#587  80,000 hours with Benjamin Todd (A Career Well Spent Series)

Transcript from https://podmenti.com/t/8e348f594ca6b622

The things that people are passionate about when young, it tends to be the same as what everyone else is passionate about. And you're getting led into the most competitive areas where it's then harder to get all the other things that matter for being satisfied.
We're gonna be talking about your book 8,000 Hours, and probably not just the book, but also the the work that has gone into it. You could be super passionate about art, but if you have a terrible boss, you're gonna end up pretty miserable even if it's in your dream field.
Passion follows from mastering valuable skills because then you get that sense of competence and you also get the bargaining power to get all the other aspects of a fulfilling career that you want.
Kind of motto I suggest instead is do what matters or
Build valuable skills and apply them to meaningful problems. What are the problems in the world that you choose to work in and how can you use your time to solve them?
Hi, I'm Helen from the Squiggly Careers Podcast, and you are listening to the last episode of our summer series, where we decided to focus on what does it mean to have a career well spent? Sarah and I thought whilst we've got our reflections, we'd rather get some insights with some experts. So over the month,
We've been talking to four different people to get some insights on purpose.
Longevity
Building the right relationships, spending your time on the right things, and today's conversation, which is going to be about how do we make sure that we are doing the work that matters most to us. What does it mean to do good work? And for that conversation, you're gonna hear me in discussion with Benjamin Todd.
The author and founder of Eighty Thousand Hours, and Benjamin's work is really about.
Asking ourselves, what does it mean to have fulfilling work? What are some of the questions we should be asking? What are some of the reflections we should have in terms of where we're spending our time and what we're working on, and where can we all make a bigger difference? I think this is a brilliant end to the series. I would love
Your reflections on today's conversation and on the things that you've heard over the series overall, please send them our way. We're just Helen and Sarah at squigglycareers.com. But for now, let's get started with my conversation with Benjamin.
So welcome, Benjamin, to the podcast where we're going to be talking about your book, Eight Thousand Hours. I'm probably not
just the book, but also the the work that has gone into it.
that has led to the book and the insights and how they connect to Squiggly Careers.
Thanks. Uh yeah, great to be here.
So before we get into
Eight thousand hours, how we make a difference with our time, how it connects to squiggly careers, all that stuff. Can you just give us a bit of an overview of your squiggly career so far and how it's led to the book?
Yeah, sure. I mean
My career was may maybe wasn't that squiggly in the
I was um a student o at Oxford.
And I was wondering what to do with my own life.
And
Yeah, I mean I
I mean, the longest story I was as I was involved with is community called Giving What We Can, which is a group of people who all
pledge to give ten percent of their income to life to to to charity, whichever charities they think are most effective.
And so we were all there really interested in how can we make a difference more effectively.
And we just realized these ideas applied to our time as well as our money.
And I ended up meeting Will McCaskill.
who was then a philosophy PhD student.
Um
as well, and he was also asking a lot of the same questions.
So we
Yeah, we kind of
We didn't really
feel like anyone else was asking the questions quite in the same way that
Motivated us.
So we started doing our own research.
into which carez we could make the biggest difference in.
And yeah, we gave a talk in Oxford.
And I think about twenty five people came.
And then about five of them ended up like totally changing
the life plans after that.
And they said we should start an organization based on the ideas.
So
Um, I actually ended up working full time
Straight after I graduated.
And then
was CEO of the organization for ten years.
Um so just kind of did that one thing. And then yeah, after that then I've
Now I've been kind of I I handed over that role
In twenty twenty one.
Um or twenty twenty two.
And now after that I've had more of like a portfolio kind of thing, doing writing.
And some consulting and research and things like that.
I do think though being um CEO of a growing organization, it is just like the role changes all the time. So even though you're doing the same role, your skills, your network, your knowledge is constantly updating to do that role.
So I want to talk a bit about a statement and it connects actually to the start of uh Sarah and my work on Squiggly Careers. So um
Back in twenty thirteen, that's when we started our business.
We
I guess we were seeing it's like early days of Instagram, and we were seeing a lot of posts on social media that had had those like, love your job, do what you love, follow your passion.
And our premise was
That's a bit trite.
And
actually if people are going to connect to something they care about at work.
There are
a set of skills and actions they need to take. Like this doesn't just happen.
M and in reading your work, I think you have
A similar
I don't know, frustration with the whole follow your passion advice. But I think your perspective on it is slightly different because of the context of your work about helping people use their time to do good and why the whole follow your passion thing is gonna take people down the wrong path. Can you explain your
'Cause it's not just frustration, it's data based, right? You've done a lot of research and a lot of data around why that doesn't lead to the best kind of outcomes for people. Can you talk us through it?'Cause I found it fascinating when I was reading.
Well, so we talk about a survey.
Of Canadian students in the book.
where they were asked what their greatest passions were.
And they said dance and ice hockey. Yeah.
Um and then ninety percent said sport, art or music.
Which makes complete sense.
Um but only three percent of jobs uh
in in Canada in those fields.
And this this illustrates that
um, you know, the things that people are passionate about when young, it tends to be the same as what everyone else is passionate about.
And they're often not that relevant to jobs.
And you're getting led into the most competitive areas.
Where it's then harder to get all the other things that matter for
Um being satisfied.
Like um
Just you know.
working with people who you find supportive not having a terrible boss.
'Cause you could be working in your
Like you could be super passionate about art, but if you have a terrible boss uh at the gallery
Then
You're gonna end up pretty miserable even if
Um it's in your like dream field. Yeah.
Yeah.
And so almost setting people up for success. Like in that example, I remember reading that in the book about but people following their passions, but every lots of other people have the same passion, and you're not necessarily creating
the m best opportunity. There's a I'm gonna see if I can find it now. Oh.
Oh my gosh, I actually got to the exact page I wanted to in your book. I don't know if you remember this, but but the long term career satisfaction kind of the what did you case if we your formula for long term satisfaction, which I thought this is a much better, uh a much more constructive way.
about thinking about what does it take to have
the job you enjoy over the long term. Um I won't put you to the test, so you have to do it, but I'll I'll read it out because I found it quite
a useful way. Our listeners love like practical things that they can almost like you know, models they can reflect on. And so the first thing you'd said, there's like four things that lead to long term career satisfaction. So as career capital
um your skills connections
Your immediate impact.
Which is the pressing problems. I might come back to pressing problems in a moment. Uh pressing problems are I guess well that's where you can make a difference and
the amount of difference that you can make.
And then there was supportive conditions. So that's like the bad boss at the gallery thing. So you want to have engaging work, supportive colleagues.
And how does it fit with your goals outside of work? And then the last one, the last ingredient here is personal fit. So what are your drivers?
And we would also probably talk about values there, the things which the things that motivate and drive people, your track record. Um, I liked that as a
I quite like a formula and I like a matrix. It's just how my brain works.
But it made me think about
Follow your purpose or follow your passion probably is
It might get me to something that is energizing, but I don't think it helps me to take actions that are effective.
Whereas when I f if I was to write down your formula and and put things underneath it
I would be able to see
Well, where have I got
Like if I was to sort of red band red amber green them, I'd be like, Oh, my career capital's probably green. I've got some good stuff there.
But immediate impact.
I think or haven't really reflected on
What are the pressing problems that I
could be solving with that capital. And so I think I think it's a really helpful way to kind of audit your
Come and say satisfaction and what you might need to change. Um I mentioned the long term problems, like the pressing problems. Um, and there is another bit in the book where you talk about like
And
You know, forgive me and correct me if I'm getting it wrong, but the most pressing problems in the world right now, from your perspective, where actually if you want to
Make.

putting some of your time, effort
money, energy towards solving these problems.
would be where it is best spent.
That's fair reflection of the three
Yeah, like
We so we talk about how to make more impact with your career. Yeah.
And I think
I mean n w what normally people think of as an impactful career is just they think of the job title.
And they think, well, nurs, doctors
Teachers, social workers, those are the jobs that make a difference.
And then there's like
The corporate careers that are kind of maybe neutral.
And then there's like bad careers like corporate careers neutral. I spent a long time in a corporate career. I mean, some people would say they're like mildly good and some you know but they're not normally what we think of as like social impact careers, like the ones that do good. Yeah.
Um you know, and then there's like working in big oil or something, which is like bad. Um and that's pretty much
That's like pretty much the scope of options.
But
I think it's like much more about what you do in the role.
than the job title itself.
And in particular, we think the most important driver of your impact is just what problem you focus on in the first place.
And that's another
Again, like
Normally if you
If you went to like a careers advisor or a mentor and said, Well, I really want to have a big impact
They would say.
Uh, basically just follow your passion. Like, you know, if should I work on climate change or health or education or changing like improving career advice.
And people would just say, do the one you're most passionate about. Like you can't really compare these things.
But I actually think
That's
That that decision is the thing that drives your impact the most.
Um
And so we talk about trying to find problems that are big, neglected, and solvable. Mm-hmm.
And trying to find the one the ones that do best on balance of those three.
that you might be able to work on.
Yeah. And then once you found those problems, you can contribute to them in all kinds of different ways and
Um yeah, we could come on to
We can come on to that later. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So if you want to make an impact
Then don't follow
your passion, actually think about what are the most pressing problems that you could work on in different ways to have that impact. And then what you're gonna be best at.
Yes. Among those different options. Which I guess is that career capital, like what the way that we all might contribute to solving those problems would be different.
Care capitalizate the skills you build over time, which like improves your ability to contribute. And then when it comes down to your short list
Of options.
I would say like choose based on personal fit. Okay. Yeah. Okay.
Try to work out whether we can do this with my career, whether this is gonna be very exposing. Let's can we start with'cause in your book I found it um
I don't know, refreshingly clear.
And almost slightly worrying. When you like very specifically outlined we think these are the three
Biggest problems right now. Um
Let's start with those. Would you mind talking them through for us and then we might have a think about how could
somebody if I kind of just almost say, Well, well, my career has been in this area generally, these are the sort of skills that I've got.
'Cause I was looking at them and I was like, Whoa they're quite big.
And then
How could I connect my
talents and experience to solving those might help people listen to think, Oh, if I'm I'm working on something that's very different to that today, how could I?
make an impact and contribute to it. So maybe let's start with the problems. What you think are the three most pressing problems in the world right now? Yeah, and I and I want to be clear, like in the book, we help people, whatever your views, you can use the framework scale, neglectedness and solvability to find the problems that make the most sense to you. Yeah.
Um, but I do also
have an opinionated chapter where I give my own takes'cause I think
People find that useful. Yeah.
But um
But yeah, these will be like
These will be going more off into
The deep end of it. Yeah. So
I mean very big picture, I just think the most important thing going on right now is
the rapid improvement of AI.
And
What happens if you just
project that forward a bit further, like the current trends forward.
Um
I mean, this is a huge topic, but
Like
If you got, say, AIs that could do remote work jobs pretty much as well as humans.
That could have
huge consequences in
You know, as so there's many different ways to see this, but
Essentially the economy now can't grow that fast because the number of people is fixed. But if you can kind of create digital people.
then effectively the population can
grow massively and we could end up having
billions or ten tens of billions of AI workers.
And that means like
Economic growth could like rapidly accelerate.
And also if those AIs can do scientific research, the number of scientific research
Researchers could
Increase like a hundred times or or more.
So the rate of scientific progress could also really speed up.
this maybe like really transformational moment we're facing as a society when this might become possible for the first time.
Um and so then my frame is like this is gonna create
All kinds of different problems that could arrive very soon, like
in the next five or ten years we could s we could start seeing some of these things.
Um
And
So then my my th my thoughts is like okay, well what are the the biggest and most neglected
kind of
Things that will arise from
um this this transformational moment if if it happens.
And then there's like
We have
Mean we actually there's probably actually about on our full list on our website, we maybe have like about ten. Okay. Um, but uh you like highlight three the most
in the book and
Um
Yeah, the first is engineered pandemics.
So
It's possible for a pandemic to be much worse than any naturally caused ones.
And you know, cov
Covid was actually like a very mild
pandemic compared to
Even what's possible naturally.
And if AI
in speeds up scientific progress. It might be possible to engineer viruses much sooner than it seems seems naturally.
And
Yeah, I mean we could go into like
why anyone would ever be released, but
One thing I've been thinking of is
You know, we had mutually assured destruction with nuclear weapons.
So
You could get a state like North Korea saying, Well, we have this supervirus. If you ever invade us, we'll release it. Okay.
Uh that's the one way it could happen.
Um
Though and then also like there's lab leaks all the time. So it might just get released by accident. Yeah. Um
Um okay, and then the second is concentration of power. So
There's the several ways in which
AI is
Very centralising.
And could make it possible to
Um
really concentrate power in either one country or even just a small number of companies, much more than was possible.
In the past?
And this could be bad'cause then like that small group will dominate the future. Mm-hmm.
Um okay. And then the third one.
which we actually rank first. Um I'm doing them in reverse order. Is um loss of control of AI systems themselves. So
You know, current AI, they're trying to make it
agentic, which means it can like pursue long term goals because
An AI that you can just say like, Oh, go run this business for me.
Go and make me money.
is so much more useful than a chat bot where you have to kind of continually prompt it.
So that's what all the companies are trying to build.
Um
But if you have AIs that are capable of like
If they're kind of like have human level intelligence but are capable of pursuing long term goals.
Then
It's like it's possible for them to escape human control and there's
There's a few reasons why you might almost expect that to happen.
Um, which yeah, I talk about in the book.
And
And I know.
I found it fascinating because I think I'm not always that
Zoomed out.
So just part of that reading that chapter in the book, I think it just helped me to sort of zoom out some of the problems that I try to solve and then think, wow, these are really big significant problems and
Um
Am I in any way spending time supporting them, but even
Even just generally as a thought process, I think starting with
What are the problems?
in the world that you choose to work in, and how can you use your time to solve them? I think that is a very different
career question.
to ask an answer than the one that to your point starts with what job title do I want, or what jobs are available in my organization, or even what jobs are available in my function, because we see a lot of people end up getting stuck in a silo because of how they think about their development. Whereas I think starting with a problem, whether you're as
significant as the ones that you're talking about needing solving, or whether it's an industry problem.
you know, it might not be as significant as ones you talked about, but it's still
it's still a slightly different way of thinking about your career to start with the problem.
Yeah, and
I mean I'll try kind of
Try out a framing.
I don't know if I've quite managed to get stick, but I kind of often think like internal versus external. And I feel like a lot of career's advice is very
internal focus. It's like it's all about
your strengths and preferences and interests.
And often a lot of career's advice almost sounds a bit like psychotherapy.
Um I like
Whereas
Another approach is much more
External focus and it's more like
Okay, like what actually matters
Trying things out, seeing what's working.
Um
Like testing things.
And it's this more kind of like empirical approach.
And
I think that is a big theme of the book is trying to get people to
Like
Yeah, just get outside of their own heads a bit and their own like
Like
Self kind of focus. Yeah.
And think like what can I offer?
And I would I would argue that actually
You know is
is actually a better way to make yourself happy as well.
Um
And again, it kind of comes back to the
to follow your passion advice. Like in a way that's quite um
It's quite limiting'cause it's like, Well, what am I passionate about now? And then like, can I try and like
find something out there in the world that like matches this th this vision that I have.
But the the kind of motto I
Suggest instead is like
So I sum it up as like do what matters or
Build valuable skills and apply them to meaningful problems.
And I think taking that
That approach.
Like
It's getting you to think like
what is actually
helpful to what is actually helpful to other people.
And that
both like is satisfying in itself'cause like helping helping others can be really meaningful.
But it also means you then get skills that actually are valuable, which then means you also

The things that you want personally too. So
Yeah, like we would say like passion follows from mastering valuable skills because then you get that sense of competence.
And you also get the bargaining power to get
Or the other.
aspects of a fulfilling career that you want.
Yeah, I think sometimes where we talk about um so one of the things we talk to people about in the context of squiggly careers, and it starts from this sort of premise that in a squiggly career,
your talents Trump titles. So actually talents are sort of your currency in a squiggly career because they're going to take you to to many different places.
Oh.
within that what we talk about people is you want to create pull rather than push.
So push would be me saying
You know.
I'm good at this. I want to do that.
And it's kinda like I'm pushing myself onto Benjamin want to do that.
Whereas pull is much more
This is a problem that I can see you, the organization, the industry is facing, and this is how my ability can help to solve that. And it's such a different way of people thinking about
And it and I I guess it does require a bit of both, right? So
You do need the awareness of self, so you do need a bit of the internal
But you have to
You have to attach that to the external to actually like create the opportunity.
Yeah, I like that.
Yeah, and I was just trying to put my finger on like exactly what's the thing that
How
What exactly is the mindset shift that unlocks it. But yeah, I like I like the pull versus push.
Framing.
Um
Yeah, if you go too far with the
kind of external approach.
then you can end up doing something that like makes sense intellectually.
But you're not actually aligned with and then you
burn out a couple of years later. Yeah. Um so that's the risk of that approach.
Um
But
In general I would say people are much too biased on the kind of
Wait, so which way round were they thinking the push approach? Um Yeah. So people are more like, Well, I want to do this. And I and I hear it a I hear it quite a lot. And they're like, Well, I want to spend more time.
This is what I enjoy. This is what I want to spend more time doing. And my challenge is always well.
How does that help your manager? How does that help your organization? How does it help the industry? Like if you can't
Talk about how your talent solves a problem, it's very hard for someone to sort of buy into you doing something different. We find that particularly relevant when people want to do a pivot and
I don't think that always has the filter. Like I was thinking of
In your work, I think
It made me reflect on or what might be missing from some of the conversations that I have with people.
Is what's your for good filter?
Because I think
When we talk to people, we talk about what motivates and drives your values.
your strengths, what gives you energy, where do you have impact? And there are some other skills.
But I don't think
And I might I might see like oh what's a what's a Benjamin question that I could bring into our work because at the moment I don't think
I add a
And like
a for good filter and how could the work that you do
make a difference beyond
the team, company, and industry that you're in. I don't think I I provoke people to think about that. And it's really made me think from your work, oh that's that's missing from my work.
So I would like to sort of just end with a last piece of advice on impact. So I know we've gone into lots of different specifics, but I'm thinking if someone's here now and they're kind of
Inspired by
a lot of what you said and then thinking, or maybe I don't have a for good filter. I have I've missed my for good filter and I want to do I want to do
More good. Um I just couldn't don't quite know where to start. What would your advice be to that person who's going
I definitely want to make a di more of a difference than I'm doing today. What would your advice be to that individual about what they should do after listening to this podcast?
Mm.
I mean, depends on how much time you have. Give us the ops, give us the rage. Like
The thing I would like
If you if you have the time.
truly is actually think about this question of what are the biggest
And most pressing problems in the world.
Um and just having
some guesses about that because that will make a huge difference, you know, if you if you conclude you want to focus on climate change or education or AI.
That will have total.
Totally different options would come out of that and totally different skills. Um
So
Getting that.
Just thinking a little bit about the big picture can have a huge effect and
And I would also argue with
have a big effect on how much impact you eventually have.
Um
And then
Once you have some guesses, which yeah, and it doesn't need to be certain, it just needs to be your best guesses for now.
Um
then you can start to generate options for how he might
Work on
That problem.
In some way.
Which
Again, if you're like in the most
aggressive end of things you could then think, Well
Yeah, should I totally change my
career path should I
Um I mean often
I mean yeah, within within AI, uh it just as an example
There's a lot of really interesting nonprofits working on this this problem, so that would be one kind of
Broad set of options.
But then there's also a lot of stuff in government and policy that needs to be done. So
I'm actually a lot of people from corporate careers
switch into the civil service or
Uh think tanks.
Um
And then there's also a more like a communications project, so like spreading the ideas, which you can do on the side of another job. Um
as well, or you can you know, you can do that more professionally, like you could
Be a marked, but then
switch into like using those skills to
To help.
Um so I mean there's lots more options, but like
It will be then starting to generate these different
career paths or
I guess more just like concrete jobs you could take.
And then comparing them and thinking, Well, am I
You know which of these is best. And
How could I transition? How could I move from where I am now to that?
Um
That's like the most ambitious option.
Um but then if you want to just
Stay in your current job, but
Um
Support
These problems.
Alongside that.
I think again this often
gets really overlooked.
in the discussion about doing good with your career, because again, we think of it in terms of like a specific job title or
we think of it only as working as a at a social impact organization and like that is doing good and like all other careers are
I'm not doing it. Yeah. But um
Yeah, I mean this comes back to one thing we said right at the start. I mean
Donating ten percent.
of your income to if you really choose a charity that you think is really effective working on one of these problems, that can have a huge impact.
And you can think of that as like
Maybe your skills are a really good fit for
A corporate job.
But then by donating some of
you know, you're earning like several times more what someone would earn in the charity sector.
And
But by donating a bit, you can enable a bunch of other people who are really good fit for those charity jobs to
Take them instead.
Um
There's also like
Consulting or using your skills to advise in a socially impactful organization?
So again, like if you were a lawyer or something, you could
Do pro bono advice.
But yeah, what would really determine the impact is like
finding the right organization and the right problem. Mm-hmm.
And that would be
what really encouraged people to think about.
And then yeah, spreading ideas on the side.
So just even just
I mean understanding of AI I think is still so
Um like
'Cause it's such such a new.
Thing.
Um
most people haven't heard so many things about it. So I think just like
It's quite easy to improve the
the general discourse about that topic and you can do that just like on your social media
feed or talking to people in your industry or
Um
Yeah, I mean telling other people about impactful jobs.
Can have as much impact as switching yourself,'cause
Um if you help someone else switch into more impactful career.
Then you know, you've saved yourself switching yourself.
Um
So yeah, I think also mentoring
mentoring people. Um
So yeah, there's a whole chapter on this and the book about like um yeah, I actually I was that was where I was actually gonna go now. It actually was my one of my favorite
um chapters'cause I think if I was doing this
And I I will do this, Benjamin if I want to I will do this. I think to start with pressing problems and I think
Yours are like the highest level pressing problems, like the most one
Down.
kind of most significant to the world right now. And there could also be a
kind of personal pressing problems. I think there's probably like two levels of it. And then I think I would do like the how to help.
Which I would just take your categories, like the earning to give, which is that one where you said like you basically give some of your money. You're in a
well-paid job, give some of that money towards solving one of these problems. Um and there's like five different categories aren't there, communicating ideas, which I think I have got that skill and do that, but I maybe don't connect it to the most pressing problems, which was kind of my reflection. Research you mentioned government and policy, which you mentioned and building organizations.
And I would probably have the problems. I'd probably have those five things and think, which ones do I want? Am I gonna rule any of those out and then rule some in? And then back to like the career capital and things, how does it solve it? I can just see it.
flowing flowing down. I think it'd be a really, a really useful exercise for people to do. And that book really helped me and your work generally.
has just really helped me think about
making a difference and having an impact might not
Look.
like the way that we framed this before. And actually there are
potentially much more effective ways for us to think about it that we should consider. And I think your both like the website and all of your work and what you put in the book
I think it helps us to raise those questions. That's why I think it's useful at a team level.
I think
I can reflect on my own.
But actually a bit like how you said I was a team, we shared the kind of career paths and plans and got feedback.
I think talking about some of these things together in a team might
Just you know.
like, particularly in a high trust team, you might have some really good challenging conversations that might help you to see
impact differently. Um
Benjamin, thank you for helping me see it differently and thank you for spending time with us and our community and helping them to think about it. Where should other than your book, where should I be sending people so they can get more insight from your work?
Yeah, I mean
eighty thousand hours dot org, the website.
Um
Has low I mean, everything on there is free.
And we have not only is there like lots of profiles of different careers and problems you can work on.
But there's also a job board which has about a thousand impactful jobs on these working on these problems.
And we have our podcast on YouTube.
And then there's also one on one advice.
Which is also
So it's there's a limited capacity, but you can apply and that's all free, and then you can speak to someone. So this is especially
If you want to work on
one of these pressing problems and you're say you're
Your mid career and you want to switch.
they could uh see if they can introduce you to anyone in that new
That new problem area.
um who could help you find opportunities to use your skills, your career capital to work on that.
Um
So
Yeah, yeah, take take a look at
All the all those. That's the best reason to go look at a website ever. I absolutely I don't even think you were trying to sell it, but I'm like, that is a definitely brilliant reason. Thank you so much for being here today. Thanks so much.
Thank you so much for listening to today's conversation. I would really love to know
What are your thoughts, what ideas it might have inspired, what actions you might be doing after you have you listened today, please get in touch with us. We're Helen and Sarah at squigglycareers.com. We love your feedback. It's one of the best things that gets into our inbox. So if you've got a couple of minutes, let us know. Also, if you have enjoyed this summer series, please
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where we borrow some brilliance, we tackle some career problems, and hopefully give you some useful advice too.
Bye for now.