#719: Walk & Talk with Greg McKeown — How to Find Your Purpose and Master Essentialism in 2024

0:00 This episode is brought to you by AG1, the daily foundational nutritional supplement that supports whole body health. I view AG1 as comprehensive nutritional insurance, and that is nothing new. I actually recommended AG1 in my 2010. best seller more than a decade ago, the four hour body, and I did not get paid. Mm. I simply love the product and felt like it was the ultimate

0:24 nutritionally dense supplement that you could use conveniently while on the run, which is for me a lot of the time. I have been using it a very, very long time indeed. And I do get asked a lot what I would take if I could only take one supplement. And the true answer is invariably AG1. It simply covers a ton of bases. I usually drink it in the mornings and frequently take their travel packs with me on the road. So what is Age One? What is this stuff? AG1 is a science-driven formulation of vitamins, probiotics, and whole food sourced nutrients. In a single scoop, AG1 gives you support for the brain, gut, and immune system. Since 2010, they have improved the formula 52 times in pursuit of making the best foundational nutrition supplement possible. using rigorous standards and high quality ingredients.

1:12 How many ingredients? Seventy five and you would be hard pressed to find a more nutrient dense formula. on the market. It has a multivitamin, multi-mineral, superfood complex, probiotics and prebiotics for gut health, an antioxidant, immune support formula, digestive enzymes, and adaptogens to help manage stress. Now I do my best always to eat nutrient dense meals. That is The basic, basic, basic.

1:36 Basic requirement. Right. That is why things are called supplements. Of course, that's what I focus on, but it is not always possible. It is not always easy. So Part of my routine is using AG1 daily. If I'm on the road, on the run, it just makes it easy to get a lot of nutrients at once and to sleep easy knowing that I am checking a lot of important boxes. So each morning.

1:58 E G one. That's just Like brushing my teeth part of the routine. It's also NSF certified for sport, so professional athletes trust it to be safe, and each pouch of AG1 contains exactly what is on the label, does not contain harmful levels of microbes or heavy metals, and is free of 280 banned substances. It's the ultimate nutritional supplement in one easy scoop. So take ownership of your health and try AG1 today. You will get a free one year supply of vitamin D and five free AG1 travel packs with your first subscription purchase. So learn more, check it out.

2:32 go to drink age one dot com slash Tim. That's drink AG One, the number one. Drink AG One dot com slash Tim. Last time, drink AG1 dot com slash Tim. Check it out. This episode is brought to you by Helix Sleep. Helix Sleep is a premium mattress brand that provides tailored mattresses based on your sleep preferences. Their lineup includes 14 unique mattresses, including a collection of luxury models, a mattress for big and tall sleepers, that's not me, and even a mattress made specifically for kids.

3:06 They have models with memory foam lay to provide optimal pressure relief if you sleep on your side, as I often do and did last night on one of their beds. Models with more responsive foam to cradle your body for essential support in stomach and back sleeping positions, and on and on. They have you covered. So how will you know which helix mattress works best for you and your body? Take the Helix Sleep Quiz at Helix Sleep.com slash Tim and find your perfect mattress in less than two minutes. Personally, for the last few years, I've been sleeping on a Helix Midnight Lux mattress. I also have one of those in the guest bedroom and feedback from friends has always been fantastic. They frequently say it's the best night of sleep they've had in ages. It's something they comment on without any prompting from me whatsoever. Helix mattresses are American made and come with a 10 or 15 year warranty, depending on the model. Your mattress will be shipped straight to your door free of charge. And there's no better way to test out a new mattress than by sleeping on it in your own home. That's why they offer a one hundred night risk free trial. If you decide it's not the best fit, you're welcome to return it for a full refund.

4:08 Helix has been awarded number one mattress by both GQ and Wired magazines. And now Helix has harnessed years of extensive mattress expertise to bring you a truly elevated sleep experience. Their newest collection of mattresses, called Helix Elite, includes six different mattress models, each tailored for specific sleep positions. and firmness preferences so you can get exactly what your body needs. Each Helix Elite Mattress comes with an extra layer of foam for pressure relief and thousands of extra microcoils for best in class support and durability. Every Helix Sleep mattress also comes with a 15 year manufacturer's warranty and the same 100 night trial as the rest of Helix's mattresses. And you, my dear listeners, can get 20% off of all mattress orders, plus two free pillows. So go to HelixSleep.com/slash Tim. to learn more. That's Helix Sleep, H E L I X, Helix Sleep.com Slash Tim, this is their best offer.

5:04 To date and it will not last long. So Take a look. With Helix, better sleep starts now. Optimal minimal.

5:13 At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking. So then also you post some questions. No, we're just seeing it. I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton. S

5:35 Well hello boys and girls, ladies and germs Tease that out. This is Tim Ferris. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris Show. And this episode, I'm very excited to announce, is an experimental format. As per usual. I will be deconstructing in some fashion world class performers to tease out the habits, routines, frameworks.

5:55 Et cetera. that you can use in your own lives. And my guest today is a guest who is very relevant for me personally right now, Greg McEwen. And he is relevant because he is easily one of my favorite thinkers on all things related to effectiveness, efficiency, and

6:13 At the end of the day. quality of life and keeping your priority or priorities Top of mind so that you are laser focused to do what really matters, the high leverage things, which are sometimes the small things. Done with relentless focus that deliver. Incredibly, incredibly important.

6:34 outcomes. So Let's get to it. This is a walk and talk with Greg McEwen. And overall, it is about how to find your purpose and master essentialism in twenty twenty four or in the new year, if you're listening to this later. And the walk and talk format is something I wanted to experiment with because

6:51 Let's face it, most of us Sit too much and if we consider sitting the new smoking on some level with its health implications and I want to give credit to Kelly Starrett, who is also a multiple time podcast guest for, I believe, coining That expression. We should get out and walk more. Part of what makes us human, part of what enabled our brains to become these incredible machines they have become, which are powered on less electricity than a light bulb, by the way, is walking. The fact that we perambulate, the fact that we walk historically.

7:22 much of the day. And I wanted to also contend with some back issues that I have that are exacerbated by extended sitting and many different health issues are correlated to extended sitting. So This is a direct oppositional

7:41 approach to perhaps the YouTube build TV show approach, which is this is audio only. And When I'm recording this, I am out walking. I have a high fidelity headset on And Greg is doing the same. We are

7:56 Doing something good for our bodies while we are having a fun and productive conversation. And my suggestion to everyone listening is if you can. Do a walk and listen. There is no reason for you to be parked in front of a laptop. watching a video contributing to your own physical demise hour by hour. If you can be out. Walking around listening to this.

8:20 also doing something. good for your body and therefore for your entire life. So get out, try a walk and listen while we walk and talk. You can be part of the conversation and that's enough preamble on the format. But I really feel strongly that this is something I'm going to do more of. I loved doing it, and my hope is that you will join us in walking more. It is the cure all for so many things. Greg McEwen, who is he? You can find him on Twitter at Gregory McEwen, spelled M-C-K-E-O-N-N. Greg is the author of two New York Times bestsellers, mega bestsellers, Essentialism, The Disciplined Pursuit of Less. Which is a book I have read many times, and then I've reread my Kindle highlights probably

9:06 Fifteen, twenty times? And his second book, Effortless, subtitle Make it easier to do what matters most. Together they've sold more than two million copies in 37 languages. He's also a speaker, host of the Greg McEwen podcast, and founder of the Essentialism Academy with students from 96 countries. More than 175,000 people have also signed up to his one minute Wednesday. newsletter. He is currently doing a doctorate at the University of Cambridge and he is As I mentioned, easily one of my favorite thinkers on many, many, many, many, many different areas. And he is intensely practical. Originally from London, England, Greg and his wife Anna are parents to four children. You can find everything, Greg, at GregMcun.com. And without further ado, please enjoy, hopefully while you are in motion.

9:56 This wide ranging conversation with Greg McEwen. Happy New Year. Happy New Year to you. Are you feeling good about the new year?

10:07 How are you feeling about this year? I'm feeling great about the new year. I'm feeling really outstanding about the new year, actually. And my my realization on New Year's Eve as I was doing an inventory. was That's the

10:20 Despite my Fred election to Self flagellate. And always Look for

10:27 The black lining on the beautiful cloud. That Twenty twenty three was a great year. I did a lot of things right. I did a lot of things That were uncomfortable and overall feel really good about it. So my overall feeling is do more of that. Keep going.

10:44 Which is Unusual as a realization or maybe just a framing. for New Year's Eve. So I feel really good about twenty twenty four. And of course the

10:55 Text that kicked this whole experimental walk and talk podcast off. People have no context. In case we use this, I am walking around with multiple Quorms of audio recording attached to my head and my hips. Shoot.

11:10 And I'm uh really appreciating the combination of locomotion and conversation. And you had sent me a text Which was very simple, at least at face value, which is what is your top goal of twenty twenty four? And I thought to myself, that's a damn good question. And I would like to hear Your answer, at least explore it with you. And here we are. So how are you feeling about twenty twenty four? The way I've been thinking about it

11:37 Myself. Is Just what is The number one highest priority For the year.

11:45 So Normally I'm not even thinking about it necessarily like a goal because that itself can be constraining. Could you say that wording one more time? Just so I make sure it sicks in. What is the number one highest priority.

11:58 For the year. That's not very different than Way I worded it when I texted you, but It just Means

12:05 A little different than just okay, well you've got all these existing goals. What's the next book? How do you get the podcast to the next level? Like it's Saying look. Bigger picture than that.

12:16 Step back, look at your whole life. From the Broadest. possible perspective. And get

12:24 connected to that. Like something like okay what Do you s understand the purpose of life to be And therefore What is missing right now You know, if you got to the end of your life and you didn't do something differently this year, what might you regret?

12:38 Just a couple of months ago I dropped off. My daughter. Eve, who you and I have talked about before, she was the one that got really sick and we dropped her off. She said she is healthy again. She is well again. She's really done well. And I was dropping her off for a mission. Uh so she's

12:54 Gone to Brazil for a year and a half. And I thought dropping off would just be like this really happy thing'cause I felt happy about it and she did and the whole family did. It's just this great thing. And She's going to Manaus, which is in the middle of the A Brazilian rainforest, which she also loves and I know where that is. Yeah. It's all good. I mean she's learning Portuguese, but she just like everything was working good about it.

13:16 But about ten minutes before I drop her off. I just have this awful feeling. Just not not like oh this is bad this is wrong, but I suddenly just feel grief and And strong emotions, and I can see

13:31 Ah, I can sort of see her whole life. To this moment. Flashing before my eyes and I have I don't know. Something The language I've given to the experience was something like a

13:42 Micro Essentially. Judgment Day or something like that. Okay, what does that mean? Yeah.

13:51 It means like Did you miss it? Did you miss her life? Were you there for it? Like a ghost of Christmas past type of specialist review. Yes. Just like a Christmas Carol type experience in micro Version of it.

14:06 Because it's done. You know, like there's of course of course there's a role to be played in her life Yeah, forever. That Phase is done and so like Whatever I feel in this moment.

14:16 That's it. The moment has gone. And I'm just now reflecting on it. And in that moment I did sort of come to this Awakening of like no, I I was. I was there for it more than I wasn't.

14:27 We travel together, we did things together, we've made all these memories, our relationship connect and safe safely. Attached But I also learned in that moment, like my goodness, this life is so pathetic. Short. And I learned also in that moment it's not divided between

14:42 one X, two X, three X activities, you know, on an important scale. It's like one X, ten X, a thousand X. And this was an a thousand X relationship. And Did I live it like that was Reality, that is reality, but did I understand that in the moment. I mean that's fairly dramatic way to answer your question, but it's like that's the perspective that I

15:03 Was reflecting on as I was thinking about Okay, therefore Perspectives are the true perspectives that

15:13 Proximates reality. How do I think about Where to put my time and energy for twenty twenty four. When there's so many good things you could be doing and so many things that will act upon me, good things that will act upon me that would consume the whole year

15:29 Easily Uh you know, what what What's missing What do I need to Do differently.

15:38 Some of how I've been thinking about it. So it sounds like If I'm he correctly and please correct me if I'm wrong, that The way you're thinking about twenty twenty four was informed by this realization slash reinforcement that As we think about different priorities, different relationships

15:55 They're not incrementally different, right? They are in many cases sort of exponentially different, where you have like a one X, as you put it, I think. Or two X versus like a hundred X, Thousand X. Right. In terms of importance. So you have that farewell with your daughter, sending her off to Manaus.

16:13 Which I've always wanted to visit, but that's a separate story. So where do you go from there, right? Because people have these realizations. Maybe they go I have no idea. They go on a rafting trip with friends and they think to themselves Oh my God, this was so nourishing. I deepened my relationships with three of my most

16:29 Cherished. Friends and I need to do more of this. But then it Like Sand through the fingers slips away as they re enter their daily lives. And that's kind of it.

16:40 Things get busy and things get crowded out. So what do you do? Well what did you do or what are you doing? After you have that realization. Let me answer this in this. A conceptual way first, right? Like

16:53 Well I have all sorts of limitations that make Focus challenging that make prioritization challenging that That make. Relationships challenging. And all of us have our own mix of

17:05 literally uh DNA can predispose us to various weaknesses. And so the key for me seems to have been I have to build I mean the word gets overused, like build a system that's equal to that challenge. And so

17:20 I have like a paper planner that I built designed myself and keep adapting. All the time. As soon as I learn oh that's kind of a weakness for me, I I build something in and oh that that's a tendency where I make trade offs that No. Pleased with later.

17:34 I build something in the So that it I On me And this really is the whole idea of effortless, right? Like effortless execution is I don't want to trust

17:43 Maio. Weaknesses. I want to build a system That Means

17:51 My weaknesses become something like irrelevant. That's what I'm trying to build. So One of those things, like I mean literally physically my I take it with me everywhere. My personalized plan I take everywhere, literally everywhere I go, I will have it.

18:06 And so in it I have the key relationships of my life, right? And that for me is very simple. That's my wife, Anna. Let's have four children. They are the thousand X's.

18:17 In my life. And then there is A select. Group of friends. And then there's a a much broader group of people that I also am building relationships and making sure I'm checking in on.

18:27 that really matter to me. If I fail in those relationships. Then Probably everything's probably okay, but But if I fail in my relationship with the thousand X's, it's like no.

18:39 Nothing's okay. Like with my wife kinda, like let me use that as an example. If I mean it's an an old saying, but it's like if things are bad in your marriage It doesn't matter how good anything else is, nothing's good. And if everything's good in your marriage, like

18:52 It doesn't matter how bad everything else is, everything is Everything is good. It's like This is so disproportionately important and so I don't think I can separate my answer to your question.

19:03 Without saying Yeah, it's actually the establishment building There is a permanent system in place.

19:12 To help me Remember what matters and who matters. When do you revisit that? In other words, if you're carrying this with you everywhere. And it seems like And again, I'll I'll just I'll add in my thoughts and then you can refine as we go.

19:26 But it seems like unlike a lot of folks, and this would include me, who probably start with what should I do, right? What? Should my priorities be? Seems like you are starting with Ku. And if you have this constant reminder which acts as a system

19:41 I'm wondering how you use that system. Right, because I think about my phone. I have One million. Three hundred and seventy nine thousand making that up uh notes on my phone. And I'm like, Oh, I I this is so important. I'm definitely gonna come back and read this. And ninety nine percent of the time I never look at it again. So

19:57 How do you use this? List of people. The way that My binder works like the first section Is all about

20:06 Direction. sort of let's say essential intent. for my whole life. Like what really, really matters. It's as succinct as possible. It's a few pages in total. That's always the place to begin, right? Because I want the Come back and get centered in.

20:21 What I have Having to learn. Yeah. Closest approximation.

20:26 to the purpose of it all. And I literally have to come back to it, right? Like you've heard the metaphor before, but you know, the idea of a flight is off track ninety percent of the time. Like an airplane literally only gets to where it's supposed to get to at the time it's supposed to get there because it readjusts. constantly along the way. And

20:43 And I feel like that myself. So Like for example, I don't think that I'm better At being an essentialist than anybody else. I think it If there's any advantage I've had in that journey, it's that I just really admit

20:57 I'm a non essentialist easily. And so it's this idea like there's only two kinds of people in the world. There are people who are lost and there are people who know they are lost. It's like I know how easy it is to me to get lost. Never heard that. That's good. I'm looking that definitely I will look properly at those few pages once a week. Right, like every Sunday I will look through that. I will read through it all in the line. Scheduled that's in your calendar Sunday morning. That's right.

21:23 And But but then At other times through the week if I feel That Sensation I know

21:29 People feel this. You know, that just sort of feels a bit crazy, it's feeling just a bit frenetic and frantic, like what? I just texted Anna yesterday like, man in in the morning, I'm like, Man, I just feel so lost. And I don't mean for the last six months. I mean for the last

21:44 Half hour. Okay, that's right. That's the signal. Go back, get centered. Take a moment, what really is the intent, what matters in your life. Okay, now from that You know, and then you start designing your day and I have some thoughts specifically about that, but

22:01 You know you're asking the the year process I guess if you're asking my system. So that's once a week. Okay. So for per day, let's get to that. So I've

22:10 Come to call this the one two three method. I do not do it every day. Man, I wish I was doing it every day. But I do it more often than I don't do it. And it's simply this and it has to be written down for me in paper and pen.

22:24 Like not in technology. Free of technology. And I try now. More often than not to have this power half an hour, right? Like where I don't go to text an email

22:37 Or apps or My phone. For the first thirty minutes. And I do that. I haven't been doing great at that recently.

22:45 But I still do that more often than I don't. And so in that, then instead of doing that, I'm in my planner and I'm literally writing, okay, what's the essential for today? What's the one most essential Today, most important person, most important action for that person. Number two is I write two things that are essential but urgent.

23:05 That's like you know, it could be all sorts of things. Any you know. Uh, whatever's got a deadline on it, finish this writing assignment. By this deadline, it could be finish these financial things for, you know, retirement documentation stuff that I don't really want to get to, but I know it's important and there's a deadline. And then the third thing is three things that are

23:23 Maintenance. items, right? So that's just I mean I that's anything that if I don't do it It's not important today, but if I don't do it It will make life a lot harder later. It's like an effortless Strategy.

23:35 And so that's the one two three method, right? One essential two Things that essential and urgent three maintenance items. Would you mind Greg giving me Just uh some concrete examples so we can visualize what this looks like. They they don't have to be real. I mean, they could be hypothetical.

23:50 But just to give an example of what a one, two, three might look like I'll just sort of talk through I talked to you yesterday. So Yesterday.

24:01 I was in California, in LA. Or an event, as doing a keynote. I had my eldest daughter Grace with me, so the When I text the And it's like oh man, I'm just kinda feeling a bit lost.

24:13 After I Expressed that I was like, Okay. Get focused. What is the essential for today, the number one thing Oh it's

24:20 Grace is here, it's my relationship with Grace. I need to make sure that we connect today, that we're not just with each other all day. Like I tried to travel with one of my children. About eighty percent of the time for keynote and And so that's built into the system. But

24:34 You still have to be present and connected and so That was the priority. The two things that are essential. And urgent. Right, like one of them's the keynote.

24:43 Right, that's coming up. And I don't really know how to phone it in on a keynote, and I certainly fear Phoning it in. Because it's like such an opportunity missed.

24:53 The thing is coming, like that that moment will arrive and you're gonna be on stage and it was for There's five hundred people, it's the non trivial event. and all the senior leaders of the organization and that was one of the key urgent tasks and then Yeah, the next urgent task was

25:09 Some family members who are I won't get into the Precise details of it, but There's some health challenges involved. So I've sort of taken it upon myself to say, Okay, how could I maybe

25:22 Kind of be a little bit of a coach, which is not really a the natural relationship I have with them. But I'm risking it because I think it really matters and they seem to have responded really positively and so I wanted to keep that going. That would be the next thing. And then of course maintenance items from there. Maintenance items.

25:38 Literally included. I was in Florida the couple of days before California, so like literally I have to unpack everything, put everything Yeah. Make sure that that's just in order. So that you don't get behind on those things.

25:51 I needed to respond. to a key email about a contract that we've been in negotiation with over the last couple of months. That would be an item. So when you're talking about the few pages that you would review on Sunday mornings, what would be an example of something

26:06 from those few pages because I feel like this would be very helpful for me. In the sense that I feel like I am pretty good at staying on task. I'm pretty good at keeping the Important things in mind and majoring in the major things. However

26:21 There are certainly times when And weeks when I get a little lost. And end up doing a lot of minor things and at the end of the week couldn't really point to what I've achieved. What might be some examples from

26:35 Those few pages. If you don't mind, Sherry. I have two pages at the beginning. Yeah. I don't share anywhere, but it's very carefully.

26:44 Would it be The highest expression of what I think The fullest Manifesten of my life can be. It's not goals. It's beyond that. It's like

26:56 Who you can be what your most important relationships can look like. And And It's

27:03 Sacred. Right, like that's how I Feel about it. That And so that's still the most important centering part of it because

27:11 Literally. If you don't get clear on that. Nothing else matters in the system, right? If you execute superbly On things that end up not being what your life needed to be about.

27:24 Then it doesn't matter. Should not be done at all of course is like It's a form of madness, right? Like it's You're speedily going the wrong direction. So from that I've identified let's say

27:36 Five or six rolls. And a goal that goes with each of those roles. And so My worldview includes The idea that we're going to be able to do

27:45 That I'm a child of God, that you're a child of God. So one of the most unbelievable things to me, right? One of the benefits of my church membership. Is that every person who wants one is a member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints can have a specific blessing That somebody

28:03 gives you personally to you that nobody else ever gets to read. And it's like we literally think about it, not metaphorically, like it's like literal scripture for you. And no two are the same. I've only ever read mine. Anna's the children's and

28:20 My grandfather who died and grandmother who died'cause you can read your ancestors once they've passed away. And my grandfather He was a patriot. Every thousand people is makes up what's called a stake and every stake has a state patriarch.

28:33 And the only thing they do Is give these patriarchal blessings. They're the only blessings that are recorded. And This is like

28:40 Whenever I think about what it is, I'm just like My goodness. How Would you go about thinking about life without this document? Because this is like Precise and specific revelatory insight into who you are, who you were before you came, who you are here, what's it possible.

28:58 What relationships are gonna matter, what weaknesses to think about. And it's like This is the centering document. So A version of this when Stephen Covey's talking about hey, we need to create a mission state for your life and company and so on. He's describing

29:12 Let's say something like A watered down version of what he's actually using every day. I see. I see. I see. So this was adapted sort of a secular version of the blessing, effectively. Yeah, and if you want the

29:27 So w we think of Life onto this is Like a series of heavens, let's say, or something like it. S different kingdoms, a celestial kingdom, a terrestrial and celestial like

29:40 Describe Sun, moon, and stars. And so he said to me once, he said, look, I think about my work professionally as a terrestrial mission. It's like I'm trying to bring a certain amount of light, like the light of the moon, but there's this whole other light That's way brighter.

29:55 How long is your blessing? Is it two pages long? Two to three pages. Ah, wow. Okay. So it really gets Really covers a lot. Yes, and it's it's a different range. I mean s some people's could be as short as half a page, but I remember meeting somebody that had one that was eight or nine pages and It really doesn't matter because

30:12 What it is Is a portal. What I just described what a portal All reading every book is potentially a portal, right? It takes you there in time and place and that's what make

30:23 You know, fiction especially so powerful, you suddenly experience this whole other world. But I really think that's That's a way of thinking about scripture that isn't obvious to most people, even people that sometimes are like reading scripture all the time. It's not.

30:39 It just opens up the possibility. So like I've read let's say I've read My page will basic like I don't know, like say let's say it's five hundred times or something. It's probably more, but Suddenly a phrase, a way that it's phrased suddenly opened up to me and I was like, Oh my goodness. I bet that means that.

30:56 And it's like it doesn't matter, the words are just the vehicle. And it's as soon as I'm ready to like understand something more. That Suddenly the particular word is oak. However that sounds, I don't know how it comes because nobody else has the

31:10 believe or think or see it the way I do, but like it's a Fact. That is an experiential fact that that is what happens over these years. I got it when I was thirteen. So whatever, I've had it for, you know, more than thirty years. And even now I'm like oh that's it means and this is what I need to do differently in my life. Oh that's where my weakness lies and

31:29 That's how I need to improve and And so This is a very centry Tool. And

31:37 I think I think Yeah, that's Difference. When That and

31:42 Trying to read. Few hundred self help books. We're all in some sense regurg taking the same set of Potentially terrestrial ideas. It's like This document to me helps it's like

31:54 Better than me. It's better than my I'm trying to figure out a higher set of thinking that's one me and tr you know, it's it's self transcendent. Rather than about self actualization, it's not me setting a goal for me and I'm going to achieve it. It's Oh man, I'm I'm going in the wrong direction. This is what I'm supposed to do and The whole idea, for example, of the biblical term repent

32:16 It was translates from a Greek word that doesn't really mean what people think of when they hear the word repent. What it means it comes from It's annoyed. It means The life

32:26 Yourself, life, God. Everything through new eyes. And it's that like your new eyes and new breath and seeing the Isn't that newness of sight? That is what

32:38 The goal is, right? And so the repentance isn't about shame, it's about Let go of the old thinking. So that there's something new and better and it this higher We've talked about before the idea of light and

32:51 It's lighter and lighter and lighter till you know eventually some perfect there in the future. But It's like more light produces more light. And as long as we're following that light, it gives us more and more and Bringing this now back to you for a second, it's like I I see you doing this in your life. I see it. You know when it's happening because

33:10 You've Feel more light. And you know when it's not happening just like I do because I'm like yeah. I feel myself That I'm being pulled into the

33:18 No. Away from the good into I want a I have a goal now when I'm doing keynote.

33:24 I ignore but I like I really wanted to work out how yeah. standing ovation. That hadn't been my journey. That wouldn't be my story. I'd get great feedback. Really well, but not standing evasions. And I'm like, Man, what are you doing? And so like I feel like I actually know

33:36 To do that now and And so that consistently happens and in the event yes is really distinctly different because They'd had everyone read the books ahead of time and so For the first time it never happened before. I walk out on the stage.

33:49 And the They gave us the innovation at the beginning and I've I've seen it happen to others, but it never happened to me before ever. And I thought, you know, like in that one. I think with a really just the whole conversation was enriching and good and it Like I was doing the right thing and it

34:02 made difference to people and all of that. But imagine if you just are living in that, breathing that in Every day. You can lose track of your way so easily, and there's a risk of that, right? There's a risk of that for me. There's a risk of that for you. There's a risk of that for anyone in a certain Consumed with what we could we call it, I could call it bro culture. That's what I would call it.

34:23 where we're just consumed with a certain set of ideas and a certain set of what winning looks like. Well, it's just consumed by groupthink, right? Or sort of group trend, right? Or whatever the success du jour happens to be. Maybe that's Going viral on TikTok, whatever the hell the shifting sands of Supposed favor. And

34:43 Adulation appear to be. Well, and you and you just named it, right? Like the shifting sand. Like in my life I'm like in in the in the last I don't know if it's is it as short as five years in the last ten years, I feel like Во сук міз. Has changed.

34:59 In some ways, and not in a good way, like in a shallower way and in and in Oh, you mean in general. in the way. And I look at it and I go I go, Yeah, I I don't I don't even want these things.

35:12 Yeah being Being Talked about influences I never even heard of. They didn't It was influencers eight years ago and now. And they're like this is what to do in life and this is how to be and I'm like

35:24 This just feels like a bad nineteen eighties motivational speaker or Something like that, right. And I'm like, I think I could get really lost if I pursued all of this shifting sands as you describe it. I Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show. This episode is brought to you by Mementus. Mementus offers high quality supplements and products across a broad spectrum of categories, including sports performance, sleep, cognitive health, hormone support, and more. I've been testing their products for months now, and I have a few that I use constantly. Personally

35:59 I've been using Mementus Mag3N8 Ltheanine and Apigenin, all of which have helped me to improve the onset quality and duration of my sleep. Now, the Mementus Sleep Pack conveniently delivers single servings of all three of these ingredients. Mementus also partners with some of the best minds in human performance to bring world class products to market. including a few you will recognize from this podcast, like Dr. Andrew Huberman and Dr. Kelly Starrett. Their products contain high quality ingredients that are third party tested, which in this case means informed sport and or NSF certified, so you can trust that what is on the label is in the bottle and nothing else. So check it out. Visit livemomentous.com slash Tim and use code Tim at checkout for twenty percent off. That's Live Momentus. L-I-V-E-M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U S dot com slash Tim and code Tim for twenty percent off. Yeah.

36:53 Let me come back to the blessing in the two pages if you don't mind, because I'm really grateful That you brought this up and Yeah. it resonates very deeply for me because I actually use Different types of poetry for this.

37:09 Cage's change, which has Some upside, I would imagine. But also some downsides. Some downsides, but if you're Looking at say as I've as I might the

37:21 Poetry of Hafez or other they're generally mystics. They don't need to be from the Islamic traditions. They could be from any tradition, but They resonate a lot with my lived and felt experience for multitude of reasons, so I will flip to a random page. And that is the page, right? That is the page that I use as the mirror, so to speak, or the lens through which I look at

37:44 my life or whatever I'm contemplating, the goals, the troubles, whatever it might be. And It's incredibly helpful as a way to grease the skids to get unstuck. Right. Because if you're in a pattern of thinking that has not solved Whatever puzzle you're trying to solve then oftentimes more thinking

38:03 of the same kind is not gonna do a hell of a lot. So Having this type of jolt of novelty slash unexpected, in my case, words is very helpful, but I do see the benefit. Of something more Comprehensive and more.

38:19 Consistent. So maybe the life mission is One approach I will say And this isn't something I've talked about that I've been single As you may or may not know for the last

38:29 Year plus, maybe a year and Three months, something like that. And I wrote down what I was looking for. I also asked my ex, who I'm I'm still very close with, If she could write down what she thinks I need so that I could provide it to say a potential matchmaker or People who might want to help.

38:48 And What I found was That description of what I need certainly applies to a partner, but applies to a lot more than a partner. So I found myself reading that. Quite consistently.

39:01 And It applies to Much more than I mean just isn't an appropriate word, but just the partner piece. It applies to so many other aspects. So indirectly by accident on some level.

39:15 I've ended up also with some document that I read on a regular basis. One of the Not just popular now, but Popular forever questions is okay. You know, like how do I meet the right person

39:27 You know, what would I want in that person and Some questions You lose Just by trying to answer them. Okay. Yeah. Please say more.

39:37 'Cause it's the wrong question. Like it's wrong, right. And so you can get y you know, people can spend years and years So let's say a better question is

39:47 maybe not surprising, it's like how can I be the right person? Who do I need to be? And then that means that Some point you attract. People like that to you.

39:58 And so the your probability of meeting somebody that actually is the right person for you increases. But that seemed like what's happened to you. Like you say, almost without design, but it's like Oh actually that list

40:10 Looks a lot like What I need to be And How I need to orient myself in the world. So

40:17 What the patriarchal blessing is to me. Is it the highest Possible. Ideal. But I

40:26 Can have And so I think that that's the question for everybody. It's like Given all the tools we have, all the insights we've ever heard, all the Best Highest wisdom that we have

40:38 Come across thus far. What's that highest ideal? Enter Focus on it and to Have

40:45 mechanisms where you come back to that More often than not more days than you don't. That becomes the guiding force of your life. And

40:55 And so I think that There probably is some process right now. Where you say let's take Best the poetry or the best this list. And I'm gonna try and

41:06 Write down like a these are the things that It's not what do I want. It's what Is the highest Truth. I've ever come across, even if it's really inconvenient for me.

41:17 What's the closest thing I can articulate as to the Purpose of my life. And I do think that Really without doing that. Wait when we don't do that.

41:27 I don't know, man. I d I just don't even know what I'm doing when I don't do that. It's like Uh I can respond to a lot of emails, I can travel a lot, I can I mean And then look back at twenty twenty three, I think.

41:39 And I did a lot of things and I just need to be really grateful for all those things, but Sometimes I'm like Did you do what really matters the most in the whole year, did you? And and I I I don't want that to be true for twenty twenty four. What comes to mind for me also, actually I haven't thought about this in a while, but it was from a conversation I had on the podcast with General Stanley McChrystal. And I'm gonna paraphrase here, but

42:01 said something along the lines, and I've I've heard this elsewhere since, but the purpose of life is to find the purpose of life. Something along those lines. And the reason that that Came to mind is I would imagine I'm just Visualizing myself here.

42:15 That If you have Something like the patriarchal blessing or four or five pieces of poetry, so Wild Geese by Mary Oliver would probably be an in my short list.

42:26 As an example, if you have A handful of things. that you have decided even for a year, even for just say the next year, are going to be Effectively your personal mission statement. Something like that.

42:40 Directional documents. Yeah, your directional documents. Having that directional document. I would imagine Gives you a certain Peace of mind or ability to exhale that makes it less likely that you're gonna chase

42:55 As many shiny objects as And get as easily distracted as you would otherwise. Does that make sense? Like just the Active. Gathering that and having that.

43:04 I see having And impact. on your state and also your behavior. Above and beyond what it does when you check it each week.

43:13 Does that make any sense? Does that make sense? It's kinda like you're lost in the woods. Do you have a compass or not? Like even if you haven't figured out how to get to where you're going, like do you have a compass or not? And if you have a compass, you're gonna feel a hell of a lot better. Even if you don't use it. Well so like literally I guess this is actually true that But if you

43:31 There's like a People. We're given the task to walk in a straight line. And they they found that if they were in a wilderness where there was no

43:41 Point that they could look to They literally walked in circles. They didn't know they were doing that. And so the the only way to actually Go forward is

43:52 Pick something on the horizon. There's the mountain. There's a thing I'm going to that and then you could walk in a straight line. And so that's so strange because that means that there's nothing Inside of us.

44:03 But knows exact where to go physically. I mean that's true for me when I'm driving I'd say that that's for absolutely sure. So I think that it's beyond a goal It's What's the direction? What's it all about?

44:16 I'm gonna fix on that for a while. And you're not gonna strive to live that. We're gonna see how that goes and whether that reveals another Higher Insight.

44:25 You know, so if Wild East is your poem of today Maybe in five years there's a new poem that you go, Oh, that's a higher Truth for me, I'm gonna hold on to that. And walk towards that and and see how it goes. So So yeah, I I mean this could all sound

44:38 Etheral to people, right, when they say, Oh yeah, but I just gotta get on with the The actions of today. But man, the risk of Skipping this part of the process is you just go in circles. For years and years. There's a big difference. I read this

44:51 Yeah, while a little bit. There's a big difference between Twice of experience. And the same Yeah, live twenty times.

44:59 That you don't learn the lessons'cause you're just going in circles and you're just rushing, rushing and and actually not Getting closer. To what The purpose of life. Really is.

45:10 I have a question for you, Greg, which is Self serving is A lot of my questions are, I suppose, but You know the person the personal is universal, right? That's my

45:21 That's my that's my that's my pitch. So I imagine you've been exposed to thousands upon thousands of people. Not just through Essentialism and your other books, but also through the church and Your various communities.

45:37 And What I'm very curious to know is when you think about The people who come to mind as secular but who are good at In some fashion doing what you're describing.

45:51 They could be What do they have in common as the question? Or it could just be if you think of one or two of these people. How did they approach this? The word that comes to mind A word it might sound

46:03 I don't know, almost trivial because it's like, Oh yeah, we well we know that word, but it's like It's truth. It's like Willingness To speak the truth.

46:13 Meaning Not that They or any of us have some monopoly on the truth. Obviously we don't. Obviously truth is beyond us and

46:24 needs to be as close to what we understand the truth to be as possible, otherwise it can't be corrected. We can't engage in proper communication with other people. I have a few thoughts about this. One I think that Telling the truth.

46:38 It's like whatever the consequence is for telling the truth. In the immediate moment. It is the path. Two Your

46:48 Best possible future. That speaking the truth And listening to other people like As soon as you start speaking the truth, you start having truthful conversations with people. And if you can do that in what I would describe as the spirit of truth, which is different than just saying what you think is true. I think this

47:05 And then It's like you you're trying to say the truth, but in a spirit of truth. It's like, Am I doing this in the right spirit? Am I just doing this to win the conversation? It's like there's a I between could you I understand winning the conversation as a description, but yeah, but what would the antonym of that be? In other words, saying it in the spirit of truth. What does that look like? Or feel like.

47:24 It means That the intent of the conversation Is to Discover together. What is really true.

47:33 Not To make your point. to win and so on, right? Like so the intent of the conversation changes. And so let's describe the absolute ideal of this. The ideal of this is

47:46 I am trying to speak the truth by the spirit of truth. That is That is As soon as I've spoken it, I'm open to being wrong. And I'm open to Not just being wrong, but I'm open to learning because like

47:57 Then you say something back to me and you go, Well this is Well, this is how I see this and and and hopefully me being true makes it easier for the person I'm talking to To be truthful. And so then they share something and I go, Oh my goodness, I have not thought about that way. Oh, that makes me think of this and And so it's

48:10 You are trying to say what you think is true. But now Let's see if we can Expand. The

48:17 Parameters. of truth that we together can have previously. Like there's more truth that's gonna come out in this conversation. I think that's what the spirit of truth looks like. Then the ideal of course is that When the other person speaks now I I want to make this safe so they can speak the truth to me, whatever that is, even if I don't

48:35 Really? You know, want to hear it. So I have to listen with the spirit of truth. And so that becomes the symbiotic Communication and

48:43 I would say that most people have experienced it occasionally, rarely, but they have experienced it because When you get into this kind of communication Time should have been a evaporates and we're not worried so much about ourselves anymore, how we're coming across Who we're not judging them and so on. It's just

48:58 You know, it's back to portal communication. And I think What I'm describing now, it's taken me a long time to understand this or to articulate this, but I think this is the one true way of communication. Was Anna Karena you know opened the brilliant line. All unhappy families are unhappy in their own way and it

49:14 Happy families. A happy in one way. There's like A single way of doing it right and a thousand ways of doing it wrong. And I think that's communication too, and I didn't know that. And cool.

49:24 Fairly recently. But I think that's right that Every other form. When we're trying to speak to impress Or when we're trying to

49:32 Weasel out and Responsibility, right? Like I've done that in my own family. Oh I uh Well no, I meant to do it this way or I tried that way, you know, defensive This isn't communication. I don't know what it is. I don't have a word for it, but it's It's anti communication. I think

49:47 Speaking with truth. The spirit of truth. Listening in the spirit of truth. That magic happens then and that. You make each other better.

49:54 Yeah, edify each other, you You understand each other, you can sort of rejoice in it. I mean I have to assume that you have had moments like well many moments of in podcast conversations when they're at their best.

50:07 It's like it's beyond Any agenda. And so the people that I'm thinking of in my mind Have the courage To speak.

50:15 The truth. And that's non trivial. And in my own life I have to get better at it. And having the courage to do it whatever the Consequence seems to be in the moment.

50:24 And then immediately open myself up to what they're gonna say because it'll surely bring a response from somebody else and Have the Risk it. The real vulnerability. Mm-hmm.

50:35 Is there anything else that that comes to mind if you had to add something else? To the answer of the question. Oh. what you see in some of the secular examples. to seem to really

50:47 Be able to travel the road less traveled in the way that We've been discussing it. Anything else come to mind? It doesn't have to be specific to any type of patriarchal blessing like document or

51:01 compass per se, but but just someone who is in general good at operating kind of top down, if that makes sense, as opposed to like here are the thousand things that I could do. in a reactive sense, and then let me try to pick a handful of those as my priorities. People who are very good at operating kind of top down. It's hard for me to get

51:21 Out of the thread that I'm on about this because Because what I'm Learning Is that

51:28 I mean, we've talked already about this idea of sort of the highest aspiration, you're looking towards something bigger than you, self transcending. Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right, is wrong. It's wrong. Like Maslow said it was wrong. And nobody updated.

51:42 The documentation. Oh, I can't wait. This is this is new to me. Yeah, so he so before he died, before Maslow died, he wrote an Final book. In which he updated his model.

51:53 And just no one I don't know why, I don't know what was going on precisely, but it just got ignored. And some reason that model just is bit is in every single psychology book that's ever been written and it's everywhere, everywhere. The highest need is self actualization. And he changed that before he died to

52:08 Self transcendence. But that's the highest. Ideal. And my goodness, that's a big difference.

52:16 Huge. Yeah, they're not even not even. Similar species. No, they're really not. They really are different in kind. Self actualization is like What I was briefly describing before is bro culture, and and maybe that's not a precise terminology, but it named something for me of

52:32 You Greg McEwen Looking like he wants to look Feeling like he wants to feel getting what he likes to get.

52:42 You know. It's just More for me. Yeah, I mean it's in individual achievement related. It's achievement ethic. And the data shows that achievement ethic

52:52 as a value has increased in society over the last few decades significantly. More than any of the other, let's say, the other virtues. And of course I think achievement is a virtue the the desire to achieve, but it's of course just one Of many And so self transcendent.

53:07 Is kind of what we're talking about, and it certainly leads me. Down this path of Yes. is about The relationships.

53:17 It really, really is about that. Because if you have a model of self actualization And then you try to be in a relationship. Well It's not going to work. That's a summary point. It is not going to be a good thing.

53:31 And it's not going to work because That's not what a relationship Is. And by the way, like this is big in my mind and one could argue that the biggest insight that's It's come about

53:42 In psychology and in Psychotherapy over the last fifty years. Is this growing Understanding. Of

53:50 What a relationship is, what love is And Particularly the idea of the Of safe attachment. And the attachment theory.

53:59 And so at risk of riffing too long on this subject. Let me just I got nowhere to go, man. Ha ha ha. Okay. And actually, Greg, just just so we don't

54:10 lose track of one thing for people who may not be familiar with the term self transcendence, if you could just define that at some point, could be brief, just so people have an idea. And self-actualization, I think people probably can infer, but self transcendent Transcendents. Okay, so here's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna do go for the attachment stuff and I'll bring it back to self transcendents. Okay. One could ask a question like Yeah, what is a relationship? What is love? What makes a healthy

54:33 Strong. resilient, successful relationship over decades, right? Like what does what does that look like? And It's a really non trivial question, especially when one considers what For Something like fifty years we have been actually taught.

54:48 And The data now is increasingly showing that that is wrong. So that really matters, but like what we've been taught, first of all, like go back with me Well How

54:58 People thought about Raising children. In like, you know, let's say nineteen ten, nineteen twenty, like this. In England, right, the centre of the world probably still in terms of economic power and political power and so on and like what would the

55:13 Perspective of That relationship. And John Bowby. He's in a in an upper class home. In the gentleman's home.

55:20 He's allowed to come and eat. At the family Yeah. When he turns eleven or twelve. Just for dessert.

55:29 Prior to that he's not even allowed to eat dessert. In his own family. And the reason is because there's this idea that Yeah, children should be seen and not heard that If you were to show emotional

55:41 Connection with your child. and overly loving you're gonna raise Nambi Pambi kids. And they're not gonna be strong in the world and so In that perspective, the reason it's so non trivial is that that Defined policy and behavior.

55:53 In the broadest possible sense. So for example, if you if your child needed to go to hospital Like I mean like a two year old, three year old. You are gonna drop your child off at the door. You will see them if you see them, you'll see them once a week for one hour.

56:09 And All of the nursing staff in the hospital will treat them also in this same Regimented way. non emotional, non connected way.

56:19 Who Is shipped off to Boarding school. And so again he's separated from his his family of origin and connection and He's not safely attached to them. He didn't have that language yet, but that was it.

56:30 I mean eventually he goes on this journey. He he creates this documentary. It's something like I don't remember the name precisely, but it's like a two year old goes to hospital. Maybe a three year old goes off, but something like this. And he videos The experience of this child And the separation anxiety that

56:47 they experience and how terrifying it is for them to suddenly be in this Hospital unwell. You know, don't know anybody and so on. And they they create this video. That video was almost banned. He was almost kicked out of the whatever the agency was that was m managing psychological institutions in the UK. He almost got kicked out of it. But

57:04 having this theory that eventually caused the theory of attachment. But over time I don't more than a thousand studies have been done since on his work and over time. His Insights have been

57:16 really strongly It's grown and And so now we have attachment theory. What that means is that Especially in years one to three. Whatever level of attachment we have with our mother, with our father

57:28 It finds us in really significant ways for the rest of our lives, and if we were insecurely attached Then it also makes it extremely hard for us to have deep and proper relationships with people all through our lives. It's like massively influenced by those Early years. Now that's phase one, but phase two he he died before he ever got to see this, but

57:47 Another set of researchers Picked up the baton. And started looking into whether The attachment theory that that everyone thought Applied only.

57:57 To sort of these infants. Could also be true. With Adult relationships. And the answer to that question is a resounding yes.

58:06 And that every argument, every fight Adults have with each other. And in intimate relationships, especially let's say Every fight is about the same Blasted thing.

58:19 And what it's about It's described by a different professor. It's like a Primal. Fry or a you know a primal.

58:27 Scream or something, I can't remember the term now, but Well, that primal desire is Do you really see me? Do you really know me? Do you really Are you really Gonna be there for me.

58:37 If I'm desperate enough. And that's what it's always about. That's the whole that's every other argument's about the same thing. Well do you really see me? Can I be securely attached to you? Are you securely attached to me? And so

58:50 Okay, now Contrast that. Well self Actualization. There's the whole argument of self-actualization. If you think self-actualization is the highest need in life, and then you get into a relationship, you start creating this kind of language in the psychological industry, you start saying

59:04 If you need the other person too much, you're codependent. You create language around it. You say, Well, that's just enmeshment. Yeah, struggling with what you need. is to be independently happy. Independently secure, independently invulnerable. independently strong and then together then you're gonna create

59:20 This great dynamic relationship. I can think of people I don't really want to say it, but even though everybody knows these people global icons to are in a relationship that looked about as toxic as a relationship can possibly look. In which they describe the that in they say we're in this

59:37 Bad marriage. We're in this terrible but we're gonna stick it out because that's what love is it's like You go make yourself happy and you go make yourself happy and then we'll be happy together. It's a Global manifestation. I feel so bad for the couple and all the people involved by it, but

59:51 It's like Manifestation of a bad paradigm. That we have been taught.

59:58 What you want is exactly the opposite of that. It's like no, we need effective Dependents. Where we actually feel Deeply. Connected.

1:00:08 Deeply seen, emotionally safe. Attached. That's what we're really going for. And so Bringing this now back to the question of So

1:00:17 Transcendence. L transcendents means multiple things. So I don't want to oversimplify it. It certainly means giving yourself Two

1:00:25 something bigger than yourself. It certainly means that transcending yourself Trying to Live. Po Something beyond us.

1:00:34 And it includes, definitely includes in his definition. being able to be unified with other people. in deep relationships. And so that's not the whole sense that he meant by that term, but It's certainly included in And that is to say

1:00:49 You can't Have self transcendence. If you haven't learned how to Like they go together. You You have to be quite developed.

1:00:59 deeply connect with others. You have to be very vulnerable. Because my goodness, you have to cry out as it as it were to say I I feel so unsafe right now in this conversation. I have to speak truth about this and I'd rather just I'd rather say all you just don't like me. Or you just are like this. Or you're

1:01:16 Instead of the vulnerability to the truth of This is how I feel. This is what's going on. Now let me listen to you. Let's fight this out, but let's Have as our intent we're going to actually

1:01:28 Deeply. Connect with The other person. I see an overlap between these two terms. Yeah, let me hop in with a couple of

1:01:36 thoughts that are popping to mind and then a couple of questions. So the first is that If we end up publishing this for people who are listening, The I would imagine what you're describing on some level as its core has truth, right? So you can be truthful.

1:01:51 And communicate Your needs. And so on without Trauma performing or Using performative vulnerability, right? Which I think has become very fashionable, especially in places like Austin where

1:02:06 You meet somebody you're Two minutes into meet them at a party and they've already told you about their worst childhood trauma. And or just offloading these horrible things as a Means of

1:02:16 Theater almost. It's just become Like a Portlandia of Cure the bad things that have happened to me. And let me be vulnerable. But I I feel like what you're describing is is very different in the sense that there's a core of truth to it.

1:02:30 And you can still be independently strong in a million different ways and effective in a million different ways while still doing that. Right. I'm I just I'm just trying to Overly sort of bemoaned.

1:02:48 drawn out, protracted confession of weakness or something like that. It can have a component of vulnerability, certainly, but there's also a core of strength In my mind because Yeah. Requires a certain core strength to be consistently truthful.

1:03:02 And to solicit truth, that's that is not easy. Is truth not performance. Yeah, exactly. So and then the the Thinking about

1:03:13 say attachment and self transcendence and relationships and so on. What order do we put these in? For people who are listening or for myself, right? Although I think I've actually made Tremendous progress on Most of these fronts in the last

1:03:26 How would you suggest someone approach this? In other words, if they're thinking, All right, well Self transcendence is the top of the ladder by Doctor Maslow and his In his final writings. I'm up for that. That makes sense to me.

1:03:39 And they want healthy Interdependent. Relationships. And they recognize that the sort of Gordon Gecko slash go go go achiever culture in the US, while it produces a lot of GDP and other things, doesn't always

1:03:53 Actually very rarely. Produces stable Well being in most people. And The question then.

1:04:01 comes up, which is in what order do I tackle these things? Should I read a book on attachment theory and do that first, and then maybe look at Maslow's stuff and then look at something else. From a brass tax perspective, if somebody's like, Yeah, you know what, you're right. If I look at myself Truthfully, you know, honestly. I have deficits in these areas and I want to try to

1:04:20 make the leap. Like I want to, I want to work on these things. How would you suggest someone do that? Maybe you can give me your two cents. There is a book. Let me look at the cover. Really quickly. Yeah. I think it's just called attached. Yeah, the new science of adult attachments.

1:04:37 Et cetera, et cetera. Which has I guess two magnets in the form of a heart on the cover. Uh pretty good cover, I'll give it. Credit. The new science of adult attachment and how it can help you find and keep love by Amir Levine M D and Rachel S F Heller M A.

1:04:51 Nineteen thousand four hundred and thirty seven reviews, four point seven star average. I have not read it, so I can't speak to this, but I know a number of friends have read this and thought it's helpful. But I'm speculating here, so what would you say? Well,

1:05:04 I can start With myself In Just being I suppose truthful about How I'm seeing it.

1:05:11 But The answer to m the question what's my one priority For twenty twenty four. It is to help

1:05:20 My wife Anna and I to feel Safely attached. Deeply connected. And I would say There's a lot more right with

1:05:31 Without relationship and marriage than there is wrong with it. And actually I you know, like I think there's a lot. of goodness in it, right? You know, we've been married twenty three years. Wait.

1:05:40 for children, we work together, we're communicating it i in all sorts of ways and I think successfully But I now understand there's this additional gear. And I think, yeah. That's the difference. And so one of the books that uh was recommended to me is book called Hold Me Tight by Dr. Sue Johnson.

1:05:57 And I think I would say that she's done Maybe more than anyone else to Bring this adult attachment theory. I think she calls it EMT. to the therapeutic process.

1:06:08 So I think that's a pretty right place to start is to is to is to read what she's written. She has a process a series of conversations. I want to Also Suggests Sue Johnson. She's actually been on the podcast and was uh beyond impressive. Exceeded every possible expectation I could have had.

1:06:26 Uh so I'm I'm glad that you're mentioning her. I think that's that's the place, but I think that is an answer to that question. The only thing I'm concerned about as I try and answer that is To what degree am I reading my autobiography into other people's lives, you know, like

1:06:40 I mean I'm sort of coming at this with the there are thousand X relationships. That is If there's a Purpose to life. It's that.

1:06:48 I'm using a quote and I want to tell you where that's from in a second, but You know, and so therefore my most important relationship is Anna, and therefore As I'm understanding what really creates these disproportionately great relationships is this attachment. Like there's a there's a logic that gets me here, but

1:07:05 Of course somebody else. It's coming in at their lives just a different Mine and different. There's different starting point, they have different ending points. I I wanna be careful about that, but I don't think what we've talked about today is the kind of thing that people regret.

1:07:18 You know, like if you pursued this You're not gonna you the deathbed test, you're not gonna be like My goodness, I can't believe it. I can't believe that I Really figured out the most important relationships and I really invested in them seriously and I got

1:07:31 attached to them and you know, struggled with them and but improved on it. Like are you not gonna regret that journey? It seems to me. No, no definitely not. What was the quote? Was that uh quote? Yeah, this is something, man.

1:07:45 So Okay, so I'm writing new book, doing new research, doing a doctorate University of Cambridge. Inadvertently.

1:07:53 And so What I've learned is something like Like this. We live in the Loneliest.

1:08:01 Yeah. On record. More surface interactions is not Going to hell? At all.

1:08:07 So we have to learn To connect deeply. with vital few people and that that is sort of the work of life. Okay. So that's part of what I've come to as I've been doing all this research and this thinking. So I posted something about that.

1:08:20 In these subjects. On social media and one of the people one of my friends that follows this Said you know what? This is something I just read. It's right on that theme. So that's how I got connected to it. I think it's

1:08:31 Eric Newton, I think is his name. And you can took to Twitter. And he Wrote up. A story of what's happened in his life recently, which is

1:08:44 Heartbreaking, but also life changing and He says he starts off basically saying Look, this is I've wrestled with whether I should share publicly Something that's so

1:08:56 Private. It's a bit tacky. To do that. But Still really glad that he did it. Okay, so I just pulled it up. I was just gonna read a few little bits from it.

1:09:06 He said I lost my wife to cancer last month, our daughter lost her mother. I'm hesitated sharing any of this, but there is something I want to record. Fair warning, this is mostly about love. I'm devastated. A hole has opened where I thought my identity lived. A daughter is doing the same in her toddler way, asking questions.

1:09:24 Slowly understanding what's happened. Breathing and stages. We had a delightful life together, full of intense highs and lows. But two elements that were vastly more important to us than any of this our extraordinary little daughter And the quality of the time we all spent together.

1:09:40 Aubrey and I fell in love early and fast, but we fell more in love during the time she was convalescing than I thought was possible. Facing death every day. Allowed us to set aside the silly things and focus on what matters. The privilege of knowing and loving her so deeply outpaces every other experience I've had. It's the one thing that matters. Okay, I've considered whether to share any of this, obviously

1:10:03 It's tacky to make personal tragedy into a public spectacle. But I wanted to capture something that I've learned. Okay, I'm s skipping here. She says that he says this. We had an epic love affair, and yet we reached a depth of intimacy. While Aubrey was on her deathbed that we'd never had access to before.

1:10:20 That depth of love wasn't available to us any earlier for whatever reason, but it is available. I want to make it available to everyone by reminding you it exists. Aubrey shifted into a deeper love about six weeks before she died. During her time in the hospital, her one regret was that she hadn't spent more time deepening relationships with the people she cared about. The only thing that matters at all.

1:10:44 Is the quality of the relationships with the people we love. Focus on that. I know it sounds trite in a tweet, but I can guarantee you with absolute certainty that when you're dying and you will die. These are the only things you will care about. Aubrey realized this deeply in the most fundamental way because she was running out of time, so she put it into action. It was mostly instinct at first, but by the end her deeper way of loving had become very conscious and intentional.

1:11:09 Her change was palpable, she softened and opened. She began to be with those around her in a Kind of total surrender. We all felt that she was experiencing us without a filter somehow. We were seen and loved. It was beautiful. It was overpowering. It was humbling beyond measure.

1:11:27 As she did all this, those around her began to learn how to do it as well. I learned. Being loved that completely is overwhelming in the best way. It's probably all any of us ever crave. I've tried to carry that love forward ever since. Loving that deeply is a practice. It's like anything. Sometimes it's easy, sometimes it's very hard, but it's always worthwhile.

1:11:46 The key to this kind of love is necessarily different for everyone. I only know one way. Complete surrender to the inevitable death of yourself and those you love. I'm not writing this to proselytize any given path. I simply want to say out loud that it is possible to love with a depth. Brett.

1:12:03 They used to think was fiction. Progressively deepening love is the goal. An end in and of itself is If there is a point. It's that.

1:12:12 That's incredible. I'm just sitting with that for a minute. What a gift to write that down for people also. To absorb. What's your reading? Yeah, so I I reached out to him and so

1:12:24 He's already responded, we're just gonna schedule a time and we're gonna Try and get You know, more of that story and and the the details of it because I think deserves to be told, you know, like When I read that

1:12:36 That sort of is reinforcing and crystallising of all these other themes I've been describing, it's like yeah, he just me he said it. And he said it out of his suffering produced that level of clarity And just like look.

1:12:49 If I don't understand that and then I make my goal list, if I don't understand that and then I just go to email If I don't understand that and I just React. And just Do what I think of a people

1:13:02 Think Is cool or good. Oh they think I mean I shouldn't use this example. I don't know why using this example. I love skiing and so do you, but like Oh, I if if I'm just going skiing because other people think it's cool to go skiing.

1:13:15 If I'm travelling because other people I think other people think It's cool to travel. I could spend my whole life doing that. And really. Miss it. Where is this?

1:13:25 Miss what Eric's. Bated. Quick as Maybe mundane recommendation. Get off social media for a while, folks. Or Ask yourself before you post or actually

1:13:36 Let's rewind. Before you do something, if you could never tell anyone about it outside of maybe your family or closest friends via a phone call, if you could not post it. If you could not put this on social media or in a newsletter or on A blog or Pick your channel YouTube. Would you still do this? And if the answer is no

1:13:55 Don't do it. As an exercise, you can always go back To the The heroine feed. of fake social reinforcement on social media. That's always available, but

1:14:05 Least as an exercise. Ask yourself that question. I've done that. And part of the reason I have no social apps on my phone, and that's been largely true for two or three years now. If you don't have as you mentioned, like if you don't have these

1:14:19 sort of foundational directional documents or Tools. Given the tools at hand, given the information deluge. that is only going to accelerate exponentially with

1:14:33 AI and disinformation and so on. That is going to this year, twenty twenty four, it is going to be at least ten X, probably a hundred X. I mean it is going to multiply so unbelievable. If you do not have these guardrails and these sort of operating principles in place. You are going to lose, right? What you'll lose is personal, but like you are going to lose whatever

1:14:55 Then that could apply in a lot of different domains, but the technology has you completely diagrammed and defeated before you ever Step into these Domains.

1:15:08 billions upon billions of dollars of data science and research and so on that has gone into ensuring that your willpower will not be sufficient. particularly if it doesn't have a trained fixed point in the distance to come back to the being lost in the wilderness. Analogy.

1:15:26 As my job interview. I mean top performers in the world, hundreds of them. And the change that I have seen. For

1:15:36 those people in that subset who are already I think most people would agree in the top one percent of one percent in terms of worldly achievement. The dramatic handicap that I've seen, the dramatic reduction in productivity that I've seen among those people. Who has

1:15:52 Succumb to the siren. Song of Social media specifically is Jaw dropping is truly unbelievable. Just in the last twelve months. what I've observed, it really seems to be going parabolic. So

1:16:06 In any case, I'm gonna stop giving my uh scent of a woman. Speech. Hey, listen, I like that speech and I I think first of all that's right. And either It's

1:16:19 The system Right, like I mean I don't even love the term like uh matrix for various reasons, but it's still helpful too, but like The matrix Is so Consuming and it's so much bigger than me. And it's so much

1:16:34 In that sense more powerful. Now it's it's not if I I'm conscious of it and can step out of it and can Yeah, make it. Yeah, like all of this AI and all of it. Makes a good servant, but it certainly makes a poor master.

1:16:47 And if I'm not conscious that it Is either already my master or is trying to be, then I so uh it's already over. You know, like if I like Ah, it's fine, it's easy. It's like oh okay, well then you you I already lost. The game the battle

1:17:01 If you don't realize you're in a game, you've already lost the game. But let me ask you When you're talking about The priority, your priority, top priority. The one priority. And I'm I'm going to

1:17:13 make mistakes with the wording, but it was along the lines of fostering and cultivating Secure attachment. With your wife. If I remember correctly.

1:17:23 For a lot of people who may be listening, certainly for me also, when I think about that, I'm like yes, yes, and yes, and also Typically if I had a primary goal, let's just say I'll Pull out something that's Less um lower to the ground in a sense that makes it easier to use as an example. Write a screenplay. Let's say I want to write a screenplay this year. That's one of my top goals. Okay, great.

1:17:45 then I can work backwards from that and say, Okay, well what are the sort of antecedents How long do those take? Who do I need to interact with? How should I block those out in the calendar? And then I can execute something resembling

1:17:58 A Blueprint, right? Or a Gantt chart or something like that. With your top priority. How do you ensure that you're taking Meaningful action.

1:18:08 related to that top priority. I know exactly what you're saying. I mean this is the advantage of a concrete goal is that A concrete goal. Almost immediately Presents

1:18:20 The Plan. Or elements of a plan that almost immediately start to arrive. Okay, well if we're doing this, we would have to do A, B, and C and so on. And and that's one of the reason goals are so powerful and And so scary too, because if you

1:18:32 Get your mindset on the wrong goal, you then then You'll be consumed with it and maybe going in the wrong direction. Okay, so how do you do it if if the goal is a relationship, it's really different, isn't it? Because It's not about achieving Checkpoints.

1:18:47 And the very nature of the relationship is that it's symbiotic. But I I think that the way I've been thinking about this is like this. It's I like this intent, the language that I've chosen'cause It's something that It's a metric.

1:19:00 In and of itself. And so it's an immediately Testable metric. Do I feel that right now? Does Anna feel it right now? And then of course you could go from that to each of my children. Do we feel it right now?

1:19:12 And if we don't, let's talk about that. Because now we're having the real conversation. Is that feeling one of Calmness, lack of fear, that you are not withholding. What are the characteristics of

1:19:24 Feeling the yes. Yes. Right. Yeah, I I I'll give you the word mind and then maybe I maybe By the end of the year I'll have

1:19:36 Better More precise ways of Describing these things, but Yes, I think it's really safe, not just sort of safe, really safe. I'm safe.

1:19:45 It's Safe enough to Yeah what you really think and not take it personally. So that there's just space somewhere in the world to be able to express all of that.

1:19:57 that we don't express in any other situation. It's a little bit like this idea that you want your Like Remember somebody as I call just describing this. They said If your children

1:20:08 Or acting out at home. But not at school. Like they're doing well at school, but not at home. You know, the teachers are going, Oh, they're so great here and And you go, Geez, they're they're not so great with us. it's actually just exactly what you want'cause they're safe to be able to act out At home so that people have to be everywhere else. Didn't see that coming. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense.

1:20:27 And and so it's a similar way, I think, in a safely attached relationship, is like you can act out a a bit 'Cause you need somewhere to be able to do that. You can say all your fears, you can say all the nonsense. So I think that's sort of a test of it. If you want to build beyond there, like I I think it's and this is This is I would say the Biggest test for me Is

1:20:46 Can I create Enough time every day for that. So that it's not just A bit here and a bit there, you know, like Normally happens in fact. Because

1:20:56 Just in the same way as If you leave Exercise And you leave your relationships it's just like well we'll just Let that happen.

1:21:05 However it does. Then you end up with Bad relationships. And Ill health.

1:21:11 And that's what normally happens. I mean that's like when I ask people what's essential that they're underinvesting and those are like basically the two most frequent answers. It's not exercising, not eating well in my relationships are you know, my most important relationships A struggling in some way. So it's how do I create like Let's say it.

1:21:29 One to two hours. Per day. Not watching TV. Not together. Not Doing things, not even just talking about

1:21:38 Hey, the what happened today and what's going on and updates and there's loads of that, but Enough time, uninterrupted time. So you actually get Object.

1:21:47 Because whenever I do that Whenever we do that. It works. I mean the difference is Conversation. It's it's

1:21:55 You know, conversation starts at hit right. It's trivial. It's Present it's like okay. This has happened in the news and Jack's uh going to work right now and he just got back and I just it's updates. And then as you go down

1:22:07 It becomes more vulnerable, but it also becomes more essential. And so You have to have enough. time to have those conversations. So that's That's the I'm like, man, I I have to really be willing to make the trade off.

1:22:19 For distinction. This is a question. Because I've developed this. As I'm sure some listeners have this acute allergic reaction to the word processing. You've heard this word, I'm sure, used when it's let's talk about all of the

1:22:32 Difficult emotional things. I would imagine what you're referring to is some version of what people might call quality time where you're getting past just the triage of updates, right? For instance A friend of mine who's been on the podcast quite a few times, Seth Godin, has found that

1:22:50 Preparing meals he would had cooked for his family. as his kids were growing up a lot. And his kids would help with some of the prep where they'd just stand around the kitchen island. And that's when the kids would volunteer a lot, right? And it was in that type of setting. So they were doing something, or he was doing something, but it kind of

1:23:08 Provided. a safe container for all that to happen. But it wasn't like sitting down In two chairs opposite each other. Plumbing the depths of like Deep emotions.

1:23:21 As a conversation, if that makes sense. So I'm I'm wondering When you say making the time, like what forms that time takes. It's quantity and quality. It really is actually making a sacrifice, making the trade off. So examples yes, yes, the what you're saying Seth Good example I think is included. Okay, so

1:23:39 So with my children and with Anna, when I travel I will take somebody with me And so that just provides a lot of Potential for Yeah, rifting it with the surface area. Exactly. And then and then suddenly kind of spontaneously conversations are like that. There's so random and it and then but there's method in the madness too that suddenly

1:23:57 Something more sensitive comes up and now you're talking about that. Real subject and So I think it is There is a structural piece too. For for me with Anna, okay, this the date night.

1:24:08 actually structurally insisting it happened once or even maybe you get to twice a week and you you're sort of forcing The space. To exist. possible conversation. And it can be all sorts of things, but it's a structural piece and I think that

1:24:23 That's non trivial. Space never happens. In all no, never. You know, if I probably go back into like eighteen twenty kind of time.

1:24:33 frame like so pre industrial revolution And I'm not trying to romanticize it. I think that must have been so hard to live then I cannot even imagine. Surviving was so so so hard. You mean you don't want your five year old being a chimney sweep? Yeah, I mean I mean on honestly though, right?

1:24:50 But what They did have An advantage over us is that the sun went down and there wasn't electricity, and so Yep. Could not escape.

1:25:00 The people. in your life in the way we can. It wasn't default it was defaulted in favor of You're yours facing each other. There's not a phone to face. You got a few books, maybe.

1:25:13 probably have the Bible if you have a book and then you have a few other books and you're gonna read from those books and you're gonna talk about them because Once the sun is down, that's what you have. That was a forcing function that we've just completely lost. I talked to somebody one time Here's what it was doing. I was working on a T V show based on essentialism. And so we we're doing like the the trying to kinda create the pitch deck for it. And

1:25:34 And we've selected these people and we're talking to her, she's very National. Together. Woman And

1:25:40 Like maybe even non-emotional even in the interaction and the conversation with the coaching session we were having this speed coaching session. And then quite unexpectedly. Completely unexpectedly for her. She burst into tears. Just

1:25:54 Right in the middle of conversation it just tried to but it shot her. Like Does not do emotion like And it was because she was reflecting on A relationship.

1:26:04 Wait. husband, I think and How basically that That relationship. had become

1:26:11 Both of them in the bed. On their phones. And that that had become so consuming, not an exception, but the Rule of the relationship. Goodness, there's no connection. It's just

1:26:23 But it's so different than what you would have had in eighteen twenty, you know, like There's no phone, there's no technology, there's no It's not there. That that whole system was was gone. So so anyway, I do think you know, right. You that never exists now. You have to create

1:26:37 Acent. And so it that's the structural element I would say is that I And I've stunted saying okay, I Once a quarter we go away ourselves and it's not just

1:26:49 Hey, we're going on a little vacation, it's like we we are trying to go Deliberately. Oh. Really we're here to talk. Let's talk beyond the things we get to normally

1:27:00 And we got miles to go, but we just got back from The last one and it was I mean, that was an amazing it was an amazing trip, but it was so helpful and So we scheduled the next one and it wasn't three months later, it's probably about six months later that we'll we'll go to that specific location again because it worked so well. And so it's You know, I think it's

1:27:20 It's the daily Scheduling It's the The weak structure. The monthly strikes, quarterly strikes you right.

1:27:28 And all of these things I think once you start exploring them, you're like, Okay, well that's what you would do with other goals as well, but But it's not getting it. Done. Done. as you are with other goals, right? Checking it off the list.

1:27:40 Project is complete. This relationship is not an Is not A means to an end. relationship.

1:27:47 Is the end. Um yeah. So That's w how I think it's

1:27:54 Right. Yeah. Eve, you mentioned the eighteen twenty And I just wanted to Say that.

1:28:02 I have spent a lot of time in South America and Africa and some very rural locations. And I've then gone back and visited these places after Cell phones? And

1:28:14 Very slight broadband penetration. And then post broadband. I've been able to see what has happened. So Those places have resembled in probably more ways than not.

1:28:27 The eighteen twenties you described, right? Tight social bonds. In part because that is the entertainment they have. Right? And Very little electricity. So also

1:28:37 Life tends to slow down. People are communal at night. They wake up, they go to the farm very often. And then as things are introduced, for instance, I went to two different villages in northern Ethiopia And chatting with One of the interpreters who is helping.

1:28:54 This group and He was mentioning that one town was really unhappy. And the other town was very happy because I was commenting how I found Ethiopian people in general to be very upbeat. And to smile easily and so on. I asked him why that one village was unhappy and he said, Well, they got

1:29:13 satellite television introduced and now they see the Kardashians and reality TV and they know how much they're missing. Literally that's what he said. Uh, not in those exact words, but more or less that. And and then if I look at, for instance, some of these places in South America is as another example that I visited. Which now have

1:29:32 say Starlink and other means of Readily accessible, easily accessible. twenty four seven broadband. They're

1:29:42 Suffering from all of the same distractions and issues now, the fracturing of social bonds. The isolation Not to the extent that you see in a city like New York City, of course, but you're seeing the same phenomenon. And so much like Sometimes. People have heard the expression, you know, it's the economy is stupid.

1:29:59 On some level like it's the tools stupid. Like it you you you don't assume you are fundamentally flawed. Yeah there there's there's always a lot of self work to do and there's the project is never finished, but also Let's look at the Occam's razor. contribution here to a lot of these issues and so much malaise and sense of discontent.

1:30:21 Which is the tools. So like turn off the tools. Or at least ration the tools and see what happens. And then I would say Just uh

1:30:29 kinda bring this full circle that this conversation's been super, super Helpful for me. It's given me a lot to think about. Also I'm I'm still thinking about the patriarchal blessing and what my version of that could be something that I revisit on a regular basis. So I'm actually fortunate that I'm spending time right now with a friend of mine. My only male friend who is incredibly well versed with poetry, or at least younger male friend. So his I can I can visit his li mental library to see what he matches for me.

1:30:56 So I'm thinking about that and then also once again about systems and structure for Not just Busy CEOs but for almost anyone who has barraged With

1:31:07 The sensory overload. And uninvited inputs. and stimuli that anyone listening to this is. without structure, without putting things in the calendar, without a plan. the most important things are not gonna take care of themselves.

1:31:23 You're not just automatically going to have time And A program for Self care for the gym. for your most important relationships. It's not gonna happen accidentally.

1:31:35 Or at least the odds are against it, so The better plan is to plan. Yeah. That's it right there. Is how do you stack the decks in your favor'cause they're currently stacked against you.

1:31:45 I'm not making a plug, I'm just expressing the reason I did it, right? The reason I wrote effortless ultra essentialism was I like you have to build a system. That makes it The default. That you'll do the essentials. And not do the non essentials.

1:32:01 And I already said that in essentialism, actually, but it was like People didn't They just heard Oh yeah, you gotta do the essentials versus non essentials and And then I hear the feedback over years and years, well hard to do and it's like

1:32:12 It's like yeah, you on doing it. Because you figured out what's essential, you figured out what's not essential, but then you didn't maybe realize the system is so Bill.

1:32:23 The non essential. Easy. Immediately your fingertips. Addictive. And so on. So

1:32:30 Now you go how do I It's not easy to build the system, but you build a system that then makes the Execution easier. So on that

1:32:40 Strongly recommend that. Everybody. Read. Effortless. Uh I'm going to reread it. And I will also say that there's a

1:32:49 corollary to what you just said that I've found helpful And that is one way to make the default easier is to make Not doing the default. Harder slash painful. Exactly. You wanna make the you wanna make the non essential hard to do, precisely.

1:33:06 for twenty twenty four, and I've done this for a few years now, but looking at my top relationships. I don't have my own nuclear family right now. I mean out I don't have progeny, is what I'm trying to say. So I'm looking largely at my f at my yes. Yes. So I'm looking at my family, my mom And my you know imm immediate family, but parents and so on. siblings then I'm looking at my closest friends and I'm blocking out

1:33:29 Time in the calendar, getting commitments for, say, trips or People coming to visit, et cetera. making it happen and putting in in my case, right, let's just say these are trips. Sunk costs. So that it is

1:33:44 actually painful for me to undo the thing that I know is good for me. Does that make sense? I might write a blog post on this because it's been on my mind for six months now. I've been talking to friends about it. It's just like Choosing the right sunk costs, like sunk cost. And some fallacy can

1:33:58 steer you in the wrong direction, but you can actually use it to steer you in the right direction. And uh that's that's something that I've thought a h a hell of a lot about. No, I like that so much because you're right. You know, I generally talk about it in the in the in the worst sense. But if you were gonna design humans for for success

1:34:18 You probably would want It to be true that The thing you've committed to You want to stay committed to. Right, like

1:34:27 You probably would want to design Where people and to continue to do the thing that they've been doing because they have invested so much in it. In a way it's like When they change divorce law.

1:34:37 In the UK originally Of course it was intended In a certain way. And and I think it Was Maybe even well intended, I would say, because

1:34:46 You don't want people to be desperately stuck and certainly you don't want anyone ever to be in an abusive relationship and then they just cannot get out because the laws are so strict. So there's obviously scenarios in which that helps, but the disadvantage is that it incentivized this kind of like snowfall divorce. It's like, hey, I'm just I'm out now. Actualization is the priority, it's always, always easy to think that's going to lead to greater happiness, even though

1:35:10 The data suggests that people that are divorced, like five years later, the majority wish they weren't and that ha they hadn't and that they could go back and change it, but it's obviously too late now. And And so it's just interesting to think about what you're saying about like yes Committing Doing things where you You go, I know it's the right thing.

1:35:27 How can I Commit in a way that I will be following through even when I Feel like getting out. feel like I would would would rather not do this thing now. It's like no, you do want to be

1:35:40 Locked in. Yeah, for sure, man. Well, Greg, this has been so much fun. It's nice to hear your voice. And Where can people find you if we end up publishing this and we'll talk more about it. You know what there is a single thing

1:35:51 It took me it took us way longer than I thought it was gonna take to to build this. It's totally free. literally takes people ten seconds to sign up for it. It is where to start. With essentialism and with effortless. And it's uh you go to Greg McCuan dot com, it's right there on the home page. It's a thirty day

1:36:07 Email program, you get a whole Workbook that goes With it. Completely free. Easy, ten seconds to sign up. And it answers that question, where do you start? And how do you how do you spell your name, dear sir?

1:36:18 Oh yeah, that's fair enough. G R E G Greg McCoon is M C K E O W N so G R E G M C K E O W N dot com right there on the home page, people can sign up and they'll get an email every few days. They can also just get the workbook.

1:36:34 Print it up and work through ten lessons. Carefully curated. Combining the best. All of that published. Written work.

1:36:41 Beautiful. And I'm gonna dig back into your writing as well. That's that's on my to do list. And Successful experiment. I enjoyed doing this. I appreciate you being game to to mess around with it. No, I love it. I think it's I think it's a really smart move for you to do it. You got so Podcast straight. I mean I have my podcast too. I know like it hits you, it comes at you so fast to see your content. You're always in trying to create content, you know, mode. And it's nice if you can if you can walk and just uh build it into your Natural regaining.

1:37:11 Trying to do the Or on its own, and that is I've realized a lot of my constraining physical issues, right? My Principle physical

1:37:24 Ailment that affected my last year was this Preminal stenosis at L four L five, just some. lower back issues. I mean, there is no just to it. It's been kinda cataclysmic and its implications for my sleep and for many other things. However

1:37:38 What what I've concluded I'm on the mend. But what I've concluded is it's directly the pain is directly correlated to sitting time. So The more I sit, the more it hurts.

1:37:49 The more consistently it hurts, the longer it hurts. And I looked at the the driving forces. Or the different converging trends related to, say, podcasting. Several of which lead to

1:38:02 The creation of basically fixed television studios. Right, most podcasters if they're aiming to be highly competitive. And to feed growth are

1:38:13 Building studios, legitimately building what would be recognized as television studios, and that is Antithetical to my reasons for starting the podcast, number one. Right. So the the characteristics including Mobility. sort of ease and

1:38:29 Ease of lightweight production. Those are the opposite of what is what is happening and what I on some level feel driven to do. because I am competitive, so I have to be aware of that. It doesn't always serve me. It can serve me, but it doesn't always serve me. And so I asked myself this question. I asked myself A lot I should probably ask myself more often, frankly, which is what if I did the opposite? Not just What if I did twenty percent less?

1:38:51 Not doing T V studio light, but what if I actually Did the opposite. So the oppos what would the opposite look like? Well, Instead of sitting in a fixed location, I would be moving. And I would double down on lightweight so that my production would actually become More likely not More heavyweight.

1:39:08 And Let me test that for a month. And sprinkle it in and see what happens, right? Because I can always go back to the other But

1:39:17 From the perspective of trying to Think for myself and not succumb to Group think and also just External pressure. But also trying to

1:39:29 Not just avoid pain, but produce wellness in my life. This is an experiment worth running. So I have thoughts on this now. Number one is And I I'm not trying to be commercial in in saying this. You are describing

1:39:43 An effortless strategy, right? Like it's inverting it. Saying Like literally it's like Judge Judge Sannya do the opposite. We literally think There is seriously this idea that better is harder, so therefore

1:39:55 Okay, we Oh well look at all these people, look at what they're all doing. Oh, I have to have the studio. Mine needs to be better than their studio and cooler than that studio. We have to have Hold it. It's like, well that's one strategy and maybe that is the that maybe that's the way, but What if w is there an effortless way to do this that actually supports what I really want in my life? I love that you're do I love you're going in the other direction.

1:40:14 And the other thing is Do you have a walking desk yet? So I Do have a walking desk. And

1:40:22 I really want to be Outside and or around people. Yeah. So I'm I'm messing with that, but but yes, I do have a walking desk. I love my walking desk. I'm on it right now, this whole conversation, I've been doing it. That way we could have

1:40:36 I don't wanna work unless I'm Walking now. I literally just think it's so much better for my mind. Of course it's better for your body, but it's just I feel healthier mentally when I'm doing this. Kudos.

1:40:50 Yeah. What fun, man. It's really nice to hear your voice and this has been also very personally helpful for me to think about the upcoming year. So I uh Really do.

1:41:01 I really do appreciate it. Tim, it's been a genuine pleasure. Really man. Well, all thanks to your proactive outreach. So Final thought on that is like What I want you to feel.

1:41:13 Forget like all the self atta they sound like attachment stuff but like what I want you to feel about me really is like this. Like I just feel A sense of like I wanna be there just Him.

1:41:26 The Tim. This is spawned in this fun thing and having this conversation in a way that's that that's helpful to your podcast and also, of course, it's uh it's It's helpful to me, I'm sure in various subjects in various ways, right? Reach your idea it's like I get that this is spawned into this.

1:41:42 But like I want you to feel that Amongst your group, right, you've got your group of people and your people But Greg is like one of these people in your world who's not looking for something from you. is concerned about you.

1:41:54 And that's really for real, for real for me. Like That's my intent and that's what I want you to to think. The day you feel the worst. Any Text me.

1:42:05 I want you to be able to feel safe on that day to go. Great. I'm here. This is the worst. Yeah, thanks, man. Yeah, I appreciate that. And I take that to heart. So thank you very much. Thank you.

1:42:17 We'll talk to you soon, then. Take care. Bye bye. Hey guys, this is Tim again, just one more thing before you take off, and that is Five Bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend? Between one and a half and two million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter called Five Bullet Friday. Easy to sign up, easy to cancel. It is basically a half page that I send out every Friday to share the coolest things I've found or discovered or have started exploring over that week. It's kinda like my diary of cool things. It often includes articles I'm reading, books I'm reading. albums perhaps gadgets gizmos all sorts of tech tricks and so on that get sent to me by my friends including a lot of podcast guests and these strange esoteric things end up in my field and then I test them and then I share them with you. So if that sounds fun again it's very short

1:43:14 a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend, something to think about. If you'd like to try it out, just go to Tim.blog slash Friday. Type that into your browser, Tim.blog slash Friday. Friday, drop in your email, and you'll get the very next one. Thanks for listening. This episode is brought to you by Helix Sleep. Helix Sleep is a premium mattress brand that provides tailored mattresses based on your sleep preferences. Their lineup includes 14 unique mattresses, including a collection of luxury models, a mattress for big and tall sleepers, that's not me, and even a mattress made specifically for kids. They have models with memory foam layers to provide optimal pressure relief if you sleep on your side, as I often do and did last night on one of their beds.

1:43:54 Models with more responsive foam to cradle your body for essential support in stomach and back sleeping positions and on and on. They have you covered. So how will you know which Helix mattress works best for you and your body? Take the Helix Sleep Quiz at helixsleep.com slash Tim and find your perfect mattress in less than two minutes. Personally, for the last few years, I've been sleeping on a Helix Midnight Lux Mattress. I also have one of those in the guest bedroom and feedback from friends has always been fantastic. They frequently say it's the best night of sleep they've had in ages. It's something they comment on without any prompting from me whatsoever. Helix mattresses are American made and come with a 10 or 15 year warranty, depending on the model. Your mattress will be shipped straight to your door free of charge, and there's no better way to test out a new mattress than by sleeping on it in your own home. That's why they offer a 100 night risk-free trial. If you decide it's not the best fit, you're welcome to return it for a full refund.

1:44:48 Helix has been awarded number one mattress by both GQ and Wired magazines. And now Helix has harnessed years of extensive mattress expertise to bring you a truly elevated sleep experience. Their newest collection of mattresses called Helix Elite includes six different mattress models, each tailored for specific sleep positions. And firmness. preferences so you can get exactly what your body needs. Each Helix Leap mattress comes with an extra layer of foam for pressure relief and thousands of extra microcoils for best in class support and durability. Every Helix Leap mattress also comes with a 15 year manufacturer's warranty and the same 100 night trial as the rest of Helix's mattresses. And you You, my dear listeners, can get 20% off of all mattress orders, plus two free pillows. So go to helixsleep.com/slash Tim. To learn more, that's Helix Sleep, H E L I X, Helix Sleep.com slash Tim. This is their best offer.

1:45:45 to date and it will not last long. So take a look. With Helix, better sleep starts now. This episode is brought to you by AG1, the daily foundational nutritional supplement that supports whole body health. I view AG1 as comprehensive nutritional insurance and that is nothing new. I actually recommended AG1 in my 2010 bestseller more than a decade ago, the four hour body, and I did not get paid.

1:46:12 to do so. I simply love the product and felt like it was the ultimate nutritionally dense supplement that you could use conveniently while on the run, which is for me a lot of the time. I've been using it a very, very long time indeed. And I do get asked a lot what I would take if I could only take one supplement. And the true answer is invariably AG1. It simply covers a ton of bases. I usually drink it in the mornings and frequently take their travel packs with me on the road. So what is Agewar?

1:46:41 What is this stuff? AG1 is a science-driven formulation of vitamins, probiotics, and whole food source nutrients. In a single scoop, AG1 gives you support for the brain, gut, and immune system. Since 2010, they have improved the formula 52 times in pursuit of making the best foundational nutrition supplement possible. using rigorous standards and high quality ingredients. How many ingredients? 75. And you would be hard pressed to find a more nutrient dense formula on the market. It has a multivitamin, multi-mineral, superfood complex, probiotics and prebiotics for gut health, an antioxidant immune support formula Digestive enzymes and adaptogens to help manage stress. Now, I do my best always to eat nutrient dense meals. That is the basic, basic, basic, basic requirement, right? That is why things are called supplements. Of course, that's what I focus on, but it is not always possible, it is not always easy. So part of my routine is using AG1 daily. If I'm on the road, on the run, it just makes it easy to get a lot of nutrients at once and to sleep easy knowing that I am checking a lot of important boxes. So each morning, AG1.

1:47:52 That's just like brushing my teeth, part of the routine. It's also NSF certified for sports, so professional athletes trust it to be safe. And each pouch of AG1 contains exactly what is on the label, does not contain harmful levels of microbes or heavy metals. and is free of 280 band substances. It's the ultimate nutritional supplement in one easy scoop. So take ownership of your health and try AG1 today. You will get a free one year supply of vitamin D and five free AG1 travel packs with your first subscription purchase. So learn more, check it out. go to drinkag1.com slash Tim. That's drinkag1, the number one. DrinkAG1.com slash Tim. Last time, drinkAG1.com slash Tim. Check it out.

What you see above is a preview of the first minutes. One unlock costs 10 credits and covers this episode forever: full segment and word-level timestamps on this page, plus .txt, .srt, .vtt and word-level JSON downloads, as many times as you like.