#835: Ben Patrick (KneesOverToesGuy) — 20-Minute Workouts That Produce Wild Results, From Chronic Knee Pain to Dunking Basketballs, Lessons from Charles Poliquin, Bulletproofing the Lower Body, and More

Transcript from https://podmenti.com/t/865de678bbc76e2b

Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. Wow, that was quite the ejaculation. Sorry for the volume, folks. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris Show. My guest today is Ben Patrick. Ben Patrick is better known as Knee Over Toes Guy.
And you can find him on Instagram and everywhere else as Knees Over Toes Guy. He is the founder of Athletic Truth Group ATG, an online and brick and mortar training system rooted in rehabilitative strength and joint health. After years of debilitating knee and shin pain, including multiple surgeries, he rebuilt his body from the ground up.
And his performance going from sub twenty inch vertical to a documente forty two inch leap. He's the author of Knee Ability Zero and other books on fitness and recovery. He's become a phenomenon online. And I should note there is a companion video for this episode where Ben and I walk through
all of the exercises we discuss together. So if you want to see me with beginners' eyes going through this asking questions with him, then you can check it out. And you can find that on youtube.com slash Tim Ferris. T-I-M-F-E-R-R-I-S. You can also find a video pinned
on Ben's Instagram. That's knees over toes guy. And that runs through a more comprehensive version of what we did in person.
But if you want the minimum effective dose.
Go to
the YouTube dot com slash Tim Ferris and you'll see what we did, especially
making some adjustments for my current back pain. And if you want to see the more comprehensive stuff, you can check out his Instagram. We also get into a lot more than just exercise.
Ben asked me some questions about how to navigate different decisions and integrity and so on in podcasting business, et cetera.
And we actually spend a good amount of time on that towards the end of this conversation, if that's of interest. And uh that is it. Without further ado, please enjoy a wide ranging conversation with
Ben Patrick, and don't forget about the companion videos at youtube.com/slash Tim Ferris, as well as at Knees Over Toes Guy pinned post.
on Instagram.
Thanks for listening.
At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking. Can I answer your personal question?
Now it is in the perfect time.
My cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal enter skeleton.
No
Ben.
I see it.
Brother. Thank you.
Nice to finally spend time together, we did.
a bit of a workout overview, recorded some video, so people will be able to find that.
And we'll put links in the show notes. We'll talk more also about
Things you might pin for people who want a visual reference here, but let's go back in time.
Nicknames.
We're chatting a bit before recording. What was the nickname?
that we were discussing and who gave it to you.
Had a high school basketball coach.
You started calling me.
Old man.
I was so stiff, it take me so long to warm up.
Compared to other players.
I knew I wasn't.
Built well for basketball. I thought I could work my way.
I was just doing crazy workouts from the time I was maybe nine years old.
So by twelve chronic knee pain. So even by high school.
I couldn't get low on my legs.
I think during all that.
Puberty time. Mm-hmm.
Things weren't forming right.
Because I was so stiff. I wasn't getting into my legs the way I should.
Story call me old man.
So we've got
Old man Patrick.
Mm-hmm. In high school.
Flash forward.
Now you're known as
Knees over toes guy.
So something happened in between those two.
Yep. What were the
And we can approach this any number of ways. You could explain why the name.
Or you could talk about maybe catalyz or
Findings that set you on the path that led you to become
He's ever toast guy.
Absolutely.
As you alluded to.
On my Instagram.
U two.
It's pinned where
This kind of stuff we're talking about.
can just go look at it and see it visually like almost
In order.
So
The
Chronic pains and stiffness.
Doctors did think around fourteen probably something happened. I should have had surgery on.
didn't have surgery.
Different things started stacking up by eighteen.
I then did have
Surgery.
Partial kneecap replacement, like part of my kneecap was just floating there.
Squad.
Tendon.
reattached and then had a meniscus.
Transplant.
And then it took about a year and a half.
Because I was so extreme s stiff, I was immobilised and
Really couldn't even run for like a year and a half.
That kinda set off a chain of things.
By then my right knee was hurting worse than my left knee ever had. Yeah. I mean that happened when I had my left shoulder surgically reconstructed.
After the year, year and a half it took to finally rehab the left, the right was screaming.
So
I was in a pretty dark place because considering my right knee hurt worse than my left knee ever had. I'm like
I I probably need
Surgery on the right knee now.
And I had gotten from the surgeries and I had stayed on painkillers and
Parents didn't know.
My girlfriend didn't know.
Who's my wife now?
Staying on the painkillers. Yeah. Right.
I was just like popping them.
And then
I stumbled on
Some stuff from
Charles Polliquin.
Oh you had.
On your podcast. Yeah, spent a lot of time with Charles back in the day.
Yeah.
And he had various information.
That
Was very clear that it was like
No no no.
What we've
In the fitness world had all been taught of
Don't let your knee over your toes.
Yeah, it's stuff saying.
No, this is actually the athlete's
He helps them prevent injury and rehab.
With
Training that position.
And just for people who are trying to imagine what this means. So if you were to say
be in a squat position.
keeping your shins vertical or your knees are
aligned over your angles.
That would be the let's just call it
Pre exposure to polyquin.
Sacred cow.
At least in some of the
A lot of the sort of exercise science worlds.
Do not let your knees travel.
Over your toes. Yeah. Right. Keep your shins vertical. Yeah.
So Charles is saying quite the opposite.
Yeah.
And good point there.
It was totally under

Nineteen seventies.
Exercise science is
Becoming a thing in school.
And
They found that when the knee goes over the toe
Then there's more pressure on the knee.
So what what into
Textbooks.
Was showing.
When you exercise.
Don't lay your knee over your toes.
Now for someone to compare.
Think about
Stepping down the stairs and stop.
You take a step downstairs, stop.
You're loading your knee.
Over your toes.
Every single step you take downstairs.
So
When I
started studying Charles Paulaquin.
Because of what I had been through.
For me instantly.
I knew there was something here.
'Cause I had tried all the mainstream methods.
Of no knees over toes.
So
The first thing then
That I could tell.
But
Allowed me to get off the painkillers.
was dragging a sled
Backwards.
So every step I take.
My knee is over my toes.
It's almost like if someone walked backward up a hill.
To rehab.
Rather than going down the hill.
And that's actually the progression of the rehab is
Walking backwards.
Trying to add resistance to walking backwards, which is gentler.
To then
I use a slant board, but someone could really
You could roll up a towel to elevate your heel.
You could start with your heel flat, like you don't have to even elevate the heel to start.
Where you actually work on stepping down. So you're actually controlling the motion.
at your pain free level of stepping down. Even if you can't I couldn't do a six inch step.
I could maybe control a couple inches.
And you're using high repetitions, as if you were
A gymnast.
When you say you can only do a couple of inches, can you just paint a picture for what that means?
Let's say you're walking down the stairs.
Each stair is probably six inches.
I couldn't control that motion.
Without pain.
I had to sort of clunk my way down the stairs.
Ease up pressure with the upper body.
I couldn't
Control.
Step by step.
without my knee hurting.
But someone can do less.
Then a six inch tear.
So the walking backward
As a
Warm up.
You're getting circulation.
We're talking maybe stacking up
One hundred, two hundred yards.
Backward.
Which was didn't hurt.
And then was getting circulation, getting some strength. So that was what I felt like okay.
I can get off the painkillers now'cause I have this way
Of
naturally reducing the pain and getting some strength going.
in a knee pressure position.
And let me just sidebar quickly for folks.
I have only in the last handful of years I'd use sleds a lot, but I was always pushing.
It's only in the last handful of years.
And
You have met these guys as well, but in Cima
Young and
Mark Bell.
And
Of course, Mark Bell.
used to train with.
He was at Westside Barbell.
Louis Simmons.
You mentioned his name when we were recording earlier.
I have come to appreciate
Just
Incredibly therapeutic.
this pulling of the sled is. Which you could do with
A band around a harness around the waist. You could do it with a vest.
You could
Simply hold on.
Two.
That's typically how I've seen Mark do it, for instance.
Where you're effectively just holding on to handles with a strap that attaches you to the sled.
Or
Rehabilitation for prehab.
for building in some insurance policy for the knees. It is
Just incredibly effective, but also so elegant. It's so simple.
And hard to hurt yourself.
Now, of course, talk to your doctor. I don't pretend to be one on the internet.
But that's all I wanted to say was
Personally, I can also vouch for this. Did you come across that through Polyquin?
Charles Polliquin.
He was interviewed for this article where he helped an Olympic athlete.
Who wasn't gonna be able to compete in the Olympics.
And they started going backward with the sled.
often'cause they could recover fast.
And he was able to get back and actually win a medal.
At the Olympics.
So I'm not advising someone to rush.
But that was a unique case where
This might be the guy's only chance. Ever. Yeah.
So that kinda sold me on it.
And then once I was experiencing it, I was like, okay, I can see there's something here. It's not like that solved all my problems. That was enough for me.
In my state.
to
Be willing to get off the painkillers.
And then start exploring.
Further stuff.
How long did it take you to get off of the painkillers after you started doing the sled work?
Well
I remember
After
The first
Week.
Of doing this.
I then intentionally
That didn't.
mean all my pain was gone, but it was like
I wanted to experience this route.
and not try to shield the pain anymore.
So within a week I knew, okay, there's something different here.
of progressing the knee over the toes rather than avoiding the knee over the toes.
I didn't really want to think about any further progressions, but
That gave me something I could do.
Didn't hurt.
And to give someone an idea on the safety.
We can't say anything is a hundred percent safe, but
Real numbers.
At the gym I eventually made
Coached thousands.
Of group.
Training sessions.
So it it wound up being I count it like over a hundred thousand times that I coached people.
On the sled. No one was ever hurt.
doing this line.
It could happen.

visual that we actually did that which was I feel like the best visual to explain people.
My mom is seventy.
One.
We put a thousand pounds on the sled.
Okay.
And had her try to drag it backwards. Mm-hmm.
She couldn't budget.
But she was fine.
People are gonna be wondering why you would do that to your mom.
More people are like
Oh, now I get why it's safe.
Because the thousand pounds that she's trying to drag is not bearing down on her.
So when you're trying to drag a weight
It probably has less potential.
Two
Bodybuild and
Create that.
breakdown that turns into new muscle tissue and stuff.
But it has
more potential for
Getting into something with safety.
Without pain.
That was my stepping stone.
Charles Paulquin was
This was before social media.
So
I didn't actually see any videos.
of any of the stuff. I had to really decipher articles.
I had to self teach based

And through my
Just
Self experimenting.
I was able to get to where
I could play basketball really hard without my knees hurting.
What other ingredients were added to the cocktail outside of the backwards sled poles?
So you have the backward sled pulse.
Then it was really clear that he was getting people into a full range of motion squat.

My whole life in basketball was like
Don't do any.
Tip.
Squats.
Your knee goes over your toes.
So sort of don't go below ninety degrees and don't let your knee over your toes were the two prevailing things.
And I went to
Six, eight, ten trainers.
Maybe that was bad luck that none of those trainers
New differently.
It does seem like it was the prevailing way. And having been on basketball teams now.
Having coached.
I could safely estimate that ninety nine percent of basketball teams
Don't
Squat with a full range of motion.
I
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Yeah.
Yeah.
Ultra polyquinism.
He had quite a few of these.
I'll at some point I'll tell you the origin story, how I connected with Charles, which is pretty funny.
But this is one of his lines. And this is I'll give credit where credit's to. This is from outside online, but
Strength is gained in the range it is trained.
Very uh Susian as they put it.
And
You just see this over and over again.
And I've interviewed, for instance
Coach Christopher Summer, who used to be the men's national gymnastics coach.
And
You look at a lot of say
Cases of
What people might consider inflexibility.
And it's just the body being very smart.
To guard itself.
Against injury where it is weak.
at the extent of your range of motion, right?
And when you start to develop strength at the end range.
All of a sudden.
Bada bing but a boom.
Your
quote unquote flexibility improves, right? Because the body is very, very intelligent.
And it's guarding you against injury.
I just wanted to mention the the polyquinism because I think it puts a fine point.
on some of what you're saying.
Right. It's like if you're never getting into
a full squat position, if you ever engage in anything that puts you into those positions.
Your foot slips while you're playing.
Intermural soccer, who knows, right?
you're gonna be potentially in a world of hurt.
No, I appreciate that.
And I think to make it
An effective podcast for people.
Please keep.
Chiming in.
Even
For our body.
This is the mindset.
The efficiency.
The eighty percent of the results from twenty percent.
Uh
This is the stuff that helps me.
Make my system.
So it's
Hugely inspired by that. And
Outside of my videos.
I don't have a ton to say here, so please keep it keep it coming. Make it interesting for people to say. I'll keep prompting. Yeah. But please on the deep squat.
What I have to offer is
Lots of experience trying to help people who
Can't figure out how to apply this stuff.
Deep squats hurting is super common.
People feeling like they don't have the mobility to get into a deep squat.
Elevating your heels a bit.
Can help people get lower on a squad.
and holding a weight out in front of you.
reduces the pressure on the knee.
Do you recommend people do?
what people would envision as a normal squat. So both feet on the ground, same plane.
Or
One exercise that you're very well known for.
The ATG split squat or front foot elevated.
Split squad.
Would you have them start?
With that in place of
The
Prototypical.
Squat. How do you think about that?
I see it in relation to age almost like a
Reverse system meaning
My kids are three and five. Their squats are incredible.
I'm not like wait until you progress No they like.
So it's almost like in youth.
My whole system.
For the knees.
Is if I can have you comfortable
and able to be getting stronger.
controlling a full range of motion squat.
Where you feel like you don't have to stop.
before you get all the way down, but also where you feel like you don't have to bounce to get out of it.
Like where you're able to own it.
You can control it all the way down.
Pause and then explode up without pain.
Able to get stronger.
Kids naturally have that.
And so
When I'm coaching, I volunteer at a school.
I've had to coach fifty kids at a time.
I set up.
Ten slant boards.
Some kids need to elevat the heel, some don't.
They're able to w back their heels up.
Whatever they want.
Everyone can get down.
Into a deep squat without pain.
Some
Need to hold some weight out in front of them.
to get down there.
But the younger they are.
A hundred percent can do it. Like all little toddlers can deep squat.
Why does the weight in front of you?
Help someone to get into
A squatted position, whether the heels are elevated or not.
It's simply a counterbalance.
So
When you go to squat down and you think about that for someone with knee pain, you think about that pressure.
Holding the weight on front.
Yeah.
Lean back a bit.
Not have to go.
U your knee?
Doesn't have to go as far over your toes.
So
I'm trying to help people get
Better at knees over toes.
not work through pain in the process.
gradually coax that ability.
Or if they've already got it, we can fortify it super easily.
So a progression.
Using common weights.
'Cause it's mostly gonna be adults listening to this.
Let's say you roll up a towel on the floor.
And you lift your heels up onto it.
to simulate some more of that mobility get low and you hold a
twenty five pound plate out in front of you.
you get where you can lower down pain free in a squat.
Let's say five reps controlling down.
Okay, now let's say you hold a forty five pound plate, not all the way out in front of you.
Just in front of your knees.
Get to where that's
Pain free.
Five reps, let's say.
And now you hold.
A forty five or more pound kettlebell.
Not
Far out in front of you, but kind of above.
Your thighs.
Yeah.
And then
Depending on a person's goals, what would be even closer than that would be a bar on
Front.
So
Depending on sports goals.
I find with all students I want them to be able to hold a kettlebell.
And get down in a deep squat without pain. That's a pretty good
I have to get down and pick up
One kid, two kids, I got a third kid on the way. I got like I have to squat down.
If you've got to pick up two toddlers.
You can't just bend your back over. You can for one.
Think about trying to pick up two little bodies.
You got a deep squat.
So
I got a deep squat with some load.
Saying everyone has to barbell squat.
That's just not true.
But I do think it would be
A
common sense goal for everyone to be able to hold a kettlebell.
And squat all the way down.
Without pain.
Well you to fact check me if I'm
off base here, but I would like to come back to the split squat for a second.
Mm-hmm.
Particularly with that front foot elevated. So imagine that
You had
Some place in your house, I'm making this up where there's one step up. Maybe it's from like living room to the kitchen or vice versa.
Could just as easily as we did earlier be like too thick.
Forty five pound plates if they're kinda like the bumper plate style.
So whatever that might be.
Six to eight inches, whatever the the height happens to be.
You've got one foot on that.
Then uh you have your other leg is far back.
As is pain free.
And you go down into
A squad.
to the extent that you can be pain free in that range of motion.
And your knee, if you
build up to it. Maybe you'll get there naturally quickly.
Your front knee is gonna project way over your
Toss.
And
The reason that I wanted to come back to this is A, because I've derived so much value from this and so much
pain reduction in the back.
And
The
Third is from a form perspective.
I wouldn't want people
who have never explored really deep squatting.
to jump into
doing squatting where they're
Rounding the low back.
At the
bottom most portion of the squad.
So just to paint a picture for folks, maybe they've heard these terms, but if you imagine your
Hips, your pelvis.
Like a glass of wine.
If you're pouring wine out the front.
That's anterior pelvic tilt. If you're pouring wine out the back, that's posterior pelvic tilt.
If you go into the bottom of a squat, especially if you're loading yourself up with a barbell or something.
And you have a lot of posterior pelvic tilt.
Some people call that the butt wank at the bottom. You can really hurt yourself.
And I was guilty of that at one point.
And
I like the safety profile.
And I don't wanna
Make anything sound risk free, of course. But of all the exercises that I've seen, especially under control, slow
Cadence.
the front foot elevated split squat, it seems harder
to commit cardinal sins where you're gonna injure yourself.
Is that a fair statement?
I think so, and
That was
For someone listening.
Who is confused on what we're talking about. Yeah.
Now you understand where I was when I was nineteen, trying to figure this out without seeing visuals. Yeah.
I have five
Bar made the most
Step by step.
Free videos.
Yep.
And how to use I mean a stairwell.
Is a near perfect device.
You have balance to hold on.
Which is what I did in the beginning.
I had my front foot two steps up.
Holding onto a railing with one hand.
And then
Just work the way down.
That's how my mom has mostly done them.
She's seventy one.
If you see her sprint, it's like
I'm gonna need to see a birth certificate.
That's wild. Seventy one, your mom is My mom is more impressive than like
I try.
I can't get
My mom can get more views than I can when I talk to her. So just to give voice, it certainly this pops into my mind. I'm like, Wait a second.
Alright, so do you just come from
thoroughbred genetic stock. I mean this this sounds kind of
Outrageous.
I mean, has your mom been sprinting her whole life? Did she have a period where she couldn't do it?
I started training her because her hips were deteriorating.
She then had a fall.
Sort of.
Chronic hip issue began.
And so I've been training my mom
Or going on eight years.
And I wound up at my gym. I had a whole women's class, people of all ages
Grandmas
Young moms.
Everything in between.
And then my dad.
Is more like me, Mr. Fragile.
The broken bones, the knees.
I think that'll be my new podcast name, the Mr. Fragile Show.
When I was a kid I went to a speed class to try to get faster and he signed up with me.
And this is it.
A youth speed class. So there was no
Warm up.
structure. It was just okay, here's the first run. And he didn't get to his second step and pulled his hamstring. And so
I
Come more from his fragile side. Yeah.
My mom's been working from a desk for fifty years, so we don't really know what
She ran when she was a young girl.
Probably.
Pretty athletic.
But

Keep doing sports or anything.
And
generally ate well, stuff like that. But now the hip is
Deteriorating.
I remember going to visit her after she had a fall and I'm like
I was
Didn't work.
I'd her start coming to the gym.
So she fell in love with the sled.
Eight years?
She's been sledding regularly.
She's very gentle with her program.
She spends maybe ten, fifteen minutes a day.
And similarly I work out only
twice a week. It's a bit different for me because I'm raising toddlers running a business. So it's like I know I can
carve out my time to exercise twice a week.
Me and my mom, we do all the same exercises, basically, just at different levels.
But that split squat.
She credits.
With
Fixing our hip problems.
She's got great mobility with the grandkids.
She slowly coaxed my dad along, so my dad


Fix up old pains and stuff. So
There's some mixture of good genetics. Definitely not like my dad never was able to
Grab the rim or anything like that.
And I was the same. Like I
In basketball. I went through my high school career unable to grab the rim.
And now.
Not that much proof, but
Okay, I'm thirty four.
I've been dunking for over a decade without having any problem.
I was your your video guy film me dunking out on that
Concrete court and
For me it's the fact that I can
Go.
Play.
And
That's what I train for.
We don't really know genetically. Do I have good genetics, bad genetics? Somewhere. Yeah, I'm not trying to just it was more like my seventy one year old mom is sprinting. I'm like, Wait a minute. Hold the breath. I just wanted to unpack that. So thank you for that. If I were to ask your mom
All right.
You can only pick
Three or four.
Exercises.
That's it.
That you get to continue with. You've had eight years
To trial and error and try a bunch of stuff.
What do you think she would respond with of the like three or four?
I know.
She would do the slide.
Forward and backward.
That became
way of life at her gym and she's kept it up ever since.
I know.
She would do that.
Full range of motion.
What you
varies based on the person what that means. But where you're
Not stopping short, you're embracing your flexibility.
Full range of motion split squat.
I know those would be her top two and then I know she would throw something in for the posterior.
I'll have to ask her what is her favorite today in the video I showed
The three main different
Posterior exercise. You just had to hazard a guess. What do you think she might choose?
I think she would choose the way that we use that back extension machine because she works from a desk. And so particularly when you put that
Full split squat which stretches the front of the hip.
With then
Where you're getting to squeeze those glutes.
That
sets that pelvis that it's almost like whether someone has posterior or anterior, it seems to benefit everyone.
Because you're getting both sides.
I think she would do that one.
All right. And uh again, just a reminder for folks, we're gonna link to everything and you're gonna have videos pinned.
And just search Mizer for To's guy for all the platforms and you'll find those. What else did you pick up from Polyquin, if anything comes to mind?
Let's start there.
And then I'll trade with you.
So many gems. Oh
That's a tough question. It is. Sadly.
Charles is no longer with us.
Got the phone call about it.
Pretty much immediately.
After he died, which was very sad.
Very tragic.
Way too early. But
Anything else come to mind?
Okay. I can buy you some time if you want.
He was
Trying to master everything.
From
He's helping bodybuilders.
Athletes.
The thing he told me so only one time.
When I finally had the
money and freedom to go see he came to America, did seminar
And
He said
This was towards the end.
He says,
Only regret was not getting into flexibility sooner.
And you know he was.
A wealth of strength knowledge.
A lot of that strength relating to range of motion.
That definitely left an impact on me.
That he West J had gotten into that sooner.
And the occlusions that I've come to is you can see my style of training.
The way I stretch wouldn't be how someone would normally think of stretching.
But just the idea of
Your strength and your flexibility, really getting those into harmony to where the positions that you're flexible in, you feel strong in those positions.
And so I've
Really explored that.
Deeply now. Compared to let's say.
Look, people are gonna have
Way more experience in bodybuilding.
Powerlifting.
Strong these kind of things.
And Charles had way more experience there than me. So I think that was
If someone
goes to my pages and sees the style that I train.
I feel like that was the gem that was
Just what I needed that gave me now like
The systems.
That I love.
And also
Getting strength and flexibility or mobility and harmony.
Can sometimes mean that you're training both at the same time.
Often can mean that. And
We were recording earlier and
Not that I'm gonna win any gold medals in the split squat, but like my range of motion's pretty good, all things considered.
And uh
I credit that to doing the movement.
And also
I gave him a shout out when we were recording.
Jersey Gregorette.
Some credit where credit is due.
who holds multiple world records or did in master's Olympic weightlifting.
He is he's gotta be close to seventy, if not seventy now. He can still do
He can stand on a balance board like an Indo board with a fully loaded barbell.
and do an Asta Heels Olympic snatch.
At his age. It is unbelievable. His wife also holds a few world records. She can do the same thing.
Their sustained atleticism is just beyond.
Incredible.
And for ankle mobility, he had me doing
Basically one or two reps on the minute.
Overhead.
Squats so I'm holding a barbell overhead, but we're talking bar maybe plus five pounds on either side, very lightweights.
Just doing one rep on the minute for like ten to
twenty.
Mm. That's it.
And
By greasing the groove in that way.
I went from basically zero ankle mobility, lots of injuries, still a lot of lateral instability.
to being able to do
What we did earlier, which is frankly.
Years after I did that training.
It's been really durable, which is wild.
One of the points that
I
hear you making that I see reflected in a lot of what you do is it
You don't necessarily have to do
absolutely don't have to do for most things, like an hour of strength training every other day plus an hour of
Stretching.
every day or every other day. You just do not, that is not necessary for most people at all.
Like the surface area for injury goes up also when you're throwing everything in the kitchen sink.
With lots and lots of hours.
And certainly, I mean, I had conversations with Charles back in the day where
We would talk about some of these professional athletes, let's just say NFL players.
Who have
Five six percent body fat. You know, they destroyed the combine. They're these absolute phenoms and
I would ask him what are they.
What do they eat for their diet? And he'd be like, Oh, Wendy's for breakfast, Burger King for lunch, McDonald's for dinner. I mean
you have to be very careful that you're not modeling your training on mutants.
So I'll I'll just pull out a couple of things from Charles. So I first met
Charles because he reached out to me after reading the four hour work week, my first book.
And he had applied a lot of it to his business and
His productivity and I think at the time.
He didn't realize this, but I had been exposed to tons of his stuff just as you had through magazines.
Way back in the day.
And
He reached out and he's like, You don't know who I am. And I was like, Well, actually that's funny, because I do know I do know who you are.
And then we connected
And Charles ended up
In the four hour body.
He introduced me to
Myofascial release and active release technique.
And there's some before and after photos.
with internal rotation on the shoulder in the four hour body that are
Unbelievable. They look like
they were staged because the the gains in range of motion are so significant.
He was right about so many things, wasn't right about everything, but there's so many things that Charles did.
That ended up
Being proven out.
through studies and data collection later in exercise science and other fields is pretty remarkable.
I mean he got a lot of things right.
It was
So dedicated. I forget the exact number, but he learned a bunch of different languages.
Just so that he could read essentially everything that's going to be.
had been written about exercise. Yeah. In in in the source language. Right.

What a maniac. Also Cantancherous is
Fuck. Oh my God. He was so salty. And uh part of his charm. One of a kind. Who else has influenced?
You're thinking on
Exercise.
And
Movement.
Just broadly speaking, your way of training.
Charles was really cool about crediting where he learned different things.
And so that's something I've kept in and it also gave me the idea that like
Okay, there might be
real gems in quite a few areas.
So
I know you've talked about
Gymnastic rings.
Okay.
Doing
Rows and pull ups with gymnastics rings.
I do one set to burn out of each per week.
That saves me so much time and gives me a pretty balanced
upper back for my goals. So like there's a gem.
that Paul didn't teach me, but his general mindset of learning.
I'm just gonna pause to ask you to repeat something you told me earlier. Where did Charles figure out the backward sled pulling?
Oh man, such a cool story. If you want to talk about polling from unusual places. Yeah. So Charles.
Wait.

Westside Barbell in Ohio
led by Louis Simmons.
Who was creating the strongest power lifters in the world.
And Louis
was jealous of these uh
Finland
Power lifters.
Of their squats and they
Said that their secret weapon was
Their day job was dragging trees.

So Louis invented the idea of dragging weight as a form of exercise.
And then that became a way of life.
At Westside Barbell.
One of Louis Simmons' disciples, Dave Tate.
Oh.
made the if you've heard of Elite FTS, they made the prowler style slide, all kinds of amazing stuff.
I'm gonna see Dave in in two weeks actually for the first time.
Dave has a quote that's like
We didn't
Have warm ups.
It was Louis Simmons just telling him.
Hey.
Before you train.
Go out to the parking lot and drag the sled.
Like we didn't have shit called warm ups, it was called
The stuff you do before you train.
And people are like How long, how many sets and refs? I I don't know. It was X amount of times down the parking lot. Oh, how long was the parking lot? Don't know.
So it's it was cool the history there, but it's cool how
Charles Paulquin.
Just
Go to the source. You'd go to the source in Europe or Ohio or wherever it was.
He would go to the source.
And then it was like I told you, it was this article of where he used the backward sled for knee rehab for this Olympic athlete that kind of
Gave me a stepping stone to all this stuff.
Yeah, if people also want to look up Louis Simmons and his writing.
Online.
Lot of amazing
tidbits to be found to this day in a lot of his writing and West Side Barball for a period of time, it was just one of those.
Factories for mutants.
That and of course there's some selection bias if people are traveling to the Mecca to station themselves there to train. There's a little bit of selection bias, but
The results were just so
Incredible.
And the number of world records broken.
And the number of innovations.
Whether that's
Say chains.
to provide more resistance as you get into stronger ranges of motion.
With
Whether it's deadlift or anything else. I mean bands and so on. I mean a lot of what you see
That's propagated throughout the
Jim Universe.
Started there.
Or at least was
codified and sort of formalized in some way there.
So that was a great one.
One that I think would be
Inaccurate if we missed.
There was a bodybuilder named Bob.
Gaida.
G A J D A
Bad.
Don't know that name.
Okay.
He was Mr. Universe.
Like right before bodybuilding really blew up. And now these are
His words, he worked at the Chicago Y M CA. His passion was helping get kids off the streets, off drugs, doing bodybuilding.
He's Mr. Universe.
He goes into the lockers one day and sees people shooting up drugs, steroids, like this was the beginning.
Of steroids.
When I say this people are like, Oh no, Bob was on steroids too. Look, this is Bob's story.
Bob Story?
What you can look up.
Is he was Mr. Olympia?
When he quit.
Not a lot of people.
are gonna quit.
Right when guess what he was getting offered? The first protein shake deals.
So there wasn't money in what he was doing.
All of a sudden.
There was money in what
In bodybuilding.
And guys were doing steroids.
And he quit.
When someone turns down money, I feel like there's a you know
I believe what he's saying.
And he wound up then getting into sort of like my passion of helping people.
Enjoy life without breaking down.
And
He invented this.
device that he called a Dart, D A R D. I think it was dynamic axial resistance device.
Okay. It didn't catch on. It didn't uh
By the time I was studying this, you couldn't even buy it anywhere.


business that worked out.
But it allowed you to do the opposite of a calf race.
And strengthen the front chin muscles.
Oh god it. T B L Yeah. So one of the things I do that's really unusual.
And
Charles Polliquin did calf training, did Tibialis training. Lots of coaches have done this. Bob was the creator.
And
Really
Had a big impact on me, and in my work out style.
Which I hadn't seen anyone doing.
I go.
From the resistance forward and backward.
With the sled.
To then.
Working my lower leg muscles.
So with the sledding you're pushing through your feet in various ways. I mean you're working all kinds of stuff.
My mindset was like okay.
Move the body forward and backward.
Then
start addressing the body from the ground up. Let's get some extra abil like before we even get into the knees. I found
Extra de sensitization before getting into the knee work by doing the lower leg work after the sled work.
Maybe it was just because the sled burns your legs and you get a little break.
But
We can't say it's a bad thing to have some extra ability.
In the front and back of our shins.
And so
An equipment company reached out, said like
This is when the knees over toes guy was starting to catch on on social media. Like, is there anything that doesn't exist that you think should exist? I'm like
Yeah, like there should be
This
Dard Bart.
But I told him to call it a Tib Bar.
To make it simple for people'cause it's the anterior front.
Tibby Alice. Tibia is your shin dog. I'm I'm going to hell, but I mean it's it's it's a hard one to sell. Yeah. So
With the knees over toast guy stuff I could see, okay, I've got pretty good skill here at
Helping
People understand.
Stuff.
I think Tib Baron.
And now it's a pretty common device. Like you can even go on Amazon.
Bye.
Tip bars.
I mean, there's like ten sellers now. I have the
By far the lowest price for an American made Tib bar.
I don't sell the most tid bars.
Pretty much anything that I make
In America, someone's gonna make more moneying in China.
And that's actually at first it seemed annoying, but now I'm like
It's actually pretty cool, like everyone wins.
I can make
A nice living.
Pursuing American made on everything I do.
And like
People are gonna copy it.
Because the price is gonna be higher.
American made.
All right, everyone went. You can get it cheaper from someone making it in China.
And that doesn't mean all my stuff is made in America. I'm pursuing all my stuff made in America. And anything on my website, I don't play games with people. It says A T G U S A, then you know.
It says that it's main American.
So this was a really cool device, particularly for rehab. But even for me, like what I showed you in my video.
You can put a butt against the wall.
With no equipment whatsoever, raise your toes.
And do that for a while and
Burn out.
And get a
Reverse calf race, to be honest, race. Yeah, if you basically
I'll just paint a picture for folks.
You're standing.
Facing away from a wall. Maybe your heels are
A foot away from the wall? Your heels? One to two feet. Yeah, one to two feet.
Then you lean back against the wall.
Now.
Take your upper back off of the wall. So it's just kind of your hips and low back against the wall.
So you're not cheating.
Your legs are locked.
Right. Your knees are locked.
And then you're lifting.
Your toes.
To the greatest extent that you can.
And
the nest point you added to that and I was like, Oh, that's actually very
Smart and it's
Particularly.
I would say helpful.
For someone like me who's I've basically torn everything in both ankles. Too many

That
Basically lifting
the foot as much as possible, then going down on the pinky side, then coming up and going down on the big toe side and alternating back and forth like that. I could see helping also with some of the lateral stability issues that I have.
I
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I
So
We were chatting a bit before recording about some of your different pieces of equipment and I told you that I really liked your wrist bar. So the wrist bar is
Imagine a
Baton.
Like you would hand off to someone in a relay race.
But at one end, half of it is
Thick enough. I don't know what the exact diameter is. Let's call it.
two two and a half inches that you can plate load. You can put an Olympic plate.
on that and then secure it.
Which makes it very interesting because you can work with progressive resistance, right?
And for me, that was important and will be important. I'm six weeks after elbow surgery, so I'm not quite there yet.
But for sort of supination and pronation.
Whether I'm doing isometrics or otherwise.
And
It's very small, very portable.
And uh
One of the advantages I you know, we were chatting to Well but why don't you just tell the story and then I can add some color if need be.
I put this bar in Five Bullet Friday, which is my newsletter that goes out to
Two million plus subscribers.
There's

At just like
sheer luck, like when you won something at the fair that you thought you went something.
One of those things.
highlight just lucky moments.
Is we're just seeing.
The wrist bar sales just
Going nuts.
So my staff like what the heck is going on? Like why are we selling so many wrist bar and we quickly
Trace down that it was because of you.
That's like an old time business moment.
And that's made in America, so we're able to basically just make'em to order and just quickly service anyone everyone. So that last part is important, right?'Cause I think you mentioned it was like
more units than like the history of the bar up to that point or something.
And
I try to give people a heads up if something is gonna land in the newsletter because what can end up happening, as one of my fans termed it.
The hug of death. So the hug of death can take a number of different forms. It could be a website crashing, but it could also be
Where someone has a long
lead time on ordering inventory. Let's just say they're getting it from China.
Not that that's intrinsically bad. I'm not saying that that is. But let's just say for them to get an order, they have certain minimums and so on, and they believe that
These sales from the newsletter are going to continue at that velocity.
And they only had a hundred in stock. Now they order two thousand because they expect to be able to move those and they don't. The hug of death is uh oh.
I'm not gonna make this money back.
And uh companies, small companies in particular can go under if they
Miscage stuff like that.
So you had the advantage.
Where
You're making them.
I mean
From a global perspective, right around the corner.
So you could do just in time inventory. Yeah, we didn't even have to
order a batch, we were just able to fulfill the orders.
Awesome family in Minnesota.
Who does stuff for a variety of
people in fitness, but reached out to me a few years back and
Has really helped me to
To make some cool stuff American made and
What other
Principles.
topics exercises we like to talk about. Maybe one way to edge into
Starting point for that.
is before
Coming here to do this recording and we did some movement earlier.
I did what I've done a a number of different times.
'Cause your name has come up over the years and I've looked at your videos and watched
A lot of them.
Sorted your videos by most popular.
I'm sure a lot of people do that as a way to produce like a
manageable shopping list of videos. So my question for you is
Which videos
were not anointed by the YouTube gods.
Or for whatever reason.
have not had the views that you would like where you're like, if I could point out one video that I wish people paid more attention to.
Could be any video.
But like your greatest hits don't need the help.
In a sense.
Maybe you'd like to mention one of'em, but if there's a lesser known video where you're like, Man
This one's really
I think.
quite important and it hasn't had
The visibility?
So I just made
A video
Really recapping all my knowledge.
because of going on this podcast. I didn't say in the video you don't want to jinx it like hey guys I'm going on Tim Ferris and then you get canceled. Right.
But I made it for this podcast and
Happens to be doing really well. Yeah.
I've found that the videos I put out that really
hit home and help people.
then long term wind up doing well.
So for me it's almost like
My experience has been the better videos do have more views.
'Cause I try to be really careful to never lie in a YouTube title.
What I have to look out for, which
I'll still have to check it on your video'cause who knows on your staff who's gonna title it.

People have me on a river and then it's like I found one that's like
And they've since corrected it.
But it said fix knee pain.
Guaranteed in sixty seconds. The only I won't have a video with that time.
exercise you'll ever caps need.
And so
Sure enough.
The guy.
Great.
Channel. Great guy.
Very busy.
naturally hired a professional company.
And then it actually alerted him and he found a bunch of
Why it's like that in the titles.
So because of that
You can get a lot of views if you lie in the title.
Even for me, I'm not saying this from a point of perfection.
There was one that's so hard. I think I've kept it up and sometimes I go back and forth.
I had titled it
This was
Four or five years ago.
How to make yourself a world class athlete. And I use all these stories of
People weren't.
world class athletes and made themselves world class athlete. But still that was the closest one I can remember.
That I feel like was potentially a lie.
Now you'll pin the video that you refer to, which is sort of the recap of a lot of what we're talking about visually. Yep.
Do you recall the title of that?
Yeah.
Minimalistic
Workout program with sets and reps. Mm-hmm.
Yeah. There's no
No fluff. Yeah.
So what's funny is that
So now to get views, it really is about
The content itself.
Not the title.
So
It doesn't say knees over toes, it doesn't say fixed knee pain because there's these key words that you should get fused.
So it it just says minimalistic
Work out.
Program with sets and reps.
It's doing great.
But that's the most recent one I made.
for this podcast for someone to
Not beat around the bush, get all the key information. It even gives you sets and right, it gives you my actual program. It's not a theoretical program.
These are the two workouts I do a week.
All the people I train are on very similar versions of this.
And
I want to
Give people a taste of
Some of what we recorded earlier in case they don't see it.
And in effect I'll
summarized, but feel free to jump in.
Because I'm a stickler for detail.
And I like exact recipes could be my
O C D screaming at the back of my head, which is pretty often.
But
The point you made.
Or at least
That I heard.
was
You're not really a magic sets and reps guy in terms of some
Goldilocks perfect protocol and
The reason I bring that up is that
Just like you can regress range of motion in a movement.
You can regress.
The volume.
And
What I would say is that
In pain free range of motion.
A little bit can go a long way.
So if you look at something and you're like, ah, I don't have time for three sets of this or five sets of that or whatever it might be.
Okay, fine.
Well, maybe you start with one set.
And I know people who have gotten into tremendous shape
coming from a baseline of zero, right? No athleticism, nothing.
And they're like, Oh, I don't have time to go to the gym, I don't have to do that. I'm like, What about one push up before bed?
What about one push up?
Is there a reason you can't do one push up? And they're like, Yeah, of course I can do one push up. Like, okay, great, do one push up.
Now
Start turns into two and then it turns into whatever. And I I know one guy, like within a few months, he was doing fifty push ups before bed.
He was seeing real results and then that was the unlock.
Right. So that's a long winded way of just saying.
Don't get fixated.
on your limitations.
You can always scale down.
My starting
System is one to two sets.
And then I found for myself.
One to two sets I can maintain great.
Only on exercises that I'm planning to
Put more weights on
I'll go
A couple more sets just to actually
You're probably still only talking one or two sets really exerting. Like work sets. Yeah. Yeah.
Just to
Make sure people
Safely take their time.
Yeah.
I simply wouldn't have.
Believed.
fifteen years ago that now I'd be like
doing only two workouts a week.
Forty five minutes dunking and stuff. So I wouldn't have believed it. So someone doesn't like if someone thinks
We're full of shit. Like I
Would have thought we were full of shit.
That also doesn't mean.
that higher volume programs can't work.
Number one I see.
All the different exercises. That's a beautiful freedom with different
inputs and adaptations and I like I see all of fitness as positive. And then I see even all people's viewpoints of then
How to program that up as positive.
The program you stick with that works for you and your goals is awesome. Yeah, the program you stick with is the best program.
And
I want to reiterate what you're saying because
I
write books to be references for myself, basically. If I can find a book that does the job already, writing's way too hard. The research is way too arduous. It takes way too long. I don't want to write a book. It also turns out to generally be a terrible way to make any money.
even if your books do very well. There's just way too much of pushing boulders up the hill for me to write a book.
Unless
I feel like I'm gathering things that I
need and can't find somewhere else.
That was the case with the four hour body.
And this minimum effective dose, the concept, the MED of finding the minimum effective dose.
And you can look at many.
Comparables, right? It's like there's a certain temperature at which you boil water. You don't need to get it.
Thirty degrees hotter, right? If you go outside.
There's a point at which
You start to adapt.
In the sun and develop a tan.
You don't need or want to stay out another hour.
Right. And you progress and you start to extend the duration, et cetera.
It turns out that you can apply this almost everywhere.
You can apply it to language learning with the highest frequency words. You can apply it to, for instance, I was asking on
X back when it was Twitter.
People for favorite chapters in the four hour body because I was curious about possibly updating things, although there's not a lot that needs much updating, it turns out.
And
People gave various examples. There was a, I think it was an NFL player.
Who was benched.
And got back to playing professionally.
Using
The prehab chapter.
And Occam's protocol. Occam's protocol is like twenty minutes.
Twice a week.
Resistance training.
And a handful of other things. There's another guy who chimed in.
And I understand you can't believe everything you read on the internet, but I've seen multiple examples of this. He got to, I think, a four hundred and seventy five pound deadlift.
using the Barry Ross protocol.
In the book.
And Barry Ross coached Allison Felix and many other
Sprinters.
It is the most minimal thing you could possibly imagine. And
A Crux piece of it.
is doing
Deadlifts to the knee.
And then
effectively dropping the bar so that you're not risking any type of hamstring.
Strain.
And doing
Two to three sets of two to three reps. That's it. And you're taking big fat.
power lifter rests in between those sets, the amount of strength that you can build doing that.
Is
Head spinning.
So I just want to emphasize that
I don't have enough time.
doesn't really hold up to scrutiny if you're willing to scale back. And in fact
You can do a lot more with very little than you might suspect.
To your point, there are also volume based approaches and
I mean polyquin, we talked about polyquin. He did a lot of high volume stuff with his athletes.
Not everyone is gonna tolerate that very well.
Nor is it gonna be
compatible with their schedules necessarily.
So you find what works for you and ultimately the program you stick with is the best program.
I love that. Yeah, the for our body.
Had a massive
massive effect on me in like this phase of life, it's like two hour body for me.
And because it's like
The strength, the flexibility, the circulation.
The cardio, all this stuff wrapped in one.
I don't do
Any other therapies?
I don't take any supplements.
Those couple hours.
Go.
A long way for me. And then I'm
What are my goals? Like
For me.
Being a dad.
And then
Really
Focusing on my business
treating people well and doing good. It takes a lot of time and energy.
Because if you turn a blind eye to your business that's rarely gonna happen on its own.
Very rarely. I haven't figured out how to do that yet.
Yeah, so it's like
Those are my goals.
I also don't want to spend any time having to rehab stuff.
And
Knock on wood.
It's it's
Twelve.
Years now, no knee or back problems. It was like fifteen years ago that I got into this.
And
I would say my biggest mistake was treating it as short term rehab.
And being like, Oh, great and then trying to go back to
The methods I used to do.
Where's the
Now for me like
You had the question in the video of like, so is this like a warm up for the work? And then like
That's
Yeah. The workout. And then you get better at those things and some of these things we've mentioned, whether it be then finishing with
A set of ring rows to a good burnout.
That's gonna take what, a minute and goes a long way.
So
The efficiency of
Sledding and what I use at home is a resisted treadmill forward and backward.
I look at the clock.
three four minutes have gone by that I've done three sets forward and backward.
Catching my breath between each set.
I'm pumped. My lungs are
Have had a great work out. My legs are like warmed up, springy, fast, all this stuff.
So
for our body, you can see in my
passion. This is more along my passions in life.
is almost helping people that
Don't want so much
Stress.
On the body.
Or stress on the schedule.
Right. Stress on the family.
And
I would say that if I were to and it's just these things are too long and most of it
The vast majority of what's in the for our body, I I feel is very defensible. It's become more defensible over time, which has been cool to see.
Since it came out in in twenty ten, but
If I were to add
A few things to it.
I would add
Sledwork.
Or analogs like the resisted.
Incline treadmill.
I would add a chapter on intermittent fasting.
I would
Add a chapter on
It might not be a chapter, maybe but maybe a sidebar on
Various
hip activities
Exercises.
Things like
Loot Medias.
Work.
Things that you can do to stabilize everything else in effect.
That's
I did put some of in Tools of Titans with say
Some of Peter Tia's exercises and so on.
I would probably add
Chapter or sidebar on zone two training.
Which I still to this day find to be the most boring thing in the world. But if I have to drag myself or whip myself to do anything, that would be on the high end.
The high whipping scale.
And I think that's about it.
And there are probably chapters I would pull out.
to further simplify things.
And that's about it.
I mean these things are so reliable, and I would say to someone, for instance
Again, this is gonna sound like
Nothing.
But
If you have access to the
to a sled and people can look at the resisted treadmill that you have also.
Through ATG? How much does that cost?
Six hundred. Six hundred. Right. So I mean it's
On the grand scale of things.
Not just
affordable as an investment.
But also
Space efficient.
Right, because the biggest knock against the sled
Is that
You need space and the sleds.
Or not cheap.
Particularly the sleds I really like, like the torque sleds, which I own.
I love them.
But here in Austin I I don't have the space for one.
But let's just pretend you have access to one of these.
Let's call it a sled for simplicity, just so people can visualize it.
Over this past summer.
I did.
Sled work.
Where effectively as prescribed by Peter T if I'm doing
VO2 max training. I would want to do like four minutes on, four minutes off. You can make it five or six or whatever. It depends on how hard you're pushing.
And let's just say
It's
Four minutes on, four minutes off for four rounds or five rounds or six rounds.
And I would do that with the sled.
And I would push this is on a gravel driveway with mechanical resistance. You don't need to add much weight.
So what we're talking about, just to do the math, let's just say it's fifteen minutes.
Which often it would end up being fifty minutes because I would run out of gas. But ten to twenty minutes, let's call it. I was doing that.
Every other day.
Fasted.
After a little bit of caffeine.
And
My God.
Can you get in good shape?
Just from doing that. I mean it sounds
And I'm sure there are some very high level athletes or people who are doing six hundred pound squats.
Or nine hundred pound deadlifts who are gonna laugh hearing me say this.
But
You might be surprised how much your legs will grow.
And
how much stability you will develop doing this and how much body fat you can lose.
just by making that the first thing you do. And in my case I'm getting sun exposure at the same time.
For
Ten to twenty minutes in the morning.
And then let that afterburn work for a bit.
I would typically do that in the mornings. And I would take some like a very I'm talking like three hundred milligrams of essential amino acids.
But that's a longer story.
And
I would do the work out and then I would hold off on eating for a few hours and then
break my intermittent fast at two or three PM. But feeding that way.
And then doing weight training typically before like my second and last meal of the day for dinner.
gaining muscle mass, not losing muscle mass.
And
The total
I mean we're talking about weekly time, if I'm doing it every other day, it's three or four
Let's call it days a week.
So that's an hour.
And then the weight trainings probably
Since I'm doing some rehab as well because of some current back issues.
We're talking about
Two to three hours a week.
That's it.
And it's split up also into very manageable.
Doses.
It's not like I'm asking you to do a three hour or two hour workout at once.
But
It is really to this day there's still things I come across.
like the in my case I'm still elevated, but the front foot elevated split squad or the ATG split squad.
Or for instance the exercise that you showed me earlier, which is
Basically a seeded let's call it
more constrained version of like a Romanian deadlift standing.
People can find this on your pinned video, I imagine. So I won't belabor the description.
Or sled work.
Where I still find these things like I think to myself, My God, if I just did these.
And that was it.
The sort of return on invested time.
Is so much better.
than like the long tail of thirty exercises that I could try to do.
It still makes me smile and blows my mind to this day how some of these things are just so inherently
Given their
Risk.
To the benefit ratio.
So high yield.
It's really wild.
That's exactly how I feel. It's still to this day it's like
I do my two workouts a week. I'm just totally
Stoked and sometimes it's I still have that like
Wow.
feeling every time'cause I'm like
It's unbelievable. And now I've been doing this for so long that it's not like
Wow, I could just train like that.
I have been for a while.
And the results are insane.
And you're playing sports, right?
I try.
Once a week.
To play some basketball.
Right now, that means like playing with the best kids at the school that I'm volunteering at.
So it's
Two workouts a week.
Try to play basketball.
Once a week.
And
Raised toddlers.
Before you play basketball.
Any type of warm up that you do for that? Or is has your training provided the warm up?
First and foremost, the training provides a warm up.
I don't have any special warm up.
From
What I've learned.
Training wise.
I try to at least have systems.
And to recap incredibly fast my systems, because you'd actually ask me like what are my total principles? And it's just three total principles as far as I can see.
Which is the forward and backward resisted movement.
And then
The
training from the ground up, just reminding myself even if it's one set.
Okay, I'm gonna hit the lower legs before I go to the upper legs.
And then the third one being the
Strength through.
My mobility.
And then I just flow that.
to the upper body and I'm done.
That's the training principles.
If you add all of that up.
Forward and backward.
ground up because most of us has probably not done as much work for like
The lower body and lower legs is for the upper body.
So we're kind of restoring some natural balance there.
Yeah, I need to do a lot of work on the lower legs.
Right, we could say that
your body's inputs would think that you didn't want to get as strong in the lower legs.
As the upper.
So by doing that, you're what, you're restoring some balance.
To the body. Quick.
Piece of trivia for people who may find it funny.
Go look at really early photographs of
Arnold Schwartz and Edgar posing and some of them have him standing in water where water is up to his knees.
Because he was so embarrassed about his lower leg development.
Alas, I haven't figured out.
How to wade through swamps up to my knees to cover my
Yeah. By lack of development in the lower legs. Yeah, most of us haven't.
It's almost like we're telling the body.
Hey, I don't want to be as strong proportionally in the lower legs as everything above it. And then
The amount of foot pains and different chronic pains.
That I've had people.
Who had for years
That are gone now.
Just from restoring that balance.
Really cool.
And then the third one being training the strength.
Through the mobility, as I said. So those
Three.
But what's the strength from ability again?
we're kinda restoring that natural balance'cause when we go into weight training our body
starts to shift towards strength in certain ranges but not others.
So all of it together just means my whole philosophy is just to have balanced ability in the body.
Forward, backward, high positions, low positions.
Lower legs, upper legs.
So
That's how I train.
That makes me healthy that I can just go play basketball.
But
Because of
All that
I try to be sensible about it and do a sort of
Segmented warm up.
Of
Like okay, dribbling in place, then dribbling in motion. Now what's a little more pressure than that?
Might be like
Shooting.
So it's just super basic.
Like that.
Someone could do that for any sport. It's like you just take the forces and you just kinda segment them into a obvious warm-up. So there's no special
Magic. No magic sauce.
Well we've covered quite a bit.
Ben, is there anything else that you'd like to
Cover any other topics you'd like to jam on? Anything that comes to mind?
I think
More for
U which is
For me.
As or more important than any of this exercise stuff.
Is
You've managed.
To
Become this.
Giant.
Without bashing other people.
Without
games that you know are lower integrity. So y you must have some sort of
'Cause I've had to kind of set up for myself, Okay, I need to be make sure that my posts don't have any lies.
to try to start arguments.
Or that there's nothing intentionally trying to start arguments and
So there's these things like this that I've had to piece together.
But
I think of you.
And
Sometimes I'm blank after that. Apologies if for being blank, but it's like there's not a lot that I can look to and go.
Here's a guy.
Who's
succeeding in ways that I would
Wanna succeed.
Helping people.
But
With your integrity in.
To me that's more important than the rest, because I feel like that's the trickle down that
Makes life shitty for a lot of people.
Is the more and more leaders. I mean
Who then lose their integrity.
Like I think that's more important than all the rest,'cause it
That affects everything.
Yeah, thanks, man. So what's your
My process. I mean, do you have yeah, like what's your
What's your thoughts on that? I mean, even if you just think about it, you'll share
Some unusual information compared to what normally is gonna be on a podcast. Yeah, I'm happy to riff on it. I would say that
There are a few things that come to mind.
And I'll maybe get there by way of
Example.
So there was an episode I recorded
A long time ago with a fellow named
Abology.
And he's
known for a great many things. He's actually been very accurate in predicting a lot of sort of geopolitical events and so on. Also happens to be incredibly technical and
familiar with cryptography and crypto and so on. And I did an episode with him.
And
It just exploded.
And there are many reasons for that.
But it ended up being, I think, at the time the most popular episode of the year.
And
There were a number of
Trend lines.
At the time.
People were at home. This was during COVID.
crypto is on everyone's radar, all of a sudden people are
using various means of
finding something to do, including trading or quote unquote investing. And I use quote unquote because it wasn't always investing.
So there are many things that contributed
to this episode doing well.
And I remember having a chat with my team internally and they were like, Here are four or five other guests.
who are also involved with
Crypto.
Oh.
we think would be very, very strong.
And
I
paused in that moment and there's this quote, it may be incorrectly.
attributed, but there's a quote that I have started almost every presentation I've ever given. So
be kind of hilarious if it were not attributed properly. Thinking it's attributed to
Mark Twain, but
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.
It's roughly along those lines.
So I looked at what was happening around me and I saw a lot of
podcasts focusing on crypto. I saw a lot of media focusing on crypto.
And
I looked at
in my mind telescoping forward. What would be the implications of me having these four or five people on?
There would be
A definite
short or intermediate term reward.
Lots of downloads.
Very happy sponsors.
I could probably increase my rates. I mean, there would be real financial rewards.
Okay.
What are the trade offs?
There are always trade offs.
Always.
When you make any decision, just like
Literally from the perspective of decision.
Meaning cutting away.
Related to indecision.
You're choosing one option among many. There are trade offs.
So what are the trade offs if I commit to doing four or five more episodes on
Crypto.
One is that
I start to
Filter out anyone in my audience who's not
interested in crypto, most likely.
Some will be
willing to indulge me because they
have followed the podcast for a long time and want to see how I tackle it, but after four or five episodes, after a month or two
I will basically have
called my audience of everyone anyone who is not
particularly interested.
That is
A very large sacrifice.
Number one.
'Cause I want a diverse audience.
Number two.
Is
That I would be training myself.
to succumb to audience capture.
There's some great pieces that have been written about audience capture.
But
The way I would describe it, actually I'll give
I apologize that I can't remember the author's name. It's a really fantastic piece.
But he starts with this example of a YouTuber whose channel
Focused on him.
gorging himself, just eating these kind of absurdly large meals.
And he started off
Pretty thin.
And ended up as he was rewarded for these videos, and as it became the corner he was painted into.
As he felt he needed to continue to rack up views serving people what they wanted.
He destroyed his health completely. Became
Obese.
put on this mask. And if you wear a mask long enough, you become the mask. I think that's something that people miss.
And I recall
Just as a side note.
Because
I wanna try to answer your question, but there's a lot to it.
I remember I interviewed Andrew Zimmern, who
has been on man he's been on TV for decades now.
Amazing guy, very smart. His life story's incredible for people who want to check out the podcast episode.
And
He said to me at one point, because I was delving into television, he said, be very and I'm paraphrasing, but be very careful.
About what you do in that first episode.
Because
If you pretend to be something that you're not.
And it's successful.
You will feel the obligation.
to continue to do that.
And there are a lot of risks.
Related to that.
And
Furthermore, if you're training yourself
Two
Respond to
Audience demands.
Or
Wims.
Or trends.
Instead of
Some type of internal compass.
And simultaneously, you're training yourself.
And these are often related.
Two
Basically pursue the option that has the most economic upside.
I feel like
Particularly if you're
in the online media game in any capacity.
And by the way, you don't need to have a business.
to succumb to this. You might just have a personal page and you're being trained by the platform.
to be in the vanity Olympics.
And these algorithms
Are so good.
And I know a lot of data scientists and PhDs who work at these companies.
You're bringing a knife to a gunfight psychologically.
So if you encourage
yourself to be
Captivated by those incentives.
You're lost. You're just lost at sea. You're going to be lost. And it's a lot easier to get lost than it is to get unlost.
And that has a trickle down effect, right? So if I make decisions
based on and it's very hard.
And I'm not always perfect.
If I allow myself to be steered.
By the most.
Extreme things, perhaps, that guests say.
What am I gonna do?
I'm gonna optimize for extreme.
And then if I'm optimizing for extreme, why am I doing that? It's for views. Why do I care about views? It could be vanity. It could also be for CPMs and advertising, could be for
Product sales.
Well
What's gonna happen to my headlines?
They're going to become the national inquirer for people old enough to remember that.
They're gonna become the most clickbaity.
Exaggerated.
indefensible set of claims you can imagine. And you don't have to be a
Data scientist, uh
realize this just go look at where you're served up in your
personal feed on YouTube and chances are there's gonna be a lot of nonsense.
Or a lot of misleading.
And what I've learned is that
When you
Develop an awareness of this.
Not that you're I'm holding myself up to be some
paragon of personal excellence and integrity, but
I recognize that it's a lot easier.
To get hooked on a drug than to get off.
Of said drug.
And make no mistake.
You're being trained by the platform.
You're being trained by your audience.
Those are all drugs that are very addictive.
And there are
lots of rewards for pursuing that, but to come back to what I said earlier, there are lots of trade offs.
And
For me also on top of that.
I would say that
I have worked so hard.
Two.
Ensure that my audience feels they can trust me.
There's certain lines once you cross.
If you do not deliver on the promise of a headline, you do not deliver on the promise of a title.
If you make a recommendation that costs someone time, money, or God forbid, causes some type of injury.
You're done.
You are dead to that person, and for good reason.
I feel like with a great audience, and that could be a small audience, could be a big one.
comes great responsibility.
And I should say also this isn't because I'm some type of saint. Like it's also being
long term ambitious.
For me.
The greatest
Insurance plan, the greatest
Choose your metaphor.
Safety net, but also propellant.
for doing well long term.
Is
Not
Doing anything.
And you'll make mistakes, but really trying hard not to do anything that will compromise the trust that your audience puts in you.
That could be readers, could be listeners, could be viewers, could be anything.
And for that reason I'm
very cautious about what I recommend. I'm very cautious about who I have on the podcast.
I'm very cautious about
Chasing any type of trend, hence that
What I think is a Mark Twain quote, but could be someone else. Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.
So in the case of the
Crypto episode.
That was massively successful. I could have milked that, but it would have been
Equivalent of
Killing the golden goose.
And
Those are a few ways that
I think about
My
sort of life that is at this point.
Toothpaste out of the toothpaste too, but you can't really put it back in from a public exposure perspective. There are lots of trade-offs, privacy wise and so on.
or being public facing.
Although
a lot of folks who are long term listeners and viewers will notice that I am not doing even a tiny fraction of the video.
that most of my
Colleagues or peers, certainly the up and comers.
And there are costs to that.
So I have my reasons for doing that.
I wanna have a family soon.
They do not.
need any more facial recognition. I want to be very cognizant of
Protecting the privacy of my family.
But
Have I left a lot of money on the table? Yeah, I have.
But like what are you using the money for in the first place? And this is why it's like why, why, why? Just keep asking why.
Why? So what?
Why is that important? Then what happens?
And
If money
Fundamentally.
It's sort of a story, right? It's like this
Abstraction.
But it's a currency that we can use to trade for other things.
Now having that in savings could provide you with psychological reassurance.
For any number of reasons.
you know, family, childhood, scarcity, who knows?
So there could be that.
Otherwise you're trading it for
things and experiences but which ultimately translate to feelings.
Like okay.
Where else could you get those feelings? Do you really need those incremental dollars with those trade-offs?
So for me I decided I didn't, and that's also the reason why
Keep in mind, right?
Four hour work week.
Details.
my first real business, which was in sports nutrition. I know the supplement world inside and out.

And when I launched the four hour body.
I had a huge
audience from the first book that was waiting for my next book.
I could've made
Tens of millions, maybe a hundred million plus by launching a supplement brand.
to capitalize on every one of my main product recommendations.
I'd be lying if the thought didn't occur to me.
Especially at that time because
Even with the success of the four hour work week.
Royalties are very slim.
In a traditional deal.
And
The temptation, therefore,

Huge.
I was like, this is how I can secure my entire financial future.
And I decided not to do it.
Why?
Because if I had launched a supplement brand
Everyone would have not everyone, but a lot of people rightly would have said
Well, we're asking a barber if we need a haircut.
This guy is shilling his bags. He's selling exactly what he's recommending. How can I trust anything this guy says?
I was like, that is too steep a cost.
I'll find another way to do it.
Two.
I mean that's remarkable because
It would have been a shoe in.
Yeah, would have been sure.
I similarly.
You'll know when I sell out.
If I'm selling a joint supplement.
Yeah.

anything against supplements, it's that it wasn't actually part of my journey.
So if I now sold a supplement.
I wanna know what effect I get from the exercises and yeah, that would be the
The easiest business route.
As the new toast guy.
You know, knock
Maybe it's just
Can't teach an old dog new tricks. I mean I consume.
A ludicrous.
number of supplements. I do consume a lot of supplements.
So clearly there are brands.
that I trust typically have been third party verified. Things have been tested because my God.
It is the Wild West, folks. Like there's no
Enforcement.
Really?
Do your homework on the supplements that you take.
But
That is all just a long way of saying.
There are some good players in the supplement sphere.
But
If I'm combining that
In my case, with a book that is purported.
to provide unbiased information.
You can't believe those claims.
If I'm selling exactly the thing that I'm recommending.
No.
That doesn't automatically mean
That
I've ethically compromised in some way.
But people would be right to question it.
You wouldn't have.
You would have made a great supplement line. Yeah. You would have been honest.
But
The integrity point would have been out.
That's what I find.
Remarkable and that's what like
If me going the rest of my career
I see that actually as
Right.
Not posting about just doing
Things.
Along those lines.
Because, as you know
I mean, how many young people ask you for advice, right? And then how many people become successful?
you leave this trickle down impact.
That
This point for me it's like
That's really what it's about. And for my kids and then helping them learn.
These same values.
Like, I feel like that's a whole podcast to unpack, but I appreciate you
digging in there because it's very unusual. You you would have cashed out big.
But
Right.
integrity wouldn't have been as trustworthy.
Yeah, thanks. That's um
There are times that I'm like, fuck, that would have been so much money. You know, that like I'm not like there are times it's not easy for me to walk away from that. Right. There are times I'm just like, oh my God. Like I remember when the Far Body hit number one New York Times.
And just kept going, kept going, and
This book was published fifteen years ago and even uh I'll give credit where credit is due, Gary Breca put out a video
About
some components of the for our body and had this huge resurgence and like
Back on a bunch of bestseller lists.
And I'm just like, Man, can you imagine the annuity this thing would have been?
Good Lord, but I don't regret it.
And
I'll say two things.
In addition to that, the build on this. Number one is
When people think about losing trust.
Which is losing your reputation.
At least for me. There are many ways to think of reputation. I mean, I guess suppose you can you can have like an Al Capone reputation. Like there are many different types of reputations, but if you have a reputation for being trustworthy.
Losing that trust.
Does not mean
That you do something so bad that everyone says, I can't trust him.
I can't trust Ben.
All that needs to happen.
is they ask themselves once.
Can I really trust Ben?
Can I really trust this video?
Can I really trust this?
Can I trust this
Advice that Tim is giving, as soon as there is a question
You've lost the trust.
And
As soon as there is a seed of doubt, it is very hard to reclaim. Now
If I'm talking about long term
I'm being
long term greedy or long term ambitious.
Because of that trust.
And for instance, being very clear on
situation, say in San Francisco where I lived at the time.
having friend D's, as some people call them. So NDA non disclosure agreement. Friend DA is basically if someone tells you something in confidence, even if they don't emphasize that you
Need to keep it confidential.
Not sharing things that anyone says to you.
And
By developing
Becoming a known quantity as someone who's very good at discretion.
who does what he says he's gonna do on time.
Those were ingredients that led to ultimately the angel investing.
And being able to invest in a lot of these startups and work with a lot of these founders.
Inherently.
I would be exposed to a lot of really confidential
private information that's critical to their business success.
So developing that trustworthiness.
through actions over time and people telling other people.
is what allowed me to do the angel investing with which ultimately returned
Much more.
Than any self in business ever would have.
So
Don't overestimate the value of the dollars in your bank account and don't underestimate the value.
Of having a consistent
Reputation for being trustworthy.
And there's so many ways to fuck that up.

And who knows, maybe also I mean I'm very hyper vigilant. I'm very
aware and over aware and probably overemphasized dangers in the world.
So I think there's also maybe it's work to my advantage in the sense that
If you don't have your word, if people feel like they can't trust that, like
You're done.
It's just like it's gonna be Mad Max for you.
Not in a good way.
I'm not sure exactly, but
This is how I've thought about some of it.
It's a right.
Characteristic.
The world would be a lot.
Anyway.
If more leaders
Did that.
So
Yeah, thanks, man.
I really appreciate it.
I've made plenty of mistakes along the way.
Sure I'll continue to make tons of mistakes.
But
The question I'd encourage people to ask, and I ask this in my personal life, ask this in my professional life, it's like okay.
If you continue to do this.
If you continue to do X, whatever X is.
And let's just say you do two percent more of it or you do it with two percent more intensity.
Every week or month.
Over time, like three years from now, what does that look like?
Be very aware.
Of
The trend line and the way it compounds.
So in the case of say
YouTube.
Titles.
Okay. If you're exaggerating two percent and people accept that.
And you get better results.
You think you're gonna stop at two percent?
course you're not gonna stop at two percent. Now it's gonna be four percent.
And eventually you're gonna cross the line.
without realizing that you've crossed that line.
That explains a lot.
And that's how
My wife and I run our business together.
She's really
Much more of a business genius than
Thank God.
But even on the integrity stuff.
It's hard to explain in a way.
Okay.
If I was in any country I would want
Just based on all my observations of being business, I would wanna be supporting local businesses and stuff. So okay, so we've got this.
Passion for
Making stuff in America that
Really
From observing everything in this last year.
And now she's just like
Off to the racist.
Crushing it in terms of
Takes calls and networking and finding people and
continuing until because you're told, No, no, can't make this, can't make the can't and then you find the person who can make it, you find the factory, you find the
Technology.
And if I was in
Canada.
China, I would feel the same way.
It's something that's important to us. But I like your two percent thing. Like if we keep putting
Two percent more energy on that.
'Cause when you were describing this, I was thinking
'Cause this is something that's on our minds a lot.
And I'm thinking three years. Wow, I'm like three years now.
Life is gonna be amazing. Yeah. I don't know what the exact numbers will be, but apply but the amount of stuff as well. We're breaking through all kinds of stuff that people aren't able to make here that now we're actually getting.
It's so cool, you can go to the factory.
See the people.
See the person.
You can have
Like how I said, Okay.
When you blew up our wrist bar sales. It's like
For us
It makes us happier.
We like it.
And I like your rule. What does it look like a few years from now?
If we keep putting a little more and I'm like
That's a life I really like.
The numbers won't be gigantic.
But they'll be good and we'll be we'll be super
Happy about it.
And also it's like enough is enough.
At some point.
And enough.
What enough means will differ from person to person, but
Generally speaking, money's not gonna solve all the problems you think it will.
And
what you need to live an amazing life is
Much less than most people realize.
And then like if you cross the
Finish line, so to speak.
I with
Annual income.
or savings or some combination, invested capital in low cost index funds, whatever it might be.
Whatever gives you the sense of
Psychological safety.
Once you get close to that or you get there.
Which can be a lot less than you might
Realize.
And there's an exercise called dreamlining. If you search my name and that you can find it, it's costing all this stuff out.
You'll realize that the
Other pieces of the puzzle that are so important are not in any way addressed by money and you have to work on those separately.
And part of the way you work on those separately.
Is
doing things that you feel good about.
that make you feel good about yourself. And so
For instance.
If part of that is making things in the US.
That in and of itself.
Can more than offset.
the additional cost that's incurred compared to doing it overseas.
Like the actual benefit and particularly since you're doing it with your wife, like the benefit to your family collectively.
And
If you're proud of that, the way you radiate that to your kids.
That's a lot. That's valuable.
Been so nice to spend time together. Really nice together. As you can see, I could grill you on this whole side of things.
But I appreciate it.
Yeah, definitely. Where can people find you online?
Knees over toes.
Guy
On
YouTube and Instagram are the best places where you can just go and and
Learn everything that I know.
Mm-hmm.
Perfect.
All right. We'll link to those in the show notes. People will be able to find that. You'll pin the video.
It gives people an overview of what we re recorded earlier. Uh we'll also link to the video we did together.
So people can check that out'cause that was a lot of fun.
And
Thanks for taking the time.
Yeah, really appreciate it.
And to everybody listening.
As always, we will link to everything in the show notes at Tim.blog slash podcast.
Just search Ben Patrick.
Or if you want to type out knees over toes guy, it will probably pop right up.
But you can search Ben Patrick and you'll find everything we've uh spoken about.
And until next time be
Just a bit kinder than is necessary. Two others.
But also.
Two.
You.
Your self.
Thanks for tuning in.
Hey guys, this is Tim again, just one more thing before you take off, and that is Five Bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend? Between one and a half and two million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter called Five Bullet Friday. Easy to sign up, easy to cancel.
It is basically a half page that I send out every Friday to share the coolest things I've found or discovered or have started exploring over that week. It's kind of like my diary of cool things. It often includes articles I'm reading, books I'm reading.
albums perhaps, gadgets, gizmas, all sorts of tech tricks and so on that get sent to me by my friends, including a lot of podcast guests. And these strange esoteric things end up in my field and then
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