selling at farmers markets. So any profit from their sales, we deliver a percentage of that back to them.
on a quarterly basis. And that at least protects them from the downside while guaranteeing that our growth is tied in
with their success as well.
That's great. Well the best thing you could do again, Kobe, you you run your business as you want to run it. I think the best thing you could do is to make a profitable business that's ethical.
And a business that employs people and allows people to pay for college and for mortgages, like that is the best possible thing.
an entrepreneur can do.
Right. How many John, how many I can't even imagine how many uh college tuitions and mortgages were paid because of Lyft.
Yeah. There were uh I think it was
When I was leaving like three percent of the US workforce had had
Earned on lift.
And
uh when I was having those hard days, just reading those stories of of of that kind of thing. Someone being able to pay for college is super motivating.
Um
So yeah, let that be your fuel.
Let it be your fuel. Kobe Goodwin. Uh the brand is called Slow Coco. Thanks for calling in, man. Good luck. Thank you both. This is huge, huge insights. I appreciate it.
Nice to meet you.
So, John, I
I have asked every founder who comes on the show the a version of the same question. We've talked a little bit about this already, but I'm I'm curious, like now
when you look back on on where you were, right? When you were Zim Ride into starting lift and and if you
If you knew what you know now.
Yeah. Right, which it would make the journey less meaningful, probably. But if you did and you go back in time and say, Hey John, I know this stuff. I'm gonna tell you something that's gonna help you.
Is there something you would tell
Him.
Back then.
Yeah, just
You know, I don't live with a lot of regret, so uh and maybe it's an entrepreneur thing, I just like to keep going and learning and
But but like
Enjoy it's so cliche, but enjoy the journey.
I mean all those hard times and they were very hard.
have you know made me
A better
entrepreneur a better parent
A better husband.
and and a more empathetic human and so
There's value in it all. One of my friends early on said something like that to me. He said, Rem don't forget that this is not just about
Whatever you define as success, this is about learning. And it it it really I would go back to that, even though it's such a simple
thing it was I I
It helped.
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure. John, thanks so much for coming back on the show, man. Thank you. It's always fun.
That's John Zimmer, co-founder of Lift, and by the way, if you haven't heard the Lift episode, go back and check it out. It's an awesome story, and here's one of my favorite moments from that episode.
One of the kind of funny things we had to figure out was how to quickly to the college campus. And so
One of our early purchases was
A frog in beav costume.
That we uh
put on I I went to Cornell. I was actually going to Cornell on a recruiting trip for Lehman.
And
I was uh standing
On the quad.
In this ridiculous costume handing out cards about this carpooling service, is this a frog costume or the beaver costume?
I was the beaver. You were the beaver, okay.
And
at the next day at the Lehman recruiting event, a girl came up to me and said,
Did I see you in a in a beaver costume yesterday?
Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. And by the way, please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free at guyros.com or on Substack.
And of course, if you are working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one-minute message that tells us a little bit about your business and the questions or issues that you're currently facing, because we would love to try and help you solve them. You can send us a voice memo at hibt at id.wondery.com.
or call us at 1-800-433-1298.
Leave a message there and make sure to tell us how to reach you, and we'll put all of this information in the podcast description as well.
This episode was produced by Chris Massini with music composed by Ramteen Arablui. It was edited by Andrea Bruce. Our audio engineer was James Willits.
Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Katherine Cypher, Casey Herman, Carrie Thomson, Nora Gill, Ramel Wood, Sam Paulson, Diva Grant, and Elaine Coates.
I'm Guy Roz, and you've been listening to how I built this.