Transcript

The New York Times ‘will not be cowed’, with CEO Meredith Kopit Levien

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0:53 Hey folks, Jeff Berman here. I am thrilled to share some of the new names who will be joining us at this year's Masters of Scale summit. This may be our biggest stage yet. Reed Hastings, Meredith Whitaker, Van Jones, Amjad Masad, and more. Will be there with us October 20th through 22nd in San Francisco. If you're building something great, or you want to build something great, We want you there with us too.

1:20 Join us at masters of scale dot com slash apply twenty six. That's mastersofscom slash apply. Twenty six. The point of lawsuits or attempt to denigrate

1:37 The independent press. That I believe is just an abject attempt to deter reporting. And I want to be clear, the New York Times is not gonna be cowed. In a time Where The big tech platforms that control a lot of the flow of information are sending fewer and fewer people to To publishers to independent journalism outlets like the New York Times.

2:01 We have among the largest audiences we have ever had. I'm out all over the country. I talk to liberals, I talk to conservatives. The universal thing I hear people. Believe there needs to be a shared fact base. Plenty of the country. wants independent fact based journalism. That's Meredith Copet Levian, president and CEO of the New York Times, recorded live at the twenty twenty-five Masters of Scale summit in San Francisco on October 9th.

2:36 I wanted to talk to Meredith about what it takes to sustain fact-based media in 2025 in the face of attacks from all corners, including the White House. Meredith talks plainly about the future of the New York Times as a business, how news coverage relates to the Times fast growing lifestyle products, plus the impact of AI as a revenue source, and more. It's an inside look at operating a brand with no peers, but plenty of challenges. A brand that under her leadership has defied financial troubles plaguing other news outlets. So let's get to it. I'm Bob Safian, and this Із рапи респан.

3:20 All right, Meredith. You ready to play this game? Let's do it. Okay. So so you have led the New York Times through uh a period of Kind of extraordinary transition. I mean a time that's been Hard for a lot of media companies. You've reframed the business. In a lot of expanding what the brand Covers from from games like Wordle to deep sports like uh the athletic. Um lifestyle services, right? Uh time New York Times cooking and wire cutter. I mean you you've sort of successfully um shocked the old gray lady into into a new era.

3:56 З вот the Ніорк Тим стансь форд. Or or is this more just about business model? What a great question. Thanks so much for having me here and I hope we've got lots of readers and watchers and listeners and game players.

4:14 In the room. I would say what you just described is about the business model and I'll talk about that. But at the core of what we do. We are covering the world's the most important stories in the world. Um with hardcore news journalism. And we are doing that day in and day out, working All over the world where things are happening to the highest, you know.

4:43 set of of professional standards with a sort of level of editing and rigor and quality that I think is getting more rare and valuable. I always say on a list of ten things. That are important at the New York Times, getting that right every day and making sure that that is in service to no one's interest but the broad Public is one through nine. proposition I remember this at Fast Company'cause the The stories that we were most proud of and that we put in in some ways the most resources against were also the ones that we

5:15 really lost the most money on. Yeah. I I don't know that I um totally buy that that premise. Let me tell you, as a business Um, our job is to do news journalism and have lifestyle products that are so unique and so valuable. to people that Um they seek them out.

5:39 directly and they ask for them by name and they make room for them in their lives, they form habits with them, and that that happens at a scale of tens of millions of people. And we as a business are aiming to be Essential to curious people everywhere who want to understand the world and who want to kind of make the most Of their lives and passions, and there's basically three elements to that in our business. Be the world's best news destination, have leading lifestyle products in really big spaces. You ticked them off. Games, sports, recipes, shopping advice where people spend a lot of their Passion time and put that together.

6:19 an interconnected product experience so whatever is going on in the world Or your world, there's something for you. The news Work credibility, added credibility to all the other things. No doubt, but let me just say it is also think about it. There are things happening all over the world that really matter із also.

6:46 An enormous generator of audience. It is an enormous generator of sort of engagement and people just coming to the times to see what they should know today. It's the thing that imbues The whole place. with its sort of sense of authority and and people's belief that everything we do is to a particular quality standard and just to challenge your premise a little bit It is the most economically value creating thing. That we do. It is the most value creating thing we do for society, no doubt, but it is also the most economically value creating things.

7:35 Was there any concern that like oh We're You're gonna undercut this credibility. You're gonna undercut this I mean, I'm sure you've got you got this question. Once or twice. Yeah. Um Look, we want to make

7:50 The best Games that clever people play and want to play with their families, and we want to make more and more of them. We want to be number one at that. We want the athletic. To be a household name for every curious person. Who is a big sports fan. We want to do nothing but add dimension to their lives and and make no mistake. We're building that to be a leading product. We want Wirecutter to be the best.

8:13 Product reviews you can get Anywhere and you know the New York Times cooking app is already the I think it's the largest paid recipe app there is, and the recipes we've tens of thousands of recipes there at such a high quality. We want to um lead in each of those spaces and we have no sort of constraint on the level of ambition They're

8:38 Ан івен стіль I'm gonna tell you By far the biggest and most important endeavor we do at the New York Times is cover. The most important stories in the world so that people can come to us, you know, at great scale and really just. understand what's happening around them and what really matters and our ability to do that effectively.

9:02 is what kind of gives us permission and again sort of establishes the standard for the way we do everything. So um I can can I say one more thing about it? You know, um No doubt having wordle and connections and strands now Pips and I hope everybody's playing those games, um, or having a a really successful atletic

9:24 Ar success there. No doubt enables us. To you know invest more and more In the hard core journalism of the New York Times. So like that is absolutely. конструкт

9:39 Um, you know, we We won we won a number of Pulitzer prizes last year. One for our coverage. Of the war in Sudan. It happens to be, I believe, the world's bloodiest conflict. Right now, we're not doing that because we think it's gonna get clicks. We're not doing that.

9:58 Because we think that's necessarily going to drive the commercial business. We're doing that. Because the expectation is the New York Times is gonna tell you The most important things that are happening in the world, and people do need to know about it. So that that's that's how the model works. We are doing that because that is our job. That's what the world needs to know. And the more people who play Wordle or find a chicken recipe from us, or like me, or a die hard and frustrated Jets fan. Who has to get their fix on the athletic the more people do that, the more of the other thing we can do. The New York Times brand.

10:39 Вен на президент Унаїд Стайс Sue for fifteen billion dollars and calls the New York Times. Now I'm gonna quote this. This is one of the worst and most degenerate newspapers in the history of our country. How does that impact your business? All of this work that you're doing to Generate

11:02 You know, uh trust. In the news and the work that you're doing. Yeah. Um Let me take that in in two parts. Um

11:12 The lawsuit had no merit. I think I think you know that. I think you don't need me to say that. The judge the judges rebuke. Um I I think demonstrated that how quickly it came and and how forceful it was. The thing that is worth lingering on is what do we believe is the point of lawsuits like that or name calling or attempts to denigrate. The independent press, not just the New York Times.

11:39 Um That I believe is just an abject attempt to defr deter, you know, more high quality Independent journal journalism to deter reporting, to stop us from what we're doing. And I wanna be clear, the New York Times is not gonna be cowed. We're not gonna be stopped by that.

11:59 Or anything else. Anything else? As As far As

12:08 What does it do to our business? And I I have to say everywhere, you know, I'm out in the world talking to a lot of people now about What is independent journalism why it matters. When you're in conflict with the president it's hard To continue to be percived. as nonpartisan, which I know you want all your reporting to be perceived as I mean to be and to be perceived as it's a great question.

12:36 Лимі лемі секлум і на time в лост. Um in a tribalized and deeply polarized country where it is very easy for people, for any of us, to kind of retreat to our ideological place or to to get most of our media in in a filter bubble. Um and no doubt the Times takes its lumps from ideological camps and particularly from people who have an entrenched world view

13:07 who do not want that world view. Challenged. Um, no doubt. But I want to tell you I I'm out all over the country. I talk to liberals, I talk to conservatives, I talk to leaders, I talk I talk to people who are just living their lives. And the universal thing I hear from people it gives me enormous hope for the country and for journalism. People

13:29 believe there needs to be a shared fact base and how do you get To a shared fact base, you get To a shared fact base. through reporting, through independent Professional journalism.

13:41 So much of media now. We're we're living in a world of an abundance And by the way, some of the takes are great. I'd listen to a lot of takes or watch them. But

13:53 Less and less original reporting, number one. Number two. The this get upset every time I say this fact, but something like three quarters of all the newspaper journalism jobs. In America have gone away. In the last twenty years, which means people do not run into independent journalism kind of at the

14:13 r level of relevance and value to their daily lives, and we are all spending much of our media diet now with kind of affirming algorithms that that give us what we already think um or just affirm our world views. Independent journalism exists to do something very different from that, right? It is about

14:35 Reporters who go out into the world with А посту в серчинг і на новою. And the job is to unearth facts that are really important sourced. And verified in multiple

14:50 Ways. So that the reporting can be as Fair And accurate as possible. There's just less of that. In the country and the world.

15:00 And lots and lots people who believe the world really needs that. I think I'm a business leader. not a journalist by profession I think when you make a product that people at real scale N You can have a great business, and I want to tell you.

15:16 In a time Where You know The big tech platforms that control a lot of the flow of information are sending fewer and fewer people to

15:25 you know to publishers to independent journalists journalism outlets like the New York Times Івен і на time. We have among the largest audiences we have ever had. We have fifty to a hundred million people who come to the Times every week and millions more, many millions more, who listen to our podcasts and who read our emails and and you know I I I could go on and on at how big the audience is That gives me confidence and hope there there are plenty of people, plenty of the country.

15:58 wants independent fact based journalism. What Meredith is saying about her business model is that the New York Times stands for excellence in news and journalism, but also in games and sports and cooking, and that distinctiveness is what fuels the brand's success. So How is AI impacting that business model today? And what might be the impact in the future? We'll talk about that after the break. Stay with us.

16:31 Hey, listeners, Bob here. If you listen to Rapid Response on Masters of Scale, you may be missing half the show because every Friday we release a second Rapid Response exclusively in the Rapid Response feed. The guests and topics are just as compelling and timely. From Ford CEO to NASA's administrator to the lessons from The Devil Wears Prada. It takes about 10 seconds to find, just search rapid response wherever you listen to podcasts and hit follow to make sure you never miss an episode. I hope to see you there. Humans will never be more intelligent than AI. There's gonna be two types of companies. Those are great at AI, and those that went out of business because they weren't. How do we build a future? That is human centered.

17:22 I'm Rana El Calyubi. And on my podcast Pioneers of AI, we answer that question and so many more. As an AI scientist, entrepreneur, and investor, I know what it takes to build AI that works for everyone. Every week, I sit down with the pioneers shaping our future. And we take you behind the scenes of the AI that's transforming our lives. Find pioneers of AI wherever you tune in. Before the break, we heard New York Times CEO Meredith Levian, live at the Masters of Scale Summit, talk about why she is encountered by attacks on the brand and why the Times' audience is as big as it's ever been.

18:04 Now she talks about suing OpenAI and Microsoft, doing an AI licensing deal with Amazon, and why she loves podcasts and audio. Let's jump back in. You mentioned the the tech platforms out here. People are increasingly relying on uh AI chatbots. For their information. a risk to branded news outlets and subscriptions like yours, because you might get your information from somewhere else. You you sue the OpenAI and Microsoft for scraping time's content, um, but you now are getting paid by Amazon.

18:41 for licensing gear content for their A AI training data. Is is AI Like is this is this a potential like good business opportunity? For for the times in the long run, is it is it sort does it make it a tougher business? Or is it is it too soon to even know where that's gonna land? I'm gonna do better than just say yes to all that or maybe yes to all that. Let me say a few things. Um first

19:07 Um I would regard the fact that we have sued OpenAI and Microsoft And that we have done um done a deal with Amazon um for the kind of full scope of of um of A I you you know, working with our content in AI for news, the athletic and cooking. I'd regard those things as of a piece. We are both enforcing

19:32 Uh right. um through the legal system and we'll do that as as is necessary. And demonstrating that there is a clear market for deals here where you can have um fair value exchange in in a sustainable way. And you feel like you're your content will be distinguishable, you know, in a in a premium way the way it is.

19:57 I just told you how much audience comes to the New York Times. I am certain that what we do, and by the way, we're not the only one's doing it. The Wall Street Journal, the Washington Post, Reuters, the AP That work is only getting more rare. and more valuable we have

20:13 You know, like an ungodly amount of copy written stuff we've done for a hundred and seventy four years, and we produce hundreds every single day we produce hundreds of news stories and pictures and And that work is done. Um you know, to a a professional standard. These companies are spending Hundreds of Millions of dollars, in some cases billions.

20:39 On power and compute And talent and we believe they should also be paying For the work that underpins their models. That's just it what's at issue here. Now I'm not gonna I I can say that. Without also saying without also saying, the Times has a really good track record through lots of different eras. Of using the most advanced

21:02 Technology To make our reporting richer and our products better, and to get that work to so many more people. I'm a runner, I ran this morning. I listen to a lot of the New York Times now. in our what is I think our third generation of an automated voice and like she sounds like a real human being reading it to you. We um when the the um Sydney Sweeney ad came out we actually our journalists used AI to debunk a a sort of common narrative that

21:36 the left was up in arms, that that that's sort of where that started. We used AI say actually this started as a sort of narrative on the right and then moved, you know, across a a wider group of people. So we're really optimistic that AI If used lawfully, if produced lawfully, can be a force multiplier to the three thousand journalists and content makers at the New York Times to make the work richer, get it out to more people, and like every other business. Find the things that are not You know, the main idea of what we do, find ways to do them more efficiently. You know

22:14 Uh AI companies are spending billions on chips now. They should be spending that on The other input that's necessary for this is an ecosystem. And for those models to continue to be great. They're gonna need great information. You know, it it it all works together. And so what we are fighting for and really trying to make sure the public understands.

22:38 is There has got to be sustainable фер валю екшен. For high quality journalism and by the way, also for entertainment, for anything that is, you know, creative intellectual property, there's gotta be a business model for it. And if there isn't, the models aren't gonna work either over time because there isn't the great information to actually have to surface. From

23:02 You mentioned the audio products that you use a lot of times. And since uh Master Scale at its at its core has been an audio product, has been a podcast, and I I host a podcast. Wha what what role do podcasts play an audio play in your business strategy. Yeah. Let me say three three quick things about it. Um one

23:25 Um Strategically This is about Um getting people understanding harnessing the two thousand people I just described to you who work on news journalism broadly defined at the New York Times saying, how do we get

23:40 information to people? How do we take the world's most interesting or important stories and get it to people In a way. where it's interesting and compelling. And you know, in some instances I think audio is very intimate where just people can like Taken the information and really feel connected to it. Um, so that that's the first thing to say. The second thing to say is I think nine years ago now. We launched the daily.

24:05 And you know, what was the daily? It was not. Um I'm gonna read you the headlines, right? It the the insight behind the daily is we have this giant newsroom at the New York Times. And if we can plumb that newsroom for what was what was the most important thing that happened yesterday or in the in recent weeks that people should really know about and then deliver it to you in a way that

24:30 Almost feels like, you know. Michael Barbaro is your friend and he's explaining the news to you. That will really open up a whole new audience and engagement pattern for the Times. And it has done that. And now, you know, camera pan nine years later. In American politics, we have The Ezra Klein show.

24:52 Which is exploring the biggest ideas on on the left, and we have the Ross. Douth it show interesting times, which is exploring and hosting the biggest ideas and kind of idea makers. On the right, and we have modern love. We've got Hard fork with Kevin Rus and Casey Newton. really high quality journalism

25:13 But delivered in a fresh format that maybe gets you the information and an even more compelling way and brings new people in to say, Oh yeah, this is This is for me, and so. to us Podcasts, audio, shows, video.

25:28 It's just all about kind of I always say. We're not in the newspaper business, we're in the understanding. business and in the in some instances with what we're doing in the We we might even be entertaining you as we do that. We're in the business of getting you really, really high quality information.

25:45 That you know helps you understand the world and live a better life. Well, Merit, I want to say as a um as a journalist myself, I uh I very much appreciate that you are showing and demonstrating that the work that uh my colleagues and I do is something that can be valued and can be sustainable in in our business world and is worth investing in. And uh thank you so much. And thank you. Thanks for having me. It was fun to be here. Thank you. I am of course gratified and reassured that Meredith is a believer in podcasts. Our goal with Rabbid Response has always been to let you hear directly from business leaders on the front lines, and Meredith is certainly on those front lines, adapting to a shifting media landscape.

26:31 battling to defend the value of the content her colleagues create, whether that's standing up to harsh words from President Trump, Or standing up to data scraping by OpenAI and Microsoft. Meredith mentioned the word trust a couple of times, and that's really at the core of her strategy and her business, building trust in the facts her journalists produce, but also building trust in anything the Times produces, that it will be of premium quality. Whether it's a new game like Pips or a podcast on modern love. We'll be sharing more of our own distinctive premium content at Rapid Response every Tuesday and Friday, including more great conversations from this year's Masters of Scale summit, about AI in the workplace with leaders from LinkedIn, Meta, and Box, about what it takes to lead a successful turnaround with the commissioner of the National Women's Soccer League. plus the CEOs of Chobani and Patagonia and more, I hope you'll join us.

27:26 I'm Bob Safian. Thanks for listening. Rapid response is a wait what original. I'm Bob Safian. Our executive producer is Eve Tro. Our producer is Alex Morris. Associate producer is Mashimaku Tonina. Mixing and Mastering by Aaron Bastanelli.

27:53 Our theme music is by Ryan Holiday. Our head of podcast is Le Tal Malad. For more, visit rapidresponse show.com. Yeah.