The Sex Expert (Esther Perel): The Relationship Crisis No One Talks About That's Killing Your Sex Life!

0:00 So I messaged my closest friends. Can you tell me what question you have that you wouldn't ever say out loud? Give me a few. How can I be satisfied with just one sexual partner? I have my partner. Should I tell them? I no longer find my partner attractive, but I don't know how. We have a lot to talk about. Are you gonna record me today? Right. Here's where they would suggest. Esther Perell is regarded as one of the most sought after relationship therapists in the world. For the past 40 years, she's been helping millions of people with her brutally honest and wildly relatable insights.

0:33 people are having less sex. Why is the sex getting less interesting? No, their life with each other is less interesting. And what concerns me at this moment it's the loss of social skills. But they are vital to us. And we have less and less opportunities to practice because we are pursuing connection beyond the human world. People don't have partner sex. They have sex on porn. We also are surrounded by algorithmic perfections. And that's creating warp expectations that we bring to our relationships. And then there's the misery of the dating app. who swiped two million times to get one date. Oh god. It appears that you have many options, but you swipe, swipe, swipe and you're going to get frustrated because you don't get matched with anybody. But don't make the app become the replacements where you can actually go outside, meet people, and also deal with rejection. Because it's a major feature to develop relationships. But we've never been more free, but we've never been more alone. And more filled with self-doubt. So tell me how to fix it in order to have a great relationship with it. There's a ton of really important things. The first thing this

1:42 Quick one before we get back to this episode. Just give me thirty seconds of your time. Two things I wanted to say. The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week. It means the world to all of us, and this really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn't have imagined getting to this place. But secondly, it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started. And if you enjoy what we do here, please join the twenty four percent of people that listen to this podcast regularly and follow us on this app. Here's a promise I'm gonna make to you. I'm gonna do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can now and into the future. We're gonna deliver the guests that you want me to speak to, and we're gonna continue to keep doing all of the things you love about this show.

2:23 Thank you. Thank you so much. Back to the episode. Esther, with all that you know

2:31 And with all that you study and with all that you research and write about and think about. What is it that concerns you most? What is front of mind for you when you think about mating and dating and Human connection. What concerns me most

2:48 I think it's the fact that uh there is a unique moment in history at this moment where we are redesigning our communication our ways of connecting Our ways of answering the big questions But specifically in the realm of relationships, it's uh social atrophy.

3:09 I think we are losing social skills. And the word atrophy for anyone that doesn't know is Atrophy is when you don't use muscles. They go numb. Social atrophy is when you no longer know how to speak to people. And what is the cost of that?

3:24 If we do lose that social ability to to connect and to have happenstance, what price do we pay? Why does life get harder and how does it get harder? We are social critiques. We are wired for connection.

3:39 If we We live longer because we are connected. We don't live longer because we are master biohackers. We need those connections, they are just literally vital to us, so Um it's not that we have replaced this, you know, en and our skills are s still honed in. We don't. We have less and less opportunities to practice. If you do sports.

4:04 And you don't practice your sport. You wouldn't be asking me what is the price. You would know that if you don't play and it's been years of not playing then that thing is out of your life. Done. But you can do other things. Whereas you can't live without connection. So many people are really dissatisfied with the choices they have for connection.

4:25 I'm sure we're all to blame, but when I When I scroll through my my feed on social media, one of the things I've seen lately, I saw it just before you arrive and also a couple of days ago, was people so angry. At dating apps. Mm-hmm. And I've got friends close to me who are

4:40 Furious that their only apparent option to meet someone these days appears to be. May go go outside, go walk your dog, go run, go b go with a bike group, go to a go do life. And you will meet people. I mean, you create situations. It's not you know, where are the available situations, where are the The options for meeting people. You create options. You know, you're at a you're at a coffee shop, you're ordering a coffee, ask the person next to you if you can offer them one.

5:10 can do something that actually invites relatedness. And I know the anger at the up. I get that, you know, I I'm actually quite connected to to to this whole world of dating apps. But

5:24 I think that It's a tool. Use it. But don't make it become the replacement. for the multitudes of situations.

5:34 Yesterday I sat on a plane, I spoke for three hours with two people just because there was no wifi. It was just an amazing conversation. And at and all of us at the the moment we landed said to each other, Wow. If we had had Wi Fi we wouldn't have talked to each other one bit or five minutes and then be done with this. It's all these situations that we don't take advantage of.

6:00 We used w we used to Always talk to people. And I think if you just rely on the app You will go through a loop. You'll go on it.

6:12 You'll swipe, swipe, swipe, you'll respond with the least amount of effort possible because you've so burned out already from doing this That you don't really want to give much of yourself. If you don't give much of yourself, you're not gonna get the kind of responses that you want. Then you're going to get frustrated because you don't get matched with anybody, but you don't look at your own laziness that is not particularly invited for someone to actually want to match with you. And then you say, Now I'm tired of this. So now you get off the app for six months, you take a break, you say I'm I'm done with the apps and then six months later you say, I don't want to meet someone. And what do you do? You go back on the app instead of thinking of the multitudes of situations where you can actually meet people. And it's become so weird to talk to somebody. You know, you can sit next to someone and uh the counter and it's like you're a weirdo if you start talking to me it instead of, you know, why not?'Cause even in the situation of your plane ride, if there had been Wi Fi, those people wouldn't have wanted to s talk to you. So really regardless of your attempt. you would have been met with

7:13 You know. Rejection. To some degree. Social rejection. Like it's? Maybe, but you know, the original app

7:21 If you really want to understand the gamification of that, it was really done as a way to n not have to put yourself out and have to deal with rejection. But re do you un rejection is a major feature of relationships. Learning to live with people who say no to us. Is essential. Have you heard this story of the guy who tracked his Tinder swipes and the story is that he swiped two million times to get One

7:51 Date. And you can kinda see this is him here. Yeah. This guy swiped.

7:59 Two million. Fifty eight thousand times. He got two thousand matches from that, which turned into one thousand two hundred chats. Which turned into one date. Such a system.

8:13 is failing a huge percentage of people. This is the chap. On water? On Tinder, I believe it was. This is here he is. I'll put him on the screen so everyone can see. Mm-hmm. And you can kinda see the the the photos that he

8:26 he led with on his dating profile. He probably shouldn't be holding a massive fish. I'm not sure many women are into that, but Oh he's got the fish picture. Yes, yes. For people like him. What's the honest advice that someone like him needs because you know, clearly dating apps aren't gonna work for him.

8:40 Which is a lot of us, uh from what I've got. So it has the amount of time he's been a member of the apps just over five years, almost six years. Yes. I mean uh uh the first thing if if you sat in my office and you told me this I would not spend my time discussing what you're doing on the app. I would discuss what you're doing off the app and if you uh ever are even off the app. I mean have you

9:08 The amount of hours of swiping that you've done. Obviously this is not yielding anything. Why are you continuing? Five years is an enormous amount of time in your life. I feel sad for you. You know, have you tried any other ways? Have you Have you been with uh with your friends? Do you have friends? Have your friends introduced you to people? Have you gone to places where you are more likely to meet people? I don't know what you're interested in, but if you're fishing is one of those things

9:37 You know, maybe even at the fish market you could meet. But I mean, more of it isn't gonna give you more of it. It's just gonna make you more frustrated. So if you were satisfied. It's like what are you trying to prove? You know, go try something else. If you're trying to park in a space that you can't get in, at some point don't you go look for another space? Is there an element of this where

10:02 You know, I from what I heard from dating apps, there's only a small percentage of men that can basically get all the opportunity. If I I have I'll put the numbers on the screen, but Yeah, I know the the roles. Um A large proportion of women get lots of opportunity because lots of men swipe for But opportunity for what? To be swiped does that mean does that and then what? The main thing is can we have a conversation about emotional capitalism?

10:25 You know, I go, I try, I I I try to get the best, I try to shop. You know, I try to d m to maximise my chances, but fundamentally The app originally was broadening your circle. It gave you the opportunity to meet people that you would otherwise not meet. There was something very beautiful about that.

10:46 From that it became a commodification. People treat each other like shit. People ghost each other left and right. People tell each other things and then disappear. People don't have to say I'm not interested in seeing you again.

11:01 They just Close the shop. And the misery Is not because they haven't met someone. The misery is the treatment that is kind of semi anonymity. enables you you don't have to be polite anymore you don't have to treat people with minimum decency

11:18 And that's what hurts people. That that makes people bitter Angry, doubting themselves. Lot of things like that. It's part of the challenge that I have so many apparent options now. as someone on these dating apps, it's kind of like going to a when you go to like Asia or Thailand and you get the menu.

11:36 And that menu is so big, they'll like make anything you want. So you find it hard to choose. And also any choice you make, you realise that it's come at the cost Of so many other things you could have had, so it's less special. It's less scarce. And in the world of Instagram and dating apps, it appears that I have a hundred thousand options. Yes, it appears that you have those many options and it appears that you have a paradox of choice and it appears that you constantly are dealing with the FOMO of what else is around the corner. But the interesting thing is when I work with people I spend a lot of time reading, reading what they actually post.

12:08 Even a peacock is more creative than us, you know, in how they attract people, in what you say, in what but hey, what's up? Manna Hang. Is that giving you any energy in your body? Okay. I mean this is half the the messages. Yep.

12:25 I'm watching I'm chilling. Okay. Well keep chilling. It's like where is the energy? Where do you know there's something about c call flirting, attracting someone, showing an interest, et cetera, et cetera. What's the better thing for us to say? Oh man, you know Show interest.

12:44 I saw something in your picture. Uh I'm wondering, you know, if we went to listen to music, what's the first band we would go to listen to? Something that says you are a person with life with interest with curiosity. Show curiosity. It's probably the first thing that you do when you are drawn to somebody. I guess if I've been rejected so much, as you said, I've been kinda demoralised, the energy's been taken out of me, so now It's just become this sort of cycle of just a little bit. Then go then do something else for a while. Don't stay in that pattern.

13:14 It's it's really depleting, but the thing about the choice is that we also are living surrounded by algorithmic perfections. And predictive technologies that are trying to deliver us always, you know, on demand, delivery of our everyday light always on, without any friction. And that is creating What expectations that we bring to our relationships.

13:40 That very same expectation for perfection and for sycophantic responses, you know? So The more we are interacting with AIs and the more we are respe receiving a different kind of response, the more challenging it will be for us to actually deal with real people. And and to face what you call rejection. Not every refusal is a rejection.

14:04 I mean this guy didn't write how many times he wasn't interested. He only tells what's happening to him. He gives you the victim story. It's a statement of This thing doesn't work for me and men don't get answered on the app and you get this whole plight but there's no context. I can't give you an uh and I don't think anybody should actually respond to this

14:27 Without knowing all these other details. Is there an issue when you mention men that is there an issue that Gender roles have shifted. And when we think about the plight of men They are

14:39 You know. This I think the single biggest killer of men of the age of forty five is themselves and the gender roles um have shifted so much that often men have less purpose, feelings of purpose and worth now than they used to have. Women and men have got gotten closer to a point of financial Equality.

14:55 They've gotten closer. Um than the past. Which now kind of also means that The role of a man, if we think historically is less clear than the role of a man maybe Fifty.

15:07 A hundred years ago. To understand masculinity you have to understand the broader spectrum of relationships. So Relationships used to be about duty and obligation. Loyalty and community.

15:19 And happiness came not from what you do for yourself, but happiness came from having fulfilled your role and your mission and your obligation to the people that you owe to. Your family primarily. That model is still the prevailing model in most parts of the world. We shifted that model from duty and obligation to option and choice. And so now we have zero clarity and a lot of freedom, and we've never been more free, but we've never been more alone.

15:45 and more confused and more filled with self doubt. How how long have you been working with Men on women. in a relationship, love, connection. Forty years. So what have you seen change?

16:00 in the conversation around men and masculinity, like what are the different problems that men are talking about in when they speak to you that they weren't speaking about when you started your career? I mean You can start with the subject of loneliness. Loneliness, which is a a a general societal issue at this point, is definitely a major affliction, even more so for boys and men. Okay, loneliness was not um uh the uh the story of men in the nineteenth century. Men hunted together, men w hiked together, men b gathered together, men went to the bar together, men had conversations with other men, men meant

16:36 Mm. You know, so Th there is nothing inherent about men. That sets them up for more loneliness and isolation. That is

16:48 Villy important to understand men boys till the age of four And then till the age of seven are highly emotional, they can articulate, they can so These are cultural phenomenons, these are social developments. This is not Yeah. Biological. This is not

17:05 Intrinsic to men. One shift that's taken place, which I'm keen to get your perspective on, is Relates to sex. One in three men under thirty in the US reported no sex in the past year. That's triple the rate. From two thousand and eight.

17:21 Millennials and Gen Z are having less sex than any generation since records began, despite more access to the dating apps we talked about. Yeah. In Japan, over forty percent of young adults are virgins. And they say many say that they have no interest in sex. And lastly, married couples in the UK and the United States report a steady decline in sexual frequencies since the early two thousands. Yeah. I wrote about that in Meting in Captivity that came out in two thousand six. That's twenty years ago. Yes, because in order to have sex with a female partner, if that's the man you're talking about, you need to be able to approach her. And so social atrophy is directly connected to what is often called the sexual recession.

18:01 I mean I I in in mating twenty years ago I have an entire chapter where someone basically says to me, I'd rather have the security of an MBA than of a relationship. Okay, and at that point already you began to see that the adolescence in the United States, it's not everywhere in the world, but suddenly in the US and we're more and more Going in groups. And having less and less pair bonding and less and less romantic relationships that accompany you through your adolescence that develop with you, and you basically develop sex as part of a plot. And not as something that at some point your hormones force you to do.

18:39 But a story, a story, a relationship is a story. And then at suddenly you arrive at a certain age and now you're looking at this other person with whom you want to have sex and it's like this um unknown continent that you have to conquer. Uh but uh but but you've never spoken with those people. You have very little female friends who are just friends who help you understand what happens with your girlfriend. You know, there's an entire social map that has dissipated. So the sex is the last thing on the list of all these disconnects that then of course lead you to have this kind of statistic.

19:15 Then that means with partners. They have plenty of sex maybe with themselves and others. Other uh other but it's partnered sex here that is in that is involved, right? They have sex on porn, they have sex. They've don't have partner sex. You know. Do you understand when I say to you? This is a you can add that to your statistics too, that the majority of men who come to sex therapy today for erectile dysfunctions are young men in their twenties.

19:44 Not old men after prostate issues. Really? Yes. Why? Because they spend an enormous amount of time with themselves. Watching porn of masturbating. Yes.

19:56 Because in order to be able to maintain erections with a partner it's an it's an a it's an attunement, right? It's a resonance. It's grooving together. But if you've always just been by yourself, then you only know how to kind of Be connected to your own physiological responses.

20:14 I've worried about this before. I've worried that if I watch pornography that I will like desensitize myself to the real thing. Depends how much. Depends if what else is the in your life. I mean It's not an all or nothing thing. But what I'm saying is social atrophy The the cl the gradual disconnect of the multiple touch points between people. leads to then the challenges that are also sexual, leads to the kind of social isolation, leads to people confusing friends and friendships. So they can have a thousand virtual friends but no one to feed their cat. You know, it's it's it's all para.

20:55 No one to feed their cat. Yeah, who would pick up a prescription at the pharmacy? Who may pick me up at the airport? Who will go check on on s on someone I care about if I had happened to not be there? Yes, who shows up for me? Because it's foundational to trust. Who can I lean on? Do you have my back and I rely on you? So do you think the

21:17 Partnership. sex is in decline because because they're still having sex, but they're doing it on their own now with But that sex is in decline because social connection is in decline. Because people have less friends. Because people the statistics on who you call to when you are in trouble are

21:35 Really terrible. People have no one to confide in. So what how does that impact my sex with my partner? Well, you w you won't have a partner usually. What this statistic says is that there is no partner.

21:47 Young men without the age of thirty don't have sex with partners. This one here from the British Medical Journal says that married couples in the UK and US report a steady decline in sexual frequency. Yes. So it's basically the internet. Yeah, so here's how this works. How much time do you spend in front of a screen during the day? Nine hours. All right. And then you sometimes think now I'm gonna go home and I'm finally can close the screens. Yeah.

22:10 But then you're so tired that all you can do is watch T V. Yeah. And then while you watch T V you're also scrolling on your phone. And then while you're watching T V and scrolling on your phone there may be somebody sitting next to you that does the exact same thing. Yeah.

22:24 All right. And then somebody may even say something to the other person who goes, Uhhuh. Doesn't look at them. Uhhuh. Very interesting. And you really wonder why people are having less sex?

22:38 Mm-hmm. It is it's hard. It's hard. I'm gonna say it is hard. Right, so people are experiencing at that moment What I've come to call

22:49 Ambiguous loss. Ambiguous loss is when I'm actually with somebody But I don't feel The closeness, the intimacy, the connection from actually being with that person. I don't know if you're here or not here. And because loss is actually a term that was developed by Pauline Boss, a psychologist, who talked about it when you have a person who has Alzheimer's or dementia.

23:15 And they are actually physically in front of you, but they are emotionally or psychologically gone. Or people who are deployed or have disappeared or miscarriage where people are no longer physically there, but they are emotionally very, very present inside of you. In both cases you don't know are they here or are they not? Do I Say goodbye or do I hold on? When I am doing this

23:39 Looking at your phone. And I have like the st a still face. And I'm barely responding to you who said something that may be quite important. You don't know. Are you here? But you're not present. I'm with you, but I'm not experiencing any of the things that one experiences from the closen of being with you. Like

23:59 Alzheimer dementia, physically there, but psychologically elsewhere. Because it's not just that you're not here, it's that you're in another world. You've gone somewhere. You may be talking to who knows I guess this is the From reading your work, this is the crux of Many an argument.

24:16 The argument might sound like Oh, you didn't put the toilet seat down. But it's actually linked to Something else, something deeper under the surface. I I just see specifically when

24:30 Me and my partner have been away from each other for a long time. And then we come back together. I always know we're gonna argue for the first like one or two days. It's not even gonna be an argument. It's gonna be There's gonna be a problem. And the problem is usually around expectations, which is I come in and my head is still like I'm still a million miles away, maybe on a different frequency, thinking about lots of things. And I think she comes into that space expecting connection.

24:52 And I let her down. And we've tried to like call it out and say, Listen, when we come back together, let's just, you know Both make an effort in that direction. But um going back to your point of ambiguous loss, it's like it's almost like she's trying to test if I'm Connected to her.

25:09 And I Sometimes don't do a good job of that. 'Cause of how I come into that space. Like for example, right now I'm filming Dragon's Dem, which is a T V show in Manchester. And so I film three or four days a week, morning till night.

25:22 The minute I get off. From it. I'm back with her. So you can imagine everything hits me at once. Does it say? Yes. Like all of my team, all the to-do lists, everything. Steve, we need you to sign this off all at once, but then I'm back in front of her. Mm-hmm.

25:38 So she's experiencing that ambiguous loss. And the expectation was that we haven't seen each other for a while, so This is Yeah. So the question is

25:47 Can you Carve out. A half an hour. That's clean. An hour that's clean.

25:55 The connect. Yeah, but don't do that just for her. Yeah. that when you do what you do and it all is bleeding into each other and all your roles collapse into the same space. That it actually is doing something for you.

26:11 To you. Not for you, to you. And that to to actually Plose the phone. Tell people to call you in an hour.

26:20 And you won't miss a thing. And to actually drop in. is going to give you a a level of energy of oxytocin of well being That is way more important or as important as every supplement you may be swallowing.

26:38 Yeah,'cause you've it's true, I do not just for her. Yeah, I am excited to see her and I am excited to connect in here. I just m you said it wrong you said it correctly, like I just multi t I try and multitask. I I let everything down. And the boyfriend that's all in the same thing. Um It's an indigestion. So you're a fan of scheduling clean time? Yeah. Oh yeah.

27:01 It's you can call it scheduling, you can call it demarcation, you can call it delineation. We are social creatures who really orient ourselves in time and in space. When everything happens to us at the same time, we get headaches. they not always experienced us headaches, but we the in the fact we get a confusion inside. We're not here, we're not here, we're not here, we're not here. Okay? So you can call that scheduling or you can call it that you know, when you go to place when you go to the gym, you basically put on certain clothes, you prepare yourself for that. It's an activity that comes with a role, that comes with a set of

27:36 Things that comes with a delineation of time that makes you go to a certain space. where you're gonna go do that thing. And we this happens when you go out at night, this when you go to out for dinner, when you The same thing is for home. It's uh if you are going to spend a moment with her, however short it is, if it's clean And present? Not just kind of semi there.

28:00 ambiguously present. It will change a lot of things for you. For her and for the two of you. A group of ten of my closest friends. I put them all in the group chat. I told them I was gonna be speaking to you today. So I said to them, Can you tell me?

28:19 What question you have? These are all my own. Ten of my best friends that you wouldn't Ever say out loud. How can I be satisfied with just one sexual partner?

28:31 I have been unfaithful with my partner in the past. And I feel guilty about it, should I tell them? I no longer find my partner attractive. But I don't know how to tell her. I love her, but I don't find her attractive.

28:50 Those are probably the most interesting ones. I think the one that I would probably Uh address is also uh the infidelity

29:01 And about you Gil. That's that And also to this person read state of affairs because I spent many years writing this book about infidelity and trying to offer a very nuanced perspective on this very subject. But here's the thing. To tell somebody something just because you don't have a clean conscience and you feel guilty isn't always the kind thing to do.

29:26 Ask yourself what will happen to your partner or to your relationship for that matter, if you Speak about this now. And who you're doing it for? I think honesty sometimes is extremely caring and at other times can be very cruel. It cleanses you.

29:44 And it destroys another person. Deal with your responsibility and deal with your guilt and face the consequences of your behavior. and treat your partner with all the good things That actually say I now am willing to really invest in here and and make up for what I did without having to

30:06 destroy the narrative of the relationship. Because everybody has a story about their relationship. Everybody has a set of sharms about their relationship. And you are gonna come in and just say last year or two years ago or five years ago I did X, Y, and Z and from that moment on you rob the other person. of their narrative. You may think you did something that was honest. And sometimes that is the case, but many times you actually

30:38 create an enormous amount of hurt. If you feel guilty, it's not bad. Deal with your guilt. Face it. Take your responsibility. And make your relationship the best relationship you can and honor your partner in that way. Don't honor them by

30:53 Putting your dirt onto them. That is a different way of saying, and that is not for everyone. But I think that it is an important perspective to include here. Because we live in this era where transparency supposedly is the the best model for everything and people dish stuff out on other people that destroys them.

31:15 In the name of And when you're no longer attracted to your person, you know, ask yourself, what is that about? You know, is it Are you paying attention? Are you um А тінь пип дак і сам як ай лук атту And

31:32 I should just instantly have a response. You know? Um And sometimes It's also because I haven't really taken a good look.

31:43 And sometimes it's because what I'm looking at isn't necessarily anymore what draws me in. And sometimes it's it's not you know, attraction is a very flex fluid thing. It comes and go. When I'm angry at you, I'm not nearly as attracted to you as when I'm looking at you being so kind to someone and I say what a great person you are and I just want to come and And I run over and I wanna hug you and I wanna hold you. That's attraction too, right? We're not just talking about the attraction to have sex with somebody. Attraction is is in a in a is part of a story, it's part of a context.

32:16 You know, if you think that you're just going to watch Netflix for three hours, scroll on your phone for another two and then turn around and say, Oh You're so attractive and I'm so turned on by you. We you're you're off you're off. This is not the way that it works. And then W it's easy to replace the person and to just think you're you know

32:35 No shiny object we will be very attracted again. But Attraction is a part of an interaction. Th these two words have the s have the same etymological root. If there is zero interaction now, if you have a partner who neglects themselves, a partner who

32:52 You know There's lots of things that people also do that diminishes them. There was a woman in a in in a And

33:03 You know. There had been some hurt in the relationship and so she said I'm no longer attracted, which is not the same as I have no desire. Basically she had no desire. And she said, but I've worked talk we've talked everything out, we've discussed it. I said, Yeah, you may have discussed it, but your body shut down. Your body carries the anger, your body carries the hurt, your body carries the feelings, and your body doesn't want to open. So obviously it's not over. You know, so that too is attraction.

33:33 It is one of the most popular things that men whisper to me in silence, which is They can't seem to get the um and listen, I'm saying men because m my the majority of my good friends that would whisper to me are men. So it might be the case for women too, I just can't speak to that. Is that they are unsure how they could possibly be faithful. For a prolonged period of time.

33:57 Um And have one partner for a b pro long period of time. M women get bored with monogamy much sooner than men. Really? Yes. That's not what men think. No, men think she's not interested in sex.

34:16 And what they should probably replace it with is that she's not interested in the sex she's can ha she's gonna have. In order to want sex it needs to be sex that is worth wanting. For women to remain interested It needs to be interesting. And so

34:34 The fact that women don't necessarily experience the same liberties, at least historically and culturally all over the world that men do. So they remain In their homes. And they are not as unfaithful because there's been a double standard around infidelity forever everywhere in the world.

34:54 For this particular friend of mine. Where is that message? Uh what what should I say to him when he says How can you be satisfied with one sexual partner? That's literally just so you know that I'm not just Yeah believe some people at home might think that it's like me as a proxy of a Um But maybe you're not.

35:13 Maybe you're not, maybe you want to have more partners. Maybe you want your partner to have other partners too. That's not always so the case, right? He doesn't want to lose her. That's right. They've been together I think twenty five years. So you know Did it won't? Y you may have sometimes frustrations. If you it's a few options, right? You either say

35:34 We have a relationship that can welcome other people. We're not exclusive. But she's gonna leave then. It because she doesn't want that. Yeah. Okay. So then the next thing is as best as you can, make it as interesting and as fun and as pleasurable as it can be. And uh my first question to you is have you been doing the same old for God knows how many years

35:55 And with that in mind, I wouldn't be surprised that you're not that attracted or that she's not that interested for that matter. So if you want to be satisfied or more satisfied I mean you have a dialogue. You know, and the more satisfied means Mm.

36:13 bring more of yourself and and and make this experience More erotic. More pleasurable, more playful. More fulfilling. You may remain frustrated.

36:23 And you may say, I would love to have other people. And for that matter, maybe your partner wants would would want it too, but that's not the kind of relationship that she wants. That doesn't mean she hasn't thought about other people. And it certainly wouldn't mean that if she fantasises, she fantasizes about you. So everybody is keeping their secrets here. You know. Um and then the next thing is Are you putting more emphasis on the fact that you're not as satisfied having one sexual partner, or are you putting more focus on the fact that you're going to make this sexual experience with your partner as

36:57 pleasurable and rich as can be. If you find yourself more on the complaining side, then you're gonna be constantly more unsatisf dissatisfied. I think much of it is actually. He and many others want the best of all worlds and in life we're not willing to accept trade offs. So in your saying you're saying make a decision. If you want that life, then

37:18 Be honest about that life. If you don't want that life, then make it spicy and better. go buy all the food and and and and cook at home and make it more rich and more interesting if you don't want to have the same dinner every night in the house. The question is what are people doing to make their relationships more vibrant, more erotic, more alive. I mean this is really You you by the way, it's not about having more sex. You can have more sex at and not feel much. It's about making it more alive and vibrant. That is what much of my work is about, is cultivating the eroticism and the aliveness in relationships.

37:57 on the fr on the personal front. And you ask people what do you do to make it rich and interesting? The laziness, the complacency, the constant same old, same old, and then the complaint about it, and then you say that is that is really self defeating. Are you frustrated with people as though? No, I smile at it. I s I I I just I I smile at the the way that we can lie to ourselves.

38:27 I smile at the way we can complain about others. And as if that we have no implication. I smile at the way we don't want to take responsibility for actually getting the things that we really want. You must see the same patterns over and over again. Those ones I do, not all, but this kind of pattern Which is actually why I've run expanded to from only working in the romantic sphere to working also in the workplace because relationships are richer than just this. And

38:57 I think that This friend. I would have a five minute conversation. With him. And I would ask him these very questions.

39:08 And we ask uh the partner also those very questions. And I would have a few ideas. It's not Uber complicated. You gonna record me to him? No, I'm just gonna Okay.

39:21 What would you say to him? What's his name? Let's call him John. John. Yeah. So Yes, John. It's we are we are not necessarily uh

39:35 curious only about one partner. Many people would like to have other partners. in the context of your relationship, that is not an option for you, as I understand. So if that is the situation and you really deeply care about your partner and your relationship with her Then the next question is What do you do to energize your relationship? to bring playfulness, curiosity, imagination

40:03 eroticism, as in life force, as in aliveness, not as in sex. to your relationship. Are you Bringing the leftovers home and the best of yourself goes to work. Or are you also bringing your creativity, your energy?

40:18 Your curiosity to your relationship. My sense is that if you do that There is a good chance that you will actually have a more satisfying erotic connection with your partner. That doesn't mean you won't have interest, curiosity, fantasies about others, but it will free you from this position in which you just kinda say I'm bored, I'm not satisfied, I would like a little more diversity and all of that. And f just for you, do not imagine that you're the only one in your relationship who thinks this way and wants this.

40:52 It's just that You may have a partner who doesn't want the consequences of it. That doesn't mean she wouldn't fantasize about the plurality herself. I'm gonna send that.

41:04 Please listen. Hmm. To the ad hoc intervention. Yeah.

41:14 Honest. Have you ever done that? On your podcast. And Perell said we've been uh m often More Quickly border with monogamy than men.

41:29 And that is the secret that people do not understand. That means that in order for her to remain engaged, it has to remain more engaging and interesting and fun and pleasurable. And if it's just to get it done and just to do it for the sake of doing it, then she really can often spare it. And while men are much more able to remain actually contrary to what he describes, to remain interested. That doesn't mean they don't want others as well, but they can remain more interested in

41:59 Their partner. without having to change it like that. And It is interpreted as women are less interested in sex. W rather than women need more in order to remain interested. They need more of the emotional stuff, right? Not necessarily. Not only. They need more imagination, more risque, more connection, more attention, more of a lot of whatever is her thing.

42:21 Right. Okay. It's one of the The most important things I learned actually that that kind of Turn it around for me.

42:30 Because once you begin to look at it like that, it sh it plays with this Classic gender division men want, women doesn't. Boring. It's we it's like It becomes true just because we say it all the time, but that doesn't mean it is. This is true for a lot of these gender things.

42:47 Um So my friend replied and the essence of what they said, yes. He said She's right, full stop. The intimacy in our relationship has died, and it died so long ago that I think part of me doesn't feel like I can revive it anymore. We're so used to the relationship being off.

43:02 Okay. Put the f m put the mic on. Okay. Yeah. Alright, John. Here's what I would suggest.

43:11 Um I think that you can just simply say I You know, Steve approached me and asked me if I had a question for a stupor. And I just threw out this thing. At first I was just kind of flippant about it. I just thought What do you do when you you know. But in fact, when she answered

43:29 I realized you know, that this is a bigger thing between us. And this is an emptiness and a gap that we allowed to create and that I have contributed to. And I don't just want to leave it at that. So I thought I'm gonna sit down and actually write to you. I wanna just write some of my thoughts because Uh, I think when we sit we avoid the subject. we circle around it or I avoid it or I'm defensive about it or anyway, whatever it is that I've done, I don't know you enough, John, to know the details of that.

44:01 And then you just really say, you know, something died a long time ago and I feel awkward about it, but I miss it and I miss you and I miss us and I would like to know if you are willing to reengage with me and for us to rekindle. It's desire goes through intermittent eclipses. It's like the moon. It disappears but it can reappear. And I would love to invite you to re engage with me to bring back the light. The spark inside of us. Because we can do it, we are more than just this, and because just living side by side.

44:35 I don't think it's gonna be enough for either of us. And I'm prepared to do my part. Would you be willing to do yours? Yeah.

44:44 That was beautiful. That was beautiful. And then let's see if it still answers us before it. I made the biggest investment I've ever made in a company because of my girlfriend. I came home one night and my lovely girlfriend was up at one AM in the morning pulling her hair out as she tried to piece together her own online store for her business. And in that moment, I remembered an email I'd had from a guy called John.

45:11 The founder of Stan Store. Our new sponsor and a company I've invested heavily in. And Stan still helps creators to sell digital products, courses, coaching, and memberships all through a simple customizable link in bio system. And it handles everything: payments, bookings, emails, community engagement, and even links with Shopify. And I believe in it so much that Then I'm going to launch A stanza. Challenge.

45:35 And as part of this challenge, I'm gonna give away one hundred thousand dollars to one of you. If you want to take part in this challenge, if you want to monetize the knowledge that you have, visit Stephen Bartlett. Dot stan dot store to sign up. And you'll also get an extended thirty day free trial of Stan Store if you use that link. Your next move. Could quite frankly change everything. Are you hearing a lot of couples in your practice?

45:58 Increasingly say. either member of the couple that they Don't like having sex. Not more than before. I wrote a book twenty years ago that was all about the dilemmas of desire. I always heard it. No, I don't think that they are fundamental changes around that. I think the changes are the fact that people are spending less for time together where they are actually attentive to each other.

46:22 They're half there. Their pr attention is fragmented. They're multitasking all the time. The that's what is changing. And if you have less connection Less attention, less intimacy, less inter d why do you think that people are suddenly gonna be turned on? But is the sex getting less interesting? No. Their life with each other is less interesting.

46:46 And this last time when I spoke to you like this, you told me at me Their life is less interesting. The sex is the is the consequence of of seven other things before. God, they haven't said anything interesting to each other. They haven't laughed, they haven't kissed each other, they haven't looked at each other, they haven't barely touched each other, and suddenly the text the sex needs to be, you know, all hot and and and and passionate on what freaking basis? The life is not interesting.

47:18 Their communication, their interaction, their conversations, their attention to each other, the fact that they matter, the fact that their presence means something in each other's lives. That's what is all connected to long term sex. Long term sex doesn't come just from because you l I look at you and I'm And I'm all hot. It it it's a different uh mechanism. So You're asking a question that happens here.

47:44 And I am telling you, if all of this is rather boring And Uh. Unengaged. It's like at work.

47:53 You know, I'm doing a lot of this stuff around work now. It's like if the engagement is low. On what basis do we think people are gonna perform? The performance is here, but the performance is a response to the engagement, which is a response to the culture, which is a response to the quality of the relationships between the people who work together. It's the same in the personal realm. Mm-hmm. What element of responsibility do I have

48:19 In making sure that my relationship with myself Is great. In order to have a great relationship with someone else. 'Cause a lot of people like to blame. Okay.

48:30 Fix my premise. The premise is That it's time for us to begin to question the intense level of individualism And self Thinking, self love, self care, self fulfillment, self awareness. It's all about the self in front. And the presumption is that if all those levels of the self have been attended to, we will be better able to attend to other people.

48:54 So what do you think about this culture of self care and self love and I think it's gone overboard. I think it's it's a distortion. I think it feeds consumerism. I think that there's a lot of elements of it that are highly important, but we have completely lost The fact that what actually

49:14 is at the root of well being, happiness, longevity, meaning is in our relationships and our connections with others as well as with ourselves. When you give to others you will let's depressed. When you are m when you feel like you make a difference in other people's life, it makes you feel better chemically too. If you go on the street and you make some you give compliments to people and you tell them that they look really great or this this beautiful what they're wearing, and you've made a smile on someone's face, your oxytocin levels go up too. Doing for others makes us feel better about ourselves as well. Not all the time, and not every circumstance, but that voluntary connecting and and and being engaged with other people. Whereas being engaged with oneself, have you seen at the gym how people are super engaged with themselves lifting and but nobody's interacting with anybody. And many of these people go home and there's nobody there, huh? It's not like they're doing this for someone that that's waiting for them.

50:14 Relating to yourself is not a goal in and of itself. It is a step to something. But it's not in and of itself an achievement. The goal is r relating to others. The goal is is Yes. is having meaningful relationships, meaningful connections with other people and other causes that are beyond yourself.

50:35 Part of why we are so miserable and so unhappy and so Is because we are so constantly focused on ourselves. There's the world, there's nature, there's politics, there's climate, there's people, there's poverty, there's a ton of things to be interested in. There's art, there's creativity, there's a lot of things that are beyond us. That is beyond maximizing and optimizing and hacking and focusing on myself and navel gazing. And I am a therapist and I work with individuals who I am helping to have a better relationship with themselves and deal with what stands in the way to relate to others, not what stands in the way to feel good about me.

51:17 Period. With gender roles rev reversing, have you seen men get increasingly emasculated? By the success of women? In your practice. And have you seen also the woman

51:28 Yeah. sort of frustrated with the man because he's now Not the breadwinner. There was this that I saw that said again. Rough numbers. Seventy percent of women expect the man to be the bread.

51:39 Bread winner? But then there's this bigger social narrative that actually no fifty fifty or you know equality is the case. Um and I was sat here with a guy who runs runs the men and boys clinic. I think it's called the Men and Boys Institute or something. Richard Reeves. Mm-hmm. And Richard W Reeves was a stay at home dad.

51:58 And then His partner, you know, and r doing all of this work about men inequality that you know A self proclaimed feminist, I believe. And then his wife turned around to him one day and was like Yeah.

52:12 And I've heard this quite a lot. I've heard from my successful Female friends. that part of the reason they think they can't find a man is that men feel emasculated by their success. And on the counterpoint, I'm wondering if it goes the other way. Can I do this a little differently? Sure, please, whatever. Emasculation is a word that doesn't exist in the feminine.

52:33 It's always been a masculine concern. Which is part of why I said to you that masculinity Is an identity that constantly has to prove itself. If it was so solid. It wouldn't have to constantly

52:48 Have to show you that it really is serious and it it's it's the real thing. There is you know those things do not translate on the feminine side. The word loser doesn't exist in the feminine either. Yeah. And this is historical, this is not new. That men have had the challenge with powerful women is not new.

53:08 That women have wanted men to be both. powerful and nurturing is not new. That fathers have often been as tender to it there. I think that there's a um that for me The co the

53:23 The engagement with some of your question is that It plays into a whole discourse. about men and women that at this point somehow puts them completely apart each one kind of more and more angry at the other side, and I don't really want to participate in that. The women are talking about the useless this and the men are talking about the bitches that and I don't find that helpful. People I don't think it's true.

53:51 I think there are fathers and men all over the world doing everything they can to save their family, their wives, their m you know, it has nothing to do just with how much they earn. The world is filled with people who want to give a better life to their family and to their children, men who work Day and night in order to provide. And I think that to turn this conversation into that Section.

54:15 that is in that we are referring to It's true it exists, but it is not a fair rendering of men. Of masculinity, of fathers, of brothers, of husbands. And of wives. Um that there is a group of women who are out earning the men, yes, women have out earned the men for a long time, in all kinds of industries, not just at the higher levels.

54:39 Um that men have stм home as primary parents. I think gay couples have shown us a whole new range. It's like it's time to kind of move on a little bit. Do you know when you say that w you know we need to r know how to relate to each other? And I think you said that it starts with being aware of ourselves. Is that roughly what you said? That it starts with having the sort of a self awareness of

55:04 Yourself? I think that the it's a constant combination because what I'm saying is that in order to have self awareness. You need to understand Your connection with others. Your self awareness is not developed here. Alone by myself.

55:20 You get to know yourself through your relationships with people. It is in the presence of another that we discover ourselves. And this is in part why I'm asking these questions, because I think for a lot of men, we've understood who we are by how we relate and the role we play for others. Historically. So like I kind of understand much of who I am. Right. When you see me with my partner. Yeah. Because I will grab the door, I will grab the bags, I will help solve problems in a more logical like I'm very like

55:47 Tell me how to fix it. And you understand the I understand myself by Bing. How I relate to her. taking care of her is part of my

55:57 Identity to me. Mm-hmm. So In a in such a world, I think the question becomes like what is it to be What is it to be a man? And if I don't know what that is, I find it harder to relate to Others.

56:09 One of the things I love to do, but that's not on a societal level. That's me in my work. When I do retreats, relationship retreats. I um we have one that I'm gonna do in in October in Greece and and I have I do fishbowls and I put all the men in a fishbowl or all those who identify as men for that matter. And I have the women just listen. The people around.

56:34 And for an hour did Or more or two, they talk about Everything you just brought up. Their challenges, their frustrations, their hopes, their aspirations, their losses, their self doubt, their shame, their shadows. And people listen without judgment.

56:50 We don't opinions just receive the the gift of having somebody be willing to expose themselves like that. It's extremely moving. It's very beautiful. And you learn a ton. And you learn uh how much of your projections are you know, standing in the way, how much you you you make assumptions without really knowing how hard it is to truly listen.

57:16 That's when it becomes to me. beautiful, worthwhile and and things change, things become softer. And people start to weep. in front of total strangers and you realize Humanity is bigger than gender.

57:31 Gender is important, super important, but there is another layer that is just our humanity. And at this moment in our society where there's tons of uncertainties That connecting on a human level to me supersedes. Some of these gender wars. There's lots of it. I don't and and I leave it to others to comment on that. But my

57:52 Work is to create alternative Conversations, better conversations. Are you hopeful? In those moments I'm very hopeful. When they leave the retreat. And they go back onto the algorithms.

58:06 I hope that m some of them will do that, and some of them will actually experience a profound change. You know, but in the moment I feel like I can do something. I'm hopeful when I can do something. When I can contribute, when I can create something that's really special. That's that you know, I'm not hopeful when I'm helpless. When I'm passive.

58:29 So in those moments I am hopeful because something really Beautiful is happening. You know, when people connect at a deeper level it is very very meaningful beat at work Or be it at home. I mean it it it's anywhere at this point where I can create these connections. People

58:48 I mean that sentence that I Take with me all over the all the time. It's the quality of your relationships will determine the quality of your lives. And my work is about helping you have better relationships, be more confident. be more connected. I I I can analyze a lot of these statistics, but I don't know what to do with it.

59:08 Be more confident. Yes. What is confidence in that regard? Confidence is when you are able to see yourself as a flawed person and still hold yourself in high regard. That's from my friend Terry Real.

59:25 It is a great definition of confidence. It's not when I um when I know when I'm sure. It's none of that. It's actually when I see myself as flawed. But I still hold myself in high regard. That means I'm confident. And is there is there work one can do to get to such a place? Yes. course work and life experience and maturity.

59:48 But for a lot of people their work and life experience knocks them down to make them think they're just a thaw Yeah, just a Floored person. Yeah, I that's what I thought when I was in my twenties and thirties too. And if I made a mistake I could obsess about it for three weeks.

1:00:03 Now it's three hours. Sometimes three days if it's really bad. But you know, you do you you learn to accept You make mistakes and life goes on and you try again. So there's no shortcut. You know.

1:00:15 No, no, no, no. Is there anything else? No, it builds on itself. The nice thing about it is that it builds on itself. It adds layer by layer, step by step. Is there anything one can do to accelerate that process? Why? So that we can become more confident quicker. No, that's called arrogance.

1:00:35 Yeah. When a when a when the twenty two year old You know, sometimes it's arrogant. I mean there listen, there are things you can feel confident about very early on. And and you've tried them. And then there's other things. It's also not I am confident. I'm confident about certain things. You can trust me on some things. You should not trust me to get you to a certain place. Neither on time, neither without getting lost.

1:00:59 So I've zero confidence in that area. But I'm quite confident in some of the things that I do and confidence doesn't mean that I know Oh then I'm right. І за ампред тоді. And be mistaken and not know

1:01:14 And try again. Few different people can go through the same experience and one of their confidence Yes, that is the biggest Mystery. Question.

1:01:27 Why? Two people. With the same story. For one it becomes what brings their resilience and what gives them the drive and what makes them Mm.

1:01:38 The people that are engaged with life and the world and for the other person it's what broke them. It's what crushed them, it's what uh makes it so impossible for them to actually put one foot in front of the other. And If you can ever tell me why this inverses that you know, why this person to It is one of the great mystery questions for any therapist for that matter, and and in general, why the same circumstances

1:02:04 Build the strength of one and become the weakness of the other. It's clearly some kind of A pair of sunglasses in between what happened and is that for many people

1:02:21 who have major adverse circumstances, but manage to turn use them and turn them and and really make a beautiful life for themselves. It usually there was one d defining factor that differentiates them from everybody else who had similar circumstances is that they had somebody who believed in them. A coach

1:02:42 A teacher, a neighbor. Not necessarily a p a family member. Actually. Because the adversity is often in the family. So

1:02:51 Somebody who believed in you when you didn't believe in yourself and didn't give up even when you were fucking up. I had um a lady called Doctor Lisa Feldman on the podcast recently, who's a neuroscientist. And one of the things she said to me has really stayed with me. I think about it a lot and I talk about it a lot, which is um She said to me.

1:03:10 She told me the story of a young lady who grew up and had some Mm-hmm. an aggressive uncle who would like beat her. And this young lady, she was good in school, she slept well, everything was fine. And then many years later, this young lady was watching Oprah Winfrey's show and it was about domestic abuse. And There was women on there crying and talking about their trauma and all those things. And

1:03:31 Essentially This young lady suddenly started to experience the symptoms of trauma. Mm-hmm. Unproductive in education. Couldn't sleep as well. And visibly traumatized.

1:03:41 The trauma hadn't appeared. There was wasn't symptomatic. Up until she watched. This show with Oprah.

1:03:48 And it made me think that is there a possibility that some of our trauma not all of it, but some of it Is Like contagious? Why we give meaning to it. When someone tells us the meaning of what happened to us.

1:04:03 Like are we giving meaning to the things that happen to us? And it goes to what we were saying here about you can go through the same two d thing, but interpret it differently. Do we inherit the meaning externally from somewhere? You know, it's interesting'cause I think about this a lot with that things like anxiety. I'm like It feels like you know I know the world has changed and we're less connected, but it does feel like Had I not known that anxiety existed.

1:04:27 I probably I'm unsure whether I I would have personally experienced it. I think That the the anxiety culture actually kinda made me anxious. It made me label the feeling. And I'm just wondering if you have a perspective on this idea that we like give meaning to Our experience and then that

1:04:45 Yes, of course, all the time. We give meaning to everything. We are meaning making machines. And if you don't do an individual meaning attribution, you get a collective, cultural, social attribution. In our society we may call it anxiety, in another society we may call it the ancestors are unhappy. Yeah.

1:05:09 Somebody is a spirit is knocking at your door. Somebody has not been properly mourned. Somebody's being Um degraded. So so there's every ill ease, every disease

1:05:24 has a story, has a meaning. has an attribution. The words change. That's on a cultural level. I think it's very important to not just individualize these things and think I give meaning. You d we give the meaning that our culture has taught us to give. You've learned you you so you've

1:05:42 kind of become you're part of the anxiety generation. So you put you give words of anxiety, stress Burnout there's a whole lingo. That is r that didn't exist forty years ago, by the way. I mean those words existed, but they were not nearly in the vernacular of the moment. They were not part of the therapy speak of the jour. You know, they were not on TikTok.

1:06:03 So There were other words that were people who used and You know, every century. has certain names. Hysteria? We don't hear much about hysteria these days. There was a nineteenth century thing.

1:06:16 It's mental health now. So we change the words. But we still are trying to give meaning. Two are Il ease.

1:06:27 I guess this is a question of identity as well, which is Who do I think I am? And who I think I am. We'll probably become Who I am.

1:06:35 At least as it relates to relating to people. No. No. Who do you think you are is part of who you are. And how other people see you.

1:06:45 Is also a part of who you are. We are constantly looking at ourselves from the inside and from the outside. We do not exist. Without the inter integration of also To gaze from the outside in.

1:07:00 And it's a two way street all the time. So if I think I'm a late person, you said, you know Get there on time. Um Then I'm likely to be late.

1:07:10 Of more. Because I can I've identified with that. becomes part of my character, it starts to become how I predict. My future. And Lisa Felman was saying to me that the brain is this prediction machine. So it's like predicting

1:07:22 Um what to what it will do next based on the past. So My identity is like a prediction of what I'll become and you know I think of this may be a prediction, but that doesn't mean your identity.

1:07:36 Don't confuse identity with behavior. It's it's it's They are connected, but your identity is a lot more than your behavior. Yeah. You know, at GFK there are three lines. At the airport. Yeah.

1:07:51 One is for the tourists, one is for the American passport holder, and one is for the resident alien. The tourist may have been Living in the State for years. But They don't have the papers.

1:08:05 So the internal definition is not recognized by the external. The American you may have been living your whole life abroad, but you were born in the US. So you have the papers, you have the external recognition. But the internal one doesn't match. And then the resident alien is the one who has been there a long time.

1:08:23 But doesn't have the Is a guest of some sort, right? Um and I find that a fascinating moment to understand identity. When you stand there.

1:08:36 What is external, what is seen from other how others recognize you. And think and w how others define who you are and how you define who you are. And this is these are conversations. The the question that you're asking about trauma is a whole It's a different question. Because

1:08:55 The trauma is not the event itself. The trauma is often in the experience of the event without an empathic witness. Without an either. is often the fact that you experience something without an empathic witness. Well it's not the fact that the the the

1:09:15 Yeah, it it's not the event itself. And so what happens is she sees the opera show, and it's not just that she sees the women. tell their stories, but she sees Oprah with her unique Kind of empathy.

1:09:31 Respond to the women. and may give value to their experience and acknowledge it. And express the sadness that comes with it and the devastation that they may have experienced. Empathic witness. Who gives

1:09:49 Not just meaning to your story, but because before you can give meaning you even have to acknowledge it. Mm-hmm. You have to recognize that it even happened. And in many of those situations it's the lack of acknowledgement that is the most traumatic, not the thing itself. Or not only the thing it's the fact that nobody even admits that this took place. So as she's watching

1:10:13 This empathic resonance in front of her Something opens inside of her that allows her to finally recogni weep, cry, acn you know, her do her own acknowledgement and realize what was done to her. That's a different way of interpret and I have no idea if that is true. But just to give you another reading of what may have happened to this woman. And for a while she will not sleep, and for a while she

1:10:40 Because suddenly In order to finally come to admit something, you need to feel safe. To let it happen. And when you watch the opera show with those women, this is I just did the opera. So I I I had the people and I see how she it's it's an amazing Moment of

1:10:58 Being held. And experiencing a container that allows you to experience the pain that you've been holding in. Interesting. I I was It's a very interesting um alternative perspective. Especially this idea of this the empathic witness and the minute you see empathy shown to your experience.

1:11:21 Um in such a way. Yeah, maybe you have permission to feel in a way that you didn't get to feel. But also in that environment, I imagine there was a studio audience. And they were providing empathy and there was open there providing empathy. And then you had someone she could relate to Who in that scenario was

1:11:38 Being held. And had a label, like an implicit label attached to their experience. But she does it without audience now, and Um it's just it's I think it was a long time ago. So we just used to have a ship many decades ago.

1:11:52 Huh. I was my first time on the Opera Show in eighty seven. Eighty seven. With a studio audience? Yeah. How was it? It wasn't A very powerful experience for a woman, a young woman as I was back then. It was just like

1:12:09 This is quite embarrassing for me to admit. But if you know me well, there's something that you know about me, which is a function of my personality, and that is that I lose everything. I've lost my wallet, I've lost multiple passports, I now actually have two passports because there's a high probability of me losing one. And when you lose your wallet overseas, as I have many times, it's a particular inconvenience because you also lose your driving license and your credit cards and those kinds of things. And that's why I'm so happy that our show sponsor XT have invented this thing I have in my hand. They have partnered with Apple's Find My Technology. So all I have to do. is open that app and play a noise and it will tell me where my wallet is. Extra wallets are slim, they're made of recycled aluminium and they block various types of digital theft. And with one click your cards can pop up.

1:12:53 And all ready to go. So if this sounds like the kind of thing you or a friend needs, visit extra.com. You can use code Steven and you'll get 10% off, plus free shipping and a 100 day trial. That's extra.com and use code Steven at checkout. I think B2B marketers keep making this mistake. They're chasing volume instead of quality. And when you try to be seen by more people instead of the right people, all you're doing is making noise, but that noise rarely shifts the needle. And it's often quite expensive. And I know, as there was a time in my career where I kept making this mistake, that many of you will be making it too. Eventually, I started posting ads on our show sponsors platform LinkedIn, and that's when things started to change.

1:13:33 I put that change down to a few critical things. One of them being that LinkedIn was then and still is today the platform where decision makers go to, not only to think and learn, but also to buy. And when you market your business there, you're putting it right in front of people who actually have the power to say yes. And you can target them by job title, industry, and company size. It's simply a sharper way to spend your marketing budget. And if you haven't tried it, How about this? Give LinkedIn ads a try, and I'm going to give you a hundred dollar ad credit to get you started. If you visit linkedin.com slash diary, you can claim that right now. That's linkedin.com slash diary.

1:14:10 So if I made you president of the entire world and your job was to prevent the the social atrophy this decay of social connections and relationships. And you had to take three steps. On a global basis. to they can be drastic steps. You can delete mobile phones. Oh God. They can be any drastic step you want to take. I think that things are lived in the details, not in the big things. Okay.

1:14:33 You know Where was I recently? I went to a place and I remember making the comment everybody says hello. People said hello. People wait. Friendly.

1:14:47 When you when you went into a place When you were on the street, when you went it was like I said, Oh my God, I have I I have not been in a place. It felt small enough, but it wasn't small. Where people kept saying hello, have a nice day, this looks very good, you know. So It's that basic. So you'd make it a law?

1:15:08 No, I don't le legislate these things per at at all. I think it's more of a of a it's a cultural shift. It's a it's a return to to to practices that still are prevalent in many other parts of the world. Talking to strangers. Yes, talking to strangers. Okay, so you're gonna make it illegal not to be a stranger. Um makes it illegal not to talk to strangers during this. Illegal. No, no, I said don't bring the law into it.

1:15:37 It it's much more art than law. Anybody who these days can make people laugh or sing together is doing Holy work. So go sing with people or go Because when you sing together you create r you create a collective resonance.

1:15:55 You you actually it are bringing that resonance that it is very empathic, it's very kind, it's compassionate, it's caring, it's playful. It brings out a whole set of other things in people. And the third thing would be teach people how to have conflict. You asked me before when when when when you argue with your with your partner. I think

1:16:21 I think that the m the majority of our arguments are about three basic things. This is based on on how it markman's work, but you know, it's not the issue you're fighting about. Actually what you can often ask is what is it that you're fighting for? And what people fight for when they argue whatever thing they're doing it.

1:16:42 Spat about. They fight for power and control. Who makes the decision? And whose priorities matter most. They fight for trust.

1:16:54 For care and closeness. Can I trust you? Do you have my back? Can I lean on you? Can I rely on you? Will you show up for me? And they fight for Respect and recognition. Do you value me? Do I matter? And does this all translate to work? You've you've now started doing a lot more work with businesses and companies around sort of their work and culture and connection and relationships in the workplace. All of those things you just listed there.

1:17:18 Are they also the reasons why our relationships are successful or unsuccessful in a work environment. Absolutely. So I actually have been uh working with corporations and in the business world for quite a while um and have been talking in and speaking in for co with corporations and companies. But what is new is that I I became an advisor to a number of companies. In particular in this case with culture amp.

1:17:43 And and the reason that became such a wonderful collaboration is because I brought my clinical expertise and they're bringing massive amounts of data science. people science, one point five billion experience survey points. I mean it's just like so it's no no no longer just my intuitive sense, it's backed It's And We created this card game because my original card game

1:18:09 People want to the corporate was demanding for it, but every time they had to take out the cards with the pink triangles, which were the sex Questions in order to make it work safe. Say for work. So I said, Okay, let's create a game just for the workplace that will create meaningful relationships at work. And

1:18:31 What's fascinating is that what the research showed is that there are four major Relational pillars. да аклі сустай десь quality of relationships in the workplace, and they are directly connected to this. three things that I said we fight for. So one was

1:18:50 Trust. Yeah. One was belonging. Okay, so on trust, how do I know what what is trust in specific terms? What does that mean? Trust is a leap of faith.

1:19:01 Trust is a sense that It that is really it's an active engagement with the unknown. says Rachel Botsman. It's like Чст із нот I know for sure. Trust is I don't know m for sure and I'm willing

1:19:17 To believe it. That's the definition of the word trust. And in a work context, what does that mean? It means that I can rely on you. Yeah. Yeah.

1:19:29 Um that you Uh you have my back? Yeah. That you're not gonna betray me, you're not going to put your interests ahead of mine. You are not going to take credit where the when it's not yours.

1:19:43 Um that you care about me and that we are part of something together. So trust then connects directly to a sense of belonging. That we are part Of a group, of a company. And and and m I get a certain sense of who I am by virtue of my sense of connection to this group, and the group defines me and gets my contribution. So it's a Mutual.

1:20:08 experience. Mutuality is essential to living organisms, be it in nature or in social ecological systems. And There is recognition. This is essential because I could achieve and perform and meet the productivity goals and all of that, but if nobody pays attention to it It doesn't really meet the needs.

1:20:35 But the biggest one is the collective resilience. To me that's the one that really stands out because Resilience isn't an individual matter only. It's not just a set of traits that exists inside of you and that you need to tap into in order to face adversity and all of that. Resilience is how we at this point in particular Are able to respond creatively and adaptively and flexibly to all the changes that are happening. The workplace is in massive flux. Massive flux.

1:21:10 And from a relational point of view, it's huge. And it is Basically at this point. becoming no longer just the soft skills. It's becoming the No bottom line, basically.

1:21:22 Esther, thank you so much. Thank you so much for the work that you do. I I when I've met you the first time, I was convinced that you're in fact An alien from another planet. Because you have an ability to understand situations. Um

1:21:35 At a deeper, more intuitive level than anyone I've ever met, specifically as it relates to just like the human condition and the way that we are, the excuses to make, the patterns of a human. And it really like shocked me. You were able to see through me. In a way that I did not like.

1:21:50 But I appreciate it. Um and it's really remarkable. There's very few people I've ever met that are like that. That have that ability. It's a really, really special thing. Um And it's been the cause of so much

1:22:03 Healed. We have a tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not knowing who they leave it for. Question left for you is How are you going to adapt to a world

1:22:16 of AI and robots. I am going to Uh Use AI

1:22:31 as a tool, as I just did an hour before I came here, I was in a meeting And we were generating ideas. And Uh and one of us asked d DA Uh

1:22:43 Exactly this. Uh what would you see is the next step in the collaboration between what would be bold collaborations between Esteperel and Culture Amp? The very company that with whom I created the card. And D A I gave us incredible ideas, but it was both. We had AI and we had the people. The people could use the AI. The AI became way more relevant because it had the people. So as long as I can use it as a tool.

1:23:14 Um to foster the communication and to generate ideas and between me and others I think that um I am still shaping it and it is helping me. I would hope that it doesn't just begin to shape me.

1:23:34 Or us. all and make us into a species that none of us can yet imagine. Some people f are very much looking forward to that new species. I kind of like the ones we've been We are imperfect creatures. We're unpredictable. But there is something fascinating about human beings that has

1:23:55 been the core of my work. Thank you. Again, I'll link the cards below for everyone to go in. Get it. I think I'm I think I'm gonna use them in at the very start of the week with my teams. So just to kind of

1:24:07 Create a bit of a space where we can connect with each other before we get into More difficult work, but also there's other sort of work environments when I have new investments and stuff like that. It's a big one. You can do it one on one, you can do it onboarding, you can do it off site. But there is something about the a weekly meeting, all hands on deck kind of meeting where we do a card. One person each. Yeah.

1:24:30 I can tell you and especially when it's remote, which you are not, but there everybody knows The the the lackluster attention that you can get in a Zoom meeting. with everybody doing five other things at the same time. You just need to track the eyes. But once people start to tell stories like this

1:24:49 People get the others are interested and are listening, it changes the whole dynamic. So uh it's a beautiful ritual. To have your weekly start with a few cards. Um Esther, thank you so much. For all that you do. I so wonderful to see you. I feel like you you helped correct me. And uh in an important way.

1:25:09 What was one of them today? When you were talking about the dementia and the outzheimers and that word ambiguous loss. I felt I felt that. Because I think sometimes

1:25:22 Sometimes I um I create that impression. And my one of my uh ex girlfriends said that to me. She said Even if you're sat next to me, I feel like you're a million miles away. And I remember thinking it's such a horrible way to make someone feel, you know? And my girlfriend, it's what a wonderful thing it is for someone to want your attention and to want you to hug them and to want you to

1:25:39 care about them and to look at them. What a wonderful privilege that is. And till I can sort that privilege by Being a million miles away, I just thought it was a horrible thing I it is that Yeah. How often during the day do you send a Just a little sweet nutting.

1:25:54 I know, I need to do that more. I don't know. Much it changes a person's Yeah. Just to say that you're thinking about them as well,'cause I do think about them but I just don't I don't

1:26:05 You know. See you saying it to me. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I'm going to say it to her. I'm gonna s I'm gonna tell her now, Esther. Okay? Life is lived in the details.

1:26:16 It's all these small things. It's not it's like the when you ask about the w changing of the world. I ca I don't think in these big things. And this You know, when it's done Authentically. It's not big and it

1:26:33 I'm good. Yeah. Okay. Okay. That

1:26:38 puts energy into a relationship. She said oh with a little hot face She said sweetheart. She's typing. Okay, you got it. No, I don't know. The hardest conversations are often the ones we avoid. But what if you had the right question to start them with? Every single guest on the Direver CO has left behind a question.

1:27:03 In this Diary. And it's a question designed to challenge, to connect, and to go deeper with the next guest. And these are all the questions that I have here. In my hand. On one side you've got the question that was asked. The name of the person who wrote it. And on the other side, if you scan that

1:27:19 You can watch the person who came after You answered it. Fifty one questions split across three different levels, the warm up level, the open up level, and the deep level. So you decide how deep the conversation goes. And people play these conversation cards in boardrooms at work, in bedrooms, alone at night. On first dates. And everywhere in between.

1:27:40 I'll put a link to the conversation cards in the description below, and you can get yours at thediary.com. This has always blown my mind a little bit. Fifty-three percent of you that listen to this show regularly haven't yet subscribed to the show. So could I ask you for a favor? If you like the show and you like what we do here and you want to support us, the free simple way that you can do just that is by hitting the subscribe button. And my commitment to you is if you do that, then I'll do everything in my power, me and my team, to make sure that this show is better for you every single week. We'll listen to your feedback, we'll find the guests that you want me to speak to, and we'll continue to do what we do. Thank you so much.

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