Advice Line with Scott Tannen of Boll & Branch and Jamie Siminoff of Ring

Transcript from https://podmenti.com/t/6f11a84e792cef4c

Yeah.
Uh
Hello and welcome to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show.
who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Leave us a one minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you like help with.
Alright, let's get to it.
This week I'm joined by two founders, Scott Tannen of Bull and Branch, and Jamie Simenov of Ring back on the advice line. Scott, Jamie, it's great to have both you back on the show.
Thanks for having us. Great to be here.
So, Jamie, you were first on how I built this back in twenty twenty. You've already been on advice line, so you are a double alum. And Scott, uh, you were on the show in twenty twenty-four. And as always, if you guys haven't heard those episodes, we will put a link to them in the show notes. Really great episodes. Jamie
You built the incredible ring doorbell, which is now an entire home security system, uh that you sold to Amazon, and now you are back.
running it. We'll get to that in a sec. And Scott, uh you and your wife Missy
Founded the Bedding and Linens brand, Bull and Branch. It's such an awesome brand. And the reason why we have both of you on the show together, because people are like, why are you having
These two guys is weird. Like
Spitting sheets and and ring systems? Like what is up with that?
Well
It's because both of these guys went to high school together and he they asked if they could come back on together
To do an advice line, right? You guys met in high school.
We did. And Jamie Jamie actually drove me to school. So I've been riding his coattails ever since. Wow.
And and and not only that, I mean it was the class was like sixty kids. So it's just like wild that like this tiny little school in New Jersey and one of the people comes out and is a hugely successful sheets guy. It's incredible. And neither of you guys ha like you would not put your money on either of you guys in high school. You'd be like these are the horses that are gonna win the race.
We were the least two you would have bet on. I think Scott was maybe in the middle, but yeah, we were definitely
Low on the list. Your teachers, Jamie, were like all right, there he is, like taking apart a radio again and like not paying attention.
And Scott, they were like, I don't know how this kid's getting into Vanderbilt. There was no reason I got into Vanderbilt. I I got I I got rejected.
Waitlist and then like they're like nobody else will come. You bet. You like rode and rode and wrote. It's unbelievable.
There's like a really smart Scott Tannen out there that applied to Vanderbilt and they just like miss like they like m like it was like a switch to birth thing. Um but you guys still keep in touch, right?
We do.
Yeah.
And you just had a uh like a
A reunion?
Like a high school union?
Thirtieth, right? Thirtieth. We're that old. Wow. Isn't that crazy? Yeah.
Every time we get together we go to this hole in the wall.
Steak place called Sammy's in Medem, New Jersey. And it is a hole in the wall. Yeah. Uh and every time they end up kicking us out at the end of the night, they're like, All right, you guys were done.
We're done. We're done.
But it's still the same place, like prime ribs and whatever steaks and chops. Oh, it is so good.
Um, before we get to our callers, Jamie, brief update from you. You are
Back in the driver's seat at ring, right?
Yeah.
So you're back running this now bigger organization than it was when you stepped aside, right? I mean it's it's more people and bigger operation. It's about the same as when I I mean it was still pretty big when I stepped aside. So it's about I'd say about the same. But we're
I I mean, we're doing more now. It it's just it's incredible kind of what the business is doing, and especially with AI, what we can impact now is is like really unbelievable.
Yeah. And tell me what some of the the the the ideas or plans or initiatives are. I mean, obviously this is a competitive space, so lots of people in this business ring is is
probably at the top of that list in terms of its its market share, but how do you sort of acquire more customers? Is it is it about price at the end of the day? Is it about
Uh technology, what is it about?
I think you do it by
Earning trust with your customers, they reward us when they buy a product. And so we just came out with a thing called search party.
Which uh my dog, I love my dog to death. If it was missing in the neighborhood, which we get over one million people tell us that their pet is missing in a neighborhood a year.
Now we look on AI through the neighborhood. If we find that dog, it's a guy
This dog looks like this dog in front of your house. Wow. If it's the same dog, would you contact your neighbor?
And you can now put people together to actually find pets and missing pets in neighborhoods, which is like so it's not a but there's no commercial thing. We're not even charging people for it.
But if you do something like that, if you re if you show people that you are better for them, better for their neighborhood, I do think they'll reward us with buying more products, putting more products in, more people will get it. And so to me, it's like if we can build these things using AI to benefit society in a way like that, like
You know helps a family find a pet.
Faster.
Um, it's it's incredible. And so that's I think you win by inventing, by by leading, by you know, truly sort of changing the world, not by
looking in the rear view mirror and trying to
You know, see what a competitor is doing.
Um, Scott, give us an update. When you're last on the show, you uh and Missy, your wife were still you running the the brand, Bollen Branch. I'm assuming you're to tell me what's going on.
Yeah, so Missy's kept me around. Um still married.
We're still we're still married and running the business. The order probably depends on the day. But yeah, we've we've opened we opened seven stores this year. We're gonna open another seven next year. So
Big push into retail and yeah, the business just continues to grow. We're we feel very fortunate. And and where are you opening stores right now? Is this is it mostly East Coast?
Uh it's all over the country. We just opened Bethesda, Maryland last week, but the store before that was in Edina, Minnesota. Um so we we tend to be on the eastern half of the country just from a uh operational logistics standpoint. Um, but as we look at twenty twenty seven, we're gonna hit the west coast. Awesome. Well guys ready to take the first call?
Let's go. All right. Hello, you are on a device line with Scott Tannin and Jamie Simenov.
Tell us your name.
Where you're calling from and just one line about your business, please.
Sure. Hi Guy. Hi Scott. Hi Jamie. I'm so excited to be here today. My name is Melita Cyril. I'm calling from Toronto, Ontario, and Canada.
Uh my business is Q for Quinn. We make high quality socks and underwear.
Made from organic cotton and marina wool, so that they're gentle on our skin and our planet.
Awesome. Well thanks for calling in, Melita. So okay, Q for Quinn.
Tell me a little bit about about this business. How did you when did you start it and and what were you doing at the time?
Sure, I started the business about eight years ago.
My first born, I have three kids now. Uh he was ten months at the time and he suffered from eczema. I was not working, I had a
stressful corporate jobs as a as a derivatives trader and a management consultant, and it was really taking time off and being a mom.
Um, and so when when he had eczema, I researched different fabrics, I found organic cotton onesies, but I couldn't find organic cottons.
And that's when I had the idea to make my own organic cotton socks.
Uh so we started with kids' socks, but as we sort of grew, we added adult socks and underwear.
And we've been growing pretty na nicely in especially in the last few years.
Amazing. And tell me where are you f making the the clothing, for example?
Sure. The socks are made in Portugal and the underwear is made in India.
And you I mean I I understand your son's situation, but like it's
Why did you decide to get into socks and underwear?
So socks was because I couldn't find organic cotton socks, but but once I started doing a lot more research on the textile industry and fabrics, I really learned how dirty the textile industry is.
There's a lot of chemicals in our clothing, especially those made from synthetic fibers.
Um and from the beginning our customers were those with allergies and sensitive skin. But as we as there's more and more research coming out, we're seeing a lot more people switching to natural fibers and seeing a lot more market demand. I think Scott might uh might be seeing this too. And and give us a sense of of your
Sales. Wha w what what what are you guys doing right now?
Sure. So this year we hope to close in mid sit seven figures. Wow. Um in revenue.
Yeah. So
You don't need our help. Maybe you should give us advice.
I'm gonna send you my resume. All right. Uh and before I forget, what tell us your question.
Uh sure. So uh so we've been growing pretty nicely. We've reached mid seven figures, um, we've been profitable and we've been bootstrapping this business. My husband joined me full time this year, so we're also a husband and wife team. But we have three kids and this is our family's income. So
Going forward, I want to do a lot of things. I want to grow faster. I want to really build our market share in a very fast growing market here. So should I can should we continue to bootstrap our business or should we think about
bringing on strategic investors who can help us really provide the money and as well as the advice.
Um to grow even faster and take more market share.

Awesome. Okay, I want to bring in Jamie and Scott guys. Um, first of all
Thoughts, ideas, questions for Melita?
Scott, you're gonna start it off because you might know something about organic cotton. Yeah, I am such a fan, Melita, of what you're doing. Um
Bootstrapping is always gonna be the way that it's best to protect that vision.
Um, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's the way you're gonna grow fastest and and those sorts of things. So I I think that there is
Look, your story is my story.
Um and in fact
I will tell you that I called the Jamie Simenov advice line when I was like right at the same place in the business where we bootstrapped.
We we felt like we we we needed cash because we wanted to grow faster. Uh, and I remember the advice Jamie gave me, which was
Take the cash and take as little as you possibly need so that you can maintain the control. Cause at the end of the day, as soon as you take money from an investor, your number one goal moves from whatever it is today to providing a shareholder return. And there's an expectation from those shareholders that you're going to pick up the phone, you're going to talk to them, and you really don't want someone to say to you,
You know, if we switch to conventional cotton, could we
Expand our margins a little bit.
'Cause the answer is yes, but it's not something you really want to do. And it is your choice still when it's your own business.
Yeah, and that makes a lot of sense. I mean, we are going in the direction of completely like biodegradable, compostable garments. So everything from
You know, I we just started sourcing and launched a new collection with rubber, cotton elastic. So we're doing all the innovation. And it's expensive, but
I think that's how we're different, um, to your point, and that's something I want to maintain as I build this brand.
Yeah, and I I would just I I would just add I mean I think it's um
Taking one dollar, taking a million dollars, taking ten million, it's kind of once you do that, you like you are crossing like a line. Like it is like sort of breaking a barrier. And so I would
be very considerate about that and Scott and I have long talks about it of like
You're gonna take a dollar, you're taking like it's gonna change the business. And so you have to like realize that like that first dollar you take is a big step.
No matter how many dollars it is.
And to Scott's point, whatever the amount is, times it by five or ten, because that's what they want back. So that's really what you're taking. If you take a million dollars, you're really taking ten million because you got to give ten million back. That's what their their expectation is. And that's they are aligned with you. So it's not that all investors are bad. They like you're gonna also be successful if they're successful, but
It is a different pressure and
There is no right answer here. So it's like I'd just be very considerate about like do you would you rather go slower and have a hundred percent control?
Would you rather sort of
Br breach the barrier and have like less control, but
But again, a little bit less stress because trust me, I think both Scott and I can uh
Can tell you we un we totally understand that. I I I know what it's like to have sort of everything in the business.
And nothing in the tank left over, so
Melita, I have a question for you. What what categories would you want to expand out into? Right now you're in underwear and socks, where would you want to go?
So our next more obvious one that we're working on is at leisure. Um because
When you sweat you are
more likely to absorb some of these chemicals. Uh we actually just launched our sports bra and it's been very quite successful.
Um, so that's given us some signals of you know where can we have that intersection between
Undergarments as well as athletic wear.
That's a I like love everything you're doing from my like hearing it because
You are going after these big categories where, by the way, there's not one winner. This is not a winner takes all. Look at Alo. Alo is this massive multi billion dollar company, I think.
Yeah. Like there's Lululemon and it's just sort of just sitting there also. And it's just like all it you can grow so big with and stick to your guns and what you're doing as your mission. I love it.
Is there any scenario or any any kind of
time that it might make sense to
I mean you took it a little later in the
Right.
Yeah, I I did. I mean
I took it at a point where I I continued to fund with debt.
And so it just got to the point where
Missy went to Target and she got approved for a$20 credit limit. I was like, okay, it's probably time to think about this. So we did it from the standpoint of getting ourselves personally out of debt. And we have three kids. I mean, I'm serious, your story is my story. Um and and honestly, we took some off the table at that point, too.
to to help us de risk. So so we felt like
All right, now now we're at a spot where we can with clear heads align with these investors and really go for it.
Because we were worrying about
You know, servicing debt and doing those sorts of things, even though we were profitable.
Right. Yeah, I would say I mean I think there's consensus here that maybe now is not the exact right time, but but w when you can point to
Sort of a
The clearest growth channel.
Right, that's working, that's predictable. I mean
I have to imagine the margin on socks are
The margins are pretty good.
Yes. And your customers are willing to pay a premium because they're people who are sort of
uh conscious and aware of of natural materials and that's it that's a category I think that is just ripe for
An explosion because at leisure wear is still largely made up of plastic.
Right. I mean it is absolutely petroleum based and increasingly people are like, you know, I do wanna just I wanna go back to c I wanna have cotton or merino wool and it's just harder to find those things. You you would find them in the seventies.
But today, uh performance wear is not made from natural material. So I think there is an opportunity for
Very few people are making
good stuff yet. It's still early days. It's like um
It's like trying to make um sweet stuff.
without using sugar. It's still a little challenging.
Yeah, that's why it just feels so
Like
I just want to go, go, go'cause it's such
it it feels like such a right market for disruption. You are a founder and an entrepreneur. We all have the same we're all wired the same, which is like we just
But but sometimes it is like
You know.
Just taking a little bit of a pause and like letting it happen. I mean you when you from the outside, I you can always it's easier to look as like a coach.
Yeah. But trust me, I did the same thing. I mean I couldn't
leave a single cell to not I I was I had to move as fast as I could. I couldn't help it.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Melita, thank you so much for calling in. The brand is called Q for Quinn. By the way, I didn't ask you who's Quinn?
So Quinn is my son's middle name. He was named after my grandmother Queenie who passed away just before he was born. So it's a special name. Uh cue for Quinn.
Good luck. Thanks for calling in.
Thank you so much for having me.
Thank you.
Yeah, I don't know if you guys I don't know if you guys have looked around but uh but I I've gotten into like I wear you know, well wear the Vioris and Lululemons and Aloes, I wear'em all in Nike, obviously.
But I do increasingly I'm looking for like all natural stuff.
I totally agree with you. I think there's a big hole.
in the market and and so
Every instinct I had said, Yeah, just go just go for it. But
You know, I worry about what's gonna happen in that vision if she if she does too fast.
Yeah. And it's early it is early.
Very.

Alright, well I say natural, I say like I'm into natural fibers. I me who just replaced my my grass with uh fake grass. So there you go.
That's the most California thing I think I've ever heard. Out here in New Jersey, we don't do that. Yeah, yeah, you don't have to.
We're gonna take a quick break, but when we come back, another caller, another question, and another round of advice.
I'm Guy Raw, stick around, you're listening to the device line on how I built this lab.
Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Roz, and today I'm taking your calls with Jamie Simenov, the founder of Ring, and Scott Tannin, co-founder of Bull and Branch. And uh we are ready to take the next call. Let's go. Let's go. All right, welcome to the advice line. You are on with Scott Tannin, Jamie Simenoff.
Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.
Hi Guy, hi Scott, hi Jamie.
My name is Eric Alexon.
I'm the president and one of three co-founders of L Cube Lifestyle.
Where the ethos is laugh.
learn and longevity. We're a Florida based UV lifestyle brand built around one simple goal.
To be the brand people play life at.
Our edges and the fabric.
One hundred percent poly might for comfort.
Performance and true UV protection.
Awesome. Thanks for calling in. Now now we're gonna be talking about this material, if we're talking about natural materials, but this is really where it's at, right? We're talking about performanceware.
You guys are making it and and the it's
Correct me if I'm wrong, Eric. What you guys are focused on is UV protection, uh athleisure wear or sports
clothing that protects you from
The sun.
Yeah.
F ideally from head to toe, we've started with
T shirts, long sleeve shirts, hoodies, and hats.
And we're currently looking um
to a couple of manufacturers to bring in shorts, leggings, and skirts.
So our customers can be protected mechanically.
Instead of with sunscreen and chemicals from head to toe.
And this is interesting'cause a lot of people, I I myself included in in this group are
are worried about, you know, putting on s I do, I use it. I use sunscreen, I use sunblock.
But sometimes I'm like, is this getting into my skin and I've changed to mineral sunscreen and
But if you have something on your body that is
protecting you, you don't have to put sunblock on.
Yeah, and we actually are
Um, backed by
A Moe surgeon and a certified dermatologist here in Florida.
Where she's gone on podcasts with us on other podcasts backing mechanical
Sun protection over the chemicals is always the first choice.
Mechanical meaning clothing. Yeah, or have through the fabric.
Yeah.
Yeah.
All right, so tell me a little bit about how you guys started this business.
Yeah, so I'm a racket sports person background. I grew up in Florida as a competitive tennis player, played college, played
Kinda division.
Triple A baseball level professional team tennis in Europe.
But I actively sought out opportunities to teach tennis indoor.
Because mom and dad are Norwegian.
Heritage, I have the wrong
skin type to teach tennis full time outside.
had a rare opportunity to work with the one hundred percent poly my with another company that ended up going under
And my two co founders made me an offer that I couldn't turn down. So we're bootstrapping, we're funded internally.
And we're trying to
Get into several markets at the same time.
And and you guys selling through your website?
Both the website and we most recently have launched on Amazon for the retail aspect.
Which leads me to my question to you. We're also offering wholesale
And co branded options for
Pickleball tournaments for half marathons.
Surfing companies, paddleboarding, tennis.
Is it wise to try to scale both the retail arm
and the wholesale co co branded arm at the same time.
Or would you recommend focusing on one of them and maybe why?
Mm.
Interesting. Okay. Co branded or uh wholesale retail. Let's let's bring these guys in. Scott Tannin, any thoughts or questions first for Eric?
Yeah, I mean my first question is um
How are your margins?
Yeah. So yeah, we're currently manufactured out of Brazil. So ter recent tariffs, um, we're looking into some other manufacturing options.
They're pretty tight.
And even more so on the co branded manufacturing side.
Yeah,'cause I I think
Margins are gonna be really important here, and and and I say that because
Education.
Is critical. You've got
to educate the customer on
why I mean I go outside in clothing all the time and I don't expect I'm getting sunburnt, right? So
you're gonna ha education eats margins, right? That is like as clear as day. Education eats margins. And when you're the first one to do it, you've got to bear the cost of that.
In terms of building a brand. And so
I I just think like protect those margins.
And then get after
trying to unlock with the customer the fact that
The best way for me to protect against the sun is
this apparel when I'm when I'm active and those sorts of things. It's not easy to do. Really, really hard to do. But I think that's the challenge in front of you.
So we could get
some more endorsements, like I said before, from, you know, dermatologists and Mo surgeon.
And to answer your question, a cott or a T J Max like a poly mide or a
A dual blend.
has a default UPF factor of like eighteen to twenty two.
And so ours is certified UV fifty, so it's over double.
I don't currently have that on the website or on the Amazon storefront.
But I can hear you with the education component. Maybe that's something that we need to add.
The pr the problem you're looking at, and I've seen a lot of uh companies do this sort of it's like a vicious cycle, is your
If you could sit down with every customer and explain it like this to me, I would buy your product.
The problem is the cost to do that is so high. And so
There's a million great products that have gone bankrupt.
and gone out of business and not made it because it's too hard to explain
Like Scott made sheets.
They were a little better.
You know, and I'm not d diminishing it, but like but like it's it was like organic cotton sheets. It was like
You know, so I knew what sheets were, I knew what they did, I knew how to use them, I knew everything about it.
I ring.
We did a Wi Fi video camera in a doorbell. Everyone understood what a doorbell was, where it was supposed to be, what like what it did, how it worked.
I just made it on your phone with a video camera. So the pre awareness of the doorbell
Gave me
billions of dollars of marketing and a hundred years of knowledge. And so for you, I'm sitting here thinking about it, it's like
I didn't realize there was this problem. I didn't even realize like
I would just put on a shirt. I don't know.
And I was thinking about like the pre awareness and I'm like, you know what I'd how I'd be selling this?
I'd be making sunscreen bottles.
with the shirt inside of it and selling it where sunscreen is.
Ooh, I love that.
Like pack it into the sunscreen button. And sell it in the sunscreen aisle. I'd be selling the whole thing fifty SPF, whatever, in the sunscreen aisle. In the buttons.
Go right in there.
That's what I do. Because then you want that pre awareness,'cause if it's in the sunscreen aisle, I'd be like
I understand what the shirt does now.
'Cause I'm in the sunscreen aisle.
Mm.
Well he just figured it out for you.
How do you drop one of these mics, guys? Drop it, baby. Because it's not it's not clothing.
I like it. We're not really competing against other
fabrics or other wearables. We're actually competing against sunscreen. So that's brilliant.
Um
But the other factor and a way to
differentiate ourselves in a very competitive athleisure wear with UPF factor.
Is
Most companies
spray on the UV protection after production.
With a chemical. And ours is actually in the tightness or how open the wheels. There you go. You have to ex you have to explain all the time.
Yeah. And you might be right. Like it's not that you're wrong. It's just like
You're in the weeds again. Like I'm replacing sunscreen. By the way, people know that sunscreen now is
Toxic. Don't want to say that'cause we've had some sunscreen brands on the advice line.
Not all of them are.
So but so as a consumer, as a consumer, I believe that sunscreen is not good for you. Fair enough. That's my belief now. That's what I've been told. That's what I've been told. You believe. That's what I believe. Okay. And when I talk to people, they sort of have that belief, but we also don't know how to not to put sunscreen on because I also know that burning my skin off is bad as well. Yeah.
And so I do think it's like positioning yourself directly mechanical sunscreen.
In the bottle, I see it on the thing, know exactly what to do with it, pre awareness.
Boom. And yes, sunscreen is great. It just turns out that I think it's not. I don't know.
Love it. I think what that sets you up to do also
is it lets you think about products in a really different way. Like how do I create real devices that
Protect from the sun.
that are made from this material that you have. I mean
I get it, trust me. Like our
Our products, even though Jamie thinks we only make one thing, one small thing different, he's actually dead right. If, you know, Missy can go deep with him on how she made a downproof fabric without chemicals, but at the end of the day, it's like
I don't know, is the is the down comforter comfortable?
Um you know, and and and so people just want sun protection from you. Give it to them. Yes, and it's convenient. Your opportunity
I think is clear.
It's not
It's not competing with the
at leisureware market necessarily. It's going after the people using Sunblock and Sunscreen.
That's brilliant. I appreciate it, guys.
And I think to your question around like what channels should you think about.
You now have an enemy, right? Your enemy is sunscreen. Go chase them and it's every channel that they play. All my sunscreen founders are gonna kill me. And and you know what retail loves? Retail loves something new in an aisle that brings in more money to that aisle. They love change. They love this. So if you go to them and say, in your sunscreen aisle, I want to do this.
They will love this. It's higher margin, higher per square per square foot sales. It's like
This is
Catnip.
Yeah, C V S, Walgreens, like
Surf shops.
Yeah.
All right, awesome.
Eric Alexand, co founder of L Cubed Lifestyle. Good luck, man. Thanks for calling in.
Thanks guys, appreciate it.
Good luck.
J how much do you guys charge an hour? Jamie, what's your hourly consulting deal? Brilliant.
Yeah, I charge like a steak dinner. So like I expect I expect Eric when he's like a billionaire from this to at least take me out for like a steak dinner. Waggy one. A five Miyazaki?
Yeah, you know, I'm actually like more just like a regular US choice. Steak and fries, you know. Like I'm not yeah, I don't need the
I don't remember what I owed Jamie a steak dinner for something and then I got Vertigo that day.
And I'm like in bed and he's like You're so full of it.
I'm like, no dude, I can't get it.
Does that count?
That that's fine. Or I have an aggressive fight. I'm a Denny's guy. I'm a Denny's guy.
I've never been to a Denny's.
They're great. They're great. I mean I I eat horrible things, so I think I would like it. Denny's is right up your alley, Scott. You're loving Denny's perfect. You should be going to Denny's.

After the break, another caller with another business challenge.
I'm Guy Raz, and we're answering your business questions right here.
The advice line.
on how I built this lab.
Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab.
I'm Guy Raz.
And my guest today are Bull and Branch co founder Scott Tannan.
And ring founder Jamie Simenov. Uh Scott, Jamie, you guys ready for another call? Let's go. Let's do it.
Welcome to the advice line. You're on with Scott and Jamie. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and uh a little bit about your business.
Hey guy, hey Jamie, hey Scott. My name's Chris McElroy. I'm the CEO and founder of Knox Provisions, and I'm calling from Alpine Meadows, California.
Nox is short for Binox, which is short for binoculars. And we make award-winning, beautifully designed binoculars.
Monoculars and scopes.
With a modern brand that celebrates accessibility, inclusivity, and presence in the outdoors. All right, awesome. Chris, thanks for calling in. Um describe so these are binoculars and monoculars. Minoculars?
Is that right? And and tell me what makes them
What I mean, what makes them different or stand out or unique?
You know
When we got the company going.
The idea of having binoculars at a football game, a music festival, going out
to the beach was was was really appealing. And when I looked at the market
The industrial design was really just dominated by kind of a homogenous black or
Green binocular.
brands that were kinda saying the same thing. And uh ultimately what we did is we built
High quality, compact binoculars that are
Well designed, colorful, and wrapped up in a brand that really
Celebrates getting people in the outdoors. Yeah, I have a pair of binoculars and they're really clunky. Uh you put'em around your neck and it's it does it feels like the same like same way it felt like when I was a kid in the eighties. It hasn't changed much. Obviously there are different kinds, but so this is these are just they're sleeker, right? I mean they're it's I guess it's got a grippy uh outer coating.
Two? Yeah.
That's right.
And and we got started by basically making
A compact waterproof
Binocular. High quality.
Hundred bucks.
That was the initial thesis.
How long have you been doing this?
We've been doing this for six years now. Got it. And what were you doing before?
Before that, after school, I had co-founded a Bluetooth speaker business in twenty ten, when Bluetooth was still new.
And
When the market was just all blacked little capsule speakers, we made a colorful speaker collection.
builds a really cool brand around it and and ultimately raised uh V C money.
And really
Aimed for the moon and hit the atmosphere and blew up.
He blew up, meaning the the company went when
Bankrupt?
Yeah, it was sold for parts, but it was a great run. It was kind of like getting an MBA. Learned a ton, went to China probably twenty times. And after that went belly up, I built a 3D printer.
And was kinda set on
Building the next thing. Um, and a buddy came back from the Outside Lands Music Festival and said, Man, if only we had some stylish cool binoculars.
Well th those would be great.
And so I took a look at the market and uh
Really?
As a product person was confused. Do you spend five hundred bucks, seven hundred, fifty? Like what are these brands? Um it seemed like a great
opportunity and uh kind of ran the same similar playbook back. So
Brought colour.
Brought an active brand to that space.
Awesome. So you've been doing this for six years now. And and and did you also raise um outside capital like you did with with your last business, or did you do did you take a different route?
Oh, we took a different route. It was a great learning experience, great mentorship. We uh
It was a good run, but again, that type of return on an on a lifestyle brand I don't think fits the VC sort of paradigm.
And so with Knox, uh it was it's been bootstrapped this whole time.
Nice. And g give us a sense of and these are mainly sold online or or in shops. Where where are they sold?
We sell in core outdoor retailers across the United States. We sell in Canada, New Zealand, Australia, Europe. Uh we're in REI nationwide, as well as Dick's sporting goods nationwide. And then of course we have our own Amazon and
Uh direct to consumer channel.
And and what are you guys doing in sales right now?
Last year we crested ten million.
And uh this year is incredible.
Yeah, and this year we we've hit that again in some pretty intense headwinds in the outdoor industry and given tariffs so
Uh we've got a great team. Congrats. And what's your question for us?
We've seen this growth initially in the core outdoor channels.
Been great.
But we know our optics have utility beyond this.
How do we drive awareness that people should use binoculars outside of traditional outdoor channels, such as birding or hunting?
Yeah, Jamie Simonov sounds like you in the early days, building stuff, trying tinkering, trying to come up with a new invention, not working.
But actually having a a s a failure is a hugely advantageous experience. So by the way, kudos to you also, Chris, for for coming right back to it after that you know that first
Thing did work out. So
Yeah. It's uh it's always good to see someone recover like that. I mean it's it it it people
It's always easy afterwards to like say how easy it I built another business, but like going through that trough is
It's really tough. So so yeah, kudos for being able to get through it and build it.
Incredibly successful business so far.
Thank you.
Yeah, so what so what do you think here? I mean, how do you how would you start either of you guys in in in sort of uh tackling the question or any questions that you might have for Chris?
I mean, for me I'm looking at it saying, Okay, if you want to expand in different things
How do you attach this to the phone? I'm thinking about like TikTok, Instagram, and like is there a
Is there a way to integrate something into like a case or something? You know, something with the phones, you're getting more of that digital.
And then using that as a way to sort of efficiently get this out there because obviously any like top of a funnel advertising is gonna be very expensive.
Yeah.
I think it's really interesting.
Like a lot of brands have this challenge of developing their own positioning.
You have to actually deposition the rest of the cabinet.
And I don't even know if I just made up that word. I probably did.
Jamie'll kinda point that out later. But start but I I think that like i if you think about what you are, right? You are the same thing that exists in the category. But you're also
Completely not.
At least in terms of what you look like and how you show up and all of those things. So I think your instincts are right to figure out how do I make this some sort of lifestyle accessory that exists in a world
Where
You wouldn't want to bring like you know the guy that shows up at a football game when it's cold and he's wearing his fluorescent orange hunting gear.
Like you don't want to be that guy in the stadium with your camouflage binoculars. You wanna have knocks.
And and so how do we deliver on that? How do we and and I think Jamie's right, like figuring out the right way to integrate with social media so that that
It starts being like the places you show up, it makes sense that Nox is the brand that you're gonna have if that's your lifestyle. Like I'm an indoor cat.
But I occasionally go outside to like sporting events and stuff. Um, I don't farm and do stuff like Jamie does. And so my needs are for less camo and more bright colors. Like I saw it and I'm like, I'm in.
Cool.
Yeah, and Scott, I know you're a a big football fan or or Werb, and my experience with binoculars growing up was going to forty niner games. That was it.
it was an easy first step, or not an easy, but an obvious first step to pursue the outdoor channel.
And we're at a point now where it's like
Do we go all in and
Go into music festivals.
Do we pursue like an N FL license? I just would look at like uh as a as you keep talking and it's like it's like
But people don't go to these things anymore, most of them, and by this is very sad, I think, but they go to capture the photo, not to see it themselves.
Yeah. Binoculars are for you.
And so I think it is trying to figure out how to
Get the binocular to show that. And by the way, ring, you know, we we m watermarked
Every video. So when you see a ring, you know, something happens and then it's on the news, it says ring on the side. Like
Can you figure out how to like
somehow get towards that because the reality is what I really want to do when I'm at the football game is take a picture to show my friends that I was there, and that's where the knocks.
Kind of can can you get that, I guess.
'Cause kids, I mean, everywhere I go now, all they do
is these selfies and these tick like it's again, I I don't love it personally, but I think from a business side you have to lean into it.
I think that's I think that's really, really interesting. I I'm gonna take a slightly different tech. I think Jamie's probably right. Like if you wanna make money, follow Jamie's advice. If you don't wanna make money, follow the advice I'm about to give you, which is
I I actually think you're
biggest competition is
Distraction.
Right. And and
I'm really interested in this whole
movement of people.
who are interested in analog experiences.
putting their phones I've got this thing called a brick. I it's on my fridge, I scan my phone and it locks it up.
and I gotta go back physically to that thing and it unlocks. It's a very analog, but it's great.
I think that maybe
You might want to think about creating some kind of campaign around a like a daily ritual.
Like
Put away the ph no phone.
Uh
You know, take a walk.
Go outside.
Look up. I just think that there's an opportunity.
to lean into this kind of
Screen free, like sort of
decompress kind of thing that's happening. Because a lot of people are
interest in it. Their brains are overloaded with junk that they're getting from their devices.
And I wonder whether
You might want to kinda lean into that.
Yeah.
That's a great point. Binoculars, monoculars, they're a little portal into presence. Yeah. I mean you could build a a whole campaign around just the idea of like
Noticed the world again. Like I
Look, I'm not saying that's gonna be the panacea, but it's a it's a
You can kind if you
Think about it that way. It's an opportunity to
to sort of expand how people use the device to use the b the binoculars.
Anyway, I this is my thoughts. Don't follow my advice. If you want to make money, turn into a social media. I think guys
I just think after selling to the ten people Guy's talking about, then you gotta go to my market. Exactly. I just like but like yes, he's totally right. There are ten people out there that wanna do this. And it's super yeah, we should supply the binoculars. You wanna make an app on the iPhone that you can connect with a binocular, and there you go.
Scott, any thoughts?
Yeah, I mean I I
I was gonna say something maybe friendlier than Jamie put it, but um but I I tend to agree with it. I I think that there's I don't know, there is something like I have college age girls and what I'm noticing when I go visit them at school in Tailgates, people have regular digital cameras now.
And I'm like, what the hell? I have the iPhone seventeen pro. Isn't that better? But there's something about detaching from the phone that
That
Yeah. And I think
I don't know why people carry these digital cameras. I've never gotten a clear answer on that. However, if you can figure out why.
And attach this
to sort of that idea, then then
You know, maybe there's twenty people guy that I like that would be. I like that Scott took like the guy and Jamie and like like mashed it together to make like a good sort of outcome from both.
Yeah, I'm a peacekeeper.
Yeah, but I mean it's it you know, even if you go to your website here.
Chris. I mean it's good, but you're definitely
clearly it looks like, you know, it's for stargazing or for camping, adventure, it's adventure. You know, it's sort of like
It's like the person who who drives a Rivian, right, is gonna want these in their car, which is great. I mean there's a lot of people like that. And I th I I would definitely keep doing that. You wanna lean into that. But for example, like
I I think about something like skiing. Nobody has a you these could just slip into your ski pocket of your ski pants and
You know, while you're skiing, like maybe you'd want to look at the chair list from a distance. I don't know, maybe there's
There are other, you know, use cases, but I think that
Just
Make it into a ritual or routine or just something that's always around.
Can't we just see Guy and Aspen on the on the ellips with the monocular?
Capture those moments. That's all.
My TikTok.
Perfect. Yeah.
Uh it's an awesome product. Well congrats on on on all your success, Chris.
Good luck. The brand is called Knox Provisions. Thanks for calling in, man.
Yeah.
Thank you.
And uh appreciate it.
Thank you.
But thanks.
Um
Yeah, I mean I
I d every time I have binoculars, I'm like, God, I don't want to have these around more.
Like they are really useful.
That's why I like the phone case thing,'cause then it's like it's it sort of like puts it with the
System that you have. Yeah.
Like you would have a phone case like a binocular case?
Yeah, like and maybe the thing just like clicks up to the camera, but it also is like integrated. So it's like one piece.
Maybe people can embrace their inner creepy.
You know? Don't be a creeper. I like that. I know. I was like
Maybe maybe there's a big market of creepy people that could buy this stuff. Revenue's revenue. Exactly. There you go.
Um, guys, before I let you go, Jamie, I've asked you this question, so I'm not gonna ask you again, but Scott, if you were
to go back to the Scott of you know early days of Bolin branch when you guys were starting it and you could give yourself some advice that would have been helpful.
to to have known then that you now know.
You know, all these years later, what what would have been helpful for you to know?
Keep it simple.
your approach to the problems you run into the challenges, try to simple it down and slim it down to something really clear, really addressable, and knock it out and move on. Um, none of our businesses, as complex as our businesses are,
At their core, what makes them successful or not is not that complicated. It's about
You know, how well you're serving a customer, how well your customer loves the product, and those sorts of things. So I think the the less you stray away,
From the simplicity of that, the better.
Fair enough.
All right.
Scott Tannin.
Jamie Simonoff, thanks so much for coming back on the show, guys.
Thanks for having us, guys. Thanks for having us. It's great.
And by the way, if you haven't heard Scott and Jamie's original How I Built This episodes, please go back and check them out. We'll put a link to them.
in the show notes and here's one of my favorite moments.
From my interview first with Scott.
You took a line of credit against your house.
to spend two million dollars on an ad campaign on Howard's turn.
Yeah. I took the the most amount of debt I've ever had.
On anything in my life. Wow.
Just to advertise on Howard's turn.
You're putting all your eggs in that basket.
Yeah, without a plan for what I was gonna do if it worked, but
I believe so strongly that somebody like Howard was gonna put us on the map.
I believed it was possible.
Sounds kind of nuts.
It does, actually, now that you say it.
And here is one of my favorite moments from my interview with Jamie.
We start hearing it's like the week before Christmas, people are contacting me and saying it's not working.
and their video was coming through like an old TV like tuner, like it was like all like lines through it and just you couldn't see the picture.
So
Most of our units are now in the field with customers.
That not only do they not work, but we can't change that software on them, so they're basically brick.
You cannot fix the ones that people have. Yeah, you can't rewrite the software on this chip.
And so
This was like the end of the world. Like this really was.
Basically the business is over.
Thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free at gyros.com.
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This episode was produced by JC Howard with music composed by Ramtina Oblui. It was edited by Andrea Bruce.
Our production staff also includes Cather, Ramel Wood, Casey Herman, Sam Paulson, Carrie Thompson, and Elaine Coates.
I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening.