Advice Line with Ronnen Harary of Spin Master/PAW Patrol

0:01 Before we get into the episode, thanks to our presenting sponsor, Anthropic, they make Claude an AI built for the problems that take real thinking. research, strategy, planning, and making sense of a lot of moving pieces. Give it a try, for the next thing you can't quite stop turning over in your head. For problems worth solving, get started with Claude at Claude.ai slash H I B T. Hello and welcome to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show.

0:47 who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Leave us a one minute message that tells about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. All right, let's get to it. Joining me this week is Ronan Harari, co-founder of Spin Master, which started out as a toy company back in 1994 and has since gone on to become a multinational. multimedia entertainment empire Spinmaster is the company behind the mega hit franchise Paw Patrol, as well as Airhog's Bakugan, and so many more toys, including Rubik's Cubes now. Ronan, it's so great to have you back on the show. Oh great to be here, Guy.

1:32 Thanks for having me on. So you were first on the show back in twenty twenty one. When of course you told me the story of Spin Master, which we will put a link to in the show notes, and I know I always say this, but it is a phenomenal episode. You've got to listen to this one. Thank you. Um Renan before I I we get to our callers, I was just love to get an update from you since since you were last on. You were At that time I think you'd recently transitioned from being

1:55 co CEO of Spin Master, which you've done for like twenty five years. to becoming chairman of the board. So what what is your involvement with Spin Master? These days. You know, it's uh I'd say I've spent about thirty percent of my time in the business. Um so managing the board and the board of directors and working on special projects.

2:13 Uh, one of the special projects I worked on was getting our uh worldwide AI studio going. Uh so we built that up. So I've been busy doing that. I just finished writing a book. Um so you're getting you know, it's one thing to write a book, it's another thing to like Sell a book?

2:28 Yeah. It's like starting a business. So I almost feel like I'm back in startup mode again. Yeah. Which is kinda nice. Tell me about the book. Full disclosure, I've read the manuscript. It's not a traditional memoir. It's sort of a how to guide, but but directed toward a very specific audience. Tell tell us about it. Yeah, it's called No Experience Necessary. Why betting on yourself in your twenties is the best decision you'll ever make. And it's really a manifesto, um, based on my lived experience about

2:54 Why I think that Your twenties is the best time to start a business if you're so inclined to. And I write about certain things that In your twenties. that accrue to you things like everybody's rooting for you

3:05 The power of not knowing And then I try to help people reframe their thoughts around risk. And luck and equity and control. So that all the benefits from that time can accrue to them. Yeah, it's it's a great

3:17 message. And again, not to say that if you're beyond your twenties, this won't have relevance, but I I think the key argument of the book is A lot of young people, they sort of they they feel like they don't have any advantages, right? Because they're young, they don't they're not taken seriously, they see older people succeeding and doing all these things, but in actual fact, when you're in your twenties, you've got this insatiable hunger and energy. And And you can learn very quickly. You can learn new things very quickly. You're exposed to things that people in their fifties aren't exposed to. So there are massive advantages.

3:50 to being young and starting something young. Yeah, no, exactly. But it's all about the ability to start. And being brave enough to take that step and then all the things that will come your way once you've actually started on that journey. And you can't map that out till you actually start. Awesome. Well congrats on that. I'm sure it's a relief to have that out in the world. Um I wanna switch gears for a sec, Renan, because I remember when you were on the show, one of the things we talked about was how fickle

4:15 the toy businesses because you're dealing with kids. You know, they like something for a few months and then they move on. And the the key is trying to come come up with a multi-generational brand, which is Like the holy grail, really hard. You guys tried to do it and finally you did succeed with Paw Patrol. Um, a lot of the things that you guys built were innovated inside Spin Master. You created these ideas inside of the company. But over time, uh, you know, as you've grown, you've acquired some legacy brands, Etcha Sketch, Rubik's Cube, um, Melissa and Doug, a brand we actually did on the show many, many years ago, we had Melissa and Doug on the show.

4:50 So when you think about a company like Spinmaster. What is what's the balance between Acquiring existing brands and And really Innovating from inside.

5:01 Coming up with the ideas from within. I would say you want at least a a fifty fifty balance. One of the things we did was we took a lot of the earnings that we made from Paw Patrol. And we bought Melissa and Doug. And the reason for that was to have

5:14 The ups and downs. of the toy industry. And Melissa and Doug is a very stable You know.

5:21 Open ended play traditional. Toy line. Yeah. Right. It's like wooden kitchens and kitchens and ice cream makers. Yeah. That gives us a stable recurring revenue. And an incredible brand of which to innovate around. And I think that's the thing that you want in the toy industry is you want those timeless brands that have high awareness among consumers, and then you want to infuse it with innovation. And that's always been our model. And I I would say that we probably over rotated in the last few years since I

5:48 I like to say stepped up from being CO. of the company or CoSEO. where we became too rigid and so our culture was actually starting to shift, which wasn't a good thing for us. And Now we've leaned heavily back into innovation and ideation.

6:04 And then stuff that I was talking about at the beginning. What what can we do around AI to Make sure that we're staying current. Because I would say that the rate of innovation

6:14 Is very high now. And the barriers to entry for people to enter into the toy business or children's entertainment has gone down a lot. So we have to be very, very quick as a company. Yeah, you've got to be right on top of these things'cause I mean it's a basically a a business around building hits. Yeah, and keeping things going, like for example, with Paw Patrol, we have our third movie coming out this August.

6:36 You know, we bring out a new season every year. Um, and within the season there's specials and there's new characters. Um and then with the toy line, we make sure that we keep the toy line super innovative. So we're constantly refreshing everything within The franchise. Um you know, our goal is is paw forever. We started with paw for five, paw for ten.

6:53 And now we're paw forever, we're going into our I think our fourteenth or fifteenth season. And we're We're keeping stuff fresh. All right, Ronan, w uh what do you say? Should we take our first caller? Yeah, let's do it.

7:04 That'd be great. Okay, let's bring in our first caller. Welcome to the advice line. You're on with Ren Harari, co-founder of Spin Master. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business, please. Hi guys, I am Anne Williams. I'm calling from Nashville, Tennessee. I have a business called Yearly Co.

7:21 which is a fine jewelry brand and we specialize in solid 14 carat gold bangles. And these are based on a tradition that was started by my grandparents. So my grandfather gave my grandmother A gold bangle every year of marriage. Wow, awesome. Well thanks for calling in. It's Nashville and and and tell me so you sell Gold bangles, these are

7:40 Bracelets and is that your main product? Yes, so bangles that are custom sized, which um is kind of really our differentiator. We really say it's to tell your story, so could be one for every year of marriage. It could be to celebrate a health journey, a promotion, you know, really whatever.

7:58 speaks to you about your jewelry. But we do probably about eighty percent of our sales are Bengals, and then we have expanded to other just everyday pieces like earrings, bracelets, necklaces, and everything tends to be Everything is solid fourteen carat gold, natural diamonds, um, but we really focus on that wearability factor. We want those special pieces to kind of become a part of everyday life. When did you start the business?

8:21 I started it in twenty sixteen. It's about ten years we're about to celebrate. Congrats. And how did you how did it come about? Were you In in the business before? Um, so no. I had no business being in the jewelry business. I was uh

8:35 A stay at home mom at the time, I had started some other businesses, always had an entrepreneurial spirit. And this is our family tradition. So I decided that I could take a metal smithing class and learn how to make a bangle in my garage. Didn't think it was that hard. It's harder than it looks. Um And then just kind of naturally had this customer base of my family. So started selling them out of my garage, truly just working during nap times. Listened to a lot of how I built this in that garage.

9:02 And really had no plans to like start this huge business, but the marketing, the pieces, the fact that you come back every year for another bangle, it just kinda grew from there. Awesome. Um tell me a little bit about how the business Just doing. Yes, so I'm very proud to say um we did about eleven million dollars in sales last year. Wow. So we have grown rapidly and then kind of hit like a stabilization period, I'd say, over the last couple of years. Wow, congrats. Okay. Thank you. Before we dive in a little bit further, what's your uh question for us?

9:31 Yes, so my question, if you've seen the news, um, cold prices have surged to historic highs in the last twelve to eighteen. So although our order value is up, we've definitely seen a decrease in our order volume. Um so I'm just really trying to figure out how we adapt, you know, whether it's through product pricing or marketing, how we continue to serve that customer that I've been serving for ten years when our material price has just so drastically changed, especially in a short period of time. Yeah, of course. All right, Renan, I wanna bring you in. You you guys also face some challenges with things like tariffs, so you're not, you know

10:07 This is not unusual, right? This is gonna create some challenges. Um Thoughts, questions, ideas for him? Yeah, so First of all, I just want to share that that my late grandmother

10:19 used to wear bangles. Okay. So I just wanna say that when I looking at your website, it just reminded me of my late grandmother. Um That's sweet. I love that. And uh so from a business perspective, I guess what comes to mind for me is like First of all, your geography if you can share with us, you know

10:36 Where do you sell your products? Is it just in the United States? How are your gross margins? And What are your thoughts around other materials? And'cause right now you just do everything with gold, but you don't do anything with other materials.

10:49 That's right. So solid fourteen carat gold has kind of always been a big part of our story. It's what the Bengals were originally made in. It's kind of a material we trust. We you know, pitched our customers because you can wear it for a lifetime. Um we do about 80% of our sales online, about 20% in person. So we have a retail showroom in Nashville. We do trunk shows across the country as well. Um and we have seen like higher AOVs, obviously in person when you're buying, we tend to see that. Um

11:16 And our margin, you know, has been interesting because We have had to change things so rapidly. So we do very clear price increases with our customers when the gold market has these bumps. Um, so over, you know, twenty twenty to twenty twenty four, it was like, Oh, maybe we have to do one. And then in the past two years I think we've done four price increases. And we do give our customers a heads up to order

11:40 Um, but we're we're about two point two five to two two and a half marking up our products. We're not having to mark them up four times like the traditional jewelry markup because we're not wholesaling. Um so it does give a direct to consumer price. We're really excited about that, always and confident in that. That that feels like a integral part of the business. Uh because

12:01 we should, you know, if we were in that traditional markup be charging much more for the products we can sell direct. Right. And you've been able to hold your gross margins as the We have I mean some of our pieces, you know, we've compromised a little bit. So I would say our you know our cost of goods on some of them it's like forty to forty five percent. um and like our original bangle, which is kind of our bestseller and it's the piece that we really rely on.

12:24 I'm constantly kind of pushing back like oh man, if we can just push that volume and you know keep the price like a little bit more reasonable because we're approaching that$700 price point. And that's been the hardest part I think is that it's shocking to a customer to be like wait. Twelve months ago you told me this was, you know, four hundred and forty dollars and now it's six hundred and forty. We don't really do a lot of sales, discounts, things like that. So I I would say that

12:49 generally we're holding those margins pretty strong. We have repeat customers who understand the price of gold, but we've definitely lost this margin of like, Three hundred to five hundred dollar price point customer. Are are there I mean, you obviously you don't want to compromise on the gold and the craftsmanship and the you know the the sizing and all that stuff, right? Um But you mentioned that your existing repeat customers understand, right? They know that the price of gold goes up and they understand that. And so you you're not gonna I'm assuming you're not gonna get into like gold plated lines, right? Or or or like lower quality materials. Maybe, I don't know.

13:23 I mean it's it's crossed my mind for sure. My concern is that part of I think what makes us so special, you know, a gold bangle is not we did not invent it. They're sold by so many retailers. I think our custom sizing and our guarantee that these pieces are solid gold is kind of what sets us apart. Yeah. We're in an interesting part of the jewelry market. We're not Tiffany nor do I ever plan to be, but Now our price points are getting higher. We're doing this, you know, less volume and that that feels great in some ways, but there's just that part of you that wants to like continue to pr provide that product to everybody. You know, there's certain things we can't control, commodities, we just can't control it.

13:57 But what I would s recommend to you is You have so many incredible things going for you. You have this incredible direct to consumer relationship. You don't have to go through retail So you can keep your prices in check, which is so wonderful. Your name

14:11 doesn't have the word gold in your brand. So I think you have the permission. from your consumer base to do other things that are not necessarily gold. And really lean into the creativity of what else that could be. Um and co the price may come down.

14:24 You know, gold has had a reputation of coming down. It's a commodity. So We we don't know. But looks like f from what I see you have the permission to do other things. That aren't necessarily gold. in the jewellery space.

14:36 that people would really care for and and I would lean into that. While the price remains high. Yeah, that's an interesting idea because I I initially was thinking You don't wanna have gold plated stuff. But you know, actually now that I and I still think that, but looking at your website, um, you know, like what else Could you what other materials could you use? And I think

14:58 Maybe maybe keeping the designs, but you're offering different metals in that design. I mean that could be interesting to see what that does because I don't think that's gonna affect the qualitative sort of feel. Of Of your product line.

15:12 Yeah, I think um fine silver is kind of another alternative that we've had people ask about before. We do white gold, which is um kinda gives it a look, but it's still fourteen carat. Yeah. Um but they're things that I consider and um Yeah, that we would be able to offer at a lower price point, obviously. And Even in our concept yearly co of you know pieces like

15:34 silver baby cups or, you know, special frames, things that you're gonna go to year after year, these special milestones in your life, I think there's an opportunity there to expand and um help our customers like meet them at the place they are on those special occasions because we already have that trust and that brand loyalty. you have a s a a strong base of customers, so the question is what else can you sell those customers? And I would t turn lemons into lemonade with a situation where it's like What

15:59 Brand new product line. Bring into the world. That's different to what you're doing now. that can really expand your revenue base. And so it's not necessarily just rethinking

16:09 the materials within the existing product line, but it's really bring forth a whole brand new product line. That's made of other materials that we're going to do. that maybe could be a little bit more contemporary or can can serve a a slightly different market or You know, you're selling fashion at the end of the day. So it's like, you know, what else can people do they want to wear for different occasions that you can provide to them? Yeah.

16:28 Awesome. Um Anne Williams, the brand is called Yearly Co. Uh good luck. Thanks for calling in. Thank you for having me, appreciate it. Yeah, thank you. Stay with us because after the break, we'll talk to another founder working to take their business to the next level. That's after the break, I'm Guy Roz and you're listening to the advice line right here on how I built this lab.

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18:26 Claude helps you keep moving. For problems worth solving, get started with Claude at Claude.ai slash H I B T. Welcome back to the Vice Line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Roz and today I'm taking your calls with Renan Harari, co-founder of Spin Master, and let's bring in our next caller. Hello. Hey guy, hi Ronin. I'm uh Felix Colan. I'm calling from Martha's Vineyard where my Family runs Island B Company.

19:02 We're an APR run by three generations of my family. We produce raw honey. But our most popular product is high five. Which is a moisturizer made with Five ingredients all straight from the hive.

19:15 Well, thank you for calling in. If you look so this is a family run, family owned bee company. You make honey and uh skin care uh products and sell them mainly uh on Martha's Vineyard? Yeah, so predominantly on Martha's Vineyard through farmers markets and um local stores Um we also recently started selling online.

19:36 But that's only been in the past. Three to four years. Great. Okay, so you're this was started by your parents, you said? Yeah, so it was started by my parents in nineteen ninety nine. Um I work for the business part time right now. My goal is to take it over and to grow it into something meaningful. I

19:55 You know, have been seeing this business throughout my childhood and I've always been thinking of Yeah. new things to do on this side and that side, and I think that I've w wanted to start a company and then you know, I look And right there before my eyes is one that's small with a lot of potential. And I think that yeah, it feels right.

20:11 What are the what are your best sellers? Yeah, so the best sellers are are honey, of course. The worry there is that it's not a very scalable product. You know, it's heavy. Hard ship. And our production capacity is limited.

20:23 Our most popular product is uh hive five, which is a skin moisturizer with five ingredients from the hive: raw honey, beeswax, propolis. pollen and royal jelly. Um, which is a proprietary formula that my Mom created and it is patented. Um And that's our that's about our best selling product um right now.

20:44 And we also, you know, sell candles and other kind of gift oriented things, but the skincare product is kind of our our bestseller there. Cool. All right, lots of potential here. What's your question for us? Yeah, so for twenty seven years the businesses stayed very small and local. You know, I'm I'm ready to grow it.

21:02 My question is, you know, if In our position, I guess I'm considering focusing on, you know, a more relationship driven business to business channels like corporate gifting or weddings with bigger order sizes. or to kind of go aggressively after more of a direct consumer route like TikTok shop trying to re reach consumers directly. All right. I want to bring in Ronan. Ronan uh Island B company trying to figure out

21:29 What kind of channels to to go with to begin to scale this this business? Thoughts, ideas, questions? Well, first of all, Felix, nice to meet you and uh looking at your products online. They look amazing. And what an incredible opportunity for you to You know, carry your parents

21:44 business forward. I come from consumer products. So this is very close to what I do. So when I heard you at the beginning and you said, you know, honey, you can't scale honey and it's not scalable type stuff, I don't necessarily um Agree with that. I think everything's scalable. Um the question is

22:02 How are you gonna go about doing it? There's so many people that are starting brands from scratch. And it's based on their own personal story. And it's based on them doing innovative marketing. I'm looking at your Instagram.

22:14 And All the things on your Instagram didn't match up. With your beautiful branding of your product. Like there was a there was very much a disconnect there. So

22:23 For me I I'd be working on social media. The storytelling. Amplification of the brand. You know, TikTok shop is great. It's a great place to go. It's it's certainly increasing.

22:34 But the question is like how do you tell that story and how do you tell that story in in a way that's gonna resonate with the consumers. So I I'll pass it back to you. Where are you on that journey and What do you want this business to be? Yeah, of course. I mean I something that

22:47 kinda kicked me on this journey eventually was actually listening to the episode with Roxanne Quimby at Birds Bees. Um and that that really inspired me to kind of see things on a bit of a bigger scale. But also I I think that we have an opportunity You know, being An Apiary on Martha's Vineyard to kind of play up.

23:06 The the more premium. Aspects of of the business. Like for instance, Tate's Cookies. I think that's one of the the companies that I I'd like to emulate a little bit. Found it in like a East coast, um kind of summer hamlet area and kind of trying to tie um that that premium aspect.

23:25 into to the brand as well. You know, I think you've got uh a lot going for you, as you say, with Martha's Vineyard, right? Because the Martha's Vineyard evokes premium, it evokes the summer quality, um artisanal I have a slightly different take on on TikTok than Ronin. I agree that you want to really use those channels to build your story, but I wouldn't actually Um push selling this on Instagram right away only because in Rund you may have a different view.

23:55 If it if if something hits on Instagram That can create Operational chaos. Just let's just say, I mean it would be a an amazing problem to have, but a huge problem to have. What's your your annual revenue right now? Between a hundred and fifty and two hundred thousand? Okay, so one hundred and fifty, two hundred just you're still small.

24:12 And if all of a sudden you're getting endless orders, it's gonna be really hard for you to handle that kind of that kind of chaos. I mean I think you have an opportunity right now to look at things like B to B. Right. I mean you've got a a really special clientele coming to Martha's Vineyard. Those are the people who are gonna see your product. And this is what happened with Sunbom. Sunbom was selling in small boutiques in Hawaii.

24:37 And that's how it exploded over time because you had hype, you know, sort of affluent customers coming buying this and then seeing it and then wanting it to be uh on the mainland. I think that you have an opportunity For sure to try and build out a B to B business initially. Corporate like corporate gifting. Luxury hotels?

24:55 partnerships with other artisanal brands on Martha's Vineyard, the best known I think is Black Dog, probably. maybe weddings, there's a lot of weddings at Martha's Vineyard. I mean, I would really start there and test that out. And and really get your ducks in a row. before you go all in on on you know social media. Again, it would be great, but it could also create problems. Yeah, no, that that makes a lot of sense. And I think

25:20 You know that's something that me and my parents were were scared of if kind of something did come to pass where a video did Blow up, you know, it's it still is. produced Bye, my mom.

25:30 myself and and my my father, so It would be ca operational chaos. Um, I c I completely understand that and building the foundation there. with the corporate gifting and and weddings could be an easier way to figure out how to scale operationally before going to those Other channels. Yeah.

25:47 Brennan, any thoughts? I I respectfully disagree with my host. Great. Excellent. I love that. I respectfully disagree with them. I think that's a good thing. Um, first of all, it's very hard to just, you know, blow up on Instagram like today you have to be super unique, super different. You have to do a lot of work. To make that happen.

26:04 But I just think that's where the eyeballs are. And you compared yourself to Bert Bees at the beginning. That's a big company. So the question is like What what do you want to aspire to be? You know, if you want to build a five million dollar business. Then you can

26:16 Take take guys path, but if you want to build a business that's twenty million, thirty million, fifty million, a hundred million dollars. I think you gotta take a different path. I'm not a big fan of the whole corporate gifting stu side of things'cause it's very It's transactional. You have it one year, it doesn't stay the next year, it's it comes and goes almost like the service business.

26:33 But you have a consumer product, so the question is like The people love the consumer product. And will they buy it and will they repeat the purchases? That's the most important thing with consumer products is repeating the purchase. And so you want to be in a place where people can actually buy it on a regular basis. So if you want it to go slower to to to Guy's point, maybe take a bit of a different path. And start to get

26:54 uh distributors and go to the gift shows and go to the food shows and start to get your product in retail. And build it out slowly. And then see whether or not You have the POS, the point of sale, to support Your products.

27:08 Maybe you start with Murcia Vinard and you and you go outwards across the east coast, right? And then you and then you go across the country. But I would just build it chunk by chunk. distributor by distributor. retail shop by retail shop. And while you're doing that, I would be building your social media story on a very consistent basis so that you can have that opportunity to To blow up and

27:28 And and fill the orders. If that's if that's what you want it become. So like maybe I'll pass back to you, like What's your dream? What do you want this to be for yourself? In five or ten years from now. Yeah, I mean I it's not a business that I'm looking to to sell or you know, I I want it to continue to be a family business. Um

27:47 And I think that long term thinking is is very important t to me and I think it's been important to the business as a whole. So I think that Um scaling at a sustainable pace. Um That doesn't

28:00 create fra fractions between my parents and I, but also Justin. you know, grow too f'cause I I think that happens a lot with consumer brands where they grow too fast. to support themselves and then it it kind of crashes and I think that So I I I wanna avoid that at all costs.

28:16 I I I wouldn't avoid you to to have that type of thinking. Mm-hmm. Because I think you can you If

28:24 You you can scale as much as you As you want to scale. If that's what you want to do. The question is if you want to do it. Right. So I wouldn't put it out there as in like that will be

28:34 You know. The limiter. And the thing that I'm that I'm nervous of happening. Yes. Yeah.

28:40 I gotta say I like Ronin's advice. I still think it's slow and steady. But I do agree. I mean trade shows, I mean you're gonna have to really kinda hit the ground running. looking at a brand like Birchby's and and sort of figuring out what your path in is is a really smart way to go about it. Uh but there's a lot of there's a lot of legwork you need to do and a lot of storytelling you need to do. Yeah.

29:01 Yeah, no that makes sense. Well Thank you both. I I really appreciate the advice. Th there's so many ideas but I I it'll it gives me a lot to to think about and consider. Awesome. Well good luck, uh Felix. Uh the brand is called Island B Company. Let us know how it goes.

29:16 So excited for you. Enjoy the journey. Yeah. Thank you guys. All right, we're gonna take a quick break, but we'll be right back with another collar and another round of advice. Stay with us, I'm Guy Roz, and you're listening to the advice line right here on how I built this lab. Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz, and my guest today is Renan Harari, co-founder of Spin Master. And Renan, are you ready for our next call? Yeah, that'd be great. Alright, let's bring in our next caller. Welcome to the advice line. You're on with Vernon Harari, founder of Spin Master. Tell us your name where you're calling from and a little bit about your business.

30:07 Sure, my name is Matt Smith. I'm calling from Beverly, Massachusetts, and I own uh Wandering Soul Beer, which is a craft beer project. As well as Hidden Path Brew. which is a non alcoholic Beverage brand. Awesome. Tell us a little bit about it.

30:23 Sure. So um Yeah, I've been in the beer industry for about fifteen years or so. Um working for some other breweries and did a lot of home brewing. And um Went through a

30:36 personal, you know, life thing in uh twenty seventeen actually. My wife was full term in her pregnancy and um There were complications and Our uh first daughter was still born. Hm. Um

30:49 Yeah, her name was Melody, and after that happened I had to really stop everything I was doing. Um it was a formative Time for me. And I had been working on a recipe for a beer. Uh you know, five percent New England style h hazy pale ale, very Sessionable drinkable beer.

31:06 And um I wanted to release that beer out into the world, um, and call it Melody Maker. And um with the connections I had we sold the first Batch and um The store's all sold out. And uh we did it again and the stores all sold out.

31:21 And from that point it was like okay, I think There might be something to this. So that's kind of how it started, obviously very personal. And it's great to great to be here, by the way. I should have led with that. Yeah, well thanks for thanks for coming on. Um tell me a little bit about about the business. Where do you sell a beer? You if you've got a a brewery, uh do people go buy it there primarily, are they buying it in stores?

31:41 Yeah, so I don't have a tap room. Um I don't have a place for people to come drink the beer. It's basically You know, I'm brewing at several different New England area breweries and then when the beer's ready

31:54 It goes to the stores and restaurants here in Massachusetts as well as um New Hampshire, Connecticut, New York. And uh I was delivering everything myself. For about seven years. And uh

32:08 got to the point where I just signed with a distributor'cause I just couldn't really manage those deliveries anymore. And and how uh give us a sense of your your sales last year. Yeah, last year um sales were around a hundred and fifty Thousand.

32:21 Uh really my best year was Covid. Well twenty twenty was my best year. Did almost uh half a million in sales. Uh, everybody was just drinking at home. But uh it's fluctuated a lot. Actually shut the whole thing down at the end of twenty twenty two. 'Cause I had reached a point with it where I felt like I accomplished what I wanted to. I had a legacy for my daughter and

32:42 There was a lot of healing that occurred. And uh I wanted to kinda go out on a good note. So I ended the whole business and then it came back the next year. Uh when people kept asking me, Are you ever gonna make beer again? And I woke up one day and said if one person

32:57 asked me that today, I'm gonna bring this thing back and it came back. Yeah. And and before we dive in further, uh what's your question? Basically the question is, you know, in a saturated industry, how do I maintain my identity in in terms of releasing beers dedicated to concepts and people? It's beer's supposed to be fun and happy and you know what I mean? Um

33:16 And you know, ha maintaining that identity without having it kinda swallow me whole like it did at the end of uh twenty twenty two. Got it. So you're trying to figure out how do you run a business. But you also have a separate

33:30 Life, identity outside of that. Yeah, yeah, and especially for something so personal. It's sort of a grief project. It's like where's the separation? You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Interesting interesting question. Renan. Um I mean A lot of founders on the show will say that it's everything, right? Their b businesses, their identity. You uh I mean you stepped away from your business running it day to day. So you have experienced going from

33:56 this being everything you do all the time. to kind of having one foot in, but also being able to do other things. So w what do you think? What's I mean Is is it it's possible to do it, right? It's it's possible, but I Matt, nice to meet you it's

34:10 I I feel you. It's very difficult. I'm just curious, well, can you share with us just like what's what's your average day like The work. Do you talk about the work? Do you talk about it with your

34:22 people around you, your loved ones, your family, your friends. Are you able to compartmentalize? Yeah, I think that that's been a challenge compartmentalizing. Every day's different. Um th my days were spent in a van delivering beer. Most days.

34:36 Now that I have a distributor, they're doing a lot of that work. So mostly it's selling the beer, reaching out to the beer buyers at the different stores and restaurants, hey, we have this new beer, and coming up with The new labels and the recipes. A lot of marketing type work, a lot of social media. Um but it it really varies. And are you doing everything from home or do you have an office?

34:57 Everything is done here from home. There's an office in my home, but uh Yeah. I would say the first thing I would recommend you do Is get an office. It doesn't matter where it is, doesn't matter w what it looks like.

35:09 But I wouldn't work I wouldn't be working from home. because you can't compartmentalize when your when your business is in your home. And so there's something very nice about leaving the house. Picking up your coffee, meeting people along the way, going to work and

35:23 Interacting. And do you have employees? Do you have people that are working with you? No, it's just me. Okay. So may is there any shared workspace that's close by? Yeah, there are some.

35:33 Places where uh I could go to do that for sure. I I sometimes go to a coffee shop, but Yeah, I I I would I would recommend you go to a shared workspace where people are working and that's what they're doing and they're they're in the business mode. And I think they'll get a lot of benefits. from that in terms of like relationships, connections, understanding what other people are doing.

35:51 Staying current. And uh That's what I do. I mean I'm I'm a Ten to six or Back in the day, I go into the office, I do all my meetings, they're back to back. In in like thirty years, I've taken like five lunches. Eat them at my desk, I do everything in the office. But then when I leave the office

36:08 I know it's my time. At the end of the day. And the other thing that I do is is uh I don't talk about work to my friends or my family.

36:16 Um, I just don't do it. And it's just like It's just a strike that I have. I just actually I actually don't even like doing it. Um but I'm very conscious about it and not like letting it bring come bring it into my life.

36:29 And then it just creates a lot of space for other things and just lets my mind like Take a break at the end of the day. Yeah. Yeah, I I agree. I mean, listen, this is this is tough, right? Because your business is your for for for many of us it's it's it's our lives. uh this is what I do, this is my business, built up productions and and the show and other things we do.

36:48 But I I have to say that it it uh it takes some S. You've gotta make some decisions and choices that are not always easy, but you've gotta Make those decisions and stick with them. So for example, Um there are some non negotiables, right, that you can build into your life. You can say, you know, every morning or or a few times a week, no matter what.

37:09 I am going to take a walk from seven to eight AM. You know, here in Massachusetts, it's freezing cold in times of year, but it's still worth doing. Um You know, I I think and founders I talked to and in my experience Uh I'm very lucky to have a very tight knit group of friends that I see regularly more than once a week.

37:28 It's not easy, not everybody has that. It takes time, effort. I mean even did you grow up in Beverley in that area? I grew up in New Jersey and um w with a group of musicians that We all moved here. And played in a band for a long time. Uh we went on tour and recorded albums on

37:46 Still in the music community, a lot of my friends are musicians or in the beer industry. Yeah. Maybe your musician friends just say, Hey I'd love for us to just jam. Like

37:55 twice a month. Can we just start that? Let's just like set aside Wednesday night no matter what. And It just you want to start With something that's consistent.

38:06 That gives you um something outside of of of your work because it's critical. It's really important. You know, and it and it it actually makes you better at what you do. I I find. Yeah, no, I I really appreciate that. I think that the times where I've been able to disconnect from this are the those are the times where I kinda come up with some new ideas.

38:24 And um I do understand what you're saying uh running about uh not talking about work with family and friends, I was I I kinda wonder if it was always like that for you or or if you reached a point where you made that a rule. You know, for me I I

38:40 It came by me naturally. Because I I I wasn't it was so in it during the day that I just was so tired when I got back. I didn't have any energy for it. And I really just wanted the diversity

38:52 in my life, I just was so curious about other things. That I found it I found it kinda boring to talk about my business, to be quite honest. I just found it boring. Yeah. For sure. For sure.

39:02 Yeah, I mean again, I think that it starts with deciding that you're gonna protect Sometime consistently every single week. And and take it from there. That yeah, that's great advice. I'm Definitely trying to

39:15 trying to do that and I think that'll allow for enough separation where I'll feel more refreshed coming back. You sound like an incredible human. So I don't think it'll be that difficult for you. I think to just guy's point, you just gotta make the decision. But you got like sounds like you have a really rich life. I'd like to hang out with you. Same here. I appreciate that. Thank you. Thank you very much. Just great advice from you guys. It's been Part is bordering on self help, I know.

39:39 Hey, that's what we're here for, Matt. That's where we're here for that's what the show's here for. Uh, so happy to do it. Um the brand is called Wandering Soul Beer, uh Matt Smith. Thanks for calling in, and good luck. Thank you very much. Renan, before I let you go, um I you know, you've got a lot of advice in this new book, which I think people, especially young people, really get a lot out of. Um

40:00 But uh if you could go back to you when you were and this is kinda what the book is about, right? And and say, Hey Th I know all this stuff'cause I've been in the business now for thirty plus years. I want you to know this. And you go back to yourself and say something like that. Uh, what would you say?

40:17 I would say Don't take everything so seriously. Enjoy the journey. Enjoy the moments. It goes fast. And um

40:27 You really want to be in it and you don't want to be You know. really stressed about it. And even if things take a little longer. Um Give it a little bit more time to breathe. Like you'll eventually get there. But it's more important to actually

40:39 Enjoy the journey. I I remember trips where I'd go to a trade show in Japan and I rush to get home. You know, and now I think about it, I'm like, Why didn't I take an extra two days? I was ready there. Just enjoy the journey, um that's what I would say to myself. Yeah. I think that's great advice. I was a r I remember being a reporter and I'd be sent somewhere and and I would just work, work, work and then I

40:59 I leave and and uh I regret it. So I totally agree. It's great advice. Um, Renan, thank you so much. Guy, thank you for having me on. That was a lot of fun. I hope I didn't I hope I didn't talk too much. No, not all. That's Ronan Harari, co-founder of Spin Master. And by the way, if you haven't heard Ronan's original How I Built This Episode, you've got to go back and check it out. You can find a link to it in the podcast.

41:21 notes uh section and here is one of my favorite moments from that interview. You've basically been profitable every single year, and you've been growing every single year, and then all of a sudden you're not only unprofitable, you're losing a lot of money. Um were you worried about whether you guys are make it? I actually personally myself

41:39 I rise in a crisis. That being said, I mean it The relationship's definitely frayed. Even among the founders. Oh yeah, yeah. Amongst the founders came out, some uh inefficiencies in the business, the way we're organized. This is why older people have gray hair.

41:53 You know, when people say they have grow grey hair from something, like this was our seminal gray hair. event. Yeah, and you have some grey hair. I have a lot of grey hair Thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free at gyros.com. And if you're working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business, the issues, or questions you'd like help with.

42:23 and hopefully we can help you with them. And make sure to tell us how to reach you. You can send us a voice memo at hibt at id.wondery.com Or call us. at one eight hundred four three three three three three three. One two nine eight.

42:39 and leave a message there, and we'll put all this in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Catherine Seifer with music composed by Ramtina Rablui. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Cina Lafredo. Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Carla Estevez, Casey Herman, Carrie Thomson, Chris Massini, JC Howard, Sam Paulson, Niva Grant, and Elaine Coates. I'm Guy Roz and you've been listening to how I built this. One more mention for our presenting sponsor, Anthropic.

43:13 Claude is built for people who like to keep pulling on the thread. The research, the planning, the questions, the follow through all until the work starts to make sense. So try Claude for the next problem worth solving.

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