David Segal: Building a $200m Business

0:00 There is no Shortcut for the work. Period. There's no magic pill. There's no magic elixir.

0:09 It's about habits. You have to do things even when you don't want to do them. you you have to Get up and go for that run, even though you don't want to. I mean it's really easy when you've had ten hours of sleep.

0:20 and and it's the sun is shining and it's and it's warm outside, it's really easy to go for that run or or or put on that smile or whatever it is. Like you know, that's that's where it's easy. Where it's hard is it's when it you know, you had six hours of sleep and you're not feeling great and you're feeling sluggish and and that's actually when you need to do it. Welcome to the Knowledge Project, a podcast about mastering the best of what other people have already figured out. So you can apply their insights to your life. I'm your host, Shane Parish. A quick favor to ask before we start, most people listening on Apple Podcasts or Spotify haven't yet hit the follow button.

1:13 If you can hit the follow button now, I would appreciate it. The more people who follow the show, the better the guests we can get. Thank you and enjoy the conversation. If you'd like access to the episode before everyone else, my thoughts and reflections at the end of episodes, member only episodes, hand edited transcripts, or you just want to support the show you love, join at fs.blog slash membership. Check out the show notes for a link.

1:38 Today my guest is David Siegel. David started David's Tea and grew it to over 200 million in annual sales before stepping away. David and I first met in the summer of 2020 on a lake and quickly realized we had a lot in common. We started running together a few times a week, chatting about business and life. Those runs helped me during Covid more than he could now. Many people like to dream about what they would do if they didn't need the money. And for Dave the answer was to start Firebelly T with his good friend Harley Finkelstein.

2:09 However, as you'll hear, he's doing a few things differently than he did at David's gate. We discussed the lowest point in his life and how he overcame it, starting and growing a business to two hundred million, the emptiness he felt after walking away from David's tea and then watching it flounder. Starting Firebelly T and what he's doing differently. And so much more. Before I met Dave, I wasn't really a tea drinker. I mean I dabbled occasionally with tea bags you find in grocery stores, but never really found it tasted that great. In fact I remember telling him it always tasted a bit like there were some faint chemicals in it.

2:47 And I remember where we were, we were right under a bridge, and he stopped and he looked at me and he just sort of like grabbed my shoulder and stopped me from running and he said, You've been drinking the wrong tea, my friend. And it turns out what I was tasting was a combination of poor quality tea, preservatives, and additives that are in most teas. The next day there was a slew of tea on my doorstep, and I've been drinking it ever since. In fact, my kids and I now make a pot of fire bellies after dinner mint nearly every night as we wind down. Not only does it help them sleep better, but it's a great ritual for us to connect and chat a little bit about the day. You'll walk away from this conversation inspired by Dave's stories, learning a lot about the real messiness of running a business in the weeds, and wanting to try some fire belly.

3:34 To that end, Dave was kind enough to offer all FS listeners 15% off all orders at Firebelly. Just go to Firebellyt.com and use the discount code SHANE15. It's time. To listen. and learn. Some of my favorite brands are on Shopify, including Gymshark, Alberts, Outway Socks, and Aeropress.

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4:50 Go to Shopify dot com slash shane now to grow your business no matter what stage you're in. I wanna start with What's the biggest lesson you've learned over the past year. And why?

5:05 Really that Entrepreneurship is in many ways A personal journey disguised as a business pursuit. And what I mean by that is so much of it is managing your own psychology. You know, everybody talks about playing the long game, right?

5:19 But it's easier said than done. There's so many swings to the game when you're building businesses. There's the lows are so low. The highs are so high as well. And it's learning how to be able to tolerate those lows.

5:33 So I started this podcast with with uh Harley Finkelstein's president of Shopify, uh, really good friend of both of ours. We interview these we're both Jewish, we interview these old Jewish guys who don't have a social media uh presence they're all of them are over seventy. And they've had these incredible careers and had enormous impact. not just building businesses and becoming incredibly successful, but also in giving back to their communities and and their philanthropic efforts.

5:58 And podcast called Big Shot. And they talk about the swings, the ups, the downs of their career But it's in montages, right? Like it's it's Like watching a Hollywood movie. You know, something that is actually two minutes is actually five to ten years.

6:12 And it's it feels like a lot longer when you're in it, living it. And so I really over the past year have really put a lot of emphasis in trying to manage my own psychology and get better. at when I have a crappy day or a crappy week or a crappy month Not

6:29 having an action bias or making big decisions or or just being able to kind of broaden my scope and my perspective. And look at it over the course of time. And really try and only make major evaluations when I'm in a good place mentally. and only on a a more uh a longer uh period of time, maybe once a year.

6:49 to to sort of take stock of where I am versus where I w I would like to be. Yeah, and and and be able to take a broader lens and not feel the lows. as much as I I sometimes do. Or the highs. I mean it's hard not to feel the highs, right?'Cause

7:02 You feel so good. So Uh, it's nice to celebrate. But you celebrate with the high five and then you go back to work. How do you learn how to do that, though? Like managing your psychology. That's such an important journey for every entrepreneur, for every person. Yeah. But nobody really teaches us how to go about doing that. No, we don't talk about that at all. Uh certainly not in school, right? Look, I mean it's really hard to do. I'd love to sit here and tell you that I've mastered it and I uh I I'd like to think I've gotten better at it. I I think taking care of yourself matters.

7:31 Uh, one of the reasons I love tea so much is I think it plays into that lifestyle. It's You know, in a world where there's Where there's so many uh highlight reels. and different products that will make you think you're gonna walk through walls and and promise you the moon. T is this product that has been

7:47 Around as old as the hills. I mean, it's been part of humanity for so long. It's drank in regions of the world where people live the longest. uh it's been studied for decades, uh not years, but decades by some of the top institutions in the world. Uh and and I like the connection T gives me to history. uh and not only the feeling that it gives me, you know, great green tea or or a great herbal tea in the evening

8:09 But I think that's part of being able to manage your psychology is is routines and rituals. Uh, I think another piece of it for me is is mindfulness and and meditation has played a ball in my life. I've been doing it now for Well over five years. Uh I do it consistently. And it really it it makes a huge difference. It it calms my nervous system down. It allows me to get a bit bit of distance. I mean, it's remarkable what ten minutes of breathing can do.

8:34 Yeah, and I exercise a lot and and I try and take care of myself. And I try and have a good time, you know, uh life short, and and I think it's important to celebrate Um Friday nights I like to remind myself uh just how much I have and how lucky I am and really really taken Um

8:51 really appreciate my life. uh and and taking all the good in my life I think that's really important. You know, when when Monday comes around, it's like it's like war, right? You're in the trenches, you know, you're you're driving hard, you're driving with a sense of urgency. I'm trying to build, I'm trying to build companies. my wife will always say, like, isn't there something good going on? And and and it's like, Well there is. It's just the good comes on Friday night in when I'm in the moment and I'm trying to build

9:17 uh I need to focus on how to improve and so I become hyper critical of myself. I sort of let that sense of urgency take over. And and let the feeling of we're not doing enough set in. Um, and then within reason try to temper that so that you know, you don't come off too strong with your team around you and

9:34 You don't end up trying to to move something forward that frankly just needs time. uh in order to to progress Sometimes that's the case, right? Sometimes the best action is no action. But then Friday nights it's really important, I think, to sit back

9:47 Enjoy. Uh smile. you know, give your kids a kiss. Uh uh you know, think about how how fortunate we are. Uh and really appreciate your life. You step back and step away. I have a saying that you um sort of reminded me of when you were talking, which is a lack of patience changes the outcome.

10:05 And sometimes when you try to get something faster than it naturally should happen, you actually end up in a worse place. Absolutely. I mean certainly in businesses that I'm building. I like to truly measure progress on an annual basis. I think that's the time to do it. Did you get better?

10:21 This year versus versus last year. Did the business grow this year versus last year? You may not be at the place you wanna be. But did you progress? And I've been in situations where I had to say no. you you didn't progress. And and I was in a business early in my career where I had to uh you know wave the white flag and and say I failed.

10:39 Talk to me about the annual thing versus daily. How do you use that? Do action daily. How do you set that? And sort of measure progress and consistency. Well keeping your eye on the annual sort of time frame.

10:54 When you're building a business The amount of decisions you have to make. is coming at you in mile a minute. It's it can be like Trying to drink through a fire hose. I think you develop in

11:04 Yeah. intuit sense of it. I don't know that I that I consciously sit there and think of every decision and ask myself, is this a monthly decision, a a daily decision, a weekly decision? I think I I usually ask myself Mm. Without

11:19 Consciously doing this. Two things. One Is this something that I can recover from easily. Meaning if I'm wrong about this, what's the impact of it?

11:31 Two What's the risk of doing nothing and waiting for more information? More often than not. The answer is Wait and get more information.

11:40 Certainly on big decisions like to go in a different direction with the product. to deviate in a in a big way from your marketing efforts. Um usually there it's it's try and get more information, try and get more information, try and get more information. Things like You're out of stock and you gotta pressure a supplier to ship it faster.

11:57 That's where the sense of urgency comes in and you're really you know, you start to pound the table and and and get people moving. And there's a lot of those, right? There's a lot of little decisions in a day where if we can do a little bit more to, you know, ship that extra order, handle that uh that last customer service request. Um those add up. So those small things where a sense of urgency

12:18 Allows you to offer better service, better product. uh become better at what you do. Those are the small things, right? And and those things I think you do wanna have a an incredible sense of urgency around. The bigger things like You know, should we be selling This product or that product.

12:35 Or presenting the brand this way or that way. I think those things you wanna you wanna analyze more on on, you know, a monthly basis or quarterly basis, or in some cases an annual basis. So it's like daily you want to focus on the micro things that move the needle, but Totally as you step back, you focus on the more macro stuff. A hundred percent, right? I mean, any any successful entrepreneur will tell you this like you you gotta be in the details. I mean, over time as the business grows, you you develop a team that you trust to be in the details, but even then it's it's trust but verify. Uh, here's a great example. Like what is Air Canada or Delta Airlines or or American Airlines? It's not the CEO. Nobody thinks about the CO when they think of these airlines. So people say, Oh

13:14 uh that airline's the worst, right? I mean no one really likes airlines. Well, what are they really saying you? They're not saying most of them couldn't even tell you who the CEO is or the management team are. They're saying that that individual person that I dealt with at the customer service counter. is it was was not nice to me or didn't leave me with a great feeling or or or didn't didn't help me with what I needed helped in that moment. You know, the business happens at the transactional level. Any business. That's where it happens, where the money is exchanged for the goods.

13:41 And I think often the bigger the company gets, we kind of forget that. But really that's what it is. I mean it's it's It's a series of small transactions that add up. But you need to continually get good at those small transactions. And those small transactions often require urgency. You know, I used to sell running shoes in high school.

13:59 Uh, I loved it. I worked at a company called Athlete's World, which is the equivalent of footlocker. Okay. And I I just loved it. I loved the product knowledge. I love learning about the shoes. But you know, my sense of urgency and making sure every customer was helped before they walk out of the store. Now I got paid on commission. So and I was 16 years old and I think I made twelve bucks an hour at the time and minimum wage was like five. So

14:20 I thought I was rolling in the dough, right? But I I operated with urgency. I there was no customer that left the store without me talking to them. There was I was all over it and I outsold everyone. I was more into it. I I cared about it more. I spoke to more customers in a day than they would But That's what a business is. It's it's how do you get

14:41 The people on the front lines operating with urgency to add value to the customer and do that over and over again. And I think that's where the urgency really plays in. is is sort of creating that culture where people care about their work and care about the customers that they're dealing with. enough to service them uh uh quickly and efficiently. Can you make somebody care or do you hire people that w naturally care? And a mentor that used to talk about this, he call it

15:05 Will versus skill. Sometimes they have skill, but they don't have a will. And sometimes it's vice versa. You get people who really care and and work really, really hard, but can't really move the needle because they just don't have the skill. You can teach skill more than you can will. I do I do believe that you

15:21 Caring about your work is something that No one can teach you. What to do but I think sometimes you develop the the Bug for it, right? If you You develop a love for what you do over time.

15:34 Um, so sometimes I think it is about patience, you know. I don't know that anybody can can teach you how to have a spark and and a sense of urgency, but I do think you can cultivate someone's spark and their sense of urgency. But ultimately it's on the person themselves to to to really tap into what makes them get up in the morning and want to achieve. You mentioned details. One of the commonalities I find between exceptional people who've done exceptional things is they're always in the weeds. And yet there's this sort of cultural backlash against being in the details and everybody sort of wants to manage with abstraction. Right. Talk to me about learning about the details and being in the weeds and why that's important to you.

16:14 Well, I mean it goes back to what we were just talking about, which is which is you you You know, you you don't you never want to have Ivory Tower syndrome. Where where you run a business Uh and you're not connected to your customers. Where you're sitting in an ivory tower somewhere issuing decrees

16:29 Having said that, it is a balance. One of the things I learnt building David's T was the difference between running a militia versus running an army. When you have a small company And you're running'em uh it's like a militia, right? Like you know, you got five stores.

16:41 and you wanna run a sale or you wanna you wanna do some kind of marketing campaign or or whatever it is that you're trying, whatever initiative that you're taking on. And you have a meeting and you say, Okay, let's do it and and it's super easy because You know, you say turn left and then m everyone hears you, the malicious there's five of you, right? Or ten of you or whatever, and everybody turns left. But when the company grows, you become like an army.

17:05 And when you say turn left you get broken telephone if you don't have the right processes and procedures. So I think what you stand for as a company should should never change, but how you do things as a company should never stop changing. And I do think as a company scales, it's really important to understand how to put in place the right processes and procedures not to stifle creativity Or to stifle the people you want to empower the people on the front lines and make sure that they can still make

17:33 independent decisions. I mean, we've all experienced as a customer, there's nothing worse than hearing, I'm sorry, that's our policy. You know, when you when you don't allow the people on the front to think for themselves and and they become robotic about how they deal with people, that's Oftentimes the beginning of the end. But you do wanna have processes and procedures to be able to facilitate the flow of information. To and from the

17:53 the front lines effectively. So that you are able to connect to the weeds. Without Sort of jumping in and not allowing people to spread their wings and fly. And I think it's a delicate balance, right? You, as a leader, you want to be. Have your h finger on the pulse.

18:08 and and understand what's going on at the the lowest level of your company where customers are interacting with your team or your products. But you also don't want to micromanage to the point where the people who you've empowered to to do the job aren't able to do it and be celebrated for their own successes or learn from their own failures. Where did your drive come from? Like what were you like as a kid? It seems very abnormal that a sixteen year old at Footlocker would be so

18:38 Driven and motivated. I loved it. I I loved working from a very, very young age. I was a bit my wife says this about my son and I I think I was the same way. I was a man of action with no plan. I remember I really wanted a skating rink in our backyard. We had like this tiny little backyard. And my parents are like

18:54 No. So I was really stubborn. I'd go and I'd start taking little You know, like the the sour cream container. uh uh I'd wash it out and put water in it and start dumping it on the lawn and dumping it on the lawn. And my parents are watching me do this and they're thinking, what is he doing? But I kept doing it and I kept doing it. And for hours on end, I'm dumping one little sour cream container worth of water on the back lawn. And my finally my father's like, this is crazy. The kid's never gonna build the rink this way. And you know, but then they started helping me and then my brother started helping and then here we are as his family.

19:26 uh with our hoses out there spraying the the back line. Sure enough we have a skating rink, you know? And and I was a bit like that as a kid. I mean I I wanted to work before I was allowed to work Uh I had a paper root at a very young age. I went on and I worked at Wendy's, I was the fry guy. I think the breaking point for me was I had to take out the garbage and I was a small little fourteen year old. So you had to throw it over the fence, right? To get it into the bin. They had the the f the guard for the animals and sort of fence around the garbage bins. And I I couldn't quite get it over the fence and so it it sort of teetered on the top of the wall and then kind of came down to my face.

20:00 And I was like that's it, that's I'm out of here and I I think I was probably the youngest person they hired at uh athlete world, which is like the footlocker. I wrote my resumes. I I banged on a lot of doors and And that was just who I was. What were you like in school?

20:15 I didn't take school all that seriously until Yeah. later on I mean, I knew I had to do well enough to get into a good university. But for me university, I was excited to go to go socialize and have a great time. Um, it wasn't until I met my wife where I really got it together.

20:31 I I mean I got into a great program, I went to McGill University. But she she She studied hard. I mean, she became a neuropsychologist Harvard educated and You know, she brought out the best in me. I on by my fourth year I I became an honor student and and I started to work a lot harder.

20:46 Is that'cause you wanted to impress her? I think if I wanted to hang out with her, I had to go to the library. So you know, I mean, she was in the library. So yeah, I mean, I wanted to see her. I wanted to be with her. So I kinda just just followed her and she w she didn't you know, she didn't I used to go out a lot. and and and probably party too much, but she wasn't into that, so you know, she mattered more to me than party. So I ended up uh hanging out with her more often and and she she brought out some better habits to me.

21:10 What was your what did your kitchen smell like on like Friday nights growing up? I mean I I had a very regular N upper middle class, middle class upbringing. My mom had a uh a few different jobs. She was a teacher, she taught deaf kids for a while, then she became an artist.

21:26 Uh, my dad was a psychologist and and uh started working at at the hospitals and then had his own private practice. He worked very, very hard. Uh I I certainly learned my work ethic from my dad. He was up at at five forty five every day. First patient was at seven, last patient was at six, uh, never took a lunch break. Uh um we always had Friday nights weren't dramatically different than than Wednesday nights. We we because my dad didn't really travel for business, we always had family dinners. Uh, and they're really nice growing up. I mean, I was very lucky I had my grandparents in my life. They would, I guess, come over on Friday nights and And we'd often barbecue a lot of a lot of steak and this is before red meat.

22:01 We knew red meat was wasn't so great for you and so Big steak family. We do a lot of steak. And I had a nice upbringing. I mean, I had a nice family around me, but entrepreneurship and business. Wasn't really that You know, it was interesting, I had this extended family in Montreal who had been very successful in business. Uh, and I had this rich history.

22:20 Um, that I really wasn't in touch with at the time. education was certainly strongly encouraged, but You know, I didn't have access to CEOs. And to to uh type A business people in my life early in my life. I I started to meet them later in my life, once I went to Montreal uh and went to McGill and started to meet some of my extended family. Once you learn more about your extended family and its history of entrepreneurship.

22:44 And making fortunes, losing fortunes, remaking them. Yeah. Did you feel more like you fit in more? the way the stories as I got older The way the stories were told to me was like an episode of succession. You know, my my my family build a business called Peerless Clothing.

22:59 And uh, you know, it was filled with this one being mad at that one, and not talking to this one and feeling slighted. And it was basically uh three brothers. The oldest one started it with the dad. uh the middle one uh came in with the elder one and was kind of the inside guy. The elder one then then once he had made it decided to go to Japan. And in those days when you went to Japan it was like bon voyage, right? Like there was no we're talking the we're in the forties and fifties right now And so my my grandfather got brought in Uh he was a tall uh salesman type guy and br the business was not doing well at that time and and they brought it back

23:36 uh together. And Peerless Clothing for for people listening was they they manufacture they're still around today. It's a it's quite a large business and they manufacture clothing for, you know Pierre Cardin, Hugo Boss, and Calvin Klein. And and anyway, my grandfather ended up uh the middle brother uh died and there was a fight over shares. And long story short, The son of of of Mm. my br my grandfather's eldest brother who was adopted

24:00 uh came in and ran the business and actually did an incredible job with it and and took it to a whole new level. Uh and his and was quite a a successful businessman and philanthropist. Uh, and then from that, um, another a cousin of mine, my dad's first cousin, went off and started a c a company called Le Chateau, which for years he basically brought the Carnaby Street look to Canada. So I became very close with him, uh once I had went to McGill. Didn't really know him that well before that and later in life he ended up backing me and David's team we built it together.

24:29 Um, but yeah, I I sort of learnt about these stories and and I would say in my late teens, sort of as I was getting ready to go to McGill, and then I would hear stories about my my Great grandparents who came over with nothing and were peddlers. uh in the countryside of Quebec. And uh one of my my grandmother's father built up a big woolens business in in uh and then lost it all in the Great Depression, buying on margin like everybody else, and then made it back. Uh my grandmother used to tell stories about going to school in a carriage and then having to quit school the next day and and walk to the factory, you know, kind of thing.

25:02 Um, so I did grow up with these stories later in life, but my my entrepreneurial drive came in before that. I think those stories just validated it for me. and and and had me even more excited for my my uh my entrepreneurial career ahead. Talk to me about David's tea. Where did so so I'm guessing like After university, you followed Emily to Boston. No.

25:22 So Emily didn't get into Boston till much later. Uh um we had a lot of ups and downs together. Emily uh didn't get into her her PhD program at first and was gonna go do something else and then decided to wait and reapply to McGill uh PhD and then got in. So we were in Montreal after we both graduated McGill. We we were living together in A tiny basement apartment in Montreal. And I started a concept called Fitting Room Central, while most of my friends went off to

25:49 uh Goldman Sachs or Procter Gamble. Um I I developed so because I had worked I worked in the buying department of Le Chateau for a few summers and I I sold, as I was telling you, running shoes and clothing a little bit as well. So I understood that business uh certainly at a a a base level.

26:07 And I developed a concept called fitting room central because when buyers would buy clothing Remember, when you when you're in clothing or anything with inventory, your biggest risk is your inventory buy. Right. You you you're deciding what to buy in a season, you're hoping it sells, but you're deciding in advance you know, what you think people are gonna like. So Often what large clothing companies will do is they'll test.

26:27 So they'll if you have a hundred store company, let's say You'll buy for five or ten stores and see how it goes there before you take the inventory risk of of buying for the the the rest of the stores. And we'd have these buying meetings where they're evaluating these tests and they'd evaluate whether something sold or it didn't sell. But they had no idea why it was selling or why it wasn't. Uh everybody would speculate on that. So I developed a system.

26:49 uh for the fitting rooms. And the idea being when you try on when you buy clothing, you actually do it in two steps. First you evaluate the look of something on your uh sorry, the look of something on the rack, then you evaluate the fit of that item on your body, right? What we thought is, hey, if we can capture the conversion rate at the fitting room, we'll be able to tell you if something's being tried on a lot, but it's not converting into the fitting room, you might want to check the fit. And vice versa, if something's not being tried on a lot, but when it does try get tried on it it sells. Well, you know, the fit's great, but the look may be off. It was a little bit ahead of its time. I mean, we're talking two thousand five, right? But when you think about e commerce businesses today.

27:23 This is exactly what we do, right? We monitor traffic and conversion. And then we had ways of capturing the fitting room being this point of interaction with the customer. You can capture feedback. Interesting idea, right? Everybody you tell that to And I'm sure many of your listeners are like, Oh, it sounds interesting. Well, like interesting's a great word in a classroom. But it's a terrible word in business. Uh, you know, you want to hear things like when you can you deliver.

27:44 And we would I was really good at getting these meetings with buyers at at Macy's or Victoria's Secret or The Gap. I'd write these handwritten letters to Les Wexner of of uh Limited Brands and and I'd get a response and and we'd have all kinds of meetings and But It didn't progress enough, you know, it was a nice to have, not a must have. And it just wasn't going anywhere and f you know, I'm sitting in this

28:08 Basement apartment. while most of my friends are starting to to uh accelerate their careers And my wife who was my girlfriend at the time is like okay, enough. Like, you know, you you don't make any income, you need a job. So I I uh I decided to call it quits, which is a with a heavy heart, and I approached

28:26 My dad's cousin, who had started Le Chateau, this clothing business that had become very big in Canada. And he was looking to take a step back. from that business. He was in his seventies at the time. And um he said look I I'll I'll I'll start a little private equity shop and you'll come help me.

28:43 And I said, Great. And I think he paid me like Forty thousand dollars, I mean a nominal salary. And Uh I figured uh you you sort of fake it till you make it. I bought a book. I bought what Warren Buffett looks for in investments. You know, if I'm gonna be an investor, I should learn. The tea thing kinda clicked for me, you know, I always like tea.

29:00 Certainly growing up. Uh, I was never a coffee guy. And I remember being in a tea shop in Montreal. uh off of uh Saint Denis, which is this really cool street. Sort of Asian inspired tea house.

29:12 And we went in and I started to think to myself, I'm like wow, you know There's no size, no color like there is in fashion. It doesn't go bad like a turkey sandwich. It's leaves in a cup, so the margins are good. You can operate out of small spaces and We call anything you put in hot and cold water that's not coffee.

29:29 tea in North America. So it's like cooking, right? The the combinations of what you can create are endless. It's a war and buffet business. We should do tea. And we sort of looked around for one to invest in and I got more and more into it. I started to develop a love for the product. Finally I think either I turn to my cousin or he turned to me and I said, Look, let's just do it ourselves. Like we'll we'll I'll build it and you'll back me. Uh, and it was a great combination of youth and experience, right? Like the way I like to describe it is without him I probably would have

29:56 ten, fifteen stores today and without me he'd have zero. So It really worked out well. And away we went. We opened a store on Queen Street. And it it it didn't work at first. I mean it sort of worked. Um, but it really took a bit of time. I remember the summer

30:10 I got married, which is about a year we had four stores. It was about eight months after we started. a year after we started and it wasn't going that great. I mean We weren't doing well enough that summer for the business to to uh survive. Uh and I was really worried about it. But then You know, we just kept getting better and better at it and it and it just it it it finally caught and people started to get into it and

30:32 I think what we did that was very different is we took a commodity and we uncommoditized it. When you think about T You know, it's this incredible drink that's it's the second biggest drink in the world next to water. It's just ironically in North America, we're not that into it. But it's this

30:48 Timeless ritual that Everyone has a T story from when they were younger. Uh somewhere in their family someone drank tea and with With David's tea, we created this sensory experience in the store where you come in and you're smelling tea and you're tasting tea and you're talking about tea. And it became this very unique experience.

31:06 And I think that's one of the reasons it worked. And and um Yeah, it really grew from there. How many stores did you guys end up with? When I uh sold my stake in David's T in twenty sixteen, we had two hundred stores. about two hundred million in sales, about thirty million in Ebida.

31:21 Uh it was a pretty nice business. How does it feel now to watch that? Flounder. Not great and I've I've I actually tried to buy it back at one point. With being capital.

31:33 I've moved on. I mean, I I I I hope I wish David C well and and I'm very excited about what we're doing with Firebelly Tea, which is my new tea company. You know, while I was developing David's T, I always had a private stash. Right, what sold at David's T were these heavily flavored teas, and that's just what the market wanted. But my palate developed because I I would drink it every day all the time, right? And and and I would travel these incredible tea regions and I would I would meet with our tea blenders and and I'd learn kind of how to create an amazing tea and the right combinations of different ingredients and

32:04 as when I left, I started to realise, wow, you know I love tea. I love creating tease and I love creating the products that go around with it. And I would curate these tea collections from my friends. I mean, Harley, um, who's the president of Shopify and and a close friend Uh, I got him really into tea because when I first met him, he's like, you know, I'm drinking way too much coffee, I'm not sleeping well, I get the jitters, I get headaches.

32:27 I'm like, Well, why aren't you drinking green tea in the afternoon? Like, I never thought of that. I'm like, oh my God, green tea is amazing. He's like, Wow, it's kind of bitter, right? I'm like Well, yeah, because most people drink the equivalent of of folders for coffee, right? Coffee went through these phases where we went from first wave to second wave to third wave, and people got fancier and fancier in the types of coffee they drank. And T In many ways hasn't

32:48 you know, David's team made some headways and and certainly had had slightly better product, but I think The really good stuff is still is still new to most people. And that's what Firebelly has become about. You know, it's in curating these collections for Harley and other ones of my friends. Uh I brought some to you and and and uh got you into it a little bit. You know, as as we develop

33:10 Uh getting people into these amazing teas and and you know, all of a sudden how are these drinking green tea in the afternoon, no more headaches, no more jitters. Uh because the caffeine in tea is very different, right? It there's L-theanine in tea as well. So Whereas with coffee you get that big spike and crash. You don't really get that in the same way with T. You get more of a sustained energy. Uh L thinine modulates the impact of the caffeine on your uh in your bloodstream on your body.

33:33 Um and it really creates a a a nice calm energy and a nice focus. And then you have herbal teas in the evening that are fantastic. Uh, and whether it's you want help sleeping or with digestion, whether it's ginger or And so The teas that we create with Firebelly, we don't use any of these flavorings, which is kind of the the secret in the tea business. If you go label hunting at the grocery store,

33:54 Everything has either natural flavor, artificial flavor. And it's not that it'll kill you, but A natural flavor just means it was derived from a plant or animal source, but it ends up in a laboratory where about ninety percent of what goes into these flavors are preservatives and additives to go unlisted on the label. We have these all the time. They're not they're not necessarily bad for you, but They create kind of a monotone flavor. It's like watermelon chewing gum, right? Right. You get that burst of flavor, but then it dissipates. Uh it's very similar with flavored teas when they're using flavorings.

34:22 Um, whereas, you know, instead of using vanilla flavoring at Firebelly we use real Madagascar vanilla. Uh we use really high quality ginger, really high quality turmeric, and And it makes a difference uh in in the quality of the tea. And And so I think Firebelly became sort of this brand where I got to create the tees I love.

34:38 And sort of share my private stash with the world. And then You know, you can't put a Ferrari engine in a Winnebago, so we had to create the accessories to go with it. And so we we created, you know, like a stop infusion travel mug. I mean, you think about accessories. It's all designed for coffee drinkers, but like I wanted to put tea drinkers first. So we created this this travel mug where you can stop and start the infusion with really high quality loose leaf tea. You can make hotter iced tea. It's 100% leak proof. It's power coated metal.

35:05 I mean I I get obsessive about all these small details. So I'm having a lot of fun with it and building up my my sort of chapter two. Act two and T with Firebelly. I never really drank tea until I met you. And then now it's become like this nightly ritual, uh, with my kids, which is kind of weird. When you think about it, right? Like One of my kids' favorite tea is

35:25 uh after dinner mint that you guys make. Yeah. And he just loves this. Yeah. Like he'll have four or five cups at night. You know, while he's doing homework and he's sort of like he'll make a teapot. Yeah. He's 13. My kids too, they get into it, right? Because there's so many different caffeine free teas and and so many different flavor profiles. Whether it's it's a sweet ginger or a chocolate tea. um, or a really nice peppermint eucalyptus tea, apple, chamomile, right? There's so many different combinations. So kids can get into it too. That's what sort of drove me to create Firebellies that everyone I would show really high quality loose leaf tea to And and

36:03 Demonstrate. how nice a tea ritual is. would would continue on with it. I mean they'd get into it and I'm like, well, you know, I want to share this with everyone. I really want it to be something special. I mean this isn't something you can find at the grocery store, right? uh it's it's it's much higher quality tea than people are used to. And I think You know, why not? T should have its time.

36:24 It's it's such a it's so big in Europe and other places in the world. It's just North America that for some reason is a bit late to the party. And and um I I just think once they realize how amazing high quality tea is. It it it has its place in our in our daily ritual. the world is completely different now than it was when you started David's T very much so. Yes. So what are the differences you see in the tea space? What lessons can you take from David's T? And where's it like harder now and different? To contrast it, when I started David's T, uh, there was no Instagram.

36:58 There is no Shopify. You had server rooms. And if you want to build a website, you know, you called A website guy, like right, that's how we used to build websites. You found a friend of a friend who is usually a kid who knew how to build a website in HTML. And The store a physical retail store is much more about distribution. than it was discovery. I mean it was about both, but nowadays you don't need a store to distribute, right?

37:21 і комерс ва A tiny, tiny percentage of the business back then. It's exploded on the scenes. It was very different. I think the the space is much more competitive now. There's a lot of

37:34 products out there that claim lots and lots of benefits. But I think some of the fundamentals of building a business haven't changed. So You know, everybody loves to to talk about what's changing and and disrupting and But I think it's also important to look at what doesn't change and having a great quality product.

37:53 doesn't change. And I like to put my energy into that. And one of the things I love about T is that it's so timeless. T has been around for hundreds and hundreds of years and and drink in in cultures all over the world Uh for different reasons. It has proven benefits versus some of these other products that come on the market that that make claims that have not been studied.

38:16 It's obviously harder to compete with the fad de jour. But I I wanna build a hundred year company. Uh I wanna I wanna build something that People can trust. uh um and that isn't gonna waver. in some of the principles that that it stands for. And so

38:34 What we love about loose leaf tea is it's it's higher quality Product. You get the whole leaf, you get to watch it expand, you get the full health benefits. uh it becomes this pause in your day And I think that's just that's what we're about. We're about we're we're we've tend to attract people who are

38:50 Type A I mean they're not necessarily entrepreneurs, but they're entrepreneurial in what they do. I think it's for people who are on the go, who need a moment to themselves or or a social moment with friends. I mean it's Tuesday night You don't always want to have alcohol, right? Like sometimes you just wanna have a Can make you a tea, like we'll have a great tea and a great conversation. So I don't think those principles change in terms of David's T. I mean, David's T was a fashion brand. It was about

39:14 smell like people were discovering wow, you can have tea with vanilla and you can have Tea with almond and and it turns pink in your cup, and there's one that's strawberry, and and this was very new, right? And Um and it was all about about you know, smelling it and it was just such a new phenomenon. It we went from m Earl Grey and Mint and Chamomile into all these Plethra of flavors.

39:36 And I think with Firebelly it's a little bit different. We're saying Look. We don't do things that you can only do for with flavoring, like we don't do peach tea. Because you can't make a peach tea without flavouring. Um, but we do really high quality freeze dried berries. And what has changed about business is there's more of an opportunity to take a niche.

39:54 And really get a thousand true fans with it. I think it's easier with modern day media to talk to niche audiences. And so we want to be really good at servicing a customer base who really cares about having an incredible tea ritual, really high quality product. And and really just focus on what we do best. And I think I think that's a little bit different than than how it used to be. I think it's easier to find Your audience uh at scale.

40:19 than it was then you weren't able to do that in two thousand seven, right? In the same way. Uh, I think that really changes how you think about the business. And you're in physical locations, Macy's and Erwan? We're in Erewhon, uh, which is a really hot grocery store right now in LA. It's the it's you know, we don't wanna uh be in in some of the more mainstream uh grocers um But air one really is a special place.

40:41 Uh we're yeah, we're in Bloomingdales. Um we're we're we do some of our gift assortment in Crate and Barrel. Yeah, and it's mostly direct to consumer. So why those places? T makes the perfect gift. Right. So we tend to perform well in We took our best sellers and put it in error one. I think everyone has a more discerning customer and and appreciates

41:00 Uh uh really high quality loose CT. So I think everyone works for us. And and we've been, you know, we've we've been one of the top performers in our category so far. And I think Bloomingdale is in Crate, you know, they they're their gift you you go there for Christmas to buy uh Christmas gifts and and tea makes a great Christmas gift. And so well these great gift boxes with our our accessories and our tees together uh and and it sort of works really well there in November, December. Um when you think about it, you can give T

41:28 to anyone. You can give it to your mother, you can give it romantically, you can give it to a co worker. uh it really does make a great gift. I mean the message you're sending the person Is here's something that's good for your health and well being. Here's something that can be a break from your day, or it can be social with your family, your friends, your colleagues. It's a funny thing, everyone has tea in their cupboard. But but it just sort of sits at the back and gathers dust.

41:50 Uh, and that was one of the things with Firebelly, you know, we wanted to make sure that it was well designed. We originally put it in these boxes that they're like books on a bookshelf, and we did that. We want it to be on your counter front and center, uh, and it should look good too. Uh and so we we've we've approached it from from that angle. Um, but we haven't approached it as a as a fashion product. I mean You know, with David's T, that was a big thing, right? Like it's spring, summer, winter, fall. It's like our new fall collection, our new spring collection. It's pumpkinness, it's Well, no, like we don't really think about tea that way. Like real tea drinkers drink tea every day. Like it's fantastic. Like Firebell is a brand for for for tea drinkers. for people that really love it. And and uh and that's what we're servicing.

42:29 What failures have you had that you cherish the most up until this point? It's funny, you know, I don't often think about my failures. They just become part of who I am. Uh as I go forward, but

42:43 You know, if you're afraid to fail. Forget it. Go get a job. Failure takes on many forms, right? There's failure in that It just Like I failed.

42:52 It didn't work. I was a failure. And that happened to me when I started that fitting room company right out of of college. And it straight up did not work. I had to uh hang my head down and lick my wounds and move on and And you know, as is often the case in life, you have to go down in order to go up a lot of the time.

43:10 And and I had to do that in that case. And I had to to it it it humbles you, I think. And and I wore that one uh uh in a big way, you know, especially at a time in in life where everybody's trying to flex in their advancement in their career, right, as young professionals. Uh, here I was with this major failure right out of the gate. And failure can also be in the form of it's taking too long. I think we often don't think of that as failure, but like

43:35 Mad Radish, which is a healthy fast food concept I have in in Canada. You know, we were we had figured it out for for the lunch market. And we were accelerating in five day a week office stores and then the pandemic came. And we almost went out of business and we were failing in a in a big way.

43:51 uh and I had invested way more money than than I thought I would have to and and it had taken far longer than I thought it would. Um but it wasn't working and and I almost stopped and we almost said, You know what, let's sell it for ten cents on the dollar and move on. But We didn't, and we stuck with it. And now it's in a much better place and and we got better at at the dinner menu. We developed a two day part menu. So we got we got really good at the nuances of that business, right?

44:18 And we did that through failures. I mean we just we kept failing. We've we failed on menu development, we failed on real estate, we took bad stores, we we figured out what not to do to the point where here we are today. And I'm I'm very fortunate I have a uh a couple of partners in that business, one of whom is the CEO of the company is doing an incredible job. Uh I was the CEO of the business and then when I started Firebell and uh uh uh and I realized T is really where I wanted to to go back to. Um, he took over. He was our our head of operations and

44:45 He's done an incredible job and and now the business is starting to grow again and we've become uh, I think the number one player in Canada for healthy fast food and and I'm really excited about the growth there. But we I mean, we failed. I mean there was you know, we we failed and we failed and we failed and we failed until Finally, uh uh we started to succeed. I mean It's a great expression, a story told by one of our guests on Big Shot. His name's Peter May, he's an activist investor. He was Nelson Pelts' partner.

45:10 He tells a story about going around and trying to market his first company. uh and and getting a valuation that was far below what they wanted and they're yelling at the investment bankers, you know, we just did this whole road show. What do you mean it's not worth X? You know, we And the guy goes, Kid You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit.

45:27 And sometimes that's Actually what you have to do. You have to make chicken salad out of chicken shit. And and that takes time and you have to fail. You have to be honest about the fact that you have chicken shit right now and and and really work on on somehow turning it into chicken salad. And and so I've had to do that a lot, I mean And even David Stee, you know, it was a success, but a big success.

45:48 But then it it it faltered uh several times along the way. And then and then when I left Uh I mean it fell apart. You know, I mean, uh I sold my my stake in it in twenty sixteen and and you know, today it's it's worth a a fraction of what it was and and the market moved on and the company missed it. And and it's not easy. Business is really hard.

46:09 Uh, and that's why, you know, you have to be ready to keep showing up and You really have to love the journey of it more than the end result because if if all you want is that moment where you you you make the big score or you spike you know, that that moment you think you're gonna have where you spike the ball and you have that big score, well I actually went through one of the biggest depressions in my life. after I sold my my stake in David's T. I thought that's what I was playing for. I thought I was playing for this

46:34 big success where uh uh you know the other side of the rainbow. And it was great. I mean, I had financial independence for the first time in my life. But I lost I lost my sense of purpose.

46:44 And I had no plan. I didn't think about the day after David's T. I was so busy trying to build it. And we actually don't talk about this a lot. uh in entrepreneurship, which is, you know, the struggle is so difficult to get to a place where you're successful. But what happens once you're successful? And what if you do sell your company? And now what? Right. And what how do you derive meaning in your life? And and you I mean, you're not just gonna go play shuffleboard when you're you know, thirty five years old.

47:07 I went to a dark place in my life and and and uh I didn't know what to do with myself. And and uh and it took me a while to reinvent myself and and sort of tap back into the kid I was that you know that loved entrepreneurship and building businesses and I did I did tap back into that and that was a uh a journey on its own and and In many ways, not preparing for life after David's tea was a failure. Did you recognize that you were depressed? How? Oh yeah.

47:34 I was really depressed. Like like I went through you know, I don't I don't talk about this often. But I was I was in a really bad spot. And it was a weird thing. Like I felt guilty about it because like wow, what right do I have to be depressed? I just I lived I just had the dream that everybody plays for, which is a an exit in in a major company.

47:51 uh and financial independence, but I I was I was very upset. I I had some health issues and It's hard to know whether the health issues were from the from the depression or or the stress of building it or or just, you know, what came first the health issues of the depression. But No, I had to I had to uh develop better habits in my lifestyle. I had to develop a a better perspective on life.

48:12 Um there's a lot of stress. There is a fair amount of internal uh uh fighting in the company. between my original partners, the private equity group It wasn't an environment where everyone was just focused on the customer and adding value for the customer. I mean there's there's a bit too much. uh uh in internal conflict which is One of the reasons I I felt it was time for me to move on.

48:30 And I think I never had a chance to process all that and and deal with that and And I had to really Understand When it no longer becomes about the money, you really have to think about what you're doing and why you're doing it. you take away that factor that it allows you to drown out all the other things in life that are that are really important. Like

48:48 meaning and and being able to to really appreciate the journey and and I didn't really understand those pieces in my life. uh early on and it just became a singular focus where how can I build this and make money. What would you say to somebody who's depressed right now?

49:05 There is no Shortcut for the work. Period. There's no magic pill. There's no magic elixir.

49:13 It's about habits. You have to do things even when you don't want to do them. I I don't know where I I heard this story, but I think it was a guy who had survived the the internment camps during the war. and where they were being tortured and and

49:27 It w he said that it was the people who Uh lost hope. That that didn't make it. It was the people that had hope, but not expectations that did, right? So they knew they'd get out of there, but they didn't have an expectation on when. And I think depression is is like that as well. You you have to

49:46 Get up and go for that run even though you don't want to. Do that twenty minute sit, uh med you know, breathing exercise even though you don't want to. Work on your eating habits or your your you know, your your your rituals, whatever they may be. I mean And it's all kinds of different rituals in your life. It's important to develop I I'm using the word ritual loosely here, routines, habits, whatever you want to call them. when you're in a dark place, they're even more important. Амісви із авже.

50:14 And and it the sun is shining and it's and it's warm outside, it's really easy to go for that run or or or put on that smile or whatever it is. Like you know, that's that's where it's easy. Where it's hard. is it's when it you know, you had six hours of sleep and you're not feeling great and you're feeling sluggish and and that's actually when you need to do it. The doing is what matters. And it's like life life just is like that. And Um I I learned that from my father, you know, I mean he he got up early and and stay late and put in the work, and there is no substitute for the work. Don't matter how smart you are.

50:47 You have to put in the work. It's so interesting'cause the parallels between sort of depression and being successful at your job, your career, life. They map each other, right? Which is like you have to do it when you don't feel like it. Yes. And that's when it matters the most. And you sort of have to have that will'cause everybody loses the battle with willpower. So the routines, the rituals, they carry you through when you don't feel like doing it. It's like I don't feel like going on the Peloton today, but I do it every day. So I have to get on and go. And make every day day one. You know, we have a habit of beating ourselves up, right? Like

51:21 The idea of being compassionate with yourself is really important. You miss a day. So what? Like in medit in meditation it's it's You know, come back to the breath, come back to the breath and and

51:31 You go down a rabbit hole where you have these almost like blackout moments where your your mind just carries you into thought. And when you first start meditating, most people when they first start meditating, they do the same thing. They sit down for 20 minutes and But don't do that. Sit down for like three minutes or four minutes or five minutes. Like build up, right? You're building a muscle. building that that focus muscle. But when we have these sort of blackout moments in meditation where our mind wanders and we don't even know where it goes. And then all of a sudden we come back and we're like, oh yeah, I wasn't focused on my breathing or whatever visual exercise I had, we have a tendency to beat ourselves up. Like, oh I can't believe I could you know you do it mentally and We're human, you're gonna make mistakes. Like

52:07 You don't have to always get it right. You're allowed to slip up. But just keep restarting. There is no moment in life that Where everything's just perfect. Like life is dynamic. It's not static.

52:18 Right. It's it's you're always renegotiating with yourself and and it it is an ever changing thing. And I think It's just How do you work on on bringing the right attitudes uh into it each and every day.

52:31 I'm gonna go back to twenty sixteen, you get this fairly big payday. Yeah. What are the lessons that you wish you knew then? About money. That you know now. First of all, money doesn't

52:44 By meaning. Number one, you have to money can help facilitate A lot of things. but you you have to know who you are and what you want. That's really, really important and that has nothing to do with money.

52:56 buying nice things is is gonna be fleeting. I think we all know this intuitively. And yet so many people do this. And I'm not saying don't buy nice things. It's always nice to buy nice things. But it's important to understand that in and of itself is not gonna give you meaning a really nice car, nice watch, or nice house, or whatever, it's gonna be cool for for a minute, but

53:17 uh eventually it's gonna go away. I think I once heard this from a friend, you know, the secret to life is Uh something to do. Someone to love. And something to look forward to. Money can help facilitate parts of that, especially the something to look forward to.

53:31 But but you have to tap into deeper meaning on on what it is, uh what gets you excited on an ongoing basis. For me, it's building businesses. But I wish coming out of that experience of of making money and becoming financially independent, I wish I'd taken a little bit more time To think about how I wanted to do that and where I wanted to do that. I think I was a bit too I felt I needed to get back in the game very quickly. I s I think I I I set an artificial timeline. Like I think sometimes we set these artificial timelines with ourselves.

54:01 And it's already at least in my case, it was my ego. I felt I had to be back in or or I was gonna be a one hit wonder. You know, and and I mean all that's BS. I mean

54:12 There is no one way, there is no one story. I I'm now in my my early forties and I I we uh we love telling ourselves the stories of people that validate our narratives, right? Like so I'm like, Oh, Sam Walton didn't start till he was in his forties, or like, you know, Warren Buffett made most of his money after fifty five. I mean All of these things are are just ways of telling ourselves that we have more life ahead of us. And the truth is we do. And there is no one way. You can always find a story that validates your narrative. I think in some ways that's kind of healthy when now that I think about it now. You know, uh I think you know, you want to continue to reinvent yourself and and

54:46 Not think of yourself as too old or You know, now I have these two businesses that are growing and I'm like, Oh, I need to grow them fast because I only have this many good years, I'm entering my prime and it's like, Well, are you? I mean, w you know, who's to say? I mean, there are endless stories of people that do it in their fifties, sixties, seventies, I mean some in their eighties, right? So

55:06 I I think all of that, everybody's unique, and I think it's really important to Forget about you know, if you're playing for validation from others or you're playing for External success. Um

55:20 You you're never gonna have the full fulfillment that you get from your achievements in life. And I don't know that I've entirely overcome that external validation. I don't think I have But um I certainly work towards it.

55:35 And really focus a lot more on internal validation. I think coming out of David's T I wish I had. Coming out of of a big financial score, but having not done a lot of the work to understand myself and what I really wanted out of life. I wish I wish I had been more prepared for that.

55:51 First thing I would have done, I would have gotten a nice office. You know, I I didn't have that. I I I stopped and I I didn't have any I had nowhere to go in the mornings, right? I went from having this Big office with a hundred Plus people who who you know, with my name on the door and I'd walk in and I was important, right? Like

56:07 And then I and then the next day I'm out and And you know, I'm waking up and and now what? And no one's running up to me anymore and and I'm not in this nice office. And so I think the first thing I would have done, I would have gotten a really nice office. I would have I would I think I would have consulted with a lot more people that had been through that experience of having sold their company. I wasn't very thoughtful about that and and I I in retrospect Um, I mean I became it took me a little longer and I became more thoughtful about it over time, but by the time I became more thoughtful about it, I'd already jumped into other things. And those of course take up your entire focus because once you're you're in the game of building a business again. You know, you're you're trying to manage the swings of the game and you're trying to go on a a run where you grow. And and so you you go right back into it, into the doing.

56:51 versus the reflecting. You mentioned Warren Buffett. I know you're a fan. What are some of the lessons you've taken away from him over the years? The first one is is I I wish I had this this uh superpower. Here's a guy who can make Very few decisions.

57:07 Uh but make them with so much conviction and then Live in Omaha, Nebraska. And like go sit in a fishing boat. While the world goes on around him. I mean You know

57:17 Talk about being able to overcome the action bias. Yeah, I just think that's incredible. I mean a lot of things we're talking about here today where How do you get to a place where you have internal validation and you you kinda don't care what others think.

57:30 I mean, very few of us can say that that we don't care about what others think. Uh I think he's one of them. You know, I think he really is one of them. I first read about Warren Buffett Uh at the start of David's T I was telling you the story.

57:43 I think it was buffetology actually, I think is is His daughter in law wrote it. So that was, I mean, we're we're going back now twenty years, right? And Since that time, I've I've seen him go through waves where the world thought he was a dinosaur. Mm-hmm. Like when he bought craft and and and when the tech w was really booming, everybody's like, or Bitcoin was was super hot, right? Everyone's like, Oh, this guy's a dinosaur. He's out. He doesn't know anything. Well Turns out he's not. Then he turns around. He buys the Japanese trading houses at at ten cents on the dollar, and he makes another brilliant move. And

58:12 And you're just like wow, he's done it again. I mean, I think before Two thousand eight. Uh uh he was another period in you know, two thousand six, two thousand seven, leading up to it where he looked like a dinosaur and then bang, he's saving the financial world in America and making these investments in Goldman Sachs and You know, so I think I think what I admire about the guy is is You know.

58:32 We have all these sayings in life like play the long game or or learn how to how to sit with something and It's really hard to do those things, right? Like it's all easier said than done. And I think he's managed to be able to do them and and um I also the other thing I admire about Warren Buffett is Being able to express complex things in simple terms.

58:50 Yeah. It's like the Mark Twain saying, you know, I'm sorry I wrote you such a long letter, I didn't have the time to write you a short one. when I was going to McGill I I I went into management and I realized very early on that I didn't know how to write. I was a terrible writer. It's a sort of a lost art form. And I want to learn how to write, so I went into English lit.

59:07 at Miguel and I s I ended up minoring in English lit. It was serendipitous because I met my wife in English lit. And but I also learned how to write. I I I wrote for the McGill Daily newspaper. Uh and and I really wanted to turn what was a weakness for me into a strength. And I became, you know, an above average writer. I'm I'm I you know I'm I'm I'm no Mark Twain and and but I'd like to think I can I can write a decently persuasive email or letter. And I think that's a really important skill set. And where that comes in particularly helpful is how do you express

59:36 a complex idea in simple terms and No one uh does this better than Warren Buffin. I mean, you read his annual shareholder letters. And he does such a good job taking Амі сам із комплектази ордеро бизнес. and distilling it into a few timeless principles.

59:54 And he does this with investing as a whole, right? He teaches us how to have a perspective on investment and on investing. that um that will sustain you through a lifetime. I wish I had his patience. I never will. It's just not who I am. I think one of the differentiating factors for him is How

1:00:10 How rarely he actually moves on something and makes decisions. He sits on things longer than most. Uh and I think I think that's a rare quality. How do you fit everything in? I mean, you have an incredible wife, you have three kids, two businesses that you're running a podcast that's growing. Yeah. I think I think a couple of things. You know, I I think getting up early is really important. I don't really know many extremely successful people who don't get up early.

1:00:37 I like to work out in the mornings. I like to turn my phone off at a certain point in in the evening. And I know this is gonna sound really weird, but I actually I bought this thing. that I can put my phone in that locks it. It's like a little cubby for my phone.

1:00:49 And I put it in now around nine, nine thirty. And and it's locked. And of course, at first I was like, Wow, what if my My you know, my parents a bit older, but if something happens or or I need it and I said, Well, you know, my wife has a phone, I have my computer, it's not like there's other ways I can check if if I need to, but this allows me from sort of I used to go on on social and just sort of numb out.

1:01:09 and a half hour would go by and I'm like, What am I doing? I just wasted a half hour of my life. numbing out on social. With my kids. Can I be present reading my son Harry Potter, who's seven years old, and and just starting to get into that, you know, can I take one of my daughters out to to for for a tea? uh um and and be able to just listen to them talk about their science fair or or their gymnastics or whatever it is they're into.

1:01:32 It doesn't take much. You know, I'm not religious at all, but I think there's some there's enormous wisdom in the concept of the Sabbath. I think it's just an incredible concept, right? Like What is that? So the Sabbath is is a Jewish uh is is you know, it's it's called Shabbat. It's it's a j it's in Judaism. It's this idea of from Friday night sundown to Saturday night sundown. You don't work.

1:01:56 Now what does that mean today? Uh I've I've sort of evolved it to my own personal like I say, I'm not religious. Um But I I think there are principles in there that are very that have helped me a lot. So I I still will work on a Saturday morning sometimes, but I won't I won't

1:02:14 I I like to come out with a different mindset. I I for some reason I've I've found a way to to take the edge off on the Friday night to Saturday night and I think of that as my relaxed time. Yeah. And if I'm working it'll be more reading or taking notes or reflective emails on my laptop. I don't, you know, there's working in the business and working on the business. I like to take my weekends if I'm going to work to work on the business and not in the business. I really make I really make sure I take time for my kids and my wife uh on the weekends. I mean, I make it a point to go out with my wife uh for a date night at least once a week, usually on the weekends. We go for dinner together. Um, we take a fair amount of trips. Think that's also really important. I like to get away

1:02:51 But yeah, I sort of have I've started to bring a different mindset from my Friday night to Saturday night. And then suddenly you start to ramp up again, right? Like you sort of gear up for the battle. But Monday to to to Friday it's intense. Like I I'm I'm an intense guy. I just am. There's no way to to for better or for worse is who I am. And I go at it hard and I I wear my heart on my sleeve and I I work very, very hard.

1:03:14 I'm present with my my family during the week, but for very short periods of time, and I'm certainly more present on the weekends than on holidays. You know, like I was saying, there's no substitute for the work. You you you have to operate with a certain level of intensity. In order to get things done. And I I work late into the night. I you know, I work up until about eight or nine o'clock. I usually either read a bit or watch a bit of TV with with uh my wife and read to one of my kids, uh before bed and and go to bed and try and get as much sleep so I can get up and do it all over again.

1:03:42 Do you think that's sort of the biggest missed opportunity that that people have is like when they stay up late,'cause you go to bed early. You wake up early. Oh. It's that like, you know, I don't know, nine thirty to eleven thirty, you don't really get anything done. You end up scrolling, watching TV. But if you get up if you go to bed at nine thirty and you get up at five

1:04:01 You're like ready to go. You're in thousand percent. Yeah. I think I think that's the biggest uh uh least productive most dangerous time for our for our mental state uh of the day. And usually I find it's it's It's also the time of day where I'm The most

1:04:17 worried about my future, about the business. I'm usually the most down on, you know, I'm in I'm in a depressive state. I'm sort of like, ah, it's not working. Things aren't going my well. I wish this, I wish that. You know, and I'm sort of down on myself. And it's important to be like Yeah, more and more I try and distance.

1:04:35 myself and be able to be the observer rather than the participant in that and be like, Okay, well like You're just tired. Like you're just tired. You know, with like with kids When you're like, okay, you're tired.

1:04:45 Yeah. It's no different with adults, right? Like you're just tired. Like go to bed. Call it. It's over. Day's over. You know, tomorrow's another day. Go to bed. I feel that. What's missing it most in life right now? That's a tough question. I cheated before this interview and looked at your notes and and and uh uh I saw that question and I wasn't sure how to answer it. Uh and I I'm I'm still not. I think it's a really difficult question to answer. I think the answer is nothing. There are lots of

1:05:11 things that I want, but there are few things that I truly need that I don't have right now. I think what's missing is just more. More life. More embracing the journey. more being able to take it all in without feeling

1:05:26 less than like a you know, like a failure, more being able to just appreciate all the good that's in life. versus constantly Uh um perseverating on on on what's

1:05:39 difficult or missing or or bad. Life is short and and it's it should be celebrated. It should be it should be elevated. And I think There are lots of things I want to do and accomplish. I mean, I definitely sit down once a year and I write out goals and I write out one year goals and three year goals and ten year goals and

1:06:01 And But then I kinda like to say to myself, and and and let's say I achieve none of them. Right,'cause you always have that sort of fear. Like what if it doesn't work? What if I can't What if I'm not that good at this? And what if I can't write in And so what I got, three healthy kids.

1:06:16 uh uh I got a a a a a great marriage. I've I've made enough money. I've I've You know, and so what? And and I know that that sitting here, it's easy for me to say that a lot, you know, but it's all relative, right? And you have to remember that's all relative. Like there's always somebody who has more and there's always somebody who has less. And that's true no matter where you are. You know, but the truth is, like, I was just as happy In that base room apartment in Montreal. As I am now.

1:06:40 You know, so much has changed in my life, but at the same time, the real changes, the real things have brought true happiness. were the personal developments, where my ability to connect with my wife on a d deeper level, where my ability to uh truly enjoy and and appreciate my kids. I think we're all kind of playing for that no regret. old age rocking chair moment. Yeah. At least I I sort of use that as a

1:07:05 A yardstick be like Well Is this gonna matter in my rocking chair? And of course, life has many twists and turns and and who's to say you'll ever be in a rocking chair. I mean it's it's it's I think it's just more the the sentiment than the reality. But I think I think that that thinking about the question what's missing in your life You know, the answer's always perspective. You have to decide what narrative you want to live.

1:07:27 Right, like y you don't get to choose a lot of things in life are completely out of your control. But but how you think about things and the narrative that you go through life with is in your control. You know, everybody could say, Well, your pain's not as big as my pain, or your hardships aren't as big as my my hardships, but it's all relative. I mean, pain is pain and hardship is hardship. And Yes, some are worse than others, but by and large, we all have things that we need to overcome, and and I just think that that Really, it's it's doing the hard work to try and how can you continue to sharpen your perspective and your narrative so that you can celebrate life and get the most out of it.

1:08:01 I like that'cause you're choosing where to focus, right? You choose your focus. You really do. And and that's something it needs to be practiced. It's not something you can't just tomorrow. I think it's hard to walk up, wake up tomorrow and be like, I don't have a positive mindset about everything. Well, you're not. Like you're you know, if if you've gone through your life having a negative mindset about everything, you're not gonna be able to do that in one day. Uh, and probably not in one year and probably not in five years, frankly. But But how do you take one step forward in that journey towards

1:08:26 uh having a better perspective and and being able to enjoy life more and celebrate uh all the good that's in your life and not just focus on all the things that are not what what you want to be. We we always end with the same question, I guess we'll it's think of it as the rocking chair question. Rocking chair question. Which is uh what is success for you? What do you wanna be sitting there looking back on and you'd be like that's that's success. When I was a little boy, my father used to say to me, he'd say David, you're like an eight cylinder engine operating on two cylinders. And I didn't really know what he meant by that. I didn't know the world. I didn't I didn't know what was out there. I didn't know all the possibilities.

1:09:02 But but the more I go through life, the more I realize that That for me is is very important. I don't want to ever look back And feel like I didn't use all eight cylinders. And I think that applies to everybody, you know. I I don't wanna feel that I didn't tap into my full potential. I don't know what that is right now. I can't tell you. We all have a certain

1:09:22 le level that we're gonna reach. You know, not everyone's Michael Jordan and not everyone's gonna be the the the Warren Buffett or the CEO or the president or whatever, right? And and I don't think that matters. I actually think what's far more important is Did I self actualize All eight cylinders. uh that I was able to to uh um self actualize. Did I did I tap into my full engine? Hopefully one day on my rocking chair, as the the rocking chair question. I'm able to say

1:09:49 I did that. I didn't I didn't short change myself. I didn't I didn't not show up for myself. Thank you so much. This has been awesome. Thanks, Shane. This is great. Appreciate it. Thanks for having me. Recently I've started to record my reflections and thoughts about the interview after the interview. I sit down, highlight the key moments that stood out for me, and I also talk about

1:10:11 other connections to episodes and sort of what's got me pondering that I maybe haven't quite figured out. This is available to supporting members of the Knowledge Project. You can go to FS.blog Slash membership. Check out the show notes for a link and you can sign up today. And my reflections will just be available in your private podcast feed. You'll also skip all the ads at the front of the episode. Mm.

1:10:45 Thanks and learning with us. For a complete list of episodes, show notes, transcripts, and more, go to fs.blog/podcast or just Google the Knowledge Project. The Fernham Street blog is also where you can learn more about my new book, Clear Thinking. Turning ordinary moments into extraordinary results. It's a transformative guide that hands you the tools to master your fate. sharpen your decision making, and set yourself up for unparalleled success. Lear more at fs.blog slash clear.

1:11:21 Until next time.

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