Anti-polarizing strategies from a purple city, with OKC Mayor David Holt

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1:20 Join us at masters of scale dot com slash apply twenty six. That's mastersofscom slash apply. Twenty six. What we've had is a workforce shortage in Oklahoma City. Now for basically the whole time I've been mayor, so I need people to take these jobs and all kinds of jobs, you know, highly skilled jobs and low skilled jobs. And so

1:46 The historical American answer to that problem has often been immigration. And yeah, sure, I mean it has to be like controlled and you know regulated. I mean it's not an argument for open borders, but you can't just close your border either, you know? I mean you have to find Some reasonable middle ground where you are taking in a pretty healthy number of immigrants. If you don't do that, Yeah, you're gonna suffer economic consequences. That's Oklahoma City Mayer David Hol. As US cities of all sizes unprecedented pressure from federal budget shifts, ice raids, and potential national guard presence, I wanted to talk to Mayor Holt, who's the current president of the US Conference of Mayors. Mayor Holt is a Republican.

2:34 In what he calls a deeply purple city, and he offers a refreshing perspective about why cities are thriving and what statewide and national institutions can learn from mayors on the ground experience. There are plenty of lessons for business leaders too about how to lead and appeal to a broad constituency without being polarizing or alienating. So Let's get to it. I'm Bob Safian. And this

3:01 Із рапід респанс. I'm Bob Safian. I'm here with Oklahoma City Mayor David Holt, current president of the US Conference of Mayors. Mayor, thanks for uh being here. My pleasure. Thanks for having me, Bob. So Oklahoma City is the the twentieth largest city in the US. Many people know it because of the OKC Thunder, the raining NBA champs, or as a hub of native American culture, oil and gas drilling, of course the the tragic Oklahoma City bombing and in nineteen ninety five. When when you have to describe OK C in a sentence or two to people who don't know as much about it.

3:40 What w how do you describe it? What do you say? As a mayor who's wanting you to take my city seriously. I often lead with twentieth largest city because I know you probably don't think of us as being that big. I'm probably gonna talk about the Thunder because that is front of mine. And they are fun to watch. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

3:59 What I really want people to know about Oklahoma City is that it has all of the amenities of a great American city. And it's in a very dynamic growth phase. right now, you know, and that this is really kind of our golden age and we're offering a very unique value proposition in American life right now, which is we sort of still have all of the ease of living and cost of living of a smaller place. But

4:25 You can go to James Beard Award winning restaurants, you can watch the NBA champions, you can go to great art museums, you can go to great parks, and you can enjoy All the amenities that you would expect to find in a much larger place. And I think that is a unique combination. Now, sometimes so many people take you up on it. Um that you start to lose that ease of living and that cost of living advantage. But uh in the meantime, I say enjoy it. So I think I obviously I spend a lot of time selling my city and it's a great uh product to sell, but oftentimes I deal with A lot of ignorance about my city or just, you know, kind of a blank stare, right? And so it's it's oftentimes I have a blank canvas upon which to paint.

5:04 This moment that you talk about Oklahoma City having like Where where does that come from? I mean here's it in a nutshell. It really begins in the nineteen eighties when we experienced an oil bust. And that was a depression, an economic depression for our city. And then we tried to we were trying to chase this United Airlines facility in the early nineties. It was kinda like the Amazon two of its time. Lots of cities were trying to get this big

5:30 uh this big job opportunity, thousands of jobs, and we didn't get it and went to Indianapolis. And our mayor at the time, this is sort of like a famous story locally. Supposedly called the CEO of United Airlines. And he asked, Why didn't you come here? I mean, we had like passed a a tax incentive for and we did all these things. And he said, Well, Mayor, I just couldn't imagine making my employees live in Oklahoma City.

5:53 Oof. And you know, it was that moment that really Finally crystallized for us that Our quality of life. was was not where it needed to be and really

6:05 That in a modern America The jobs follow the people, not the other way around. You thought you used to think like well people moved where there was economic opportunity, but in fact, like people just moved where they wanted to live. And then the economic the the people who who offer economic opportunity had no choice but to go where those people are, where those talented people are. And so in nineteen ninety three We passed a sales tax initiative called MAPS Metropolitan Area Projects.

6:34 And it invested in quality of life stuff. It built the arena that the Thunder just won the championship in. It built a downtown ballpark. It built Things that you don't necessarily need for human survival, but are actually pretty existential to a city's survival. And that has made all the difference and we're now on maps four. That's my version as Mayor. And actually over this thirty years. Our voters have voted fifteen times, fifteen and oh. We've never lost one.

7:02 To invest in our cities. Quality of life and core infrastructure to the tune of just under ten billion dollars. And so that investment in ourselves is really the key to our success. And in my lifetime, we've gone from being the thirty seventh largest city to the twentieth largest city, and you don't make that kind of movement in the top forty. Without doing something dramatic. And the dramatic thing we did was invest in ourselves and really improved our quality of life. And as a result, the theory has been proven out. Our economy is strong. Everything about our city has improved. There was a branding issue for the city, right? But the way to deal with that was not focus on the branding, but focus on the actual experience and let the brand

7:41 sort of follow. It's true of cities and businesses and products and everything. You can't always just market your way out of a problem. I mean sometimes you actually have to address the problem. And I think that We we understood that we couldn't just like come up with a flashy T V ad to make Oklahoma City look better than it was, we had to actually make Oklahoma City better first. So uh you and I were connected by a a mutual colleague, a former guest on this show, Nasnina Ash of uh Welcome US. And she talked about you as as a sort of unexpected nonpartisan operator. I mean, you're a republican, you you don't always tow the MAGA line. Like is that a reflection Of Oklahoma City, of you

8:24 course it's a reflection of me. I'm an authentic person, but What incentivizes me as mayor Um, operates on a couple of levels. One, the city is Much more purple than people might think from the outside looking at. I mean, yeah, the state hasn't voted for a democrat for president since Lyndon B. Johnson, but

8:43 The city Um is is basically fifty fifty. Um in the twenty twenty and twenty twenty four presidential elections. Trump won this county forty nine forty eight. That exact same number in both of those elections, which is a really pretty good microcosm of the country and we're also a pretty good microcosm of the country. demographically. But we work together and get things done, which leads me to my second point about I think what

9:10 makes me who I am as mayor of the city. We have an electoral system. That is actually pretty common among cities for whatever historical reason. When I run for election as mayor I don't go through a closed partisan

9:25 Primary. like most people do around the country when they run for governor or US Senate or whatever. They first face Um the most extreme voters that this country has who have kind of a different priority list than the rest of us. This is gonna be true in a red state and a blue state, right?

9:44 If you're running in a closed Republican primary, you gotta be all MAGA, you gotta be part of the Trump cult, you know. But if you're running in a b in a blue state in a closed partisan primary, especially in a lot of you know certain really hardcore blue areas, you practically have to pretend to be a communist, you know? And so So like Here in Oklahoma City, however. I face

10:04 All of the voters on election day, Republicans, Independents, and Democrats And it incentivizes me And all of my predecessors To just talk about the issues that are important to the seventy percent of people in the middle and really kind of ignore the extremes that are so powerful in close partisan primaries. And build a coalition

10:24 of normal Republicans, Democrats, and independents that that represent that seventy percent. So when I say it's important when I say that the city is a microcosm of the country, both politically and demographically. Because we are proving Through my elections and through the elections that we have for these initiatives, because I got seventy eight and sixty percent in my two elections, and my initiatives have gotten seventy-two, seventy-one, and seventy-five percent. Um If if you're that divided on national politics, but you're able to come together

10:55 Um on these local issues and these local candidates To me, the only difference between the two is the way that we run the election. And of course, when we elect Congress congress people here in Oklahoma City, we vote through the closed partisan primary and all of that. But when we elect mayors. Everybody gets to vote. And I think this is so critical. So I talk about it a lot because it sounds like wonky and sort of like well, that's obscure. I want to talk about the issues, you know, but I'm telling you, like every issue

11:22 Is built on the foundation of how you elect people. And how we elect people in America. Is killing us, you know, like we've got to get back to a system like we have in a lot of cities. Where everybody votes. And I'm telling you, when everybody votes, we're not as crazy as we look like we are. We're actually pretty normal and we can compromise and we can work together. When you talk to other mayors, I mean so much of America's become so polarized.

11:47 But are are mayors not necessarily more partisan than they used to be. Well, first of all, I reject the notion that Americans are polarized. I believe that those fifteen percent at both extremes that control the primaries are polarized and they're producing polarizing candidates. But I would argue there's still seventy percent of us in the middle who just want to work together. And we learned how to compromise in kindergarten and we're still capable of it, but we're not getting a chance to do it in our electoral systems. But mayors, for the most part, being a most of us are elected through what I just described, which is a basically a top two system. Um, where all the voters get to see all of the candidates and all of the all of the candidates have to face all of the voters. Um, yeah, it incentivizes us differently. And so yeah, we tend to be we tend to operate in a much more pragmatic fashion.

12:35 And I guess the other thing, of course, that makes us unique is like we gotta get things done. So I mean the services we provide to you are are literally necessary for human survival, right? If I if the water system doesn't work for about three days, you'll start you know, the my my citizens will start dying, right? So like I've got to Pick up the trash, produce the water, you know, do all these core services.

12:59 And so we really kinda have no choice but to just get it done. Like I can't I can't settle for this partisan nonsense and bickering. So you are you are shortly gonna be convening uh the nation's mayors in your in your role as as head of the US Conference of Mayors in DC at the end of the month. Th things are pretty intense in some cities right now. W what are the the top uh agenda items for for this meeting? Like what what do you what do you hope to achieve? You know, so the U S Conference of Mayors, the the the organization I serve as president of for the next Six months. I've been doing it about six months. I serve one one year term as the president.

13:37 We've been around for nearly a hundred years. We we advocate as a group. And so that's that's like why we go to DC every January and why we're going to DC at the end of this month. We We speak as one and we do so in a very bipartisan fashion. We're like there's a lot of groups like this for different you know, levels of government. There's a National Governors Association, there's a Several organizations for state legislators and so on.

14:02 But we're kind of the only one left that is very And truly bipartisan, and so. Um, it's not to say that we're all the same, but we sure work really hard to find the common ground and the things that we can advocate for jointly in Washington. So that's our first purpose, and we've been very influential through the years. The second thing we do Is yeah, we share best practices.

14:24 Of course we all, you know, face a lot of the same challenges in our cities. And so if if there's a a a new mayor like Zoran M Mamdani coming in in New York, is there like a welcome process for him, an orientation program? We work with Bloomberg and Harvard, and they there is kind of a new mayor school. It's two days long and it happened back in December. And though The new mayor of New York was not there. There actually were quite a few uh big city and and small city mayors there. The third thing we do is we support each other. I I I would say that is not insignificant and I always like to bring it up. I mean, there's only one person in your city who knows what you're going through. You know, you need like

14:59 that um that that that friend group really of peers Who um who who can support you and we do that for each other. I mean you know modern technology allows You know, an almost endless Conversation to be happening among mayors. And so in this environment like the the White House has gone after some US mayors, you know, deploying the National Guard to cities pursuing ice raids in LA, in Chicago, of course, Minneapolis.

15:25 Will you guys all talk about this when you're together? Like sort of how do you keep these conversations from turning? Partisan or You know. Rancorous. Um well, I mean, there's probably not a lot of mayors of any political persuasion who like um intervention in cities. I mean, so that's one thing that's

15:44 You know, gonna be um you know, uh nonpartisan among mayors. Even a Republican mayor believes in local control, right? So Um, so I don't think it'll be particularly rancorous. Um, we'll definitely talk about it. You know, you It's a challenging situation in so many ways, but not the least of which is there's no like easy solution for a city, you know, you are in our form of government

16:08 You're kind of a subservient level, you know, you can't really literally You don't have control over everything, right? I mean of course as a mayor like you get you get emails like when the you know the Whopper didn't have cheese on it. You get emails when, you know, everything in the under the sun. And so certainly certainly your residents also believe that when federal government forces are coming into your city, that there's something you should be able to do. But I mean the reality of it is what it is. Like there's not a lot Um you that you can do. I mean you legally can't really um stand in the way of of the federal government.

16:43 You can try to use rhetoric, but that's its own. That's its own issue because that rhetoric doesn't seem to be doing much to persuade the actions of the federal government and its leadership. And sometimes that rhetoric can actually right can it cause a counter reaction that that's worse, you know. Sometimes you have residents who want the emotional satisfaction of you screaming at people, but you kinda know that that's actually gonna be

17:09 counterproductive. That's what leadership is. Just trying to be caught in the middle of those forces. And sometimes you just have to You have to suck it up and take it, but you're uh but you know deep down you're doing the right thing for your people. It's r it's really tricky, right? The ro the role that you play beyond your city. It's sort of how much Or what kind of role should you play nationally on policy, on social issues? Like where you should And shouldn't have agency. Well, it's like any leadership position. I mean, you can't all you can't fight every battle, you know, and and uh of course, but there will

17:40 There's always somebody who thinks you should, so you know, if that's uh That's the deal is yeah, making sure you uh exercise your influence where it really exists and when it's best utilized and And then otherwise, yeah, maybe sometimes you just gotta keep your head down. Mayor Hult is pretty outspoken for a guy who talks about keeping your head down, but there's so many unexpected things about him, about Oklahoma City, and about his observations of what the US needs. Next up, we'll be digging into how business and government should ideally interact.

18:12 his take on immigration and how AI is and isn't trickling down to the local level. Stay with us. Humans will never be more intelligent than AI. There's gonna be two types of companies. Those were great at AI and those that went out of business because they weren't. How do we build a future? That is human centered.

18:37 I'm Rana El Calyubi. And on my podcast Pioneers of AI, we answer that question and so many more. As an AI scientist, entrepreneur, and investor, I know what it takes to build AI that works for everyone. Every week, I sit down with the pioneers shaping our future, and we take you behind the scenes of the AI that's transforming our lives. Find pioneers of AI wherever you tune in.

19:06 Hey listeners, Bob here. If you listen to Rapid Response on Masters of Scale, you may be missing half the show because every Friday we release a second Rapid Response exclusively in the Rapid Response feed. The guests and topics are just as compelling and timely. From Ford CEO to NASA's administrator to the lessons from The Devil Wears Prada. It takes about 10 seconds to find, just search rapid response wherever you listen to podcasts and hit follow to make sure you never miss an episode. I hope to see you there. Before the break, Oklahoma City Mayor David Holt talked about the distinctive role that cities play in US politics and economic activity. Now he talks about how business and government should interact, what he sees as the upside of immigration, and how AI is showing up at the local level. Let's jump back in.

20:05 Our audience is uh is largely business people, entrepreneurs. W what what sort of relationship should mayors have with with businesses, with national businesses, with local businesses. I'm a believer in Oklahoma City's history for a very strong partnership between

20:23 elected city leaders and and the business community Those fifteen initiatives that I mentioned The Chamber of Commerce ran every one of the campaigns'cause we can't really run a campaign, you know, like I can have an idea And I can post about it on my Facebook, but like I the the government can't pay to run T V ads and mail you uh persuasive mail pieces about it. Like somebody else outside of City Hall has to do that. Legally and practically, right?

20:49 And so we've had a great relationship. um with our business community here. And ultimately besides the elections, I mean you need a strong economy, right? To really enjoy all of your Um all of your aspirations. You know, when people In my community

21:06 Talk about the re the very real human challenges that we face, like homelessness and poverty. And to me, it's like I I don't really see a pathway. To meet those needs and those challenges without a strong economy, right? So like I gotta have I've gotta have a business community that's thriving and certainly I play A role in that, ensuring that we have the regulatory and tax environment that's that's uh helpful to them. And you know, also as a mayor, you're often out there

21:34 you know, cheerleading or recruiting. You're kind of like the business recruiter in chief. So no, I'm I'm I'm a big believer. I mean, sure, you shouldn't be uh a tool of crony capitalism. I mean that's a different thing. And I guess that's like the fear of a of the of it going too far. But to me that's at that point you're not really supporting business growth. You're just supporting individual businesses, but overall a fair and neutral uh pro business environment is is very important to I think a city like mine. And that's probably the

22:07 The one of the major aspects of my you know, general philosophy that appears the most republican, right? I'm a free market Crow business uh mayor. On immigration, say are you W like what where d where does that fit or I mean that helps

22:24 Growth your population, but it it's also got a lot of tricky elements to it. Well, I mean it can if you wanna if you wanna act like it's uh a weakness, but you know, it has actually historically been one of the great strengths for America. Just from a business perspective, right? I mean, we need

22:44 We need people To take jobs of all kinds in Oklahoma City. We have a record streak right now of unemployment below four percent, fifty straight months. So You know, what we've had is a workforce shortage in Oklahoma City now for basically the whole time I've been mayor, so I mean, I need people, you know, I need people to take these jobs and all kinds of jobs, you know, highly skilled jobs and low skilled jobs. And so

23:12 Um you know, the historical American answer to that problem has often been immigration and Yeah, sure. I mean it has to be like controlled and, you know, regulated. I mean it's not It's not an argument for open borders, but Um, but you can't just close your border either, you know? I mean you have to find some reasonable middle ground where you are taking in a pretty healthy number of immigrants.

23:37 Um and and you will find if you don't do that. Yeah, you're gonna suffer economic consequences. And then of course there are these wonderful byproducts of it. Great culture, great You know, diversity that diversity of thought and experience. But really, I think in many ways, if you just want to be practical about it, and probably you could find the greatest consensus. around the idea that it's just an economic necessity to have um, you know, pretty strong immigration in your communities.

24:06 Makes me think of what you were saying earlier about the way sort of the extremes of our country drive drive these policies as opposed to sort of the common sense. About it. Sure. 15% of the country thinks there should be no immigration. 15% of the country thinks like take the fences down and just let's all live in one happy world. And then the 70% of us in the middle have a common sense immigration policy that we could probably write if you could just put all of us in a room one day. Um, but like we never get to do that because the debate is controlled by these two polar opposites. And and again, I just think it looks like from the outside that I guess those are the two viewpoints and they'll never reconcile. And the reality is no, there's a bunch of us who could figure this out if you would just sort of let us speak with one voice, but again, our electoral system Doesn't really encourage that. I'm struck by how much

24:57 As you describe it like the role of cities of mayors is like This ballast That is You know Keeping the country from tipping too far towards the extremes. Yeah. Well, I mean, uh, we are kind of the last bastion of responsible governance in the country.

25:14 And yeah, God help us if we tip into this Insanity and hyperpartisanship and polarization and ultimately just this ineffectiveness that happens at the extremes of the ideological spectrum. So Um And and yeah, I mean I I am fearful of that. Here in Oklahoma, there's a petition right now being gathered.

25:37 We'll see if it makes it to the ballot, but it would actually create statewide a top two election system. like we do in Oklahoma City. So and I'm very vocally supporting that. So I would say like I'm not just resigned to the reality that state and national politics have to be dysfunctional. I'm I'm using this platform to push back and hope that we can be Um

26:00 you know, a bulwark that is actually pushing effective governance back into the other levels of government in this country because I think we provide a great example that it is actually possible It doesn't have to be this way. Oklahoma City, you mentioned sort of economically is is doing quite well. US cities Overall, uh, do you feel like they're in a good place? They're in a tough place.

26:24 We are the chief economic and cultural engines of the country. Um, and so I mean relative to non urban places, we're still where it's at, and I don't see that changing. And you know, maybe the trade off has historically been Higher levels of crime.

26:42 But right now practically every American city is is experiencing historic declines in the crime rate. So Yeah, I think American cities are in a in a great place. They are still the place We're talented and intelligent and creative people. Flock.

27:00 Is still a place where innovation happens. And and right now it's it's not a it's not a place that's any more dangerous than other places. That's not the rhetoric that emanates out of DC. And so that can like kind of warp your thinking. Well, I I don't know. I mean, I keep hearing that there's like You know that there's uh carnage across our American cities, you know, and

27:21 That's not reality that serves someone's political purpose, I guess, but Um no I think on the ground in reality cities are actually yeah having a having a great time. And this this perception of of a like an urban rural divide, you know, different lifestyle, different values.

27:40 Different type of work. Do you see that? Yeah, of course. And that's okay. Like, you know, it's a it's a free country. Like, you know, that's what I always think is you know, why do we have to Obsessed over the way other people choose to live their lives, right? So Yeah, I don't necessarily want to live in in rural America.

28:00 But that's okay. Like, you know, that that's I I I know people who do. My dad lives on a ranch. I've had lots of relatives that have lived in in, you know, very uh very low population areas and there are various reasons why that's very attractive to different personality types. Um, and I think that's great. Um, on the on the flip side of that, you know, why should people judge If you want to live in a city and you want to be around diversity of of religion and

28:29 sexuality and and and ethnicity and that doesn't bother you, you know? And maybe if it bothers you and you want to live out in the country and and have Have a a simpler existence and and less diversity in in the in the people you ex you encounter. Great, right? Like I don't think that's I don't think you have to worry about how I'm living my life. There is, of course, again, like so many things in American life. These

28:55 polar opposites that want to create a debate about that, you know, but I guess it gets back to a word I haven't yet been able to work into this conversation, which is maybe the most important word in American politics, and that is pluralism. Pluralism is a very political sciencey sounding word, but it is the idea that we're all going to disagree on our lifestyle choices. Where we want to live. А політик

29:21 And that's okay. Then we're gonna figure it out. And our political system is created for us to arrive at a compromise that probably isn't exactly what any of us wanted. But it's good enough and we'll move on and we'll accept that we're different. Right. And so the extremes don't accept that difference. They want to annihilate everybody else. But that acceptance of pluralism is like an inherent value in American government that we have to embrace. And so I I guess I apply it to this question of urban versus rural. I just accept it, you know, like it's okay that some people want to live in the country and some people want to live in the city, like

29:59 Live with it. It's fine. We can all enjoy there's plenty of room in this country still. We can we can enjoy different lifestyles and we shouldn't have to be angry that other people Don't want to live that way. As conference president, I asked my fellow mayors to sign the Oklahoma City Declaration and I would encourage your viewers and listeners to check it out, just Google Oklahoma City Declaration. We've had over two hundred and thirty mayors sign it so far.

30:24 And it is It is a rebuttal to that extremism and that polarization. It is a A three page statement of the the democratic values and behaviors and philosophies that are necessary for this experiment. to survive another two hundred and fifty years. And uh talks about pluralism and it talks about compromise. And it also talks about

30:46 very practical and explicit daily behaviors because we got to get back to that as Americans. Uh we got to understand Civics. We gotta understand way the groups behave and and function and we gotta we gotta work together again. One last question. I feel like I have to always ask everyone I talk to about AI and what and what the implications might be. Do you have a a theory of the game, a framework about it? I think cities are still exploring it. Lots of swirling conversations. Would I say that in in in Oklahoma City it is as yet revolutionized anything we're doing? No.

31:23 I don't want to seem like um A Ludite that like I'm I'm cautioning that there's a possibility this isn't as big of a deal as everybody saying that it is, but um 'Cause it'cause it might be, but You know the idea that it would severely diminish the need for staff or anything like that. I I mean I'm not we're not seeing that. That impact you had in cities. But

31:44 To be frank, I mean, governments are not usually the most innovative entities in this country. I mean, like we'll be a little bit of a lagging indicator. We all wanna be better than that, but the but the the I I'm I've given up hope that we're gonna be the greatest innovators. I mean we will We will be more cautious and we will wait to see some of these applications in The private sector probably before we'll fully adopt them into The government.

32:09 Well, Mayor, this has been great. Thanks so much for joining. My pleasure. Thanks for having the conversation, Bob. It was great. I can see why Mayor Holt has been popular in Oklahoma City. He's personable and reasonable, and he isn't shy about who he is and what he believes. There are a lot of parallels I see between how Mayor Holt talks about running a city and the role of running a business. You need to appeal to a broad community, you need to motivate a group, and you need to prioritize getting things done. The elevation of Oklahoma City's brand is a testament to both active achievement and well-framed storytelling.

32:48 What sticks with me most is Mayor Holt's willingness to stand apart from our national political currents. He acknowledges that sometimes you just have to keep your head down, but he's brave in pursuing compromise and values of respect. I've used the word bravery in several of my episode commentaries lately, I guess because it seems we need more of it. Bravery in the face of polarization and bullying. Leadership isn't simply about rallying the faithful, it's about modeling good behavior for others. Even when it's inconvenient or uncomfortable. I'm Bob Safian. Thanks for listening.

33:33 Rapid response is a wait what original. I'm Bob Safian. Our executive producer is Eve Tro. Our producer is Alex Morris. Associate producer is Mashimaku Tonina. Mixing and Mastering by Aaron Bastonelli. Our theme music is by Ryan Holiday. Our head of podcast is Le Tal Malad. For more, visit rapidresponesshow.com.

33:58 Yeah.

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