#828: David Senra — How Extreme Winners Think and Win: Lessons from 400+ of History’s Greatest Founders and Investors (Including Buffett, Munger, Rockefeller, Jobs, Ovitz, Zell, and Names You Don’t Know But Should)

0:00 Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs, welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris Show. My guest today is David Senra. David is the host of the Founders Podcast, a cult favorite. At this point, which explores the life and work of hundreds of history's greatest entrepreneurs. For each episode, he does something that most people will not do. He reads one or more biographies about a single founder and then shared the key lessons. It has become incredibly popular. His new podcast, David Center, is brought to you by the Huberman Lab. Team. It showcases conversations with the best of the best living founders and extreme winners. You can visit DavidSenra dot com. That's S E N R A, DavidSenra dot com for all things David, and to check out the new show. And now without further ado, please enjoy this very wide ranging conversation with David Senra. Optimal minimal. At this altitude I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking.

0:53 Can I answer you a personal question? Now it is. My cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal metal skeleton. No Who is Brad Jacobs?

1:13 So Brad Jacobs is I think the only person in history To start eight. Separate. billion dollar companies.

1:20 So a lot of people like on the the the West Coast, you know, and Texan, they don't really know who he is'cause he's just been an east coast guy his whole life. But he started his first company when he was like twenty three. He's sixty eight years old. He is by far the most energetic person I have ever been around. And he wrote this book called How to Make a Few Billion Dollars.

1:36 What are some of his companies? He's like the roll up king. So like he'd roll up like logistics companies and trucking companies and now he's got a massive one. Uh they he just took public that's doing like building supplies. And so like early in your career you might roll up like

1:50 A five million dollar company or a twenty million dollar company. His first acquisition I think was like nine billion dollars. So he's like He just gets progressively like bigger and bigger and bigger. But what I find interesting about him is Usually when you study like extreme winners and he's obviously an extreme winner.

2:05 What motivates them is like kind of dark. Like Issues with their father. Some kind of insecurity it never felt good enough. They grew up poor and they felt they were born in like the wrong place.

2:15 Brad does it out of Love. He's got no negativity. He's just a very special human being. And the fact that I get to text him and call him and go to his house is insane. He's just an amazing human being. There's another legend who defeated Roulette and then went on to beat the market, Ed Thorpe. Yes. Probably another

2:33 Exception. Right, where he exception. The exception. Where he Did not eviscerate. his personal life in the quest for Business mastery.

2:44 Yeah, I don't think anybody's mastered life clearly as much as that Dorp did. Your interview your two interviews that you did with him were incredible. Yeah, thank you. That was uh It's such a Such a moment of gratitude to have the chance to interview him. Especially s because he is so so sharp at his age. Can't recall his exact age right now. It's like eighty nine. Yeah. That's the if you want a holistic

3:05 figure. to consider emulating Ed Thorpe would be on a very, very, very short list. I can think of three out of four hundred. All right. Who are the who are the three? Ed Thorpe's at the top. Sol Price, who's the one that invented essentially like the warehouse model, like Costco, like Jim Sinegal was was mentored by Sol Price when Jim Sinegal was eight like eighteen. So Jim Sinagle, founder of Costco. built one of the greatest companies in history.

3:26 And he has this great line in Sul Price's autobiography and Soul Price's son wrote his biography. People like, Oh, you must have when Soul died, he's like, You must have learned a lot from Soul. He goes, No, I didn't learn a lot. I learned everything. Everything that I know I learned from this guy. So sole price, same thing. Good husband, good father.

3:43 Didn't chase after more money at the expense of other areas of his life after he already had enough money, which is what Ed Thor Turn down. So much hundreds of millions, if not billions. You could have like collected. You're just like I already have more money than I can ever spend. Like why would I do that?

3:57 And then I would say Brunella Cuccinelli. How are those examples different? You should Explain for folks. I mean look, everything I'm wearing I got for free. So you should explain to people I did not know the last name you mentioned until a few years ago. Yeah. Because I won't doxum, but Tony My friend Tony is basically covered.

4:15 And Brunello. Who is this? So Brunello Cucinelli wrote this. I don't even know the name. I I read the book. It's like something about Salomeo. Essentially he sells Five thousand dollar sweater? He sells sweaters that were more than my first car. But he grew up in like very rural

4:31 Italy. And then everybody at the time there was essentially the hollowing out of his community. Everybody had moved to the cities. He is a very soulful dude. So Brunello essentially works, he essentially bounds his life where it's like you work nine to five. You're not allowed to like send an email to the company after five.

4:47 You have to like take a break for lunch and have this like great Italian food. And then he spends his nights reading and then going on long walks and then sitting in the cafes in this like little town that he essentially like rebuilt and reinvested in. He likes having cappuccino and like Debating philosophy. He's just like a real soulful dude. Now, the one criticism people have is like, Yeah, that business model works when you have, you know, seventy percent margins and your sweaters are

5:09 As much as a Honda Civic, you know. But he It was very intention I don't care what people do. He's just very intentional. So let me come back to this question of clean fuel versus let's call it dirty fuel, and there's a lot in between, so I don't want to look at it in a totally binary way.

5:25 But why do you think of the say four hundred plus that you can only call to mind Three or four. Ed Thorpe, Saul Price, Brunella Cuccinelli. Brad Jacobs. Why are there so few? We see him. driven in that particular

5:41 let's just call it positive way, or that they can pursue business excellence. without having a lot of collateral damage in their personal lives. What do you draw from that? And look, maybe these are just different animals. And out of the box these four are just fundamentally different from the other three hundred and ninety six or so. What is your take?

6:00 One. That thin slice of the total. I would add another one to the list. You've also interviewed him, Michael Dell. Recently I've spent like hours and hours with them. We had like a five hour dinner.

6:11 And then I just recorded a two and a half hour conversation with him for the new show. Hm. Is in love. His is very positive. Now he has a big fear of failure. Which almost I think me and you probably share this is like

6:23 Well I'm I wanna speak for you, I want to ask you actually, like I am way more afraid. of failure, then like I love winning. I mean that's true for everyone I know who wins a lot. I don't think I can think of a single exception.

6:37 In terms of someone who celebrates the wins as much as they punish themselves for the losses. I'm not saying that's a good thing. I'm just saying that's Pattern matching. But even now, with all the success that you've had, like is your inner monologue still Negative.

6:52 I mean, there's a lot of negative I'm working on that. I Look at some of the I don't want to call them maxims, but You've quoted the I think it was the founder of the four seasons. Yeah. Excellence is the capacity to take pain. Right. And

7:09 There may be some truth to that. But I feel like it's very risky for me to take something like that. and wear it as a marching order for life because I already tilt in that direction. And

7:24 Not all pain is productive. Mm-hmm. And I think for me When you are already tilted in that direction where you believe if there isn't pain, if there isn't some degree of suffering and you're not trying hard enough.

7:38 It's very easy to become a hammer looking for nails. And that can have a lot of repercussions for your relationships also. For sure. And if you're Self talk is negative, at least in my experience and what I've seen in a lot of my friends and peers and founders.

7:56 Very often You end up having a similar type of dialogue with people around you. And that can have huge repercussions. So That doesn't give anyone a neat, tidy

8:08 silver bullet of an answer. Yeah. But yeah, the negative self talk There's a place for it, but like the nuance to me. Matters a lot. If it's like you're a piece of shit, you always do X, why don't you do Y? And that has a good outcome. I would still

8:24 Wanna refine the process. I read this biography of Jensen Wong, which is fascinating'cause it's like Right after one of the best quarters in NVIDIA history. He starts this meeting.

8:34 He says I woke up this morning, looked in the mirror, and said, Why do you suck so much? So he's definitely driven by He's hardcore. Oh, he's very hardcore. He's hardcore. He's hardcore. So I guess uh what I'd also like to ask you is about not necessarily the people you study. And hopefully you take this as a compliment. It's intended like the highest compliment, but when people ask me about you, And they're like, So what's the story? Like why do people like his stuff? And I'm like, Well, you know, I I can only really speculate, but I feel like you are

9:03 In a way. Like What Dan Carlin did with Hardcore History, like You do for business. And

9:12 Hardcore history is my favorite podcast of all. I I think Dan Cronin's the greatest podcast I ever live. Okay. A solo history show. Is because Dan Carlin I've given away his back catalogue. I wish you would change his business model.

9:23 It is a bit janky. But like if you want to just listen to like The greats. I mean the Wrath of the Cons. Blueprint for Armageddon. Wrath of Cons, I think, is the best Podcast series ever created. In my opinion.

9:37 Blue fruit for Armageddon, like Just Everything. I've listened to he only's like fifty five episodes. He was doing it for like fifteen years. I fell asleep at night. Right now, last night I fell asleep listening to

9:48 His new one. six months old'cause he never releases any episode. Mania for subjugation part two about the relationship between Alexander the Great and King Philip. Amazing. He just puts me to sleep. He is the greatest. So the you know, the reason that

10:01 I mention that. It's like I feel like I've learned so much from Dan Carlin. I have learned so much from your episodes. I'm curious though. As an I know another person you're a fan of, Derek Sivers, who I've known I think since two thousand seven. Amazing entrepreneur. People can look him up. I'll give the

10:18 One liner, which is sort of this like philosopher king. programmer entrepreneur who started companies gave the vast majority to a charitable trust to fund musical education. at one point was the ringleader in a traveling circus, played guitar and sang at like a Pig State Fair.

10:37 And has just crafted the most unusual and Derek life for himself. And given his family permission to do the same for themselves. really a true original thinker who also

10:50 shows it in his actions. This is where I'm going. So Derek has this line, which is a long The uh I may be paraphrasing it slightly, but it the gist is, you know, if more information were the answer, we'd all be billionaires with six pack abs. So what do you see?

11:07 or surmise about people who make the leap from listening to your podcast about all of these icons. And people who have Not just, you know, once you're lucky twice you're good, but in some cases they built you know eight. Yeah. billion dollar companies or that case I might come back to the acquisition kind of roll up archetype.

11:26 So the people who make the leap from ingesting information to actually implementing and those who don't. What's the missing Peace in the middle. The way I think about it, the the maximum I've made for myself on this is like learning is not memorizing information, learning is changing your behavior. And so if you didn't change your behavior, you're this is just all mental

11:43 Gymnastics for you. You're just wasting your time. And so what I'm trying to do I didn't even understand what I was doing. I had to have as m many Happens in many cases, like somebody outside

11:53 Of you seeing what you're doing. Actually gives you what this whole thing is about. I have a good friend of mine, his name's Jeremy Gaffan. And he's really quick witted. And he has a way to like condense ideas really well.

12:05 And we're just walking around, taking a walk in Miami Beach one day. And he's like, Oh yeah, it's pretty obvious like what this whole thing is. And I didn't even think he was thinking about it, right? I was like, What do you mean? And he's just like oh you never had

12:16 Any positive influences. You didn't have any mentors. And so if you you take somebody like you who's like psychopathically driven And really ups has an obsessive personality. Like that's what this whole thing is you're just reading book after book after book to try to find the path, to try to find the answer, to try to find the way out. And I felt like naked.

12:33 When he said this, I'm like, I think he's right. I think he's right. And so for me, like I'm definitely not just reading. Like I've been taking all these ideas. The unfair advantage I have is like I have One sided conversations with history squased entrepreneurs, right? So like Every week I sit down and read another biography.

12:48 And then Because I like to talk. This is good because I I have to shut up. I can only listen because This is what I think it is. That's what I think reading a biography is like a one side conversation.

12:58 And then I take that. And I would be doing this even if I didn't record it, but then sitting down once a week and condensing my thoughts. Right, and reacting to it. Turns into an act of service.

13:08 Right. So then I take the ideas and I'm like, Oh, that's a good idea. I'll take that and apply it to my business, which is the podcast. And it it keeps getting better and better. And it's like, Oh, these ideas work. So I'll keep doing this. And then now what has happened is The people that are trying to be great have studied great people that can before them.

13:22 Throughout human history. Caesar was studying Alexander and like Steve Jobs was studying Edwin Land and Edwin Land was studying Alexander Grimbell and everybody if you're interested in American entrepreneurship, it all kind of Goes back to Benjamin Franklin. Everybody looks backwards like that guy or that woman was great. How did they do that? And so that is an enduring

13:40 part of human nature will never change. It's gonna happen while we're alive. It's gonna happen a thousand years from now. And so when I didn't understand what I was doing Is that you put it out into the world just like your work is like a tuning fork. Like Then the people that are really great.

13:53 also do this and they have a deep love of history. And so if you look at the people that I've been Talking to you. From the new show that's not even released yet. They came Because they're

14:04 Fans, they're in the audience. And it's just like the parasocial relationship people have with podcasts. I'm closer to the people on Spotify spent Been a stock home twice the last six months. And I was talking to the head of business at Spotify his name's Alex.

14:16 We were talking for two and a half hours, like pretty animated. And I was like I'm not building a media company. I'm building relationships at scale. And he's like, What? You say that again. I go, What a podcast is is building relationships to scale. This is the first time we've ever met.

14:29 We should talk about how I found you. I found you on MySpace. I'm gonna tell you that when I was like But like the reason we and we'll go to like the influence that you played on having founders just like But I know who you are. Like we could sit down and talk for Eight hours because I know you. There's no possible way I can consume all of your books.

14:44 And I don't know, six hundred hours of your podcast and not know Tim. You can't act. For that long. And so what I didn't understand is like oh This other path of me trying to find Good information, valuable information. Like I came from a family that it was like

14:58 I'm the first to graduate college. That's nice. No one even graduated high school in my family. Like there's no reading, there's no self improvement. The only thing my family read is the Bible. And like that can be taken to a crazy extreme. My mom didn't go to prison.

15:10 Yeah, exactly. The first and My grandfather? My I shouldn't even say this publicly anymore. You have a big podcast. I uh I would say stuff on small podcasts and forget that things get bigger later on. So I say crazy stuff I should not be saying, but whatever, we're too late now. But yeah, my grandfather. My father. My brother. Like I remember being in high school and hearing Bang and

15:29 Five guys at five thirty in the morning come and grab my brother and I don't see him for four years. Like that's a fact. So My point being is Then I'm like

15:36 Oh wait, I put this podcast out and then it attracts the same people that are in the books and then Yeah, the fact that I could spend five Hours with Michael Dell. And he tweets about the podcast and LinkedIn about it and just giving me phenomenal advice.

15:50 And then we obviously we recorded a conversation, but before that, they just want to help you. Because they got value from that. I Just a quick thanks to our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show.

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20:15 Tim. I wanna go back to the note taking. And then

20:22 converting that into some type of action. Yes. You've done that. You're hitting You've had a number of these, but inflection points where it now you can sit down

20:32 With some of these. icons and have these extended conversations. Even if you did not have that direct access Maybe your process with the note taking wouldn't change. I'm just curious how you read one biography or multiple biographies on a person. And

20:48 What the actual note taking process looks like, right? Because I have I'll volunteer. What I do a lot. I use Kindle not for the convenience of the device, although that is convenient. Not because I can listen on Audible or actually do it through the Kindle app and then stop and highlight things, which is also why I use it.

21:06 But The highlighting overall. Is the reason. And then exporting or using something like ReadWise in addition to synthesizing my highlights and I believe you also use ReadWise quite a bit.

21:19 I'm not sure if you still use it. Oh yeah. But what does your process look like? And I know, for instance, like Maria Popova, who's this like voluminous, prodigious genius of a writer. Used to be brain picking since the margin alien now. she has a very particular process for like synthesizing and putting everything together. How do you do that? Okay, so I actually think I'm gonna sit down and make an episode about how I make these.

21:41 There's actually a an older idea here. that um I just went through when I reread James Dyson's autobiography, both of them actually, but the first autobiography I read like five times. Second one, I think this is the second or third time I read it. But one of the genius things that he did You know, when no one knew he was.

21:55 Dyson wasn't a thing. Like now it's one of the most valuable private help companies in the world. You walk into a retail store. He had one product in one market at the time. And you see, you know, I'm gonna buy a back and cleaner. Five of them kinda look the same and then you have this like alien looking thing at the end. But then what he said, he's like, Hey, what is the advantage I have? I'm going against all these like huge multi

22:14 national conglomerates and I'm just some bloke that cares about vacuum cleaners in this remote part of England. So he convinced all the retailers. To let him write a story. on a little leaflet and they would hang it on The handle the of the Dyson.

22:27 And it tells the story, it's in like two or three hundred words of who made it. Why they made it. Why they love it so much and why you should buy it. People buy stories. So that's what what I was saying is like

22:37 That's not the first time I came across that idea. You go back to the early nineteen hundreds. And there's this guy named Claude Hopkins. I am always interested. You are I read Scientific advertising? Yes, in the very beginning.

22:49 Okay. I'm always interested who influences the influencers. Right. Right. So let me give you an example. God, I haven't thought of that name in so many years. So much shit on this. Claude Hopkins. So Like I became obsessed, we we were talking before recorded, that we both Well I won't speak for you.

23:04 Love and admire. And mine is borderline idolized. Charlie Mugger. If I can only learn from one person for rest of my life. If I could say hey.

23:12 You can only read this guy's words. Pick one person, I'm picking Munger. I just love everything about him and the idea that I got to meet him is insane. Like absolutely insane. So when I'm reading about Munger and Buffett. I'm like, man, these guys are really genius. I didn't know anything at the time. It's like,

23:25 Ten years ago. And I'm like, these guys are genius and then they kept mentioning This guy named Henry Singleton. Over and over again. And they will tell you if you admire somebody What I think is hugely important.

23:35 They will tell you who influence them and then you have to go and read about these people. And then you'll find Who influenced them. And you realize that the ideas didn't start with them. They don't start with us. They can't die with us either. You have to push them forward down the generations. And so I'm like, Oh, this guy's interesting.

23:49 Charlie Munger said that the smartest person he ever met was Henry Singleton? He's best friends with Buffett. Like Buffett's obviously I was How did he say that? And then Buffett says that it's a crime.

23:59 That business schools don't study singleton? That's hell of a ling like that's Strong language. And so then you start reading them like, Oh my God, the ideas that I thought were Buffett and Mungers. We're singletons. And so you see this over and over again. I was obsessed. Another guy that Buffett introduced me was David Ogre. David Ogby, I think is one of the best writers I've ever come across.

24:19 And Buffett keeps mentioning these shelf herself like this genius named David Ogie. Why is Buffett calling this guy a genius? I read Og V stuff at the same time that I read Hopkins. Cause if you read Ogie he what does he talk about? He's like that's the genius. I'm not the genius. I'm just regurgitating Claude Hopkins work. And then he tells the story of Albert Lasker. Who made more money

24:39 There's like, you know, this let's call'em a dozen great advertising agency founders. Yeah, the madman era. And the one that made the most money was this guy named Albert Lasker, and he had the simplest business. No art department. No research department.

24:51 He had Claude Hopkins writing copy and his words rang the cash register. And if you can bring more customers to businesses, they will pay you a lot of money. And it turns out that this guy wrote Claude Hopkins wrote this book called Scientific Advertising. He would try to publish it.

25:05 It was essentially the way he it's the secrets of Lasker And Lasker. Hid it in a safe for twenty years. And if you read I'll get that right over to the agent. Stick that in the safe. And so if you read this, he's like, Hey It may be

25:20 Boring to you. He he uses the example of Schlitzbeer, right? They were fifth in the market share. And They hire Hopkins like we want to sell more beer. And so he's like, Okay, well I'm gonna c he does the same thing he does, he does a lot of research.

25:31 And he goes and he tours the distillery. And he's blown away by like, you know, that we triple distilled water and I don't know how beer made what beer's made. I don't even drink. That much. But like the explains the entire process and Claude's like this is amazing. Why don't you guys talk about this? He goes 'Cause our process isn't different than any other distiller.

25:46 He goes, Yeah, but no one's telling that story. And so he writes these huge Essentially, you know, fifteen hundred words, two thousand words of This is how the beer that you're about to drink is made. And goes from fifth to first.

25:56 Because people buy stories. And so to answer your question on like I think What I should do is sit down. Maybe I'll just

26:03 Clip this and be like okay, this is how I make The podcasts are high consumer information. So I think me and you share love of the writing of Cormac McCarthy. Sure. Oh my God. Yeah.

26:14 Beautiful and Brutal in equal measure. So The road. Led Meridian. I mean there are many other examples. All the pretty horses, the the border trilogy

26:23 Just everything the guy you just read everything. He's just incredible. The road. No country for old men. I saw the movie first of all the book. It's crazy how s like they barely had you change any words. It's like he wrote a Script.

26:35 So He says something that's fascinating. That Subconscious is older than language. They're like, How'd you write blood meridian? He goes, I didn't He's like I sat there and it came all from my subconscious. I just

26:46 Like I eliminate anything that Got in the way of it. Man, you must have a busy therapist. Oh, I couldn't imagine what's in that guy's head to write that book. The Judge. The judges. So dark anyway. So anyways. So I Mm.

26:59 All intuition. All feeling So basically what I do is I sit down with a book. And usually I do this physically.

27:07 And It's like I'm doing arts and crafts over here. I sit down with a physical book because that's how I fell in love with reading. You know, like I don't have memories before I love a reading. And I think one of the best things that ever happened to me is the fact that I don't know why my reading grabbed hold of me since I was like four or five years old.

27:21 So w my mom was dying of breast cancer. what I said about the only thing they read is the Bible that you could take that to an extreme because like she tried for two years she tried to pray her cancer away. We convinced her.

27:33 See an oncologist. The word he used was the horses out of the barn. And Most grueling way to die when you get It spreads your bones like

27:42 If that happens, I'm calling you to put a pillow over my face. Like I'm just not going through that. It's just it was Just a terrible thing to see. But one thing she says, she's like, You've just been like this forever. Like when you were a kid and you'd read the back of cereal boxes. I'd walk in every single room. I did this when I come in here and just you just automatically read everything that's on the walls. So I have no idea where this came from. I didn't choose the passionate reading, it chose me.

28:02 And All of it is intuition. I sit down with physical book'cause that's how I fell in love. With reading. I said don't mom would bring you to the bookstore, right? Yes. Yeah. Because they won't kick you out for reading. Yeah, exactly.

28:12 And the library and then like even in this is I remember the first time it's like This is maybe before I even knew words because I was obsessed with Where's Waldo? So it's like my first memory. So I you're not reading anything, you're just like finding the guy with the stripe. Sure, or Stripe sweater.

28:26 So basically I sit down. Physical book. Pen. Six inch ruler. Post the notes and

28:33 Scissors. And I just read and I don't think and if something jumps out to me I highlighted whatever pops to my mind and normally As our mutual friends like Patrick

28:42 Chris. Rick, they'll all see this. It's just like I'm not actually listening to what you're saying. There's an idea behind it. Right, meaning you're not taking what the author says literally you're looking at the idea behind I'm just looking for the essence. Yeah

28:58 If me and Rick are talking about like a giant deal that he wants to invest in, I'm thinking about how that's similar to how Fred Smith built FedEx, or how Jim Casey built UPS, or how Buffett thought about You know, buying C's candy. So what so what do you do with the post it notes and the scissors and the ruler? So basically like I underlined that sentence and then whatever popped my mind. And I'm like, Oh, this is kinda like James J. Hill when he was building the only

29:20 Profitable, successful American railroad. And like you just write down whatever comes to mind. It's on the post it. On the post it. And that goes on the page. It goes on the page. So then I'm writing down and then like, you know, I might have three sentences, but the post-it note's three by five. So I have to cut. It has to be clean. It has to look good. Like there's a beauty to it. Like I'm irrational, like crazy when it comes to this stuff. This is why I think I picked up on your work right away,'cause I see a fellow nutcase and obsessive.

29:43 Where like I hand edit now. My transcripts. So it was like You should outsource it to AI, you should outsource it to India. No. I have to touch it, I have to feel it, I have to like

29:53 I just love it. I'm not doing it to do it quicker. I like what Jerry Sandfield says. The hard way is the right way. I like the hard way. This also goes back to obviously have some kind of like

30:04 Dark thing driving me, which we can dive into if you want. But So then you go through the entire book, right? And so then I have to take pictures of it.

30:13 into the ReadWise app'cause you do the smarter way. Kindle will just automatically go to read by Well, I still use physical. I'll explain I'll trade. I'll tell you how I use physical. Wanna go do it now or you wanna Yeah, sure. Well Okay, so don't lose your place. I w I wanna I wanna know about the ruler. Oh I guess the ruler well Straight lines. It has to be straight.

30:32 Okay. As we realize. Pretty Moderate to severe O C D. Uh I remember when I was diagnosed by the psychiatrist who was doing Some like preliminary formality.

30:43 of taking me through these assessments before I was going to have this Experimental. brain stimulation. Semi semi experimental. And he had to check the boxes and he w went through these hours and hours of stuff and he's like, You know, if I need to take a seat. If we have to need to take a break, I understand. And he gave me this O C D diagnosis. I'm like, Yeah, what else is new? Like I just keep it. I knew this about it. Yeah, I don't need time.

31:04 So the the way I use physical and I do use physical still quite a bit. Yeah. I will This is another question that maybe you can answer when you pick back up is How a second or third reading differs from the first.

31:17 Because when I read it the first time, I'm doing something very similar to you. I'm underlining things, or if that's just too much work'cause the book is actually a a gem and it has a lot, then I will just like bracket it. On the side of the paragraph. So that I know what the highlight is. Then I will Go through if I read it a second time.

31:36 And I will put T two in a circle next to the things that still stuck out on a second reading. Now sometimes you're just a different person if you read it like five years later in your lived experience. And your position is life. Is different.

31:50 Uh But if I'm doing it in somewhat rapid Succession. I wanna see what sticks on a second or third reading. So you'll see like two T two, T three, et cetera. Sometimes it's just fun to see how I change over time.

32:03 with like the moral letters to Lucillius by Seneca the younger. People can find it in all sorts of compendiums. I put out a a free PDF called The Tow of Seneca. I like to just see where I am at different points in my life, what resonates. And then Typically with any physical book I'm creating, I just did this with a book I finished yesterday called Deep Tech by Pablos Holman. Where I'm creating an index in the front.

32:26 So whenever there's a page that really, really sticks out. I'll write down like one sixty eight. Whatever it might be. Right. Someone I wanna look up, someone like a Claude Hopkins whose name gets dropped and I'm like, That seems important. All right. And so I have this index.

32:40 And then I'll take a photograph of the index just in case I lose the book, which has happened and that's always painful. I also will have I'll make a little box on the bottom right hand corner of some of the front matter pages. And I'll put next steps. Wait, what's the front matter?

32:55 So the front matter would be The copyright page. The title page, the pages that don't really have any content on them. Maybe there's a dedication page. Like Ta Ma, you know, it's like okay, that's a blank page that I can use. Yeah. So in the like the bottom right hand corner, just two lines that create sort of a box. I will write down next step. So for every book Not every book. In some cases if it's just for pleasure and it's fiction, but even then sometimes ideas will pop into mind. I'm like, okay.

33:21 What is at least one kind of next step? Maybe it's looking up someone like Claude Hopkins. Maybe it's an action. Maybe it's a phone call, maybe it's an email, but like Along the lines of David Allen and getting things done. It's like one physical next action. Mm-hmm. And so I almost always have that in nonfiction books. I take photos of all that.

33:40 I used to put it all into Evernote. I still sometimes do that'cause I've been using it forever and I've thousands of them. You're the last Evernote standing? I might be. Yeah, I use scannable to get it into Evernote, but The point is I have a way to then OCR it so I can search it. Alright, so that's that's basically what I have to do now. Which takes an unbelievable amount amount of time, but again.

33:58 Then now so I've already read it one time. Now I have to input it into readress. So you take a picture of it. And it's Laborious.

34:05 And now I've read it for the second or maybe third time'cause then like you take you see on the page. And then it's you have to make sure that it matches up between the page and what's on your screen. And so you're reading it over and over again. So then I get it all into read wise. You wanted to take a sidebar just to explain what ReadWise is?

34:19 Read wise is essentially just a way to keep track of your notes and highlights from everything you read. And now they're expending out because turns out the total adjustment market for people that want to Keep highlights and notes. First of all, how many people are reading books now? That number's dwindling, unfortunately.

34:33 And then of that subset of smaller adrenaline people, how many are read as much as you and I do? And then they wanna it's send you a giant surgical database of everything you've ever read. It's like super valuable. And they charge like ninety nine dollars a year for it. So now they have Basically they were running this for six years. They have a new like web reader app and they said they made more money in six months from that than they did in read wise for six years. So it's like

34:51 Obviously not a lot of people that want to do this what the thing w that we're describing doing. I used to read the physical book. 'Cause I actually let's back up and I wanna tell you like the role that you played in Don't let me forget where I'm at though. I won't So

35:04 I went to like a shitty college. Because I remember like when I was in your senior, but you know, I I went to public high school. And everybody's like, Where are you going to school? And I didn't understand what they meant. I'm like One I can drive to.

35:16 Like the one I can like go to at night'cause I have to work during the day, like I don't know what you're talking about. Like there I didn't know I got kicked out of my house when I was eighteen and I had to live in student housing. Why'd you get kicked out? My mom's side of the family has like severe mental illness and just like some of the worst people you've ever met. And they just had this

35:35 belief. that like you kick your kids out when you're eighteen. I guess out of the nest. It it's not even that. It's like they pick a fake fight. That was a point of contention between my mom. Is

35:48 She had undiagnosed mental illness for sure. Maybe not schizophrenic, definitely bipolar. Her sister was Schizophrenic. And listen, man, as you get older At the time I had a lot of

35:57 Anger. Super a lot of anger'cause they didn't understand. why they're doing what you're doing and then you get older And then you have your own kids. So I went through this crazy thing where like I think I like

36:09 hated them even more'cause when my daughter was born, I'm like I remember seeing her for the first time, I was like Like you think you love a woman? No. Enzofari has a straight line that

36:19 It's impossible for a man to love a woman. The only true love he has is for his kids, and I understand what he meant. I think Ryan Reynolds said it best where it's like, never thought I'd l love anybody Much I love Blake Lively. And then she gave birth to our daughter, and as soon as I looked at the daughter, I knew if we were ever under attack I would use Blake as a human shield to protect that baby. Like it's funny, but it's literally when I heard him say that, I go, Yes.

36:41 That's it. So that makes the memory all the more painful. Then I was like, How the How do you do this to your children? Then you get more experience. And then you're like Yeah but Like imagine you grew up

36:52 Like they did. Like poor white trash. My grandfather raped all his daughters, including my mother. Raped all of his daughters. I didn't know about this till after he died, or else I was would have been one of put him in his grave. Raped. His daughters raped his granddaughters.

37:08 They lived in this like shitty house in Indiana. with one bathroom, there's two bedroom. She had three sisters. The only bathroom is in my grandpa's

37:18 I call'em grandparents. I hate them with all of my being. In their room. And so if you wanted to go in the bedroom at night, he was off. Monster. They would

37:27 urinate in cups and pour it out the window. So again. It doesn't excuse the bad decisions they made and the unhappy marriage my parents had and all this other crap but it's just like All right. Like imagine that.

37:39 Imagine that. You destroyed your kids. That person was supposed to protect them. We I can't even talk about this, but Anyways, we would fight a lot.

37:49 And she'd be alternate depending on w the day, like she'd be either the kindest person in the world or like Like a storm. And so the unfortunate part was when she got diagnosed with cancer. We hadn't spoken six months. So she only survived another, I think

38:03 Two years. So that means the last two and a half years, I miss what, like that's twenty percent, twenty five percent of her life. And somebody's like, What were you guys fighting over? It's like the sad thing is I don't remember I was not one to let Yeah, I was very hard headed.

38:16 And so she Had some weird fight with me, I don't remember what it was. And then she's like, You're not allowed to live here, kick me out. And I didn't have anything. So anyways I went Lived in student housing.

38:25 And that was the first time I uh they randomly assign you like a a roommate. And It was like the son of a rich rancher because our fridge was like full of like all this meat stuff. Which is bad because it was the summer where Florida got hit by like four hurricanes and all the meat went rotting. Oh yeah, it was disgusting. But I didn't know that there were people legitimately. This makes me sound like a absolute moron.

38:46 But I didn't know that there were people that They only went to college. 'Cause like my roommate didn't have a job. He just like drank and like went to I'm like, What else do you do? Yeah. What? This is crazy. So I don't know where I was going with that.

38:58 You were saying you were taking a pause on read wise and multiple reads and you're like, I gotta tell you how I found you. Oh, okay. So I again I'm a crappy school. It's a state school. In Orlando. U C F Almost said UFC, like where it's MMS. Mm.

39:13 That would have been probably more useful now. So U C F and This is when Facebook was coming out, but Facebook was only at the fancy schools. Yeah, right. It was very much at the fancy schools. We didn't have Facebook. You know, we had we had MySpace. And so remember like you'd go and there'd be like music playing on somebody's profile? Well people would list like their favorite movies and favorite books. And I think I was like looking at a girls

39:34 Probably profile. Yeah. And under favorite books it said four hour work week. I'm like That's a great title. What is that? And I immediately order it on Amazon and then I started reading it. Obviously then That book you know.

39:47 Inspired I don't know. twenty five million people, maybe even more, but now. And then I start consuming all your stuff. So like I'd buy all your books. I bought your T V show. Oh, it's all. Like sometimes I'll forget'cause you go on I like whatever it's not called iTunes anymore. And like I don't buy anything'cause everything streams I'm like

40:02 I know. From the Natural History Museum back in the day. So I was obsessed with podcasts. I discovered in 2010, and before I started mine in 2016, I listened to thousands of them. And you had one that changed my life. Which was when you did Jocko. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

40:17 And that was two thousand fifteen, if I remember correctly. And you told him to start a podcast. And I think Rogan told him to do it as well. And he's like, Well if I got these two guys Obviously sh he's smart. Yeah.

40:29 And I started listening to his podcast and he he changed format, but in the beginning it was just him doing He would read a first person account, so an autobiography of somebody in combat. And I could not believe what I was hearing. And so what I would do is I'd listen maybe like a hundred of his episodes and maybe buy a dozen of the books. So you learn even on the episode you don't read the book, you learn so much and you're inspired.

40:50 And in the books. He kept Introduced me all kinds of crazy stories. And I was like, Hey A couple months later, and then obviously like I started reading biographies'cause your friend Kevin Rose did this excellent interview with Elon Musk, we can talk about from two thousand twelve.

41:03 And I was like What if I do like Jocko's format? But I'm interested in like four things. I'm interested in reading. History, podcasts, and entrepreneurship. And so if you look at it, it's like

41:13 It just sits in between those four. And I started doing that. And essentially I was just imitating Jocko. And no one gave a shit for five and a half years. Yeah. Wow. What a wild story. So I wanna

41:24 Dive into that the interview with Jako I I owe special thanks to I think it was Peter Tia who made the introduction. He said, Just trust me on this. Yeah. And then didn't you just show up at your house or something? Uh yeah, we we hung out in San Francisco. I remember exactly which coffee shop we went to. And I made the mistake, I wasn't even thinking properly. I had a camo shirt on and I was like I can't believe I wore a fucking camo shirt.

41:49 To meet someone as Legitimate. As Jocco Willink. And I was just like, oh face bomb. But We ended up connecting. That was his first ever public interview, which is wild.

42:01 And one of the best ones ever done. Oh I mean he really Brought the heat as my every morning. He's like get up. I swear to God, I'm not joking. He's been my alarm for like half a decade. Yeah. He yells at me. Extreme ownership still. Highly, highly, highly recommend to everyone.

42:18 And if you wanna hear me and Jako go sort of toe to toe, not really toe to toe work, sort of shoulder to shoulder. With a book, we did Musashi, I think episode one hundred. Episode one hundred, which was like four and a half, five hours long. Yes. Going through this historical novel about the Most famous swordsman in Japanese history. I read that because of the episode. Oh, so good. I I think I read the audiobook first, and it's like sixty hours long or something. It's really long. And uh in keeping in mind this was originally published in Japanese in a country of whatever the population is, like 120, 150 million. I think it sold like eighty to a hundred million copies. I mean something. just completely insane as I might be getting that off, but the the numbers are just astonishing as a ratio of the total population.

42:58 Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show. Many of you know how deeply I love Japan and its culture of unwavering dedication to craft, refinement, commitment to continuous improvement. Well why do I bring this all up? Well, the same focus On improving one thing. Over the span of years is found in today's sponsor, AG One.

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44:06 Slash Tim. That's drink A G one. dot com slash Tim.

44:14 So Five and a half years. Yeah. How do you explain no one giving a shit for five and a half years? In other words, was there something that happened, a decision you made, something that changed? Around the five and a half year mark? Was it a change in technology? Was it the ecosystem? What happened? Yeah. Literally I was doing nothing different, changing business model. So

44:35 You remember podcasting back in there'cause you're like one of the OGs. And like you had this massive audience, your blog was crazy, like You're huge, and still are. And I was none of those things. I was a weird introvert. I didn't have any social media.

44:49 I didn't know anything about like the internet. I don't know how to describe like I just would like to read. And record I'll podcast in my kitchen on a hundred dollar microphone. And

44:59 I remember calling around and trying to figure out like what's the business model here. And everybody's like, Oh, it's ads. I'm like, Oh, that's great. And so at the time, there's like these ad networks where essentially they just sell ads for you. And they're like, We'd love to work with you. You just have to have fifty thousand downloads per show. And I go What?

45:15 I will never Fifty thousand? Like That w I just it seemed like such a big number. Like it's just like that will never ever happen. In the universe of podcasts that's still a big number. Yes, but now like just millions. Like here, how many people listen to Tim Ferriss show and found like there's millions, like I millions and millions of people, you know, like over the course of a year or whatever.

45:34 So I was like, oh my God. Like that's never gonna happen. And so Then you'd say, Okay, well what can you do? And like back then it'd be like affiliate. So like Aud remember Audible scaled massively. People don't realise how big businesses can get on the back of podcasts and how many have'cause it

45:49 Audible was It was on every s Dan Carly had One ad, and it was an audible. Yes. They were very smart about that. Yes. Yeah, they've been able to change a lot of their economics.

45:59 Yeah. for Audible and Amazon since capturing more market share, but they did an excellent job of Marketing and advertising. They were on every single podcast. And so I did that. And then there was this uh company called Blinkist, which was kinda like a summary ten minute summary app for like

46:16 Business books, nonfiction books. And that blew my mind because You only got paid on sales. And they would show you like not the people, but like where the country was. And I remember the first time somebody in Japan But

46:29 I'm like, I'm sitting in Miami. In my kitchen. Great acoustics, by the way, you idiot. On a hundred dollar mic with no pop filter, no nothing. Like there was nothing out there. There's no way like I didn't think a podcast now with the script and All the AI tools, it's just it's like magic compared to what we had to do back there. Yeah.

46:45 And I was like What? Somebody in Japan listened to this thing? This was crazy. So the one idea I had I actually got the business model from a socialist

46:53 Podcast. Might have been the begin beginning of the troubles. So there was this For a long time, when I opened a browser, my homepage would there be this thing called Graph Treon. Graftreon is

47:08 They use the Patreon API. And you see People building membership communities. And what was interesting about them is like, you know, people would sell comic books, they would sell podcasts, they would sell Newsletters, videos, and the most popular category was podcasts. I'm like, that's weird.

47:23 And so at the time there's a podcast called Chapo Trap House. Was the number one. And they had twenty five thousand people think on Patreon. Yes. Mm-hmm. And the only way you see this is because GraphChon would aggregate the data for you and present it to you. And so

47:37 At the time I think they had twenty thousand Pay subscribers at at least five dollars a month. And their business model is simple. Every other podcast you have to pay for. So you can listen to half them for free if you want more. Just pay five bucks a month and you can listen to it in a

47:50 Podcast player like anything else. You just have to go through the paywall. And every month I'm watching and the number gets higher and higher and higher. Now if you pull up Grafton I think the number one is

48:00 Shangillis, I think he's got like a hundred twenty thousand paid subscribers. So I was like, Oh, there's like a business here. We're like, what if I had a subscription podcast? So it's one thing to Pay five bucks a month for a comedy podcast. But my podcasts are about business. If there's ideas on this podcast

48:15 That will Make People more money. Which is essentially what business education comes down to. Like you want to be more successful at you do Some kind of like

48:23 Hopefully you see like a better economic outcome for yourself and your family. I was like What if I could just sell. Subscriptions. I'm not selling enough Audible subscriptions and Blinkers not gonna happen.

48:34 And my idea was like I think I was completely in love with podcasting. I still am. It's like the only thing I think about. I work on it seven days a week. It's completely taken over my life. And my idea was like, I don't even have to be wealthy. I just have to do this for a living. It has to come out of me. It's like I have no control over this.

48:49 And I was like, maybe I can make like dentist money. So my idea was like, I bet you I can sell Three thousand paid subscriptions. At a hundred dollars a pop, make three hundred grand a year. And then I also have

49:00 A lot of self confidence, like well if I could sell three thousand, I can sell twenty thousand and then like maybe I can sell as many as Chapo can and then making two million like This is the idea I had. And so my idea was like the genius idea I had was like, Hey, your most valuable asset you have, which is like You know your podcasts. They're easy to share and everything else. Like, let's put a big wall in front of that. Yeah. Yeah. And so I put a giant paywall in front of it.

49:21 And obviously it slows growth because How are you gonna share the episode? The one benefit I had Which really kept me going. And I don't think I would have quit anyways. I really don't think I had any other option. Was that

49:32 You know, we don't know who's gonna listen to this one. We just see numbers on a screen. But with a subscription. You see the email address. And the emails were like the top Founders and top VCs.

49:42 And I had A very small audience. And one of them was our mutual friend Patrick O'Shaughnessy. And I was a huge fan of Patrick.

49:52 And I saw I'm not gonna repeat his email address here, but I know what the I was like, I saw that come across and there were so few. Like I saw every single one. Yeah, sure. You're kidding me. Ten a day, I don't know, five a day or something like that. Paid. And I'm like oh my

50:05 God. Patrick Brawl. He didn't know who I was. You know, I was a big fan of his didn't know anything. I had no followers. I think he had like seven thousand followers across like every one of my accounts. And I was like trying really hard back then. And he goes I never find

50:19 Good podcast to listen to. I think David Sender's founders podcast is excellent. You should listen to it. And he linked to that one on S Lauder. And I Could not believe it.

50:29 'Cause I was like, Why do I have these mentions on Twitter? What is a mention? Like I don't get mentions. Like what is this new thing? I log into my email. 'Cause I would back then you would get an email every time you get a new s pay subscription. And off of one tweet. Of an endorsement by people try this is why

50:44 Like you and Andrew are kinda like the male Oprah? And I mean that in the most like You know how much shit I bought because you told me that it's good? Why? Because the trust. People chase numbers. It's like that you're not chasing numbers. You're chasing trust and relationships.

50:57 I love what Warren Buffett said. A brand is a promise. The fact that you guys have such high standards, I've never bought anything like How was Tim thinking? And so that's what makes you so valuable. So Patrick extended that trust to me.

51:09 Where I log into my email and you couldn't stop scrolling. Yeah, that's scrolling. And so I screenshotted that because you're very smart, too. Invest like the best. Yeah, you you did an excellent episode with him for when you hit your ten year anniversary. Oh yeah, ten years. And then I was a huge NBA fan and one of the person that found me that's been really, really helpful when I had like fifteen hundred listeners getting Sam Hinkey, former general manager of the seventy sixers. Very, very intelligent, like intense and kind of reclusive guy now. It's really hard to get to.

51:37 And We had talked a bunch and he's just like I really think you have something here. I think you're like What you're doing is important. And I've tried to help you as much as I can. And I knew him and Patrick were friends and I screenshotted Patrick's tweet, it's like look what your friend Patrick did. Sam didn't say anything, he just put it and again

51:51 Patrick trust Sam. And Sam's telling Patrick. This guy's worth your time. He put us in a group chat, he goes, You two need to know each other. And I was like, Patrick I'm a huge fan, love to talk to you and Patrick doesn't have a calendar.

52:01 He's like, What about right now? Mm-hmm. And I was like, Well, let me look at my calendar. Nothing. Yeah, yeah. Nothing. Literally nothing. First time we talked was like an hour and a half. And we get to the end he goes.

52:10 I thought I was in the podcast. And then Uh then we become friends and then I joined his network and then he just pour gasoline on a on a promising spark. Was he the one who convinced you to remove the wall?

52:22 No, so A friend of mine Again. This is the sad part about Getting more following?

52:29 Is So many my Close friends now came from like DMs. And now you can't do that. You can't even look at mentions. Yeah, the volume doesn't work. Yeah, it's like

52:38 Such a magical thing and now because Yeah, well once verified can be purchased it It destroyed the utility of meeting those people on. It's like what Charlie Munger said, like if you have a bunch of raisins and just a few turds, you still got turds. And you could have ninety nine percent of the people who are nice to you and then these psychos and you're like, I can't read my mentions anymore, can't check my DMs, like it's like sad. But one of the I Met a couple friends through them. And

53:01 Again, I was like Grinding out. hundred dollar year subscriptions just like going to the factory every day trying to like, you know, sell a few more. And one of my friends Told me like what

53:12 One of his friends company just paid to advertise on like one of the biggest business podcasts. And the number was like What? What did you say?

53:22 And then Sam and other people like Patrick. You know, they're just like, This is kinda weird thing that you're doing, like why don't you just sell ads like everybody else, you know. And I was like, look at China. They they're ninety percent Subscription to your podcast like Yeah, but you're American you

53:36 idiot. And so I came up with all these like crazy because I'm I can be very convincing. In the opposite direction. Like it doesn't have to be a good idea. I can talk myself into really bad I can talk myself into good ideas, but I can talk myself into bad ideas too. And so eventually I wish I called Patrick one day. And I was just like, Man I am like fighting with like one hand behind my back.

53:57 This is really, really difficult. I think I'm gonna make an ad based version of Founders and he means like Yeah. No shit. I've been telling you to do this forever. And then I was like, and I'd like it to be on your network.

54:08 And he's like, Ooh. That's interesting. And again, he's just a good dude. He's like, Yeah, but I own all Podcast on my network.

54:15 He's like, Well, you sell me equity. And I don't know why I said this. I was like no. Mm-hmm. It was like crazy, but I was and I'd had all these like acquisition investment offers up until that point.

54:25 Obviously reading the audience likes to do deals. Yeah. So they like trying to allocate capital. Yeah. And I was like, no, no, it's like it wasn't a business thing to me. It's like a special thing. It's like part of my soul. You know? Michael Dell has this great answer when he was like fighting with Carl Icon when, you know And they're like, Why don't you just like start another company?

54:42 He's like I like this company, first of all. It has my name on it and he goes, I'm gonna care about this company after I'm dead. So that's how I feel. Like it's a rational love that I have for this. And so um I was like uh I don't want to sell equity, but he's like, What do you want? I was like, I want you to help amplify my audience and connect me with first rate advertisers. Then we can just share ad revenue.

55:00 And one call, he's like done. And That like Completely change everything. That was Four years ago.

55:07 Well. Thank God for Patrick, huh? Oh for sure. Ha. I talk to him almost every day. We're like brothers. I call him to the great guy. He's a very very good guy.

55:16 Let's just Actually I'm gonna zoom. Into your sort of Expertise subject matter for a second. And then I wanna talk more about podcasting, but just so it doesn't become too much inside baseball. I do wanna come back and talk about podcasting.

55:30 But You had mentioned you have mentioned a number of different names kind of at the top of your list, people to learn from. Where does Edwin Land fit into that. Oh and who is Edwin Land? So Edwin Land is the patron saint of founders. So

55:45 I want a picture of him in my house. Like, you know, the last supper or just be like Edwin Land in the middle, like Jesus. So Again, I'm very interested in who influences the influencers. And like where do these ideas actually come from? And

55:58 You know, Steve Jobs. If you have a Mount Rushmore of greatest entrepreneurs, like his face has gotta be on it. Undoubtedly. Product.

56:06 in history. I think he did it for the right reasons. I think he's a very fascinating person. Obviously incredibly flawed as like a human, which he even said, you know? But what's fascinating is If you go back and and which I do is like when I read a biography somebody I will make a list going back to, you know, your outline of

56:23 What I'll do in the front of the books. Which you called what front matter. Front matter. I didn't even know that term till now. Thank you. I will write down all the other founders or all the other people they'll talk about. Mm-hmm. And so like I just did it with James Dyson, he's like obsessed with Buck Mr. Fuller and Isn Bard Kingdom Runel and Jeremy Fry. and Alex Isiganis and all these people. He just repeats them over and over again. And you just realize oh he studied these guys. And then took their ideas and said, Those ideas are good.

56:46 I'll use them. And then make sixty billion dollars or whatever his company's worth. Everyone should read about Buckminster Fuller. I haven't read the book yet. Yeah. His ideas but not the book that James read when he was in college.

56:58 It's fascinating to me. How it's almost all like in the if you find it early. I had lunch with Sam Zo. How did he make his money, for people who don't know. People consider him an investor. He calls himself an entrepreneur. He called himself an entrepreneur.

57:09 So what he's most well known for is in two thousand seven he sold the I think the biggest real estate company history for like thirty eight billion. Blackstone. And he kinda like tipped at the very top of the market.

57:20 But He just likes to essentially buy businesses. Try to make them grow. He would sell some. So like that's why people consider him an investor, but he considered himself a An entrepreneur.

57:29 By the time I met him, he had sixty one years of experience as As an entrepreneur. And My favorite entrepreneurs are I love talking to these people that have forty, fifty. I'm not interested in the starter founder at all. Like this twenty five year old kid that thinks he's smart, he doesn't have enough experience yet. Life is going to uh teach you know

57:47 People who've ridden like many multiple macroeconomic cycles. who have had to contend with different challenges at different points in their lives, not just when they have no responsibilities and no dependents. Yeah. Et cetera, et cetera, etc. He he says something in his autobiography that you were speaking to earlier. He's like, Yeah, earlier in my life, my career Fought my marriages and my career one.

58:07 And that's why I've been married three times. The very recurring theme is that You look at life as Everything that's not work is kind of an unpleasant distraction and you wonder why your relationship's broken. 'Cause you're not spending any time there. Like of course that's the outcome.

58:18 And they all make this mistake over and over again. So what's fascinating about this is We'll go back to Edwin Lann in a minute. Sam Zo. In his

58:26 Biography. He's like, dude, I'm in college. This guy was making millions of dollars a year when he was in law school. That's how good of an entrepreneur he was from day one. Was that real estate? He was Developing I think student housing at the time.

58:37 I think the student housing, but he was also like doing deals. Like he's just A very gifted. Deal maker. And you see this with Rick, understanding like You'll bring something to Rick. And you're like, Oh, here's like ten things that are important. Do you want to explain who Rick is briefly?

58:50 So His name's Rick Curson. It's gonna one of my closest friends. You've known him for What?

58:55 Yeah, I don't know. Fifteen, twenty years. A long time. Fifteen, twenty years. He's one of the most generous, thought, and also simultaneously super intense people I know. He's a master of finance. came out of this just sort of amazing training environment. We can just call that what it is for now on in simplicity. And

59:14 Is one also of the best connected humans I've ever met. He identifies no just like one thing. He learned that from Sam and then Sam learned that from this guy named J Prisker. Mm-hmm. So Chicago Royalty. Yes, a hundred percent.

59:28 I actually just backed It's not a Kickstarter, but there's no biographies of J Prisker. And so there's a guy named Rockwood Notes. That since he put his hat out, he's like, Hey, I wanna do this, but I need to make at least, I think, forty thousand a year.

59:39 And he's selling like eight hundred dollar or a thousand dollar year subscriptions. I was like, Yeah, I'll obviously sign up for this. Like I want a J Pritzer biography. So Sam Zell in his autobiography is like Yeah, I read this book. By William Zackendorf. And it changed my life because there's one idea in this book. It's what Charlie Munker said. There's ideas worth

59:55 Billions in a thirty dollar history book. And There is this thing called Hawaiian technique. William Zeckendorf was like this real estate developer in New York. And he came from nothing.

1:00:03 And then made a lot of money, then lost it all, and then made a lot of money, then lost it all again, and dies with no money. So you want to avoid that too. But he had this thing called the Hawaiian technique, which was hey, if you just parcel out A building. And you sell the different parts to whoever values it more. You'll make more money. So like the lease

1:00:20 is valued higher f by these guys. And the land is valued higher, and maybe the commercial real estate there or whatever, like he just would break it apart like Legos and sell it independently and make a little money. What Sam realized he started using that real estate and he goes, Oh, this works in business too. So he'd buy a business and like Maybe you want the IP, maybe you want the talent, maybe you want the actual physical assets, and he'd do this over and over again.

1:00:40 So I remember Telling Sam to his face and Sam Had no filter and he was Exactly who you thought he was if you watch any videos. He's just like this. And I go, Yeah, I bought that book that you recommended. He goes, Did you read it? I go, No, he goes, Read it

1:00:54 Like he's got the gravelly voice, like rate it. I was like, Oh shit, okay. And I read it as soon as I I went home and started reading it. Like Sam Zell tells you to read a book, just read a book. But the reason I bring this up is because You'll see this over and over again. They'll find somebody early.

1:01:06 So You can go back. And read this Playboy. Interview. Just for the I hope when you it's just for the interview. It's not for anything else. Of Steve Jobs.

1:01:16 When he's Twenty five, twenty six. And He's talking about the fact that We have the wrong

1:01:24 Role models and heroes as a society. We wanna be you know, now you'd say you wanna be YouTuber or something. We wanna be athletes, we wanna be all these other things. We should want to be Edwin Land. And at the time, Edwin Land was the founder of Polaroid.

1:01:36 Edwin Land's in his seventies. Jobs meets him, spends time with him a bunch of times, okay. Edmund Lane at that time had The third most patents. Of any American.

1:01:46 In history? I think it was Thomas Edison the second guy and then Edwin Lann? Or maybe it's you know The first guy and then Thomas Edison, but Edmund Land was up there. And

1:01:55 What you would realize is When Jobs goes on stage and says, Hey, I wanted to build Apple. I wanted to build a company at the intersection of liberal arts and technology and he has that He literally puts the the you know, the the street sign up on there. That is literally

1:02:10 A direct quote from Edwin Lan. Edwin Land wanted to build a company at the intersection of liberal arts And technology. He wanted to make completely vertically integrated consumer products that were magical. that had a magical experience. And in Edwin Land's case, he invented

1:02:24 the industry that he then comes to dominate. There was no such thing as instant photography. So when we're like how great is the iPhone compared to one that came before it? The difference was is vast. But not the same thing as me if you me and you were hanging out before Edwin Lan was on this earth.

1:02:38 We take a picture at a party, like how'd it come out? We'll find out two weeks from now when we get back in Kodak. As opposed to like wait a minute and We're we're gonna see it right here in the Polaroid. And then dude, the amount of ideas that jobs took from him. Go look at the freaking tables.

1:02:56 That jobs uses when he gives presentations. The actual table It's the same table that Edwin Land gave when he gave presentations. So if somebody wants to study Edwin Land, where do they start? I read this biography of Edwin Land. I thought it was incredible. called insisting on the impossible. It's the most comprehensive biography of him.

1:03:13 People read it, they're like this book sucks. I think it's riveting. There is a book, I think it's called Lands Polaroid. That's the one I'd read'cause it's only two hundred and fifty pages. And it's written by a guy that worked

1:03:25 For And with Edwin Lamb for like twenty years. And I love those kind of things'cause you see'em over a decade. But my point being is like jobs just talking about this guy when he's twenty five. Jobs knows he's dying when he's working with Isaac and on the biography. He knows he's dying.

1:03:37 And he's still talking about Edwin Land appears in I just buy a free of jobs like Six times. Why is he still talking about this guy? How could you not be interested in

1:03:47 Understanding why. What is it about this guy that he that he admired and liked? Yeah, and he has a saying that he has a personal model. That I love and that I try to do. And Edwin Lands, there's two of'em. Henry Land says my personal motto is very personal. It may not apply to anybody else or anybody else or any other company, but is don't do anything that someone else can do.

1:04:06 The importance of differentiation, I'm shocked at how few people understand how important it is. Dyson. Dicen this whole thing is like it has to be different, even if it's worse. It should be different. That's the man's difference. He's got a very fascinating

1:04:18 Business philosophy. The Dyson's mind's incredible. And then the other thing is He knows'cause he dropped out of Harvard twice. Because there's something they'll teach you at Harvard Business School. That anything worth doing is worth doing to excess.

1:04:29 So how do you think about Different archetypes. Perhaps that's the best word to use. Within the

1:04:38 pantheon of successful entrepreneurs. The reason I ask that Is that I imagine you get questions uh along the lines of and I get Questions like this also. When you look across all of the biographies, what are some of the common patterns? Give me the top five, top six.

1:04:56 And then people want to grab that recipe. But it could be like just to use a sports analogy, it's like all right, you're taking the stretching routine from LeBron James, the weight training routine from Arnold Schwarzenegger. And this, this, and this, you're grabbing habits for mutants. that are in entirely different spheres or have different bodies entirely.

1:05:16 Then trying to cobble it together, it may not work. Right. That's point number one. Probably won't work. Number two is that within the world of business advice Whether it's autobiographies, biographies, interviews. There's a lot that conflicts, right? So you have one person who says

1:05:33 You know, anything that's worth doing is worth overdoing. And then there's like you can tell who the novice is because they do too much. Yes. Right. And I'm wondering how you think of entrepreneurship for yourself.

1:05:46 in terms of modeling different people or taking advice because you have Two people. Just to use a metric that's easy for everybody to wrap their head around like two billionaires. And they give you diametrically opposed advice. How do you personally?

1:06:01 Pick. There's no formula. One of the things I'm like So thrilled with is the fact that like I become friends with Daniel Eck, the founder of Spotify. And this is something we're actually trying to work on together. Because he brings us up. He's like we need

1:06:13 Alternative founder archetypes. And I back up. First of all, like Daniel is an alien. There is a Specific reason. That

1:06:21 I wanted him to be the very first guest on the new show. Is I maybe was like build relations with other people. Daniel's very special in the sense that like He's only a few years older than me.

1:06:32 But he's so much more wiser than I am. I don't know how I I can put this in words and make sense, but like He founded and is still running a hundred and twenty billion dollar company. He's been running for nineteen years.

1:06:43 But he's to me he's still so underrated. And The thing about Daniel is Now is he wicked smart. But he's given me some of the best advice and he does it in a very like reserved and very precise way. He's got very clear thinking.

1:06:58 And I just cannot get over like how generous he is with his time and his advice to me. And He told me one of the things that was really important. I said like an offhand comment, but he's like You're really easy to understand, so therefore you're easy to help.

1:07:11 And he's just like I know what is important to you. And so therefore, like you're easy to help. And like you're easy to interface with. And so his point is like every young founder thinks they have to be an Elon or Steve Jobs. And he's like,

1:07:23 What I'm not. Like And Elon or Steve Jobs. And the massive success, not only what he's done for Spotify, one of the best apps ever created. I think they have the most

1:07:31 I think there's only one other company in the world that has more paid subscribers than they do, and that's Netflix. You know? But think about the way you feel when you get done using Spotify. And this is why I like all the top people there too. And they've also been working together for excessively long time. Gustaf, Alex, Daniel, all of them.

1:07:46 Is They want you when you're done using Spotify to feel good. If me and you spend an hour listening to our favorite music on Spotify, you feel great. You spent an hour listening to Tim Ferris' podcast, you

1:07:55 Inspire, you feel great. An audio book now, you feel great. I spent an hour on TikTok. Oh. Reels? I feel like

1:08:02 Yeah. Like Twitter? No. I can't.

1:08:08 But they're trying to put something if you want to send yourself backwards. So I like what they're doing. Is there any other advice that has Stuck. From Daniel.

1:08:18 See you. And then I will lose it. I will yeah, I won't lose track of that. So the archetype is I think is really important. I think you'll really vibe with what his opinion on or his perspective on this is. Yeah. Daniel will tell you advice in like a very he's like a wise old man. I don't know how to describe it. So One thing is

1:08:34 is implied and never explicitly stated. Is He just doesn't feel he has any like There's no ceiling on what he can achieve. Or what he can learn, the effect he can have on the world.

1:08:43 And when you spend time with them, that is transferred to you. And it's like one of the most important things. And I don't even know if I told him this. I have like tears in my eyes thinking about it. I remember like Hanging with them Stockholm.

1:08:54 And you know He's done phenomenal stuff with Spotify, one of the best apps ever created. And

1:09:01 He's like wildly successful. As an investor too. And so I remember asking him, This is the funniest Thing over here. And

1:09:08 I go. Were you always interested in investing? 'Cause I knew his story, like we've talked a lot about this. And he goes. No, I didn't even know anything about it. I started learning. I go when did you start learning? He's like, Two thousand eighteen.

1:09:19 I go, How'd you start learning? He goes Patrick's Pudge. And so he would just listen to people who's like I like that idea, I'll take that idea. Oh, I don't like that idea, I don't like that at all, I I'll avoid that. And the way Patrick describes it is like out of anybody you know. Daniel.

1:09:33 Has the ability. To apply what he's learning faster than anybody else and at a grander scale. He's also a very, very, very good systems thinker, so he's not at a risk of Cobbling together.

1:09:45 This sort of camel that is a horse designed by committee. Yeah. That has a bunch of it herent problems and conflicts within it, right? Like he'll he'll be able to figure out how to put pieces together.

1:09:58 From first principles. that function well as a whole. Let me tell one other piece of advice that he gave me. And he tells it in a story form. This is why he's like the wise old man. And essentially was Remember why people love you.

1:10:11 You sit in a room. And you read all the time? And then you make this thing on the other side that educates and inspires us and gives us energy. And as soon as you stop doing that.

1:10:21 And you start saying yes to all these distractions, and I don't even know if like I think I we might have talked about this in the episode we did. It comes out in a few weeks. But he tells it a story. And he tells a story from another person. So he's not telling you, David, go do this.

1:10:35 He's like Let me tell you about this little genius. Or not little genius. This guy's really impressive. Look at what he's accomplished and everything else. And then the story will hit you like hours later. And he's like, Oh yeah, that you know, we've invited him to the conference over time. I've invited him to visit and I keep hearing no and I'm like

1:10:49 Oh. He's like telling me you're saying yes to me things. the magic that you have is because you say no. And once you start saying yes and you're at every conference, you're traveling around, you're doing all this sort of stuff. The magic disappears. I'm curious what you think are some of the different archetypes, because I think of the hundred plus startups that I've invested in since two thousand eight.

1:11:09 And there's a lot of variability. You've got the engineer let's call it the engineer founder. Right, somebody like Toby of Shopify. Or uh Luis Van of Duolingo.

1:11:21 then you've got the sort of like genius Operator. negotiator. Warrior like a Travis Kallanek. Right.

1:11:31 Very different personalities, very different superpowers. And you just go down the list and you see some people come from like a finance numbers kind of like spreadsheet god perspective, and like they just have an analytic advantage, right? Like it's very comparable to investing in some ways, looking at the investing world. They have this analytical advantage, let's just call it. And I was trying to pick out What?

1:11:56 If anything might be commonalities. 'Cause you also have like the crazy artist who then figures out how to harness some of their Superpower. And

1:12:07 It strikes me that there are at least two that immediately jump to mind. One is longer term time horizon. Those are the people I'm obsessed with. Like the Jeff Bezos type of mindset where it's like if you have the exact same toolkit, the exact same competency out of the box genetically, you're built exactly the same as someone else.

1:12:27 But you are able to think. and plan longer term. It's just it can be a huge advantage. Second is something that you mentioned where Daniel was saying to you like This is the magic. So just remember this is the magic. When

1:12:44 Other opportunities, other shiny objects show up. Because they will. Even in very early stages. And if you deviate It's incredibly easy to

1:12:55 Sort of self immolate. If you lose track of that. I mean, you see that a lot when CEOs get replaced sometimes. Founder CEOs. Sometimes they need to be replaced, but

1:13:05 What else would you add to that or how would you expand on Any of it. Just look at the founders of some of like the biggest companies in the world now. They would go to war against each other. So think about like Oracle and Microsoft.

1:13:15 You can't think of two different founder archetypes than Bill Gates. And Larry Elson. Larry Elson's like I'm a sprinter.

1:13:23 I have intense Very intense periods of work. Weeks at a time, months at a time, and then I need to go on my boat with a bunch of Italian models. Right, this is what I how I have to live my life. Bill Gates is

1:13:34 You know, we'd be walking into this room right here and his feet would be underneath his desk. He's sleeping for three hours, he's getting back up and he's going back on the he's a grinder. And Then you have I've been trying to name some of these and I I I haven't done this yet, and but the problem is I never write anything. This is all like improv, you know? One of them is like the anti business billionaire.

1:13:51 And so in that category is like these people are so obsessed. About one thing and that's the quality of the product that they're making. They make non financial decisions. Like Steve Jobs making sure that the inside of the Mac looks beautiful, even though you can't open it up and it costs more money. He doesn't care. He wants the best product.

1:14:09 James Dyson's like this. He's an anti business billionaire. Evon Chenard. Food of Patagonia. Anti business building are these guys

1:14:16 You're obsessed with two things. Quality of the product that they're making. And retaining control of their company over long term. And the funny part about that the reason I call them anti business millionaire is because if you make the world's best product Right.

1:14:26 And you retain control over Your company. You wind up with the money anyways. Yeah. I can think of uh a few people, I mean, within my portfolio who retained a lot of their equity at least. And that's it. Which is kind of preserving the magic, right? In terms of the best product. Well look at everybody's like, look at what having Larry Elson right now. It's like yeah, I could be wrong, but I think Oracle raised thirty two million

1:14:47 No more after that. And then the guy they would refuse even when they were almost like going out of business in nineteen ninety. He still wouldn't sell they're like sell your equity like no it's like it might be worth nothing. He just wouldn't sell it and then buying back stock. So he almost I think forty I think he went down to twenty four percent, now he's back to like forty one percent of Oracle. The company's fifty years old.

1:15:03 Like forty five years old. I think he was like thirty something when he founded the company. He's just a an anomaly. And then you have people like Elon. Where it's just like I'm gonna run. I wouldn't even think that's possible. How the hell do you run seven companies?

1:15:15 At the same time. Can barely manage three employees. I don't know. Yeah, exactly. So like answer that is the point. I do think Daniel hit on something that no one else has put in front of me. It's like The people are gonna dominate. Obviously Elon's the the most famous entrepreneur in the world. But even like

1:15:31 Bezos is very different. And then you have these people that Some of the people just like to make money. That is their scoreboard. This is another thing I learned from Michael Dell.

1:15:40 There's two things. One thing you just said. Protecting the magic. The advice that Dell gave me when I had dinner with him. And he does this in story form too,'cause that guy's been running his business for forty one years.

1:15:51 Forty one years. It's insane. And his whole thing is just like You're not gonna be taken out by competition, you're gonna sabotage yourself. Entrepreneurs sabotage themselves. And the amount of people that were doing the same thing I was doing and they were ahead of me. This is Dell talking.

1:16:03 They were ahead of me. But then they got the five hundred million year revenue and they're like I have a house on Lake Austin now. They're in the same city. They're doing the same thing in same in the same city. And they're smoking'em, they're ahead of'em by like a few hundred million, right? And you're like, Oh, I can chill now.

1:16:17 No, you can't,'cause you got Michael Dell. right across the the river and he's not gonna chill. That guy has no chill. I heard he's got this wonderful house in Hawaii. His son was telling me about this.

1:16:26 And I was like We were in Austin in July. You know. Sick. What are you doing here?

1:16:32 And Michael's answer's simple. He goes I love my business. And my business is here. He wasn't being mean to me, he was like, That's a stupid question, David, like I'm working. I love what I do. This is what I'm doing. So One thing from his autobiography though is that

1:16:44 I used to say you ha it only works if you build a business that's authentic to you. And this is why I asked you about your inner monologue. Earlier. Because I really feel the reason people do their best work usually later in life in business.

1:16:56 Is Obviously more experience, network. Finance is everything else, but I think they because they know themselves better. I think me and you If we would have met ten years ago, we'd be different people and we also wouldn't know each other, like know ourselves as much as we do now.

1:17:08 Where like I think I've built a business and you have too. Based on what I know about you. Completely authentic. to you. And that's the only way it's gonna work over long term. And

1:17:17 I used to say authentic and then in Michael does autobiography. Which he Narrates, by the way. The audible is excellent. I listened to it three times before I read it to do the episode on it. And

1:17:26 There is a guy he Name. I think Lee Walker, who Michael brought him when Michael was twenty one, he was in his forties. And it was like an older, wiser man. And he had to quit after four years. He's like basically running the company with Michael. And

1:17:39 He's like We're taking on IBM with a thousand dollars of working capital. Some shitty office in like the industrial part in like Austin, right? IBM's the biggest company in the world. It's the first I didn't know this. It was the first company to hit a hundred billion dollar market cap. And

1:17:53 Like my back hurts, I'm losing hair. I can't sleep. I got digestive issues. Like Lee's dead after four years. And he goes. And Michael's excited. It's invigorated him and that he gave me the line. He goes, Because he built a business that was natural to him. I'm dying.

1:18:08 And he's thriving because it's natural to him and it's not natural to me. And I think that's the key, man. People are like, Oh, I'm gonna imitate X, Y, and Z. It's like no no You should be copying the how, not the what. You don't copy what they did, you copy how they did, and then you just take the little ideas That

1:18:21 Make sense to you. So you ask like how am I this for my own work. I am either completely apathetic and ignore something. Or completely obsessed. It's zero or a hundred and nothing in the middle.

1:18:33 So the reason I love Munger because Munger gave me really like Munger and your friend Naval. I had a big role in this too. Kind of the blueprint where he's just like, Hey

1:18:42 We found that oftentimes Bunger has this line that oftentimes The winning system in business goes Ridiculously far. maximizing and or minimizing one or a few variables. And he used Costco like the example.

1:18:55 And then he has another line. Find a simple idea and take it seriously. Sharing. Lessons from biographies of great people is a very, very simple idea. doing it for nine years, you know, working seventy hours a week at it.

1:19:05 Building systems for it, re doing it over and over again is not that's the serious part. His other quote that I've already shared earlier. There's ideas worth billions in a thirty dollar history book. That's another idea. That's

1:19:16 maybe why the work would be valuable and attract the audience that it could attract. Another idea from him. You want to maneuver yourself. into an area that you're intensely interested in. Like just being a fanatic like a Sam Walton.

1:19:29 Or like a Jim Sinegal. Or like a sole price. It's just Jeff Bezos, very helpful. These are fanatics. They're intensely interested in what they're doing.

1:19:38 That is worth a lot of money and I've become friends with Michael Ovitz, who's also one of the first guests on my new show. And his whole thing. It's like You cannot fight against your job.

1:19:47 That's one of the best pieces of advice. People fight against their job all the time and they lose. You have to find something that You're intensely drawn to it. So I have a couple of

1:19:56 Well, it's you should explain who Michael Lovitz is. Why don't you do that first and then I'll I'll just hop to Two questions related to Michael Lobitz specifically. Michael Ovitz. There's a shark.

1:20:06 One of the most intense people. He I think he's eighty by now. So Rick and I live very close to each other in Miami. Okay. And we always have breakfast at the same spot that I'm not gonna say publicly. Yeah, good idea. And so

1:20:18 We're hanging out. Yeah. It's always a Denny's. Moons over Miami. And so his phone's on the table. And

1:20:31 It rings. And it says Michael Ovitz. And I gasped I'm like I read Michael's Most powerful man in Hollywood at one time. He had like seventy five percent market share or ninety percent market share. He was the most powerful agent. He's the founder of CAA, which still exists to this day.

1:20:45 And I'm like, oh God. I know who that is. I've done episodes on this guy. And so

1:20:51 He picks up and they've been friends for like twenty years, twenty five years, something like that. And he goes, Hey, I I'm sitting here with somebody you might know Have you ever heard of David Senra and the Founders Podcast and Michael Oh, as he goes.

1:21:03 I listened to four of them yesterday. He was on his boat and same bargain. No, but this is how why he's a shark. And a killer. He's on his boat in Saint Bart's, he's like studying Rockefeller and Vanderbilt. He's like quoting stuff from the episode. And so uh

1:21:18 We wind up having dinner. Rockefeller, one of the biggest sharks to ever lived. Oh, a hundred percent. And so we went up having dinner and this is one of the things I asked him. You know, because his whole thing is like you're gonna run through you know, you're gonna meet thousands of people in your life. He's gonna definitely meet way more people than I will,'cause I'm an introvert and he used to like call three hundred people a day'cause he was like kind of running Hollywood. But his

1:21:36 Ovitz's advice to me was just like, you know, you're gonna meet thousands of people in your life. And what I would recommend is Just spend All the time with the handful that really matter. And he's like for me, Rick is one of those people.

1:21:48 And I go, Why? And obviously, you know, he's like all he's intelligent and they basically But he's like'cause he tells me the truth. That's one thing you can rely on, Rick for. Not sure he can help himself. Not sure it's a conscious decision. But no, but in general, his whole point is like when you get to be as famous and as well known as wealthy as ovits, everybody's gonna kiss your ass.

1:22:07 Everybody wants something from you. They wanna either want to tell you how great you are, or they want money from you, or they want you to sell like buy something. And he's just like There's so few people that you know that like truly love you. for you and don't want anything from you.

1:22:20 They just want to be friends. And they will tell you the truth. And this is the very dangerous thing that really successful people do. They surround themselves with people. That

1:22:29 Don't tell them the truth. This is an idea I got from Jim Casey, the founder of UPS. He realized that There's this weird like Capture.

1:22:36 If you only talk to your top executives. So let's say you have ten top executives and then they distribute everything else to the company. They work themselves in a position where they have the ear of the king. And you hear nothing good.

1:22:47 So he's like, I don't want to talk to them at all. He would stop and talk to every single he'd make his driver stop. Every single time they see a brown truck. And he would talk to the people doing the actual service. Because he wouldn't get the bad news.

1:22:59 They would tell them what actually Is going on. What is actually happening and the crazy impressive founders that I've been able to spend a lot of time with. Most of them are Sixty seventy.

1:23:08 Eight years old. Those are my favorite. I love them. They're not in their office. They're in their warehouses, they're on the factory line. They're in their c stores.

1:23:16 They're constant contact with the customer. And the person delivering The service to the customer. They're not looking at a whiteboard with their executives. They're very practical.

1:23:25 Non theoretical people. I think it's like really important. So Yeah, I think in my own thing it's just like I like to be obsessed and focused on one thing. I don't like to multitask. So therefore

1:23:35 You know, every single publisher. It's like write a book. You should do this. I'm like Everybody says Hey I like X.

1:23:42 So do I. And I'm like But then if I do Y I don't do X. And so my whole thing is just like very simple. I just want to do one thing relentlessly. So related to Michaelovitz.

1:23:53 There are few notes here that I think relate to the new show and the interview you did with him. And I want to ask about two of them. So the first is the benefits of low introspection. And uh the second, so you can tackle these in either order is this can't be my life. In quotation marks is a powerful motivator. Can you expand?

1:24:14 On those. So this can't be my life is a very powerful motivator. You see it over and over again. I think the sense of drive, like The way you grew up on Long Island, the way I grew up, I was like I'm not going out like this. I don't care what I have to do. No way. I think in many cases

1:24:28 S examples of what you don't want your life to be. is more powerful than seeing what you want it to be. I think maybe that one comes first and then you start to see Oh I actually this is the path I want to go down. There's an expression in Japanese which is hammengoshi. Hammeng is like opposite side. Kyoshi is teacher. And it's someone who teaches you by showing you what not to do.

1:24:49 Yeah, I would say. My family definitely the case. Yeah. Like you just see this over and over again. And so with him, like he could liter he grew up in the valley. He could see where he wanted to be. He could see the mansions of Beverly Hills. He saw the contrast between

1:25:04 This is what I'm worried about with social media. It's like Before We grew up, what do you see? You basically see like oh like that's the nice neighborhood over there. That's kind of a bad neighborhood. Now you see like The richest people in the world every day and the poorest people in the world. Like you're exposed to nothing but extremes, which is like we've never in human history we've never been exposed to that.

1:25:22 And like what is the long term effects of that? I would Teenage daughter now. And I think there's like a lot of negativity of This like

1:25:28 You only see the most beautiful people. If you were just in a town Like where we grew up. You might see a really beautiful woman. You're not seeing them all day long, like these it's just like unfair barrage to me. Yeah, uh barrage of like You know, unattainable. Standard. So

1:25:44 With him. He was like fiercely driven to succeed. And one of my favorite parts of his book You know, the guy now. wildly successful. But even before that, like When he left.

1:25:54 I think it was William Moore's agency. He starts CA, they start having a little success. He winds up buying a house in Brentwood. And it was like six hundred and fifty thousand dollars. Right. Which

1:26:03 Fantastic. But nothing compared to what's gonna happen over the next decades in his life. But he just woke up every morning he's like I can't believe I live in Bradwood I can't believe this. I did this. And then once you start seeing results, the grind becomes very addictive. And he, if you add what's Sarchety.

1:26:19 Grinder. Like I'm going to throw sheer hours and energy. He's also an amazing one of the best salespeople alive. very Charismatic. He's got a lot of superpowers.

1:26:31 actually met Mark Andreessen. I asked him this because Mark Andreessen's on record saying that When he started A sixteen Z, they essentially copied CAA. I think they brought Michael in. They did. It's in the it's they both talk about this and I so I asked him, I go, What do you think? Michael's superpower. He's like he's the world's greatest agent. And therefore the greatest salesperson. World's greatest salesperson.

1:26:49 And so that's like One example from his book is just like this can't be my life. I don't want it I'm going to do it. Direct all my energy and do something different. Now the low introspection thing is

1:26:59 I'm not a controversial person. I'm just sharing lessons from history that I read in a book. You don't have to listen, you don't have to pay attention, doesn't matter. But when I bring up the fact that A lot of these people have Low or zero. Introspection.

1:27:13 Meaning that when they find what they want to do in life They wake up and they know exactly what they're doing that day. Sam Walton was not waking up thinking. What are my feelings like today? What should I do? Should I think about the meaning of life? He's like, No, I found Walmart. I made one Walmart. I'm gonna make another one. And another one, another one, I'm gonna make every Walmart better and better and better. And I think having low introspection after.

1:27:33 you found your mission in life. And this is the sad thing. I think most people never find their mission. I know I've had my mission. I don't think about What should I do today? We're gonna talk obviously about the new show and we've been alluding to it and mentioning some of the guests. But before we get there.

1:27:46 So you're About to meet Michael. And he had been Ostensibly on vacation, but he's listening to Yeah. Your episodes on Rockefeller and others. Yeah. Do you recall any of the other episodes?

1:28:02 The Vanderbil one stuck up in my mind. I mean We text about them. I don't remember The Vanderbilt's the one that Really. The Rockefell and the Vanderbilt, but the Vanderbilt especially because Benderboat's like uh

1:28:13 What I say is like I'm kinda telling the same story over and over again. I think it's more like church than it is like just like I went to church. I grew up as a fundamentals Christian, like We Met Together with like believers on regular intervals. On Wednesday and Sunday.

1:28:26 And it's not like the preacher got up there and was like, Hey, we talked about that Jesus guy enough. We're gonna move on to somebody else. It's like we literally just go to the same book over and over again. And so I always say there's like always a historical equivalent. to anybody we're dealing with today or In the past. But Vanderbilt to me is not there's not like an entrepreneurial.

1:28:43 Historical equipment. He's like Putin or something. When he died He controlled five percent of the money supply. One out of twenty b dollars. So I guess the reason I was asking about the episodes. Yeah. And I don't know Michael, so this is not

1:28:58 A judgment or Criticism of Mike L but I suppose. If you believe that there is a value to low introspection for the purposes of building a business, which I would agree. Yeah. Right. Is there not a risk? And I have not listened to those particular episodes on Rockfeller and Vanderbilt, but I've read a bit of the history. Like these are not necessarily people you

1:29:17 automatically want to model No, I think Obits would. This is, I suppose, my question. Is like is there a risk of ending up Sort of.

1:29:27 Amor, immoral, or like sociopathic. If you one of the things you optimize for is low introspection because or maybe that's just hardwiring, frankly, and you're just not inclined to do it. Because this archetype Does exist.

1:29:43 Just like the rape, pillage, destroy archetype is an archetype. They're overrepresented in entrepreneurship. Why? Because if entrepreneurship done Correct. Yield the greatest material. rewards in human history.

1:29:55 Of course it's gonna be full of Psychopaths and sociopaths. Like I don't know if you know the numbers on it, so they they assume Five percent of the population sociopathic or something like that. Is that you know it's something I don't know the number. So let's just make it up. It's five percent of the general population. It's probably you know.

1:30:09 Five times that of entrepreneurs and investors and people like this, or anybody Political power. Power in general. This is why I think the work of Robert Caro is so interesting. And I always make the argument that like there should be a law. The only one law that I would foist upon society is that There's only one person allowed to write a thousand page biography.

1:30:26 I have no problem reading. Almost none of the books that I've read are a thousand pages needed to be a thousand pages. You just they just didn't know what to put in there. Robert Carrow is the only one that should be able to write long biographies because everything that he has in there should be in there. I think he's a master of his craft. He's the best to ever do it. But he's saying I'm not writing biographies. I'm writing about how humans accumulate and then wield power. And I did it first.

1:30:47 on a local level in New York with Rob Moses and now I'm showing what happens On a national level. And guess what? LBJ would sacrifice everything.

1:30:55 To get what he wanted. Personal ethics. His relationships Everything. Stealing elections. Yeah. This is the wonderful thing about

1:31:04 Studying history. History does repeat human nature does. Mm-hmm. So if you just read me and you both love Will and Ariel Durant. Read their history of human civilization. Read their hundred page book, Lessons of History.

1:31:14 The same stuff repeats over and over again. So when it comes out and you see it's on the news like Oh, of course no one stole the election. It's like In all different countries. Stealing elections is a is an American pastime. Just read Robert Carl's

1:31:24 And it could be like a little, you know, Senate election in Texas. Exactly. If you don't think that missing ballot boxes, yeah, it's just like it's The the line I have about this is from Will Durant where he's just like in every age Humans are dishonest and government are corrupt. It's one of my favorite quotes from Lessons of History. In every age, nothing that we're doing is new.

1:31:44 We're just the we're telling the same stories over and over and over again, you see the same people over and over again. So yeah. I'm sure. There's a ton of people. that read these biographies and that listen to my podcasts that are absolute psychopaths. I don't think Ovitz is a psychopath. He's an extreme winner.

1:31:57 He wants to win. The line may be pretty thin. Yeah, of course. Of course. I'm not saying he is, by the way. Uh sociopath, it's just that Just like you were mentioning, you can convince yourself

1:32:08 Of a bad idea. Very compellingly. Yeah. Just as you can a good idea. It's like when you start to get into the grey waters of morality, like Is winning compounds upon winning. Oftentimes the person who cares less about other people wins.

1:32:23 If they can discard that consideration. The past? True today will be true. That's the point. That this is why it's so interesting. I look at this as almost I I think something I didn't even understand. is I have the ability to like step outside of myself.

1:32:37 And I'm kinda like a casual observer of human nature. I wanna ask you And then I'm gonna hop to questions about podcasting on the new show. About how you think about Assessing

1:32:51 Leaders, entrepreneurs, reading biographies or autobiographies. And figuring out What People claim As things that help them succeed.

1:33:03 To succeed actually help them versus hindering them. In other words, like what are the because of versus the in spite of? So for instance If high disagreeability or low agreeability is common across a lot of founders. You know, to what extent?

1:33:18 Can you point to that as one of the causal factors for their success? as opposed to just an emergency break they had on causing all sorts of problems that they managed to overcome. So they succeeded despite How do you think about separating those two things? One of the things I love about James Lyson, who I you know, is a hero of mine, it's the person that on the planet that I wanna meet that I haven't met.

1:33:38 Number one is him. And what I love about him is like how stubborn he is. 'Cause I see myself in that. And it turns out his stubbornness Worked out for him.

1:33:46 Because he had the right idea. But this is where it goes back to like You can't blindly copy. There's no formula. Like there's no formula, there's no track. So it's like

1:33:53 He's stubborn on an idea. That was a great idea, it just needed more time. You could be stubborn on an idea. That's terrible and going nowhere. And then you did the exact same thing for the exact same amount of time and on the other side of that He has one of the most valuable privately held companies in the world and you have a miserable life.

1:34:08 There's no answer to that. There's nobody coming to save you. None of this shit works. If you can't Trust your own judgment and figure things out. That's why when people say, Oh

1:34:16 More people should be entrepreneurs. I don't know about that. I wanna like encourage the people that think they can do it. To do it. But I think in many cases most people should work. Like they should

1:34:25 Choose a different path. Because it's Very, very risky. You know, like uh Todd Graves. The Raising Caesar I told you about, right?

1:34:32 Should Have higher Risk tolerance. James Dyson.

1:34:37 Multiple times. Risk every single possession he had. Chase his dream. He signed over his House multiple times. If he failed.

1:34:45 They could have been homeless. It worked out for him. Todd Graves had this crazy way to finance the first twenty eight raising canees. Where essentially he goes to an angel investor, he goes. Tim Ferris and says hey.

1:34:55 You gonna give me two hundred thousand dollar loan. Okay, it's gonna be subjugated loan to the bank. I'm gonna to guarantee you a fifteen percent return on the two hundred thousand dollars for X amount of time. You say, Oh, that sounds great. If you you're paying me fifteen percent on my two hundred grand.

1:35:09 But you don't get any equity. I take that two hundred thousand equity that I have. I go to a bank and say This is as collateral. Loan me the other six hundred grand or whatever the number is to get this up and running.

1:35:20 And he did that for twenty eight times and he's like, Oh, I'm rolling, rolling, rolling. Leverage up to his eyeballs. What's the problem? I open up every time I open a new Raising Kings. There's a line out the door from day one.

1:35:29 Well, then a little thing called Hurricane Katrina comes. And guess where? Twenty eight of his restaurants are all in Louisiana. And he almost died. And he says like if I didn't come out of that

1:35:39 There would be no story. It'd be gone. And then the I guess the second part of I don't know why this popped in my mind. But

1:35:46 You know, when you're reading history. Right. We're reading about stories that happened a hundred years ago. Two hundred years ago, fifty years ago. Some of them are from that person's own mouth. Like imagine if You tell your own life story.

1:35:57 Here's the good part. You're you're gonna hide the bad. You're human. And so people are like, Well, how do you know if what you're reading is true? The line is like if you think the news is fake, wait till you read history. Just like

1:36:08 It's just old news. I don't know. My idea is like we're not taking a test at the end of this. I'm not saying like Did this actually happen in nineteen twelve? It's like is the idea behind what he's doing. A good idea for me.

1:36:21 And so like The example of Rockefeller, right? that you see that Elon used, where like Rockefeller tells the story. I don't know if it actually happened, but he tells the story. Where

1:36:30 They would have to solder closed the barrels that they Transport oil in. And he goes up one day. And he says, How many do you

1:36:39 Drops of solder do you use? He's like I use forty. It's like have you ever tried thirty eight? He's like, No, we've never tried thirty eight. Can you try thirty eight? They try thirty eight, it leaks. Okay, try thirty nine. Try thirty nine.

1:36:49 Doesn't leak. That one drop of solder. at the time of the business saved him, you know, twenty five dollars a year. business grows and compounds for the next three decades and now he's saving like, you know, hundreds of thousands from that then. Did that actually happen? I don't know.

1:37:00 But that's a good idea to find the limit. to actually, hey, maybe I should control my costs a little bit more. Maybe I should I need to actually see if I can do this in a more efficient way. I don't know if it happened. I just want the idea behind it. Yeah. Just to reiterate what you're saying, it's tough to separate the fact from fiction, right? And then sometimes this is actually why I I just read fiction. There still are truths to extract. There are

1:37:24 principles that you can extract from this is now cliched'cause it's been made into a popular movie, but Dune. Or Stranger in a strange land. Like you can actually pull a lot from just straight up fiction. And then when it comes to the business side, you know,'cause I've read so many, not as many as you, but tons of business books. Still have my

1:37:43 early copies and my notes from those books with Losing My Virginity, Richard Branson. early Avant Chenard. Yeah. I think it's let my people go surfing, et cetera. Still have all those books. And When you look at part of the reason also that I like early

1:38:00 biographies. So let's just say like hard drive. Verse on Bill Gates. versus Like a later I don't want to say sanitized, but let's say sanitized. Version where I'm going through this right now.

1:38:13 Right. Or it's like look, Warren Buffett, love the guy. He's turned himself into like the aweshucks. Grandpa neighbor who takes his garbage out of robe. He's a killer. And I remember reading I think it was the making of an American capitalist. Yes. Way back in the day. And the story that stuck out, and I hope I'm not inventing this. I don't See why I would.

1:38:32 But his routine was to go home. Walk upstairs. And read. Step over his children. Exactly. So his I was his son who just step down the stairs is like sprawled out Like a

1:38:45 chalk outline on a crime scene. steps over his injured son to go upstairs to do more reading of S one filings or whatever he was doing. You bring up something interesting. This is why

1:38:57 I don't believe them when they say they have regrets at the end of their life. So If I read Making American Capitalists, right? Excellent book. I think that's actually the best biography. It's so you read Snowball. After his wife leaves him.

1:39:08 Right? And he says. The biggest mistake if I could go back and live life again, the biggest mistake I would do I would change whatever I need. So I think her name was Susie. Didn't leave me. No.

1:39:17 Yeah. I don't believe you. I don't buy it. No, none of them. When they all say like uh Leonardo DeVecchio, the guy that started looks at. Yeah, I think I'd like to translate it from Italian. Like some of these biographies are in different languages and so like

1:39:29 Again, go back to differentiation. What can I do that no one else is doing? We've translated the Red Bull book from German. Awesome. Yeah. I listen to that. I appreciate that. But he gets the end of his life, you know, he's an orphan. Dad does your company again? Luxotica. So they does. Monopolyze glasses. Everything. So Zuck Z Mark Zuckerberg just invested, I think

1:39:48 Three and a half billion dollars for like three percent of the company. Wow. For essentially sixty years. He just a slow, methodical, Rockefeller esque march through the entire industry till he controls every single component. of eyeglasses, sunglasses, everything. It's like completely dominant.

1:40:05 And he gets the end of his life. He's like Oh yeah, like the one we're gonna have is like He's married multiple times. I think there's like A fifty year gap between like his Older son and his youngest son.

1:40:14 So it's like He's like a wild boy. But he's like in one Regret I have is like I didn't spend more time with kids. No. And not you wouldn't change a thing. It's not true. It's not true. You could I don't think they could.

1:40:25 Two that's why what you just said it's like Maybe they didn't have a choice. Maybe it's just hardwired. And so I'm going through that really right now because This week. I read source code, which is

1:40:35 Bill Gates. Autobiography about the first twenty years of his life. His Version.

1:40:41 I reread hard drive. Overdrive. Which is also written by the same guys that wrote hard drive. And then I pulled all my highlights and notes for Paul Allen's description.

1:40:50 Of Bill Gates and Paul Allen's autobiography. There is a vast difference between what's in source code and what is in hard drive and It's obviously Hard drive is more accurate. It's

1:41:00 Written right after it happened. Bill is not the seventy year old man he is now. And you know, it's just he's he's in a different world. But watch his interviews, watch the documentary on Netflix about him. He's like I was hardcore. That was my advantage.

1:41:12 He was killer. Yeah. And also again, these these questions, right? The a lot of the questions that I ask myself when I'm reading any nonfiction. I shouldn't say any nonfiction, but let's say biographies where I'm hoping to model something. One is like Is or an autobiography. Like, okay, what's the bias here?

1:41:27 Are there any particular biases I should be aware of? Okay. Is anyone in like reputation rehab mode? Before they die. Okay, let's keep that. what type of survivorship bias might there be? Who tried the same Do we have ninety nine out of a hundred who tried something similar and failed? Let's take a look at the tape. Okay.

1:41:45 Luck is luck. Luck's everywhere, right? So the fact that Bill Gates ended up with the computer winding up with the computer is just like Yeah. Timing. Timing is a huge piece. By the way, these are not all reasons to discount anything, but I just want to mention a couple of that I try to think of. The other I try to think of because I might try to

1:42:03 mimic someone in sports, right? If I'm trying to learn something new. Or language learning or whatever it might be. What is trainable and what is not trainable? 'cause I've heard these stories. from people who know Bill Gates and they're like, Well we were gonna go on this like short vacation

1:42:17 in fill in the blank. I can't remember. Costa Rica. Right. And they're gonna go on a birding Trip in the morning. It's just like a two, three hour thing with a world class burning guide. And they do the trip and the night before Bill of Stand Up.

1:42:31 And read five books on burning. Memoriz them. Yeah. Seemingly without trying. And is basically having like a peer to peer discussion with the birding expert. Yeah. As they're going through the rainforest.

1:42:44 That's not normal. No, right. That's like I'm gonna do calf raises to make my body look like Michael Phelps. Like no, you're not. That's not gonna work. So it's like when I'm looking for people to model, I'm trying to find people who have

1:42:56 hopefully a comparable composition of strengths that I can amplifying myself or that are coachable, right? And so the the question after all that is Does anyone stand out to you of The biographies or people you've met where you're like In terms of someone doing the most with the hand they have been dealt,

1:43:16 Right. So then maybe they're not a freak of nature. Like they're not a freak of nature necessarily. 'Cause there are freaks of nature among the people. Then You study, the people I study, but it's like all right. These people might have a few strengths, but

1:43:29 But they're not Complete freaks. They're not the Usain Balts of Fill in the Blank. And man oh man, did they play their hand well. They're just so good. at playing the hands that they are dealt.

1:43:42 That person. Does anybody stick out? Sam Walton. Sam Walton's one of my favorite entrepreneurs. If you really think about it, like he had this crazy thing. I don't even think he obviously didn't know. What Walmart was gonna turn into. But one of the ways they avoided all the inheritance tax is if you give away the equity before it's valuable.

1:43:58 So If you look at the last time I checked If you look at All of The Walmart equity owned by the family.

1:44:06 That means the wealth that came from his idea would be like four hundred and thirty two billion today. If it was consolidated in one person. Right. And When you study Sam, he's like obviously smart, but he would just like

1:44:17 He didn't really know what he was gonna do. Then you had this idea is like, Well, maybe I can be good at retailing. And then he starts out In Newport, Arkansas, with one store. And

1:44:27 This is what drives me insane about the modern day entrepreneurship industry is like everybody they start out with like weird goals. Like I'm gonna build a trillion dollar company. Or I'm gonna be the fastest person to a hundred million ARR. Okay, but none of these people talk like that. Like you you you're doing it for the wrong reasons, so you probably won't get there if that's just the case. Like what Jerry Steinfeld says. Like if you're just doing it for the money, you only get so far. And with him, he was just like

1:44:50 Fascinated by stores and try to Make it a little bit better every day. His kids told the story. It's just like Vacation was essentially driving to different towns and checking out different retailers.

1:45:06 And so but the reason the most important thing about his Story, one of the most important things. Is this idea to go slow now so you can go faster later? And so You're like, Okay, the beginning of his career, he's like in one tiny store. I think they start doing like twenty five thousand a year.

1:45:20 Twenty five thousand years in revenue. I think it gets up to like two hundred fifty grand. Took'em five years. But for five years you just had one story. It's like experimenting, understanding. Trying to figure out what the different parts of retail are,'cause there's no such thing as discounting and wholesale and all the other stuff that he was doing that he's gonna do later on. And then what's fascinating is later in his career

1:45:37 After Walmart, he then takes that idea. He goes and vits Sole Price, who we mentioned earlier. He takes that idea. He's like, Oh, this is a great idea. I'm gonna do this. He does Sam's club. And in that same five year period. So you have the first five years. One store? Separated by maybe forty years in the career?

1:45:51 That second five years when he's starting something else. In that five year period he doesn't have one store. He winds up doing I think A hundred stores and like seven billion in revenue. From this new category. Because you see him learning and so like

1:46:05 Yes, I think he was brilliant. He's not memorizing five books overnight and doing that. His is a very this is like mine. One of the reasons that I do what I do is because Munger became a hero and he talks over and over again about being a biography nut, that he read more biographies than Rails.

1:46:19 I got spent three hours inside of his house. Right, talking to him. Right before he died. I don't care how many biographies I read, how many books I read for the rest of my life, I cannot have a brain like him. I will never

1:46:31 Have a brain. Like him. Anybody. And ninety nine is gonna have some level of cognitive decline. You know where one of my first thoughts was?

1:46:38 About an hour and a half into the conversation with him? Was This guy had to be terrifying when he was sixty. Terrifying. Like

1:46:46 Terrifying. Think about this. Everybody that I know, I always when I get to meet fancy people, I always ask them like who's the smartest person you know, what's the best business you know, and it can't be like Apple, like these interesting weird things. And every single person that says if they have no buffet and they don't tell you it's buffet, they're wrong. And Buffett chose this guy.

1:47:03 To let him mould h and shape his thinking. What does that tell you about his intelligence? And I remember because this is what I do, I'm like laying bricks every day. I don't think I'm a brilliant person. I just like show up every day and don't quit. And so And once I find Munger, I read literally not.

1:47:19 Well, I read some of the books. I read every single book on Monger. And I reread my highlights, which like Over and over again. So my days, I wake up, work out, read for a few hours, have lunch, then reread. Past highlights.

1:47:29 In the afternoon. All my social media posts are just me rereading highlights. And so I read every single book on Munger, then I re read all the highlights, but then I read all the books he tells me to read'cause he'll tell you, read La Schwab, they'll tell you all these things. Let's say Henry Kaiser. I was like, who the hell is Henry Kaiser? Henry Kaiser started a hundred companies. He built a Hoover Dam. He built Liberty Ships. I go, what?

1:47:47 By the way, just the fact that Pretty much. Everyone listening to this podcast will have no idea of who that person is. Yeah. Just underscores, I think, how ridiculous it is to get overly fixated on legacy as an excuse for all sorts of behaviors. Yes. Nobody's gonna remember me. I'm anti legacy and I'm anti family dynasty. I think like Bequeathing your

1:48:05 Kids, a bunch of wealth is we that's another story for another day. But okay, a hundred companies, right, Hoover Dam, which by the way was made in what, like eight years or twelve years or something. I mean some insane time span. And so then First of all. I'm freaked out. I'm there. It's me, two other young entrepreneurs in their thirties. And they had both met Charlie before and then like

1:48:25 I'm like ten minutes in and I'm just like Uh. Like I just couldn't believe what's happening to me. I'm like that's f Charlie Monk over there. And like and then you know he's looking at you because he's like blind and so like He'll he'll if he's looking at you like this, he's not looking at you. He's gotta go like this.

1:48:40 And list,'cause then he's gotta look through his glasses. So you know when he's looking at you. And then my friend looks at me, he's like Get in here, like do something. I literally sat there and me not speaking for ten minutes, it's really hard for me to do. There's a reason I do monologue podcasts. So then I see we're in his library. So then I'm like, Oh, this is my savior because I've read all those books behind him because he told me to read them.

1:49:01 And so this is why I said it doesn't matter what I do. And this will answer your question along the way. I start asking questions about Henry Kaiser and all these books. And He knows the revenue. He knows the partner. He knows how the business ended. He knows the mistakes they made.

1:49:14 And then I go, Charlie, like when's the last time you read these books? He's like Fifteen ago. When we're shifting from the library to dinner. I was like, Charlie, can I go through your library? He's like, Of course.

1:49:23 And he's just sitting in in his chair. And I'm going to the books. And I opened them. No notes. Ha.

1:49:30 Different stock. Yes, different stock. Oh my God. So all right, we are gonna get to the things I promised, but I have to ask you, so in addition to smartest person, best business, what are some of your other go to questions? When you meet the fancy folks. So Who's the smartest person you know?

1:49:49 What's the best business you know? Actually got to spend some time with Eddie Lampert. And Eddie Lampert at one time was thought to be like the next buffet. And he was mentored by Richard Rainwater.

1:49:59 And I find Richard Rainwater really fascinating. Oh, excellent. Richard first of no biographies on him. He died rather young. He probably created more billionaire investors in America than any other person.

1:50:12 And direct mentorship? And Eddie. Broke the record. I think in like the eighties or nineties for like the most

1:50:20 taxable income made by an American and he was like super young. And so Eddie lives in Miami and I was at his house. He was like never again, I'm moving to Miami. No so no so that might be one of the best investments'cause he probably paid twelve million dollars for his house and his house will probably sell for a hundred fifty million today. 'Cause it's on The island that Bezos lives on?

1:50:39 And the house is beautiful. I'm sure he won't even notice it on his Yeah on his balance sheet or his life. He's like much more like out of the spotlight now. But again, he's like one of these older guys, just like very, very wise and like very s quiet and clear he's like me. He's like introverted. Just like you go to houses just books everywhere.

1:50:56 He's got this insane yacht that I went on called the Fountainhead. I'll let people Google it. It is insane. I mean great name too. Yeah, but same thing. You go on the boat, dude, and it's like full of books. Ran out of room at his house, so had to buy a super yacht for the books. It's the weirdest unintended hack ever to build a world class network of just like

1:51:14 Read a bunch of history. And they'll come get you. I've never sent a cold DM in my life. Ever. I've never seen a cold email in my life. So what do you why why did Lamper come out? You're asking him No, so I'm question I'm asking these questions, right?

1:51:27 Basically, and they're not mean to me. So he's like, Yeah, but there's like better questions you can ask. I was like, Okay, like tell me what they are. And so wha his answers are like the smartest person. He's like Well, I spent a bunch of time with Buffett. And I go, Okay. And he goes

1:51:41 It's obviously Buffett. And he goes, There's actually a more interesting And then like who's the best investor you know? That was another question I asked. And he goes, There's actually a more interesting question that you're not asking. And I go, What's that?

1:51:52 He goes, Who's the best deal maker? Mm-hmm. And I go I don't know what that means. Like I don't know anything about investing. Like The question I've asked Rick and Patrick, they probably think um retarded. Like I don't know. You can you can edit that question out if you edit that word out.

1:52:06 But like They were just like what is wrong with this guy. We didn't even get to I mean, I would say Brad Jacobs would fit in sort of the deal maker. Yeah, but he it Yeah, but his is like a different this is very fascinating what Eddie said. So again, Eddie, you can go back and like read profiles of him. Like he was like a boy Wonder Kid.

1:52:23 Rick told me a funny. Story. They used to all be at the same Golf Club in New Jersey. And Richard Rainwater walked in.

1:52:29 And Rick's like a young kid. And Rainwater's legend. And he's like making conversation with him. He goes. We just wait, the best investor in the the America is gonna walk through that door. And Rick goes, Buffett? And it was Eddie.

1:52:42 So anyways, Eddie's like, There's a better question that you're not asking. I was like, All right, well you're Way smarter than I am, like tell me. And he goes, Who's the best deal maker? I don't know what that means. And he goes well Investor is

1:52:52 Got Sean. R O I C return on invested capital. He goes the two best deal makers I ever knew. Where Richard Rainwater and David Geffitt.

1:53:01 So the thing about David Geffen is super underrated. He's another person I'd like to spend time with, if I could. Is It's one thing to have a bunch of money. It's another thing to have a bunch of money and be liquid. There is a line in this Profiling Larry Gozean.

1:53:14 That I read. That says anytime there's a downturn, there goes one of the might maybe the most successful art dealer in the world. There's all these like, you know, art. soars during great economic times and kind of doesn't do so well in other times. Anytime there was a like a dip.

1:53:28 And they needed to make money, they called David because they said David is as liquid as a day is long. David gave like a twenty six year old Eddie Lampert like two hundred million of his own money to run. So David's just like liquid. And so he goes, David is a crazy deal maker. I think he didn't stake him. He was an L P I don't think it was a fun structure. I think it was here's two hundred, make it bigger. Make it bigger. Like I don't think you'd be like

1:53:49 You make money if I make money. It wasn't I don't think it was a a permanent structure. Which is interesting, Sam Zell never had a permanent structure. There's actually a lot of I find those more more interest, but Anyways, I was like okay, so why is Richard Reinware one of the best deal makers? And he's like because

1:54:03 With Richard it was all returns No capital. And I was like, What? And he goes, Richard maneuvered himself into such a influential position in the American economy.

1:54:14 Because of who he knew. And Him being involved in your deal. immediately made more valuable. That people just gave them the equity.

1:54:21 All returns. No capital. I was like that was like one of my favorite ideas that I've like ever heard. Yeah, and he would just tell amazing stories. Like he told me a story that where like Richard when he mentors you, he like He recruited Eddie. Eddie was living in

1:54:35 New York. Working Goldman Sachs, if I remember correctly. He convinced him to move to Fort Worth, Texas. Have you ever been to Fort Worth? I have. Okay. I've been there too. Yeah. There's nothing there. And in the eighties there was less than nothing there. And this kid moves there. They would travel together.

1:54:50 And Eddie said, Richard Would want to like Summer, somewhere in like Massachusetts, and it was like this This like twenty

1:54:58 Room hotel that was the members only? Okay, so it's like not open to A random public? And he insisted that And he'd be put in the room next to him.

1:55:07 And one day a bunch of guys are knock on Eddie's door while he's in the room socially like working and like researching. And they come in with a bunch of tools. He's like, What are you doing? He's like Richard wants us to put a hole in this wall. And Richard didn't want to go in the hallway.

1:55:20 and walk around to Eddie's room, so he made them knock a hall and then install a door so he could just go. You can have direct access to Eddie? Just with the door. It didn't exist. That's incredible. You just had all kinds of Crazy stories.

1:55:34 Alright, so Not buffet. Not Munger. Smartest person. That I met.

1:55:40 Yeah, smartest person, let's revise that and just say if you pick one person you've met. to be like your Coach slash Yoda. Oh, Danny Wack. Daniel. Easily.

1:55:51 All right, that was fast. Brad Jacobs gives me great advice. Michael Dell would give me great advice. Todd Graves But like This guy is around my age. Yeah.

1:56:00 It's like the gap between us is like So obvious when you solve for that. And again, I just think of like The stuff he does, his clarity of thought. I greatly admire the product. I like products. I guess we should back up like what is actually important to you.

1:56:14 I don't actually give a shit how much money you have. I know a lot of people and I love these we're in New York right now. Some of my favorite people. I like the PE guys way more than I like the V C guys,'cause they're just more honest. They're like You know, the P E guys are like the V C gets they have great lines about this. They go, V C gets all the attention, P E gets all the money.

1:56:31 And then they're like, the VCs are lying because they say the founders are the customers. No. The LPs are our customers. The founders didn't give you any money. Then the P guys are just on us.

1:56:40 Why do you wake up every day? To maximize the value of my LP dollars. I don't wanna play that game. I don't want to play it at all, but I respect their their honesty is refreshing. You know?

1:56:50 Their scoreboard is I have six billion dollars. And I'll be better if I have eight. I am obsessed with product. The fact that I work on

1:56:58 My podcasts are seven days a week. The fact that I hand edit the transcript. Like Mr. Beast drives me he's like, You're stupid. Basically you need an editor.

1:57:06 You need all these other things and like I just am obsessed. It's like You don't work all your life to do what you love, to not do it. I don't want to outsource stuff. I like The craft. Of making the product, I'm very proud.

1:57:18 Some people might consider this embarrassing. When Spotify my Spotify rap comes out this year, the number one podcast on that is going to be my own. I go back and listen to it. One, I think of it as a tool.

1:57:29 I was on a treadmill in Malibu a few weeks ago. Listening to episode two twenty one, which I think is a biography of Charlie Mugger. I study Charlie Mugger all the time. We forget how much we forget. I listen to this hour long podcast like oh God, he's got a lot of great ideas I forgot. I'm not doing it for like

1:57:42 'Cause I like to hear the sound of my voice. I also do it because you think Kobe watched game tape? Like how am I gonna get better if I don't I just went and and when I interviewed Michael Dell, really more of a conversation than interview. But I listened to the Michael Dell episode that I

1:57:57 Just did a few months ago. And all I hear is the flaws. All I hear is like You stupid idiot. You should use three sentences, that could have been one sentence. That is not even interesting. Cut that next time. And it's just like that's how I get better.

1:58:08 I go back and listen to it. So I am obsessed with product. The people that I admire the most are like Great products. It could be Jiro Sushi.

1:58:16 It can be the Spotify app. It could be it doesn't matter. Shoes that I like. You know, I just love when people take what they do very seriously and I like the craft of it and I want to dedicate my life.

1:58:26 to making a product that makes somebody else's life better. That is what drives me. I understand. I have a bunch of friends that Like the money, or like building the systems, if you want to go back to archetypes, or just like having a big empire. I don't have any employees.

1:58:39 You know, you have three, I guess I have two. Technical like Subcontractors, you know. Doing clips for me and thumbnails and stuff like that. But yeah, I don't I don't have any desire for like a giant empire.

1:58:49 I'm like a little craftsman in my local shed over here. So why do the new podcast? David Sunra. Yes. Why do it and We can use any number of different entry points here.

1:59:02 So number one, why do it? You don't have to answer that as number one. I'm also curious where you See the podcast ecosystem. Is it early? Is it late? Is it oversaturated? Is it under saturated, et cetera?

1:59:16 And then how do you diversify? An interview. Based. Podcast. Okay, so let's take the number one.

1:59:25 The why to do it. I was resistant on doing it for years because I like to do one thing and I don't like to not focus. A huge thing. If you could summarize Nine years, four hundred biographies down to one word, what I learned is focus. These people, whether they're Psychos.

1:59:39 Nice people. Different industries. they're remarkably focused compared like they're a different species than the current level of you know, lack of attention spans that we have now. I think are getting worse.

1:59:50 So focus is excessively important. If you look at how I spend my time though. Right, we just talked about the importance of building a business is natural to you. Half my waking time I would like to be completely alone. Like

2:00:01 Not in the Even the house of somebody else. Like alone. Just reading. Thinking like I like Solitude a lot.

2:00:08 To a scary degree. So That makes sense. Founders. You're reading books all day. That's the that's what you do. Like that makes perfect sense.

2:00:15 When I'm not doing that though, if you look at what else I'm doing Essentially do this data dump where I'm in silence half the day and then I go out Every night that I'm not with my family. I usually have dinner with another founder, usually that I met through The podcast.

2:00:28 And we talk for three Two, three fo and there's no like Some people like, Oh really impressive people will send me like I'd love to talk to you and they like send me a counter right for thirty minutes. I go, I don't do th like We're not even gonna start. We haven't even started. Like if that's what you think this is, like I don't care that you're a billionaire. Like we're just never gonna meet, ever. And it's always

2:00:46 Super long. The from the very first time. First time I can mention all these people we talked for a long time. So I'm doing this anyways.

2:00:53 And For years people like Patrick were like you stupid idiot. You should be recording these. Like This is crazy. And so there's two things to answer your question that happen. One.

2:01:04 Is The first time me and Patrick grab dinner in New York with Danny Wack. Okay. We talk for four hours.

2:01:12 And We get in the car'cause I'm we're going we're leaving the city and going back to Patrick's house'cause I'm gonna spend the night there before I go back home. And the first thing Patrick says. And again, this is why it's important to like the piece of advice that Charlie Mugger gave us when we were at his house. He's like, Your job at your age is to build a seamless web of deserved trust. With other people are like you. He's like everybody knows that me and Buffett I met Buffett when I was thirty five, he was twenty eight.

2:01:32 But they didn't understand there's a bunch of other guys around our age. that we built the same level of trust with and we did life with and did deals with forever. Most of them were dead by the time I met Charlie. And so Relationships are very important and

2:01:45 Munger has a line that trust is one of the greatest economic factors in the world, which is I've never heard anybody else say that. That's a truly unique idea. I agree with that. And so like there's a level of trust that I am very Stand off fish. People call me a turtle. Like I get my shell. Right. And so once you've penetrated that, like I have a level of trust that you

2:02:03 What's right for me. Like there's no Weird competitive vibes here. We're not like secret adversaries, like we just I wanna see win.

2:02:12 And we get in the car and he's just like God damn it. You need to record these. And he's like, I've known Daniel for four years. You got more out of him in four hours.

2:02:20 Than I did in four years. He's like I spoke two percent of the time. You spoke forty nine percent. He spoke the other forty nine percent. And he's just like there's no way they can speak to the soul of the founder in the world.

2:02:31 That you can. And it's because He says something and it's not what he's saying. It's What Henry Ford did here and Henry Kaiser did there. Jim Casey did over here.

2:02:39 That's how my brain actually works. So it's okay. That was interesting. And then Part of the conversation was, you know, Daniel saying to take And it wasn't doing video.

2:02:47 Three hundred and seventy five episodes. I'm not doing for fame. I'm introverted. And Daniel just saying in a very nice way. What are you doing? Like we stop riding the fence. This is the game. Then you chose.

2:02:57 And I have the data. Video obviously is important in podcasts. Like you're lying to yourself again. You know, the importance of somebody telling the truth. I want people around me that check me. I don't want sick fans. You know?

2:03:09 And I'll tell you the second person that influenced me that check that calls me and checks me all the time. That got in my mind for a while. I was like, Okay, that's interesting. And I get sad when I don't podcast. I would like to podcast every day and I can't because

2:03:22 I had to read an entire book before I sit down to make an episode. I cannot make more than fifty two episodes a year. I just can't. People like you must read fast. No, I read slow, twenty five pages an hour at most. And then have to do all the other shit I just told you how to do, like the highlighting and like You know how long this thing taking photographs read wise. Yeah, right. And so then um

2:03:41 Something that's also that's important to me is it's like I'm not a political person at all. I don't even read the news. I will find out. The important stuff. If there's a pandemic I'll hear about it. If there's a war, I'll hear about it. Other stuff, no idea what's going on. I have no idea what's going on.

2:03:54 I'm Purposely aloof. But one thing that I am passionate about is that like entrepreneurship is good for the world. As long as you're spending your time building because all businesses, you mentioned losing your virginity by Richard Branson, he is the best description I've ever heard of a business. All of businesses is an idea that makes somebody else's life better.

2:04:12 And therefore there's always opportunity because there's infinite ways to make other people's lives better. And so that's what I'm trying to do. And so Another person that we've come close with is Jared Cushner. We live in Miami together.

2:04:23 And We went and met for dinner. And Jared's like a really smart and like buttoned up guy. And again, I don't pay attention to politics. So like the way I met him is actually He reached out to Rick. And it's like I'm a huge

2:04:34 Founders fan. Can you see if David would speak at my company offsite? A lot of companies ask me to speak of their company off site. And I didn't know anything about Jared. All I know is that people on on the internet

2:04:44 Like argue about'em. Because of the Trump stuff. You know? But I Judge people on how they are with me.

2:04:50 This had to happen to you, or you were like That person's great and you deal with like, Oh, that guy's terrible, or vice versa. I've had both. Yeah, exactly. So it's like I'm gonna go into this, I have no idea. About all this stuff. I'm just gonna see how this is gonna go. And then we hit it off right away. And he was like, try to pay me. I was like, No, no, like it's in Miami, I can drive over there, I could talk about

2:05:09 This shit all the time. I like talking about this. So like And then uh we just built a relationship and a friendship from that. We have similar interests And so We meet for dinner one day and it's right after Basically he went and spoke at this conference in Miami.

2:05:21 And He thought he was gonna go talk about his new fund. And He thought. He was friends with the guy and the guy's like selling tickets and making money off his name being there and like it's not like you're paying the speakers.

2:05:32 And the guy like Essentially. Ambushed'em. and starts asking questions like how can you do business with Saudi Arabia? They chop up And all this other stuff.

2:05:42 And then before the talk was even done, his social media team was like clipping it and like sending it out and like press releases. What a mess. So I show up at this dinner. And Jared's always buttoned up and you know Always got his shit together. And he's just like

2:05:55 What the hell was going on here? By the time the dinner ends, it's Everywhere. And again, I'm like This is weird.

2:06:03 That the business and tech press in America. They hate business and tech. They like cover things. I'm an enthusiast. I'm not a journalist. I'm not a critic. I read books all the time where I hate the person or it's on I you'll never see me do a podcast about it. I wanna talk about stuff I like.

2:06:17 Not things I hate. It's a weird thing to go through. Imagine waking up every day. And your job is to like cover people that you secretly like wish you were. Like there's just weird stuff that Around this, right? And so we had this idea at dinner, I was like There should be a place where I'm not talking about sycophant. I'm saying like

2:06:33 Todd Graves. People make fun of him because he says that God made him good at chicken fingers and that he he's living a chicken finger dream and he thinks it's a mission. But I'll tell you what, he believes it. He's been offered billions. He owns over ninety percent of the company. He will never sell that company.

2:06:46 He's not doing it for money. He's doing it because he wants to make money and he does a lot of great things in the community. And I think People should know that this guy exists and His ideas should be spread.

2:06:56 That's a good for the world. So Those two things happened. And I'm like, Oh, this is interesting. I have this weird Base of knowledge.

2:07:04 So the way Jared describes it is like he's like talking to you is like talking to fifty of His she's greatest entrepreneurs at the same time? 'Cause like we'll talk about something and Same thing you see, I do. And then Daniel's way of saying that, he's like, You're like a L M. trained on history case entrepreneurs with the temperature turned up'cause you're crazy.

2:07:18 And so it makes it like entertaining. I mean I think that's no small contributor to why you have A

2:07:27 Die Hard. Fan base. Like it's the pulpit preacher kind of fervor that you bring to it. But I didn't understand that. Until I thought about my childhood. When people say they go to church.

2:07:38 That's not the kind of churches I went to. This is like This is really gets me sadden where I was almost crying earlier. It's like My mom deserved a better life. She didn't deserve To grow up with the monster of her father and the

2:07:50 Frankly, the bitch that her mom was. Like The one thing that I remember about my mom's mom that she said to me was that I was a faggot. That is literally the

2:08:01 Only memory I have is her She was mentally ill. You'd go to her house. You know National Enquirer? And like all those things that uh There's national choirs like the Sun and all this other stuff that you you get like right when you go to the grocery store.

2:08:13 She was like a hoarder, so she would You'd go in the bathroom and like Stacks all the way up to the You wouldn't throw them out. But she read them like we read the Wall Street Journal.

2:08:21 Like you assume the stock is what the stock they said the stock price is. She'd read it like This is true. Like Bigfoot is true. President this is I was a kid, this is the memory. I was the age when President Clinton When Clinton was in the White House And she was convinced because

2:08:35 That Clinton was gay. And his wife was lesbian. And so she saw like conspiracy everywhere. And she would direct that her Grandchildren. Which is like monstrous.

2:08:44 And so like She deserved my mom deserved better. And then the problem was my mom didn't have an education. And she was a very naive person, and so she Turn to the church. But the church she turned to was like, Do you know Benny Hinnis?

2:08:57 I do know the name, yeah. Okay. So That's like You come up there and he blows on you and you don't have leprosy anymore. Yeah. Or he hit you in the face. Like

2:09:05 Does this thing. And you can walk now. And all all this stuff was acting. They caught these people over and over again. And like I remember my mom didn't have a bunch of money and her putting like a couple of crumpled up dollars And giving it to them because she thought

2:09:17 This is like what she's gonna get in her life. It's Sickening to me now. That that happened to her and that, you know, she fell prey to that. And then these people did this, and they have private jets and they have all kind of crazy

2:09:29 I'm sure there's some people that do that and they believe it. That's a different thing. If they really believe it. I know that guy didn't believe. Like the he come on. You didn't believe that. But then I didn't understand that oh my God. That influence the way I make my podcast because it is like

2:09:44 Preacher. I feel I shouldn't be sitting at a desk I should be sitting at Oh pulpit. Somebody bought the domain church for founders dot com. And it points to my podcast.

2:09:56 That's amazing. So that's why I'm doing it. And then the other thing was like I just like podcasting. And I can have a conversation every day. So we're going to start out like every other week and then move up to every week. And then I wanna be having multiple conversations a week. That's what I wanna do because I'm doing it anyways. Let's just put a microphone there. And it's not an interview.

2:10:14 Yeah, some questions I have for them. But it's like A conversation. The idea that I'm gonna do a business show interview and compete with Patrick. I think he's the best interviewer by far.

2:10:24 He's so concise. And perfect and like He's just really good at it. And I like to talk. I wanna talk forty nine percent of the time.

2:10:32 How will you Balance the two shows. Founders podcasts. Takes a lot as it is. Yes.

2:10:42 One of the benefits of that format. Is No, this might put a cap on growth to some extent, but if you're not playing the video game. It removes a lot of complexity.

2:10:53 Right. You don't necessarily need to travel. You just read. You enjoy your solitude. You do some long form audio, you can have notes in front of you. You can be picking your nose, like in in as you take a deep breath.

2:11:06 There's a lot of flexibility there. How are you going to balance the two without sacrificing Founders, right? Like snuffing out the magic. X when you're working on Y. That's a great question.

2:11:18 And it's something I was like very concerned with and that's why I said no for so many years. And so then you think if you said yes, then how would you do it? Instead of just blankly saying no. And there's a secret of dealing with me that everybody that knows me for a long time realizes. It's like water on a rock. Okay. So like you're gonna come up to like this is literally happen multiple times.

2:11:35 So let's say like Patrick or same Hinky would be like I have this idea. And immediately like that's the stupidest idea I've ever heard. And I'll be like really like Aggressive and angry. Stupid idea. Terrible idea. Then they mention it like

2:11:47 Two weeks later. Now it's just dumb idea. Mention again like a few weeks later. Silence. Then a few weeks later, I'm like, hey guys, I have a great idea. It's that idea. It's that idea.

2:11:58 So The slow bake. Then they're just like they know. They're just like okay. I just gonna it's just a water on a rock. I'll get to it, but it's gonna take a while. So the problem is now I've said that. They know that and then you have the other people that have to deal with me that like I'm very difficult to deal with, obviously. You are too. And like I think like that's the one thing we can bond over.

2:12:16 You're not trying to be mean, just like it's just Part of our personalities. And so The answer to your question is Founders is a one person. So like I read, I read, research, I record, I set my own mics, I do all the editing, I hand do the transcripts, I do everything.

2:12:31 The only thing I outsource is that I think have the clip guy I have is a little genius, the young kid living in Paris. His name's Maxim, he's incredible. And then I have somebody now because I have to play the YouTube game, which I hate. And I refuse to do. You know the YouTube thing? Like I haven't.

2:12:46 Exactly. I've sort of cauterized myself on that. I won't do That kind of shit. I'd rather not get views. I have to see something and say I would click on that myself. Mm-hmm.

2:12:56 I'm not doing things for numbers. I didn't even know how many people were listening to founders'til like recent to like first like six years. I never looked. And then I started doing these big sponsorship deals and I'm like, Oh, I should look. And then like, Oh, this is great, but I don't like thinking about numbers. I don't want it to influence anything that I do. And so

2:13:10 Founders. Basically takes seven days. Usually I'm late on the episode. I could see I f something in common with Dan Carlin. Yeah. No I'm like Five days later.

2:13:21 Five monthsly. God, man. Love you, Dan. You know that. Yeah, Hunter he he's like literally the best podcaster ever lived. Like So What I realize is if I was going to do this

2:13:34 I would need a team. And I don't like working with other people because I am difficult. I can be mean. I just am and I don't want to be mean. You know, I really don't. Like you you mentioned earlier, like not Getting some of the the bad

2:13:47 personality traits from them. You know? And I was worried, like I've asked friends like do you think I'm like sociopathic? Am I this like no, you have empathy. Like you're like you have a hard outer show, but you're really soft in the middle. Patrick will tell you that he's just like Turtle.

2:13:59 Yeah, exactly. When I was in Japan they ch we went to some what's the ones where you have like twenty course meals almost Oh my gosh, yeah. Yeah. And they try to liter literally means basically I'll leave it to you. Or Macasero is like leave it to you. So you can use it that way too. Ah, Macasero. But why do they call it Hamakase and it's like multiple what does it have to do with it? Pick anything a la carte. You let the chef sit down and they just give you what they want to give you. Yes. And then they come in there and you're leaving it up to them. But then they come in after everything and they like

2:14:26 Like, want to talk to you about it. Oh, that's very on Japanese. Okay. That's probably for foreigners. Okay. So They try to give me they might be like this is this and then they stop. Well but this guy was giving you a little mini mini test. He tried to give me no, he tried to give me the Essence of turtle. It was baby turtle. I was like, I'm not eating turtle. Doesn't sound great.

2:14:45 Not I'm not excited about it. The face you just made should be the I mean if David Center doesn't work as a podcast name, you could have Essence of Turtle. So What I realize is I need a team. So What I could see is eventually going down. Like right now I'm making a new founders episode, like every like

2:15:04 Ten to fourteen days, which is not good. And I try to do every week. The cadence probably should be every two weeks'cause how Me and Rick were talking about this this morning. In regards to you the same way.

2:15:13 It's like What's that old? Apocryphal saying that. What about your short letter? But I didn't have time, so long one. Yeah.

2:15:19 He says me and you share that thing. Where it's like The reading's not taking longer. The recording's taking longer. It's the editing before I do anything. It's this we'll be

2:15:28 Fifteen thousand word thing, I'm trying to get down to five thousand words. Takes so long to do. So answer your question. Could see. A future where I'm never gonna stop doing founders.

2:15:37 where I have to reduce it can't be, you know, fifty two a year. Second and biggest thing is I Took an idea from One of Rockefeller's

2:15:46 So one of the things that I do that I also think is important is You read all the famous biographies, but you gotta go through the bibliographies. Books are made out of books. Everybody has read Titan by Rontrenau. In the bibliography of that, there's a better the best Rockefeller biography I've ever read. And have like

2:16:03 eight at the house I haven't read yet. I uh collect like obscure Rockefeller biographies. That I'll mention it too What's your favorite one? It's called John D, The Founding Fathers of Rockefellers by David Freeman Hawk. Better writer than a titler, I guess. Yes.

2:16:16 Two hundred and fifty page instead of eight hundred. But all about what you really want to know. You don't want to know about it. Where his grandfather was born. You wanna know how he built Sandwich.

2:16:24 And there's this idea in there that I've used called secret allies. This is gonna answer your other question about podcasting. Where he's at the beginning of the oil industry. It's the very beginning, and he's there. Rough and tumble time. Yeah, no one knows shit about what we're finding.

2:16:37 So what does he do? He goes and builds a network of secret allies. with other oil refiners. And then eventually do something that's even more nefarious. They start something called like the oil refiners Association of America or something. And then he he gets himself elected president to that. And then what happens is like it's like if if we had a podcast reunion I'm president of the podcaster union and then I go to you and like Tim, what's your downloads this month?

2:16:57 Okay, and how much are you charging for ads? And then who's your next guest? And he's getting all this data. So then he sees That's a joker. I don't have to he that guy's already out of business. He doesn't even know what you don't have to worry about that guy. Yeah. That guy's a killer, I need to buy his company and make him a partner.

2:17:10 And so this idea of secret ally, so I'm obsessed with podcasting. And so what I would go do I'd go around and I would talk to any podcast ever talk to me. And we talk about Everything.

2:17:20 Downloads, adds Who you're selling to, how you're selling, who you're using for editing. Maybe that's the better sense I got. They'll even tell you, like I there's podcasters that literally like I took an idea from one podcast and gave it to another podcast because that's the whole thing. We don't col I don't collect it and hold it. We spread it around. And they've made millions and millions of dollars from these ideas.

2:17:49 Yeah. Derek Sivers does too. Gives away as many as possible. And if he can't get rid of one that keeps We share so if you're talking about podcast data. Who's the mad scientist podcast data? Chris Hutchins. And you talked to him.

2:18:01 We both talk to him. Yeah. And we you like He has good shit'cause you tell he tells you stuff and he tells me stuff, you know, like that I didn't know. And he's like this weird mad scientist, but he's in like this weird part of podcasting I don't even think about. All the hacks. He's been on your podcast twice. Like and umce because he wanted to have this long conversation with me about a bunch of stuff I was doing and I was like, If we're gonna do that. Make it good with your questions and we'll just record it and then I can share it because I don't want to answer all these questions over and over again. It was about podcasting. It it's a it's a great idea. And so

2:18:30 Basically I took that idea. So anyways, I was able to build a lot of relationships. With a lot of great podcasters, we're friends, we share information. But then you also see like oh white, there's like a lot of disparity between like podcast teams and stuff. And so Rob Moore and Andrew Huberman tried to recruit me.

2:18:46 Years ago. 'Cause they have a Pycast network called Psychom. They they really don't do much with. Okay. 'Cause it's really hard.

2:18:53 To like launch another health podcast when they're kinda dominating that vertical. Like is there another human in that vertical that's not discovered? Unlikely. And Everything power laws were everything around us.

2:19:03 And so I got this crazy DM and then a phone call with Rob. And he's just like dude Who are you? And this is when I had no again.

2:19:11 Five thousand listeners. And he's like, I've never come across anything like this. And then we went to talk and I think every single time we talked Oh, this on the phone. for over two hours every time, and it's all about podcasting. They're like, We're looking for other humans.

2:19:24 And you're like this giant nerd. That like loves reading obscure shit. And breaking it down. In like an entertaining manner, just like Andrew does. And he's like

2:19:33 Would you be interested in joining us? On Tycho. And I was like, You are two weeks too late. Because it's not announced yet, but I have a verbal agreement with this guy named Patrick. And I'm joining Colossus.

2:19:44 But we still became friends and er and everything else. And so Basically me and Rob, like, we'd spend a lot of time. I spend my summers in Malibu. So I see them all the time. That's where they're they and I've talked to Andrew and like They're just killers. Yeah, they're very good at what they do. They're just operationally excellent. And they have a small but mighty team.

2:20:02 And every single person on that team. They're very focused. So like They're photographers, one of the best photographers. They're editors, one of the best editors. They're video people are some of the best video people. They're internet guys, one of the best internet guys. Like it's just like Just

2:20:14 Everything. And so their whole point was just I was like, listen, founders is never going anywhere. Staying on Closus. Like staying exactly what it is. But if I do something new

2:20:24 I'll let you know. So when I went to them it was just like Here's the thing. I I'm gonna pick the guests.

2:20:31 I'm highly disagreeable. I will never take direction from anybody. I wanna pick the guests and I wanna have the conversations. And then everything else. Has to be A plus team Rami.

2:20:41 And that means from Visuals. to editing. Two Clips.

2:20:45 to every single thing. And that's they're operationally excellent. I have not met a better like Yeah. Just spend time with them. Very well architecture. And then the way they built their business is genius. So what does success look f like for you? Two years from now, three, five, pick your time frame.

2:21:00 Success looks the same now and forever. That I'm proud of what I made. Uh-huh. That's it. Like I don't care what the numbers are. I love the say this show does really well.

2:21:08 Oh yeah, it's going to. So David Santa. Yeah. Does really well. Yeah. And Then

2:21:15 Not saying Rob would do this, but It's like you know what we would really Love to do. is a third show. And

2:21:23 It's Incredibly compelling. Maybe it's Slightly different angle or a totally different angle. Who knows? Right. It's like

2:21:33 Who the hell knows? Interviewing spouses of the all these famous people, which I think would actually be an amazing podcast. I'm sure someone's doing it. But besides the quality of the product and being proud of the product. Like there is such a thing as too many different products. Oh for sure. There is such a thing as simply burning the candle at both ends, so

2:21:54 You're at a battery capacity that Compromises the product, maybe long term. Or your life. Right, you've got more considerations than just business. Yep. So how do you think about

2:22:06 Those other factors. When you telescope out a few years. I'm not a long term planner. So like I I would say like I'm Basically non analytical at all. I go straight off intuition.

2:22:18 Steve Jobs is a great line where he's just like He thinks intuition is more important than intelligence. And the intuition played a larger role in like his success than anything else, intuition and perseverance. And so like I used to think I was like more analytical. And like I have a five year plan, a ten year plan.

2:22:32 All a great life is Is a string of great days. And so The furthest I plan out is like Twenty four hours. I actually have this weird I don't even know if I should say this publicly.

2:22:42 I don't think people like humans actually understand time at all. And like when you say a decade, like yeah, we know decades like ten years, but like do we actually understand what that means? Like I think we understand. We maybe understand. A week, a month, we definitely understand.

2:22:55 A day because that's how we live. We live twenty four hours our time. And so all I try to do is like can I design a day That I really enjoyed. Not like Hedonistic. I'm not like laying around doing nothing. Like I have to work. I feel guilt and shame.

2:23:07 When I'm not being productive. And that's probably a bad thing. There's all reasons that you could psychoanalyze why that is the case, but I just know how I am. I like to work. I like to get up and get after it. I don't like taking vacations. I don't like doing the stuff I get invited to is crazy. It's just like

2:23:21 I like to work. I like podcasting. I'm obsessed with it. Everybody's like, Why don't you we talked about this most of it's like why don't you do something else? I like doing this. I will keep doing this. So Take your question. I just try to make a great day. And the way I make a great day is like I wanna wake up. I'm gonna take care of my health.

2:23:35 I want to read. I wanna make a product I'm really proud of and I'm gonna spend time with people that I love and admire. And I'm gonna do that the next day, and the next day, and the next day. And I think if I have a a great day today and a great day tomorrow. Yeah.

2:23:47 Shitty day a month from now and then a better day the next day. And I get to my own life and it's just a string of great days. That will be a great life. And so Two years from now.

2:23:56 I don't know because if you asked me two years ago, I said there's no way I'm gonna do another podcast. But I would say like my answer is that simple. The maximum I like about this is like I love the climb, I don't care where the summit is. I just like the activity. For the sake of itself.

2:24:10 And so therefore I'm going to do it. And I hope it's well received. But I couldn't have predicted that founders was gonna turn out the way it was. So I don't know. I'm just gonna do Great work that I'm

2:24:21 completely fascinated by And it gives me energy. And On the other side of that, like this is what Stephen King said. I'm not

2:24:29 Just the writer, I'm the first reader. I listen to every single Episode of Founders. Before anybody else. And I just threw out one.

2:24:37 So The book is great. Bill Walsh's the score takes care of itself. I read it. The first time five, six years ago.

2:24:43 I read it again. Love the book. I made a podcast on it. It's like hour and fifteen minutes long. I finished editing it. I listened to it.

2:24:51 Not good enough. Do the way. That's it. Can I make something that I'm proud of? So I believe all of that and I wanna push on a little bit because the great days make great lives, I agree with.

2:25:02 But now your sort of circle of interaction is expanding. With a show that involves other people with very busy schedules. So to what extent are you gonna be traveling to all these people versus having people travel to you? I mean that type of Decision.

2:25:18 Has longer term implications, right? So I'm curious how you think about that. So the way I think about this is This goes to the other side of me, that's probably not healthy.

2:25:28 That like I have a ruthless competitive drive that I think would terrify most people. I have a very negative inner monologue. I never think I'm doing Love.

2:25:37 I have like entire like multiple people. Depending on me. Financially. way above and beyond just your wife and kids, like other people that I have to make sure that I can take care of.

2:25:48 Do I have a lot of pressure on me? I want the pressure. So May answer your question is like I'll do whatever it takes to win. And so if that means I gotta get on a plane Or I

2:25:56 Get Lola sleep. Then like that's what's gonna happen. But I also think like you're also smart. And you can Think about these things. Like, okay, you want to talk to extreme winners in business.

2:26:06 Is essentially like Not really startup founders. I want people that have like decades of experience. You know, every single person if you look at the first few Like the people we've been recording with so long like I'm just more interested in talking to people that have done things for a long time.

2:26:18 That are smarter and more productive and Better than I am. And so Setting up here where we are in New York.

2:26:25 Probably a good idea. 'Cause everybody comes through New York. Now we've recorded Several in LA. Here's also thing.

2:26:33 To consider. Most of the people I'm talking to. Have plans. Rick pulls me to side and says this all the time. Multiple people have told me this. You don't understand the impact that you're having on people.

2:26:42 'Cause I don't think about it. I'm by myself all the time. I don't look at numbers. And so People have literally gotten their jets and flown across the country because I was like, Hey Can you do it on this day in LA? Are the teams there, it's like more convenient.

2:26:55 And they do it. Because they think I've done something for them. But I'm just like, No, no, no, I haven't done anything for you. I just thank you for listening. The fact that you listen to my podcast means I get to do this for a living. This is where Munger.

2:27:06 has really Heavily basically influence my thinking. He's just like The reciprocation tendency in humans is so pronounced. And it's evolved. Yes, and it's never going away. And what I didn't understand and I still don't understand because I don't like talking about I don't like thinking about the shit. I think about like as if I'm talking to one person, right?

2:27:23 Is the fact that So many people have gotten value. Like every single person's recorded an episode with us for the new show so far. Joseph Of mine.

2:27:34 And their point was It's important work. Todd Graves has actually told me this two weeks ago. He's like it's Important work and it's more important the bigger company gets. Because if I can hear a single idea Or either avoid a mistake or get a good idea.

2:27:47 And it makes a one percent difference on my business that's I can't do math. I can't do public math. A billion dollars. Whatever the number is, two billion dollars. Like it's a huge or not to be ten percent. So Who makes a ten percent difference in his business. It's a huge swing.

2:28:00 And so so far. And again, you have a private jet, like where do you actually live? Mm. Yeah.

2:28:07 Wherever you happen to your carrying costs for that jet are pretty high. So I there's a little bit of pressure just to utilize the damn thing. You want to hear something funny? I'll go back to why I think New York and LA is gonna be where I'm recording most of these. And we're willing to travel. We will if we have to. Dyson says, Come do it. I'm coming to England. I don't give a shit. Sam Zell told me he's like

2:28:25 I told you that that lunch I had with him changed my life. He's like Don't make The same mistake. He's like, I know all the rich guys. He says, First of all, they're all guys. So what he told me.

2:28:35 It was two. You'd be surprised how many of them are miserable. And they like do stuff they don't like for more money that they can't spend. And then they make the same mistake where Make by slight this is his words, not mine.

2:28:45 Yeah, they buy slightly nicer versions of the same shit. He goes, the difference between a ten million dollar house and a thirty million dollar house is negligible. And he's like, I own My Place in Chicago in my compound amali. That's the word he used, compound.

2:28:58 And he goes, I rent everything else. The things that you own start to own you. And he said every year after I think Thanksgiving and in between Christmas You take his entire family, extended family, to this little Village in France. And he said he

2:29:11 Zo is a shit talker. And he said funny things, he goes, I could buy the whole village. He goes, I don't. I rent it. And then I don't think about it until I go back. It's somebody else's problem.

2:29:19 And he goes. There's only one true luxury in life. He goes. Private jet. Try to get to private jet money.

2:29:26 And he's like, I use my jet. Three hours a day. on average he uses his jet three hours a day. He was in South Florida because he's like I woke up Chicago this morning. Got on my jet.

2:29:35 I went across the street, gave a talk. To a bunch of investors and entrepreneurs,'cause that's what he wanted to spend his last days doing. He knew he was dying. He didn't tell me though. I didn't know that. We were scheduled to have another dinner. And it got canceled and they said he was sick. I said, Oh, he got covet. Died three weeks later.

2:29:48 So we're gonna see him again. The way he was spending his His last days. At his own expense. Traveling all over the world on his own.

2:29:54 Beautiful giant plane, spending a lot of money. Yeah. passing on the knowledge that he learned through sixty one years to other investors and younger entrepreneurs. And so he goes, I did that this morning? Came over here, had lunch.

2:30:04 I'm gonna get in my car and go back to Chicago. Use it three hours a day. So so far People have been willing to fly. They come to us.

2:30:12 I'll come to some people if they're super busy schedules. And then I think just setting up in like a a place where they all will come through would make a lot of sense. Anyone on your wish list who you haven't been able to track down? No, surprisingly. Again, I don't like thinking about this. Where like I don't understand. That today

2:30:29 Right now, if I do an episode on somebody living It's going to get to them. Mm. They might not be a listener. This just happened with G Ma V. So

2:30:37 People are s always surprised. They think, you know, who's on your list? Like Obviously I look like respect Bezos, respect Elon. Like all them, you know? But I would say like Todd Graves, they're like what the hell's wrong with you, Jen I'm James Dyson, the vacuum cleaner guy and they're like they're just like I'm weirdly obsessed with these people. And so one of the people I'm obsessed with is Jim Ive. Mm-hmm.

2:30:53 And Jimmy Ivine, Defiant Ones. Such a good series. I watch it. Oh my God. It is so well done. If anyone hasn't seen Fine Ones, go watch it. It's Head spinning like. W with the description of the d four part documentaries, Oh, it's a relationship between Doctor Dre and J Ma Vine. Yeah. It's really documenting about entrepreneurship. It's about chasing a path. There's no path in front of you.

2:31:14 There was no path for Dre to get out of Compton. There's no path. From Jimmy to get for the son of a longshoreman in Brooklyn to go what happened to him. He's fascinating.

2:31:23 And then this is my point about like What do you actually value in life? Jimmy's a billionaire, you know. I don't know he's got a billion, two billion dollars worth of cases. I'd be more interested in

2:31:33 Th than if he had a hundred billion. Like if you ask me whose life would you want, Buffett or Munger? Buffy was a hundred times richer. I'm taking Munger every day. What I like about Jimmy

2:31:43 Is that he lived an interesting life. The episode You see it on Define Ones. Crazy stories in there. But Rick Rubin. W you mentioned if

2:31:53 Podcasting saturated we can we can get to. Rick Rubens. Really good because he's a World class listener. He took a skill set. What was his skill?

2:32:02 For the work that he did. Why are these musicians hiring him? To listen. to hear something they don't hear and to suggest something they might not hear. Might not understand.

2:32:13 And the episode he did with Jimmy Iveen, I think came out in two thousand twenty three. I think it was like the single best podcast I listened to all year. And it's just Jimmy Ivine telling insane story after insane story about the music business. Cause the music business is a wild business. And What I like. About my business. Is that

2:32:29 It's like a unique experience generator. It creates opportunities and experiences you can't buy. And the amount of people I get to meet and talk to My memoirs are gonna be wild. Because of like the weird dinners I've been to and the planes I've been on and the boats I've been on.

2:32:44 And it started because I was a giant nerd with a giant head. Sitting in a room. by himself for five years just Mainlining. Biography after biography after biography.

2:32:55 Jimmy's really interesting to me. And then what happened is Part of this I can't tell you how I got connected. He agreed to do the show and one of the previous guests is the one that connected me, which again they I just don't feel I deserve.

2:33:06 how nice these people have been to me and what they're willing to do. And I don't even like asking them for this. But It got to be true. The worst possible work in do you think it's a matter though. The worst Possible thing.

2:33:17 Do you feel like you don't deserve it? I feel like that's an important question. I'll answer that question a minute. Buffett has the line is like the people that win. Are the ones that Their eyes are on the field, not the scoreboard.

2:33:26 Mm-hmm. I don't I was going for a walk last night and like You know this happens to all time. I'm way Earlier.

2:33:33 You're like an OG, man. You've been famous like Way like When people W stop me on the street, which happens. I'm like, How do you know what I look like? That's gonna happen more and more. Yeah, exactly. So like I've read all your blog posts about this too. I've been like I was on the phone Morgan Housle this morning.

2:33:47 Who's a big fan of yours, obviously you great friends he's been yeah. And we were talking about that. Like the security around this and all this other stuff. And then we were talking about you. Morgan's just the peach of a human. He's the opposite of me. Psychology of Money, great book.

2:34:01 It won't stop selling. Yeah. Stops. I know. Man. Got lightning in a bottle on that one. So Yeah, earned it. Earned it too. Oh, a hundred percent. And the nicest guy. If you think you want to find my directional opposite, and we'll go back to the question you think is important. Morgan genuinely believes

2:34:16 That his ceiling that he should be an insurance salesman somewhere in the Midwest. Making a hundred thousand a year. And the fact that this guy Got really, really wealthy. Astronomical numbers.

2:34:27 Really, really wealthy. And just can't wakes up every day, can't believe his life. I wake up every day be like, why am I not a billionaire? It's like it's like he's happy in a way I will never be, and this is why I think Daniel X's advice about chasing Daniel does not believe This is one of the first things I asked him on the the show.

2:34:44 Was He was the one that put this idea out there that it's Life is not about happiness is about Impact. He is not chasing happiness. He's chasing impact.

2:34:52 And he's the one that actually convinced Dara The founder of Uber tells the story. They were having drinks. Good distinction. I met Travis too. Yeah. Most intense person I've ever been in.

2:35:03 In context with he's he is one hell of a builder, man. Oh, for sure. And different batteries. Most intense. And I've been around a lot of tents. He is Yeah. He's very fascinating. He has different gears than most of the people. Oh, and the storytelling and the rock and turn he's a phenomenal storyteller. Phenomenal communicator. So anyways. When Dar was going back and forth about becoming CO of Uber.

2:35:22 He said he originally gonna say no because like he was pretty happy with his life and Daniel in a very direct way. It's like since When's life about happiness, about impact. It's like one of the most important companies in the world. And you can have an impact on it. You can have an impact on the way cities have changed. You absolutely have to do this. And I think that's like a really interesting idea. So I am trying to have impact. So to answer your question.

2:35:40 Do I think I deserve it? I obviously like know that I put a lot of work into it and I believe that the product is good. And I think I found what I put on the planet to do.

2:35:51 But I don't Like thinking about it. I don't like thinking About Its impact on other people.

2:35:59 I like it because I like it. Like I make it. I'm like, I would listen to this podcast. I think it's valuable. I think you start doing shit for the wrong reasons. I talked to a lot of the had people on Spotify and they said that one of the biggest mistakes they made. It's like the great thing about podcasting is like the people that come up like we did through like the garage.

2:36:16 I listened to your first episode. Like I remember Tim Tim Talk talk Tim Tim Talk I remember from my kitchen table. With a friend. And why did you do it? I think you had a couple glass of wine, right? Yeah. And with a friend because you're like, I don't know. Figured out pretty quickly after listening to episode one that the second episode is going to be sober. Yeah. Oh man. Josh Waitskin, number two. But you come up with like you did it because you were curious. You you only talk to people you really want to talk to. You had no production costs. And so Spotify said they flipped it. They're like We took something that was low production cost done by enthusiasts and people in the garage.

2:36:45 Huberman's analogy, this is like it's punk rock. Punk rock is great because it started with people that just wanted to play in the garage and then they got good and then they played for stadiums. And so Spotify's like, Oh what we did was like We

2:36:57 took a low production cost, made a high production cost because we had these big ass Contracts and then we hired celebrities. And No one

2:37:04 listened and the people that did listen, they stopped because the celebrities were just doing it for money. They need to do it'cause they love it. And I think that's the key. It's like I truly Love this. I did it. Four. Five and a half years when no one was listening. That told you.

2:37:17 And I like love it. But I think one of the worst things you could do is like I'm gonna do it'cause Status is the funny thing. Podcasting is Dorky. It's low status. In two thousand sixteen? You think that was fucking high status? No. No. It was like you dorky nerd with a I'm not asking

2:37:32 If you're seeking status, it was more if you feel that you're unworthy Of People flying to you and doing these things. Is a very those are two very different. I I meant like I think you see this now. that podcasting is obviously very influential and can be There's so many people jumping into it that clearly don't love it.

2:37:48 They like it'cause the CPMs are high or like whatever, or they wanna be famous. I Had no video for eight years. Do you think I wanna be famous? Do you think I wanna be recognized? Like no, I obviously don't. I had the fucking had the the most powerful person podcasting berate me at dinner in a nice way, saying, You idiot, you have to do video. That's the only reason I did video, because Daniel told me to. And if how smart am I? If I don't listen to him.

2:38:09 Like then I'm an idiot. Like I have to do it. I don't like doing it. Like I don't know, man. I don't know. I think at some point like the platform gets big enough, like I flew here for this. Why? Because you have a massive platform. And you're willing to extend it to me.

2:38:21 And like I travel wherever you say which is Iceland. I'm coming to Iceland, brother. Like I don't know what to tell you. Like you want to go to I know you're like Argentina, let's go down there. Like we'll do an Argentina. So yeah, I think eventually. When they see it's big enough. That yeah, people would come to you. Also try to make it easier and you know, I'm not doing it in

2:38:37 Columbia, Missouri. I'm doing it in New York or LA. You're gonna be there anyways, you know. And also with The particular cohort that you're interviewing. With jets.

2:38:49 if they're like sure, I'll fly to New York and then they can also set up like five other meetings with friends or business associates or fill in the blank, right? Make it easy. But I I think really, man, like This is the turtle of me. I don't like the turtle. You can ask all the people that we have a bunch of mutual close friends. I don't like asking for help.

2:39:07 And I think one of the weird ways that I think I built True friendships. With Some of these people. It's because all day long it's gimme, gimme, gimme. Yeah.

2:39:15 Have never asked Rick for anything. I think one time to crash at his house. That's it. All I want to

2:39:23 To be homies, to be friends. I don't want anything from this and I think I didn't understand because I didn't come from this background. That when you're high profile And you're building these empires, these are all empire builders. All day long. They're just surrounded by people that want something from them.

2:39:38 And I'm just like here, I have this podcast, it might be valuable for you. You want it like I don't want anything from you. And when they tell me, ask me for stuff, I still don't like doing it. So I don't like doing it. It like really hurt me to like Would you be on my show?

2:39:51 Yeah. Yeah. Well I was like all right, I'm gonna ask for something, I'll do this. And not a single person I've asked has said no. Yeah. Well, you love what you do. I mean that is

2:40:01 Essential to Producing the quality that you produce. It's essential for the endurance. to sort of outperform and outlast. Because Podcasting as a whole is just

2:40:15 An elephant graveyard of three to ten episode shows. Yes. Yeah. If you choose something you really like. That you would make because you intrinsically enjoy it, right? If it's an outgrowth of reading the biographies.

2:40:29 Taking the notes and you're like well This is really sort of In terms of additional work for me on top of something I might already be doing. Actually not. Like the majority of the pie.

2:40:41 And You have the fuel of that obsession. You're going to do well, even if it's just for yourself, but certainly with the longevity, you have the competitive advantage of durability. That means a lot coming from you. And everything you've accomplished.

2:40:58 And I think you actually hit to the essence of it. Where it's like I can't sleep after these things. I had to get up the next day when I was in Austin. I think I had a seven AM flight. And I slept maybe three hours'cause like

2:41:12 Jam after jam after gem from Michael Dell. Or like You'll see this in the Todd Graves episode. Dude. We were like the same person. We're the same person. And so we're like we're like spontaneously high fiving this was I'm sure I'm gonna get a lot of like this guy's a dork. Like, hey give me another body, buddy. Like we just like geeking out.

2:41:27 Oh, like Minute details of just being obsessed with His whole thing is like doing one thing and doing it better than anybody else. I remember going From the airport.

2:41:35 Baton Rouge. And I immediately called Sam Hinky, who's the closest thing I have to a mentor. And I was like, I'm in trouble. And he's like, Why? I go, I'm addicted to the doing these things already.

2:41:45 Like I I can't stop. Like this was crazy. We see. I mean, that's how I pick my projects. Largely it's how I pick some of my startups too that I get involved with. If I have what I would call sort of

2:42:01 Good insomnia. Yeah. For at least a few nights in a given week. And then I try to quell it, doesn't matter how much trazadone I take or anything else.

2:42:14 Like I just am so excited by something that my mind is whirring and I can't go to sleep. I'm like, okay, there's probably something there. Also because it seems to be such an energetic unlock. I'm like Even if that one thing doesn't do very well. If I can

2:42:31 kind of create this like nuclear power from that. It's not compartmentalized, it can apply to other things. So I get it. I get it. And I was listening to I don't know how I found it. Actually I was I was going on

2:42:43 I think it's Tom Papa's show. comedian. great interviewer and I was going on his show this is a while ago. And I was doing some homework on my own. listen to an interview he did where he interviewed Joe Rogan.

2:42:55 And I'm paraphrasing here, obviously, but Rogan effectively said he's like, Yeah, I don't really think much about like discipline. Or willpower. He said what I do have though is obsession. And when I find something that I'm obsessed with, when I deep dive, it's like I don't need to worry about discipline. I don't need to worry about willpower.

2:43:16 So it's like finding that thing that you are obsessed by. And so I think you've done that. You've done that. So you you found your lane. Like a lot of people don't find it. They don't find that thing. It's like you wonder if Kobe Bryant were born somewhere and didn't have the chance to pick up basketball. Would it have been something else? Like maybe if you're Michael Jordan, okay, it's baseball or this or that, but

2:43:36 It's like you found your thing. It's kind of amazing. No, I appreciate it. And The way I think about it's like it took me thirty two years to find my path and five and a half Years of struggle before I could even pay my bills. It was like a long time.

2:43:49 Kobe found it. Like imagine finding it at twelve like he did. And knowing. I read the six hundred page biography on him by Roland Lassabee. And Middle school guidance counselor is like he wrote down

2:43:59 What are you gonna do? It's like I'm gonna play in the NBA. It's like you need to pick something else. That's a one in a million shot. He goes, I'm gonna be that one in a million. To be like that so sure. At twelve years old. And this is what goes back to the lack of introspection. Like I had a lot of like

2:44:13 angst and like what is the meaning of life or like what am I doing here? And then once you find your thing, like there's like a Definitely not resting on laurels. But there is like almost like a relief like 'Cause it's not just like finding something you love to do, it's like What is that?

2:44:27 You're like a Japanese encyclopedia. Ika Igga guy? Yeah, it's like uh the intersection of like what you love to do. What you're good at and what's good for the world. Something like that. Yeah. Japan's always good for these

2:44:43 Pithy conceptual words. I think I'm just gonna be blasphemous for you, but like I think travel is generally overrated. After you do it, I I'm not jumping in. After you do it for a while. Because

2:44:55 The problem is like we keep going to all the nice places and like all the nice places are all the same to each other. One thing that Japan blew my mind and why like it's the top of my list now of everywhere I've been and where I'd want to go again. Is because it's the it's one of the few truly distinct cultures. In the world.

2:45:10 Yeah, it's a wild one. They also they're kind of uh A chameleon because they pull so much from other cultures. So it's when it was in isolation, it was certainly kind of an alien environment and then you look at everything they've incorporated.

2:45:25 And in some cases, in the case of say like the Toyota Way, right? Yeah. You have I guess it was I want to say Geming. Yep. Right. Not ignored. But certainly not embraced. In his country of birth.

2:45:37 Gets Adopted. By the Japanese, and you see them do this over and over and over again. So yes, it's a fascinating place. And I would agree with you that especially People who travel in the lap of Doesn't need to be luxury, it could just be comfort.

2:45:53 Like rich person travels the most Boring shit in the world. Same stores, it's just like okay, you're going to the four seasons in twelve different places. Getting on the Wi Fi. Doing whatever it is you would have been doing at home. And then

2:46:08 going to the most expensive meals. It's just not interesting. So I think Anybody wants a great book on The art of long term world travel. If that's of interest, vagabonding by Rolf Potts. I read that because of you. Yeah. The amount of books in my library because of you. It did the same thing with you, they did with all these other people. It's like oh Tim says read it, I read it.

2:46:27 Yeah, and a lot of these books. they're underneath it all, at least in the case of Rolf Potts book, Vagabunning. They're really kind of like for philosophical operating systems. And it's a hat you can try on.

2:46:42 You don't have to wear it forever, but it's like okay. If you only have one jacket to wear, which is like six gear workaholic neglecting family guy. Just expand your wardrobe. You can always put that. jacket back on. You just hang it up for a moment. And similarly I like these books and they Certainly can be business books.

2:46:59 Whether it's Branson. Who is in some ways I mean he took risks, but he's kind of the opposite At least in a lot of capacities to like a Dyson, right? Like he risk mitigates the hell. Yes.

2:47:13 out of his adventures and caps the downside in so many creative ways. Like his airline. Exactly. So like the artistry of deal making for minimizing or capping downside is one of Branson's superpowers, even though the stuff on the Magazine covers back in the day. It was like the madman who's doing X, Y, and Z and has the models and he's Phenomenal Marketer and he's pipeboarding with a naked model on his back. Oh my God. So That looks fun. I mean he's he is also can be a wild man, but I digress. I was just gonna say that these are

2:47:47 Hats that you can put on. to test them out as like philosophical operating systems, which is How I pick a lot of the books. Books, books, books. I mean I was very similar to you when I was a kid. And also I mean all throughout, just living in books.

2:48:02 Living and living in books. It's very common though in these stories. Rockefeller. Abraham Lincoln. Thomas Edison.

2:48:09 Edmund Land. Winston Churchill. The way I say this is like they don't just read, they devour entire shelves. There's multiple examples of like Thomas Edison or Thomas Edison read every single book in the Detroit library. Edwin Lan read every single book on Light.

2:48:22 in Harvard, then dropped out because he didn't think he had anything else to learn, moves to New York City. It's be d I think one of the most beautiful. building this is the one we passed on the way here, New York City Public Library. Read every single book. On light in there.

2:48:34 And then it's like okay, I learned enough now, I can do my experiments. They just our entire shelves. Monster. David Center, what have we not talked about? People will be able to find, of course, the show. David Center dot com. Yep.

2:48:46 That the best website. David Center on all Social channels, Instagram. Podcast app. Founders podcast. Of course, founderspodcast.com. I appreciate you. Like you've included me in your newsletter in the past. Oh yeah. On your blog. Like I read all your shit and I'm like And I didn't even know like it's shocking to me, like when I'm like oh

2:49:04 I'cause it's not like you told me. I was like, what the hell? Yeah. You put out I mean the the obsession. And attention to detail. Doesn't surprise me at all. Like when you told me about going through your

2:49:16 Transcripts by hand. I'm like, Yeah. That makes sense. And I really have my fingers crossed for you. I don't think you need any luck. But that David Sander is as durable as founders podcast.

2:49:30 If anybody can do it, you can do it. So I appreciate it. It means a lot coming from you, yeah. Yeah, congratulations. You've had a huge influence on me. Oh, thanks, man. Long overdue, like I said, I ran into the hallway and grabbed you. I was like, It's been too long for this to feel like coming. Very, very long overdue.

2:49:45 So everybody listening, check out David Senra. I'm excited to check it out. And uh Also know the team at Hurman Lab. Andrew, Rob, those guys are all top tier. So what's coming is going to be

2:50:02 absolutely top notch. So I'm excited to see it. And As always, everybody. We will put links to Anything that came up in this conversation in the show notes, Tim.blog slash podcast, just search Senra.

2:50:14 S E N R A or Essence of Turtle And you'll be able to find everything. And until next time. Just be a bit kinder than is necessary. To others, yes, but also to your self. Thanks for tuning in.

2:50:30 Hey guys, this is Tim again, just one more thing before you take off, and that is Five Bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend? Between one and a half and two million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter called Five Bullet Friday. Easy to sign up, easy to cancel. It is basically a half page that I send out every Friday to share the coolest things I've found or discovered or have started exploring over that week. It's kinda like my diary of cool things. It often includes articles I'm reading, books I'm reading, albums perhaps, gadgets, gizmos, all sorts of tech tricks and so on that get sent to me by my friends, including a lot of podcasts. Guests and these strange esoteric things end up in my field and then I test them and then I share them with you. So if that sounds fun, again, it's very short, a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend, something to think about. If you'd like to try out, just go to Tim.blog slash Friday. Type that into your browser, Tim.blog slash.

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