The C-suite is messier than you think, with Maryam Banikarim

0:01 The very best founders I know are brilliant at building systems. They connect teams, they remove bottlenecks, and they eliminate single points of failure. And yet When it comes to their own wealth. Most are running a disconnected stack. A tax accountant here and a state attorney there, a wealth manager who doesn't talk to either one of them.

0:22 Creative planning was built to fix exactly that. One integrated team of tax professionals, state planners, investment specialists, all coordinated by a dedicated wealth manager who sees your full financial picture and keeps every piece working together. Proactive tax efficiency, state strategy, investments all under one roof. Creative planning where wealth works together. Learn more at creative planning dot com slash masters of scale.

0:53 Hey folks, Jeff Berman here. I am thrilled to share some of the new names who will be joining us at this year's Masters of Scale summit. This may be our biggest stage yet. Reed Hastings, Meredith Whitaker, Van Jones, Amjad Masad, and more. Will be there with us October 20th through 22nd in San Francisco. If you're building something great, or you want to build something great, We want you there with us too.

1:20 Join us at masters of scale dot com slash apply twenty six. That's mastersofscom slash apply. Twenty six. I remember when I took the job at NBC Universal and it was my dream job, right? Like cheers, friends, that was my network. I show up and the HR person says to me,

1:44 You know that these are the mean kids in school, like the ones who won't let you sit at the cafeteria table. And I remember saying her like maybe you should have said that to me before I sign my contract. And then I had my group meeting with my team. And somebody said to me. We fired all these people and hired you.

2:03 And then a person said, Well, you have the worst job outside of the janitor. That's Mary An Banekaram, former CMO of Univision Gannette and Hyatt and host of the podcast The Messy Parts. Today we focus on career disruption, which is escalating across the economy. Mary Am stories and advice are illuminating from navigating the politics of the C suite to embrace joy and betting on yourself. She grew up in Iran and so shares her personal insight into the current Middle East conflict, looking for hope amid the chaos. Mary Ann is funny, unpredictable, and inspirational in her commitment to the power of human connection and what we can all achieve. So let's get to it.

2:55 I'm Bob Safian. And this Is rapid response. I'm Bob Safian. I'm here with Mary Ann Banikaram, host of the terrific podcast, The Messy Parts, founder of the new community, The Interval, which I'm eager to hear more about. Also founder of NYC Next and the Longest Table, former chief marketing officer from Univision to Gannette to Hyatt, and a longtime friend.

3:23 Mary Am, this is gonna be fun. I'm excited, Bob. Let's go. Let's start with The messy parts. Cause first of all, I love that word messy. Can you describe what the messy parts is and what you mean by messy? The show is about interviewing successful people about the things that go wrong. I think that in a world

3:43 Like we live in today, we see the highlights real, whether it's on Instagram or LinkedIn or any place else. It looks really easy to sort of climb the ladder or become a founder and have a unicorn company, right? But the truth is. It's never easy. Everybody has mess. Those moments stay with you and you figure out how to pick yourself back up. They're never easy, but actually that's where the growth is, right? I love the word messy because I feel like creativity is messy, growth is messy, you know, we we have plans, but life is really what happens when, you know, your plan didn't work out. I d like, have you always been drawn to Messi? Well, I think I never knew anything but messy. I mean, I'm a kid who grew up in a revolution. My mom and dad went to college in Boston and left me behind with my grandmother in Iran when I was three, which most people think is really traumatic, but what else did I know? Um, you know, I had a father who drowned windsurfing when I was a

4:38 sophomore in college. I mean I only know Messy. But What I also learned is as a result how to pick myself back up pretty quickly. And I think the sooner you learn that, the easier it gets. Not that we want people to have complicated journeys, but I do think you develop this muscle memory that while it may be hard. You learn sort of that it's gonna be okay. And sometimes the the mess Yeah.

5:03 Is the opportunity. too, right? It's it's finding the opportunity in the mess. A hundred percent. Bloomberg talks about having started Bloomberg as a result of being fired, right? When people step away or pause, whether by choice or by you know, somebody else's choice. What ends up happening is that you have to sort of decompress and deal and find a pathway. I had a job that I took at Amarati Purit's Lint House. It's not even on my resume. I took that job and A week in I knew oh things were not good here. And

5:37 You know That was terrifying. But If I hadn't walked away from that job, I wouldn't have Had a pivot in that moment that really became transformative for my career. After that.

5:50 It's easy to see that in retrospect. But when it was happening and I was like Oh my effing God. Yeah, that didn't feel so good. Yeah, but it's hard to it's hard to walk away from things

6:01 Yeah, especially if you're someone who like, No, I I'm I'm a successful person, I get things done, I solve problems. Why can't I solve this one? I'm a professional problem solver. That's generally what I say people are in the world of business. The hardest thing for me is sitting still. When that pause comes, It's a real moment of identity shift because You know, I remember leaving Hyatt and taking a year and a half off, and literally to the person, they would be like, She's the former global CMO of Hyatt, as if somehow I had no value outside of that title. Um, I had headhunters who called me who said You know, don't wait too long'cause you're not gonna be able to go back in.

6:38 Аміндер'я when you pause. Again, whether it's by choice or not. And I think for people who are successful You know, to get to that level.

6:50 Yeah, your identity is completely intertwined because you had to make sacrifices in order to be able to get there. I know when I when I left Fast Company, you know, which I had been there for eleven years it was a long time and I did have this sense of like What is my r relevance? You know, like where do I go next? And y and you you do feel a little lost.

7:11 I'm still trying to figure out what I'm gonna be when I grow up. I don't know where this journey's gonna take me. But each thing leads you to the next thing, right? And so I think that belief that It will work out, even though it seems easy to say. Is actually

7:26 Pretty much true. I would say that is the through line. Among all the people who have come on. Now they have Some of them will tell you. You know, live your purpose. Some of them tell you don't live your purpose. Like there's a lot of competing ideas. But the one thing I will say is grit resilience, they work hard and they

7:43 learn over time that even though they have these bumps which are inevitable, that it somehow works itself out. You mentioned your your uh your upbringing in Iran. What do you make of it? Do you s do you still have family that you're in touch with? Yes, I still have family there. My aunt um and her husband are still there. I left when I was eleven in fifth grade at the end of fifth grade.

8:04 And for sure that was I think the beginning of a feeling of non-belonging in in a way, right? Because you were sort of extracted in the middle of your life from the world that you knew. I have felt numb pretty much since then in some ways. I remember when the women life freedom broke out, there was this song called Bararia, which is um which actually won a Grammy that year. When that song played for the first time. Something in me broke and I cried. I I don't think I'd cried. The entire time, right? For me, I was a kid.

8:34 As um the revolution heated up, we had more and more kids who were being pulled out of school. We had teachers who left, we had martial law. My father was under house arrest. Um But as a kid, oddly, I found it exciting. And so I had an American teacher. She did current events. And I remember at the end of the year she said to my mom, Your daughter's gonna become a journalist. And as they were killing all the journalists, my mom said to her, That is a fate worse than death. Huh. So, you know, but I think it's hard not to

9:05 Look on. Obviously, there's a lot of civilians being impacted, not just in Iran, but in also all the other places where bombs are being dropped. Um There's no question that This has been a Government that's sort of terrorized its own people. I think there's a sense of

9:23 We're gonna burn it to the ground before we give up. So you worry about where the end is. Um I don't think anybody You know, who knows what's happened in terms of the repression and really the aggression which which they've put down any kind of protest. You know. What

9:42 Would be sad that Things change. But I do think we're gonna experience a high cost of What you call You know.

9:51 Unintended casualties, right? And I think That's a hard thing to watch from afar. And I know people who check in on their family. And I should say the families check in on them because the internet isn't working, cell phones aren't working, landlines are how parents are getting through to their children or cousins to their cousins. You know, people wake up and it's pitch black from the fumes, right? There's

10:14 A and I think I'm worried about the water supply. There's all kinds of things. And that's not even talking about all the implications that could happen outside of Iran and other neighboring countries. And frankly, even here. You know, I have kids who've never been to Iran, right? They were born outside of Iran. Would I like to be able to take them back and show them where I grew up and sort of this incredible rich history You know, a country that's been around for a very long time with amazing sites and people, of course. But the question becomes The question becomes At what price?

10:46 And by the way, is there an end in sight? I don't know. It's hard to tell. I mean Do any of us know? Hm.

10:53 I mean, out out of all this, you have been yourself a very creative person as a marketer and and otherwise. I mean, I remember during the pandemic, you sort of threw yourself into championing New York City at a time when city seemed scary and at risk, and you rally people in the arts and outdoor performances, and you put together the longest table, which is this was this sort of block long dining table in Manhattan to kind of fuel connection. Now you've started a community called the Interval for for executives in transition. Is there something that you feel like connects those things?

11:32 The through line is belonging. I think for me as a kid who lost her sense of belonging, not only creating belonging for myself, which I really did by joining and doing. Like that's how I found belonging. I was like, I'm willing to help and get involved. But also finding Helping others find belonging for themselves. Like nobody needs to repeat middle school, I say. Like I think we can all relate to that emotion.

11:57 Um, I think that that matters in the world of business. When you step away, again, by choice or not, there is this incredible moment of vulnerability. And I think what's amazing about the interval is that you find a group who Is willing to support you without judgment. I mean, I remember when I left Hayek. My son said to me, Mom, you're the most busy unemployed person I know. And I think, you know, motion was my default. Um he was not wrong. But I think one of the nice things about sitting with um other members of the interval is that

12:32 We we recognize each other. I actually spoke to somebody who went back in for a job. And she called me a couple months later and she said, I've decided to leave this job that I went back in for. And I was like, wow, you just took it. Like, what happened? She said, being part of the interval made me realize that life is too short and I don't want to live my life that way. And I have the privilege of not. So I've decided to move on. I think there's so many different ways to live your life. For me. The longest table, which is a nonprofit, has been a way to reinvent myself, right? To just give back in a different way. And honestly, I'm in a place to be able to do that now, even doing the podcast. I always wanted to be a journalist. Apparently that was seeded from fifth grade, but I was financially not in a place where I felt like I had that. Um opportunity. So you know you My mom used to say and it was such a cringe moment for me.

13:22 She'd be like, It's never too late. You can still be Oprah. And I'd be like, Oh, Mom. You know? And I think like I may not I may not be Oprah, but I can be me. I can be messy me. And th the interval i is the is the scale of it. designed to be small or is this something that you feel like over time will become a bigger community? The backstory of that is that when I left Hyatt, I took a year and a half off. It was such a moment of privilege to be able to stop working and not worry about pay my bills. And it led me to write this article, which the New York Times published.

13:58 I talked about stepping away, right? This moment where my son said to me, If you go back in, I'd miss you. And that moment Like really stopped me in my tracks and made me decide to not go back in. Which was terrifying, but then as I said, amazing. Um, so Shelley Huff and I met, Shelley's um my co-founder, we met at Fortune's Most Powerful Women. A room that was, you know, a big thing to get invited into. She just left as CO Sort of Simmons, and she came to find me a couple of months later in New York, and I said to her This is a hard thing to go through. Like if you run at that pace.

14:32 When you stop, it's like the earth moves beneath your feet. It's hard for people around you to understand because You know, they're like, Oh my God, do you have free time? You can go to yoga, right? But you're having all these existential moments. And so I introduced Shelley to a couple of people. And then over the course of 18 months, there was like a hundred people in this group. Like literally, there'sn't a week that doesn't go by where somebody doesn't say, I have somebody else who should join. So I think we're gonna see. Now we we know having been parts of lots of communities that size matters in terms of Like intimacy, right? And so I think we're very intentional about how we're gonna

15:08 You know, of all the interval if you reach this level And you find a group of people who are willing to be there for you, I joke, like in their curlers, right? Not like in their best suit, like just like yeah, I see you. So I think the intimacy matters, and can you do that and scale? The interval grew out of Fortune's most powerful women is is it for For women.

15:30 Primarily. Since we've announced, um, since we went public, we actually have gotten inbounds from men. Who wanna join. Men go through the same kind of a thing when they step away. I talked to a friend who was a CEO at a very big company. And he um left his job at the end of December. I talked to him maybe a couple of weeks ago.

15:47 He said, for two months I was super busy. Today's the first day I have nothing to do. I don't know what to do with myself. I just think about this like, you know, my middle school analogy, it's like You know when you're in a big job, everybody calls you. The minute you leave that big job, like all of a sudden it's like you hit the plague. Nobody seems to remember you, right? But the two people who call you, you remember them. You remember the people who were there for you not on the high, but On the low because

16:14 Guess what? It's easy to be there for the party. Not so easy to be there You know, for the funeral. Mm. Mary Am gives a great reminder about what true support and connection means. Like most things, it can be easier said than done. So what does it take to dance in a flash mob or navigate the internal politics of the C-suite, or host a community dinner across the length of the Brooklyn Bridge? Mary Am shares stories about all three and more after the break.

16:42 Stay with us. Hey listeners, Bob here. If you listen to Rapid Response on Masters of Scale, you may be missing half the show because every Friday we release a second Rapid Response exclusively in the Rapid Response feed. The guests and topics are just as compelling and timely. From Ford CEO to NASA's administrator to the lessons from The Devil Wears Prada. It takes about 10 seconds to find. Just search Rapid Response wherever you listen to podcasts and hit follow to make sure you never miss an episode. I hope to see you there. Humans will never be more intelligent than AI. There's been two types of companies. Those are great at AI and those that went out of business because they weren't. How do we build a future?

17:39 That is human centered. I'm Rana El Cal Yubi. And on my podcast Pioneers of AI, we answer that question and so many more. As an AI scientist, entrepreneur, and investor, I know what it takes to build AI that works for everyone. Every week, I sit down with the pioneers shaping our future. And we take you behind the scenes of the AI that's transforming our lives. Find pioneers of AI wherever you tune in.

18:12 Before the break, founder of NYC Next in the Interval, Mary Ann Bannekaram, shared how her upbringing in Iran during the time of revolution has shaped her career. Now, Mary Am talks about the politics of corporate life, how she hunts for joy in unpredictable places like flash mobs, and the value of embracing messy ideas. Ideas. Big and small. Let's dive back in.

18:39 One of the through lines I see in your life is that you are a terrific marketer. You get people excited. in unexpected ways. Um I mean you mentioned to me when we were talking yesterday that you were recently part of a flash mob. So the Flash Mob was organized for the every woman biennial, which is a biennial that is for women and non binary artists. And um So they were organizing this flash mob as part of their opening, which was on international women's day on Sunday. But they had me at Flash Mob. I was like, I've always wanted to be in a flash mob, right? I mean, I don't know.

19:16 I'm not a great dancer, but you know, I like to dance. I went to one rehearsal I kept saying to them make it simple. I have no memory anymore. And then we showed up on Sunday. There we were on 22nd Street. Dancing. Um And bright colors, and it was so fun. We danced to Lady Gaga. I have to say I would definitely join a second flash mob.

19:37 And I you know, one of the things I think is we don't have enough joy in our lives these days. I mean, the world can be difficult. Like there's a lot going on, as you pointed out, in Iran, but even here. And just having a moment where you Remember joy where you actually get to feel joy, which dancing does for you. I think Watching a sports game does for people, you know, experiencing music does for you. It really does change your

20:01 Mood. I will confess that I had to buy a bottle of Advil in order to be able to survive a flashback. If you know, like my hips aren't the same. You seem like you never get self-conscious to me, Miriam. I mean I I I saw the a video you posted recently walking through the subway while it was like on fire, like there was smoke everywhere. I mean it's not the time that I would tend to pull out my phone. I get on the subway and I hear an alarm. So I'm like, wait a second, what's happening?

20:31 And then I say to the person next to me, like, are we moving towards the smoke? So I decide, okay, I'm gonna pivot and go the other way. And so I just found out that the messy parts had been written up s really nicely by somebody on medium. I just wanted to talk about that. So you know, it's like I'm a millennial. Or whatever that is that knows how to make those videos. I will say, like anything, the more you do it, the better it you get. Now it definitely my daughter does the eye roll, like, oh my God, mom. Um But yeah, you're right. I probably It's like good thing I was never worried about being cool. Because I definitely am not.

21:04 Is that one of the the lessons that you've learned from the marketing world? I mean, I like are there lessons about the marketing world that That folks listening to this that you feel like people Don't get or should get more about what's effective, what makes it work. One of the things I've learned between the New York City next, the longest table, the messy parts interval, is like a lot of these things were not baked business plans. You know, they weren't like laid out with the strategy and a 10 year plan. They were just ideas. You know, the longest table was an idea. Like, what if we did this? And then I tried it. I had no idea if it was gonna work or not. It was a

21:43 Low investment. thing to do other than being embarrassed if it didn't work out, right? And so we just tried it. And now we have over 2,000 people who come to Chelsea for a long table on the street, and 50 of these that have happened across the country. I didn't set out to create a movement. You know, I didn't see my way to fifty tables when I started. you know, that I highly encourage everybody to do is just to be willing to try things. And

22:09 Oftentimes what happens when you're in these big jobs, you have to convince people, right? You have to present big proposals and convince them. Do brands matter? How much is it gonna cost? What's the art by that time, like The creative idea has been You know, shriveled up and thrown away. What I've discovered between New York City Next, where we did a moment for Broadway and the Billy Joel video, that won an Emmy, right? Like Totally out of my regular box.

22:35 Is that sometimes if you really believe in something and you invite others in. Because none of these things were done as one person. Real magic can be unlocked, and in the end, marketing is about storytelling. Right, I think the longest table has grown through other people's storytelling. And In the end, it's about connecting emotionally, right? So

22:57 People wanna feel things. When you're a CMO, it's so much command and control. When you're in the C suite in general, right? You're Leading from the top, directing from the top. I tell people you do the longest table, it's about grace and trust. Somebody shows up for a volunteer meeting and says they're gonna organize the day of volunteers, you don't know them. And you're like

23:17 All right, Bob looks okay, like Bob. You know what? All you. And if Bob doesn't do it my way It's totally okay. Actually, it's kind of amazing. And so When you do that, everybody it's like an orchestra. They all get to have their own piece. They all get to be individuals, but part of a collective. I think that is a huge lesson for marketing. Because in today's day and age, you don't control things. You think you control things. But you don't.

23:42 One of the things that that businesses sort of struggle with is the idea that, you know, there's sort of there's organic demand if you have a creative and a good enough idea. And then there's sort of marketing driven demand as these is these two different levers and and You know, how much do you put towards one versus how much you put towards the other. D do you have a philosophy about that? In the end, great marketing is actually solving somebody's need. Right. That's why marketers, by definition, are curious. Like you have to be interested. I remember when I was at NBC Universal, I was not an oxygen viewer.

24:17 So it didn't matter whether I liked the show or not. It was about who the oxygen viewer was and did the show actually connect with them. In today's world it's m very, very two way, right? It's not a one-way experience. So how do you invite them in? Um So I mean I don't know. In the end

24:35 I I have less of a framework and I think I've developed more of an instinct over time. But you do have to bring other people along in a big organization. Right. Um You have to get the CFO on board, the CEO on board. I mean, that is part of the job in the C suite. Uh I will say when you're doing a longest table or whatever, you have to bring other people who are as crazy as you who are willing to do things that, you know, may seem irrational to other people, but when they come together, boy, is there magic to be unlocked.

25:04 You've been inside the C suite at at a bunch of different places. Are there things that people don't share about what it's really like to be in the C suite like that people don't understand what what that experience is or what's happening in there.

25:20 I mean what I would say is it's very political. Right. And I don't know, do people really understand that? You go in gung ho try to make all this change and the company may reject the organ that they need, right? I will say somebody who did change in turnaround. I often was the outsider who was brought in. You were not shy about being the outsider. You didn't mind that necessarily, right? Well, I was always the outsider in my life, so it's kind of a perfect fit for me. I will say that you do have this like

25:49 Bravado or this ability to put fear aside, which I think is definitely true for me. I remember when I took the job at NBC Universal and it was my dream job, right? Like cheers, friends. That was my network. And I get the job and I'm so excited. It was after Univision and I Signed a contract. I show up and the HR person says to me. You know that these are the mean kids in school, like the ones who won't let you sit at the cafeteria table.

26:15 And I remember saying to her like Maybe you should have said that to me before I signed my contract. And then I had my group meeting with my team. And somebody said to me We ha we fired all these people and hired you.

26:29 And then a person said, Well, you have the worst job outside of the janitor. I was like welcome. And so We learn at every job. We learn like what we like, who we want to be. I I'm I think I've learned to be kinder over time and less focus on just getting the job done.

26:47 Right, like you hire me and I'm I'm gonna move mountains to get what you need done. Now I think I would push back a little bit more on that. Now I have a little bit more perspective. I mean, I remember so distinctly at NBC. There was a m I two bosses. There was a moment where one boss I'd inherited a a group and she wanted me to just Get rid of all of them. And I was like, okay, I know a way to solve that. I could do that. You know, I have a way like that I could make that happen.

27:13 And the other one was like, I'm not gonna let you do that'cause politically that is massacre and you're gonna That's not that's not gonna be a good thing, right? So it was interesting having these two Bosses who One who just wanted what she wanted at whatever cost, and the other one who sort of had a political read

27:30 And I I think you get better, but what is the corporate job like? Like half of it is about getting the job, half of it is just the politics. Y you and I have talked privately about that some of the CEOs you worked for you had a lot of heart for, others kind of less so. I'm I'm not asking you to name names, but like What makes a good CEO you want some messy parts, Bob? You know, I don't want to put you on the spot. What makes a makes a less good CEO? For me, I really cared deeply about purpose, right? I cared about working at a place where I believed in the product that I thought we could make a difference beyond just making money. So I picked people who were purpose driven. Like that was a thing that mattered for me. Sometimes

28:14 They are purpose driven. Sometimes they say they're purpose driven, as you know. You know, I remember People always say like I want people who are gonna Tell me it like it is. Sometimes they mean that, sometimes they don't. I mean, I remember I met a um a CEO and he wanted to hire me like literally after an hour meeting.

28:33 And I was a little thrown. And I said, You don't know me. Like I'm actually gonna tell you bad news even when you don't wanna hear it. Like, are you sure you're up for that? And people think they're up for that. And then you do that and guess what? There's a price to pay. I think for me choosing a CL is like choosing a friend in in the sense that like I have to be values aligned.

28:54 Right. I have to know that you're not just gonna Pivot on the dime and be like, Oh um, you know, flavor of the month. Like you ha you have to actually be able to make hard decisions that you can stand by. This something I learned early on, actually as a child in Revolution, where it was like easy for people to just move expeditiously to save their skin. I wanted to be on the boat with other people who are rowing in the same direction for a cause that was bigger than themselves.

29:20 Really, there was something magical about that, and honestly. When we started doing New York City next and the longest table I really felt that, right? In that moment where the city was at its worst, when really there was nobody out on the streets, when everybody came together to make a moment for Broadway happen. You know, to sing one song on the steps of Times Square when nobody was being given permits, where Bernadette Peters showed up and twenty four other people and Clear Channel gave us free boards and Gary Vayner did free PR and Andrew Gollum did free ads that we put up. It wasn't about any one person. And by the way, who better than marketers to do that kind of a thing? Who better than marketers to create community and create a long table? I mean

30:01 Seriously. I mean that is what we're built for. Not just making a marketing campaign. Yeah, I can get on a soapbox. Okay. You and I

30:12 Texted earlier this week about sort of the the environment we're in and, you know, the the changes going on in Iran and in the economy. And we were encouraging each other to like focus on what's closest at hand and the things we can control. When you're looking at projects that you're gonna do, new ideas, new initiatives, new marketing things. Like how much do you say like, Oh, here's low hanging fruit that I know has momentum that I can You know. play off of versus like, Oh, here's a big bet.

30:45 of something that like it may never work out. But like I'm gonna go for it anyway. I was always a plan A B and C kid. You know, I never thought something was gonna work out, so I always I was always having different things. I mean, I in my head, it's a bit of a mess. I think AI could really organize my end. Um so I try lots of different things, not really necessarily always knowing if it's gonna work out or not. With the longest table, I had no idea if that was gonna work. It was just an idea. But when we started doing it and, you know, just putting up the flyers.

31:17 Every night when I walked the dog at eleven o'clock, I re fliered the street. You know, I didn't leave it to chance. It wasn't gonna not work because I didn't put in the elbow grease. So then when that worked the first year, it was like wow, there's something here. So I could have that moment. Of like okay, there's something here, maybe we should do it again. But I also dream of doing one across the Brooklyn Bridge. Now that's not easy.

31:39 Right, but it could be really amazingly glorious. Like literally and figuratively connecting people over a body of water for a shared meal. So I've been chasing that for three years. I literally chase the head of the DOT under the Adams administration to have a conversation with them about it. Like no stone unturned. That won't be the reason it won't happen. I'm I'm always optimistic. So

32:02 So in this world where so much is uncertain, is there a a a a lesson of messiness that we should all You know, take with us. It I would say embrace the mess. It's actually Difficult, but the thing that will be most rewarding. If you can somehow let go and sort of just be and remember the things that gave you joy when you were younger. you begin to connect with things you didn't even

32:28 you know, you didn't know about for a while. And I think like that's what the flash mob was about. I was like Why not? Let's see what that opens up. Well, Miriam, this has been uh this has been great. Thank you. Thank you so much for doing it. Thank you so much for having me. Ha ha ha.

32:45 I just find Miriam a tot of fresh air. I always have. She brings in energy I think we all sorely need, her truly entrepreneurial spirit, her wisdom about bold ideas, her sense of experimentation and community, and most importantly optimism. She's emblematic of what I call generation flux. Those who are ready for whatever the world sends our way. The fear of embarrassment shouldn't stop us. Whether for our professional aspirations or more broadly in society, willingness to embrace the mess, as Mary Ann puts it, is the key to true progress. I'm Bob Safian.

33:23 Thanks. Rapid response is a wait what original. I'm Bob Safian. Our executive producer is Eve Tro. Our producer is Alex Morris. Associate producer is Mashimaku Tonina. Mixing and Mastering by Aaron Bastanelli. Our theme music is by Ryan Holiday.

33:50 Our head of podcasts is Le Tal Malad. For more, visit rapidresponsshow.com. Yeah.

What you see above is a preview of the first minutes. One unlock costs 10 credits and covers this episode forever: full segment and word-level timestamps on this page, plus .txt, .srt, .vtt and word-level JSON downloads, as many times as you like.