Advice Line with Bobby Trussell of Tempur-Pedic

0:07 Hello and welcome to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show, who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800. 433-1298. Leave us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you like help with. All right, let's get to it. Joining me today is Bobby Trussell, founder and former CEO of Temper Pedic. Bobby, welcome back to the show. Thanks, Guy. Great to be here. It's great to have you. You were first back on the show in 2018. I love your story. It's a st a lot of people ask me what my favorite episodes are, and I can't answer, but I I do cite yours often because it's such an unlikely story. You you are in Kentucky, you started your career horse racing, you were reading thoroughbreds, and when you were in your 40s.

1:04 Uh there was a recession, the money up, and you were about a million dollars in debt. I mean you were more than broke. And through a an unusual connection in the horse world you came across a product. In Sweden of all places that we we now know as memory foam, and you thought

1:21 This could make the perfect Mattress. Basically Gambled everything, you brought it to America. uh and you made mattresses and you've essentially built temper pedic.

1:31 from scratch. Uh it's just an amazing story. And for those of you who haven't heard it, we will put a link to it. uh in the show notes. It's this is a uh an episode from October of twenty eighteen. It is so good. It's like a movie, Bobby. Your life is like a movie.

1:46 Yeah, it is. It is. I'm still pinching myself. It's it's incredible. I mean, you eventually acquired a huge rival. Uh, which was Seeley, this is in twenty twelve, and then you stayed on as vice chairman of the board until I think just a a few years ago. Right. I went off uh in twenty twenty two. So I've been on for at that point, we started in ninety two, so that's thirty years.

2:07 That's enough. Yeah.'Cause what happened after I stepped down as uh CEO in two thousand six was crazier than what happened before. And so I was a r uh I was a around for all the All the ups and downs for that too. Yeah.

2:22 It's an amazing product and amazing business. Um Bobby, you have since you have kind of stepped away from from temperatic in in that world, um, you have really leaned into your faith. You you you publish a book About About the is it the scientific

2:39 Proof of God? The uh the book is called The Logic That God Exists. And and so when all this all this happened to me, uh I just was trying to find a uh a way to support my family and I ended up In this mattress thing. You know, CEO of a Uh public company on New York Stock Exchange. I said, Lord I said

2:59 You know, th when you give, you give gratuitously. And so my my goal now is just to give back for that. And I'm just in any way I can. And so uh the book uh kind of sprung out of notes I had taken over the years from various, you know, lectures and thoughts that I had and uh books I read. And what I observed in the culture out there is that there was a general weakening in the belief in God. And so

3:27 You know, as a Catholic, you know, I I I go to church and the priest is trying to get people to go to confession and go to this and go to that and the sacraments and all that. And I was realizing that We're trying to get people to go with step B and C in their faith. They're still stuck on step A. Yeah. Let's focus on that niche. And and r and uh research it and write a book. That explains how it it's impossible for there not to be a God. Yeah.

3:55 You know the for so long the the fastest growing quote unquote religion in America was n was no religion, right? And and or no belief and and there's some Anecdotal evidence, and I don't know how how m closely measured is that there is a little bit of a resurgence happening in the United States. uh around faith. And so we'll see if it's real. Or not, but it's it's interesting.

4:17 You know, these things happen b for for a variety of reasons. So um it sh it'll be interesting to see. Yeah. I was at a leadership conference last week or two weeks ago and we uh broke out into small groups and uh I had a bunch of uh uh gen the you know twenty three to twenty eight year olds And I asked them that question and I said, Do you see a like a revival in your in your uh age group? And they said, Definitely. I said, Well, why?

4:45 And um this one girl said twenty three year old, she said That um It's Because we have everything. at our fingertips with these phones and the technology. We can talk to anybody in the world. We can order anything we want. We have everything in the world

5:02 But we're not happy. Yeah. So they're seeking. And and I think that's that's explains it. Yeah, it's amazing. Um

5:10 Well let's start let's start on the show today. Let's see if we can give some advice to some early stage founders. Uh you ready to take some calls? I'll try. All right, yes. Let's do it. Let's bring in our first caller. Welcome to the advice line, you're on with the legendary Horse trainer, Bobby K Bobby Trust a lot. Temper Pedic. founder. Uh please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business. Yeah, hi, thank you so much for having me. This is such a pleasure to be on the show. Um Bobby, thank you so much for all your words and advice and guy. You're amazing. Um, my name is Leaf Gildersleeve. I'm calling in from Portland, Oregon. I'm a second generation fishmonger. And I own a business in Portland called Flying Fish Company, and we are a retail, fish market, and restaurant.

5:53 Awesome. Welcome to the show. And and so ha you come from a family of fishermen? I do. Well, uh from Fishmongers. Fishmonger. My family, yes. Uh so my family had a fish market uh in my hometown over in Idaho, um growing up as a kid. So my dad used to fly in fish from the coast from Seattle, uh fly it in inland where there wasn't good seafood. And so the name of the f uh company is Flying Fish Company. That's awesome. And how long have you have you run this business? So I've had my own branch of it since the recession in uh two thousand eight, two thousand nine. Um, and then I moved it so uh uh here in Portland it's been about fifteen years. Yeah. And so it's a it's a store where you it's a fishmonger. You go in, you get fresh fish, but it's a restaurant is attached to it.

6:35 Uh that's correct. Yeah. So I started my early years here in Portland, I started just I was just selling fish um first of all from farmers markets, uh and then I had a little truck uh where I would park on parking lot corners and sell fresh fish from the truck. that evolved into different phases, different locations. I uh in my early years I had a little shack on the corner of a produce tent and then I ended up in a high end grocery store where I was the fishmonger and the I had a meat market in there and a little cute little oyster bar. And then uh Well, almost six years ago now, right before the pandemic, I moved into my own standalone brick and mortar location, which was a full uh sit down um seafood restaurant along with the fish market. So it's kind of evolved over the years. That's awesome. Um and give us give us a sense of the of the split of here. I mean what what part of your business it's kind of Two businesses here, right? You've got the fish market and you've got the restaurant.

7:29 What what generates Mm more revenue. Well, you know, as as I said, in the early years it was all fish market, so a hundred percent of my re revenue was from the fish market. Uh I evolved that into I pr started producing smoked salmon for grocery stores and I was selling fish wholesale to restaurants. Uh and then uh you know, I had enough people that kept on asking me to cook the fish'cause it is um in some people's eyes challenging. Um so that's when I started doing more of the cooked seafood and and pivoting more into the restaurant component. Now the restaurant has pretty much taken over. Um it's over seventy five percent of the sales is the restaurant, whereas only twenty five percent is the fish market. Wow. Nice so okay. Tell us your question and then we will um dive in further.

8:10 Yeah, thank you so much. Um, Bobby, so similar to how you pivoted from mattress toppers to pillows and then started to see that part of the business grow, um, I've also pivoted, like I said, into different categories of the business. Um so You know, my question is, I I'm I'm interested in growing again. I've been running the business now, like I said, for about 15 years. So my question is is how do you really know when you're doing those pivots and you start to see some feedback, you're starting to get sales, um, how do you know when you've kind of landed on the one part of the business that you think that you should really put the most effort. into. Like I said, I kinda wanna grow right now, but I'm figuring out whether I want to do more locations here within the Portland area or maybe even franchise it so that I can branch and expand more nationally um to people that don't know about flying fish. How do you know when you've landed on that one part of the business? Yeah, that's a good question, Bobby, right? Because This is sometimes can can it's it can just b expand and and and

9:10 Send a business on a rocket ship or can I actually tank a business if you expand too quickly. Bobby um he's got a very successful restaurant. And a fish market? And it would make sense to start thinking about expanding, but when do you know? Yeah, I I mean m my gut r reaction would be to open up another l location or two

9:31 That's what restaurants do, right? Template. that works and they reproduce it in other locations, you know, often in the same city. But I I would think that um That would be the way to go. And the other thought would be as far as w how do you know which one's getting legs?

9:50 What we did is we threw uh mud at the wall to see what would stick. And um Generally speaking, if it's uh if it's a good one, it'll let you know early on. I remember uh when we tried things. Uh we got uh uh several chiropractors and we sent him these uh

10:09 overlays which were three inch mattresses and so We tried selling it at truck stops. Uh because we thought it go good in the back of the cabbers for for the semis. And That's

10:21 We can sell any. And but then we try the the uh pillow. And that When I took it to a chiropractor He said, Oh, this is interesting. By the way, we sell pills, we don't sell mattresses.

10:34 And I say well how would we um Distribute it. And you say, Well I could Find a way to have somebody show it to them. And I said, Well what if you mailed him one?

10:46 And they s he said, Well, it might work and then that's what we did. We mailed him, we mailed uh five hundred uh chiropractors and a hundred twenty five of'em Up our offer of uh of which are which was this pillow is yours free if you order four, so now we have So that was

11:04 example of the w it was like like a one of your fish. It hits the hook. And you go boom. Yeah. I got one here. And you feel it. Yeah, I I think okay, so I think I got some thoughts here, because Leaf it sounds like

11:19 You're sort of s trying to figure out, right, do I franchise this thing? Do I expand or build another restaurant and so He here's what what's interesting to me, right? If the restaurant is is is generating about seventy five percent of the revenue. Your customers are have already told you where the demand is, right? It's it's the restaurant. But I suspect

11:39 The reason why the restaurant is so successful is because of the trust and credibility of the market, right? Because they're going in there. They're seeing, oh, he's they've got direct sourcing and they're getting really fresh fish so they could see the fish in the market, and then they go to the restaurant. And they know what they're eating. And so I mean to me it it it seems like a fairly straightforward

12:02 path, right, which is I don't think you're ready to franchise now. I think you have to test first. Right, you've gotta figure out whether this is replicable first, which means If you can get the financing or

12:14 Open a second location. See if you can replicate the success of the first one with that model, with the market, with the restaurant. And then you start to then you start to evaluate, you know, you you need some data to figure that out because Franchising is a different business. Right now you are a restaurateur. A franchise operator, it's

12:33 It's documents, it's training, it's you know protecting your brand, it's scale it's supply chains, it's uh providing financing, it's a whole different type of business, which is an interesting business, but first you have to see whether you can actually have success with this model in another Location maybe in Portland, maybe somewhere else in in Oregon, maybe uh you know.

12:57 Well wherever. Uh and that will give you the data. Yeah, you know, one of the things that came up in my thought when when you were saying that is is I do agree with that, with um the scalability and make sure that it works. Um you know, one of the problems is staffing. Um you know I've got a great general manager and a chef and they really run the ship right now and and all my employees and we've found ways to do profit sharing and and health insurance and we do equal to share. So we've got an amazing dude that's hard. I know so many restaurants that have Not

13:26 made it because of that, right? That's hard. Yeah. It's great and they they do a great job'cause there's accountability there in that. So my fear is um when I go to do another location, you know, I don't have those same people. So I'm gonna have to build it again and and I'm a guy with a lot of energy and I've been there boots on the ground and done all this. Um, but it's also super complex because Leaf Gildersleeve is there doing eight trillion different things. What I have to do is I feel like I have to pull back and make sure that for that scalability that it's a real simple model. Cause right now it kind of gets more complex as I do all these different facets of the business because it's me involved. But when I scale it I've gotta s go backwards a little bit and make it simplified because seafood is pretty difficult just as it is.

14:11 Do you have a b like a Bible, like a a a a uh b that really out describes What you guys do, how to do everything like a a manual. You know, it's sort of. Sort of, kinda, but not really. Okay, certainly being worked on. That's great. That is the that's something that you should really lean into because if you want to train people, like people might be coming to sea leaf.

14:36 They might be coming to see you, right? But you can't scale yourself. But you also need people who are gonna care about. the quality and the standards like you do, but they need the you need a You need to codify it, not only in how to do things, but why you do it. D uh you guys had a brand Bible at I'm sure at at at Temper Pedic, Bobby? Yeah, uh it took us a while, but we but we did, yeah.

14:59 This is what we learn when spreading into other countries. We We had this uh mattress operation here. Uh but they made me CEO of the group, which included twenty six countries. So All of a sudden under my per view was uh you know, Spa and France and s and uh Japan. And what I learned

15:19 They're Is You're only as good is the guy you got. there. Yeah. If you have a good guy in Spain, Spain's gonna do great. If you have a marginal guy, Spain's not gonna do well. So if you can get comfortable with the guy and then yeah, have the handbook and have have the have the rules and what to do, but it's mainly getting that guy and make it worth his while.

15:40 Pay him whatever it takes. And'cause what you're trying to do is reproduce you. Um and uh I I think uh that's the best advice I could give. Yep. Awesome. Uh Leaf, thanks so much for calling in. Leaf.

15:55 Gildersleeve, you've got one of the best names in the fish business. Gildersleeve from the Flying Fish Company. Good luck, man. Thanks for calling in. Thank you very, very much. I appreciate you guys. Awesome, man. Thank you. Stay with us because after the break we'll talk to another founder working to take their business to the next level. That's after the break, I'm Guy Roz, and you're listening to the advice line right here on how I built this lab. Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Roz, and my guest today is Bobby Trussell, founder of Temper Pedic, and we are taking your calls today. Let's bring in our next caller. Welcome to the advice line. You're on with Bobby Trussell, founder of Temper Pedic. Welcome to the show. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.

16:52 Hi Guy, hi Bobby. Um my name's Colleen King. I'm based out of Steamboat Springs, Colorado. And my business is hollow gear. Um, so we manufacture specialty inflatable stand up paddle boards with a focus on river performance through unique and patented features. People use our boards um on a lot of different waterways, from flat water to their local river, all the way to pushing the upper limits of white water. All right, cool. Welcome to the show.

17:18 Colleen. This is so paddleboarding people know a lot of people know that you you go to the ocean, you got a big paddleboard and you paddle and but this is these are you make paddleboards for rivers? For like white water rivers. Yes. Yes, that's the thing. So it's a different kind of paddleboard. Yes, exactly. Yeah, we really focus on design that allows for performance on the river specifically. Um of course we have boards that can go in flatwaters and lakes, but our specialty is the river market.

17:44 Okay, so this is you stand on this thing. You're not you're not like like locked in, right? It's not like like a snowboard. You stand on it with a paddle and you go on a white water river and you Somehow managed to stay on it? Yes, that's correct. We even have some folks um primarily in Scotland that are dropping waterfalls, um not locked in, standing on the board. This is a niche product, okay? And I don't mean I mean that in the most respectful way. I love those p kinds of products and they can be c great businesses. How did you

18:14 Just get into this business. What's the story? So um I'm actually recently the owner. Um we switched ownership two years ago. I worked for the company for about six and a half years. And when you say company, was it a bunch of people? What was it? We had about twenty employees. Um and we owned Hala and then we also owned an online whitewater retail store called CKS Online. Okay. And you are now the owner? And I'm now the owner. How did that happen? Yeah, so after Covid there was kind of the boom and bust of the outdoor industry. We got put in a position where we had canceled orders, a bunch of financial strain, and I was able to put in an offer

18:53 to our founder, who's still very involved. He's our lead designer, amongst many other hats he wears. Um and Yeah, took over the business last May. Alright, so you sell these boards and I'm assuming mainly online or do you sell them in shops? We started out in twenty eleven, uh primarily B to B And now we're about eighty five percent.

19:15 Direct to consumer online. And then fifteen percent to shops. And what do you expect, give me a sense of what you expect to to do this year in sales. We're forecasted to finish at about eight hundred and fifty thousand. Eight hundred and fifty thousand this year. Mm-hmm. Wow, that's great.

19:31 Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah, um second year in a row of being profitable. That's great. And before we dive in further, what's your question for us? Yeah, so my question is After switching ownership and clarifying our identity as Premium River SUP, how do we grow our revenue from here? Do we invest in increasing participation and education around the sport? Do we focus on expanding our presence in specialty shops and river communities? Or do we work to develop adjacent product lines?

19:59 For core river paddleers. Got it. Okay, SUP stand up paddleboarding. Correct. Right. Okay. I just want to clarify that. Okay. I don't always agree with acronyms. Okay. Yes. Let me bring in Bobby Trussell. Bobby, um, you started with a very obscure, weird product that people were like, What is this? This is a of course a niche sports product. First of all thoughts, questions, answers for Colleen.

20:22 question I guess is is this a um a market that you created or is is it uh established market that you're a small part of. Yeah, excellent question. Um, we were the first company to design a board specifically for Whitewater. So from the beginning we've been pioneering the sport. And now there's some competition in the space, but we still are the go to.

20:46 River paddle board company. Well I can just tell you from my experience, um We were at a kind of a crossroads, uh we're about ten years in and um We did some research from Bain

21:01 Capital. And um We had been branching out. into Chairs.

21:08 'Cause the material was so cool we thought uh my Swedish partners thought that oh well they didn't think of us as a mattress company. They thought of us as a uh innovation company. Where we have this wonderful material, yeah, we can put it in a mattress, we can put it in chairs, we can put it in insoles in your shoes. We can put it in hospitals and nurse homes and wheelchair cushions and All this stuff. And so we were kinda going Every witch away. And these guys At Bain Capitol. And I was really

21:35 kind of against this. Are you kidding me? We're gonna spend two hundred grand to get an opinion about our business. Well they called Five hundred Of our stores that we were in and

21:48 When they got done, they knew more about us than than we did and they came back and they said You are a very small part of a very big niche. At the time we were We were positioned the mattress as kinda the like if you need if you have if you have back pain, you need this. You need temperedic. And so They said

22:06 you should not be branching out into all these other places'cause and you don't want to take your eye off the ball, off your core business, especially if you are have a niche that there's still competition. I mean we were a revolutionary w point of difference compared to the the kind of the the old Inner Spring uh industry. I mean that's th for a hundred years it had been just inner springs. We come out with this fancy foam thing that had actual tangible and uh measurable benefits and they say you need to stop doing all this focus on them and you say you are a mattress company. And that

22:46 Changed everything. And I went back to the Swedes, my Swedish partners and I said, Well That's what they said I I agree. And so we got rid of all that other stuff. And so That's one thing

22:58 Took off. When we focus on our core business. And the fact that competition comes in That can be a positive thing because what you want is your niche to get bigger. Right.

23:13 uh fish in the pond. So what what happened with us is uh people uh copied us or tried to, but they didn't do it as well. But it made the niche more acceptable. Which we dominated.

23:26 I I totally agree. I I think that that right now uh it sounds like you are the brand, right, in in River stand up pedalboards. Paddleboarding. And and so You really want to lean into that. That role.

23:39 Right, and and even though this is kind of a niche sport, right? And paddleboarding is bigger, but but river paddleboarding in particular his niche it still has a sounds like a a really c committed Yeah, fan base.

23:53 So you want make your brand aspirational, right? Like almost like how Patagonia really began with like Rock climbers. Right, if that that and that was a niche sport back in the day, right? And and you really want

24:08 to to double down on this idea that your customers are part of a culture. Like when I look at and and you may be doing that, I don't know when I look at your website, it's it's clear, you've got, you know, you've got your shop and everything. But I I think that there's an opportunity to really lean into the people who are using your products. And to see if you can start to generate you know, photos, videos, content that really builds builds a community, right? Because this is this is a group of people who are

24:38 I mean, how many people do you meet who are like I I stand up paddleboarding rivers and in and you know, whitewater. So I I mean that's a community of people that you really want to cultivate and own. Right. Yeah, yeah, I think that's good advice. Um We definitely struggle to have people visualize themselves doing this because it seems

24:58 There's there's a barrier to entry in a bit. Um but Once people try it they feel that sense of community, they understand what we're all about. They understand the adventure and the connection to themselves and the environment and Other people in an expedition way.

25:14 Um you know, we're pretty limited in resources. We're we're very small, so it's hard for us to know Do we invest that in going to shows and River events or Um, once someone buys one of our fourteen hundred dollar boards, we have our our customer retention rate has increased by um

25:32 Sixty percent. So we have a loyal following. It's We just have such limited funding to know which way. To focus our attention. On the river community.

25:44 Ads. Yeah, I was just gonna say We were in a similar situation early on selling through chiropractors and we went to all the shows and everything. It was really a w uh a waste of money. You know, we go to a show and we spend five grand or something and we get you know

26:01 ten chiropractors. It just wasn't cost efficient. And so my advice is advertise. What Guy just said. Advertise, advertise, advertise. Okay. Yeah, we only spent about

26:13 ten thousand dollars on advertising last year. Um We were a bit inventory constrained, so I think I think That's great advice, thank you. A rule of thumb is ten percent of sales.

26:24 Okay. So you she should be spending eighty. Yeah. It's hard. I'm sure it sounds hard, but but he's right. That's right. It's a rule of thumb. All right. Colleen, uh the brand is called Hala Gear Stand Up Paddleboards. Thanks for calling in. Good luck. Great. Thank you so much. I really appreciate your time and advice. Thanks, Colin. Good to meet you.

26:40 You too. Yeah, I mean have you ever done stand up paddleboarding, like on a on the in the ocean? No, my wife has. But I'm six six and my center of gravity does not uh not have that. Yes. Yeah, right.

26:55 I can imagine that. Yeah. Right. But it's great it's great exercise, actually. It's really terrific exercise. Yeah, I see them out there all the time. Yeah, it's great. Great for your shoulders. Awesome. So this just I I think it's amazing to imagine somebody sta uh you know, in flat water in in the ocean, I'm barely you know, able to stay on top of it. But man. Doing this in like white water. That's that's intense. Yeah, that takes some skill, I would think. Yeah.

27:20 Alright, we're gonna take another quick break, but we'll be right back with another collar. Stay with us, I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to the advice line right here on how I built this lab. Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Roz, and I'm taking your calls with Bobby Trussel. Founder of Temper Pedic. All right, let's bring in our next caller. Welcome to the advice line. You're on with Bobby Trussell. Welcome. Tell us your name, what you're uh where you're calling from and just a little bit about your business.

28:00 Hi, I'm Amanda Haran, co-founder and CEO of Line and Cleet, the only women owned US Coast Guard approved life jacket brand in the US. Based just outside of Chicago, we're redefining how modern families experience safety on the water. Awesome. Well thanks for calling him, Manda. So this is a Life. Jack it. Yes. Is that right? And and tell me what what is it? What do you guys do? Right. And probably not

28:30 Attractive, right? Yeah. I mean I just put her on, right? And and and uh so what w tell me about what you're doing here. Absolutely. So um my husband and I, he's my other Co-founder. Um, we started the business, launched the collection in 2023. And so we design with um elevation and like an elevated lifestyle in mind. Um, and so we are bringing subtle colorways to the life jacket game. The industry's been stagnant for decades. Um, just like you said, a utilitarian. kind of not so attractive life jacket is the first thing that people think of when they think of life jackets. And um it dawned on us that this is a huge blind spot in this industry and in this market. Um and so when we launched the collection, we really wanted to speak to those leisure boaters and water enthusiasts that are not looking to go Jet skiing and not looking for that like intense water sport, but really looking to carry on those family traditions and just enjoy time together.

29:28 Out on the water. And these are life jackets for kids. We started with our kids collections. Um so that was our first launch. So zero through ninety pounds infant, child, and youth. Uh but we are launching universal adult sizing uh for spring twenty twenty six. Got it. Okay, and how did you get into life j I mean, is this did you come from a Family of people going on boats. My husband did. Yeah. So my husband grew up on the Mississippi River in Iowa and um his father passed down all of, you know, his boating traditions to my husband. And so when we got married, you know, we started boating

30:02 And We have two daughters and so when we started taking them out, it really dawned on me as a parent that there isn't much choice as as much as you think you have all these brands to choose from, a lot of them read very one note. And if you look deeper into the industry, a lot of them are under only five larger umbrella companies um And I didn't love the way they looked. I felt like it was kind of an eyesore in this the middle of this beautiful family moment. And uh we saw that there was an opportunity here and very quickly after launching the first collection we had rapid sales and it's been growing. I um

30:38 feel lucky to say, you know, very quickly since then. And you're selling. direct to consumer through your website. Yes, ninety percent direct to consumer. We'd love to push wholesale too. All right, let's ch dive in. What's your question for us? So my question is we recently opened our pre seed round uh to bring on strategic partners and raise capital to meet the growing customer demand, but we're not from the traditional startup world. So I'd love some advice around breaking through that cold email phase and getting in front of VCs and angel investors with not having those established relationships. So any advice around that. How much are you looking to raise, by the way? Uh our pre seed right now is four hundred. We've secured fifty. Um it's all a safe note with a two million dollar cap.

31:19 Yeah. Okay. I have a lot of thoughts for you. Uh I want to bring in Bobby. Uh questions for Amanda before we dive into her question. Um I guess on the product itself, is is there a functional part of it that's a point of difference or is it just the Designs.

31:35 Great question. So most of life jackets out there are made with a very tough rip stop nylon that's a little bit uncomfortable. We use a softer neoprene fabric that wears more like a swimsuit. And even on our nylon option, it's a much lighter weight nylon. So kids are less cranky when they're out there uh for a long time out on the water with their family. And how how big is the market? Um, so it's a 1.3 billion dollar market, and then we're hoping to move into boating accessories, which is even larger at sixteen billion. Yeah. Well that's important because uh so many people are used to looking at the downside of a of a business and fail to look at the upside.

32:14 Mm-hmm. So where how big can it be if it works? Uh not how much can I uh lose if it goes goes wrong. And so uh it's important to have uh a Upside. in the market, uh i in a niche th that you're in, and apparently you you have that. Yeah, I I hope so. I I believe so. Amanda, let me let me ask you a question. Yeah.

32:37 What do you what do you wanna do with the cash that you raise? So the majority of it is gonna go to scaling inventory. Um, because we do have right now we have a waiting list, for example, for some of our best sellers. We get a lot of inquiries around wholesale accounts and we wanna push to like luxury hotels and uh different avenues. But we are constrained on our inventory because we've been bootstrapped this entire time. So um it's really time for us to scale it. We this would open up more collaborations for us. We've had a lot of interest around there. Um, but as the brand, we wanna be able to support that, you know, product. Um And so that's the majority, and then also making sure that once we get the inventory, we have the proper marketing to push it out to the proper channels to move that inventory through. So it sounds like I mean, can you do Part of this without Uh without raising capital?

33:28 We we can, it's tight. We did uh recently create a partnership for some inventory financing that's a little bit more unique, not your traditional bank financing, which has been a blessing. Um, but we've put everything we personally can into it. Um and so we're also really looking from a strategy standpoint. to, you know, maybe work with someone that has done outdoor products or children products or, you know Things that can kind of help us take this to the next level. And the feedback that we've gotten from VCs is we absolutely love what you're doing. Call us when you're bigger. You know, we we love we see potential here. We want you to hit that million dollar. So we've done about a quarter of a million so far. Um

34:10 But I know we can hit it if we have the inventory. it it's I'm I'm gonna so I'm gonna give you my take on this and I and it's based on you know the people we talked to and the interviews we've done. having a quarter million sales is hard to raise venture money. It's just hard. Especially in a consumer product. It's really where you want to go to Anyone you know, right? And so you your question was like how do we raise money when we don't have the connection to the context? And the reality is

34:35 It's not about connections and contacts. It's about what the data shows, what you can prove. Because investors don't make investments because they l they know they met somebody they make investments because they think they're gonna make money back. Right. And and and they need that. um uh assurance. And so it se it and so I wonder whether I mean you said you're in you're outside of Chicago, right? Yeah. Um and you said you've raised about fifty thousand. Correct. Right so far.

35:00 And so I I think that in order to attract You know significant capital they're gonna want to see data. For example You know If you were to get a distribution partner.

35:13 uh that you know where you're I don't know, like if there is there like a national chain of marinas or Or or or a uh you know I don't know, yacht clubs chain I mean something that shows that you can actually scale. Right, right. No, that's a great point. And we have just partnered with a national ecom distributor, so I think that that will really push and I have a pitch next week, so I'm gonna include that in my pitch deck. Um, and then there's, you know, a prospect from uh the marina side that I'm hoping comes to fruition in twenty twenty six, but I think that's a great point to really drive that point home of the future.

35:48 Bobby, how did you guys uh finance the the first runs of of the mattresses? We um We raised about five hundred thousand dollars the first year nineteen ninety two. And we're in the same uh boat. We had very little sales at that point. But we had a good story and we thought

36:08 Thought that we um Could Show people that there could be a uh high degree o of uh of a big success. But who gave you that money, Bobby? Was it was it uh professional investors or was it people that you just kind of New friends of a friends of a friend. Friends and friends of a friend, my college roommate, my mom gave fifty, my dad gave fifty, and m the famous story about my uncle Bill, who gave me fifty thousand and I listened to that on the podcast. I lost the check at a Burger King

36:38 But he sent you another one, right? He's never overnight of me and he had just lost a bunch of money with me in the horse business. That's right. I thought, man, he's never gonna be. And but he did and I told the story that uh that fifty thousand ended up paying for the college of all twenty eight of his grandkids. So it was a happy story. Um We did uh here's what we did. We didn't want to give up equity, right? Mm-hmm. But we we're we're okay with giving up some, so we gave for if you give me fifty thousand

37:09 I you get uh was it whether one or two percent equity in the company and a four to one payback On your money. So you give me fifty, I'll give you two hundred plus uh one percent or two percent, whatever it was. So we raised money on those terms. That's what that was Uncle Bill's terms. Um and uh that worked because we we gave up a small part of the company, you know, uh ten percent or something. Um So equity is your currency. And and you don't want to give it all up, but you gotta be prepared to give some of it up. And when we hit forty five percent, where they own forty five percent of our company now. Right. And I'm going, Man, this is going the wrong way, but then we stopped.

37:51 And it and it works. So and and they said years later they told me that if uh If they had gone over fifty, they would have felt like they had to run it. They didn't want to go over fifty either, so it all worked out. Yeah, they don't want to take it on. No, that's good. Yeah. I I think that you wanna start and you probably are doing this, but but you may have to double down on it. It's It's it's Friends of a friends of a friend ask any conversation you have. And I I I remember getting this vice. thirty years ago when I started as a journalist, I said

38:20 I was trying to figure out how to break into this business and people said, Hey Uh uh call this person, but don't let the but when make sure you walk out of that with another number. Or with another person to contact. It's very simple advice and and it works. Yeah. So you're gonna have to unconcurrently run this business, try to sell them, but also make the pitch to people. Right. Uh that you know because those are the ones who are gonna get this initial round, you're I think it's gonna be harder to get it from professional investors, VCs.

38:49 They're gonna wanna see the data, they're gonna wanna see some some uh traction. Sure. No, absolutely. I think that's a I have to find my Uncle Bill. I gotta find Uncle Bill. I gotta find Uncle Bill. I thank you. Do I Three year pro forma.

39:05 Uh projection. Yeah, I know you're pulling numbers out of thin air, but it's really important and people like to see it that okay, here's what the company's worth now, X, it can be worth five X or ten X. We have that now. We've been consistently, you know, two and a half year over year since just launching in a short amount of time. So but I I see what you're saying. Like really paint the picture for them. Um so that way they can see it. Show them the pot at the end of the rainbow. Right. Then why do it for them? Exactly. Yeah, there's a pot. I believe I have faith there's a pot. Yeah. Good. Amanda, thank you so much for calling in. The brand's called Line and Cleat. Good luck. Thank you. Very nice to meet you. All right. Nice to meet you. About.

39:47 Uh yeah, I I mean I just What I love is is when you take a category that's just boring or you just you no one really thinks about it, you know, and And you you reimagine it, right? You you sort of You say, Well, why does everybody accept that life jackets are are orange with with with reflective tape on it and Let's make them a little more interesting.

40:06 Yeah. Yeah. Um, Bobby, before I let you go, um and it's been great having you on as w as usual. You're just so great. Um If you could go back to you know, to where you were when you were really in dire straits and and not just trying to figure out what you know, when you were starting out this thing, this

40:25 And you could give yourself advice now that you now know. What would have been helpful for you to know back then? Um Yeah, because we we didn't know anything. About

40:39 our business. We didn't know anything about mattresses. And so but it turned out to be that that was a good thing. So uh you know, we did everything the opposite. of how our competition was doing it. We had one size, everyone else had like fifteen. We had uh one price, everyone else had a bunch of different prices we

40:58 We never discounted everybody else discounted. Uh we advertise nationally and everybody else advertised locally, which turned out to be a huge And advantage. National ads are

41:11 much cheaper per capita than local ads. And so I mean That was something that would have been nice if they had Told me that, but um And the other thing is

41:22 Do we have some internal. questions in the in the company of how big we wanted to be. Uh that was one of her big breakthroughs. They were major retailer.

41:34 And we were became their number one product. And we were starting to m to really coin it. And So the question is Do you wanna be a niche?

41:44 Play. Or do you wanna Be big. And my instincts were We gotta think big.

41:51 And uh That's w also what uh was a huge part of our success was just that That mentality that we got something no one else has. And um But we wanna exploit that advantage.

42:06 Bobby Trussell, founder of Temper Pic. By the way, if you haven't heard Bobby's original episode, the Type Pedic story, uh, go back and check it out. It's incredible. It's such a fun story, it's amazing. Uh and here's one of my favorite moments from that episode. How did you raise the money? to start this venture at all.

42:24 Well that's a really good question. Because I had to go back to all my basic same people who had invested with me in my other Uh horse ventures. Yeah.

42:38 That had failed and gone broke. So I had to convince them that even though we lost money in something that I knew a lot about. that we were gonna make money in something that I knew nothing about. Ha ha ha. Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. And by the way, please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free at guyroz.com or on Substack.

42:59 And of course, if you are working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one-minute message that tells us a little bit about your business and the questions or issues that you're currently facing, because we would love to try and help you solve them. You can send us a voice memo at hibt at id.wondery.com. Or call us at 1800-433-4500. Leave a message there and make sure to tell us how to reach you, and we'll put all of this information in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Chris Massini with music composed by Ramptine Arablui. It was edited by Andrea Bruce. Our audio engineer was Cina Lafredo. Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Kather Seifer, Casey Herman, JC Howard, Carrie Thomson, Ramel Wood, Sam Paulson, Niva Grant, and Elaine Coates.

43:50 I'm Guy Roz, and you've been listening to how I built this.

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