How to Find Wisdom in the Things You’re Struggling With | Pádraig Ó Tuama

0:00 So force yourself into the lessons that only time can tell can be difficult. If somebody has a chronic illness and they've had it for five years, that can be difficult for people around them to know how to speak. But there's something about meeting somebody else who's been through that too, where time has done the work in both of them. Welcome to the one you feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like Garbage In, Garbage Out, or You Are What You Think ring true. And yet, for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us.

0:39 We tend toward negativity, self-pity. Jealousy or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking.

0:52 Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction. How they feed their good wolf. I got sober in rooms that run on stories about getting better. Someone said they'd been where I was and then they made it out and that gave me hope.

1:16 Padre Gotuma sees the power in these stories, and he also sees the people they leave out. When someone says Jesus fed me when I was hungry, the people who are still hungry feel bereft. Every group rewards certain stories and ignores others. And Padre thinks the braver groups are the ones that make room for criticism. We also get into the hungers underneath the two wolves. And we share a poem about being lost in the woods that I've loved for years. I'm Eric Zimmer and this is the one you feed. Hi Podrig, welcome to the show.

1:48 Hi, Eric. Nice to be with you. I'm really happy to have you on. I've wanted to have this conversation for several years now since I saw you at the On Bean Gathering, so I'm glad that we're finally able to do it. We're going to be discussing a number of your different books, one of which will be Poetry Unbound, Fifty Poems to Open Your World. And I know you also have a new work of poetry called Feed the Beast also, and we'll have links in the show notes to all that. But we'll start like we always do with the parable. In the parable there's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say in life

2:20 There are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. What is it, good wolf? Which represents things like kindness and bravery and love. And the other's a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and Hatred and fear?

2:34 And the grandchild stops and they think about it. For a second, they look up at their grandparent and they say, Well Well which one wins? And the grandparent says The one you feed.

2:44 So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do. Mm. I've been thinking about this a little bit, Eric, in preparation. I suppose I'm interested in the hungers of both of the wolves. You know, you said greed and hatred and fear.

3:00 with the bad wolf and I think hatred and fear are manifestations of some deeper hungers. So Yeah, and whenever I hear that parable and I've heard it before I've always wanted to go a bit deeper in in the in the hungers of both wolves. And to recognize that maybe there's three wolves or five, or yes. But maybe the hungers of

3:21 Some of the wolf that is deemed the bad one have intelligences underneath them. Maybe they're directed in a poor way, but there's something to be learned. From both, I suppose. Yeah. That's right, go. Well, I agree with you. I don't think there's two wolves inside of us. I think I've you know, I could probably count thirty without even trying very hard inside me. Say a little bit more about that. You've done a lot of work in conflict resolution over the years. So you have encountered people who hate each other. Yeah, right. They come in hating each other. Talk to me a little bit more about the hunger underneath that. What have you learned is the hunger that's sort of fueling that or or what are some of the hungers? I'm I'm curious. Yeah. Well, in any situation where there's people who are representatives of groups that are being brought together where there's longstanding hate

4:06 Um predictable hate. occurring There's many things, there's many layers going on, you know, maybe there's deep grief. And fear about the future, fear for safety, those things can go on. But there can also be a profound sense of group belonging, you know, I know that if I demonstrate my hate for this other group

4:23 There's another group that will say to me, Hey, you really belong to us'cause you perform your hate very well. And so hate can be an initiation in that way. And so underneath the practice of hate in that way there can be grief and shock and and worry as well as a certain intelligence of how it is that we

4:42 make certain sacrifices in order to belong to a group. There can be fear as well, in the sense of it can be easier to stick with the performance of a hate that you know than risk the possibility of opening yourself up to learning something about the other that might shock you. A about them and then B about yourself. inside a room sometimes I think that you know when it comes to People who have had a longstanding hates towards each other in groups. I suppose occasionally it's possible that

5:09 two groups can have equal but opposite power. And usually there's disproportionate power on one side. And then usually there's an argument about what the disproportionate power is and who has it. often a group with power doesn't want to acknowledge that they have power because then With power comes accountability, you would hope.

5:26 And so those things too are present in a room. So there can be a hunger to acknowledge some of the journey of learning that you've come on because that might mean that therefore you'd be open to some more accountability. So all of those things can be present in a room. Yeah. Yeah. We all know this though. You don't just need to be a conflict mediator To know it, you know this because of your friends or your family or because of where you vote or or maybe you don't vote, but you know, w in the environments where polarization happens, there's always a a lot of dynamics and you can feel them.

5:58 Very clearly. You can if you're looking to feel them, but many people aren't, right? They're happily Polarized, you know, they're content in that space. I think there also probably has to be a big element of deep resentment over what's happened in the past, right? There's been a lot of harm done, or perceived harm anyway. Yeah, harm or perceived harm. But I think even groups of people who are very happy in certain performances of polarization You have a group of friends or a family or

6:26 you know, mostly people have circumstances in their life where they do have to live with subtlety. Even those who say they don't. there is some relationship in their life where they are having to think Well no, I need to think about this in four or five levels. And so

6:42 Partly I think that is a great um resource for mediation is to say what are the relationships in your life that that you have to think about. They're important to you, but you have to work at it. have to think what are the skills you use there very, very naturally. And what would it be like to think about using those in this room? And what's the risk of using those skills in this room? And somebody would go, Yeah, I I love the person we're talking about in terms of my family

7:04 person in my family annoys me, but people here might hurt me. You know, so And and then suddenly you're talking about something very interesting in terms of the multiple skills that all of us have. Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So in your book in the shelter you throughout the book are saying hello to lots of different things, right? You say

7:26 Hello to the lists and the day and the tiredness and the coffee and the coffee. Hello to the happy accident of the changing story. Hello to the fear of fear. Hello to here. Hello to the storm. It goes on and on. I could do a hundred and fifty of them. There's a lot of'em. What are you saying hello to today? Mm-hmm. I'm saying hello to uh Covid booster. Me feeling like I have Covid. Okay. And saying hello to a year that has had uh grief in it. And um trying to Trying to pay attention to the ways that grief works.

7:59 I am saying hello to Deadlines? Mm. Um I'm saying hello also to the need. For

8:08 Asking for help. Those are some of the things. Also saying hello to a world in war. Saying hello to a world that There's war about what the war is about. Um

8:18 Yeah. Yeah. Yep, those are all things to say hello to. You just talked about grief there, and grief is something I've been dealing with some of also. And Somewhere you quote the Irish poet Patrick Kavanaugh And

8:34 You say that he recommends that you live at the heart of the emotion. Time has its own work. to do. And you know, one of the things that I've been reflecting on as I go through a difficult time is living at the heart of that emotion, like really giving ourselves to it, what the work is that time is going to do on us isn't obvious at that point. You know, I often refer to sort of, you know, there's that saying when one door closes, another door opens, right? But I often

9:01 think we don't talk about the dark hallway in between, right? One door closes and the other isn't open yet. And you've got a period of walking in the dark and having the faith that this is doing something in me and for me, but you don't see it. Yeah. I think about that line from Patri Kavanaugh every day. I actually have it on the mug that I'm drinking tea from at the moment. Okay. I I got it printed on there and but that's only recently. I've been thinking about that line for a long time. You know one way of reading it. The line is from a poem of his called Having Confessed. And it's instructions to somebody who has just been to confession.

9:36 Catholic confession, you know. And he's in a certain sense saying What would you know about the state of your soul? you know, confession, the idea is to say, here's what I did wrong. And Patrick Cabin is taking confession very seriously, but also taking Truth very seriously.

9:52 in a psychoanalytical sense, the the sense of how difficult it can be to know what we're talking about. So the poem starts off by saying having confessed, he feels like he should go down on his knees and beg for forgiveness for having dared to view his soul from the outside. lie at the heart of the emotion, time has its own work to do. Hm. And so

10:12 I think what the poem is is an invitation to to notice, to pay attention. I don't take it that it's an invitation to wallow. I don't think that's a wise thing to do. Um I think it's helpful to to notice And also to find something to keep you busy enough. And also, I know for me, certainly in the last year and has been a year of difficulty

10:31 there has been a way in which it's been a necessity to regularly remind myself of the world that I live in, a world where I'm going through something difficult. But like that's just one. There are wars, there's hunger, there's climate change, and to to not think about what I'm doing with my money or to

10:48 to think about how I'm keeping it aware of those things, not to overwhelm me or not to minimize uh what I'm going through either. but simply to just think, Well here's the world that I'm in and to lie at the heart of the emotion of that. And lying at the heart of it. I I love that line, but again I don't see it as wallow. I I think of it as notice. Yeah, yeah, I think that's so interesting. It's such a nuanced line. between

11:12 wallowing in an emotion and being open to it between, you know, looking at things outside of us to give us perspective versus minimizing you know, using that to minimize what we're going through. These things are very nuanced, you know. Yeah, yeah. In your word there, which is to notice and pay attention, I think is the key, like is to keep checking in. Like where okay. Where am I here? You know, oh boy, been pretty self involved the last couple of days, like completely self involved. Okay. T. turn the direction outward. Yeah. Oh, I've been going, going, going for a couple of days and having, you know, like it just keeps shoving the hard thing aside to keep moving. Well maybe it's time to pause and allow that hard thing a little bit of time, you know, kinda in my heart. And so it's all very nuanced. Yeah.

11:57 And your question too was about time, you know, that line time is its own work to do. You know, there's there's jokes about is there an app for that? About anything. And I don't think there's anything new in wanting quick solutions. Mm. But there's something very old in saying quick solutions don't last necessarily. And so time is its own work to do.

12:15 There are certain things that I'll only recognize and come to terms with When I am the age that somebody else was when they went through it. So I'm forty eight now, but when I turn thirty two I began to think about my dad in a particular way,'cause he was thirty two when I was born. And I find myself thinking, you know, when you're younger and you have these expectations about how how sort of parents should be.

12:38 And then when I started to get to the age that my parents were when I was born or when I was ten or twenty. Something changed in me where I thought, God I'm mighty sure I don't know what I'm doing. What kind of a parent would I have been to the twenty year old me? A bewildered one, I'm sure. That's not working your time as its own work to do. which is that to force yourself into the lessons that only time can tell.

13:02 Can be difficult. If somebody has a chronic illness and they've had it for five years, that can be difficult for people around them to know how to speak. But there's something about meeting somebody else who's been through that too, where time has done the work in both of them. Not that necessarily their circumstances are in any way similar. But there has been a work of time in them. Just something like that.

13:21 you can always recognize when you're around somebody who has a wisdom of time in them Where they uh their anxiety isn't pressuring you into rushing through something that you haven't been put through yet. Exactly. Makes me think of that Rokaline, have patience with everything that remains Unresolved in your heart, you know. Yeah.

13:41 Yeah. Another thing that you do is that if somebody asks you If you believe in God, you answer with a story that from your day. I think I understand that correctly. So I can't resist you believe in God. I went to a pub last night with a friend and it's a pub that used to be an Irish bar in New York that I used to go to fairly regularly before when I lived really nearby.

14:07 And so the woman, Joanne Who is the main bartender? recognize me when I went in. It's been over years since I've been in there. So you know, I remind her of my name just'cause I'm sure she's loads of people she recognises. But I just noticed the skill with which she was warm, and

14:25 But wasn't asking too much. The ease and the welcome. Which is why. You know running a good business. But also the way within which

14:33 I think she has practiced the art. of deep familiarity. without in any way asking people to explain themselves. I was really struck by the almost therapeutic level of levity and familiarity.

14:50 that she holds in her ways of responding to people. And I'm assuming that It isn't just me who notices that in her. But many other people too. Molly's on third Avenue at twenty third. That's the place to go if you're in New York. If you need to figure out whether you believe in God, head to Molly's.

15:09 I love the way you you respond to that question in that way. I'm sure it would leave many people unsatisfied with that answer, but I love that that's the answer nonetheless. It is the answer today, yeah. Yeah. Do you believe in God is a question that is That's about Asking our minds to do something that I suppose I'd like to say I I find it difficult from my mind to do, which is to imagine something outside of what we understand existence to be. It is to go into the

15:37 Mysteries of the universe and to ask what the emotion of an atom is. It is to ask what the design or the intelligence of a quark is. What do I know about any of that? And when it comes to theology, I've spent many years studying theology, so It isn't that I'm just

15:54 meandering around vaguely. I've thought a lot about it and and the more I've thought about it, the more I have become convinced that It is the material reality of life that in terms of what am I doing to help others stay alive? What am I doing to stay alive? What are we doing for the planet? What am I doing to notice the world that I'm in?

16:14 That this is my response to the question of God. I like the question of God, not because I believe in God but because I like the attention it asks me to pay to meaning to matter. to vast uncertitude.

16:29 So therefore I always want to answer the question of Do you believe in God with the story of the day? Or the story of the night before, in case there isn't a story of today. My primary spiritual practice for a number of years has been Zen Buddhism and You know, we do ko ons in Zen, right? And you know, do you believe in God is essentially a ko on to me, right? Like you said, there isn't an answer answer. Right. And in a Zen Coan, there isn't an answer answer. There's a mystery underneath the answer, or there's a realness or a immediacy underneath whatever the answer might be. It a lot of the Zen Koans are about

17:04 Inhabiting a different place than you normally do. And so, you know, I think do you believe in God, you've turned it into a a a personal co on in that way, which is a really beautiful thing. Mm. Christa Tippett has this great thing when she's has been facilitating conversations about something that might be divisive. Where

17:23 She might have had. Four people as part of an interview and two of them have one particular approach to a public issue. And two have a different one.

17:31 And she'll say, before we talk about what you're doing and you know, we're not frightened to the screen. But before we talk about what we're doing Let's take this public issue and tell me what's around it for you. Tell me what it all comes up. And so

17:45 Within the context of that Therefore people begin to speak about their own story, they begin to speak about a big change that happened in their life, something that has been a central meaning in their life. And that isn't to say, Oh, we'll all arrive at a nice neutral middle of the fence, middle of the road fence dwelling opportunity. No, in a certain sense what it does is it is it sharpens their disagreement. Because there has been the possibility of understanding

18:09 When you say this, actually you're also saying many other things. So what gathers around me in the question of God? And question of belief in God. is growing up Irish and Catholic. I was born in nineteen seventy five. And is growing up Irish and Catholic and gay.

18:25 And the secrecy that religion and Irishness brought along with that. It has been living a life that since I was eleven or twelve has been very heavily influenced. by evangelicalism, British and American evangelicalism. I've never been an evangelical.

18:41 But I have been around a lot of evangelicals for twenty years, from I'd say the age of twelve to thirty two. That tanged word's like Christian for me. I don't like that word because Mostly. what that meant for the people who was asking me was I one was have you stopped being Catholic yet?

18:58 Um they might be happy to hear that I have. Or gay. So yeah, have you stopped being Catholic or gay. And yes to one, no to the other. Not that I've stopped in Catholic, Catholicism is in my DNA. If you cut me I bleed the rosary. My God. But it's also family. It's also history when it when it comes to the question of God, when you look at the question of Irishness and God.

19:18 And Irishness and religion. It is years and years and years of study, three degrees in theology. All of those things are are around there for me and it's disappointment with religion as well as having had the most beautiful experiences sometimes when going on a retreat to a monastery. Or still putting on choral music when I need some quiet music to accompany me, or Yeah, so it's all of those things. It's going every year to handle his messiah if I can.

19:42 All of those things are all gathered round the question. of that. I don't have children, but it is the recognition that I think were I to have had children I would have wanted to have brought them up in a religion. Because I think it's really good to have a story against which to make your own decisions. um to have the conversation within the particularity of a tradition in order to be able to say, actually I reject that tradition because

20:06 what work that tradition has done to give you the because. and I am a better person for having been so religion infused along with all the pain that that brought. I am a much better person for having had that. And having had the language and the literature of the struggle

20:21 In order to figure out what I think. I've worked with a lot of people over the years who had a business idea that they sat on. And when they explain what stopped them It's often the plumbing. They don't know how to set up a storefront. They don't know how to do payments, how to do the checkout.

20:53 all the setup between wanting to sell something and actually selling it. Shopify is the answer to those questions. One of their best features is the checkout process, because when somebody is ready to buy, you don't want friction getting in the way. Shopify Checkout helps customers complete their purchase and when they return their details are already saved. One tap and they're done. The little Of a sale is nice, but what's even better is the feeling that your idea has become something real.

21:25 If you've been sitting on an idea. You can start at Shopify.com slash feed. With Shopify, nothing stands between your idea and a real business, so go make it one. Start your free trial at Shopify dot com slash feed. One last time that's shopify.com slash feed.

21:46 Die Karre ist weg. Natürlich ist die Karre weg. Du hast auf dem behinderten Packplatz geparkt. Nach einem Juwelenraum. Was ist jetzt der Plan? Verstecken sich Alex und sein Vater bei einer Gruppe junger Erwachsener mit Beeinträchtigungen, die gerade in den Urlaub aufbrechen. Yeah. Dort finden Sie mehr als nur ein Versteck und erleben den Sommer Ihres Lebens. Du bist ein geiler Typ! Du bist auch ein geiler Typ. Das gewisse Etwas. Die Vielgött Komödie des Jahres. Ab dem 3. September nur im Kino. I love that last point because there are a lot of people who I know a lot of them a lot of people listening to this podcast would relate with this because I've heard from many of them that you know spirituality is of interest to them But

22:30 they uh have really bad experiences from a particular tradition. But to look at it in that way as if that tradition, like you said, gave you something to define yourself. Yeah. Not define yourself. That's not the right word, but to fight against to fight against, you know? And to see what you really believe and see the ways in which it falls short and see the ways in which it really does give beauty. Yeah. There's a nuance in there that Is I think done correctly is helpful in the spiritual path versus the sort of I've never really had any

23:05 belief in any particular thing in any particular way. It's just all very nebulous. Yeah. Well, I'd be curious to hear anybody who has never had any belief in any particular way as to how they'd say it, but certainly one of the things that a religion does is it provides a a normative narrative for you, a way within which your religion is saying, Here's a way to look at the world, a way to look at time, a way to look at afterlife if their religion believes in that. Here's a way to look at virtue and ethics and surprise and all of those things.

23:34 And I think everybody has stories that they use to hold their life together. And that might be a religion and its and its parables. Um It might be a cultural tradition and its parables. It might be the story of survival of a people who've been oppressed. It might be um the story of an identity.

23:52 And finding dignity in that. It can be any of these things. It could be a national constitution. What I think is important is within all of those is to have the capacity to ask very, very serious questions. And if questions aren't allowed, well then it's a dangerous system. I apply that equally to Catholicism, as I do

24:11 to the LGBTQI community. I've heard some people say, you know, when you join the LGBTQI community, you know, everything's much better because, you know, everybody there is just there for love. And you're like, That's bullshit. No, they're not. They're as ordinary as any community of people, and there's all kinds of ambitions and desires and jealousies and other things going on. If I can't question the narrative, well then it's a dangerous thing because then all kinds of threats about betrayal and expulsion and exile come in. Are you a proper gay? You know, and all of these kinds of things can happen. And that can happen in the local yoga studio as well as in the local library, as well as in the environmental activism group. as well as in the religiously evangelical group.

24:54 all of those groups will have to pay attention to how do we respond to the person within our group Who asks questions about the story the group tells about itself. And that's a test for the group. And suddenly we're not talking about the s the the great moral narrative at all. We're talking about what's happening in the room between the people.

25:12 Just this morning I was listening to a punk band I love called Against Me and they have a song called I Was a Teenage Anarchist and It's about exactly this. Like they got into the punk rock community because it felt like it was free and it was open. But over time, right, as soon as the singer Laura Jane Grace, as soon as she started to think differently or ask questions, she started to be ostracised, right? The scene grew too rigid. And the scene itself became the new authority. Yeah, you know, and and and I think you're right that any group I have wrestled with this in my own life in finding spiritual community and sang.

25:50 In that I think for a lot of years I would wander in and I would see those same dynamics and they would cause me to wander out instead of realizing that any group I wandered into. was going to have some element of that in the question is how is it dealt with, how is it handled. Because every group of people are is ultimately a group of people. And in all our messiness. Yeah, yeah. I'm very interested in taking old stories, biblical stories, and I am nobody new in doing this, but to take an old story and to try to enter into it through a curious pathway over you know, from the writings that have come over centuries, people have been doing that. um Jewish midrash has been

26:28 asking questions about the the gaps between the words for millennia. So there's one here, which is really about asking questions about belonging and taking the story seriously enough to take the story seriously. There's a text early in the book of Genesis where the Adam and the Eve character, you know, have eaten from the tree and then they've suddenly realize they've eaten the fruit of the tree and they've suddenly realized they're naked and the God character comes down and is looking for them and they're hiding Because they've realise they're naked. And then the God character makes some coats of skins for them. The text says, Now God made Adam and Eve coats of skins and dressed them. and the poem is called The Butcher of Eden.

27:03 And when he was finished he scraped fat from the backs of stretched skins. Wipe the blood. sewed the seams, bit the thread with teeth, and said Dress yourselves in these. And they said

27:16 What is this verb? God. shoved his knife into the earth and said. It's like make believe. But for your body.

27:26 They looked at all the meat still steaming from when it was alive. God says. Eat. And Watched while

27:37 Beasts of Eden. Fair. Um beasts of each. Hm. That's beautiful. And beautiful's even the wrong word. Maybe beautiful in a very striking way.

27:48 Yeah. I'm interested in what it means to take any story that has been part of shaping me And to look into his edges. The story of Ireland, the story of

28:01 you know, Irish nationalism, the story of religion, the story of being a man, the story of being a gay man, all of these. To ask serious questions and to do so knowing I can, that's my job. And it can be done playfully, it can be done intelligently, it can be done, you know But to become overly defensive of those stories is to miss Some of the subtlety and the brilliance and the wildness that's present in those stories. Yeah. That's the thing, but The better the story is in terms of gathering a community around, the wider it is.

28:29 Before we dive back into the conversation, let me ask you something. What's one thing? that has been holding you back lately. You know that it's there, you've tried to push past it, but somehow it keeps getting in the way. You're not alone in this, and I've identified six major saboteurs of self control.

28:49 Things like autopilot behavior, self doubt, emotional escapism. that quietly derail our best intentions. But here's the good news, you can outsmart them. And I put together a free guide to help you spot these hidden obstacles and give you simple actionable strategies that you can use to regain control. Download the free guide now at one you feed.net slash ebook. work and take the first step towards getting back on track. There is a poem that you love, which is also one of my favorite poems. And it's called Lost by David Wagner. It's one of the few poems I know by heart. I know about eight to ten by heart, probably. And there's a line in there that he talks about

29:34 you know, you must treat being here. as in present in this location and in this place, you must treat it as a powerful stranger. And I've heard you talk about how That powerful stranger isn't always benevolent, you know? That powerful stranger could be challenging and that to be here takes an ability to you say I think a robust ability to tell the truth. Say a little bit more about any aspect of that poem or what I just said, or it's one of my favorites and I just When you said it was one of yours, I was like, Well we got we should talk about that'cause it's quite a poem. I do love the poem. It's a poem of instruction, really, to somebody who's lost in the woods. And the title is last and the opening

30:17 Sentence is just two words. Stand still. The trees around you and the bushes near you are not lost. Wherever you are. It's called here. And you must treat it as a powerful stranger.

30:27 There's a way and it can be helpful if the circumstances are correct where maybe you could take that and just think, Oh, let me relax into the moment, let me relax into the now and look around and it's all lovely. Um and when those circumstances lend themselves to that kind of ease of heart of looking round, just r a readjustment. That's pleasant and maybe even beneficial. that can be great and that poem can work on that level. But wherever you are, um treated as a powerful stranger

30:54 is an invitation to recognize that, you know, the thing that you might be lost in might be a global pandemic. It might be a war. it might be a relationship that has suddenly changed very, very seriously. It might be something threatening.

31:11 And powerful is an amoral word. It just says if this thing is a powerful stranger. What's happening? You don't know what's happening. Mm to be alert. Perhaps to be ready to defend yourself.

31:23 But also to look. And I really like the neutrality of that instruction. Which is to say, um, just look, it's a powerful stranger. And what's your relationship with that powerful stranger going to be? And what can you do during the time? What is within your capacity

31:41 to respond to during the time. There might be nothing, like in the context of a global pandemic. You know, for most people it was just, you know, try not to get it, try not to spread it. You know, I wasn't out making the vaccine or you know. Yeah. And so like what I could do in response to that powerful stranger was to do that and but then also to try to support people who whose jobs were putting them in harm's way while they were trying to help people not be in harm's way or

32:06 All of those things. I've got friends who are Medics have got friends who you know, a friend who's a firefighter, I've got friends who were involved in teaching, you know, and that they were out and doing work all the time. And the question for me is in terms of what can I do in response to the powerful stranger of covet. that is not getting in the way of the fact that their jobs are suddenly more demanding.

32:30 while other people were complaining about not being able to leave the house, other people were like, I'd like to get back to my house because I'm Exhausted with the extra work I have to do. All of those things come to my mind when I think of the powerful stranger. that circumstances can be. I'm gonna attempt to bring two different things together here from that poem and something that you said. You have mentioned you like to reread things, but you say part of the concern in rereading a text often is that in so doing you read less and recognize more.

33:18 You glide over familiar words. You glide over familiar presumptions. And so with time you aren't reading what's there. You're reading what you think is there. And another line from two lines from that David Wagner poem are No two trees are the same to Raven, no two branches are the same to Ren, right? There's this newness all the time. And ideally, right? You know, he's he's positing that for them that's the way in which to look at things. And I'd love to hear you expound a little bit on some ways in which rereading, which is something that I do in my Zen tradition and other things. Ways that we can do that

33:58 that give us that perspective of Raven and Wren. Mm. Well Partly I think. If you want to. I mean I I really like rereading, but I know other people that don't, so I mean I don't know enough to know whether people should or shouldn't do it.

34:12 If you want to reread something. It can just be helpful to ask yourself, What am I noticing this time? That feels new. Or what felt monumental for me the last time I read this book.

34:24 that this time actually doesn't feel so monumental. You know, you might think, Oh, I was close to tears when I got to the end of that chapter the first time I read it. Maybe that won't happen this time. But you'll be noticing something else. You've been noticing that um you've thought about that chapter a lot since in the intervening time. Or it might be that there's a hero character that you have

34:43 Thought to be very fine. as you've thought about your own work. or your your responsibility in your family or whatever. And it might mean in the second time reading it or the third of the twentieth that you begin to think, I think that character has flaws, which isn't to decimate them, but it is to see them in a new way.

35:01 I think to reread something is to bring your own life back into the conversation with the book. Uh and that can be anything from You know, the Lord of the Rings. to a scripture. Or a country's constitution also.

35:14 But just you know, you mentioned, Eric, that you know poems off by heart. And just because you know them off by heart it doesn't mean that you've exhausted the possibilities of what those poems can reveal to you. To know something off by heart is to have it um ready at your disposal to bring into conversation to the circumstances within which you're brought to recite it. And that's going to change it because the audience is not just you, it's what's happening to you in the moment. And then the timeless words that you're Precising.

35:44 William Waters has a great book called Poetry's Touch. Which is looking at the word you in poetry. And he's saying that Poetry seeks an audience. And the audience isn't just

35:54 The first person to read it or the first time that person reads it. It is the changing circumstances of a life as you return again and again to something that is so important that you've learnt it by heart or You've kept a bookmark in it or you've had it printed out. Yeah, a couple of things you said there really struck me. And I think the being in conversation with you know, I was in twelve step programs for a number of years, a recovering heroin addict, and we would have big book meetings, right? The AA big book, and you would read the same chapters again. I mean if you kept going to the meeting, right, you kept You sooner or later you circle back to all of it and

36:29 And it was somewhat new every time. But I think it was made new by the fact that I knew that I was going to probably have to discuss it. Mm-hmm. And I was probably gonna have to say what it meant to me. And there was an easy path there, which was to say the same super wise thing I said last time, right? But there's a deeper way in which it says, what does this mean now? And so I think that idea of asking good questions and of considering yourself in conversation with is a really Like I had never thought of powerful stranger in the way that you

37:03 referenced it, right? I think I was more reading the poem in that sense of relax into the woods, right? Like be present with what is. But suddenly recognizing like oh powerful stranger, that might not be a good thing, recasts the the entire poem. And so I think there are ways of reengaging with text and you've helped Point out, you know, what several of those are. Yeah. Well, the powerful stranger might be that hungry wolf you're talking about. Yeah.

37:30 Another thing that you have talked about that I found really intriguing is you talk about in circles of faith or spirituality That we give a lot of time to the testimony. what being involved in that spirituality or or whatever has done for us. And certainly if I reference AA, right, AA is eighty five percent testimony. And that is in many ways a really good thing, right? Me hearing someone else's testimony that they were able to get sober and get through what I got through was really helpful because it gave me hope. But you point out that there's another side to this.

38:06 And It's that You know, if someone is saying Jesus fed me when I was hungry We hear that but those who are still hungry feel bereft. Or if someone's talking about the deep peace they get from meditation and we meditate and we're not getting deep peace, right? We feel like there's something wrong with us or

38:26 were failing in some way. So say more about that, because I think that's a really nuanced point. That testimony can be either really encouraging, but it can also be deeply discouraging. Yeah. Well, I think any testimonial is a certain form of initiation, which is about do you have the story of becoming a member of this group or reaffirming your commitment to this group in a way that you can share it with the group and the group will accept.

38:52 If you're ever in a group. like a twelve strike group or something like that, and somebody comes along and says, Oh, this is my first time And then they share something and it it's very powerful. People might go, My God, it it feels like you've been one of us for years. You know, you see that kind of affirmation. It's true and powerful and kind.

39:09 But I wonder who else is hearing that and thinking, Oh, nobody's ever said that to me about my story. And not just the point of view of comparison. There's always gonna be reasons to undo your own sense of stability with comparison. But it is to say what is being rewarded and what is being ignored and what is being punished. A testimonial is a certain way of communicating that you're a member of a group. And I'm always interested in a group, is it easy to join or difficult to join?

39:35 Is it easy to leave? Is it hard to leave? Does somebody else make you leave? Who gets to say what gets to stay? These are serious questions about what's happening. In any group. reaffirmation narrative experience.

39:51 There is a border around what kind of stories are likely to be told. And the braver groups I think allow for the stories that are being told to include elements of deep criticism. people might say, I hate coming to this group. I keep coming'cause it helps me in this part of my life. But actually certain things really annoy me.

40:08 And not just because I'm grumpy, but because they really annoy me. that's a really fine capacity that a group can have to hold critique. And what that can do is to signal to other people Oh God, I don't need to drink the Kool Aid. I can just think does it help? rather than do I believe absolutely everything that the group proposes about itself.

40:26 And Testimonial based groups. I think always have to pay attention to how much of their own ideology is being affirmed. It's a certain form of benevolent group hostility. Seemingly benevolent group hostility.

40:39 that can come across if all of the stories that are chosen or are rewarded in a particular way Are of a kind that demand obedience or demand Um stick at it until it works for you. Well what if it's not going to work? Whatever kind of effort

40:56 And pain is being demanded of the the storyteller To fit in. Does the group have the capacity to hear actually your demands don't work for everybody? And some groups too, and those groups I think can do something very interesting. Yeah, it does strike me as we talk about this there really are

41:15 I hate to use these words, I'll use them for ease of purpose, you know, although I don't even want to use them good groups and bad groups, but that's not what I mean to say. But to your point. You know, I can think of groups I've been in where There's absolutely no room for believing anything different, you know, or even questioning. You know, and and when I talk about AA, right, I'm I'm not talking about a monolith, right? That's the thing I often think that I want to say to people is like Don't go to a meeting and think you've experienced AA. You need to go to a bunch of meetings to see because, you know, in my town of Columbus, I could point you to some groups that I think are some of the most beautiful things on the planet.

41:51 And I could point you to some groups where I'd be like, I really I wouldn't advise that. Even in some of those groups. People are getting what they need. Exactly. Well, that's the thing. Yeah. And so, you know, it's really difficult to judge. And the other reason I love groups is I do think that if we can do it, it shines a real light on ourselves and how we respond to other people and what comes up in us. It's a it's a different opportunity for healing than in one on one conversation because group I think we all react to groups. We we show up and we're new and we don't know the people and we're instantly judging them and wondering what they think of us. And there's all this stuff going on. And that can be really instructive to watch and learn and be like, oh, isn't that interesting. Yeah, for sure. There's no such thing as a perfect group and I wouldn't want to join a perfect group. There's some groups that are doing really, really important work.

42:45 Have to become very self protective. And one of the consequences of such self protection is that maybe they fortify their borders to an extent that might not be needed. Or maybe they say, Oh, let's not have that story,'cause that story will query the narrative of healing that we're all about. That narrative will always push its way through. Let there be no doubt, the group will face its own hostility. That will always happen. And so I think in all the flawed groups you're part of

43:09 It's just a good idea to recognise we're not looking for a perfect group. And so therefore relax. Yes. The recognition that the group Is complicated. is an indication that it's a group and that it's doing its work. And if your group is

43:22 set up for communication and you find that actually your group doesn't have great communication. That doesn't mean you're a bunch of hypocrites. It just means you're doing the work. And The question is is Can you talk about the lack of communication in your group about communication.

43:36 If you can't, well then you have work to do. But if you can, you go, Well, what a brilliant group that can face its own subtleties. Face its own hostilities, face its own threats. Those kinds of groups are brilliant. Indeed. What is a poem that is really alive for you now that's not one of your poems. You've collected fifty of'em. You do a podcast, I don't know how frequently you do it, called Poetry Unbound, where you bring a poem out and and you discuss it. I'm curious what's really alive for you now or

44:05 I'll give you a choice B on that. What poem has felt really alive to you as you've gone through grief? It's a poem by Lorna Goodison. She's a Jamaican poet. Um She was the Port Laureate of Jamaica for a number of years. And it's an older poem of hers called This Is a Hymn.

44:22 H Y M N and it has the cadence of a lullaby, cadence of consolation, and she's basically in in the body of the poem looking out to people who have felt overlooked or outside and she's saying this is a hymn for you. What's great is that it isn't proposing some doxology. It isn't proposing some creed that people should believe in. Isn't proposing religion. It isn't proposing that these individuals were right or wrong, or you know, it isn't making an enemy out of whoever it is, whatever group that they were wishing to belong to, into which they don't belong. It's just saying here's a hymn.

44:57 Here's a small moment of something that you can recall. with a simple melody, ultimately that's what a hymn is. It has a simple enough melody that, you know, within hearing your verse and a chorus you should be able to continue to sing it along. I love the humility that she has to say this is a hymn and not explain what a hymn is. It's like if somebody was just saying, Here's your constitution.

45:18 Here's your constitution. Here's your constitution. Somebody might say You need to define what a constitution is and The um response is to say no.

45:27 Here's yours. Here's yours. And she's offering that out. And I think that is a beautiful, gentle poem. But underneath its gentleness lies a restraint in the writing. to not try to justify why she's making the offering.

45:43 And restraint in that way. is an indication of Extraordinary artistic control. And I I love the uh artistic control that Lorna Goodison demonstrates in that old poem of hers. Yeah, you'll find it online.

45:57 This is a hymn, Lorna Goodison. Well, we will put a link to it in the show notes. So we're nearing the end of our time, but I wanted to end on a top of prayer. You speak fairly eloquently on prayer and I could read a bunch of different things that you've written, but I'm gonna just tee up one thing and I'm gonna let you just then go wherever you want. And you say that true prayer only really needs one thing. And you said it's a recognition of need. Say more about

46:26 where you are with prayer right now, what you believe, that sentence, or anything you want to say about prayer and maybe even for maybe a slight spin for people who are like, uh, I don't know. Prayer doesn't sound like it's for me. And again, we're not trying to talk anybody into prayer, right? That's not our job, but it is always nice to I'll talk you out of it. I'm very good at that. Yeah. All right. I've teed it up, you do with it what you like. Well, sometimes I prefer to think about desire than prayer.

46:54 What is it that you want? What is it that you want to ask for? Where we get the word prayer from in English. It means to ask. And

47:04 Yeah, what is it that you want to ask for? And what's your relationship with your asking? A silly story. At the beginning of Covid, I had been overseas And so I had to very quickly come home to Ireland'cause at that stage everybody was worried that the airports in different countries were going to close. So I didn't want to be stuck overseas for a long time. Anyway, my suitcase, a small suitcase, got absolutely trashed on the way back, irreparably. That's okay.

47:29 It was a global crisis. So I thought I'm gonna need to buy a new suitcase. So there is a particular kind of suitcase that I liked. It's made out of recycled materials, so I um kept an eye on the company's website. Nobody was going anywhere, so I was in no rush. And because they only make from whatever recycled materials they have, the the colours tend to all be one colour for a while because they've just gotten a big shipment or something. Anyway, after a while you know, a couple of months, where I checked the website maybe every ten days or two weeks, a colour came up that I liked, so I bought the suitcase. Lovely. It arrived a week or two later.

48:00 And to my shock, though, I found myself going back on the website. of this company, just looking at what new colours came in. Not thinking oh I might have chosen the wrong one because I like the colour that I bought. But I miss my looking, I miss my wanting, I miss my desire.

48:16 in itself can be a crisis. The silly example of the bag. Can indicate something much more complicated for us.

48:27 It might be that you think I'm looking for the one, uh the r a romantic partner. And yet when you find somebody where you think this feels like a great fit. You still might f find yourself missing looking. Or you might think That job that I really want.

48:42 A promotion. That recognition that I really want. When I get it, there will be something in me where my yearning, my desire Will be ceased because it will have been gratified. And it probably won't.

48:54 You your hunger will find a new way to look. And so for me the question is about prayer is not about where it's going to, but where it's from. And what's my relationship with my desire? What writing, what walking, what thinking, what quietude. What talking to my friends, what being honest about what I

49:12 Damn hypocrite I am. what practices of that kind do I have? To help me acknowledge. the complicated way within which desire lives in me. And to find something that's good enough to hold that.

49:24 You can call it prayer, you can call it meditation, you can call it Talking to your best friend. You can call it whatever you want. Provided it's it's doing the work. And that I think is necessary because our desires have many levels to them, and they can drive us. And the question is is where will they drive us?

49:40 That's what comes to mind when I think about prayer. Before we wrap up, I want you to think about this. Have you ever ended the day feeling like your choices didn't quite match the person you wanted to be? Maybe it was autopilot mode. Or self-doubt that made it harder to stick to your goals. And that's exactly why I created the six saboteurs of self-control. It's a free guide to help you recognize the hidden patterns that hold you back and give you simple, effective strategies to break through them. If you're ready to take back control and start making lasting changes, download your copy now at one youfeed.net slash ebook.

50:20 Let's make those shifts happen. starting today. One you feed dot net slash Ebock. We are at the end of our time. You and I are gonna continue in a post show conversation where I want to explore this idea of desire and fulfillment and craving and the distinctions of all that, and we'll also have you read a poem or two of your own. Listeners, if you'd like access to the post show conversations, ad free episodes

50:46 special episode I do each week called Teaching Song and a Poem. And the pleasure of supporting something that matters to you, you can go to one you feed dot net slash join. Podrick, thank you so much. This has really been a wonderful conversation. I really appreciate it. Thanks, Eric. Thank you so much for listening to the show. If you found this conversation helpful, inspiring, or thought provoking, I'd love for you to share it with a friend. Sharing from one person to another is the lifeblood of what we do. We don't have a big budget.

51:17 And I'm certainly not a celebrity, but we have something even better, and that's you. Just hit the share button on your podcast app or send a quick text with the episode link to someone who might enjoy it. Your support means the world, and together we can spread wisdom One episode at a time. Thank you for being part of the One You Feed community.

What you see above is a preview of the first minutes. One unlock costs 10 credits and covers this episode forever: full segment and word-level timestamps on this page, plus .txt, .srt, .vtt and word-level JSON downloads, as many times as you like.