Dr. Gio Valiante (Part 1): Discipline and Resilience

0:00 And so discipline is just a habit of mind that evolves into a habit generally of behavior. And so when you're trying to give someone more discipline, one of the things that's really, really important is right out of the gates. is to change the actual behavior because as as Albert Bandura famously said, You know, behavior is a cause of behavior. Like the more you can get someone to do something, the more likely it is to repeat. So the reality about discipline is the quicker you can get it infused into someone's

0:30 habits, the more likely it is they're gonna sustain it through life. If you're trying to change habits later in life, you gotta go all in and as soon as you're aware that you want to change them, don't wait. Don't hesitate. Welcome to the Knowledge Project, a podcast about mastering the best of what other people have already figured out, so you can apply their insights. To your life. I'm your host, Shane Parish.

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1:32 special episodes that don't appear anywhere else, hand edited transcripts, or you just want to support the show you love, you can join at fs.blog slash membership. Check out the show notes for a link. In the first of a special two part episode on the Knowledge Project, celebrated performance psychologist Dr. Gio Valiente calls on his vast experience working with. Some of the world's top athletes and entrepreneurs to discuss How to develop discipline and resilience in work.

2:04 And life. Doctor Gio. also offers his thoughts on the five ways to gain an advantage and win. Changing your habits, the role your environment plays in discipline, and how we can develop resilience in ourselves and our children. He's regarded as one of the most successful performance coaches in the world, and he's worked extensively with golfers on the PGA and LPGA tours, Olympic athletes, and leading figures in NCAA football and the NFL.

2:32 Where he served as the head performance coach of the Buffalo Bills. He's also logged more than 5,000 hours, coaching some of the most sophisticated investors in the world, including hedge fund manager Steve Cohn. If you stick around at the end of the podcast, I'm gonna offer a mini reflection on the episode and some of the lessons I took away and I'm gonna add to them so you can take away even more. It's time. To listen?

3:00 And learn. I wanna start with the five ways to gain an advantage and compete and win. Yeah, that's that's an idea I put out into the world uh about a year, maybe year and a half ago, that seems to be getting a lot of attention. You know, it's it's rooted in in um my experiences first of all as a psychologist who studies cognition and cognitive abilities and belief systems and

3:31 Um, and then uh as a sports psychologist on the PGA tour for fifteen years and and now someone who coaches quite a few people uh in in in finance in the hedge fund space. And so when we talk about the five ways to win. You know, you s you start with someone on the PGA tour like uh who I I use a guy named Rory McElroy as an example. And Roy McElroy is an example of just someone who's just Talented and and people recognize that in Rory. Like, you know, if you look at videos of Rory McGor when he was six years old. He has the same golf swing today, you know, that that he did when he was six years old. It's just he rolled out of bed and knows how to swing a golf club.

4:10 And people who have prodigiousness in a particular domain or arena That's how they experience it. It's like I could just play. There's this story about uh Eddie Van Halen and his brother Alex Van Halen. And Eddie Van Halen, it's it's well known, you know, was a a musical prodigy, particularly in the guitar. But what happened was А з за сторікос. Uh Eddie Van Halen had gotten drums for a Christmas gift and Alex had gotten the guitar.

4:37 And after they both were playing on their respective instruments for months, uh, you know, Alex tells the story that uh Eddie picked up his guitar and started ripping on licks. That that Alex had been trying to do for for weeks. And he picked it up the the the the the the the neck and the frets made sense. And so that's what talent looks like. It's just someone shows up. It makes sense and they run with it, but

5:00 Where it gets interesting from there. Yeah, if you look at the P GA tour in any given week, there's a hundred and forty uh players that get to play in a given event every week. And but Rory McElroy doesn't win every week. And so well, how how does everyone else compete? So you're if you're in the world. And and everyone recognizes often like that's just what talent looks like. And and if you go into the markets, you know, great investors tend to have certain cluster of traits. It's you know, they can remember every trade, so memory is part of it.

5:30 um great analytical skills, great logical skills. They have typically great interpersonal skills where they know people and and so they know the markets. They can benchmark against risk and risk taking. So they have all these cluster of of of skills and abilities. Well, so the way it works is if you are not one of these people. Um who are just pure talent. one of the ways that you can compete is just through effort, right? Through through your work through working harder, right? So

5:57 you know, I'm willing to not sleep a lot. So I'm gonna outwork you and maybe that's gonna close the gap. Yeah. Um, and through effort, I can close the gap between myself and and sort of the Uber talented. So, you know, we use the language of being all in, you know, pot committed to your craft. And what you often see at the tail end of the curve, so if you move way out to the tail end of the curve to the top One hundredth of a percent uh of people. And this is sort of domain agnostic. This is sort of the profile of excellence.

6:27 In any domain, what you see is this this blending of vocation and avocation. You know, what happens often in psychology. Is is is psychologists will often say, Well, you know, you are not your work, you know, who you are. in what you do are are separate things, and it's a healthy thing to keep those separated. And I understand the point, right? Because we have a personal identity and a family identity and a professional identity. But at the very tail end of the curve, what you see is typically a blending.

6:59 of vocation and avocation where work and hobby sort of fuse. And like Kobe Bryant in basketball, like the level of all in he went. Ronnie Law in football, Bodie Miller in skiing, Kelly Slater in surfing, you know, every side every great scientist ever. Right, you know, try to try to tell John Nash or Albert Einstein or Isaac Newton that they are not what they do. And the reason I say that is because the second way to win is is hard work and effort. But often it's accompanied by love of craft, by you know, so that the work doesn't feel like work. So I give an example of

7:37 Of my friend Steve Cohen. You know, Steve Cohen has the reputation of being, you know, arguably one of the best traders of his generation. I mean, there's five or six. Iconic investors, and certainly Steve is in the conversation. And anyone who's ever sat next to Steve, they know it's like, you know, what he does and how he sees markets, it's just, you know, I I can't do that. I can't go there. Uh and I've talked to uh I had dinner with Steve's high school friends, and you know, Steve got up from the table to go to the bathroom and they said, Hey Gio, like Like this is how he was in high school. He was in charge of the high school investing club. And so like this this

8:11 prodigiousness That gets accompanied by effort, and I say that because over the course of forty years. You know, assuming two hundred and fifty trading days a year, Steve Cohen, ten thousand trading days, Steve took four days off. And those four days are because he was in the hospital. And it's not because he needed the money.

8:31 He's been rich since he was in his you know early thirties. It's it's the habit of hard work because what happens uh with people who who who love to work is an inversion happens whereby you start to love the hard parts of the craft. So for example, great golfers. So so use golfers as an example. Everyone loves to hit the driver at the driving range because it goes far. But if you paid attention to Tiger Woods during his run, his epic run. And you watched him practice, Tiger Woods would camp out over three foot putts for hours, so much so

9:04 That if you went to the putting green. Oh, an Isleworth country club where he lived. At the end of the day. You would see The imprints where his feet were

9:16 And the line that the ball tracked from where he was to the hole was He would hit so many three foot putts that it would burn the grass out. And when you look at his track record, he didn't win those eighty something events with his driver. His statistics from three or four feet it in, that's what won it was the love of of doing the boring stuff. And the the equivalent is swimming is people who practice their flip turns.

9:41 Right, everyone wants to practice their stroke and all the fun stuff, but like find time in the flip turn. So the inversion that happens. of people who are willing to outwork the competition, right? And in effort. So again, we go to the five ways to win. Number one is talent. Number two is work ethic. It's like I'm you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna close the gap by outworking people. Now, where magic happens, and I think people use Michael Jordan as an example. is when you marry the two. He's the best and he worked the hardest. Like Now that's you know the most talent, you know, married with the most effort is is you know can become legendary. Gunstig own app.

10:19 Diese Woche Patros Grill und Ofenkäse. 150 Gramm für nur 1,79 Euro. Oder Tassimor Kaffeekapseln. Ab 163,8 Gramm für nur 3,99 Euro. Entdecke weitere Angebote in deinem Aldi Nord. Aldi. Gutes für alle. The third way to win is to have a differentiated perspective, right? To sort of see the world Differently. Um, and I'll give an example of of a differentiated perspective. I'll give a couple of examples, I guess.

10:48 So now here we are in August and and it's a good time in a lot of parts of the world, you know, to go look at the night sky. If you're a star gazer like you know, now's a good window. But when I look up at the stars, which I did with my my kids this weekend I I see the big dipper. And Van Gogh looked at the same stars and he saw starry night.

11:08 Right. So the looked at thing. is the same that's the objective. But the subjective interpretation the subjective experience. Is is is where people can separate themselves. So for example, if you look at college football. Look at three sort of hall of fame coaches. You've got Nick Sabin.

11:25 Urban Meyer and Steve Spurrier. Nick Sabin generally views football as as an arms race for talent. Just recruit the Best character. and the best athletes and stack your team with talent and then coach the heck out of it. So he's a wonderful coach, no question about it.

11:45 But he and and Bill Belichick were really, really early on profiling players and and knowing how to get the the best players in the building. So talent, you know, recruiting is a way to win in college football. But then get a guy like Steve Spurrier. If you look at the rankings of recruiting classes, Steve would always make jokes like, you know, we never have the best recruiting class, but why are we always winning? Well Steve Spur yourself football as a game of space.

12:11 So he would recruit a quarterback. had good decision making and receivers and essentially what he tells quarterbacks is You know, the field is a multi dimensional thing and here's the clock and just throw the ball into space. and let the receiver run under it. And it worked. Ten SEC championships, a national championship. I'll see.

12:29 Well then you get a guy like Urban Meyer and Urban Meyer came into the college football scene. And his success was I mean it was jarring. how he would take programs and how quickly they would win. And on some level, and I'm being a little bit simplistic here, but Urban Meyer sees this at a foot race, sees it as a foot race. It's a game of speed.

12:48 And so at every position, if you're gonna play for Urban Meyer, you better love to run, whether you're an offensive lineman, defensive lineman, quarter like you have to run. So again, you've got you've got three college football coaches. One sees his game of talent. One sees it as a game of spacing, one sees it as a game of speed. There's they're all looking at the same game. But it's a differentiated perspective. And that differentiated perspective

13:11 can really unlock a lot of different things. If you ever read a book called Go Fast, Be Good and Have Fun by Bodie Miller. You can understand like how he was so successful, but like He doesn't look at skiing Never looked at skiing as technique.

13:27 He just saw that speech. So essentially what he says is I put my skis on the hill. And I just feel speed in my feet. And like I just try to find the speed. And whatever my body does, it does. that's a differentiated perspective. And it happens in the markets, right? Some people see it as You know, if I could be faster to a trade. Some people see it as

13:45 as a as a game of slugging, and slugging is a statistic in in the markets where it's not how frequently you're right. But it's how big your bets are when you're right. Right. So so what you see oftentimes is investors. is is their hit rate is is is high, like they're right, you know, seven out of ten times. But they make every Brett the the every trade the same the same amount of money.

14:07 So that plays to their advantage. Well, there are other investors who say, you know what, I don't get it right a lot, but like I know a good idea when I see it. And that ability to know a good idea and you size into that idea, well, that gives you outsized return. So differentiated perspectives. On the same job. Number four is process. We talk about a rigorous

14:29 disciplined process being religious about process I even though Aristotle made the observation, what did he say? He said, um, we are what we do every day, you know, therefore excellence is not an act but a habit. Any observer of the human condition has known this goes back to Freud's the idea of repetition compulsion. You know, the output of a human life is essentially the expression of of a repeated habits. If you have consistency of process.

14:57 What it does is it guards against the natural variability of life and it If you're making mistakes, you know where to look. And so essentially having you know waking up at about the same time, consistency in food, consistency in exercise. you know, pilots talk about a pre flight checklist that way because what happens is Any demanding job

15:19 puts a premium on your cognitive abilities, particularly memory. And so when you get to the point where you're in cognitive overload, and professional sports are cognitive overload. Um academics uh cognitive overload, markets cognitive overload. Well, the degree to which you can outsource this stuff to routine and and and and autum sort of go into automaticity

15:44 That creates space for actual decision making and quote unquote thinking. And so process is a is a way to get it an advantage. So if you're not the smartest and There's a limit, you know, to your ability to work hard and you see things a little bit differently, but not too much differently. But you know what? I can design a life that has the wash, rinse, repeat of my life. You know, I I can I can live that. Well, that's an advantage. I'll give an example. Whenever I would work with golfers on the PGA tour. One of the things that that really, really work to the tune of about fifty wins. And so what's fascinating to me about about entering

16:18 s sports with a with a degree in psychology. Yes, psychology is largely theoretical. And when you start applying the theory, it's like I is it gonna work? The theory to practice bridge. And so I I I I created what's called the fearless golf routine. And so prior to that, what you would often see, is golfers being reactive

16:39 to the variability around them. So they would feel differently. If their score was different, they would feel differently if they were paired with Tiger Woods. or a marquee player versus a friend. They would feel differently based on their world ranking. So all the variability around them would change their psychology. They would try harder at the masters than they would at the John Deere.

16:59 Or or like so so the status of a tournament. So what I what I found when I got to the PGA tour. In two thousand and two. We're a group of people who were all competitive. But they actually didn't know what they were competing against. So I would ask them, like, do you consider your this is part of my psychological study? You consider yourself a competitive person. They say, absolutely. I say okay, who are you competing against?

17:22 And line up five golfers and you get five different answers. Well, one of them would say, I'm competing against people in my group. The next one would say I'm competing against myself. You know, the other ones would say I'm competing against the field, but that that's all variability. And all of a sudden you would realize that that that there was no constants in their life. And so I created what's called the fearless golf routine. And I and I would teach it to them. It's here's what you do before you hit a shot, here's what you do with a shot.

17:47 And here's what you do after called twenty seconds of greatness. And by the way, Urban Meyer coaches the same thing in football. Right, seven seconds of greatness, because that's about how long if an offensive lineman can hold a block, if you can hold a play for you know three, four, five, six seconds all the way through and repeat that essentially sixty or seventy times, which is how many plays college uh football players uh get in a thing. Like Process is a way to win. And I would often show them a shampoo bottle, read the back of a shampoo bottle, like lather, wash, rinse, repeat. So what do you do in the lead? Pick a target, pick a fearless swing at your target, let it go. And just keep wash, rinse, repeat a good process.

18:22 That's what wins over time. Right. And then the final way to win is and this is true more in business. The fifth way is you hire effectively. So if I don't have those other things, but I'm I'm a good I read people well and I manage people well. And I think you can look at someone like Ken Griffin.

18:39 I don't think anyone would tell you that Ken Griffin, the founder of Citadel, is like a prodigious trader But he's built a business system in a a business model that's the ultimate meritocracy. And and you know, you hire um to effectively compensate for the deficiencies that you have. And so you hire the best person at every position. It's true in sports.

19:01 And you're an effective manager. And and I guess there's a sixth way. You get lucky and I'm holding up a book called The Luck Factor. It it's it's it's a real thing, you know, it it you can assign it to randomness or some people really are more lucky in life. Like you you you you flip a quarter in a random number generator five million times And at the end of that five million flips, you're gonna get fifty fifty heads and tails. But within those five million flips, you're gonna see patterns.

19:28 that seem to be causal. You'll see heads, heads, heads, heads, heads, heads, heads for a hundred iterations, and tails for a hundred iterations. And then you'll see heads tails, heads tails, heads tails. And the reality is there are some lives that land on heads,'cause you know, you're on the earth for seventy years and some people just get lucky. So if like that's your path to winning It happens sometimes, but so does the other side of the equation. Some people just, you know, on on the probability scale don't get lucky. So I don't really include that. in the five ways to win, but like it happens sometimes that you know you're born at in the right setup and life is a series of of tailwinds.

20:03 Thank you for that detailed explanation. I wanna double click a little bit on discipline. Is discipline a matter of willpower? Like some people say I'm not very disciplined. How do you coach somebody to be more disciplined or to to gain the strength and advantage that sort of comes from discipline. Great, great question and an important one. So the first thing that that people in performance psychology or management, you know, either do or should do. Is you want to get really there's certain traits in the human condition that are fixed.

20:35 And there's some that are malleable. In other words, in in fixed trades. You're not gonna change them. And I think where people spend too much time is they they try to fix the unfixable. You see this in marriages a lot, right? In in in marriage counseling and in therapy. You know, you marry someone and and and you want them to change and when you're on the other side of the table, sometimes the answer is hey, you know what you married. And and so you you better be clear before you go in and what what you're gonna be able to change and what you're not. So fixed traits.

21:03 versus malleable traits. And so when we look at something, so so when you look at fixed traits like personality. By and large, you're not changing personality. Things like IQ. I mean they they shift over time. They tend to gradually Um um move in a direction consistent with, you know, with with with family sort of uh IQ, a fixed trait like IQ.

21:26 Um, things like memory. You can improve your memory marginally, but like things like that tend to have genetic components. But where we looked at variable and malleable things, things like discipline. So you have to remember the the the etymology of the of the word discipline is disciple. What is a disciple? Well, disciple is a student. So the actual idea of self discipline. Is that you're a student of yourself. Right, so we think of discipline uh you know in modern times.

21:55 as as really the way we equate it is like the ability for delayed gratification. Discipline is the ability to withhold gratification. and stay in the moment and and and and just you know run some process over time and not capitulate and you know, Navy SEALs, right? That in a very scary situation Your training shows up and you're disciplined. And that's all true. However, one of the things that is known about discipline is you can prime people for greater or worse discipline. In psychology, we define priming.

22:27 by setting up a series of conditions that's gonna increase the probability of a behavior. And usually that's environmental. Can people become more disciplined? One hundred percent. Absolutely. In fact, William James. Who's one of my intellectual heroes, sort of the father of American psychology. But if anyone's interested, you can go look up William James's.

22:46 You know, what are known as his maxims on habit. And so it begs the question if you're trying to change someone's habits, and habits are one of the things that are changeable. The problem is the longer that you've done a habit, if it's a bad habit, the harder it is to change, right? The old saying that ruts long traveled, grow comfortable. And so discipline is just a habit of mind that that that that evolves into a habit generally of behavior. And so when you're trying to give someone more discipline, one of the things that's really, really important is right out of the gates. is to change the actual behavior because as as Albert Bandura, you know, famously said,

23:23 You know, behavior is a cause of behavior. Like the more you can get someone to do something, the more likely it is to repeat. Um you know, and consistent with that there's a time factor, there's an age factor. You know, Karl Marx said, you know, give me a child to the age of seven and I'll give you a communist for life. And we have these colloquialisms like, you know, you can't teach an old dog new tricks. Well why why do these colloquialisms you know, you know, live live in our conscious collective consciousness for some'cause they're largely true. So the reality about discipline is the quicker you can get it infused into someone's

24:00 habits, the more likely it is they're gonna sustain it through life. If you're trying to change habits later in life, you got to go all in. And as soon as you're aware that you want to change them, Don't wait. Don't hesitate. And you know, one of the other things that William James says, he says is

24:16 Until the new habit is securely rooted in your life. Don't don't suffer an exception to occur. In other words Um, but like just because you think you've got it beat, like you don't then reward yourself with pizza. You know, you if if your goal is to lose weight and you've gone a month of eating healthy, and at the end of a month you're like, Oh, I'm so proud of myself. I'm gonna reward myself with a pizza. It's like You know, it's like what happens after Alcoholics Anonymous. You you meet these people and they're like, Yeah, I'm a recovering alcoholic. And you're like, Wow. Recovering alcoholic.

24:47 When's the last time you've had a drink? They're like, Oh, I haven't had a drink in 20 years. You're like, How is it that you haven't had a drink in 20 years and you're still recovering? Well, what they know. Is that that first drink brings in a whole cluster of behaviors and patterns that cluster together in in sort of these these neural networks. uh that that first drink, you know, could lead to the to to to a bender. And so they really are recovering because twenty years later you still have to work hard to groove the new habit because the old cluster is is is often still in there. So again, if you're trying to get discipline, which is really important,

25:23 Number one, you have to be a student of yourself. Number two, once you decide what you want to be disciplined on, You go all in. Number three, there has to be a behavioral component to it, not just a psychological component. And number four. uh there's an everydayness to it, right? You actually have to sort of work at it every day, you know, just because a habit

25:44 gets entrenched in your life. it doesn't mean that you've won once and for all. You got you gotta keep you gotta keep working at it. You gotta keep sort of every a little a little a little bit every day. Is sort of the key. I like that a lot. I wanna explore the role of environment. In either

26:02 Encouraging or adding friction to discipline. I think environment largely determines behavior in a lot of ways. Would you agree with that? Yeah, I think I think the psychological reacher uh research would show that. You know, Howard Gardiner, who's a developmental psychologist at Harvard, who was the father of the of the idea of multiple intelligence. He's he's just one of these sort of world class once in a generation scholars. You know, he's he's one of the you know, what happens in academia is wherever you end up getting your

26:32 Your PhD, they never let you you teach at the same institution because they call it academic inbreeding, right? So they they want ideas to sort of cross pollinate. But Howard Garner's one of the very few people he got an undergraduate degree at Harvard, masters at Harvard, PhD at Harvard, and then taught at Harvard for forty years. Like he's He's so special that they said we're we're not gonna let you go. And he's another one of my intellectual heroes. And he said something at a conference once that blew my mind and said when you dissect the research on nature and nurture. So you look at, you know, yeah, what we bring to the table as human beings that lead to the behaviors you're talking about, Shane. And then the role of the environment.

27:10 Said what we're starting to realize is they're both more important than we think. They're both really important. And therein lies the difficulty in shaping behavior. When people call me and say, Hey, can you help me? My answer is always I don't know. Like but what what I can do is when you look at ways of thinking. Um, you know, ways of looking at solving the problem that can increase the probability of helping. So I'll give an example. I had a a school teacher call me one time and say, Hey, listen, There's a school teacher and a parent. And said, Hey, you know, my son's he's a great kid. And for some reason he keeps getting in trouble in school and it's starting to affect him. He's getting a a label and a reputation as as a quote unquote bad kid.

27:47 And I've talked to him about it. We've all talked to him. He's he he's he's not trying to get in trouble, he's is getting in trouble. Well yeah, sure, so I go into the school. You have to understand the role of of the environment. So another way psychologists really look at this. You look at the individual

28:04 in the environment around the individual'cause we know that the environment is constantly imposing upon us both consciously and unconsciously. And the term in psychology we use is called situated cognition. Situated cognition that That thinking happens in space. And so go into this classroom.

28:25 Uh take a seat in the back, largely just try to be invisible. Um and after a couple of days I'm watching and what was happening. is unbeknownst to the teacher, the teacher had Sat this kid Next to two of his best friends. who he developed a cluster of habits with outside of school of shenanigans and playfulness, and not not mean spirited, just playful.

28:48 And so what would happen is the teacher'd be trying to teach and the best friend would lean over the kid would try, he would really try. And he was so naive that, you know, he would look and see what his best friend was scribbling, and then he would get caught, and then he was in trouble, and it kept happening. And the solve there was was simple. It was change the seating. Right, so you know, change the seating of the classroom, the school, move the kid to a different place and voila. the behavior got better. You put the kid next to the teacher in the front row instead of in the back row middle.

29:17 And so a lot of times just changing. the environment around the individual Changes the behavior. So you don't need willpower. I'll give it I'll give a perfect example of that. So you take an individual, take a human being. With with the greatest amount of willpower and self discipline there is. And you put them in a casino.

29:36 And you cover the windows, so there's no windows. So they don't know what time it is. And there's no clocks. So once again, you don't know what time it is. Then you pump that building full of pure oxygen.

29:50 So it keeps them awake and alert. So they're natural triggers that make them tired. They no longer get tired. So's no windows. There's no clocks. You pump oxygen into it. You take their money and you exchange it.

30:04 uh for chips And then you give them free alcohol. And then you play a certain kind of music. And all of a sudden, what is known on a probability level That if you can shape the environment around the individual. You can shape their behavior. So oftentimes these are the individuals that walk out of the casino at five AM watching the sunrise.

30:25 And they're like What just happened? You know, I just behaved in ways that that that's not the real me. That's not that's not who I am. And the counter argument is well, clearly it is because this is what you did. And but what you realize is changing the environment around an individual has such a powerful influence. And the three biggies in psychology. The three biggies in psychology are thoughts.

30:49 feelings and actions. What you think. How you feel. In what you do. You know, if you wanna there's this great song by the band Sister Hazel. You know where they say if you want to be somebody else, change your mind.

31:02 Well, that's not always true. More often than not, if you want to be somebody else Change your environment, like change where you are. Um and by changing your environment andor the people around you. all of a sudden the the the the way the dominoes start to fall is is you're a better version of yourself. I I love that.

31:21 What sort of things do you see with people at the top of their game in their environment that wouldn't necessarily appear with people who are not At that level. What's different about their environment? So there's a great book.

31:36 called the talent code, uh by a friend of mine named Daniel Coyle. And and what Daniel did is he did a deep dive into what he calls talent hotbeds so he went to the places That seemed to produce disproportionate talent. So he went to the areas in Russia that were turning out champion tennis players. And he went to South Korea where all these great female golfers were coming from. And he went to the Dominican Pro Republic where they're turning out these incredible young baseball players in a place in Texas

32:08 That was turning out incredible musicians. And he was looking for the pre he was looking for the commonalities, like these talent hopbeds. You know, if you think of uh Van Gogh and his group of artists, like what was it about that time and space that was able to create so many great impressionists? And what Uncovered. was really interesting and and unforeseen. One of the the the the common factors that

32:35 Produces disproportionate talent. is what he I did with there too one of us was called primal cues. Primal cues is that these places tend Not to be uh identified by wealth and comfort. They tend to be the opposite. They tend to be places Where the signaling of the community is like you better find a way to wake make it work. In other words, if this doesn't work out for you, like

32:57 There's no plan B. Like your next best option isn't that good. You know, it's like growing up in a coal mining town. It's like it's it's the old American Horatio Alger stories or John Mellencamp song. It's like You you grow up in an environment, and then all of a sudden that environment gives you an o an opening and an option. And like you're gonna shoot that gap. And these things get triggered in the brain and the body that are called primal cues. Now, it's not that your your your life is in danger, but like Th this is high stake stuff. And so what that does is it sharpens focus.

33:31 It allows the brain to to to to what's called myelinate to so that memory in skill development the velocity of skill development happens more quickly. One of the test questions I used to put on the sport psychology exams for my college students. I would say, Why is it? That a golfer from uh from Isleworth Country Club or Olympia High School has never made it to the PGA tour. And these are very affluent places where you go to the driving range.

33:56 And these kids have the best instructors in the world, the most modern equipment, brand new golf balls hitting off perfect grass. And what you see is they is this scenario dominates junior golf and junior tennis and junior But as the developmental trajectory goes, the game tends to weed these people out because they don't have the resilience and the grit. And the fortitude. Because they were the formative years. Happened in such comfort.

34:24 That when things get hard, they don't know what to do with them. So one of the profiles. of of these talent hopeds is they tend to be places Soccer, like Brazilian, uh Brazilian soccer is another example, where you have to tend to gut it out, and it's some version of natural selection where Wait. Innovation

34:44 um and evolving your game, knowing yourself and skill development are are at a premium. So there's like a natural selection bias at the top for people who are resilient. You can't make it there without being resilient. How do we as parents uh develop resilience in our kids and also importantly How do we develop resilience in ourselves as adults?

35:05 When we talk about like resilience and grit. A lot of times people think that those are causal variables, that they are the things that happen before success. And and that's not untrue. Right. They they they they are. But one of the things you have to understand or you ask the question, like what happens before resilience, right? It's like what Anne Rand said about money. People say that, you know, money is the root of all evil. And Anne Rand flipped the question, she said, Okay, well, what's at the root of all money, right?

35:33 And and the answer is people, right? So is it that money is valuable or evil exists and you know people use money as a mechanism to express their evil. A bit of a circular semantic argument. But one of the things that's known about about um about resilience is it's it's it's critically important. And and when you put it as a variable and psychological model, it tends to wash out Um, you know, things like you know, ability or intelligence. Like it's more important uh in the course of the life cycle. Um right up there with delayed gratification, which is another very predictive variable. So if you just marry, if you're raising kids.

36:09 And you can sort of teach your kids um to delay gratification. and and to be able to withstand um sort of failure and hard things uh and have resilience like like that's a pretty good setup for long term success. But one of the things one of the terms we use in in psychology it's called normative failure. And the idea is that when failure is the norm. Resilience becomes second nature.

36:33 And and there's a biological uh imperative to that. So for example, we know that You know, when when boxers get hit over the course of time their bones calcify. Like like in in in strength. And if you look at any Any uh environment uh ecosystem, you know, for example, use Mount St. Helens, you know, in the early eighties, Mount St. Helens. had a massive volcano and blew this this mountain to smithereens it was a beautiful ecosystem.

37:01 If you go visit Mount Saint Helens, you know, thirty years later, it's remarkable what it was was was you know, fifteen feet of ash and everything seemed dead. And now it's a flourishing, thriving ecosystems. Um, in the forestry services, they now do controlled burns because they know that it's really healthy. for forests to go through fires. And metaphorically that's really, really true of the human condition. In fact, that's captured in in in the Buddhist school of thought a little bit with with the with the symbol of um of the uh lotus flower.

37:34 Right. So the characteristic of the lotus flower is that it's you know, it's it's it's the most beautiful thing. It's a symbol of ultimate divine beauty. But the other characteristic of a lotus flower is that it only grows out of muck. Like if you ever look at the the flower floating on the water, but you look down The the the these things

37:53 sort of emerge out of muck, out of out of what what people would look at and say is is ugliness. And I think in a psychological sense, certainly that's that's true. You know, when it's psychology Eric Erickson, who's a a great de uh developmental psychologist, created the eight stages of life. You know, one of the things that he suggested. Is that

38:15 that that to overprotect your children is to rob them of of their life. Um because you're making fragile people. And so you shouldn't overprotect your children from the hard things in life. And Jordan Peterson, current psychologist, says the same thing. He says, Hey, if your kids are taking risks intelligently, if they're being smart while they're taking risks, like you gotta let it happen. And so what happens is resilience actually tends to be born

38:41 out of learning what to do with failure and in in in in in my experience People call me, usually I'm the last phone call, Shane. Like, you know, if it's a golfer, they've already fired their caddy and fired their swing instructor, and sometimes it's the wife who will call me. The wife will be like, Like, I can't stand to be around him, the dog can't stand to be around him, the children can't stand he's just miserable. And what you realize is when life has stripped away.

39:10 All of these pr you know, ego, generally ego protective mechanisms and left you perfectly raw. No, so I I mentioned Ericsson. Ericsson uses sort of the yin yang uh symbol that Crisis and opportunity are synonymous.

39:28 They're not separate things that Де і крайсис. You get essentially the same amount of opportunity. Anyone who's been through a divorce. you know, knows that. Anyone who's lost a loved one knows that. Anyone who's never had their life blown up. And had to rebuild from nothing and hit quote unquote rock bottom knows exactly what I'm talking about. You know, no one ever

39:50 No one would ever wish. you to be blindsided in life and their life fall apart. But when you actually are living in the room with in in in in in in in the therapeutic sense or in a counselling or coaching sense With people whose lives have bl have been blown to smithereens. This happened oftentimes during the pandemic, it happens during financial crises when people lose everything. Happen with Steve Jobs when he was when he was fired from Apple. Stay hungry, stay foolish.

40:18 He talks about the beautiful insights that began to happen. Because he was unencumbered by the expectations of being an executive. And so what happens is When you lose the baggage of of your your identity, of your ego, of yourself. What fills in the space is the freedom to create.

40:38 And that freedom to create Um is also the freedom to take risks. And you know, it's Janice Joplin, you know, freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose. So when life takes everything away from you, you get that freedom back. Great success, great fulfillment, great happiness in life. Often emerges

40:58 From the mock, from the murk of life, from the failure, from those those painful emotions. That happen uh when we hit rock bottom, and so When it comes to parenting, it's this it's sort of paradoxical because You know, in the early stages um you know of a country, it's like well I every generation would say I want my kids to have it better than I did because there was real suffering. But you hit a tipping point whereby, you know, if you're still running that playbook and you're middle class or upper middle class or wealthy, you know, one of one of the uh I'm working on two books right now. The first one's called Rich and Miserable.

41:35 The world of wealth and the world of abundance and the world of quote unquote success is also imbued With a lot of anxiety and a lot of depression, a lot of drug abuse. And inasmuch as I could tell you I celebrate abundance and I love success, what I can also say is that handing it to your children, making their lives too easy. Giving them a glide path.

41:59 Um and protecting them from taking risk creates fragility. And if you send kids out into life, out into the world fragile. You have done them no service and they are going to have a lot of suffering. When the world comes at them. Um, the way that the world comes at everyone eventually. And so you want to develop resilience in kids.

42:22 It's got to be some version of reality therapy. Like tell them the truth. One of the things you see, I I I've see I see way too much of it, and this is not just well. This is sort of a modern phenomenon. A lot of modern day parenting has nothing to do with the kids. It has to do with vanity. And so when you see these moms or dads at the club.

42:44 whose kid steps out of line a little bit or is being a little bit silly. The parent isn't yelling at the kid. Because they care about the kids long term development. They're yelling at the kid because they themselves are embarrassed. Like it reflects badly on me as the parent. And so what c what what looks like parenting.

43:04 is actually a vanity project. And by the way, kids can spot that. They feel it at every level, and it's not a way to make them feel love. If you want kids to feel loved. You have to spend a lot of time with them.

43:20 You have to tell them the truth. You have to be able to do the hard work of parenting which is taking things away from them, which is also, by the way, gonna inconveni inconvenience you as a parent. The moment you'll know You've succeeded as a parent. Is when your kid is able to look at you and say, Hey, like

43:38 You know, I I don't I don't need your help. Like I got it. Like I'm glad that you're there as a safety net if I need you. But like I got this. 'Cause what you want is Is self reliance like like you know a little bit of autonomy where

43:53 They believe in themselves. Like you the the confidence that your kids need to have. To be successful adult is self confidence, it's belief. That's rooted in their own ability. To solve the hard problems in life and Only way.

44:09 And the only way they're gonna get that is through trial and error. Like like that's not me saying that that's like Mm. Deep amounts of empirical research and social cognitive theory. Uh where where success the equation of success and failure, the math of it.

44:25 Is they have to do a lot of failing and then learn how to succeed in the face of failure. Cause then once that happens Um, the next time they hit failure, their brain triggers into Oh wait. I know what to do with this moment because the last time I failed I kept persisting and

44:42 And I work my way through it. And then I succeeded. And in fact, I'm sorry for for talking so long on the shame, but I'll tell you a really interesting study. I took a bunch of kids. I think it was middle school kids, but it might have been high school. I think it was middle school kids. And they showed them twenty math equations and they said, Okay, how many of these problems do you think you could solve? And every kid gave themselves a score. And then the second thing they did is they asked the kids, how confident are you in your ability to solve these problems? And they got a confidence score, it's actually known as self-efficacy.

45:09 Then they gave the kids the tests. And what they found is the kids that were more confident when they ran into problems. They worked. harder to solve those problems. In other words, if I'm confident in my ability to solve problems, when I run into a difficult thing, I just I keep working at it. This is the persistence That you were talking about earlier. So

45:30 You keep reworking the problem a lot of different ways, and by working at it, I solve it. Then I get to the next one. Kids who didn't have as much confidence. Gave up more quickly. And by giving up more quickly, they wouldn't get it right. So what you realize

45:45 And the i is that it wasn't the academic ability or the IQ or the standardized tests. That foreshadowed the ultimate score. It was the persistence in the face of adversity. How do you develop persistence in the face of adversity and failure? You practice it as a kid.

46:02 Carol Dweck, who's an academic researcher, talks about two kinds of feedback you give kids. You can either praise kids for their intelligence or praise kids for their effort. And it's very known in the educational community that when kids are successful, you say, hey, I'm proud of you. You worked really, really hard on that equation. The next time they go to work at something, they're gonna try harder. If you give them praise saying, Hey, good job. You're really, really smart.

46:27 The next time they run into adversity, essentially what their brain is gonna say is Well I have a fixed amount of intelligence. And the smartness that I have. Isn't solving this.

46:38 Well, I'm just gonna give up because I haven't been praised for my effort. And so one of the best things you can do for your for your kids is to continually reinforce work ethic. continually reinforce um the the you know they have control over their success. The degree to which they're willing to work hard.

46:58 I just wanna take a minute here to reflect on this episode, cause Doctor Gio left a profound impact on me. And one of the things that I I took away from this and I reflected on a lot, I went for a lot of runs and I thought about and I sort of talked to other people about was the sources of advantage. Now Dr. Gio offered five sources of advantage. He said talent, effort, differentiate, process, and be a talent collector. So those are five. If you go back in the episode he explains those. I'm gonna add to those.

47:29 Because I've come up with More. Come up with thirteen in total. So those are five. Let's go to six. Six is patience. Do you have more patience? Do you have the patience to know that you're making progress without visible results?

47:44 A lack of patience. Changes the outcome. Often we know how to get what we want. But what we do is we want it tomorrow. We don't want it in ten years. We know how to get there in ten years. We just work hard. We put our head down. Do what we're supposed to do.

47:59 But we don't want it, so we s we we go for shortcuts. And that lack of patience changes the outcome. Ability. to withstand pain. That pain is not physical pain. I mean it can be physical pain.

48:11 In terms of working out, that's that's definitely Something to consider. But that pain is mental. Can you do something different? Can you be an outcast? Can you be the tall poppy? Can you stand out? Are you willing to differentiate yourself?

48:25 Can you withstand financial pain if you go through a crisis? The ability to take pain applies to every Yeah. Emotional pain, physical pain. Do you crawl up into a ball or are you able

48:40 to withstand that and what can you do to improve the odds that you can withstand these things. There's no time to prepare. for crisis, whether it's a relationship or health crisis or financial crisis. Nobody says, Go home and in two weeks you're gonna get this, you know, this thing is coming. So you got time to get ready. You don't Temperament. This is something I talk about in my book, Clear Thinking. How do you manage the urges that get other people in trouble, the emotional urges and impulses.

49:07 Nine, partner, your partner at home. partner at work. These things matter. If you have the right partner, everything's on easy mode. You bring all the baggage from your relationship with you to work and you bring work.

49:20 into your relationship. You better make sure you have the right partner. That is a huge source of advantage. Ten energy. That one's self explanatory. Eleven Curiosity. Again, self explanatory. Twelve. I'm gonna say luck.

49:35 But You can't really do anything about luck. You can do most Uh out of all these so far you can do a lot. on each of them. Thirteen is positioning.

49:46 Are you in the right position to play on easy mode? Are you playing on easy mode or are you playing on hard mode? And the position you're in at the moment of the situation, the moment of challenge, the moment of circumstance. That doesn't change the fact that there's going to be a moment. Doesn't change that you're gonna get angry. It doesn't change the fact you have to make a decision. What it does change.

50:08 is how easy that decision is. And everybody looks like a genius when they're in a good position, and everybody looks like an idiot when they're in a bad position. Are you playing on easy mode? Are you playing on hard mode? I just thought I'd offer A little bit of insight into how I reflect on each of these episodes. Thank you.

50:37 Thanks for listening and learning with us. For a complete list of episodes, show notes transcripts and more go to fs.blog slash podcast or just Google the Knowledge Project. The Fernand Street blog is also where you can learn more about my new book, Clear Thinking. turning ordinary moments into extraordinary results. It's a transformative guide that hands you the tools to master your fate.

51:02 Sharpen your decision making. And set yourself up for unparalleled success. Lear more at fs dot blog slash clear. Until next time.

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