Advice Line with Michael Preysman of Everlane

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0:32 Hello and welcome to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. You can also send us a voice memo at hibt at id.wondery.com, and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And also don't forget to sign up for my newsletter. It's full of insights and ideas from the world's greatest entrepreneurs. You can sign up for free. Gyras.com. And we'll put all this info in the podcast description.

1:26 Alright. Let's get to it. Joining me this week is Michael Praisman. He's the founder of the clothing retailer Everlane. Michael, uh, welcome back to the show. Great to have you on. Super excited to be here. Thank you for having me. All right, so Michael, today we are gonna talk to founders of a few uh direct to consumer businesses that are, you know, looking to to kinda build buzz and and take their businesses

1:49 to the next level and and I wanted to invite you back specifically for this episode because when you launched Everlane, Uh the the thing that was kind of at the core of your idea was Getting attention by like building buzz like wait lists and Focusing on going viral and creating scarcity, which is now the norm

2:08 With so many products and shoe drops and all this stuff. So many drops, and it's a totally different world than it was fifteen years ago. And and I just launched a new brand again. So I'm I'm right back in the thick of it. Right in it, yeah. No know some of the new tricks and and I'm also baffled that uh You know, learning learning on the go as well.'Cause you always gotta stay young and learn. For sure. Um, but before we get to the callers, Michael, um

2:31 First of all tell tell me a little bit about what what your New ventures. Yeah, for sure. The n the new venture really is um sits In a a huge interest of mine, which is I I really believe we're moving from a world of Um, designer clothes to design our bodies. And you and I were just talking about this. Everybody wants to know how do I live longer, healthier, better. And and with that

2:54 They're paying attention. To what am I putting in my body and and who are the doctors I talk to, et cetera. So Um the first brand that I launched called Magna. So it's an electrolyte brand focused on how do we get

3:07 More of the right nutrients in our body. And through supplementation. And You know so much of this from entrepreneurship. People burn out.

3:15 And they can uh run themselves to the ground and I I like to say you only have one life, but it's actually quite long if you live it right. Um, and so we're we're really out there to inspire people to play the long game. Nice. I love it. All right.

3:29 Michael, a lot, a lot of of entrepreneurs Of course, struggle to get attention. You're just talking about your new venture and it's a different world than when you started Everlane fifteen years ago. Um and and this does d doesn't matter what industry you're in, right? There there's At any point there are like at least a dozen or more people trying to do the same thing.

3:47 Um, you obviously knew that At the time there you know, there were hundreds, thousands of clothing retailers, but you weren't thinking about like initially like comparing your product to anyone else's. Like so how did you think about getting eyes on on that first shirt. You know, when when even then people online had a bunch of different options. Well

4:08 I'll say two things. First of all, it wasn't as many options as we think. I mean, this was the time before even Shopify really existed. Yeah. So we were very early on in the days. It was like Warby Parker had launched, and I know you guys you did a great interview with them. They had launched a year and a half ago, but it was before Glossier, before Harry's. So it was still quieter online. So we had a bit of an advantage that way. Even before Instagram ads. So it's very different. When Everlane started, it was part of a Two decade period that I call the period of authenticity.

4:39 It's the period where people really cared about what where their products came from. Local. Organic. Sustainable. Transparent.

4:48 That was a reaction to the seventies and eighties, which was all about greed. We are now Past that phase and what I call into the attention. Economy. It's

5:01 Gonna be two decades of obsession around attention. It's why we're seeing all the growth around celebrity. It's why we're seeing all the growth around Um how many followers, how many of you a brand that's really hot for like two years and then And then no one's. And so I think we're we're in the smack middle of this. So

5:20 Uh there's two things happening. There are people like you and me and the people who listen to this podcast. That still care about those things. But the bulk of where the attention is and the growth is happening is around this attention economy and celebrities. Now I believe we're still got probably a decade left of that, maybe a little bit less. Um, but it really puts into perspective how do you get attention today.

5:43 And how do you grow your business? Um well lots lots to talk about. Let's bring in our first call because I think, Michael, you have got a l you got I know you got a lot to offer and a lot of great ideas. Um so hello collar, welcome to the show. Please tell us your name. uh where you're calling from and a little bit about your business. Well, hello, Guy and Michael. Thank you so much for having me on the show. I'm a big fan, so this means a lot to me. My name is Todd Weinberg. I am calling from the San Francisco East Bay area.

6:13 Uh, I'm the founder of Kitchen. We are a pickleball inspired lifestyle apparel and accessories brand. Uh Our goal is to really bring a fresh and elevated sense of style and aesthetic. to uh the pickleball space. And we want to be the go to brand that people think of when they

6:32 Wanna look good and feel good both on and off the court. All right, pickleball. I've played it a couple of times. I love it'cause it's like ping pong. Anybody can can basically play. right away. You don't have to it's not like golf where you have to start when you're like f seven. You can but uh remind me, what is kitchen?'C what is the the kitchen is a thing in pickleball, right? Thank you for asking. And actually, uh when I was listening to Michael's interview, I think you had mentioned that a name isn't all that important. But I think in this case the name kitchen is very important for this particular brand. So

7:07 From the the net. To seven feet on each side of the net. That area inside there is called the kitchen. And so that's how we derive the name. Okay, pickleball Um, I n there's been a lot of hype around it, you know

7:20 First of all, what are you selling? Are you selling pickleball rackets? Are you selling pickleballs, those wiffle balls? Like what is the product? Right. So we're mainly focused on apparel. with some s accessories. Um and the brand launched only November of last year. So we're not quite even a year in the public yet. So we're still developing the product line, but currently away from the active wear side and into T shirts. Hoodies. Crew next.

7:47 uh swe you know sweatshirts And lots of hats. Okay. How did you uh I'm assuming you're a pickleball fan and you're thinking, hey,'cause there's golf I mean, there's a whole billion dollar industry around like golf lifestyle brands, right? All these uh companies that basically built these huge businesses

8:06 Uh With like golf shirts and stuff. So I'm thinking you're thinking Hey, there's an opportunity here. How did that how did it come about? Yeah, so so briefly the origin story is that I did not set off to start this company uh it in the way that that it happened. I uh was sort of semi-retired. I um I'm the old guy on the call today, and I have a couple of businesses here in in the East Bay area that were kind of on autopilot, and I decided that I was getting a bit bored. I wanted to do something uh else.

8:38 And I love pickleball. Picked it up during uh Covid? Got super inspired by the game and my kids love it. My f my family plays often. And uh also grew up in the fashion industry, that's another story.

8:51 But I just had an interest in uh Pick a ball apparel. So I just started doing some research and found that this this side, not the active wear side. The active wear side is very crowded. But the lifestyle side, the the more off court side of the business is more Open. And so that's the that's the niche I've been going after. Uh pickleball is an emerging sport. It's the fastest growing sport in the world right now.

9:14 Certainly in the country. And it's just taking off. But Yeah, I think currently six. Sixtin to seventin miljon players. In the US.

9:23 And so we want a piece of that pie. But it's a piece of the lifestyle s slice of the pie. All right. Um And before we get to Michael, tell me the question that you you have for us today.

9:34 What I'm most concerned is a new brand is how to best build community and engagement with my specific demographic. You know, it's a pretty niche space, even still, as popular as pickleball is. It's still quite niche, especially in our demographic, which is really ages let's say twenty-two to thirty-five, is kind of our sweet spot. And how do I reach them best?

9:57 Before we answer Todd's questions, do you have any questions for Todd about the business? The bread? First of all, congratulations always uh It's not for the faint of heart to go into apparel. Um and especially in in this market, it's gotten harder and harder. So

10:12 You better love it. 'Cause otherwise um it's uh it's not worth it. It's quite difficult. Yes. Yeah, and I was gonna ask you, you know Um I guess

10:23 Two questions. Like when you think of what you wanna be when you grow up, as they say. You're like six months You know, call it almost a year old. What do you want to be when you grow up and and what's not working right now for you?

10:37 Okay, I love that question, and there are a few brands out there that really inspire me. And one of them is is a brand called Malbin. They are a really fantastic uh golf lifestyle brand. Yeah. And they've really started to to take off in the m last couple of years. I mean

10:54 You're probably more familiar with a Travis Matthew. Right. Yeah. Travis Matthew has been established for many years. as the eight hundred pound gorilla in the space. I mean you could wear Malbin or Travis Matthew to church on a date night. It's that kind of a vibe. Yeah.

11:09 Okay, cool. And and what do you think's not working for you right now? Or are you struggling? There are a few areas I would say We're really Trying to figure out

11:21 how to resource our materials so that we can build margin, having a difficult time just resourcing Because I want high quality You know, I want to have that Lululemon Alo Quality? at a price point that my demographic can afford, and I'm really struggling, and and that's probably just finding our margins.

11:42 Is probably the biggest struggle right now. So The two most important hires for me in the early days in an apparel brand are Sourcing and production. And creative.

11:53 And I think I think both address The pieces that you're talking about from my perspective. One on the source skin production. Uh getting that right. It's so so critical because if you don't get that right.

12:06 the the challenge with apparel is everything's this iterative cycle. Where you buy, it takes a while to get in. You sell, so unless you can get the supply chain really sh tight and short. It takes six, twelve months to fix something. properly by the time you sell through the inventory.

12:22 Maybe you can do a bit faster. So I just think getting an advisor or getting somebody who can join you or help or consult. If you have the ability that can just make sure that your your pricing, your quality is spot on, and your costing. Um Yes and I

12:38 Had tons of friends who've started streetwear brands, and it's always the ones that are successful have that production nailed from day one. Just really, really. And if you don't It cripples you. Michael, I'm I'm curious. I mean we talked about this um just a couple minutes ago about this idea of that we're in the middle of the attention economy, right? And and we got about another decade of it. And so with a brand like this, um if you can capture attention Then you can

13:04 Presumably you can build momentum. Right. And so I wonder whether um whether a a brand like this, like you you mentioned th th this golf brand. Malbon. I'm I'm looking at their uh I was looking at their website and They are clearly doing tons of collaborations with like all these other brands and

13:23 You know, and this is a big thing. Now it's a golf brand and there's something aspirational about golf, because golf, you know, is expensive and people talk business on a golf course. So the the pickleball community is not exactly a one to one comparison But I wonder and Michael, you may have some thoughts on this. I mean Is there a world where Todd really

13:43 you know, needs to kind of lean in on this kind of You know. collab style uh influencer kind of thing. To really start to build momentum or

13:54 Or or is that just like You know, a money pit just pouring money down. Down the drain. Well, I don't think it's a money pit. I think you hit the nail on the head though with something interesting, which is golf is aspirational. And and the other one is of course tennis is aspirational. Which is where you see brands like Sporty and Rich on the female side.

14:11 Um, and just so many different tennis brands that have been successful. There is a an opportunity for that to happen here, but it's not there yet. I think there's a bit of a How much you want to invest in creative.

14:23 So that you're creating a bit more of an aspiration and pickleball. And I think that could be really interesting. Because that isn't yet owned in the world of pickleball and and is anyone providing that aspirational lifestyle. Right now I would say when I look at kitchen, it's a little bit more Casual.

14:42 Um I look at Malbun that you're talking about. There's some casual, but it is it it It's got a vibe to it. That

14:51 Cool. And Being cool.

14:58 Yeah, right. It takes work. It takes creative execution. And so you know, it's interesting because at Everlane, any time We wanted to drive growth. Correctly. It was always about the product and the creative. That's

15:13 What's beautiful about apparel is the marketing is built in because people want to wear it. And so I would really dial in with your customer and with people who aren't your customer to ask them. What's what's resonating with you and our brand? What would you like to see more of?

15:30 What kind of feeling do you get? Because the thing about apparel is it's all about the feeling. That people have when they put that on and they feel something. And so what are the feelings they get? with the brand kitchen.

15:41 I was just gonna mention that, you know, in the in the last let's call it a year of of launching the company. We came out with some kind of like throw a bunch of stuff on the throw spaghetti on the wall and see what sticks, right? So you're trying different things here and there. But to get to the area to this to the point where I can actually start doing collabs. I feel like that's just a whole other level, you know, that's just it's just it's a whole other ballpark where we're not even close to being there yet. So I'm trying to get to from point A to point B and just trying to build some like build the wave and the critical mass so we can get there. I I think that makes sense. I mean I do think the more you can get

16:16 And this is why I keep coming back to creative, is that the creative was resonating. Figuring out who the influencers are in this space and making sure they're obsessed with your brand is the next level of this. And and you can't pay to play here. They have to love the product and love the brand. And so that's why I keep coming back to If the creative's great

16:36 the influencers will want to wear it. It's like why does Justin Bieber want to wear Malbon? Because it's cool. Because the design's cool, the couple's cool, the vibe's cool. So he feels status in that. And and that's the reality with apparel is If you want to build a lifestyle brand, it needs to be that level of aspiration.

16:55 Which is By the way. Really hard. So I I commend you for uh tr for doing this. Thank you. Thank you. Yes, I'm realizing that.

17:05 Um Tod Congrats a brand is called Kitchen. Um good luck. We're gonna be following you and and uh can't wait to see what what what you make of it. Thank you guys. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. All right, thanks, Conan. Awesome, congrats. Thank you. Awesome. You know, I

17:22 I love pickleball, but a every time I go to the pickleball courts in my neighborhood They're all taken. They're all taken by these like aggressive pickleball players. And uh yeah. I'm like sitting there and waiting and

17:37 No dice. So I know. Well it is a hot sport, but I I you know what I would say is I'm not sure yet it has the aspiration. You know. It's it doesn't have

17:48 the rich history that call that tennis and golf have. That allow it to play in the world of Streetwear and luxury. So I I just think we're a little early, perhaps, and I think he's probably got the right idea, but a little early. Well that that's nothing wrong with that. You were early and look what happened, right? It's true. So we'll give it to him.

18:07 Yeah. Stay with us because after the break we'll talk to another founder working to take their business to the next level. That's after the break. I'm Guy Roz and you're listening to the advice line. Right here on how I built this lab. Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Roz, and my guest today is Michael Praiserman, the founder of the online clothing retailer Everlane. Alright, let's bring our next caller. Hello, welcome to the advice line. Um, please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business.

18:49 Hi Guy, hi Michael, lovely to meet you. My name's Anna Babbage. I'm calling from Bondi in Sydney, Australia. So I'm the co-founder of Earthlings United. We're a kids' clothing brand that's designed to fit for longer. So our intent is to reduce the amount of Ways surrounding kids' clothing. So when you say uh well welcome the show, thank you for calling in. When you say fit longer W what do you mean that it's designed to last longer, to fit them longer?

19:16 So we've really considered the areas where kids grow. So think track style pant that has an extended cuff that you can fold up and down. We have a dress, we call the dress top, that has elastic drawn sides that you can release. So starts out as a dress on like a two, three year old, and then when they get to a full five, six, becomes a top. Um and we have a short that is worn as a pan as a two year old and then it's got a drop crotch so they grow into it and wear as a short four, five, six. Um so we just do two sizes So you only have two sizes and it's designed to fit kids aged

19:52 Timmy Ages yet. Yeah. Two t two to ten. Two to ten years old. So you would just have to buy two sweatshirts and two Whatever, bottoms and you got the whole

20:04 Thing for Eight years. Yep. Don't shop for eight years. Yeah. That's cool. What a cool idea. So now and it's like most it's sort of like sweatpant, like sweat like gear, right? Like

20:17 Sort of. Yeah, it's it's all super comfortable, organic cotton and natural mineral diet. But yeah, we want it to be comfortable. We want kids to want to wear it. I love that you're doing that because I have gotta tell you, and I'm gonna get in trouble because some of my friends listen to the show and they make this stuff. I'm getting increasingly concerned about the amount of plastic I wear. All the performance where I is Plastic.

20:39 Yeah. Plastic, plastic, plastic. It's everywhere. And I'm like, Why am I wearing so much plastic? And you're now you're here tell me you're doing organic cotton and natural dyes? Awesome. You know where I sit with plastic. Uh please. As little of it as possible, please. Um, I love this idea. Want two sizes

20:57 basically the clothing adjust to the kid over time. That's super cool. Uh uh tell me about the idea. How d how'd you come up with it? Well, my brother's my co founder. And we had kids and

21:11 You know, the piles of hammy towns just Pile up and pile up. And it was getting frustrated. But the true inspiration was these pair of pants that my son wore. And they were just a cotton jersey pants. They wore when he was one.

21:26 And then he kept wearing them when he was two, and they started to turn into shorter pants when he was three. And then four they were shorts. And then he wore them to pajamas. He wore them for five years. And so I just thought These pants are amazing. Um why can't all kids clothing evolve with them like these pants? And yeah, that was really the inspiration. I I love it. So okay, when did you guys launch? When did you when did you start? We l we launched three months ago, but we started three years ago working on it. And right now you're selling it direct to consumer.

21:57 Uh through your website. Yes, but we just opened a pop up in Bondi a month ago. In Sydney. Nice. And uh tell me what, uh before I forget to ask you, what what's your question for us today? So the number one request we receive from our customers is to create adults clothing. So nearly every second day on Instagram someone's saying, please create our adults, um, adults line. Um, and so the problem we went out to solve was the fact that kids grow up so quickly and

22:27 you know, create so much waste. But adults don't grow up. They grow out, perhaps, but not grow up. And so it's it's that's N that's not sort of an area we we we wanna w go, you know, look at babies and then older children, but we're never gonna do adults. So how do you know when to pivot and listen to your customer?

22:49 Um, even if it sort of strays from your original business intent. That's interesting. So you've got the the whole idea was to make it so parents wouldn't have to buy a bunch of crap every year and throw it away. But now you've got the parents saying, Hey, I want the stuff for my size. I want this comfortable jersey cotton and and t you know, to We're around the house.

23:10 Michael Praisman, what do you think? I mean, we're w w I mean p the c her customers are demand asking for this, but she's so early in the business. What did she do? Oh my goodness. I mean, first of all I'm with you. What a great idea. I have a I have a seven month old And so as we as we think about all the clothes you gotta buy, it's like

23:29 Every two, three months, new clothes. It's always uh It's just a train of new clothes. And then You're just hoping you have more kids that they can grow into and then eventually you have to give it all away. So Um it's a very cool idea, and what I like about

23:42 what you're doing is the positioning. And I was telling Guy positioning is so important. You have a very clear positioning in the market. And I I guess Ma my question for you is What are adults looking for in your clothes? Like what what are they do they just love how comf they bought it for their kids and they just love how comfortable it is? Like what's the what's the story there?

24:04 They love the natural mineral dye colourways. I think it's also the comfort too, but everyone is drawn to the colours. So that's sort of something our main focus was the fit, you know, when we went out to design these pieces. But we managed to find this factory in Portugal and they've painted this technology to use natural mineral dyes that don't run. And so we sort of got lucky and everyone is obsessed and so drawn by drawn in by these colours um because they're these quite unique muted tones that you can't get. Yeah, they're cool. It's like like lavender and and like these greens I'm seeing and these sort of Blue Dusty Rose.

24:46 So it's the g they just like, Oh my god, I I want that for myself. Um, and I think also there's that whole market of matching with your kids that Um adults. I don't do that, but some some people do that. Yeah. Um and so It's if we were it to introduce Adults.

25:05 Is it still um is a different Sort of. section of the brand or um Uh uh. Yeah, it it's it's hard to know.

25:17 Yeah, I mean what I would say is sometimes we start And and And this was guy guy knows is like we started Everlane, we started selling phone cases, and then it ended up looking like radical transparency. So it's pretty pretty different, right? Um And I think we always had this idea of like at the core reinventing retail and creating a better experience.

25:38 When I look at what you're doing I would just Say I hear the words earthlings united. And I hear better for the planet.

25:47 Yes. And then I see your site. And I see both It's better because we don't have to grow uh buy as much clothes, but I also see it's organic, it's mineral dyed. And it's drossing race and and there's a lot of goodness in that as well. So I think

26:03 At the core for me, I is that Earthlings United, which is such a fun name. And the logo you have. Agree. Uh you know, I totally agree with that, Michael. We did a story maybe a year or two ago Um and it's w worth worth listening to, Anna, with with a brand called Primary. And this their whole point was hey, we wanna make

26:22 Kids basics. that's less expensive, that you know, that is without a label, without a you know And eventually the adults were asking for stuff, and so now they do adult clothing as well. So I I I agree with with Michael here. I'm looking at your website. I see Earthlings United And yeah, it might say, Hey, kids grow up, clothes should too, but but you could also have a window that says

26:46 Hey, we make stuff for grown ups too. You know, I mean I I don't I don't see a whole lot of uh problem because th your name, Earthlings United, doesn't say, Hey, this is just for kids. It's it's like It it it's uh So I

27:04 I think it's a really interesting Yeah, the way I would think about it is do a couple pieces for adults and see how they sell because It might be that the That the notion is that the

27:16 And I again I think about positioning. The positioning becomes The eco friendly first Through the lens of the fabric. And then The kids becomes a subset of that.

27:28 Yeah, I think that's a good idea. Like maybe we test out a couple of sweaters or something and do a smaller run um And that could almost be Um

27:40 uh exclusive or something just just to test the the adult market. Um but I did take a lot of inspiration from listening to your podcast um episode, Michael,'cause I Remember you saying, um and I took this inspiration when I was walking past this site before we opened this pop up'cause I remember you saying, Oh, we never intended to do brick and mortar stores. Um and it's very early days, but I was walking past This um closed down location and I just happened to inquire and So we've kind of taken a bit of a leap by opening this little pop up, but I think

28:15 That's a good example, I guess, of just sort of pivoting in your business. Um Seeing how it goes, I guess. Yeah, I think that you have the opportunity to you can create like a hype machine. You gotta you do a drop. You're gonna do just like have a w we're gonna do a limited drop of adult You know, maybe just do two sizes of adults too or something, you know.

28:38 Two m men sizes, two women's sizes. And uh for now and you just try'em out. You know Performance where really kind of exploded in the last twenty years. Lulu Lemon really was one of the first pioneers. of this and I think a lot of people they love it. They appreciate performance work, but they are looking a lot

28:56 I'm a lot of people are starting to look for Natural organic. Versions of this. Which essentially is what we wore in the seventies and eighties, right? It was just cotton sweat. Like all that's what athletes wore. But I think there's a uh there is an opportunity around that. And I I really think that um

29:16 Trying it as a limited time drop could be really cool. 'Cause it's it it'cause you already have, right? I mean you're already working with manufacturers and suppliers who uh presumably could just make bigger sizes of this stuff. Yeah, I really like that guy what you said about to still do two sizes because we that is another one of um

29:36 uh points of communication, we say just two sizes, and maybe that's how we can carry that into the adults and streamline it. But The one thing I'll tell you is don't get too hung up on your communication. Because that not might not be what the consumer is hearing. What I'm hearing you say is that the consumer's hearing

29:55 These incredible dies. And One of the things I've always seen with founders is these what do I call sacred cows. And the the question is for me, what's the cons what are the sacred cows to the consumer? What do they really care about as it relates to your brand? Is it The ego friendly. Is it

30:14 the quality and the comfort. Is it the fact that you only do two sizes? And And knowing that hierarchy from your consumer allows you to figure out what you're talking about. And and maybe change some things in the future,'cause otherwise you can get stuck.

30:28 Yeah. And and I think that's such an important point, right? And and maybe it might be worthwhile and and you may be doing some of this, but it might be worthwhile to even do a limited survey. You know, ask people what is it about our clothing that was interesting to you and find out is it the two sizes? Is it the fact that it's cotton? Is it the fact that it's natural dyes?'Cause I think, Michael, you're onto something here. I think you might be surprised about what you learn. Yeah, that I think that's really good advice, actually, because you get stuck in your head. You're just like operating this vacuum and um you make all these assumptions. And I think

31:03 Th I think that's a really good idea that that we should conduct a survey'cause I think we'd be quite surprised. Awesome. All right. Well I I really I can't wait to see to see I'm gonna keep checking your website out because if you're making adult size, I'm gonna order one. Um the brand is called Earthlings United. Anna Babbage, thank you so much for calling in. Good luck. Thank you so much. Congratulations. Thanks, Michael. Thanks, Guy. Thank you.

31:26 I wanna go to Bandai Beach right now. I wanna go there now. I wanna be sitting on Bandai Beach. And just Watching the sunset or you know, I don't know if the sunset if it sets there. I can't I don't know the General. But it probably does. Oh it's East Coast. It's East Coast. Of Australia. But the sun sets in the west, but maybe it doesn't in Australia'cause it's on the other side of the w earth. I don't know. I'll do that. I think she's making cool stuff.

31:54 I think it's fun. Totally. Absolutely. Okay, next up after the break, another collar with another business challenge. I'm Guy Raz and we're answering your questions right here on the advice line on how I built this lab.

32:21 Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz, and my guest today is Michael Prezman, the founder of the online clothing retailer Everlane. Alright, let's bring our next caller. Hello, welcome to the advice line. Um please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business. Hey guy, hey Michael, I am calling from British Columbia, Canada. And my business is called Mr. Lid. We make a plastic container with an attached lid so you never lose the lid.

32:49 And tell us your name. Oh, Paul Masia. Paul Musia, Paul, I believe we have met before. Yes, sir. I believe we met at a trade show that I want to speak at. Yes, sir. Yes. Yeah, I remember Mr. Lid. I'm so glad I got a chance to run into you guy.

33:07 Well, so tell us about Mr. Lid. So Mr. Lid is a plastic container attached lid. Never lose the lid. Uh solving one of the biggest frustrations people have in the storage game. Being in my s kitchen and you've seen all the empty lids that I have, the missing orphaned lids. Yes, keep going. Bit of a um Mr. Lid's actually been around since 2011. I am NOT the original founder of Mr. Lid.

33:34 I ended up buying the company just uh over a year ago. Um It's made in Wisconsin, it's a USA made product. Um I bought it because I saw a need for

33:47 Of container company to be fun, to be Trendy. We did that.

33:55 And then people started to write in saying, Hey Love what you guys are doing. Love I've been using Mr. Lid for over ten years. In fact, I still have some of the same containers. Hm. And that's what really prompted us to develop this vision around replacing single use containers so we're very much focused on reusability

34:15 We focus on alternative materials. And that's kinda the the The purpose of the company moving forward. Where are you selling right now?

34:25 Mr Lid dot com and Amazon. Got it. Okay. And tell me a little bit about um the challenges that you face. I mean you you bought this I guess in twenty twenty three. And it w it it was an established brand, but are you I mean, are you facing any challenges? Are you facing any headwinds or or or so far smooth sailing?

34:44 The the response to the brand is is good. We have a lot of work to do, but we have some early signs that Our messaging is working. We're obviously going against some very big Competitors in this space, some longstanding competitors.

34:59 Um, you know, kinda timely with some of the news that came out uh yesterday. Talking about Tupperware, right? Because Tupperware just declared bankruptcy. Correct and if and if I could say I actually sat on Mr. Lid for a while before I purchased it. One of the reasons I bought Mr. Lyd was reading Tupperware's earnings report from Early April

35:19 Um, you know, despite their some of the issues, they had claimed in their report that they were having a hard time connecting with the younger audience. Yes. And that's That set off a light bulb I said, You know what? Well first things first, you gotta understand your audience. So we went out there and we you know, I I pulled and I asked questions and

35:38 I wanted to know what did a younger audience want from a container. And that I thought I thought Mr. Lid had some of those attributes. Paul, I'm looking at your website and I see your bio and it says a longtime tech entrepreneur How did You go from tech to

35:55 Plastic container. Company. So that's right. I was an entrepreneur at the age of sixteen. I was very uh very much engulfed in in tech. I loved Uh you know, I was friends with my janitors at school because I was tinkering in the computer lab.

36:11 Um so I found a passion very early on. Um I kinda grew up in the VC era. Thought I should be able to invest in companies and I tried and I I failed and I'd consult and then I'd tried again and I failed and I'd consult and I went through this cycle of

36:27 Trying to get You know, one startup off uh off the ground at a time and I just remember The last one that we were involved in, I

36:37 I said to myself, I said, I don't know if I want to do this anymore. I want to find boring. Profitable companies. Love it. Where I can where I can add Іно май флер. my personality, my ideas into and grow. So When I had the chance meeting a meeting

36:53 The uh owners of Mr. Lid. When I heard container with a lid attached, I just said, Oh my gosh, this is so simple. I can understand this, everyone can understand this. There wasn't a six month sales cycle. You know, there wasn't it was just oh container with a lid attached. It just made so much sense.

37:10 Yeah, I love that story. It's like why don't more people just buy laundromats or car washes? You know, like these These businesses that just have this recurring Cash flow. Anyway, that's a different conversation. What but Paul, p w tell us what what your question is for us. Well, so I mentioned that baked into our vision statement. Is this idea

37:32 of replacing single use containers. So How can we change consumer behavior and turn Mr Lid Into an accessory. That replaces take out containers.

37:43 Interesting. Okay. That is a a big challenge, right? To create a whole category, or I guess to change consumer behavior, not a category. But um Michael Um we can we can go to Paul's question, but you may have questions of your own for him, so please. Well, yeah, first of all, I I love the idea of buying a business. You know, it's um having being somebody who helps people start them and starting them myself. It's like Why not just

38:08 go out and take something that's already working a little bit and say, Hey, let's let's not create something completely new. Let's build on what's out there. So congrats on that. Um You know. It's a big vision to say let's Create a new category like a water bottle.

38:26 What's What's the use case? Like can you tell us like uh where would we take this? How would we take it? How would we use it when you think about it replacing The world of takeout. Containers. So the first uh the first use case we were going after is

38:41 Uh, very specifically when you go out for you know, lunch when you get some fries with the guys and you got some leftovers. We are trying to encourage the behavior where you reach into your bag and you pull out your liddy. And you say instead of taking home a piece of garbage, you know, i.e. the container that they provide you So you asked the

38:59 The server. Can I please put that in my Mr. Lid? So We're trying to We're trying to take that on first before we take on

39:08 Bigger. uh use cases. It's interesting because I would have thought about this a bit differently, which is It's so hard to change consumer behavior. You know, to get someone to take something like this and put it in their bag and carry it around and then go to the store.

39:23 Whereas And it took a long time for you know, it started with by the way w water bottles that were throw away. To then getting people to Move to

39:33 refillable water bottles that were for performance to then moving towards Stanley's or whatever it is where people carry them all day. So these things take decades to switch. You know, what I instantly start to think about is like how do you get These restaurants or these grocery stores to start packaging things in Mr. Lid like a tote. To say this is a reusable container. This is a Mr. Lid. It's super cool. It's super rad, and you can reuse this forever.

40:03 I love it, Michael. I I I tried Um I feel like A lot of restaurants are so they're very busy. They're focused on their food. They're focused on their experience. When a guy wants to talk to them about containers. They kinda say, Okay, not I'm too I'm too busy. But I do think

40:19 There is a world. Where a can uh A restaurant. Would be excited by the fact that they're able to sell Uh a reusable container.

40:29 They can minimize how many of the singles that they're purchasing. They encourage customers to bring it back possibly for you know, a dollar off their meal, pay for the container. And one of the things we can do with the Mr. Lid is It's called IML, it's baked into the plastic graphics. So now you're putting a container in someone's house.

40:47 With your graphics on it. Reminding them that you're a brand that cares about reusability. The optics of that are very positive. So We do I will say we actually had a really recent development where А скул дистрикт.

41:02 And they're ordering three thousand of our containers. to hand out to uh young uh school children, elementary school children to teach the Benefits of reusability. And so when that occurs, we that's in discussion right now, when that occurs

41:18 We're gonna jump all over that with our press team and Try to encourage other schools. You know, to follow that sort of behavior. I mean that's what gets me excited. There's a couple of sayings and I I can't I can't pin the one for this one. One of them is, you know, education requires tuition and tuition is expensive. And so to get people to

41:38 To re educate them on how to use this product is hard. And and that's where I like all the opportunity you have in the branding and the storytelling and creating this sort of reusable container and making it fun. That I get excited about.

41:51 I love it. I I do too. Yeah. One of the things that I keep where my brain keeps coming back to and Michael, you're gonna deal with this when you're when your little girl is uh in just a few years, which is school lunches. And I know when I'm looking at your website, I know you've got like a Bento Box insert and stuff. But that to me seems like

42:11 a real opportunity like really use fun pops of color And maybe even like a I don't know, maybe they're Maybe Mr. Lid is a character. Maybe Mr. Lid is like a monster, like a friendly monster with a you know, with a lid head or something. Yeah you know, where where it's like a there's a character here

42:33 And he's Mr. Lid, and he's on the side of your Bento Box. I don't know. I love it. I love it. And so Uh Michael.

42:43 Guy, I have three little girls, uh nine, seven and seven. I've got identical twins and nice I could tell you Kids are the biggest lid losers around, so Making the product accessible regardless of if if it's for You know, school age children or adults.

42:59 Having that design or you know, brand affiliation or collab. Uh there's no reason we can't do a collab with like a famous singer or a an FL team. It creates that connection.

43:12 To the product. It's a bit of a a signal. And it's really key to making this something that people actually want to take out. You know, the reason I think it doesn't occur now is There's a bit of a stigma around it or

43:25 It just doesn't look cool. I think um I I think building on what Guy says, I'm like Yeah, where do all these lits go? Mr. Lid can tell the story of where all these lids disappear into the world and

43:35 Why with Mr. Lid you don't have this problem. There's just so many fun stories to tell that way. That could be that could be a really great angle. Because in this world content matters. And so I think less about I know your initial question was how do we change consumer behavior? And I think more about

43:52 Exactly what Guy's saying and you're building on, which is How do you create personality and personalization? That Gets people really excited. Um and connected to this product and a part of their daily life.

44:04 Yeah. I think there's an I I think there's a real opportunity to create some like low You none of you guys have teenage boys or or middle school boys, so You may not know about Skibbity Toilet, but any parent listening knows what I'm talking about, it was teenage children or elementary school.

44:23 This is a very weird phenomenon that started on the internet in the last couple of years. It's a toilet. It's a it's videos of a toilet saying Sibbity toilet, and every kid says this is so weird, but I can see like Mr. Lid, you know, like an animated Mr. Lid kinda thing, like m munching up, you know, all this garbage and plastic or I don't know, something like that. Like stop motion, mister Lid,'cause it's attached to the The thing. Yep.

44:49 I love it guy and and w we're trying to create connection two ways. We want We want the product to be fun. But we also want to let people know how serious we are about reusability. You know, one of my favorite emails is from a young woman Who told me that her family bought Mr. Lib when she was eleven.

45:06 She's taken him to college with her. She's twenty two now. They still work. She keeps one in her car to pay for the coffee, holds her change. Still works like they did on day one, and it just It it makes me so proud that, you know. We can Do something to

45:22 Kinda mitigate how much of that garbage is being generated by throw away containers. I love it. I love it. Um Paul. Good luck. The brand is called Mr. Lid. Uh we're we're gonna show you on, man. Good luck.

45:34 Thanks, Guy. Thanks, Michael. Congrats. Thanks so much. Thank you so much for calling in. Uh yeah. I mean do you know I'm talking about the Skippity toilet? You probably don't. I I do actually I've seen it before, but they need he needs he needs skipity lid. Skippity lid. Skibbity lid.

45:48 Skibbity lid. So cra I've I've One of my kids was saying it like, you know, about a year ago and I just didn't know it's so weird. We live in a weird time. It'll only get weirder. Um, Michael, before I let you go, um uh and I I'm super psyched about your new brand and and it's gonna be awesome. Um

46:06 But when you started this out, you know, your or Everlane back back fifteen years ago If there was something you kinda wish you knew At the time that would have been helpful to you. What What do you think that might be? I'm gonna say

46:20 I'm a marketer. And so when we launched Everlane, it was so much about storytelling. And even when I do things today, it's always the positioning and the storytelling. And What I'll say is that

46:33 What I think is so important if you want to build an enduring brand. Is that when you have phenomenal product That's differentiated. That's high quality. Or the or the lowest price, whatever it is.

46:49 That the product itself Delights people. Boy. It makes marketing's job ten times easier. Yeah.

46:59 Everlane was lucky. In the early days because we were at a we had such a unique marketing position in a world that wasn't as crowded as it is today. And eventually we our product caught up with our marketing.

47:12 But that didn't happen for five or six years. And once we did, that's when the brand went from fifty million to two hundred million. In two in in three years. And so I think I

47:24 I go back to The product Has to be amazing. And if the product's amazing. It'll go a very long way.

47:31 Michael Prisman, thanks so much. Thank you. It's always fun. It's great having you back on. And by the way, if you if you haven't heard uh Michael's original How I Built This Episode, you've gotta go back and check it out. You can find a link to it in the podcast description. And here is one of my favorite moments from that interview. So

47:47 The strangest thing you would never expect if you were to build a brand today. And you start with a T shirt, your next product would might be denim. Our next product was literally ties and bow ties. Ties and bow ties. Ties and bow ties.

48:01 It just seems like a n like a kind of a just throwing a dart at a dartboard. Let's do bow ties. It is weird, yeah. We didn't have a lot of connections and it was We would have to wait. six to twelve months to be able to launch

48:14 A sweatshirt. And our alternative was we had a Guy that could make ties and bow ties in two months. And how did those do? We never made ties and bow ties again.

48:26 Let's just put it that way. Thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free at gyroz.com. Each week it's packed with tons of insights from entrepreneurs and my own observations and experiences, interviewing some of the greatest entrepreneurs ever. And if you're working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us about your business, the issues, or questions you'd like help with. And hopefully we can help you with them and make sure to tell us how to reach you.

49:01 You can send us a voice memo at hibt at id.wondery.com or call us at 1800-433-1298 and leave a message there, and we'll put all this in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Carrie Thomson with music composed by Ramptina Rablui. It was edit by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Robert Rodriguez. Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Chris Massini, Carla Esteves, Elaine Coates, JC Howard, Catherine Seifer, Devin Schwartz, Neva Grant, and Sam Paulson. I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening to the advice line on how I built this lab.

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