1374: Safety Compromised by Husband, Traumatized | Feedback Friday

0:03 Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the Vegan Torero, waving and whipping this red cape of wisdom around the charging bull of your most volatile life drama, Gabriel Masrahi. Nice and Spain specific. I love it. You know how we do, Olay. On the Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker, and during the week we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, arms dealers, rocket scientists, legendary actors. This week we had Professor Sonia Lubomirsky on how love is formed in the mind. How to be loved more, how we can improve our relationships to be more loved and loving in general. It's way less woo woo than it sounds I promise. Y'all know me. This one is very rooted in real science. Super interesting and fun conversation. We also did a skeptical Sunday last Sunday on milk. On Fridays, though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, and get dragged around the world behind the sputtering jalopy of Gabe's vagabond life. A gentle drag. A loving drag. It feels a little bit like whiplash to me, my guy. I don't know what it's like for you, but must be nice up there in that air conditioned car. Oh, you think I have air conditioning?

1:15 In the old world? In Europe? Oh that's right. That's right. A C in Europe. No, son. A C in Europe is crack that oddly shaped window over there and pipe down. And we're back to our favorite topic. Windows in Europe. Right. Yeah. Al also that during a generational heat wave has been brutal. They say generational heat wave, but here's the thing. I looked it up. The last one there there's been like five since two thousand and three, maybe more. So at some point it's like hey, this does happen. All the time and tens of thousands of people die from it. Yeah, I guess it's not generational anymore if it just happens every summer. This is just summer. No, now it's completely predictable and happens all the time. But now at least we know why you're shiny. You're a little shiny. I'm a little it's the sheen of joy, my friend. It is the sheen of living. The sheen of heat stroke, more like Yeah. But it ain't living if you're not almost maybe

2:04 Kind of dying a little bit. Yeah. Those days are behind me. I've almost uh died twice and I've hit my almost a dying quota. You fell off, man. I can't even look at you. I know. I can't even deal with you. How sad that I finally got to a point where being kidnapped in various quasi failed states no longer seemed worth it, and staying alive from my family became more important. So all right. Where are you barely hanging on? This week. Producer Jace here, how you doing today?

2:29 If you'd like to track down the end of Gabe's Spanish hippie countryside misadventures like a wild boar You can train your bow and arrow to timestamp sixteen minutes and twenty seconds. Enjoy the show. I am like an hour and a half outside of Madrid in shoot. Actually I don't know the name of this place. They told me in the car, but I forgot and I haven't looked at Google Maps. That's promising. That'll come in hand. We'll call Liam Neeson. I don't know. He's somewhere in near Madrid. Yeah. Ninety minutes from Madrid, guys. It's not that hard. To search the whole radius.

3:03 Listen for the sound of Natalia La Fourcade playing from a Bose Bluetooth speaker and you'll find me. Ninety minutes by car, by plane. I don't know. I took a nap on the way and I woke up here. Survival instincts of a potato this time. No, by uh by car. By car. So I'm at my friend Ada's brother's house. I've told you about Ata before. She's like the Spanish Witch who calls you and invites you to weird places with no internet. The one. The sorceress herself. Yes. Dear friend of mine, awesome lady. So her family has this small ranch in the countryside and She invited her two best friends, Anna and Issa. Two other characters, by the way, I can't even

3:41 I don't have time really to tell you about these people. I've been staying with Issa in Madrid in her childhood home. It's this Small apartment in a quiet suburb kinda, which has been really lovely. And Anna lives in Gran Canaria, but she's visiting for a week. Anna, funny story, I met her in Peru on the same trip I met that guy Sebastian. Remember him, the whose car I almost died. Yeah. Just to stitch those two plot lines up. That's how that connects. Yeah. I mean I'm barely following this, but wow, I can sort of see the red string on the conspiracy map, John Nashville. As I

4:13 Chain smoke trying to explain this meme exactly. Yeah, it all fits somehow. Anna is the reason that a lot of cool things have happened in my life, which is really funny because She famously does not like to get involved in things. Okay. Too much. Her words, not mine. This is a lady who By your own admission, does not ask too many questions and for I believe ten years slept in a hammock every night. But she's the linchpin of this whole operation. My back hurts just thinking about that. She says she prefers it. Oh And Isai met three years ago next to the Madura at a retreat in the middle of nowhere.

4:44 And she is just A hyperactive Utterly disinhibited. Very free, nonstop monologuing. Partially deaf shape shifting.

4:54 Clown. That's the best way I can describe it. Okay. Uh what the actual hell. Anyway, I've never heard those words strung together before, but Interesting career. Right, exactly. It's a bunch of those people. No, but I love these friends. When I hang out with them I feel like I'm in a Pedro El Motovar movie. If it were somehow written by Hunter S. Thompson. Yes, like Penelope Cruise plays her and they dose the onset catering with acid. Yes. Exactly. Somehow even weirder than that, but yeah, that's a nice way to put it. And I should add

5:27 Incredibly loving, incredibly generous, just super sweet, open human beings. Who have taught me to be more that way. And that's why I love them. I feel very lucky to know these people. These ladies Are kinda my bridge to another world. Another way of Being

5:44 Which I as uh Semi nomadic American. Need. Desperately. Yeah. I know the feeling. I get I have a few friends like that too. They're not wishes or whatever. I mean surprise, surprise, but uh

5:54 They're on a totally different frequency from me and they come from a different world and they have different concerns. And that's crucial. And it's like, hey man, do you want to go Jump off. uh the Burge Khalifa and learn how to bass jump. And I'm like, I don't think you learned that one by doing that. What's the equivalent of the ski lodge when people are base jumping, where I just watch them plunge to their death with a cocktail in my hand? I'm like I I'm that like I'll see you at the after party. Sign me up for the

6:21 For the Opre bunge. Yeah, I was gonna say Opre base Jump. Uh I'll be there with my matching Christmas socks. So funny. Well you get it. Exactly. So anyway, that's how I ended up on this ranch, which is a very beautiful place. It kinda looks like Southern California. Weirdly, rolling hills, lots of Beautiful trees, big valleys, but like You'll drive past a medieval castle on your way in. Honestly, that sounds sweet. Actually, I kinda think you would hate it, I have to say. And I'm gonna go ahead and guess. That it's not going great. No, no, no. You would love the castle. It's just yeah, the internet here is not ideal. That's a hard no from me. Yeah. I need to be able to stream beef season two and upload three gigs of audio at the same time without sweating. I'm shocked that we're pulling off this episode, to be honest. Although we made it work in Bayo, which was way dicier than rural Spain, which is very well connected, so I don't know. If we can

7:15 Confía na Bahia, I think we can Confía na España. Sure, whatever you just said. Trust in Bahia, trust in Spain, I guess. Trust in Movistar, I guess. That Yeah, well look. So far so good. Let's not jinx it. What I did not know until I got here was There is no running water on this ranch. Uh so the shine your your shininess is there to stay for a few days. So gross, but might yes, unfortunately, yes. turned on the faucets when I got in, nothing came out. I was like oh guys, did you is there some is the bathroom No there's no running water. Cool. Okay they live in this house first of all. But what they ha why

7:53 Have faucets. If there's no water. It's just like hey, maybe one day we're gonna have water and then we're gonna be totally ready'cause we have Faucets all over that. This is like getting Ethernet hardwired into your home, but you just don't have internet at home. Why would you do that? They are still building this house, which is

8:10 is itself a fascinating thing because her brother built it himself using this technique called superadobe. Have you heard this? Sounds like a hot sauce brand. Yes. He's building a house using the Chipotle method. The Chipotle technique. No, it's an eco friendly building method that uses these Long bags filled with damp earth, so the earth that you dig up to build the house? you then apparently use to build the actual house and then you stack it in these layers and then you bind the layers together with Barbed wire and that forms the structure. Interesting. I think I've read about this in Architectural Digest, of course, which I read regularly. I'm gonna guess. That's I mean, if I ever saw anything like that, that would be where it was. Or or highlights for children magazine, but I don't think they cover Chipotle architecture. No. Super Adobe. Super Adobe. Not Chipotle.

8:56 Adobe quesadilla, whatever. Um The these people are you know the weirdest people, myself included, I guess. I love That thank you for that compliment. So when you build a house this way, the walls become super strong. This is fascinating, actually. I didn't know anything about this. The walls become super strong. And apparently very safe, like they can withstand earthquakes and floods and all of that, and they regulate the temperature well in the heat and in the cold.

9:21 It also looks cool'cause it creates this curved dome shape, so the roof kinda looks like an ice cream cone. It's very trippy. It sounds like those houses you see in New Mexico. Like Hank's house in Breaking Bad kinda. Less bougie than that, but close. Yeah. It kinda looks like a house where you'd have a writer's retreat near Taos or something. Sedona. It's like a hippie rustic version of that, yes. But even cruder and more DIY. But also it has solar panels and a pool on the property. I posted some pictures of that. So it's it's legit. There's just no water. So yeah, they're still very much building the house, but

9:53 They're also living in the house part time while they build it. Which Now that I think about it. A great metaphor for A lot of people's lives, certainly my life right now. Yeah, just in process, eh? And still somehow perfectly at home. But so no water, no running water, but faucets that work. That's right. What's crazy to me is they're like, Yeah, we should have guests to our house that has no water. Without warning them.

10:16 Like I thought somebody would have given me a You don't need water you don't you don't need like running water to be comfortable, do you? No, they just like made it sound like hey, we're having they're having like ten, twelve people over to stay at the house. Like nobody was I mean, they must have already I think they all knew, but they assumed I knew, but why would I know? I've never been there. But they do have a well on the property and so they filled this like Trash bin. Full of water. And from that bin they fill buckets.

10:43 And from those buckets they fill the sink to do dishes. They fill more buckets for the bathroom. So they're just how pouring water down the toilet. I used to have to do that at my Cottage growing up, like with this crappy cabin that had nothing. Wait, the one that you hate? Yeah. Yeah, and you you could you had to flush by dumping a bucket down the toilet. So it was if obvious it was like hey, if it's yellow let it metal, and if it's Brown. Dump a bucket down. Fuss it down. Yeah. That's it.

11:07 Yeah, it's a real throwback. Little Casita on the prairie, bro. That is my nightmare. Yeah. Yeah. I know how much you hate that cottage. I forgot about that. The fact that but this is funny. You would hate to be here, right?

11:21 So the fact that you are the princess now. And I'm the hippie sharing a waterless toilet with eight people is just such a nice moment for me. You're getting too old for this shit. Exactly. I feel like I'm only getting old enough now for this shit. Which weirdly feels like getting younger. I don't know why. Yeah, that's cool, man. I look I dig it. It w it wouldn't be the Airbnb I'd choose for the Spanish country getaway with the friend group, but hats off to them for building an ice cream cone house with no water. No plumbing. Just to paint you a little bit more of a picture. Uh they also have two beautiful white horses that act like dogs. Like they're so friendly. Like golden retriever horses. If you put a what is

11:57 like a horn on them, they would look like unicorns. And up the hill are these cows. Is that all horses, though? No, but these are like white like these are like majestic white horses. They're like mythical beasts on this piece of land. It's wild. And uh up the hill there are these cows that every so often just start going like Haw Shrieking and hawking and everybody will be in the middle of a conversation and when they start everybody just pipes down. They're like oh Gotta wait for these guys to finish talking. And then there are these believe our wild boar.

12:32 Yeah. Yeah. Which I have to say, despite how aggressive they are, much to my dismay, Ada's brother hunts with a literal bow and arrow in the indigenous style. And then butchers himself or his mom to cook for family dinners. So That's not fun. Okay, that's cool. So I'd be hanging out with this guy and be like sh teach me how to kill a giant pig giant deadly potentially pig. With a bow and arrow. That sounds interesting. Anyway, so I assume you bring this up constantly and lecture everyone on how wrong it is while while they eat their delicious meal. Obviously.

13:05 That's my style. You know, I just go go around lecturing Spaniards about going vegan. Hell no. I just let that it's fine. You're the only one with no water. By the way, everyone else has water. This is how they get back at you. No, uh, you're vegan? Use that bathroom. You get that bathroom. Sorry, it's a bucket toilet. No, the faucet doesn't work. Look, it's a circle of life, man. I mean, I'm afraid so. Not not my life, but Most life, I have to acknowledge. But wild boar are actually pretty dangerous, especially if they're big, which they usually are. I mean these don't like run away when they see you most of the time, right? That's what they say. Yeah. You kind of have to hunt them unless you're just like, No, it's cool if they kill my pets and small children. That's what they say, so I'm inclined to believe them. Also, I don't think they have impossible bore. No vegan substitute for that one.

13:55 Is that hard for you to watch, seriously?'Cause I mean it is a little gross watching an animal get butchered is kind of objectively gross if you're not really used to it. If I had to watch it be butchered, it would be an experience and it would be a little hard, but L I didn't have to watch them prepare it. It was just that was what was for dinner. So I think this operation was completed long before I arrived. But yeah, we just all sat at the dinner table. They're eating their Habile stew and I sat there with my my pasta primavera and my nutritional yeast with veggies grown in their garden, which are amazing. And then yeah, later I go cry in the bathroom with no water. Yeah, that sounds about right. Just don't don't put the Kleenex down the toilet. Nope, trash bin only. That was also a thing. Yeah, you have to be careful with that. The only working plumbing in this house was my eyes after I watched them go to town on this wild boy. Maybe if you cry enough

14:43 They can do the dishes without somebody falling down a well. See, everybody lives. Everybody in the tears. Circle of life. Wow, these dishes are shiny and streak free. Yeah, these are all Gabe's tears that we've collected for the past three days. Gabe had a meltdown in the super Adobo, so yeah. Oh God. Freaking vegan, so sanctimonious. All right, so what a place so there's no showers, obviously. You just go swimming, is that the move? Yep. Just the yeah. That's right. Uh

15:12 And you can imagine my conflict around getting into that water just to get in the w I went in once and I was like oh Yeah, they don't chlorinate that thing, right? Little European they did, they did. Um little Europeans. And that, my friends, is how I met Giardia. The spin off that didn't go ahead at NBC. For two and a half days this is totally doable and really very beautiful. The mountains, the sunset, the stars at night. Or just next level. Well that's why people live out there.

15:46 Clearly. So I flow. No, factually incorrect. You lie stagnant like a trash can full of muddy ranch water that you're gonna use later to clean all of your dishes and clothes. It's Buddhism, guys. It's the lotus flower, you know. All right, you grimy lotus flower. I'm glad your travels continue to deliver. R I P your normally rigorous hygiene rituals, but uh Yeah. LOL to your misadventures. What do you say we grab our bow and arrow? And hunt down some

16:12 Life drama. Let's do it. Let's do it. Before we do that, let's take a quick break, give you a chance to walk off that nutritional yeast. And give me a chance to Google El Pollo Loco style architecture. And various species of wild Spanish boar. Then we'll dive into your letters. We'll be right back.

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19:07 All right, what's the first thing out of the mailbag? Hi, Jordan and Gabe. My husband and I have been married for nineteen years and have two boys ages eleven and thirteen. He served in the Australian Army where he participated in a Mefliquin trial before active service. So Mefliquin for anyone who doesn't know is an old malaria medication. Afterward he struggled with anger and later served as a police officer where he experienced significant trauma.

19:33 He was eventually diagnosed with PTSD and depression. Damn that's meffed up. No, Gabe if I that's so mean. I'm so sorry, folks, but but Gabe, pause. You said you looked into this, right? This is a real thing. Apparently, yeah. So quick history, kind of interesting. Mephloquin was actually developed by the US Army in the nineteen sixties, and it was tested on US military personnel before it was approved by the FDA. And in the original pre approval trials during the seventies and the eighties, Mefliquin appeared effective against chloroquine resistant malaria and a few common side effects were what you would expect normally, like nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, sleep disturbances. vivid dreams, stuff like that. But then when they started giving it to more people

20:14 they realized that there were these psychiatric side effects. So insomnia, anxiety, irritability, depression. And then even more serious ones like paranoia, psychosis, and apparently in some people suicidal ideation. Wow. I've always heard these malaria drugs give you crazy dreams, and I didn't know they could low key What's really wild is that the US, the UK and Canadian and Australian militaries all used Meflin extensively, especially in the nineties and early two thousands, and that population reported a lot of dizziness. Balance problems, cognitive difficulties, anxiety, depression, but also PTSD like symptoms. That is so interesting and terrible. But we're okay, so we're talking about military service people, right? So how do they

21:01 No, it was the drug doing that and not PTSD from being in combat. For example. So that's part of the challenge. Apparently it was hard to establish real causation,'cause some doctors argue that in some people meflquin toxicity might have contributed to or just been mistaken for PTSD or like a traumatic brain injury. But I guess there were enough concerns that a lot of militaries restricted the use of this drug and they moved to alternatives like malarone. Which I think is the most common anti malarial drug now. And in twenty eighteen the Australian Senate opened a formal inquiry into Whether soldiers were adequately informed during the trials and

21:38 how adverse reactions were monitored and whether long term injuries were recognized and all of that. And so The ADF now uses Meflin only rarely, And typically only when other anti malarials are unsuitable and the Department of Veterans Affair created support programs apparently for veterans concerned about past Mephliquin exposure, which means they're saying we know this was a problem. Wow, okay, that is super sad. So her husband has been through a lot, potentially some adverse effects from this malaria drug trial.

22:07 And then he becomes a cop and experiences some traumatic stuff. There, man, this guy's been through the ringer. Poor guy. In twenty twenty three, he suddenly stopped his meds. He experienced a serious mental health crisis, ended up spend around sixty thousand Australian dollars on domain names, that's a little over forty thousand dollars US. All of which led to an involuntary psychiatric omission. Okay. This is really tragic. But I I just gotta say, skipping your meds and then buying Or four hundred dot net domains. That's one of the more unusual symptoms we've heard about on the show. It's almost a little funny, except for the whole losing sixty grand part. That part is not funny at all. Does not, but also like so how'd you know you were manic again? Well I stayed up till three AM going absolutely ham on GoDaddy dot com. I mean

22:53 That's when you know there's a problem. Why do you want to up your Lexapro? Well, I drain my four oh one K to buy chuckleporn dot EDU. Got it. Chuckleporn.edu. Let's go up to uh What do you say, twenty milligrams? I think twenty milligrams should do it. Yeah. Uh okay. So she goes on.

23:11 Later he came off his medication gradually under psychiatric supervision because he felt emotionally numb and wanted to feel like himself again. Oh boy. After all that Seems risky. I'm glad he did it with a psychiatrist input, but yeah, that's a big decision. Yeah, better check your go daddy, Bill. That's all I'm saying. Unfortunately, he now has very little trust in his psychiatrist.

23:34 Over the years I've watched what feels like a gradual personality shift in my husband. He has become intensely distrustful of institutions. He's strongly anti government. Anti-AI, anti-monarchy, anti-police. anti pharmaceutical companies and anti department of veterans affairs. These topics dominate most conversations, and he genuinely believes he's simply telling uncomfortable truths.

23:59 He's also recently become a Buddhist. Man, this is intense. So he's on one. And there might be some psychiatric stuff at play here. Fascinating that he identifies as a Buddhist on top of holding all of these other positions, like I believe that all the powers that be are out to hurt me, but also, you know, there is no self, and thoughts are impermanent, so Yeah, yeah. And attaching to them creates suffering. I mean, seriously, what a interesting wrinkle that is. But my main concern is what this is doing to our family. I'm worried about friends and relatives pulling away because every interaction becomes a rant. I'm worried about the examples our boys are seeing. I want them to grow up believing that healthy relationships involve curiosity, joy, emotional safety. And mutual respect.

24:43 Not constant anger, distrust. And conflict. The hardest part is that I still have enormous compassion for my husband. He's been through experiences I can't imagine. Leaving feels like abandoning someone.

24:57 whose life has been shaped by trauma. Yeah, I get that, of course. This is really hard. I'm I'm just thinking about his wife and his kids. Just imagine watching your dad Slowly What's that word decompensate every single day? And then ranting about, I don't know, the bureau of land management or whatever at the dinner table that's just intense and sad. Then staying sometimes feels like I'm teaching my children that it's normal to remain in a relationship where you feel increasingly lonely and emotionally disconnected.

25:27 How do you know when compassion Become self sacrifice. How do you balance supporting someone with significant trauma while also protecting yourself and your children? If you were in my position, What questions would you be asking yourself?

25:40 before deciding whether to stay or leave. Signed Looking for a New Credo. to guide my approach to this tricky ego. After my husband decided to veto. His meds.

25:51 After fighting off the mosquitoes. I'm so deeply sorry that your husband has been through all these difficult experiences. The malaria drug trial, whether it explains most of his struggles or not. Man, it's a tough break. I'm sure they were just like, Hey, look, we're sending you to Papua New Guinea You're probably gonna get malaria there, but the good news there's a drug available for it. They're testing it. It's kinda your only option. You in or what? And I'm sure most soldiers were like, Yeah, all right, everyone's doing it, fine. Dot dot dot. You're having night terrors about mosquitoes the size of buildings and you think the army's out to get you. I mean it's just it's terrible. And then you become a cop and like

26:24 I mean what happened to him? Did he have to like pull his weapon on somebody or something? And then something terrible happened and then the trauma just compounds this poor guy. Yeah, you watch somebody get stabbed or whatever, or you come to a the scene of a crime, those are hideous. It's really sad. And then he goes on medication But he feels like the medication turns him into a zombie and he doesn't want that. And so the poor guy's been through a lot. But I have to say he's also put himself and now his whole family through even more, unfortunately, by going off of the medication. So like Which one does he want? Look, I can only imagine how hard it is not to feel like yourself when you're medicated. That sucks. I I couldn't work that way. Think about it. Think about it. If I was a different person, it would be very hard for me to do this show.

27:04 But then you to go off the meds on your own, though? It's reckless, right? And then you go off again knowing what happened to you last time. Even if it was with your psychiatrist guidance, I don't know. Even more reckless, I think. Yeah. Well risky at the very least. I mean, maybe he knew exactly what he was doing and the risk was worth the reward at the time, and the reward is more life and more authenticity, and you I don't know, you feel alive more. I don't know. But it sounds like life and authenticity to him. Looks like monologuing about how every institution is corrupt at the dinner table and driving everybody in your family away, which must be very unsettling.

27:39 And unpleasant for all of his family and friends, and even more isolating for him. So I don't know if that's a good trade, man. I find this really interesting though, because this guy might come by this cynical view of institutions Honestly, you know, several powerful institutions really let him down. The pharmaceutical industry created an experimental drug that messed with him. The army Probably encouraged, maybe even forced him to participate in the drug trial. The Department of Veterans Affairs might not be doing much for him. I suppose we don't know the facts there.

28:08 But you know, also law enforcement, just one organ of the government exposed him to even more trauma and then his psychiatrist offered drugs that he feels didn't ultimately help him. So you make a fair point. His life experience has taught him that a lot of institutions can really hurt you. They can really let you down. So he might not be entirely off base there. He might not be, you know, he's not totally crazy, quote unquote. But also and and yeah. He does sound a little unhinged, or the hinges are loose in any case. These are not Calm, measured conversations by the sound of it. She said these rants dominate most conversations. That's not good. There's a difference between passionately talking about how flawed institutions are and Railing against I can at the Christmas dinner table. I can, right. I love the the the idea that this guy's beef with the nonprofit that governs domain names in addition to like I don't know the the taxation.

28:58 I don't know why I thought he would be angry at ICANN, but Bro is probably still trying to get reimbursed for buying Mephliquin. That's true. Here's the thing. She said he's constantly angry, distrustful. full of conflict. So it does sound like there's something obsessive and dysregulated about all of this. All that to say, and all jokes aside, truly, I mean y your husband pulled some really crappy cards. He's made some questionable decisions based on those cards.

29:24 And I'm very sorry about all of that, and obviously right now, I'm most sorry for you and your kids. Because it's gotta be really hard to watch a spouse or parent devolve like this. Over a period of time. It is heartbreaking and it's terrifying and it's bizarre. And it's confusing. Like what do I do? Yes, it's very confusing. So let's feel our way through that. When does compassion

29:46 Becomes self sacrifice. So to be super literal for a moment, compassion is identifying with someone's pain. wanting them to get better. Right, sympathy, maybe even empathy plus action. Plus a real ability and effort to achieve that help.

30:01 Сел сакрифайс I mean that's when you put someone else's needs above your own, you pay a significant price for that. And over a long period of time. Like helping somebody for three or six months till they get back on their feet. Hey. That's different from propping someone else up.

30:14 At your own expense. for years or even decades on end. I would also say that compassion for her husband can exist alongside compassion for herself, but self-sacrifice might begin where her self compassion, her healthy self-regard no longer feels like it fits in the equation. Good ad. Yeah. And there's also something in here about taking on her husband's problems as her own. when he won't take them as seriously. Compassion probably says I care about your suffering, self sacrifice might say something like Your suffering has to become mine, and maybe I'm the only one recognizing this as suffering. You see it differently. Which implies a boundaries piece too, yeah. I mean when you're being truly compassionate, I think you can say, I'm offering you this help, and that help has its limits. And those limits are I don't know what, do you think?

31:00 That's the question, right?'Cause every couple in every situation is different and every person has a different threshold for what's quote unquote too much for what they owe a spouse in the first place and all of that. So maybe a good question for her is What other thoughts or feelings does your compassion come with? Cause those are probably good clues. For sure, thoughts, feelings, and her motivations for sticking around when he's not getting better, I would say, which she's calling compassion, and I think her compassion for her husband is genuine. That is fundamentally motivated by love for him, right? By genuine love and concern for him.

31:30 a desire to see him get well, but I do wonder if there are maybe a few other motivations in the mix. I have to say guilt might be one of them. I do hear some guilt in her letter or some proto guilt just for thinking about leaving. pretty severe mental health crisis largely on his own, and so she might be thinking You know, what does that say about my commitment to him if I just up and leave? What about the duty I have to care for him in sickness and in health and whatever other promises we made? All of that weighs.

32:04 Heavily on her, I imagine. So I totally get that. The guilt The What was that word we love again? The proleptic. Guilt. is probably overwhelming. But at what point

32:14 With a spouse do you go My concern for you is genuine, my love for you is real, and my obligation to you can't be limitless, it can't be unbounded. It can't be unqualified. You need to step up and take care of yourself too. So what you're saying is if he continues like this, does she really need to feel guilty about leaving or even just pulling back a little bit and her support? Right. Basically, in sickness and in health, yeah, sure, wonderful, but this isn't cancer, you know, this is his mental health. For which he could be medicated.

32:42 for which he could go to therapy or a support group. This is not a disease he has no control over. Even if it were something he had zero control over, there's still a realistic limit to what she can do for him. Oh man, we're in interesting territory now because how do you defero control? You know, I get your point entirely, but I think in his mind he's like, I can't trust any of these institutions. I can't go back to my Psychiatrist, I don't even know if I believe that this is a mental illness. I think I'm seeing things clearly and all of you are deluded, which is of course the bind that most

33:13 And I feel a little weird saying this, but what most sane people come up against when they're dealing with people who are unstable. So I agree with your point in principle and sometimes this is very hard to embrace. But that's kinda why I brought this up, because the guilt might be driving a lot of this. And there might be a few other motivations too. I think one of them might be fear. Fear of what might happen to him if she separates, fear of how he might feel about her.

33:38 fear of what might happen with the kids, what they're gonna make of all this, which This is another reason I really feel for her because it sounds like she's afraid either way. She's afraid of what she is teaching their sons if she sticks around. Basically this is what love should look like.

33:54 And she's afraid of what she would be teaching them if she left, that it's okay to abandon somebody who has really struggled in his life and is really struggling now. Yeah, I think we need to double click on that for a minute. It's important, yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's a huge part of her story, w what all this is doing to their kids. Who how old are they again? Eleven and thirteen. Yeah. Young. Young. Yes. Very tender ages. And I am sure having this father in the home is having quite an impact on them. If he gets worse he might leave a real negative mark on them. So the stakes are pretty high. These are not grown children. who are dealing

34:27 Serious discomfort. These are kids who are impressionable and getting their model for current relationships right now. She has a responsibility to them as well, not just to her husband. I think she knows that. Well yeah, absolutely. It's it look, again, they're not in college. He went off his meds. They're living alone in another city. That would be a huge event in their lives for sure, but it's different. They're so young. that they're probably getting scared by dad these days.

34:52 So I really appreciate that she grasps these implications. And it's hard. I I think I would also be very torn. But I guess my thought is If you agree that you have a responsibility to your kids That is equal, if not greater, than the one you have to your husband. because they're young, they depend on you, and because they're your kids, a responsibility to create as safe and harmonious a home as possible for them.

35:14 And to again, hopefully give them the best possible example of what relationships are supposed to look like, then I think you need to at least take stock of how they are experiencing all this. You didn't share a lot of detail about that. I'm speculating, but obviously they're seeing some of this behavior and it's landing in some way. So whether you stay or you leave There's gonna be a cost and there's no scenario where they don't experience some kind of pain.

35:37 Some kind of instability, sadly. So one way to look at this is Which option. creates the least amount of pain and instability for the kids. Another way to look at this is

35:47 What's more important, the example I'm setting for them? Or what seems to be my obligation to my husband. These are really nice questions. These are very big questions, and I'm gonna be honest, I do not know the answer to them, but I believe if she can answer them, she might start to know what to do here. Gabe, I I think a lot of people would say, look, the red line, the point at which you gotta leave is if he ever becomes aggressive or abusive with her or with the kids, but I actually kinda feel Like the red line should be Before that.

36:14 Because he's already compromising them. financially emotionally, there's a lot of notches on this spectrum and your red line It can't be something you find out at two o'clock in the morning during a heated moment. You know, I can't tell her, Hey, for sure leave him when he does X, but I think she needs to face the question

36:32 Does he seem to have any hope of getting better and is staying in this marriage still responsible to me and my kids? If things continue to get worse, yeah. It might also be good to think about this lesson or this message that you feel you're sending to your children, if you stay. You seem to feel that you'll be teaching them that relationships should involve chaos, danger unhappiness, conflict. I think you're implying that if you leave you would be teaching them that it's okay to ditch a spouse in need. But if that's how you feel, and I know I'm reading between the lines a little bit. Then I would invite you to consider if that's truly the message you would be sending them.

37:07 If you do decide to leave your husband, And it's not an easy choice to make, but if you get there. The message might be more like a healthy and responsible person sticks with a spouse who is in pain. As long as that spouse is still showing up for themselves and honoring their duties. Yeah, I agree with that. Also a a healthy and responsible parent puts her kids' safety and happiness above a spouse's need to be completely validated in his anger and paranoia and Odd personal beliefs. That's another one. Yes. You know, Gabe, I find it interesting that she's spending some time evaluating whether his worldview is correct.

37:40 And I appreciate that. Like you said. It might not be completely disconnected from reality. But her job is not to decide whether his world view is correct. It's to decide whether his world view

37:53 And the way he identifies with it, the way he he acts on it. She has to decide whether that is safe. for her and her children. Not whether he's right about The VA or whatever the equivalent is. That is such a good point. You're absolutely right.

38:06 His distrust is not the problem. Look, tons of institutions are untrustworthy. I probably share plenty of this guy's views about the American version of whatever Australian institutions this guy doesn't like, you know? The problem Is that the distrust has become the fulcrum of this guy's entire personality slash life. On top of what sounds like either mania and or psychosis that's leading to reckless financial decisions, like spending tens of thousands of dollars on laboo boos or whatever. I don't know if this guy would put his trust in laboo boos. I think too new. You think he's a Beany baby guy, yes.

38:42 He's going old school. Beanie Baby's the bitcoin of the meaningless collectible world. So I agree with all of this, and yet she might not be ready to walk out tomorrow. I think you, my friend, are probably moving through a stage where you need to make room for both. For your husband's struggles and your children's struggles and your own feelings. And to attend to all of these things until the calculus becomes a little clearer. For example, you might still want to be kind to your husband. You might still want to listen to him and validate his difficult feelings, even if you disagree with his positions.

39:13 Maybe keep encouraging him to get help, which, you know, maybe that conversation is over and it ain't gonna happen, but still I think probably important to keep affirming and go on record as saying, you know Honey, I can see that you're angry. I understand why you're angry. I can see that these opinions are also creating a lot of suffering. I would really love for you to find somebody trustworthy you can talk to. And if you'd like, I'm here to help you do that.

39:36 And you're gonna wanna stay very close to your kids, ask them how they're doing, make it safe for them to open up to you. And make sure that they know you have got their back and are keeping an eye on things,'cause that's important too. And what her kids say in those conversations, that'll also be good data in deciding whether to stay or leave. Like if they say, We're scared of dad, we don't want to go downstairs when he's in the kitchen or whatever, that's a crucial fact. So the questions I'd be asking myself right now Are Does my husband show signs of realistically

40:05 meaningfully working on his mental health. Is there any openness to talking to somebody? Looking at his views or behavior, asking for help, or is he just like no, you can't trust anyone and I'm right about all this anyway? And does he seem to be getting worse? It sounds like maybe he is, but who knows? Maybe he'll plateau. I don't really know how this stuff works, but what effect is his behavior having on our home and on our kids? What price are they paying? Also, does my husband seem to appreciate my efforts to stick with him and help, or is he like

40:31 Just shrugging me off at this point. What specific behavior would make me go, Okay, this is officially getting to be too much. This is too dangerous, or whatever. Yes, although to your point that red line might have to start sooner than she thinks. And if he deteriorated further and God forbid, did something more extreme, like hurt one of you guys one day, would you wish you had left sooner or had some other intervention sooner? Yes. What will future you wish that present you did right now? Either in terms of seeking out resources or having certain conversations or potentially leaving. It's a hard question to answer, I know, but it's good exercise. You want to put the fire extinguisher in the kitchen before the fire happens. On that note, we found a bunch of resources that might be very helpful for you right now. I won't go on about them here, but we're going to include them in the show notes. I would definitely check those out and these people might have some ideas for you as well. I'm also just thinking about the fact that

41:23 Look, I'm gonna guess that your husband is fairly isolated and becoming more and more isolated because of these rants. And I think probably he can't hear a lot of information from certain people close to him. He might be able to hear certain information from people who share some of his life experience. For example Maybe other veterans. And so I'm just wondering. You didn't say very much about this in your letter, but

41:47 Are there any other people in his life who might be able to I don't know, give him some new angles on his situation or be a tether back to reality for him somehow, and are you in touch with any of those people? I'm just thinking about other veterans who might have struggled in a similar way, but haven't quite gone off the deep end in the way he has or maybe who are having a successful experience with medication or with the Department of Veterans Affairs and might be able to sit down with them and You know, validate what he's going through, but also say, Hey man

42:13 It doesn't have to be this difficult and I have put my faith in these institutions or these people and it's really saved my life and I would like to help bring you back into the fold in a way that makes sense to you, in a way that feels safe. I don't know if anybody like that is in this equation, but if there is such a person, I would try to reach out to them and Tell them the story and see if they can be allies to you. I'd also like to ask a tough question.

42:37 Is your support of your husband increasing his capacity to take responsibility for his life? And his mental health. Or Are you getting better at tolerating the consequences of his behavior and essentially enabling him? That might actually be the barometer that you're looking for here. Again, I'm so very sorry you guys are going through this. It's tragic. It really is. My heart aches for you and your husband.

42:58 And He also needs to be taken a lot better care of himself. For his own sake. For your sake. For your kids' sake.

43:05 I hope he sees that. If he doesn't I hope you find the insight and confidence you need. To take good care of yourself and your kids, which is ultimately all you really have control over. Sending all of you a big hug. And wishing you guys all the best.

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46:02 Alright, next up. Dear Jordan and Gabe. I've been with my boyfriend for nine years. We're both divorced and this relationship truly a second chance at love. Over time we've built a life together, moving in, blending our families and Even raising pets.

46:19 We're deeply in love. And I don't question his commitment to me. What I do struggle with is the feeling of being stuck in the title of girlfriend indefinitely. His divorce was difficult and left lasting impacts financially and emotionally. And his relationship with his adult daughters who are twenty and twenty nine now.

46:39 is still complicated. My experience was very different, my ex and I consciously uncoupled, even using the same attorney to amicably divide assets and move forward. It was the hardest thing I've ever had to do, but I'm proud of how we both handled leaving one another. That's fascinating. Two very different divorce experiences. Really cool that you and your ex separated so amicably. That's it's nice to know that can even happen. Totally. So she goes on, My boyfriend and I also have a nine year age gap, and I find myself still open to the idea of marriage, or at the very least, some form of legal and financial security for our future together. My concerns are not about love.

47:18 They're about protection. And stability. I live in his home, and my name isn't on the mortgage or deed. If something were to happen to him I would have no legal standing. And I worry that his daughters would not handle things fairly when it comes to decisions about his health or his assets.

47:35 That's a vulnerable place to be after nearly a decade together. Interesting, yeah. So it sounds like she's carrying spouse level dependents on this guy, but she's got like roommate level legal protection. I've tried to express these concerns, but they tend to get minimized or dismissed. I don't want to issue an ultimatum, but I also don't want to feel like I'm indefinitely waiting and hoping he'll come around. I think I need a clear answer, so I can accept it.

48:01 Or decide if it's something I can't live with. Is it unreasonable to ask for some form of legal acknowledgement of our life together, whether that's marriage? A living will or power of attorney? Yeah, so t I don't want to get too lawyery over here and I'm not an estate or family attorney and never was, I should say. But marriage is kind of the extra value meal that you get. All the protections are included, right? You got the will, the things the asset division. kinda goes to you so you've also got property rights, you've got

48:30 all kinds of different legal protections in place. Medical stuff is in there. But if you're not married, you gotta get all these pieces a la carte, right? You gotta get the burger, so you gotta get the will in place. You gotta get the medical agreement in place. And if you forget the fries, if you forget something, it just doesn't exist. It's not like when you're married and go, All right, well there's no will but you're his spouse, so here's your stuff. Right? It's you're not married and you have a will, but you don't have the medical thing in place. So guess what? You can't even get in the room. You you have no voice here. So you gotta be really careful with this. and do it with a lawyer who knows what they are doing.

49:04 How can I approach this conversation in a way that encourages action without creating pressure or defensiveness? Or is this simply something I have to wait out? And accept. Signed Wondering If It's My Lot. That my boyfriend won't tie the knot. Wow, interesting situation. I gotta be honest with you.

49:23 While Gabe was reading your letter. At first I was thinking, Okay, you guys are deeply in love, you don't question his commitment to you. What's the issue here? Do you really need the title? But then you got into legal protections, the practical stuff, and I was like, Oh yeah, this is a real thing. Okay, I get it. Cause if something were to happen to your boyfriend tomorrow. I mean, I don't know what his estate plan looks like if it exists. But his assets would generally pass according to the will and or state law.

49:47 And if you're not married, you're not named in the documents, you Probably don't have many rights at all. Or if he ended up in the hospital. Medical decisions would fall to whoever has legal authority. So that's gonna be like his kids? Somebody else designated in advance, but not automatically the partner he's had for nine years.

50:05 So I really understand your concerns here. I also want to make room for your boyfriend's position for a moment. If I went through a devastating divorce that cost me a ton of money. Drain me emotionally. complicated my relationship with my kids. I'd probably have some reservations about the whole institution as well.

50:22 it might feel like a very risky structure to get involved with. It also sounds like the idea of marriage is tinged with pain, loss of control, conflict, financial exposure, family upheaval. Plus he's older, right? His kids are grown up. He's probably thinking, What do I have to gain From getting married at this point. So in a big way I get his position or at least his hesitation.

50:43 In that said, it it does not sound like he's handling this conversation very well or putting himself in your shoes. It doesn't really sound like a conversation at all. Yeah. It sounds like you're bringing up your concerns, which are legitimate, and he's basically brushing them off and kicking the can down the road. I'm sure that's very frustrating for you. He could probably be talking to you about all this in a much more helpful way. What I'm trying to figure out is what does his minimizing or dismissing actually mean. How does he feel? That's where I'm a little confused as well. Is he dismissing her concerns because he actually disagrees with her, does not think she should be entitled to certain assets or decisions?

51:18 But also doesn't want to be in conflict with her and possibly lose her. I'm s confused. Yeah. Is he just being unhelpful and dense? Like what's the deal, man? It's the lack of real dialogue that's concerning here, more than not making her his wife. Although that matters too. I would almost prefer they go through a period of active conflict about all this than just not really talking about it at all. I'm imagining he's sitting there reading the whatever the twenty twenty six version of the newspaper is and she's like, So If anything happens to you, I can't even visit you in the hospital potentially and I can't decide medical stuff and I'm homeless and destitute. And he's like Yeah, whatever. Uh uh do you want to go to the game on Saturday? It looks like the Mets are playing I mean, I don't w he's just blowing you off. So I wonder if you need to approach this conversation differently.

52:02 Maybe you don't make it about marriage. You make it about partnership. You know, maybe you go up to him and you're like, Hey, look I know we've had very different experiences with marriage. Maybe it means different things to us. I want to clarify my concerns and my interests here. So you know where I'm coming from and I wanna know what yours are.

52:19 I don't doubt that we love each other deeply. I don't doubt our commitment to each other. What I worry about is given that commitment. What would happen if something ever happened to one of us? What position would that put us in? But we still mean the same thing to each other in the eyes of the law.

52:35 At the hospital, the government My feeling is this isn't about marriage at all. This is about protection. This is about finding ways to reflect what we mean to each other. if something were to go down. That could mean marriage, that would simplify a lot, but I'm open to other forms of this.

52:50 Estate planning, power of attorney, healthcare directives, wills, whatever else. But I need to know whether protecting the life we've built together is something that you're also interested in doing. And if not Why? Because I don't know where your hesitation is coming from. That's something I'd like to understand. I'm not here to make you do anything.

53:08 I'm willing to hear your true feelings about all this, whatever they are. But I can't let us avoid this conversation any longer. It's becoming confusing and kinda hurtful. And I'd rather know where you stand on this. Then stay in this in between place where we're not really talking. Slow claps over here. And if he's like You're imagining the worst case scenario. That's never gonna happen. Stop stressing out. I would respectfully press the issue. And if he won't give you a straight answer no matter what

53:34 Then I suppose at a certain point That is actually also an answer. Yeah, sadly, but again, an answer to what exactly? Whether he's willing to give her this piece of paper, whether he takes her concern seriously, whether he feels the same way about her. There are a few questions buried in this question. Yeah. It would be an answer to whether he wants to get married, but you're right. That's the ambiguity that she's struggling with. What does his silence mean at this point, really? I think what is very tricky about this is that she is saying, My concerns are not about love. They're just about these practical things. Great. But by refusing to really talk to her about this

54:09 A part of me wonders if he is raising a question about whether they share the same feelings. Or at least whether they are in agreement about what obligations those feelings imply. Do you see what I mean? Yeah, right. Like is he allergic to getting married again? Or is he allergic to protecting her legally? He might say, I am in love with you, we are on the same page. I just don't think that means you should be entitled to have the house over my daughters or be able to make healthcare decisions instead of them or whatever, okay. Fine, that might be his position. Maybe that's compatible with being in love with her, but that might also make her go

54:41 How Yeah, yeah, how can you hold that view if you really love me, if I'm truly your life partner, you just want to leave me homeless? Like come on, man. they've been together for nine years, right? They've blended their lives, their families, their cats and dogs sleep together. If she doesn't know if he's gonna give her this protection, Uh, I hate to say it, but it sounds like the answer is either No, or I don't want to think about it. Neither of which sounds like great news for her right now, I'm afraid. No. The status quo is already a decision. Bear in mind, okay, it just happens to be the decision that works best for him.

55:14 So if he doesn't want to get that piece of paper I would also collaborate with your boyfriend on different solutions. A lot of the security you're looking for can be created through thoughtful estate planning. A will or a trust, updated beneficiary designations, health care and financial powers of attorney. Clear medical directives.

55:30 If your biggest concern is what happens if he dies or becomes incapacitated, there are legal tools for that outside of marriage. For example An estate plan can allow you to inherit assets, remain in the home for a period of time, potentially for the rest of your life. rather than being forced to move out, and it can authorize you to make medical or financial decisions if he's unable to do so himself. It can also make his wishes clear, which can reduce confusion or conflict among family members during an already difficult time, so that's an added bonus for everybody, including and especially him. That really has nothing to do with the title of wife or husband. Right. So I don't think this is something necessarily you should just wait out and accept.

56:08 You don't need to give your boyfriend an ultimatum. But you might want to give him an alter minimum. Namely, the minimum level of protection so you don't end up homeless and destitute if one of you decides to end the relationship or he gets hit by a beer truck tomorrow. But I think what you need most is real information about how your boyfriend sorry to use that word But where he stands.

56:30 On all this. If he gives you a clear no then you can decide what that means and if you can live with it. That would be a tough decision. But I'd cross that bridge if you get to it. For now Just invest in the conversation and see what you learn.

56:42 Good luck. By the way, you can reach us Friday at JordanHarbinger dot com. Keep your emaise. Try to use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a whole lot easier. If your spouse is pressuring you to have kids, even though you always said you didn't want them and neither of you is capable of having a family You're rebuilding your entire life after a series of losses or accidents, or your in laws literally stole your house from you and your wife, still shaking my dang head about that one. Some people, man. Whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up Friday at Jordan Harbinger dot com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous.

57:14 Alright, next up. Dear Jordan and Gabe. My mother in law had a very successful career and raised four ambitious, successful children. They had a wonderful childhood, and my mother in law was attentive, involved, and loving. In recent years though, she's become a hoarder.

57:31 My husband said they did not grow up this way at all. Things were always clean and well kept. She had a little clutter when I first met her, but it's gotten progressively worse over the years. Now it's hard to walk around in many of the rooms in their home. That's gotta be a meaningful clue. My understanding is that hoarding generally starts young. And then gradually gets worse over time. So the fact that the hoarding started later

57:54 I wonder if something changed with her. That's caused us to visit less, and the other siblings to not visit at all. There are many grandchildren in the family she would love to see, but no one is willing to stay with her because the conditions of the house make it impossible. Which hasn't changed her behavior either. She also frequently comes home with bags from Dollar Tree full of things she already has.

58:16 The saddest thing is she'll buy things for the grandchildren, but we're the only ones who come to see her. She buys so much that she doesn't even know what she has. And when she does She can't find it. For years she's made little jokes that she's got a hoarding issue.

58:32 But I don't know if she recognizes the full extent of the problem. Interesting. That's actually encouraging. That means some part of her, some conscious part of her. Knows that she's a hoarder. And that could be a huge help. My father in law acknowledges the problem, but has largely enabled her for years. Now he's almost eighty and has his own health battles, so he's not able to rein her in as much.

58:55 I'm worried that this disease is not gonna stop. She hasn't always been completely forthright with her doctors, but We all suspect that she struggled with alcohol in the past. She gave up alcohol a few years ago, and her energy and overall health dramatically improved. We were all so proud of her.

59:13 And we're hopeful that these positive changes may help in the hoarding as well. Unfortunately, this has not been the case. It seems that she has traded one compulsion to For another. Out of all our children, we are the closest physically and have the best relationship recently, so

59:29 I feel that this responsibility falls on us. But we're struggling with how to approach this topic with her. She's very sensitive. And with her alcohol use in the past, I'm really worried that approaching this the wrong way. may cause her to backslid into drinking again.

59:46 The Dark Jordan in me wants to just rent a dumpster while she's on vacation and go ham on the house. But I know that won't treat the underlying disease. Totally. Yeah. That's like bailing water out of a sinking ship while there's a huge hole in the hole. She's just gonna come back from Dollar Tree a few dozen more times and you're right back to where you started. She was such a wonderful mother growing up and is a great grandmother. But it breaks my heart that this disease is affecting her relationship with her children and grandchildren. How do we approach Her seeking help.

1:00:17 Signed Trying to Keep Smiling and Reconciling My Mother in Law's Different Sides Without Reviling. When she refuses to stop stockpiling. Which must mean But there is something underlying. Man, this is a sad story. This is a tough situation. First off, I'm very sorry you guys are dealing with all this. I'm sorry for your mother in law. She's had her struggles, but she sounds like an impressive woman in so many ways. And

1:00:41 I'm sorry this has made it hard for you and the rest of the family to be super close with her. It's actually gotta be stressful and sad and scary, honestly. But I'm really touched about how much you care for this woman. how thoughtful you're being about how to address this with her. You sound like a great daughter in law. It's interesting. The picture you're painting of your mother in law Well, it's complex, right? There's the woman she used to be, her successful career, her ambitious and well functioning kids, no history of hoarding, the house was always super neat. That's all meaningful stuff. There's her cognitive state, the forgetting what she's bought or where she's put it, or not seeing her situation very clearly.

1:01:14 There's the history of alcoholism. There's whatever trauma led her to turn to alcohol back then. Which I suppose could theoretically also be informing the hoarding now. That's what the alcohol might have done to her cognition over the years. There's this quality of being hyper sensitive, which has got to be playing a big role in all this as well. This woman has a lot of stuff going on. I'm not quite sure where to begin. Yeah, Gabe, you said you looked into the trauma piece of this. You want to say a few words about that? Well, it's interesting. Apparently hoarding is related to trauma very often, but trauma is actually not part of the diagnostic criteria for hoarding disorder in the DSM. But a lot of studies do find elevated rates of childhood neglect. emotional abuse, loss of various kinds, you know, deprivation, insecure attachment in people who hoard. Yeah. Dot dot dot you have thirty seven of the same Guy Fieri bobblehead, but you can't find any of them in the guest closet. This woman's house just came to life for me. Thank you for that. So

1:02:11 It's interesting. Most experts seem to argue that trauma does not quote unquote cause hoarding exactly. But trauma can Create intense attachment to possessions. It can create exaggerated beliefs about somebody's responsibility for things in their house.

1:02:28 It can create perfectionism, which contributes. It can create avoidance of emotional distress, including, interestingly, the distress of having decide whether to get rid of something. And it can also impair decision making. So there are different lenses on this problem. There are different ways to approach it, but the psychodynamic lens on hoarding is that it's actually expressing deeper conflicts. Not just, you know, faulty thinking or whatever. And on that model People who hoard might really struggle to tolerate loss, they can have problems with separation and individuation.

1:02:59 They can sometimes use possessions to maintain continuity of identity like I don't feel like myself, I don't know if I have a stable sense of self unless I have these things around me. They can also use objects to create safety against abandonment to try to regulate unbearable feelings. All of that. I see. So in a way, trauma can cause hoarding, but it's not quite a direct connection. That's what I'm learning. What that means for our friend here, I don't quite know. I don't know if she can really help this woman heal whatever wounds might be underneath the hoarding thing. Also, hoarding apparently has one of the lowest treatment response rates among anxiety spectrum disorders, which is also very interesting. Super interesting. That actually makes sense somehow.

1:03:39 But she might Not have to heal that stuff in order to get a little bit better here. Which is the fact that the hoarding developed later in life, and it sounds like she's having trouble even remembering what she bought or where she put it. So Where my mind goes is Is there some dementia at play here? Would that explain the hoarding? So I looked into that as well, and dementia and other forms of cognitive decline can absolutely contribute to hoarding. Yes. I assumed so, yeah. That's why old people's estate sales be lit,'cause there's a ton of stuff. The DSM says that hoarding disorder should not be diagnosed if the hoarding is better explained by another medical condition like dementia or brain injury or stroke or

1:04:19 Certain neurodevelopmental conditions. Then the diagnosis might be something like major neurocognitive disorder, which I had never heard about until now. With hoarding behavior. But not hoarding disorder. But you know, we're kind of talking out of school here, like that's for a doctor to decide. So like maybe she's just slipping?

1:04:39 Right, and that's creating anxiety and fear and just a general lack of awareness. And that's what the hoarding is about? It's a theory. Someone who's had mild hoarding tendencies their entire life can definitely become worse if dementia starts to develop. But then there's that thing you jumped on in the letter, how she kinda acknowledged the hoarding. That's what the DSM calls. Insight and high insight means greater likelihood of improvement. But then high insight is also less common in people with dementia. Interesting. So maybe that doesn't fully explain it.

1:05:10 The only other clue in her letter is that her husband now has health problems, and maybe that's been a huge transition for her. And it's bringing up some new fear and anxiety, and that's what's driving the hoarding. But we don't know the exact timeline on when his health stuff began and how it lined up with the hoarding. So there's that. But look, whatever the root causes, here's what I do. One day when you visit your mother in law, you and your husband could sit down with her and say, Listen

1:05:34 We wanna share something with you that we feel is really important. This might not be the most fun conversation, but it's all good. We just wanted to talk to you because we love you. As you know, the house has changed a lot over the last few years. There's a lot more stuff here. as you can see when you look around, and w we're a little worried about you guys. Now, we know these belongings matter to you. We're not here to decide what should or shouldn't be kept. That's up to you. Бо вот worries us

1:05:58 is that the house doesn't seem to be supporting the life that you want. We know how much you love having the kids and grandkids over together. All the clutter is making it really hard for them to come over and enjoy their time here. It's also making you and dad's lives a lot harder. Just navigating the place with all this stuff is tricky and it's a little dangerous. We don't want Dad with his health problems having to navigate a pan's labyrinth of plastic colanders and ceramic garden gnomes from Hobby Lobby.

1:06:24 I maybe that would be a good moment to pause and check in with her, see if any of that's landing If she's having any reaction good or bad, if if she's on board and acknowledging or just getting defensive and retreating. And then I would work up to saying If you're open to taking a look at the house and making it more inviting for the family, we'd love to work with you at a pace that feels good. We don't expect everything to change overnight. We're not forcing you to do anything. We're not criticizing you.

1:06:48 We just want to understand how we can help make things easier. Based on what I've read, the goal is to avoid arguing about the possessions themselves,'cause that's a minefield, right? And it's gonna be a harder point of entry. What you want is to tap into what matters most to the person. In your mother in law's case. I think that's staying close with the family.

1:07:08 And to invite collaboration, which is supportive and non threatening. Oh man, amazing approach. Also, because the hoarding started later in life and there might be there might be this cognitive decline piece, I would definitely get your mother in law checked out by a doctor as soon as you can. You can start with a P C P and then maybe get a referral to a neurologist or a psychiatrist or a neuropsychologist if necessary. You can speak with the P C B. privately before the appointment or after the appointment and say, look, we're noticing some things. What do you think?

1:07:37 What kind of doctor do you think she should visit? This would be very high on my list. And you'd do that before recommending she see a therapist. I think taking her to see a doctor for a general checkup is gonna be a much easier sell for her mother in law. I worry about how her mother in law might hear, Yeah, you're hoarding and it's freaking us out. Um by the way, we're taking you to a therapist. I don't know if she wants to do that. Yeah, especially since she's hyper sensitive. By the way, I probably would not tell her that you're worried she might have dementia. Maybe you just frame it as we want to make sure that you're feeling as well as you could. Let's visit the PCP. It's probably about that time, you know, something like that. By the way, if she refuses all help, which is very common, most experts seem to agree You don't want to keep reopening the argument. The best approach is basically Express concern without shaming.

1:08:22 Keep the door open. You know, like, hey, if you ever want help, we're here. And focus on immediate safety issues like the ability to get around the house, fire hazards, stuff like that. Honestly, that's kind of my main concern at this point. 'Cause she might not be able to get her mother in law to a point where she stops hoarding so much stuff that the kids and grandkids don't wanna come over, but If they are getting older and their stairwell is lined with newspapers from the last twenty five years That's a real issue. So

1:08:48 I really feel for you guys here. You wanna intervene, you wanna save her from herself, but you're also kinda walking on eggshells. You're afraid of hurting her, you're afraid of somehow making her relapse with the alcohol. This is The stakes are high here. They're not walking on eggshells. They're walking on four hundred and fifty eggshell cartons she picked up from a garage sale for her arts and crafts project that she's never gonna do. I think you're smart to take all of this into account. I also think you kinda have to be willing to provoke your mother in law a little bit. In order to make progress here. I can tell that you're not gonna be cruel when you talk to her. You're not gonna be too heavy handed.

1:09:23 I wouldn't let these fears stop you from having an honest but compassionate conversation about how her stuff is getting in the way of the life that she says she wants to have. with the rest of her family. Look. Maybe some experts would disagree. I'm happy to take that note if it comes along and if anybody listening right now happens to be an expert in hoarding or dementia, and you have a different take, I would love to hear from you and we can pass that along to our listener, but from where I'm sitting

1:09:47 I think it's okay if that pinches. A little. The pinch might be part of this conversation. you might want to also trust that she can bear a little bit of that discomfort. in order to receive your help.

1:09:59 I think your responsibility is to communicate with love and to approach her with a helpful spirit. not to manage every possible emotional reaction she might have. Totally agree. I'm also remembering that her husband has contributed to this situation, which is unfortunate. I know the guy's health problems. I know it's probably really hard for him. But he also needs to be an anchor to reality.

1:10:20 He needs to say This is getting out of hand. Let the kids help. So maybe that's another approach you and your husband could take, letting your father in law know That you plan to talk to his wife about the hoarding in a helpful way.

1:10:32 And you'd like him to be part of the conversation and encourage her to really hear you guys out. Once again we found a bunch of good hoarding resources, a couple of great books on the topic. Also some organizations. We're gonna link to all of those in the show notes and I hope they help. I am very sorry your mother in law is dealing with this. It's gotta bring up a lot of anxiety and sadness for you guys. But your mother in law's lucky to have you guys looking out for her as well. I hope she can take in what you have to say. And I hope this conversation goes well. Good luck. Keep us posted. Also, in case y'all don't know, there's a subreddit for the show. If you want to jump into discussions with other listeners about specific episodes, if there's an episode you like, you didn't like, you want to share additional thoughts, feedback Friday is always a major set of threads over there in the subreddit. You can find it all on the Jordan Harbinger subreddit.

1:11:15 You know what you are gonna wanna block your fire exits with? The find products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do. Take a moment, support our amazing sponsors. All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are searchable and clickable on the website at JordanHarbinger.com slash deals. If a code doesn't work, something's misbehaving, email us, Jordan at JordanHarbinger.com.

1:11:45 We're happy to dig up codes for you. Thank you so much for supporting those who support the show. Now for the rest of Feedback Friday. Alright, now for the recommendation of the week. I am addicted to lip filler.

1:11:58 My recommendation for the week is a free website. It's called visual ping.io. Visualping.io. It's a website that monitors changed on other websites. So like I got a bunch of software that doesn't check for updates automatically. It's not from the Mac app store, it's from the web somewhere. There are pages on Wikipedia that I want to check so that to see if people are vandalizing my page or whatever. I'm researching topics, whatever. You can put the URL. into visual ping.io and it'll check every day or every week, even every hour if you really have something mission critical, and it'll send you an email summary telling you if there is a change. And for example, you could do it for your own website.

1:12:36 Every hour or every day and then you'll know If some plug in broke or your e commerce store went down Or your website got hacked and something weird is up there. G casino ad. Or say you need to, I don't know, regularly check on the Boy Scouts website of the little league website you run for your kids. Visual ping.

1:12:54 We'll keep an eye on it and let you know whenever there's updates on there on events and locations and times and all that. So you're not checking, Oh, is the camp info up there yet? Oh, is it let me check tomorrow. Is it up there yet? It's such a great tool. I'm a big fan of this thing. it kind of became a major part of my workflow and ongoing maintenance recently. Again, visual ping.io we'll link to it in the show notes. The free edition lets you check every day and I think you can do a bunch of websites for free before they ask you to pay anything. Alright. What's next?

1:13:22 For our last segment today, we have an update on the dog custody letter from a few weeks ago. You remember this one? This was the woman who was sharing custody of Frankie was it? Frankie, and that's right. The pup that launched a thousand ships. Yes. Yes, and sank another relationship, that is. So she was Sharing custody of the dog with her ex. And he kept being like, I want fifty fifty custody but then he had her like ten percent of the time and wasn't kicking in any money for the Fet bills and stuff and would show up two hours late to pick her up and return her. Annoying. Yes, that's right. So our take was basically at this point, you are Frankie's rightful owner. This guy seems to be making this arrangement very difficult in a variety of ways. He's not being very collaborative or

1:14:02 frankly realistic about what he can offer here, so I think it's time to do this. Right. So you're good to tell him that you're keeping Frankie full time, time for this dude to just move on dot org. Yes. Which, by the way, just purchased by the husband from Quest One. But that's a side note. Uh so she so she wrote us again. And she said. Hi guys. I listened to the episode and you both provided some really insightful feedback and opinions as per usual and some good laughs too.

1:14:28 To update you this conversation around custody of Frankie with my ex Happened. Oh, all right. Let us give us the goods. Against all odds, and to my absolute utter surprise, He took it extremely well. Wow, that's amazing news. I did not see that coming. When he requested to take her most recently, I sent the message saying we won't be sharing custody anymore through text, because I had some of the same fears some of your other listeners shared by email and in the subreddit. as well as the thoughts that you both shared on the up. He essentially said he agreed, despite how hard it'll be.

1:15:04 understands his life is unfitting for her. knows that I will give her all the care and love she needs, and thanked me. For being so patient with him. Gabe, I'm a little confused. Is this the same guy? Is is he in therapy? Does he have a twin? Is a good guy? Did he hear feedback Friday? And he's like, Uh, I better not be the totally predictable A hole when this conversation comes up. I don't know. Maybe uh Chad GPT write the response and he's like, Yeah, that is probably what a good human being would do. I don't know. Maybe even chat GPT is not always this nice. I'm just a little surprised'cause she described him as combative and difficult and even kind of manipulative emotionally and otherwise, and it just it just sounds like a different person entirely. Well that's actually one reason I wanted to share her update because she goes on

1:15:46 I was not expecting that response. And honestly, it makes me think he's finally been going to therapy, so good on him. Yeah, that is the best ad for better help I could have asked for. Therapy. When you need to let go of the chihuahua you've been neglecting without creating more pain and stress for your ex. To be clear, it's not because this is an ad for therapy that I wanted to share the letter, but I do think if this guy is in therapy and that's why he was able to let go so easily. Uh, wonderful. Yeah. That's fantastic. So she goes on. Anywho, thank you so much again for your time thinking about and responding to my letter. My new partner and I love to listen to the Feeback Friday episodes together when we drive and today's was extra special. Love to hear that. Couples listening together in the car is so sweet to me. So sweet. Yeah.

1:16:31 But I j I just like that detail, mostly because it probably means Frankie was in the car, so she listens to feedback Friday too. So I'm gonna count that as a win. Yeah, we're a hit in the canine world. I get emails all the time. All the best. No longer Cranky,'cause I finally got Frankie and did it without tanking. this relationship that got shaky. Man, well, this is great news. I'm happy for ya. I'll be honest, I thought this was gonna be a bit of a fight with your ex a fight worth having, but a fight nonetheless. And I thought it might get a little ugly before he finally hopefully back down and let you keep Frankie. I really did not see this outcome. I don't know, Gabe, am I am I overly cynical where it's like he's reacting this way and then he's gonna catch you off guard by Grabing the I mean I I I just probably watch Too many horror movies.

1:17:13 Right, but I don't know. I think so. Yeah. I think that's Dark Jordan uh just going buck wild in your mind. Maybe. I have more hope, but you know what I love about this update is to your point, when we read her letter And she described her acts. We were kind of positioning ourselves, positioning her for a fight. Right? Yeah. I mean she literally said, I don't think he's gonna take this well. I think he's gonna yell and make a scene and maybe even steal the dog or something along those lines. And so it only made sense to go into this conversation with a guard up, with a tough script, with a firm plan to avoid the worst case scenario. But What her update made me think this week was Well, first of all, these are always just assumptions, and we don't know with total certainty how somebody is gonna react to a difficult conversation, so there's that.

1:17:59 But More importantly, the response that we get from other people when we have to engage in conflict like this That often depends in part on how we speak to them. So if you go into a conversation like this assuming the worst, which I cannot blame her for doing, she I think she would probably be a little naive not to But if you go into it assuming that the other person is going to be

1:18:21 Hostile, manipulative, aggressive, whatever. I think it's probably more likely that you meet them with a certain tone or a certain spirit that feeds that response that might even create that response. But if you go into a conversation assuming the best or just staying open to the possibility of things going better than you think, with some hope that you might be speaking to the other person's best self, you know? Maybe you meet them with a kinder tone, with a more collaborative spirit, and that invites a better response.

1:18:48 Obviously that does not always happen, but it can. And that's what I liked about this letter. It's an interesting point. So what you're saying is if you assume you're talking to the best version of the other person Even if there's conflict, even if there are hurt feelings and tough words. If you talk to the person in a way where you believe they can meet you on the same level See things from your point of view, like in this case, that her ex could empathize with her and do what's right for Frankie, even though he'd be losing this dog that he says he loves. Do you almost

1:19:15 inspire the person to rise to the occasion as opposed to talking to them like they're already your enemy. That is exactly it. Exactly. Yeah. I mean look, I think that's a really good point. And like you said, not always the case, but you're right, you can actually shoot yourself in the foot by assuming you have an enemy or that An enemy will always remain. An enemy. And again, if I were in her shoes, I think I would have prepared for a fight as well, but this turn of events is kind of humbling to me in a really great way because we made no room for the idea that he might be mature in understanding, or that she could prepare for this conversation in a way that invited that response. And I don't know if her conversation did or if he was just ready to hear it in a new way, but clearly he was not the person she thought he was. I also find it kinda touching that this formerly challenging guy

1:19:58 seems to be evolving quite a bit, at least on this particular issue. That is all part of it. And good for him. We think we know people, we think we know exactly how they're gonna respond, but they can surprise us. And if her ex responded this way because he went to therapy, well great, good for him. It's just it's very cool to hear. Must be a huge relief. But the headline is Congratulations on getting custody of Frankie. That is amazing. You must be over the moon. I'm sure Frankie on her dog level feels it too, and I'm just very, very happy for you guys. For sure. You deserve her, she deserves you, and now you can enjoy your dog without always worrying about your ex. What a gift. Well done, my friend. Sending you all a big hug and hope you have many, many great years together and many great episodes of Feed Bark Friday in the car. Alright, I'll see myself out. Go back and check out Sonia Lubomirsky and our Skeppy Sonny on Milk if you haven't done so yet. Our six minute networking course remains free and remains on the Think Ifik platform at sixminute networking.com. Dig the well before you get thirsty folks. Build relationships before you need'em. Show notes and transcripts are on the website, advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support the show.

1:20:58 Also on the website at JordanHarbinger.com slash deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe is on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fergerty, Ian Baird, Tadasadlauskis, and of course Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own. And now I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Consult a qualified professional before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today.

1:21:33 In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time. You're about to hear a preview about the biggest threats to your health that most people never see coming. From microplastics in the brain to everyday habits that quietly chip away at your energy, focus, and longevity. I think microplastics are a problem. most people know generally what they are. I mean these are like small pieces of plastic that come off larger pieces.

1:22:02 And they get into our bodies mostly through what we're ingesting. And they're in the air as well. And so they get smaller and smaller and smaller, they're called nanoplastics. And as the smaller they get, they become more dangerous in a way because we can absorb them easier. It's in our water sources. It's on the plants that we eat. So vegetables and fruits because it's in the soil and they get on the plants. So it's in the plants.

1:22:25 It's in meat. It's in every it's All over the place. Air is a big source of microplastic pollution as well. It's getting everywhere in our organs, but dietary fiber seems to prevent absorption in a couple different ways. Particularly soluble fibers, fermentable fiber, Prebiotics, right? Those are all sort of interchangeable ways of saying soluble fiber. Fruits, fruits is a big one, the skins of fruits.

1:22:49 Some vegetables as well, but you can supplement with it like inulin, you know, there's a lot of these prebiotic fibers people take as well. Beta glucans is another one. The point is is that If something you can do. to prevent your body from absorbing it, that's the best. And try to eliminate these microplastics as much as they can. And the number one thing you can do is get a water filter for sure.

1:23:11 Air filters in your house. Water filters in your house. Those are the two top things that you can do. The reality is is that microplastics it's just everywhere. Catch the full conversation with Doctor Ronda Patrick for the science behind it all and the practical changes that can actually make a difference on episode twelve sixty seven of the Jordan Harbinger Show.

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