#743: Dr. Jane Goodall and Cal Fussman

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4:16 No, I'm just seeing it. A cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal mental skeleton. Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferris. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris Show, where it is my job to sit down with world class performers. From every field imaginable to tease out the habits. routines, favorite books, and so on that you can apply.

4:46 And test in your own lives. This episode is a two for one, and that's because the podcast recently hit its 10th year anniversary, which is insane to think about. And past one billion downloads. To celebrate I've curated some of the best of the best, some of my favourites.

5:03 From more than seven hundred episodes over the last decade. I could not be more excited. To give you these super combo episodes, and internally we've been calling these The super combo episodes. Because my goal is to encourage you to, yes, enjoy the household names, the super famous folks.

5:19 But to also introduce you to lesser known people I consider. Stars. These are people who have transformed my life and I feel like they can do the same for many of you. Perhaps They got lost in a busy news cycle, perhaps you missed an episode.

5:34 Just trust me on this one, we went to great pains to put these pairings together. And for the bios of all guests. You can find that and more at Tim.blog slash combo. And now, without further ado. Please enjoy.

5:49 And thank you. For listening. First up Dr. Jane Goodall English primatologist.

5:56 And anthropologist. Considered the world's foremost expert. On chimpanzees. And founder of the Jane Goodall Institute. And the Roots and Shoots program.

6:06 Building a better tomorrow. By empowering young people. to affect positive change in their communities. You can find doctor Goodall on Twitter and Instagram at Jane Goodall INST.

6:20 I would love just to spend a moment and we don't have to spend a lot of time on this, but Discussing Louis Leakey. And I've read various accounts of how you connected with him, but I'd like to to hear it directly from you.

6:34 And perhaps you could describe what it was that he saw in you, but that initial contact and how that came to be is of Great interest to me. So if you could speak to that, I would appreciate it. Okay, well I'd been staying with my friend Rabout, I suppose. Couple of months.

6:51 And somebody said to me at a party If you're interested in animals, you really should meet your sleeky. He was curator at that time of the Natural History Museum. But of course he's best known as uh A very eminent paleontologist.

7:06 He spent his life. With his Second wife. Mary Leaky. Searching for the

7:12 fossils of Stone Age and Cross Africa. I was very shy back then when I rang the museum. And said I'd love to make an appointment to meet. Doctor Leaky. And a boy said, I'm leaky, what do you want?

7:26 But anyway, you know, I was so passionate. about animals. I anyway I went to see him and he took me all around. He asked me many questions. About the stuffed animals that were there. And I think he was impressed that because I'd read Everything I could about Africa.

7:44 I could answer so many of these questions. Well I Mentioned earlier that boring secretarial course that I did. Two days before I met Leaky.

7:54 His secretary had suddenly quit. He needed a secretary. And there I was. I mean you never know in this life. So I'm suddenly surrounded by People who can answer all my questions about the mammals and the birds and the reptiles, the amphibians.

8:10 The insects, the plants. It was Oh, you asked Lake's what did he see in me? Yeah. A feeling that women made better observers.

8:20 He thought they were more patient. He also wanted somebody to go and study chimpanzees. Because of his interest in human evolution. So The

8:32 Uh early man that he was uncovering. You can tell a lot from up. But whether the creature walks upright and muscle attachments. The where of the truth shows you roughly the kind of diet but

8:45 behavior doesn't possibly say. So he reckoned there was a Ape like human like common ancestor. About six million years ago. Just now generally accepted.

8:57 And uh he thought well if Jane Wayne's behavior and chimps and humans Today that is similar or same. Maybe it came Directly from the common ancestor.

9:09 And has been with us for our long separate evolutionary journeys. In which case he could have a better way of Imagining how His early humans used to behave. So he wanted a mind uncluttered by

9:24 The reductionist thinking of the animal behavior people at the time. It was a very new science. They were anxious to make it a hard science. Which it shouldn't be. And so the fact I hadn't been to college was a plus and the fact that I was a woman was a plus.

9:41 So I was just fishing lucky. He he seems to have picked up. the winning lottery ticket, or at least a a very Formidable combination. Of traits and

9:52 If we take that Mention of patients. Or his belief that in part women make better observers because of More patients. If we flash forward then to you

10:04 Landing in Gombies. Stream National Park, Tanzania, if I'm getting the pronunciation correct. Nat Geo, or maybe not the first, but one of the more recent Nat Geo documentaries about you. Title Jane.

10:19 And In that and also in your writing. I believe it took something like Five months. Of constant effort.

10:27 And Having chimpanzees. Flee from your presence. to finally be What we might call

10:35 Accepted. And I've I've two questions related to that. The first is What do you think Made The difference. Why did they go from fleeing to accepting?

10:46 And second is when you first really had the opportunity to look deeply into a chimpanzee's eyes. What did you see, and just as importantly, what did you feel? Well, the acceptance In the movie it sort of looked just they suddenly accepted me. It wasn't like that. It was very grandeur. And it was

11:07 Partly thanks to this one male who began to lose his fear much ahead of the others. Might called him David Greybeard'cause had a lovely white beard. And Because he began to let me get closer and closer.

11:21 I think If I came to a group in the forest and he was with that group Because they they separate and took You know, separate small groups and sometimes but If he was there, then the others were ready to run, but he was sitting calmly.

11:36 And I suppose that made them feel, well, she can't be so dangerous after all. So Gradually I could get closer. And the first time I came close to a group that didn't run away, I think was One of the proudest moments of my life.

11:51 You know, it made it just in time. For the six months money ran out. So The fact that I'd seen David Graybird use and make tools to pitch the termites. thought to be something only humans were capable of.

12:06 That's what brought the geographic in right in the beginning. Six months after the study began. They agree to Go on funding it. Was David Greybeard the first chimpanzee that you were able to

12:20 Get close enough to to sort of Connect. Eye to eye with? Definitely. What did you see and feel when you had that opportunity?

12:30 Well, I saw that I was looking into the eyes of a thinking Feeling being. And It was Not so surprising as you might think.

12:42 Because I had always felt that animals were thinking, feeling beings. But with the chimpanzee, they're so like us. behaviorally and Biologically. It's

12:53 It's not like looking at another human. It's different and I can't explain. How it's different. But it was a very magical moment. Because

13:03 He looked back. That was the thing. He didn't run, he just sat there. And looked back at me. I would love to uh

13:12 Ask. Questions. About what we might learn and what perhaps you've learned about human nature or even questions that have been raised in your Interactions and observations of chimpanzees.

13:26 And You mentioned it briefly, but it it's hard to overstate just how Incredible And shocking

13:35 And world shattering for many people it was that you observed chimpanzees not just using tools, but constructing tools. For In this case, consuming termites. news around the world.

13:50 You had many other observations. I believe also that you know the belief that chimpanzees were purely vegetarians also you observe not to be the case with their consumption Uh Other primates.

14:03 Exactly. And you noted, and I know this was a real in some eyes a faux pas at the time real personalities and you might have been accused of anthropomorphism and all of these things, but You observe different personalities.

14:17 In uh Different. chimpanzees. And I thought Perhaps we could just start with A story.

14:25 And that is the story of Old Man and Mark Cusano. If I'm getting the pronunciation right. And then I have questions about a few other chimpanzees you personally had. quite a bit of interaction with. Mark we shall know. And um just um

14:41 An island in Line Country in Florida. Um old man had been in medical research lab. Been. Captured from the wild his mother was shot.

14:54 And he was called old man because an infant chimp who's distressed and frightened. They they have wrinkled faces and they huddle and they they don't look very old. And he was lucky. It was about Twel. And

15:08 For some reason he was now used to the lab. And he was put on an island with three females. Two of them from medical research, one from a search. And Mark Cusano was employed to look after them. And he was told.

15:23 Don't go anywhere near them that vicious they hate people. Much stronger than you, they'll kill you. So he threw food. From his little paddle boat onto the island. And began watching them and a baby was born, so old man was the father.

15:40 And he felt. You know, these are such amazing beings. I must have some kind of relationship with them. If I'm to look after them. So it began going closer and closer and one day. He held out a banana in his hand.

15:53 When old man took it, he said I know how you felt when David took a banana from you. When they went on to the island. One day he groomed old man, one day the the They played.

16:06 An old man. No. And they became basically It was a friendship.

16:14 And then One day. Mark slips to be raining. Fell flat on his face. Unfortunately. frighten this infant who is the novel old man's life. The old man used to protect him and carry him and share food.

16:30 Well, the mother hearing her child scream raced and attacked. M biking into his neck. The other two females to support her. Ran in one bit his wrist, one bit his leg. And Mark thought well how on earth am I going to get away from them?'Cause they're much stronger than us.

16:48 He looked up. He saw old man thundering across the island with a furious scowl on his face. And He thought his time had come to die or come to protect. His precious infant.

17:00 What The old man did was to pull those three screaming released females off. Mark. And keep them away while Mark threat himself to safety. And I met Mark when he came out of hospital. He said

17:13 No question. Old man saved my life. And so you know, I always think if A chimpanzee who's been abused by people. can reach out to help a human friend in time of need.

17:26 Then surely we with our greater capacity. Compassion. Can do the same. The chimpanzees in that time of need. Thank you for telling that story. To what extent

17:37 If we take an example From your personal experience And I know. Very little about Frodo. But Frodo seems to have been

17:48 Amongst the chimpanzees you had exposure to One of the more aggressive But I'd love to hear you speak to this and how would you explain

17:58 the variance among chimpanzees was it also in appear to be innate? Did it seem to stem from some type of trauma? How did you Think about that and perhaps Frodo specifically. Well They're all different. Some are much more aggressive than others, just like we are.

18:16 And Pronto. Once. Spoiled. He was a spoiled rat. His mother was the highest ranking

18:24 Female. Time. Pete P. He had one older brother. Who always came to his defence, as did Fifi.

18:33 And so he always got his own way. And It was a real bully, so It's with two young ones playing. Same age as him, perhaps.

18:43 and he came to join them, they would stop playing immediately because they knew If he entered the game, he'd suddenly become rough and caused one of them. Be hurt. So it wasn't just Humans feel the systems, and especially me.

18:57 that he targeted with his Displays hitching over, dragging. I got it worst of all, I was stamped upon and But he was not trying. really to hurt me. He was trying to assert his dominance.

19:11 And I guess they don't realise quite how strong they are. I mean, if he wanted to kill me, I wouldn't be speaking to you now, that's for sure. Is the assertion of dominance And I don't know how much of this is conscious and I don't know how one would even know, but Is that

19:28 Is that a conscious or potentially conscious political Maneuver. to get better access to resources and so on, or is it really just a conditioned behavior based on, as you said, being spoiled. And

19:43 that just being some type of primitive drive that they have and perhaps even we have. Really because Prodo's brother before him became the top ranking male. And Troyd had a very different It was reflective.

19:59 um he became dominant not through aggression. But through being smart, some of the males. get to the top by share aggression, by bullying. By swaggering about waving their arms. They remind me so much of some human politicians. It's not true. But

20:15 There are other males. Well Get to the top by Skillfully forming alliances. And they only tackle a higher ranking male when their ally is there to support them.

20:26 And then there are some who just persist, they persist in Charging towards groups of superior males who are grooming each other. Startling them so that they run away.

20:38 And in the end this was Goblin. In the end. I think the other male so well he Just going to go on doing this. All right. Let's just let him get to the top. We don't care anymore. That's how it seemed. And he ten years. And he was small. And he wasn't very aggressive at all.

20:55 I recall a few Years ago speaking with a friend of mine who I consider to be a good father, a good parent, and I asked him what advice he would have. For someone like me. Considering Having children.

21:08 I have none of my own yet. And His advice he had a number of pieces of advice, but his first was Teach your children to be optimists.

21:18 And it seemed like a precursor or a prerequisite. for so many other things. And I'm looking at a time article. Time magazine article that is that you wrote in two thousand two.

21:31 And I just want to read one paragraph and then ask you to elaborate or speak to it. Here's the paragraph. The greatest danger to our future is apathy. We cannot expect those living in poverty and ignorance to worry about saving the world. For those of us able to read this magazine.

21:48 And my Side note or listen to this podcast. It is different. We can do something to preserve our planet. You may be overcome, however, by feelings of helplessness. You are just one person in a world of six billion. How can your actions make a difference?

22:01 Best you say to leave it to decision makers and so you do nothing. Can we overcome apathy, yes, but only if we have hope. And I'd love to hear you speak to that and also just to how you cultivate hope. Whether that's in yourself or the people you speak to.

22:17 Well, you know, I have my reasons for hope, which I'm always sharing with people. But This thing up. people feeling helpless because they don't know what to do. This message of our use programs.

22:29 Yeah. Every individual makes a difference. And You know. If it's just you

22:36 picking up trash, if it's just you're saving water. Then it wouldn't make Slightest bit of difference. But because people are becoming more aware all around the world. Then the not just you but

22:50 Thousands, millions of people. Picking up trash and saving water. So The message again being Think about the consequences.

23:00 Of the small choices you make every day. Where do you eat? Where did it come from? Did it farm the environment? Was it cruel to animals like being kind of bombing? Is it cheap because of child slave leave or somewhere? Make ethical choices.

23:15 And because millions of people are making ethical choices. We're moving in the right direction. All of our young people, you know, they're influencing their parents and their grandparents. I know that because the parents tell me. So You know, my weakness hope, number one is the youth, as I've said.

23:32 Because They're just so inspiring. And secondly To stop. By saying it's very

23:40 Bizarre. But what makes us more different from chimps and other animals? It's this explosive development of our intellect. I mean Look at what's happening now with just social media is one example.

23:53 You and I talking went far apart. We're reaching millions of people. I mean it it's quite amazing, isn't it, when you think about it. So how that this most intellectual creature is destroying its only home? So there seems to be this disconnect. Between the clever brain and the human heart.

24:11 Just love and compassion. Um You know, we're thinking about how does this help me now? Incident. How does it affect future generations?

24:21 So now we're beginning to use our brains as scientists to to come up with more and more sophisticated technology. It will help us. be better I think live in more harmony with the natural world. If government would sponsor

24:37 clean green energy rather than land. Succumbing to their ties. With the oil and gas industry. We could be more or less off the grid in many countries today. China and India are moving in that direction rapidly.

24:52 And UAE as well. But Each one of us can use our brains to think about the Re environmental footprint we make each day.

25:01 And then there's the resilience of nature. I tell people stories about Areas that were totally destroyed, rivers Lakes. Lake Erie was so polluted. That it could. Oh yeah. Mr.

25:14 And now there's fish swimming in it. Because people can't. Animals on the brink of extinction. Or being given another jobs. We just have to save the habitats.

25:25 You have to change the mindset. companies that want to The story of stories to make money out of the wood. Or

25:35 Destroy for instance. Okay. Members on the ground to make more money. But then We've got to sort

25:43 poverty because as you quolier. If you're really poor. What can you do except? To grow the food, to feed your family, eat the cheapest junk food.

25:55 Because it You've got to do it to live. We have to solve poverty. And the unsustainable lifestyle to the rest of us. But you know, my last reason I think

26:05 It's this indomitable human spirit. The people who tackle what seems impossible. And we'll give up. And they may die. As a result of that conviction.

26:16 But in the end they succeed. You also seem To be Aside from an expert storyteller. Very good at using

26:26 Imagery or symbols and sometimes stories themselves are symbols, but Could you describe Mr. H. Who's Mr. H?

26:37 Mr. H was given to me Twenty eight years ago. By a man called Gary Horn, which is why he's Mr. H. Yummy went blind when he was twenty one. decided to become a magician.

26:51 Everybody said but Gary. You can't be a magician if you're blind. Those shows for children. Well I

26:58 Watch him three or four times now. And Of course he Sets his props up ahead of time. Children don't know he's blind.

27:06 And at the end he'll tell them. And he'll say. Something might go wrong in your life, you can't tell. If it does, don't give up. There's always a way forward.

27:16 And he does scuba diving, cross country skiing, skydiving, but I think most amazing. He's taught himself to paint. And When he gave me mister H he thought he was giving me a stuffed chimp. But Mr. H has a tail.

27:32 And I made him hold the tail. He said, Never mind. Take him with you. And you know I'm with you in spirit. So he's one of those Examples of the indomitable human spirit.

27:44 doing skydiving when you're blind. Teaching yourself to paint. And they said picture in this he's done a little book called Blind Artist. Which you can only get on Amazon.

27:55 And As a portrait of Mr H. He's never seen him. He's only felt him. And it's unbelievable.

28:04 And Mr H If I'm not mistaken has been many places with you. I don't know if you still have Mr. H, but Liga I have. Um with me. If I forget to take him to a lecture, there's sure to be a child who bursts into tears that I wanted to touch Mr H'cause I told him the inspiration rupts all.

28:26 You said that your friend told you to teach your children to be optimistic. It's really You can't teach them that. But you can Tell stories and

28:37 Those stories about people and encourage them and support them. I mean so many parents have set things on what they want their child to be. And the lesson I get from my mother is Nobody was thinking about going to Africa and living with animals when I wanted to.

28:54 Except a few explorers, you know. wanted to shoot them and put them in museums. But When everybody laughed at me and said I'd never get there, I was just a girl, it was a war, we didn't have money. Mum said if you really want something like this, you're going to have to work really, really hard.

29:12 Take advantage of every opportunity. And if you don't give up You'll find a way to do that or something. Something else that you really, really want to do. That

29:23 Wisdom retake. and share with young people. everywhere, especially in disadvantaged communities. And I wish Mom knew how many people have said Jane, thank you. You taught me that because you did it, I can do it too.

29:37 I'd be curious to ask If you had a billboard, metaphorically speaking That could get a message out to Billions of people. It could be

29:49 A word, a phrase, a question, an image. Really anything. What might you put On that billboard. Remember that you make a difference every single day.

30:03 Mm. Perfect. Yeah. could not be more perfect. Okay.

30:09 Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show. This episode is brought to you by Wealthfront. There is a lot happening in the US and global economies right now. A lot. That's an understatement. Are we in a recession? Is it a bear market? What's going to happen with inflation? So many questions, so few answers. I can't tell the future. Nobody can, but I can tell you about a great place to earn more on your savings. And that's Wealthfront. Wealthfront is an app that helps you save and invest your money. And right now you can earn 5% APY, that's the annual percentage yield, with the Wealthfront Cash Account. That's more than 10 times more interest than if you left your money in a savings account at the average bank, according to FDIC.gov.

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31:21 Cal Fussman New York Times best selling author. Rider at large at Esquire. International speaker. And host of the Big Questions with Cal Fussman podcast.

31:33 Find Cal on Twitter and Instagram. At Calfusman Cal, welcome to the show. Thank you. I have arrived. You have arrived, and I'm so excited to have you here because we've gotten to know each other

31:46 A bit over the last however many months and It's been such a joy because as I've Tried to delve into this craft of Asking questions. And crafting conversation.

31:58 I've realized there's a lot to it. And I've been a fan of your work for so many years. And The subtleties are just so powerful and I thought that This time we could turn the tables. And I could interrogate you in public.

32:13 I love asking you questions about your process and you've been so generous with your time in terms of Reviewing some of my episodes, providing feedback. So first and foremost, thank you. For your work and for All of the help. I'm delighted, you're good.

32:30 You're good. And so this is one of these Episodes where I'm a little self conscious because I know that I have a very unusual Memento like

32:45 Sometimes non-chronological approach to interviews. And for that I'll apologize in advance, but we can do a postgame analysis afterwards. So

32:57 Perhaps we could just start with something that We were discussing before we hit record, so we were talking about the live event. That was here in LA at the Troubadour. And we were doing a bit of analysis what went well, what didn't go as well as planned and so on.

33:12 And uh I mentioned that I suppose due to also some insecurities of a sort That I try to when I do these rare live events, if it's say two hours long, I'll stay for an additional two or three hours and do Q and A or something like that. And you said that's straight out of Quincy Jones's book. And so I I know this is an unusual place to start, but maybe you could just

33:31 Provide that anecdote because it seems like you have an endless trove of of these types of anecdotes. But why Quincy Jones? Quincy Jones will go to a book signing. There would be long lines of people. And he will Not

33:46 Sign his name and move him on next. He will stop Ask everyone who they are, and Engage in a conversation. And then write a personal note.

34:00 In his book. To them. And The line may be around the block, he'll be there till three in the morning. Keeping the people of barns noble.

34:09 Open. Because he wants to make it a joyous experience for everybody. So bravo. You followed the master. Inadvertently. This story, of course, if we rewind the clock. begins at the beginning. And where did you grow up? I actually am ashamed to admit I don't No.

34:28 The Childhood background. Where did you up? I'm born in Brooklyn. And

34:33 Move to Yonkers, New York. Where I did Second grade and third grade. And That's where I had

34:44 And I think back on it, like a pivotal moment. Asking questions. Because that time second grade was the time that I was sitting in Miss Jaffe's

34:57 Classroom. And she Came into the room, she was out for some reason and When she came in. You could look at her and know that

35:07 Something just happened. That I don't know. But it's different from anything I've ever seen before. And this was November.

35:18 Nineteen sixty three. And it was Miss Jaffey who told the class that President Kennedy had been shot. And so We all

35:28 Got sent home. Found out that he would die. And I really would love To see myself on video tape.

35:39 Like that night. Because I knew Man. Something is going on here. They explained to me that Linda Johnson was a vice president.

35:51 And he was now become the new president. And I'm thinking, man. What must it be like? To be that guy. What is he feeling?

36:02 Here he was. I know he probably wanted to be the president. But he couldn't be the president. And then he was the vice president and now the president gets killed. And he gets to be the president. So

36:16 I picked up piece of paper and a pencil and I just wrote to Lyndon Johnson. You wrote a letter to Lyndon Johnson. What does it feel like? And about six months later.

36:29 I got a letter back. That's incredible. And it was from his Personal Secretary Juanita D. Roberts And the cool thing about it was

36:39 The first sentence was Thank you for the friendly thought in writing. So I don't know what I wrote him. But Somehow I must have tried to make him feel comfortable that this question was coming. And then the second question was

36:55 In answer to your query Ha And What that said was she was treating me like I was legit.

37:04 Yeah. You know, I was I had just turned adult. Exactly. And you know, when you did the interview with Ed Norton He talked about Having a mentor in high school. Who treated him

37:18 Like an adult. That's right. And that is what that letter felt like. To me. And Only now.

37:27 When people are starting to ask me questions, did this come to me? But That's when I realize that asking questions is is kinda natural for me. So that was in second grade. Second grade. Now I have to ask, when you wrote the letter Something you back to second grade.

37:43 And was it written on paper that had the dotted line in between the intact lines? For the lowercase letters? What type of do you re do you recall what kind of paper it was on? I don't know. It's probably on loose leaf paper if I was making a guess. I wish, you know, I was talking to the historian Robert Carrow. Who wrote volumes about Lyndon Johnson. Also we're at the Power Broker, am I right?

38:07 That's right. Incredible book. Exactly. And Here this guy has spent Decades. Knowing everything about Lyndon Johnson is possible.

38:17 And I'm telling him this story. And he's like getting goosebumps when I say Juanita D. Roberts. You got a letter from Honey D Roberts! And He started asking me all these questions about the letter and where where it could be and how I

38:35 Sent it. And I realized as he was doing it Yeah. He was made to be a historian. Ha ha ha.

38:43 Nobody else in the world would gotten that. Hi over the words Juanita D. Roberts. But some people are just born with the proclivity to do certain things. What do you think? Even if it's

38:59 God given talent. What makes you Or gives you a gift for Questions. I think Part of that

39:07 has to do with the evolution. as an interviewer, as a journalist, because As we talk it through You'll see that I interviewed differently when I was, say, eighteen.

39:22 than when I was twenty four. And differently uh In my forties then I was When I was twenty five. So it really is like a lifelong voyage.

39:33 of learning about questions and reactions. It's only when I started to think back. on that first letter did I realize okay this is I guess it would sort of be like being a basketball player and you know that you're born with big hands.

39:50 If I go up for a dunk, I can grip the ball with one hand. Carmelo Anthony can't. It's like a big secret. He can't. Get his hands around the

39:59 The basketball. He's great. But It's Some people are just born with big hands. Some people don't have big hands.

40:09 And I'm only now starting to realize, okay, I I was kinda born to do this. Did Parents. facilitate that and cultivate that in any way?

40:21 Or was it not It was a nature More than nurture in the household. Maybe they did in that My dad

40:30 Loved sports. And I grew up in the sixties. At a time where Muhammad Ali came into play. He was my childhood hero.

40:39 And In a some sense That was the start of it. Because he was more Than my hero just because

40:49 He was the heavyweight champ of the world. And He could dance and make sure nobody ever hit him. And then when he wanted to hit you He could hit you sixteen times before you even blink.

41:00 And was more than the fact that he could Make predictions with poetry and make you always laugh. His actions. Made you ask questions. He would take his Olympic gold medal.

41:15 And Throw it in the Ohio River. And it would make you wonder. Hold it. How is it that a black guy can

41:25 go win a gold medal in Australia. And come back. After representing his country, And not be able. Just set it up.

41:34 He would Defy the government? And Refuse draft induction, wouldn't go into the army.

41:46 And Basically say, Hey, I ain't got nothing against no Viet Cong. And he would make you think hey. What is going on over there, In Vietnam.

41:56 So that was a huge, huge part of my childhood. Did you Have any particular career aspiration, what did you want to be when you were a kid, say from Second grade onward.

42:09 Were there any particular Professions that you knew you wanted to go after? Two things. I wanted to See my face.

42:18 Over a column in a big city newspaper. And I wanted to write a magazine story. About Muhammad Ali. Ha ha ha.

42:27 Wow. Very prescient. No, I knew that. I knew what I wanted to do. Only later. After I'd done it so quickly?

42:37 Did I realize What am I gonna do now? Which We can get to. It's you mentioned

42:44 eighteen and twenty four, so two very specific ages. Take me to say eighteen and then twenty four. and contrast your two styles, but if you could tell us where you were. At those two points also. Sure.

42:57 So When I grew up I grew up thinking interview was meet the press. Grew up thinking it was what happened in a lock room after a sporting event. So I knew in order to achieve my dreams that

43:11 I need to go to journalism school. I asked around. And found out University of Missouri had one of the best So that's where I went. And

43:22 I learn to ask who, what, when, where, and why And went through the whole journalism cycle. This was also an interesting time. It was a time of Watergate. So Journalists.

43:35 We're seen. Uh The highest point. That uh. Maybe they've ever been.

43:41 It was really cool to be a journalist. A journalist actually brought down the president when they Caught him lying. So it was a great time. And I went into sports.

43:54 So basically After I graduated, four months after I graduated. I was sitting ringside when Muhammad Ali won the heavyweight championship for the third time. A year after that. If you lived in Saint Louis and you open the post dispatch sports section.

44:09 You saw my face over a column. And the year after that I went to the big time. New York. An amazing magazine called Inside Sports got started up.

44:20 How old were you at the time? I was twenty Twenty two by then. And Basically this magazine.

44:29 was really unique. It was Set up in the day that Sports Illustrated was As big as it gets. And it was set up to compete with Sports Illustrated. And it brought in all these great writers. And so I

44:42 Yeah. Going to the bar at night. And sitting next to Hunter Thomson, the gonzo journalist, would be throwing back shots. The next morning I'd be getting up and going on a plane to Pittsburgh. Hold on one second. You did shots with Hunter S Thomson. Yeah, yeah. Okay. We're gonna come back to that. Please continue.

45:01 This is Oh man. It was this magazine attracted all these writers. And the guy who started it was a guy named John A. Walsh. Who went on to start sports center for ESPN. So

45:16 He just had One of the most amazing things I'd ever seen at the time. I didn't really even know what a Rollodex was. And I walked into Inside Sports

45:29 For the first time it was a Friday afternoon. And I call them up. And I said Hey. Like if I come into New York

45:38 To work. I'm not asking for a job, just Make sure I don't starve. He said, Come on.

45:45 So I I show up to the office at like four o'clock. And there is Two guys. With

45:53 A dolly. Stacked with beer. Yeah. Just like case after case of beer. And

46:00 I got in the elevator right behind the dolly. They hit the same floor number that I needed to go to. And they just rolled it out into the offices of Inside Sports. And I said, This is where I need to be. And This magazine attracted guys like David Halberstam, who was a Pulitzer Prize winning writer. The best of the best.

46:23 And Basically I got to sit next to all of them. I was only a kid, I was twenty two. And every night everybody would go across the street to a bar called the cowboy. Tony the bartender was behind the bar. And

46:37 At the at the time I had like I had no money. So They would put out these little h d'oeuvres. Number people that w that was like w where my dinner would be if The guys with expense accounts weren't going out like the mixed nuts and olives. That was dinner.

46:55 But it was great. Because you're sitting next to Frank DeFord, who was like the big sports writer of his day. A guy named Gary Smith came to work there. He was a national magazine award winner. For many, many years. And it was just

47:10 A blast. It was the best time. Sounds incredible. And then Like

47:17 A lot of artistic successes. It was not a commercial success. And like a lot of startups, it went belly up. Sounds like the Paris Review and many, many others. There you go. And so here I am in New York. And and basically I've now

47:31 Achieved everything I set out to achieve when I was a kid. And I'm looking around saying, what am I gonna do now? Where am I gonna go? I had no idea. Inside sports was not a job.

47:45 It was an experience. It was an an event every evening. Who's coming tonight? And I didn't know what to do, so I I called up my mom and dad. And I said, You know.

47:57 I think I'm gonna take some time off and travel. My mom was always Really supportive said, Oh cow, that's wonderful. And little did she know when I said it. that I wasn't coming back for ten years.

48:10 But I didn't know it either. I just Bought a ticket. To go over to Europe. Left with a few guys.

48:18 And that started a ten year Odyssey. of Cal going around the world. Okay. Okay. Let's say pause for a second. I want to do some backtracking here. Okay. So The First question.

48:32 Then I have not forgotten about Hunter S. Thompson, but When you said I please correct me if I'm getting this wrong, but I don't need a job I just don't want to starve. And he said, Come on in, why did he give you such a warm welcome? He had actually reached out to me. And again, this went back to University of Missouri journalism. That's where he had gone to school.

48:50 So I like and I found all through my travels this school and its network I was always linked to them in in some way. And You knew who was really good from that school.

49:05 Everybody knew it. And so If I found out that somebody was doing really good work and they were an editor and I knew they went to the University of Missouri. It's an easy phone call for me to make.

49:19 And it's interesting'cause I didn't make those Calls. Often because there was a Like a nexus of the People bumped into people and you were

49:31 Verdad to the right. Place. And so When inside sports Folded ultimately one of the editors there.

49:40 Got the job at the Washington Post Sunday magazine. But When I was traveling around the world, I basically I didn't really write. And uh I've I've so many questions about the travel the

49:53 preceding contrast. So if we looked at say your How you interviewed and ask questions when you are at the tail end of your first Professional gig. And then at the tail end of inside sports.

50:08 What changed? Nothing really changed there. Basically the idea was to get the information you needed For A story to fill out a story. And so Back in that day.

50:22 I know it's hard for sports writers to believe it. Because they asked me to speak at Colleges in front of journalism schools. And In the seventies.

50:33 Women's sports like got No coverage at all. They would beg you. To go Into

50:42 to go to their games, go into their lock rooms, whatever you want it. I was talking to university in Nebraska Journalism school. They can't even interview women's volleyball players. In

50:55 a very relaxed fashion. They have to go through the sports information office and They won't be able to ask like personal questions. So it's a completely different time. When I would Go out.

51:08 to do a story, I might spend like a week Two weeks with somebody. And now that just doesn't happen because of all the proliferation of media and everybody's asking For that time. So it's pretty much

51:23 Shut down. So basically you got to hang with people. And Questions.

51:31 Basically filled out the story. But For me it was very different than the next stage,'cause that first stage was very Who, what, when, where, and why and what Might have been underneath what was your childhood like?

51:45 And it filled out a sports story. The next step it started when I was about twenty three or twenty four. What is it? Completely different. And that was

51:57 Just to place it in the timeline that was before you left? Oh no, this was the moment I left Inside Sports shut down. And There was actually like a run on the bank. Seems common people to get their last checks.

52:15 And Right after that. Was when I decided to start travelling. And that's where Interviewing change for me forever.

52:24 Two quick questions before we get there. Shots and having drinks with Hunter S. Thompson. It was fantastic. He was a very funny guy. And it was all

52:36 Anecdotes there were bunch of people in the bar, everybody was telling stories. It's completely natural. What's kinda interesting About my memory of it. is later on I interviewed Johnny Depp.

52:51 Who played Hunter Thompson. And he just Reached into This Vegetable plate.

53:00 That was in front of a hotel. Jad. Okay. and pulled out a carrot. And put it in his mouth the way Hunter Thomson had like he was smoking like those long cigarettes.

53:12 And he became Hunter S Thompson. It was wild and he he said, Yeah. It comes out in me every now and then. The thing about Hunter, as Thomas did you think about him almost as a caricature?

53:23 But like at the bar he was like A regular guy just telling stories. I remember him telling stories of like being a bowling writer. In San Juan, Puerto Rico. And we're gonna be laughing about things like that. So it was very human.

53:38 The conversation wasn't with The caricature of Hunter Thomson It was with the guy. And when you went out to drink with the guys, hopefully with the expense accounts What was your drink of choice? Did you have a go to drink?

53:51 Back then was before I knew anything about wine. Back then it was I think Guinness

54:00 Or black and tan. Or maybe uh Gin and Sonic. Those were the three things you know one time I remember this really crazy. You wanna know why inside sports went out of business. They had one of the photographers

54:16 Who had worked with sports illustrated in the past. And so I was sent out on a story with this guy and this guy was saying, Oh, I gotta show you how to use an expense account, I could see. You're like very

54:29 Young novice here. And like before we do any work, he's straight to the bar and I'm saying, Like, are you sure like maybe we should go out and like interview with some No, no, no. You know, I think we need to have some green chartreuse.

54:45 Oh Lord. When And I This guy must have knocked the barbell. And his point was look.

54:53 This is how we do it at Sports Illustrated. Like if you don't run up a bar bill like this, you know, nobody's gonna think you're big time. Ha ha. Sounds fear and loathing in Las Vegas. Yeah, it was a little like that. It was all I guess

55:10 Day the day event. And I was like meeting Yeah. athletes that I grew up watching on T V and talking to these sports writers and

55:22 It was one of those times that comes around once in a life. And then When it's gone you can never really have it again.'Cause Part of it is your naivete making it. So grand.

55:35 And then it was over. The magazine was dead? And oh man, like At the time I thought I got another like fifty, sixty years to live. What am I gonna do? So how did you decide on travel?

55:47 I didn't know what to do. And I had met when I was in St. Louis. A woman from France. She came from Montpazier.

55:57 And she says, Oh, like you have to come Visit Montpazier and pick the grapes. So in my mind I always thought I've got to get to Montpellier. And so

56:09 We bought a ticket, bought a cheap ticket. To Iceland Air. They would Land you in Iceland and then fly you into Luxembourg. And

56:20 The idea, I guess, was to get you to somehow stay in Iceland. It still is. They still sell it. It's like the stopover destination. Stay for a few days, please. And you know what? People should because One of the Playboy center fold photographers. Told me.

56:38 That that was one of the Best. places that he'd ever been to in terms of Like meeting women. He said it was like outrageous.

56:47 You'd go there on a Saturday night. And Everybody knew everybody, but by four in the morning, like people were naked doing cartwheels on top of the bar. Like who would have thought of it from Iceland? Iceland, you know, that's a limited number of activities if you're there depending on the time of the year. But I actually Went to Iceland for the first time with my family to see the Aurora Borealis.

57:10 Uh Two winters ago. Just glorious. Fantastic. Entirely mystical. Word defying.

57:19 experience. It really was fantastic. So that's that's maybe the other more brochure friendly Inside of Island. But yeah, a lot of booze. A lot of booze. A lot of booze. If if you're telling me And elves. They like elves and gnomes also. But but No, that sounds like a magical moment in your life. It was. It was.

57:39 What did you have like a notion? Of what it would be. And then did it. Top it. Like by ten times? Well, the backstory not to turn this into well, I guess it is the Tim Ferris show. So here we are. But the to digress into my own stuff for a minute is my mom had always talked about wanting to see

57:58 The Northern Lights before she passed on. And this came up many, many times. And eventually I was like, fuck it. Why haven't we gone to see the Northern Lights? Let's figure it out. And that's how the trip Came about. And in my mind, of course, the image was informed by the photos that I had seen.

58:15 And it turns out that the colours that are captured by all of the photographs or the equipment that I've seen are very different when you see the phenomenon in real life with your own eyes. And it's just the most ghostly

58:31 Fantastic. Meaning like phantasm like experience that I've ever had visually without Eight of plants. It it uh we really just

58:45 got the Willy Wonka golden ticket because we showed up and we were there for I wanna say ten days, which is important because you could have few days of cloud cover. And if you're only there for a night or two nights. you could go all the way out into the middle of nowhere in Iceland or Norway for that matter or other places and never see it. But we saw it, I wanna say like

59:04 Seven out of ten nights. It was unbelievable. So it exceeded all expectations. It was really Really a trip to remember. I just gotta ask you one more question, and I like to I what was your mom's What does your mom's face look like? when she got the view that she wanted to have. Uh kid in a candy store or the the description that came to mind first was

59:30 Like a baby who opens their eyes and sees like their favorite mobile above them, like just that completely dazzled. look where there's nothing else in the world that exists for them in that moment, but just the pure joy of that. Experience? It was great. I mean, one of the most gratifying things for me, certainly, that I've ever done for my family, which makes me feel like a bad son, but For saying it.

59:53 That it took me a while that it took me that long, but It was a great experience. I will say for those people listening who are thinking about it. When I say there are very limited activities, I really mean it in Iceland. And uh we stayed at this place called Hotel. I think they pronounce it, but it's Ranga R A N G A, which is in the middle of nowhere. And if you do go Two things to note. It's dark all the time.

1:00:16 And number two. There are activities that you can pay for, but they tend to be on the expensive side. So you can take like a helicopter over live volcanoes, which actually was Phenomenal. Or you can go.

1:00:28 Say snowmobiling, et cetera, but they all tend to be on the pricey side. So you do need to check your budget before you sign up for something like that. Um Yeah, it was glorious. But The so Iceland. So you got a cheap ticket on Iceland Air.

1:00:41 Cheap ticket on Iceland Air and landed in Luxembourg and I was with a bunch of friends. And how many friends? Let's see, there were Very interesting. I had

1:00:52 I mentioned one, his name was Gary Smith. But for these purposes I'm just gonna say there was A Yeah.

1:01:01 And a a friend who was Portly. Such an underused adjective. Yeah. And

1:01:11 I I'm completely like these are my best friends. Okay. The skinny guy. The portly guy. And The skinny guy.

1:01:21 Was just coming off A divorce. And basically felt like his whole life had been constricted in In this

1:01:30 Box around Wilming, Delaware. And Wanted to go out and just see the world. See whatever. W whatever was out there and of course

1:01:41 My eyes are open to this because I didn't know what I was gonna do or where I was gonna go, but I want to see the world too. Mont Pazier, let's go pick the grapes. And then the Portly friend Was A guy who was kinda like the mayor.

1:02:00 of his job. And the mayor of his city in terms of if you go to the bar in St. Louis He's a fixture. Everybody loves him. Knows him. And it's

1:02:14 The bar, the restaurant, everything is Very kind of fixed. The mic was always his, or he could hold court. Holding court, but even more than that, it was You knew

1:02:26 If you were in Saint Louis, you knew if you went to Llewellyn's bar. Uh Eight thirty. You are gonna see him. And

1:02:35 Accordingly, You know, where he was gonna have dinner is only one of a few places If you wasn't at one, you can go to another. You know the book story walked into The place across the street where we got chocolates.

1:02:48 So he lived on Sort of a ritual. So now The three of us are let loose In Europe.

1:02:58 Now the Portly guys only got like Ten days he's on vacation from his job. The skinny guy who'd been working at Inside Sports with me He's got some time now. And I'm just

1:03:10 Kinda walking around with my eyes. open wondering where this is all gonna take me. So We go to this mountainous town we end up in a mountainous town in Italy. It had two names.

1:03:24 Because these countries would get involved in wars and then Sometimes they would would be wherever the winner was They were named, so I remember the the German

1:03:36 Sounding name was Dorf Kiro. And it had a huge mountain And we found out that on this mountain Ezra Pound, the poet.

1:03:46 had lived in this castle. So the skinny guy is like all excited. Gotta go see Ezra Pounds Castle. So we gotta Take a hike up to this mountain.

1:03:57 And Portly guys coming along and we're having a great time. We're Talking in the Breathtaking scenery. And we get to this castle and we meet some people and they Say oh.

1:04:09 If you would just keep going over this mountain. You will have an Unforgettable experience. There is a farmer there. That is living you literally will go back to the eighteenth century.

1:04:22 That's how his farmers living. Just Keep on going over the mountain. and just walking down this trail Not many people go over the mountain, but if you do, you will find this farm in

1:04:34 It will put you up for the night. Sounds like the beginning of a dirty joke. And so We start to get up to the top of the mountain.

1:04:43 And now it's like getting darker and darker and darker. And Maybe it's eight o'clock. I don't I d don't know what time it is, but we've reached like the peak. And now we almost can't even see where we're walking. But skinny guy knows.

1:04:59 If we get Down this mountain we're gonna have an experience like no other, and that's what he was wired to do. And the poorly guys is saying, Hey Like. Benicini is being served.

1:05:12 Down in the restaurant. And They both look at me. Say, okay, what are we doing?

1:05:21 And What do you think I did? Oh, this is a toughie. I wanna say that you that you went for the village, but by the Very fact that you asked me What would you do?

1:05:32 And you love both of these guys, and you know that one guy really wants to go over the mountain, the other guy really wants the better. I say you can always get fettuccine, it's not going away. But Easy to say is the armchair. listener of stories, as is the case right now. What did you do? Well I looked at'em both.

1:05:50 And then I just Realize look. If something were to happen. Like going down. I'm gonna regret it.

1:05:59 And I knew in that moment You know what? There's gonna be a lot of those moments where I'm heading over the m that was a moment I knew I'm going over the mountain. Not tonight.

1:06:11 I'm gonna make sure my portly friend is taken care of. He eats his fettuccine In a few days he's getting on a plane, he's gonna go back home. But after that I'm going over the mountain. And that's

1:06:24 Would set off the chip. And it became Completely Addictive. Because

1:06:34 I woke up every morning. not knowing what was gonna happen. And then you ask before, okay, well well where does the interviewing shift? So What happened w was I had hardly any money.

1:06:51 And I would go to a bus station or a train station. And I would just walk up and say Where's Where's the next train leave, Adam? Where's it headed? And they would say a name, I'd say, Okay, I want to take it.

1:07:04 So I would buy the ticket. Destination had no meaning to me whatsoever. What had meaning to me was I never been there before. And I'm gonna take this trip down the aisle.

1:07:17 The trip down the aisle. was where all the stakes were. Because As I'm going down that aisle, I've gotta look For an empty seat.

1:07:28 Next to somebody Who seems interesting. Somebody I can trust. Somebody who might be able to to trust me. Because and the stakes are high.

1:07:38 Because I know That at the end of that ride, wherever it was going That person had to invite me to their home. Because I had no money to Spend night after night in a hotel. I was gonna ask you how you

1:07:53 paid for the trip. So it was just savings based until It was Extinguished? Well, there was very there's very little money. I'm trying to let you know that the stakes that were involved when I got on that train it was not

1:08:07 It was like An athletic event. Where you were going out and You had to get A roof over your head that night.

1:08:15 And I'll t I'll tell you how seriously I took this and I'm gonna tell you a story after this. Which shows you What I learned. I'm walking down that aisle. And I see an empty seat next to a beautiful woman.

1:08:28 Right? I look at her hands. No ring. She's looking at me. She's smiling at me.

1:08:35 She could be a supermodel. I swear that I walked Bright on by. Because there was no way she was taking me home. There was no way she was taking me home. Now nobody can see me, but if you saw me, you would know she

1:08:50 The supermodel was not taking me home. Hey, you know, in fairness, Billy Joel got Christy Brinkley. So no no no offense to Billy Joel, but he and I'm not comparing you to Billy Joel, I think you're a very handsome man. But Just to say. I'll tell you a story about this. I'll tell you about this. That I I came

1:09:10 Two later. Regret that. Alright, so This is years later. And I get set up

1:09:17 Working at Esquire where I do this what I've learned column. And I get set up do an interview with Petra Nemkova, the supermodel. And I'm waiting for it. It's supposed to arrive at like eight o'clock or something and and she's she's late.

1:09:32 So I'm sitting there waiting for her. And then she sits down and we start talking. We have this amazing conversation. I People may not know, but she was in Thailand when that tsunami hit. In like a bungalow.

1:09:45 With her. Best friend. who basically lost his life and she was swept away by the tsunami. and narrowly survived. This is an amazing story. Took an hour and a half just to tell the tsunami story.

1:10:00 And she's telling me these great stories and we're really hitting it off. An interview is supposed to go for an hour and a half, like we're at four hours. And it's not an interview anymore. I feel like completely connected to her. The way I would have been had I

1:10:16 Met her on a bus or a train. And I said to her, I said, Petra, I I really I'm gonna tell you something. I apologize. And she said, What for? And I said, Because

1:10:26 All those years Those ten years I was traveling around the world. If the MTC Who's next to you? I would walked right on by you.

1:10:37 Just because you were good looking. And she had a very amazing reaction. She grabbed me by the hand and squeezed my hand. And she said, Well don't worry, Cal. Tonight I sat next to you.

1:10:51 Which is very cool. But it made me realize And this is a This is really if you're a good guy. Who's a little scared to approach that woman?

1:11:02 You should remember that story. Because They want to be treated normally. And I was talking to another actress about this and she really started riding me. She said, Okay, so you don't take that seat, and now some asshole takes it, and I gotta put up with that asshole for the next hour and a half. Thank you very much, Cal.

1:11:24 Ha ha. So you walked by this woman When you got on the train. Walk down the aisle, you choose survival and housing. Over

1:11:35 The perspective. Walk by the supermodel. And I'm looking looking down the car and okay. That grandmother. With no teeth.

1:11:46 Eating the crackers out of her purse. There's the winner. So walk up. Sit down next to the grandma. Let's say we're in Hungary. And this happened in many cultures.

1:12:00 But For the sake of the story, and this happened in Hungary. I sit down next to her. And I'll ask her about Gulash.

1:12:10 Now of course she can't speak English. My Hungarian at that point is Hi, how are you? I need to go to the bathroom. And Some of the younger people on the train are watching.

1:12:20 Me and grandma are trying. Talk to each other. And naturally they come over. And a Start to translate.

1:12:29 He wants to know that What makes A great Gulash. This

1:12:36 Grandma's chess. Yes. Bursts with pride. And now she's talking about her grandmother gulash. Her mom making gulash.

1:12:46 All the ingredients that go into gulage, how they gotta be put together just the right way. And then she looks. At all these young Hungarians said, You know I've been riding on this train. For decades.

1:12:59 Not one of you has asked. How I make my gulash. This American PS You tell him he has to come to my house because I am going to prepare him gulage so he knows

1:13:15 What it's like to eat gulag and hungry. All the people on the train come along. Now I'm staying with grandma. Not only does she invite the people in the train. All her neighbors. All her friends

1:13:28 Her relatives. Now I'm at the table. Room full of people, they're all surrounding me. The gulash is in front of me. And I slowly lift it to my lips. I taste it.

1:13:40 My eyes. And I smile. And the there's just a roar from this place. He loves grandma's gulash! S

1:13:50 The party goes on for like four days. Mm. And during the party. One of the neighbors says, Well, you know, have you ever tasted Apricot brandy?

1:14:02 Because Nobody makes apricot brandy like my father. He lives Half an hour away from me. You gotta come to taste the apricot brandy.

1:14:11 That weekend We're tasting apricot brandy. Having a great time. Another party start. Another neighbor comes over to me.

1:14:19 Have you ever been to Kishkenhalis? The Paprika capital of the world? You cannot leave Hungary. Without visiting Kishken Hallas. Now we're off to Kishkenhaws. I'm telling you

1:14:31 A single question about Gulash. Six weeks of lodging and meals. And that's how I got passed around the world. That's incredible. Ten years. Ten years. So so what else did you

1:14:48 Learn about Asking questions. Or if you want to tackle it a different way. What are

1:14:56 Some common mistakes. that people make in Asking people questions, whether it's on a on a Train or otherwise. But

1:15:05 Feel free to tackle either. You know what? That's a good question for a little later because that's what I discovered later on. At the time. And I'll bring it directly. Cord.

1:15:18 Hiring people. Where Questions are being asked of job candidates. Like What's your biggest weakness?

1:15:27 Which They've already prepared like Two hours. on how to answer that question. You're not you're not gonna get spontaneous

1:15:35 Good response that. I work too hard. Sometimes I get accused of being too detail oriented. You got it. You got it. Nailed it. That is the wrong question. But we'll get to that because I wasn't there yet. I didn't even know what I was doing. Other than Okay. You've got to figure out a way to make people trust you.

1:16:01 Through your questions. And I no longer had to fill out a story. I didn't need a who, what, when, where and why. It was just Pure? Curiosity.

1:16:13 And then it zoned into This basic fact. People want to talk about their lives. And often, especially if you go to a small town somewhere. People

1:16:28 They may not Be able to talk so much. About their lives. Because everybody talks about everybody in these little towns and Everybody knows the gossip, everybody knows the feelings.

1:16:41 And you have to keep Some things to yourself. But If this guy comes into your house And he's from

1:16:50 Seven thousand miles away. You can open up Things you would never tell. People close by.

1:16:59 No, hein? He's gonna leave. And keep in mind this was a day there were no cell phones. There's no social media. There was no Facebook. There was no

1:17:10 Going on the internet and finding out what this person just told me. It was like a safe. It's a safe haven. Yeah. I was completely safe for these people. Not only that. But

1:17:20 I was A safe haven for a lot of women. Because If they were in a small town and They are

1:17:31 meeting somebody from their small town, everybody's gonna know about it. But If you meet this traveller You're Eyes are gonna be open to this new world plus

1:17:43 You can go over to the next town. and like have a meal and and start talking and get to know each other. And you're kind of free. of all the constrictions of where you live. And so

1:17:58 In a way Like I became handsome. You know. It's like I can remember in college going into A bar in in Colorado.

1:18:08 And All the guys were like six foot I don't know what it was at night. But everybody was like six foot four or Or taller. You know?

1:18:17 And like the girls were over six, but I'm just kind of walking around. I'm like much smaller. And I just realized there was I don't fit in here. It's just a different I'm not handsome here.

1:18:29 It's like every Dutch or Swedish party I've ever been to. Okay. Similar feeling. Okay. So here's there you go. I'm traveling around, right? And I meet a six foot two Dutch girl. And

1:18:43 Wanna share a room as we're traveling? Okay. Fantastic. It was so easy. Because we were

1:18:50 In a different place. And Once you're traveling, you're a much different person than you are when you're at home. People see you differently. And they treat you differently.

1:19:02 You see people differently too. Yeah. I mean, in a sense that I don't recall who said this initially, but People will travel to the other side of the world to pay attention to things that they routinely ignore at home. Bingo. Yeah. And uh it seems like a modern day

1:19:18 Or I should say a different manifestation of this is sitting down on an airplane next to someone. And you can get people to open up or they'll volunteer to open up. in ways that they might not They assume rightly in most cases they're never gonna see you again. That's it.

1:19:34 A hundred percent. And when you talk about seeing people differently When you're waking up in the morning And you don't know what's gonna happen. And then you meet somebody.

1:19:45 The person becomes like the most fascinating person on On the world. In that moment. And they they feel that because you don't know their life, so you're starting to ask them questions They're getting this attention. It's like you're

1:19:59 I don't want to say you're making them into a rock star. But they're getting the the same kind of attention The questions that are coming, why did you do that? What kind of friends do you have? What's this culture like here?

1:20:11 And all of a sudden they're feeling Like there in the spotlight and it feels good. And for women it feels great. Because also now and I'm sure. If you're feeling boxed in and you meet somebody from afar

1:20:26 Whoa I wonder what it's like in America. Maybe you'll like me. Maybe he'll take me home with him. Maybe I can visit. And so Олесь конверсійс.

1:20:37 are just filled with possibilities and potentials. Yeah. It's beautiful. In both directions too, I think. I mean in my uh I remember just in some of my travels, I mean, you you come across not just the natives, but you meet other people who are traveling from distant lands and kind of

1:20:52 finding their own way in the same way that you are, and you start to wonder, like, Well, maybe I should visit Turkey. Maybe I should visit the paprika capital of Hungary. And it's just that The endless possibilities. when divorced from like the routine of your life at home that are so exciting.

1:21:08 It's that and also I remember that the skinny guy We're in Yugoslavia. And this was right. before the Olympics in Sarajevo and it was cold. And I remember

1:21:21 We looked at each other and and just you know, it's it's like too cold here. We didn't have Winter clothing. And I said to him

1:21:32 You know There are camel races in Duz, Tunisia. And like a day later. We're in

1:21:42 Tunisia. We just got on a flight and flew to Tunisia. And Headed to do's. We missed the races.

1:21:51 But but you know, the next thing you knew were like we've got pictures of us in like the middle of the Sahara Desert. And so there was just The possibility of And look. It's even more like that now where

1:22:05 You got the internet to help you connect with somebody, you can get on a plane. And be in a different world. Sure. Couch surfing. I mean there are cost free options out there. If couch surfing was here.

1:22:19 When I was going around the world I don't know. I might I might still be going. It was the end of the trip that changed my style of interviewing again, but If

1:22:31 I could have been couch surfing. I can't even imagine the potential I would have had because From what I'm told, like you get rated. Isn't it? It's sort of like Uber, you rate the driver, you're right.

1:22:43 So you you rate the place you stay and they rate the guests. So basically I'm coming in with all these stories and to regale you from these different parts of the world. I'd get eight ratings across I'd get five stars across the board and then Everybody would want come to my place. Please come to my place.

1:23:04 But There was none of that. And every day you had to get on the I had to get on the train or the bus Unless People s were passing me around. After a while it became

1:23:15 Easier and easier because it was well you know, I got a cousin here. And then I'd get off the train and the cousin would be waiting for me. And a party would be waiting for me at his house when I got there. So really it was like a ten year party.

1:23:30 I do want to get to the The end of the trip. The impact on the interviewing. But first And I Can't believe I haven't asked this.

1:23:39 Four. But How did you hone your ability to tell stories? Because you're very good at asking questions, but that doesn't automatically make one good at telling stories. Maybe part of that is To writing.

1:23:53 Because that's what I was doing. I would interview people and then I would have to What? what I got down in a specific order. Or a non specific order in order to

1:24:06 Manipul into leaning closer, what's gonna happen, what's gonna happen, what's gonna happen. Meaning like an in media rest sort of in the middle of the action type of start to pull them in? Yeah, something at the exactly. You started to pull them in and then you're Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait a minute. Now you have to go back to the beginning. I suckered you in here. But then there other more complicated ways where you don't

1:24:31 Start that way in the beginning and you save it. for the end, but you do it in a more nuanced way, it's almost like Okay, I'm I'm reading but w what is Could you give me an example? I'm so curious.

1:24:45 Because for people who aren't writers, maybe I mean if and I'm not gonna lose track here, but I haven't been in journalism school. But when I've taken some writing classes they talk about like the lead And you get at least for the nonfiction stuff, right? You get a couple of statistics, you need a couple of quotes, like three people is a trend, and then you sort of piece it together.

1:25:03 Don't bury the lead meaning bring This sort of attention grabbing piece to the top, it's and so on. We talked about the briefly the in media rest. What would be a more subtle way to approach An opener. Okay.

1:25:15 So just say you had a murder story. Alright, and you were operating by that Principle in journalism like Put it right at the top. And then

1:25:24 Okay, this horrible thing happened. Let's go back to the beginning and then now you've got to add everything up to see why that moment happened. Another option. Is to start it. And

1:25:37 Like a very ordinary way with just a twist. That Tells you Something's gonna go on here. I don't know. And you just

1:25:49 Keep reeling them in slowly. Yes. If a little more Oh man, and then they met this person and What's gonna happen now? And then

1:26:00 You save it. Till Near the end of the story. Part of the problem is when you do that in a magazine. They'll give it away in the headline. I was gonna ask about the headline.

1:26:12 Yeah. But You can still use that. tactic of Telling

1:26:18 A story that Slowly grabs you. And then It it just puts out a little bait. It gives you that smell of something interesting here.

1:26:30 And then you're dragging the line. So that they've gotta keep Following it. And they're feeling, you know what? Something big is behind here. And make them

1:26:39 Get to the end and then if you can deliver I don't want to say it's orgasmic, but You know, it's funny, I was thinking of like this sexual analogy though. It's like it's instead of the the wham bam thank you ma'am quick fix. It's like okay, I didn't think that I needed some tantric sex and two hours of this. Turns out it's pretty great. And then you get the payoff and you're like, you know what? That was totally worth it. That's you just named it. It's the tantric sex. The tantric structure. Storytelling. That's it. Sting would love it. You know, six hours.

1:27:11 So at the end of your travels. what happened that affected your Okay, so I'm going around. I'm going having a great time. And After ten years, I mean I got a pretty good network of people, so

1:27:26 I don't really even have to. Rely on Meeting somebody. Because enough people know me and When you're in Brazil.

1:27:39 Oh there's this Fazenda de cacao. Farm where they grow the Cocoa beans. Like great couple just

1:27:47 Go there. Like we'll send the letter in advance. They'll be expecting you. So I am At this point it's almost like

1:27:55 I'm a guest that's now expected. Part of the family. And A friend of the skinny guy. What?

1:28:06 The skinny guy got married. And he decided to Take a year And spend it in Coach Obama Bolivia

1:28:17 So I hear that and I'm thinking to be and knew that plan before signing up. No, she did. Okay. I mean that and that that was it. Let's do something We don't have any kids. Let's do something outrageous that nobody Expected. And so naturally I hear Coach Obama Bolivia, hey

1:28:37 I was In Peru? Now Skinny guys moving to Coach Obama. Hey, I'll spend a few months in Coachabamba.

1:28:46 So I'm there. And I get a call from the Washington Post Sunday magazine. And again, going back to this nexus. The guy in charge had worked at Inside Sports and now he was in charge of his own magazine. And he called me up and he said, You know what? We're doing an issue about Great beaches around the world.

1:29:07 We know you've been to Brazil before. Is there a story about a beach in Brazil? That you could Right up for us. And at the time I said, look, I'm in Cochabam, Bolivia you would think it's crazy.

1:29:21 But I was really getting into Coach Obama Bolivia. It's like complete different culture and there's an altiplano that It's a landlocked nation. You you're really are experiencing something different as a traveller. But

1:29:36 I said, Oh okay. I you know what? I said I heard I actually heard of a of a beach. In Brazil. You might not want me to go there because You're probably doing this as a travel issue to Basically hook up with

1:29:50 Travel agents and airlines so people can go to these destinations. Speech that I heard of is On the north of Brazil. From what I heard You can't even get there unless you go on like a crude sailing vessel and on mule back and

1:30:08 And the other saying, you know. Why don't you just check this place out? So I say okay and I leave Coach Obama, I go to Brazil.

1:30:18 And I And uh In a city called Fort Deleza. Fortaleza. And just as I arrive.

1:30:26 The first Trip. To this isolated beach. Sand dunes that Look like they're straight out of the h Sahara.

1:30:36 But it against like the most sparkling waters of the Caribbean. The first Torbus. is going to go to this place. They're gonna be dune buggies, we don't have to go by mule, we don't need the crude sailing vessels. And I'm just right on time.

1:30:52 And so First Bus leaves. Midnight. Friday night.

1:30:58 And I buy my ticket. Get on the bus. And I let down my guard. And I spoke to the beautiful woman.

1:31:07 On the bus. On the way to the enchanted beach in Brazil. That was the end of the trip. And I would tell you the rest of the story, except it takes two hours to do. We'll be at a well, you're not doing it on tape, but

1:31:22 If digital has any limits we'll be we'll be out of there. But that's the important That was a moment where my style of interviewing had a change again. Because I was no longer traveling around the world. The woman and I got married.

1:31:39 We moved to New York. And then I began to Right. for Esquire magazine.

1:31:48 And All the things that I learned were On buses. Trains. I was then able to

1:31:55 Project. into Esquire's What I've Learned column, which consists of interviews with the most celebrated, accomplished and created people on earth. I have the uh The handy recorder, the H four N on top of one of these, in fact,

1:32:11 This is the third volume? That's the third volume. These interviews have been done for Almost twenty years now. with everybody from presidents to premieres to movie stars

1:32:26 Basically People that you know The idea is for me to interview them. And Using their own words show them in a light

1:32:38 That You never really knew. So you think you know these people. And then you listen to their experiences and you say Whoa I never knew that about Robert De Niro.

1:32:51 Mikhail Gorbachev? So that is where These conversations on the trains were so important. Because I did not approach

1:33:01 These interviews With Woody Allen or Wolfgang Puck. George Clooney.

1:33:08 As if I was a journalist. I approached them and as if they were sitting on the train Next to the empty seat. And I just sat down next to them.

1:33:18 And That Is where the evolution Continued. Until

1:33:25 Actually very recently. It was twenty years. So it took me like ten years To understand that an interview was more than meet the press. But then another twenty. To figure out that it was more than Sitting down with

1:33:39 George Clooney. And having the time of my life. Because crazy thing happened to me, caught me completely off guard. And

1:33:49 made me think about interviewing in a whole different way. And this was only very recently. Can you talk about that or should you keep that off? No, a hundred percent. Can you mention that just'cause you brought it up and then we'll We'll dial back the clock. Sure. And can I show you something first also? I've digested This entire thing with highlights and so on, their notes on writer's block.

1:34:08 Jody Foster's comment, one of my favorites, just for folks, in the end, winning is sleeping better. I just love that. So good. highlighted Woody Allen. It just goes on and on. So I uh love this entire compilation and encourage people to check it out. But What changed. So recently.

1:34:25 So I was asked to Give a speech. On a cruise, and I never Ever ever went on cruises before. In fact I gotta say

1:34:36 It's almost laughable because there are certain people like they hear cruise And they turn up their nose. And I think I was one of those people, in fact, I had a friend who's a writer. And his wife wanted to go on a cruise. And she kept on pestering him, pestering him and my wife finally said to him, Why don't you take your wife on a cruise?

1:34:59 And he said. Because I draw the line. I said. Oh man. Maybe I think about cruises that way.

1:35:09 Yeah. And then I was invited to speak on a cruise, but it was a special cruise. It was a cruise called Summit at Sea. Yep, and so the summit series guys. Okay, so you th you know these folks and Basically it's a cruise ship filled

1:35:25 With four thousand entrepreneurial minds. And That was wild to begin with. Because I had never I had limited experiences with entrepreneurs.

1:35:39 And then you Put yourself On a ship. With four thousand entrepreneurs, your life is gonna change. A lot of potential energy. Yeah, it's like it's like Ted plus Coachella plus Infinite amounts of alcohol. There you go. And y you can even

1:35:56 Get on an elevator. Without meeting somebody, somebody on the elevator is gonna say, What's your name? I'm Michael. This is where I work. This is what I do. What they who are you? I felt at the end of like three days, I my head was really it was like getting pumped up with helium.

1:36:14 I was about to explode. It was amazing experience. And like you're sitting down and Like at dinner and the guy next to you say, Oh, this is the rocket ship I'm building. You wanna see? And he pulls out his phone and he shows you his rocket ship. This is like wild. And

1:36:30 It was like traveling around the world, except the world came to you. I think Jane Goodall was there also. I mean it just goes on and on. And like the world is coming to you. And wanting to to hear you and tell you what they're up to. So like in three days.

1:36:48 Uh at some of it at C you literally can go around the world. And I was totally unprepared for this. I was asked to give a speech. Called. Decoding the art of the interview

1:36:59 And I never spoke in before. Didn't know what it was gonna be like. But I you know, I have experience with Mikhail Gorbachev and Donald Trump and De Niro and Muhammad Ali later on.

1:37:13 In life. That They're good stories. And so I've been telling these stories

1:37:20 As I was traveling around on Saturday nights and people always Oh tell the Ali story So I knew okay, I don't know how to give a speech, but I can tell these stories. And so I go up and I tell my and here's the thing about it. There are twenty events going on at once.

1:37:37 Generally When you look at that what I've learned, Colin. I'm invisible. I don't write a single word, I just interview them. The subject.

1:37:46 And then put it down in their own words. So I'm not a guy who you would ever see on T V that you would really know. I'm invisible. Yeah, there are people who know what I do. And People in the know

1:38:01 Will come up and Tell me, hey. I respect what you do. In odd ways. But I'm figuring

1:38:07 Okay, I'm on this cruise ship, maybe twenty people are gonna show up at best. And in fact, I had read Pencils for promise. By Adam Braun. And he talked about giving

1:38:21 It might have been his first speech. And I guess he was expecting a crow. And he had maybe six friends attending. And only one person

1:38:32 Other than his six friends showed up. And he went out and he gave this speech, and what he realized Was You give the sp as if that one person is the entire audience.

1:38:46 And it turned out that she was so enthused that she w later went to work for his charity. So I went in prepare that book. Prepared me If there's one person in there

1:38:57 I don't care. I'm gonna give that Person the best. I'm not gonna be disappointed. I'm just gonna go out, I'm gonna tell my stories, give a few lessons. And let's see how it goes.

1:39:08 Maybe the same day that I'm supposed to speak, they move my event. So it's now even in the program. If you're going to my event, you're going to the wrong place. You're going to the wrong place. So now I'm thinking, okay, I'm down to like ten people. That's cool. I'll speak to the one. The time for the speech comes.

1:39:26 People start filing in. And I had set up this speech around wine. And there's a reason for it,'cause when one of the stories we could get to a little later. I went out to learn about wine by becoming the Somalier at Windows of the World at the top of the World Trade Center.

1:39:42 Right before the planes hit it. And so I'm very attached to wine. And what I wanted to do was to have everybody drinking a glass of wine while I told these stories.

1:39:55 So if I messed up, they were still helping it. That's right. We set it up so that all the wine is there ready ready to be served to people as they come in. Budgeting for ten people. Well no, I said okay, there are like a hundred fifty seats. If a hundred fifty people show up, fine, have the glasses and the wine, but Let's face it, you may only go through a bottle. So they were all prepared. And play seated a hundred fifty and this funky nightclub.

1:40:25 And all of a sudden the time starts to roll around. And I'm watching And people are just flooding in. They take up

1:40:34 All the seats. And I was very specific to the people serving the wine. I set up this speech to have toasts. Throughout. To keep everybody's involvement going.

1:40:45 So everybody had to lift their glass and like Scream with me. It's to keep everyone engaged. And so I said to the people delivering the wine, look. I need you to be able to walk down this corridor.

1:40:59 Down the center. And keep everybody's glasses filled,'cause it's bad luck to toast with empty glass. And so We're all set and now every seat's taken. And there's still like ten minutes before the speech set to start, and people are still coming in.

1:41:15 And now There. Coming down the aisle and they're sitting like at my ankles. And they're Filling the aisle.

1:41:23 Cross legged in the high. Taking up the foot space. To the back? The complete back and now there's a line of people. that can't get in. I've become like the hottest nightclub in New York City. And

1:41:39 I'd never done this before. Not to derail this, but what do you attribute that to? I think what happened is They switched you with Richard Branson in the program. No, that's good. We'll have to work that work on that next time.

1:42:00 It I think what happened is we titled it. Decoding the art of the interview. With Mikhail Gorbachev, Robert De Niro, and Donald Trump. And naturally it's sad like Cal Fussman has interviewed these people, but

1:42:16 People came in w wondering or what what's it like to interview Gorbachev? Or De Niro. Or Donald Trump. So And we'll definitely dig into some of that. But Okay.

1:42:26 And so I'm watching all these people flood in and now the aisle is completely Cluttered. I can't get wine to people. Now I'm starting to freak out. Because I don't want people toasting with an empty glass. And

1:42:42 The back of the room is like it it's getting jam packed. And so I just said well Just go out and give your speech. So the the speech it lasts for about an hour.

1:42:55 And I guess a r really good response. But What was surprising about it was afterward like this was a long line of people To see me.

1:43:06 And Yeah. Business people. And The first couple came up, two women.

1:43:13 It's a okay. You taught us about asking questions. We got a problem. We are really passionate about our business. We can't seem to find people. To work.

1:43:26 For us. that are just as passionate as we are. What can we do? What can we ask? I said, all right, that's easy. Just tum the Dr Dre story.

1:43:36 Back to Dre story, yeah. I said I was I was Interviewing Doctor Dre and I said to him What's the longest you've gone? Working on a passion project.

1:43:46 Without sleep. And he said, Oh man, when I'm working on something I really care about I'm in the zone. I don't think about sleep. It's just

1:43:56 I go until it's done. Could be seventy two hours. So I said Just tell the person you're interviewing. Doctor Dre.

1:44:05 He goes seventy two hours. What's the longest you've ever gone? On a passion project without sleep. You'll be able to tell something about that person by their answer. And look, they may tell you

1:44:19 You know what? I get eight. Hour sleep. Every night. Because I come

1:44:25 To work every morning fully charged. And you're gonna know. Hey. Maybe that's the right person for a certain job in your company. It's not gonna be

1:44:35 The most completely passionate person But maybe they're the person that's got to do something nuts and bolts. Right. CFO or the guy who interacts with Wall Street. Exactly. Or Gail. And so You will find out Through that answer.

1:44:53 something that's gonna help you make a decision. And if your girls are looking you could tell they're looking at Okay, that's our question. Well tell him the Doctor Trace story. And then people started coming up to me. running successful businesses who had to hire a lot of people

1:45:10 All at once'cause the business is doing really well. And you could tell They were nervous. Because all of a sudden a business that starts with an idea and only them Is now

1:45:24 taking on a thousand people in a year. How? Are you sure that those thousand people have what you had when you started the company. That essence.

1:45:36 Because If they don't have it. The essence of the company is no longer what You want it. And

1:45:44 Guys like that. And women are coming up and and saying, You know Next time you're in San Francisco, can we get together? Because I can tell. There's

1:45:55 Obviously. An issue with hiring. And it it's funny because now I'm starting to ask everybody about it. And I'm really becoming very conscious.

1:46:07 That This is a like an issue that's really important to a lot of people. Oh, it's the challenge. We were chatting before we started recording about Silicon Valley and some of the issues surrounding Attracting and retaining.

1:46:23 Top talent. It's the fundamental challenge for a lot of these startups in particular when you go from perhaps hiring say if you bootstrap for a period of time ten people in a year to hiring ten people a day or a week. It's a massive challenge putting together a process for that. So

1:46:40 Question for you about the presentation. So if we were to try to decode decoding the art of the interview. We're gonna try to meta that and decode the presentation itself. What story or stories I don't think I've heard of it.

1:46:55 Any of them. For that matter, yet. Did people seem to respond best to? There's one that I have tucked in the back of my mind because when Alex Mutual friend of ours asked me if I had heard this story and I said no, he was just not gonna say disgusted, but just

1:47:10 Speechless at how I had not managed to h to hear this yet. But what what did people respond to best in terms of Stories. Interesting. Different people respond differently to the different stories. One if I was deconstructing the speech

1:47:29 One of the things that I wanted to do was to explain how much you can do with a single question, In a short amount of time. And

1:47:41 To back that. Yeah. I told a story about my meeting with Mikhail Gorbachev. So I'll take it back to saying

1:47:49 Two thousand eight. I think it's February, we're in New Orleans. And In a hotel lobby. I'm all set to interview Mikhail Gorbachev for Esquire's What I've Learned column.

1:48:01 We got an hour and a half. And Fully prepared. Ready to go. Couldn't have been happier.

1:48:09 And I get a call. I pick out the phone. Hi Cal. It's the publicist. Sorry to

1:48:19 So I have to pass this on, but The interview with Mr. Gorbachev's gonna have to be cut short. And now I'm thinking, Oh man, oh what w is it gonna be down to an hour? That's the thing, with this what I've learned column. I can't fluff it up.

1:48:34 I can't fill it out. I can't use my words. They have to be Mikel Scorbachev's words, and they have to be wise words. I need At the very least an hour. Two

1:48:46 Extract that. Move into his soul in a way that makes him feel comfortable. And extract that wisdom. At the very least forty five minutes. So I say to her, Oh, okay, okay, how much time do I got? Ten minutes.

1:49:00 Ha Ten minutes? Are you n I don't say are you nuts, but it's impossible. I can't do this interview in ten minutes. Cal, cow, look I understand. But a lot of very important people have been added to the list. See Mr. Gorbachev. There's nothing we can do about this.

1:49:21 Do you want the 10 minutes or not? What am I gonna do? Say no? Okay, I'll take the ten minutes. So I'm sitting down and I'm thinking and the more I'm thinking about this, the worse it's getting. Because

1:49:33 Number one, I'm knowing that Um Of my questions. Are going to be Translate into Russian.

1:49:42 And all of his answers are gonna be translated back into English. Yeah, we're we're moving down. Plus You're gonna sit down. And you're gonna exchange pleasantries. It's not gonna start in a fingersnap. Two and a half minutes. Yeah, ex yeah. It wasn't two minutes, but it wasn't much more.

1:50:01 And so the the publicist leads me into the room and at this point I'm thinking, Okay, if it's two and a half minutes like Do your best. And I look up and like there he is Gourby! And he's A little older than I remember. He's about seventy seven at the time. He was in town to speak.

1:50:20 About Nuclear weapons and why they should be abolished. And we sit down. And I'm looking at him and I just know. Just no he's expecting

1:50:31 My first question to be about nuclear arms. World politics Paris Troika. Ronald Reagan. He's just ready.

1:50:40 So I I looked at him and I said What's the best lesson your father ever taught you? And he is Surprise. Pleasantly surprised.

1:50:51 He looks up. Ain't nothing answered. He's like thinking about this. It's as if after a little while. He's seeing on the ceiling this movie of his past.

1:51:04 And he starts to tell me this story. А не це сторі About The day his dad was called to go fight in World War Two. See Gorbachev lived on lived on a farm.

1:51:16 And it was a long distance between this farm and the town Where Gorbachev's dad had to join the other men Go off to war. And so the whole family Took this trip.

1:51:29 With the dad to this town. To wish him well. As he went off. And Gorbachev is talking about this trip and he's like providing these intricate details And I'm transfixed.

1:51:41 And I'm saying like, Oh my god, I has the worst Possible question. This interview is gonna be over, he's not even gonna get to town yet. Ha ha ha.

1:51:53 So Finally they do get to town. And Gorbachev's dad. Takes the family in to this little shop. And he gets ice cream for everybody.

1:52:05 And Gorbachev starts describing this ice cream and the cup that it was in. Is aluminum cup. And as he's telling me, it's almost like he's got His hand out in front of him and the cup's in it. It's that vivid to him.

1:52:20 And it's as if in this moment we both have this same realization. That cup of ice cream І за різ That he was able to make peace with Ronald Reagan and then the Cold War. Because that cup of ice cream

1:52:37 Just their memory of it. Is the memory of what it felt like For his dad to go off to war, for him to see his dad going off to war That

1:52:48 Cup of ice cream. In the memory was the dread that he knew that Of the possibility of never seeing his father again. And we are looking at each other like Oh man, this is deep!

1:53:01 He didn't expect it. Any more than I did. Just at that moment, knock on the door. It's the publicist. Publicist comes in, very officious.

1:53:11 Scorbachev, Cal, time for the interview is up. And he looks at it and he wags his finger, he says No. I want to talk to him. Publish this.

1:53:21 Let's up our hands. Yes, sir. And she like back out. Sheepishly. The door shuts.

1:53:27 Conversation continues. Now we're getting deeper. Ten minutes later. Now they're knocking on the door. This time the publicist comes in a little slower, mister Gorbachev.

1:53:38 Cow Gorbachev says. No. I wanna talk to him. She backs out.

1:53:45 Ten minutes later. Knock on the door. This time she's in a panic. 'Cause the the the train cars are just piling up. Mexico. Please.

1:53:56 I've got the mayor of New Orleans right outside. There's a long line of people. We're way behind schedule. And he he didn't say anything, but the look on his face was Hey. What can I do, Cal? So I said

1:54:11 Thank you. Like I knew I Pushed it to as long as it could be pushed. And I laughed. And

1:54:18 The interview Was it success in that You know, and had a little story like that. And people could understand something about Gorbachev that they might Never have

1:54:32 No. But for me, when I look back on it, what I realized was The power Uh The first question going straight to the heart.

1:54:42 And not the head. Because it was that question that went into his heart. That took us And enable the interview.

1:54:53 To continue to go. And because the interview could go I was able to fill out the page for For Esquire. Otherwise

1:55:01 That would have been it. There would have been no way The interview would have run. So Lesson number one Mm-hmm.

1:55:08 People ask me What tips would I give? Is Aim for the heart. Not the head.

1:55:16 Once you get the heart. You can go to the head. Once you get The heart and the head. Then you'll have a pathway to the soul.

1:55:24 And so basically the speech was Lessons tie to stories. That Back them up.

1:55:33 And whether it was with Gorbachev or Donald Trump or Robert De Niro or Muhammad Ali Each story allowed the listener to Understand something very basic. So I'm gonna pick a name.

1:55:46 That we haven't heard yet. Just because this is the one That's Made Alex dance around. 'Cause that's all you could do to respond.

1:55:54 Before he insisted that I ask you about it. So Julio Cesar Chavez. That's another that's another story. And it it goes back Two A time when I was a teenager.

1:56:09 And Again you as I start it out. You knew that my childhood hero was Muhammad Ali. So I followed boxing. And

1:56:18 Naturally I wanted to fight. Where I lived there were no boxing gym around. What we had in New York was a tournament called The golden gloves. Golden Gloves, big deal. Yeah. Sponsored by the Daily News.

1:56:31 The final sold out Madison Square Garden every year. I had no idea how to fight. And I wanted to do it. So

1:56:41 Basically like a month before the Golden Glove started, I showed up at a gym that was a few towns over in a bad neighborhood. And said, uh, like I wanna train for the Golden Gloves. You had to be sixteen. I just turned sixteen. I entered. And

1:56:56 This manager pulled me aside and said no no no. That's not the way it works. Like you don't know how to fight. You don't know anything about fighting. What you do is you come here. Every night.

1:57:07 And we'll teach you. And Within a year. We can put you in with people who have your experience. And you'll learn

1:57:16 And then a year from now. You'll have some experience and you can go into the golden gloves. You know, if you're good, you'll you'll do okay. I said. No no no no you don't understand.

1:57:26 I came to fight. Yeah. Thanks, Pop, for the listen. That's right. And basically

1:57:34 I wasn't on the tall side, so I was a short guy and a sh very short arms. And you know, my style was basically, you know, Hey man, I'm just gonna rush across the ring and I'm just gonna start throwing punches. Joe Fraser style. That's right. And you'll you'll see what happens. Ha ha Because like Joe Fraser knew how to fight. Right, right.

1:57:54 All I could do was just throw reckless, wild, crazy punches one after another. I was in good shape. So I I get throw punches. Three minutes around just Start to finish. And it was it was actually for the people in the gym was kind of comical to watch.

1:58:12 Because You know, everybody knew that when I finally got in the ring, one of two things was gonna happen. Maybe I'd be able to just simply overwhelm whoever was in the ring. Just By sheer virtue, um, I'm coming at you to throw everything I got and I'm not stopping. The Tasmanian devil. You got it.

1:58:33 And so The month passes or so. And it's time for my fight in the golden gloves. And there was somebody at this club that was gonna represent me. And I show up the club, he was gonna drive me into Queens, New York. I was living at Long Island at the time.

1:58:50 And I was all set. And so I show up For my manager to pick me up, he's not there. Ha.

1:58:59 Lift at the altar. Right. Now I I don't have a manager. I don't have a lift to get into this place and there're no cellphones. You know, you're standing by a payphone throwing in quarters like who can help me? I gotta get To the fights. Gotta fight.

1:59:14 And of course everybody in the school knows about this and so It's at a high school in Queenswood, a very large gym arena. It's like a Catholic school. And I managed to get somebody to drive me down there.

1:59:30 And arrived just in nick of time, but now like I'm all nervous. Just to get there. And I'm able to check in. I wrap my hands, get my gloves on.

1:59:42 And Out of nowhere comes my opponent in the dressing room. And in the most casual way possible. He just puts out his left hand and says like Hey sus.

1:59:55 That was his name. But you can tell I'm not only like was there a scar down one side of his face, like to his lip. But you could just tell he had done this like Four hundred times. Before he was eight years old.

2:00:09 This is like checking in for work. It's Complete. And so

2:00:16 Now I'm starting to like realize Uh oh. This could be like a predicament. And

2:00:25 I get somebody who's never I've never met before to work my corner. And this guy Has no idea my style. No idea. Yes he thinks like, Okay, I know how to fight.

2:00:39 And so he says, Okay, kid, listen, you know, we're gonna go in the ring, I want you to just Take it nice and easy, you move move around a little, show'em the jab and Let's see what happens. So Start to walk in the reiner and

2:00:54 This is like Mid seventies. In fact it's not Two Right around a few years before the Rocky movie came out.

2:01:03 Yeah, the great white hope. Well, I'm like the only white fighter. On this card. And ninety percent Of the audience.

2:01:13 Is all white. Okay. So When I come in the ring, it's like the great white hope. has finally arrived. Like people are standing

2:01:23 Cheering going nuts. And I like looking around. And it's like it's surreal. I I've lost sense of where I'm at. And this the one year I got

2:01:36 Okay. Move around, jab. I've forgotten who I am. And we get to the ring. Go to the center, get the instructions. And I am like completely lost.

2:01:47 I do not know what happened. All I remember was Getting up. Actually my eyes opening And seeing like three fingers.

2:01:59 That were very blurry. And then Like I'm hearing four. Fine! Six.

2:02:06 And I get up. And Now I can kinda see clearly. And hey, Seuss is coming at me. And his right hand comes back.

2:02:15 And it's like right in front of me. Right in front of me. And the bell rings. And so I go back to the corner and now I'm pissed.

2:02:26 Like what just happened to me? Like get in there! Throw your punches! Just Go at him! And I'm sitting on the stool, th the manager's saying something

2:02:36 I don't even hear what he's saying'cause all I'm hearing is myself. Just screaming at myself. Throw punches! Remember who you are! In the meantime, the ref is coming over and he's saying, Like, Son, are you okay? Are you okay?

2:02:51 I'm saying Of course I'm okay. I'm gonna kick his ass. I'm I'm gonna come out you're gonna see some punches. Next thing you know, like the referee is like waving his hands and stopping the fight. I didn't respond to him. I was like I was out So this dialogue that you're having with yourself, like that was entirely internal. That's right. No idea.

2:03:13 I know I do. The worst part of all this is My dad is in the crowd and he brought like Two of his childhood friends. Oh God. Right? So now

2:03:25 You can imagine. What I'm Hearing. Like any time there's a family reunion. Any time this comes up we need a funny story.

2:03:35 It's like, oh remember Cal in the Golden Gloves. And so I'm hearing this again and again and again over the years. And finally Must have been well well, like almost twenty years later. Right after I meet the women in Brazil.

2:03:51 She moves to New York, we get married. And I'm watching the TV. And Julio Cesar Chavez. The great Mexican champion. Junior Welt to weight hundred forty pounds.

2:04:03 He was Eighty five, eighty six and oh at that point. And I'm watching him on T V as he's cornering an opponent. I got a big bag of chips. between my legs and at this point

2:04:15 Or right after the marriage, you didn't put on a bunch of weight. I got a beer belly. So I got a beer in one hand, chips in the other Belly between them. And I'm screaming at the TV. Come on. Finish him off. What are you doing? Finish him off, Julio.

2:04:30 And my wife looks at me and and says, Hey Like calm down. We we've heard your boxing stories. Because That was the first thing. When my family met her.

2:04:41 That they indoctrinated her. You know about Cal in the Golden Gloves, don't you? So I look at her. I look at the TV. And it's clear what needs to be done here. Because I've gotta get my manhood back.

2:04:55 And I said To my wife, you know what? You see that guy on the TV? Julio César Chavez? I'm gonna fight him.

2:05:04 Ha ha And so naturally Like you're you're crazy. Forget it. You know, we we've heard the story. But now I know I have to do this.

2:05:18 to close this chapter in my life. No matter what. No, just to place it at the time you're writing for Esquire. Actually When we moved to New York I

2:05:30 Had written Or I was writing for a magazine called GQ. And the editor. At the time when my editor at GQ was a guy named David Granger, who later became the editor of Esquire, and when he did, he brought me and a bunch of writers with him. So this all started at GQ.

2:05:46 And in the day after my wife It's laughing at me. I march into David Granger's office and I say Hey. You wanna buy a story?

2:05:54 I'm gonna go fight Julio Cesar Chavez. He said what? I give him the background. And he said, All right, let me go in and check with my boss. See what our insurance policy looks like. No, they may meet that was the first thing. You're gonna have to sign documents saying We're not responsible for this.

2:06:12 This is all on you. I said, That's fine. And I go down to the Times Square Gym on Forty Second Street at the time. And

2:06:23 Uh These Brickety old wooden steps. It was like Something out of the past, like you could literally hear each foot that you put down.

2:06:33 And then there's like the drumbeat of the bags. And you walk up there. And Since I had followed boxing, I knew who people were, and I just start looking around at the trainers. And there was a guy I recognized. His name was Harold Weston.

2:06:50 And he had fought Tommy Hearns. The well to weight champion. Tommy Heard was nasty. Yeah. And he had actually done pretty well. He was a very slick boxer. He wasn't that tall, and Tommy Hearns was like six two, six three.

2:07:05 tremendous reach and an unbelievable power in his hands. And I think That fight went a while. I know Tommy scored a TKO, but Harold had done pretty well avo avoiding the punishment.

2:07:19 And so I went over to him and I said, Hey, um I'm gonna be finding Julio Cesar Chavez. You think you can train me? And now ha he's just like what what is this? Like you here. Yeah, looking for the hidden cameras. You got it. That's exactly it.

2:07:38 And then it is called. This guy says he's gonna fight Ulio says their chops everybody in the gym is laughing are you a professional? No. I'd like are you an amateur Well, I had one fight. In the Golden Gloves twenty years ago it didn't turn out. And now

2:07:54 Hild saying like okay, okay. You're really gonna do this, huh? I'll tell you what. You come back tomorrow. Right. Three o'clock.

2:08:04 And we'll do a little workout. And We'll say. So I come back the next day. And this guy he just

2:08:14 Torture me. The whole point was Get out of here. You're not fighting Leo Cesar Chavez. You have no idea what it's like to be a boxer.

2:08:23 A little respect. For the craft here. And After three hours, I'm literally I was reduced to tears.

2:08:30 Again and again and again. And I just Kept going. And I remember

2:08:38 Getting home to my apartment. And like I rang the doorbell. The door opened, I literally collapsed into my wife's arms. And it's like she dragged me. To

2:08:50 The Tab And where Had hot water going. She threw in some Epsom salts and I just like laid in there for like

2:08:58 Three hours. Unable to move. And when I left the gym, everybody in the gym was placing bets. Whether I was gonna come back the next day. And I did.

2:09:08 And that was the first moment where Hey. That's interesting. And he said Okay.

2:09:16 I understand you're right in S for GQ, he was a fashionable guy. So that lured him in. You know, the style element. And he said, So you're really gonna do this. And I said, Yeah, I said, Look.

2:09:27 I'm just asking for one round with Julio Cesar Chavez. One round. That's it. But I'm going out there. And I'm giving it my all. He said, Well look.

2:09:38 Let me show you Ways to get through that round. Now remember, this is a slick boxer. I'm gonna sh teach you how to move. And you will survive.

2:09:46 We can do this. If he's taking this really seriously You're going down. But We don't know how he's gonna react. Maybe he'll be curious.

2:09:55 And I will teach you How to move around the ring. And protect yourself. So that you don't die. Yeah.

2:10:04 And now in my mind I'm also now Thinking. About The fight between Roberto Duran and Sugar A Leonard, I don't know if you remember it was the second fight. No mass. No mass. That's right.

2:10:18 Where In the middle of the fight. We don't know what really happened. It's never fully been explained. In the first fight they had Durant one by decision in Montreal.

2:10:29 And Afterwards. He went back to Panama as a national hero. fifty thousand people waiting for him at the airport and he just had like a three month Binge party.

2:10:40 And gain like fifty pounds. In the meantime, Leonard, after his first loss, Went back home and was like training the next day. For the rematch. So they set it up.

2:10:52 to have an immediate rematch six months later. And After With maybe two months left, Durant started to train. Now he had to take off forty or fifty pounds. He was in no condition to do this, but

2:11:05 He dramatically lost weight. And We'll never know, but he was overweight. A few days before the fight. Now whether he took

2:11:15 X Lacs or something to purge a system. Or whether After he made the way He went out and ate three steaks and a bunch of orange juice and We know that

2:11:27 His stomach was not in the best Of shame. But we also don't know if When he got in the ring. His stomach was bothering him or Leonard.

2:11:39 adopted a style that wouldn't allow Duran to hit him and basically broke Duran mentally. So we don't know if it was his stomach or his mind or both. But midway in the fight Duran basically just throws up his hands and says no mas. No more. No more. And

2:11:54 Leonard celebrates and everybody watching. was in disbelief because for twenty years Roberto Duran had been the appeal Pitomet. of the macho man. He was like Mike Tyson of the lightweig in his era. He just bored straight ahead.

2:12:09 Nothing could stop this guy. He was relentless. And to see him quit. Was What I felt

2:12:17 About my experience in the Golden Gloves. So I basically had to somehow eradicate All that feeling. And I I had to do it in a way

2:12:30 That's Left me with some shred of pride. At the end. So Half says to me, Okay, look, I'm gonna teach you how to move

2:12:38 And he was like very classy. Fighter. And as he's showing me how to move around and avoid punches, I said, No, Harold, no, no, no. It's not not the way we're gonna do this. The first time I got in trouble because I didn't go out throwing punches. And that's how I'm coming out this time.

2:12:59 I'm coming out. Throw punches. And I wanna do it. Just like Joe Frazier. Joe Fray's is a short guy, stocky arms.

2:13:09 Yes. Bobbin weaving coming straight ahead. And Harold says, No, no, no, I'm not gonna do this. Because basically now I'm asking Harold to teach me a style. That is going to bring all of my energy

2:13:26 Full focus, full bore, стрейт аген. Right at one of the most damaging punchers in the incoming missile. That's right. And so He's just fighting with me. Like there's no way I'm I'm not being a party to this. If we do this, we do it smart and you come out alive. Like you're not going in there like all due respect, gal. You're not smoking smoking gal smoking gal, no.

2:13:50 And I said no. I want you to teach me like Joe Freddy said. Okay. You wanna be smoking, Joe? I can teach you how to be smoking chill.

2:14:00 And he pulls out a rope. And he sets it From one the top Of the ropes on one side of the ring to the other. And he makes me start

2:14:09 Bobbing and weaving under this rope. No. Anybody who has never done this before Like after a minute your thighs are burning. And basically

2:14:19 Harold's ideas I will make him do this so long that he Comes to his senses. And fights the way I tell him.

2:14:28 So I can protect them. But I just No matter how much it burned, I just got down low and I just bobbed and weed and moved my head. And then he'd take me to the bags and now he's teaching me how to throw punches'cause I didn't know.

2:14:43 How to do any of this stuff. And then you have to get in the ring. And now like I'm thirty five years old. And all these kids are like nineteen, twenty They love to get in the ring because they want to beat the crap out of me.

2:14:56 And believe me, you know, they were. Because I did not know how to fight. But every day I just kept on going back. I literally trained Like a fighter. It must have been for like four months.

2:15:09 And plus on the other hand, I had a Figure out a way to get Julio Cesar Chavez in the ring with me. It had no idea this. He had no idea that you're in this intensive training camp with no no agreed upon fight. No not a clue. He doesn't know that I exist. And I am training

2:15:26 Three hours every afternoon plus running in the morning. Plus calisthenics at night. Eating just the way Harold's telling me. My weight goes from I was about a hundred sixty five, now I'm down to less than one forty seven.

2:15:40 Closing in on one forty, Chavez fights at one forty. At this point He's eighty seven and oh. With I don't know how many knockouts but I think it was in the eighties. Very high percent. Yeah, very high percent. I remember also just as a side note So I was mystified.

2:15:55 And just captivated by who this is our Shav is that at some point They looked at X rays of his head and his skull's like twice as thick. As normal human beings. So he was used to coming straight at people. Yeah. And absorbing whatever punishment they were dishing out in order to land his shots and

2:16:15 And believe me When Harold Heard that I was doing he said, Look, Cal I know a guy who fought Julio Cesar Chavez. His name is Juan Laporte, okay. Basically

2:16:26 After that fight. Laporte was Pissing blood. For a long time. Because one of Chavez biggest shots was his left hook to the liver.

2:16:37 And he's saying, Like, You don't understand. This is A professional athlete Yeah. The top of his profession.

2:16:45 You know, a lot of guys think, Oh, if I I was out on that football field, I would have made that catch. They you know, they say it professional drop the ball. I would have brought that in. And lots of times they drop passes that The rest of us might have caught. But you don't understand what it's like.

2:17:02 to be up against a professional athlete until you are. Because even these amateur kids were knocking my head off every day. But I just kept on coming back up them steps. Kept on coming back up them steps. Finally

2:17:16 The skinny guy. Writing for Sports Illustrated have been sent to do a story about Julio César Chavez. So while he's out interviewing Julio Cesa Chavez He says to him, Oh, by the way, you know, I got a friend who wants to fight you. Is it okay if he comes and fights you? Julio Sash. Like, send him send him over.

2:17:37 He only wants one round. Fine, fine. It'll be great. So now Julio has said yes. It's like it's like I'm just imagining it's like if you're Second grade self. In a different

2:17:50 Era had written to Tyre Woods being like, My friend in second grade wants to play you in golf. Like, sure, yeah, why not? Send him over. Yeah. Okay. I think and like Julio is a very he's a fun loving guy. So You know, it was maybe he saw it as a joke, I don't know.

2:18:07 And so At this point, it's like months I've been training. No, you look at my body, man. I got a six pack. And now I'm getting in a ring and I was up against an amateur who was really beating me up badly in the beginning.

2:18:22 And then one day he threw a right hand in my head. And I ducked under it. And I clocked him with the right hand. And he just went sprawling backward. And now like

2:18:33 Starting to think, Okay, Julio Are you ready? Are you ready for this? All the people in the gym are laughing that's all Part of Like a community.

2:18:45 Where like what is gonna happen? And so At this point. GQ meanwhile is funding this. They're funding all the training. And they're gonna

2:18:54 Fund my trip to Mexico, they gotta send photographers. They'll send my wife Now I got an entourage. Coming out of Mexico. To fight Julio Cesar Chavez.

2:19:06 And he's training to fight Pernell Whitaker. This is like the biggest fight in his life. And He's actually Not really training that hard. We're supposed to have

2:19:19 Or fight like while he's in training. And I'm saying that he's going to different towns and having parties and so I'm starting to think this is after you arrived. This is after I arrived. So I didn't know. I thought well maybe he's

2:19:34 Normally like this but Something in my mind was saying, man If he's fine Pernell Whitaker, he should be a little more focused than this. So I'm waiting. for this appointed day and

2:19:46 Harold Weston, my trainer. New the president of the World Boxing Council, Jose Sulaman. Who like set up a weigh in? And GQ made me a robe. And like Hu Julio was very amused by all this. If we we went out running one morning and the thing

2:20:02 About it was Julio trains in Toluca, Mexico. High altitude. So that was my first This might be an issue. Yeah, because

2:20:14 I trained really hard. back in New York, but all of a sudden at altitude you're not You're not saying. And so we're running the morning and it comes to this day where, okay, we're gonna do it. So I show up, I got my GQ robe on.

2:20:31 They invited kids from near neighborhood in to come witness this. And like the kids thought like Oh, they this this is a fight. And so Julio is set up. I'm set up.

2:20:42 We're ready to go. The one thing Julio said was look I can't Where eight ounce gloves like you're gonna wear.

2:20:50 Because I'm scared I'm gonna hurt my hands. So my I'm just gonna like wear Training gloves. But uh other than that.

2:20:59 And I said no headgear. I said This is a fight. I'm coming to fight you. So he just wanted to protect his hands.

2:21:06 And so he had these white gloves. I wouldn't call pillowy. But There was cushion in there. Uh twelve or sixteen ounces. Yeah, it it's something. I don't know if they were twelve or sixteen, but they weren't eight like mine. That was the only difference. And

2:21:22 Jose Suleiman. President WBC has the guy ring the bell. And all of a sudden I go charging sh Straight in the style of Joe Frazier, right at Julio Cesar Chavez. He looks at me and he's used to coming straight ahead and

2:21:37 And now he's saying like What's going on? Now here's the thing about this. Harold said to me, Look. You don't understand how good he is, how quick he is.

2:21:48 You have no chance of hitting him. Do you understand me? Like all the work you did. There's only one chance you have. And I'm gonna tell it to you. You listen to me, you listen to me good.

2:21:58 This is the strategy. I want you to throw just like I've been teaching you. Left jam. Right hand, straight right hand. Left hook.

2:22:07 Okay. He's gonna catch those punches. I want you to do it again. Left jam. Straight right hand.

2:22:15 Left hook. He's gonna catch those punches. And I want you to do it again. Left jam. Right hand.

2:22:21 Left hook. And he's gonna catch him again. And I want you to keep on doing that. Again. And again.

2:22:28 And again. Do it twenty times. And then On the twenty first time, if you're still standing,'cause we don't know, he may just hit you in the liver and that's the fight. If you're still standing.

2:22:40 If you do that twenty times in a row. And you're still there. Go left hand. Right hand. And then come back with another right hand.

2:22:51 And so Bell rings. And now he's like circling around trying to figure out like Who is this looning dick coming up me like Joe Frazier, Bobbin, weaving snortin? I mean I could sound like Joe Frazier. But he's so fast that just like Harold says, I throw the left hand, I throw the left jab, he catches it, throw the right hand, he catches it, I throw the left hook.

2:23:11 He catches it. Like the first time I did he said, Okay, I know what you got. And I'm just gonna See How much you can take in a little while.

2:23:23 But We'll play this out. We'll play it out. And so I keep storming in, I keep throwing these three punches. He keeps catching them, he's moving me around.

2:23:32 But I keep throwing these three punches again and again and again. Finally. Two minutes into the round. I go left jab. Right hand.

2:23:41 And then you could almost see him lifting his hand to catch my left hook. And I just throw the right hand and it just socks him in the jaw. And it He looks at me and he sprawls backward as a way of saying uh oh okay you caught me.

2:23:59 Okay, okay, okay. He goes back. Like he staggered. And then he smiles at me and says Okay. Now we're gonna fight. Now we're gonna fight.

2:24:10 He comes in on me. And he throws a left hook to my liver, I'm telling you. It was like Someone took the pipe. Of a Hoover vacuum cleaner.

2:24:21 Attached to the vacuum cleaner that was on full blast sucking up. And just shoved it down my throat. Down to my stomach and it's like my whole stomach is coming up through my mouth. Right?

2:24:33 And I said, And The thing about it was I just started throwing punches back. It was his way of just saying, I'm gonna give you just like a little taste. But now I'm firing back.

2:24:47 Because as bad as I was hurt This was my moment. I had to avenge What happened to me when I'm sixteen years old and I'm fired back. Now he's starting to like now he's starting to hit me. And so Joseph Ding ding ding ding ding ding ding the round's over.

2:25:02 I go back to my corner. My lips are blue. The altitude and that one shot. Literally took everything out of me. But

2:25:11 In my mind. I did I'm here! I did it. And Julio. He's training for his fight.

2:25:18 He looks over at me, says Outro? You want another? And I said. C

2:25:25 Mass. And we did another one. And then in the second round that they really started like He was having fun, but he was starting to tag me pretty good. And you could tell

2:25:36 Jose Suleiman. Is watching this anything? Say. A minute and a half into the round. Ring the bell. Ring the bell. Before we have a gringo casualty on our hands. That's right. And so The bell rings, I go back to the corner and we embrace. He was really wonderful about it. Because

2:25:55 What was cool about what he did. Was he? Treated me Well now that I think about it He treated me like

2:26:05 The system Two President Johnson treated me. He didn't laugh. He saw my punches coming, he saw what I could handle. And then when he s saw that I had like

2:26:19 I foxed him for a s for a second. He said, Okay. I'll lift the game, but I'm not here to Level'em.

2:26:27 And so it was a really like wonderful experience. I mean they they had been teasing my wife, asking her like how much insurance we had and stuff like that. But At the end. You really

2:26:39 rose to a high level in the way he handled the whole thing. Because at the end of it, I walked out of it after going through everything I did. I pushed myself as far as I could go. I got hit in the liver and I came back. So

2:26:52 Now it's just a good story. When you spoke to your wife after The two rounds. Later that night or whenever you actually had a chance to decompress and be by yourselves. How did she describe what was going through her head as she watched You guys.

2:27:06 After the first bell ring. I think she was pretty scared. I think she probably was watching with her hands over her eyes, but with her fingers spread so that she could see.

2:27:20 And I think she was really proud. And you know, the thing about it is you realize It's not So much about winning and losing. Although you know, my kids it it's crazy because

2:27:33 My kids hear the story and they tell their friends and like Junior high school or whatever and And the friends like did he win? They have no concept, but the thing is I did win. Because

2:27:44 I confronted myself. I had to go up those rickety steps every day. I had to get the crap beaten up out of me every day in order to learn. How to duck a punch. And I did.

2:27:56 I pushed myself as far as I could go. And now I get a great story out of it. And there's no more When I talk about the golden gloves, it's just a funny part of the story. It's not something that eats at me anymore. I need that part of the story.

2:28:11 To set up the ending. So I'm thankful that happened to me because without that. Without A I wouldn't have done B, which led to C. That's a healthy way to think about a lot of things, I suppose. If people even if they're not

2:28:25 Storytellers or writers. If they think about their mishaps or some of the Challenges they've had is The part A they needed to set up part B. You know what? It is

2:28:35 A great way of looking at life. And Man, I've taken a beating so many times. And one of the great things about telling stories is When you realize that. Okay. This

2:28:49 Beating I just took. Maybe I can use that to get in advance. From a magazine. To do something cool.

2:29:01 And again and again I use my mistakes Foyballs. humiliating moments to come back and try to Make some sense of them and triumph over those moments. And it's again

2:29:15 You don't have to be perfect, you don't have to win. But you have to look deep inside yourself. And No that I respect myself for this.

2:29:28 And to this day, like I really do. It it gets complicated when people look at The picture I get a big picture at home. I mean Hitting Julio. And people look at it and it looks real.

2:29:40 It looks authentic. It is real. It is real. But it m it lends people to Say what happened? What was the result?

2:29:51 The result was I survived. Yeah. Yeah. So cow There's so many more stories that even if not on tape, I will have to ask you about, but perhaps we'll do a round two. I mean we have to talk at some point about Muhammad Ali.

2:30:04 We have to talk about Trump, we have to talk about De Niro, there's so many other things. The James Beard Award. I mean the list goes on and on, but I know you have a dinner to get to. Do you have a little bit of time for some of my Customary. Rapid fire questions. I love those questions. All right. I hope I have rapid fire answers. They don't have to be so that's the whole twist on the phrasing of the rapid fire questions. The questions can be rapid fire, but your answers can be as long.

2:30:28 as you would like them to be. Or those questions. All right. So the first that I usually start with is when you think of the word successful, who is the first person who comes to mind? And why. And you mentioned him during the course of this interview. There are two people. One is This kid Alex Binayan.

2:30:44 Was twenty three years old. He was in school at USC. And his parents had basically raised him to be a doctor. During Halloween when he was a kid, they would dress him up in scrubs just like get the point? That's where you're headed.

2:31:02 Yeah. And he gets to college. And He's got a stack of biology books next to him. And he he just can't do it.

2:31:11 He's really smart. But he's just not linked to it. And he starts to wonder What am I doing here? Mm.

2:31:21 Going to school at USC, it's a great school. And He starts to wonder about this word success. And he s goes to the library and starts to look at Biographies of people who he deemed to be successful.

2:31:35 To see what the definition of success was. And he's reading biography after biography and he realizes that The book that I'm looking for Doesn't exist. I need to go out.

2:31:49 And to interview these people to find out What they think Successes. And so he did. And on his journey.

2:31:58 Uh one of the people that He went to interview was Larry King. And he actually Met Larry outside of Whole Foods went running down, he saw Larry like Pushing his shopping cart.

2:32:11 Went running down the street. Larry King! Scared the Jesus at him, Larry. And asked if he could interview Larry and Larry invited him to breakfast. And when he arrived. Alex says I'm writing a book.

2:32:24 And Larry said to Alex. Well, if you're writing a book then you should talk to this guy. You should talk to Cal'cause He's written two of my books with me. And

2:32:35 He can help you. So Alex did get to sit down to talk with Larry, but I became very close with Alex at that point. So when I think of success. I think of everything Alex

2:32:48 was trying to find out. That's one. The second Is Another box is George Foreman. Who

2:32:56 You might remember Mobite Boxer. Really? Oh yeah. Okay. The old George.

2:33:04 With a Bigger Mike Tyson. Oh my God, terrifying. Tyson was what, six feet maybe? George Foreman was six three. Two twenty.

2:33:13 And just had a string of vicious knockouts. And won the heavyweight title by knocking Joe Frazier down six times. One time, he literally hit him with an uppercut. And uprooted Joe Fraser like he was a tree stump.

2:33:29 A superhero movie. For people I'm sure you can find footage of it, but if you look at George Foreman, Fraser. You know, knock down or knock out. I mean just the footage is unbelievable. And You're looking at somebody there.

2:33:43 Who George Foreman grew up In a very tangled situation. His personality

2:33:51 Living in poverty. He would Go to school in the mornings with a brown paper bag that had no food in it. And he would blow it up. To make it look like there was food in it so the other he wouldn't be embarrassed in front of the other kids.

2:34:05 On top of that His siblings, his sisters. We'd make fun of him. He was younger, they would say, You a Mohead. You and Mohan!

2:34:15 And George Foreman had no idea what a Mohead meant. But he knew it wasn't good. And He would hear that and he would chase his sisters around when he heard You are Mohead, you were Mohead. And finally, years later.

2:34:27 He grew up. And he found out what they were saying. George Foreman's mom was married to mister Foreman. But they separated for a while. While they were separated.

2:34:39 Her mom went off with a guy named Leroy Moorhead. Conceive George. Conceive George. And then went back to Mr Foreman. And so When he was born.

2:34:53 His Siblings who are foremans were calling you a Mohead. You a Mohead. And so there was this angry part of George. Very angry. To the point where

2:35:03 He told me People would be scared. To ask him for an autograph. When He would

2:35:10 Walk into a place People would look down. And He had this surliness was a big part of his demeanor. And

2:35:19 When he went to fight Muhammad Ali in Zaire, he was the undefeated champ. People feared for Ali's life. And in fact Ali would not watch George Foreman hit the heavy bag. It was too scary. This guy could hit that hard.

2:35:33 And What Ali saw was George Foreman had so much anger in him. That when he came out, he just came out to bludgeon whoever was in front of him. And Ali had a sense

2:35:45 That if he could make form and expend his energy And not land those punches, just have them punches come off his arms. If he could infuriate Foreman. to the point where farming lost his cool

2:35:59 And punched himself out. He figured out a way to win. And naturally, in the heat of Africa It was basically Ali set this thing up perfectly. Foreman arrived.

2:36:11 With a German shepherd. Not knowing That The Zyrians had in their history

2:36:19 A memory of German shepherds being brought in by the Belgians. To Keep him under control. So the Zarans immediately hated George Foreman. And

2:36:30 A chat. Grew out of it. Ali Bumay, Ali kill him. And the bell rang. And George Foreman came at Ollie and Ollie didn't move. He just Kept his back against the ropes with his hands up. This was the ropa dove? This was the rope a dope.

2:36:44 And George Foreman is just slugging away. And Ollie would like open his guard up just a little say, Is that all you got? Foreman just getting more and more infuriated. Just punch after punch, first round, second round. Those of us who are watching And I was watching on closed circuit television.

2:37:03 And a big screen in Saint Louis at the time. You almost crying because You were screaming at Ali get out of the way, dance, do something. We couldn't see what was happening. That he was just he kept talking to George. We couldn't hear him talking. Oh man, that's it? That's all you got?

2:37:18 Foreman is just throwing shot after shot after shot, and then all of a sudden in like the fourth round. You see Foreman throw a shot and Ali just duck under it and then Yes. Throw a jab straight back in Foreman's face and Foreman's head snap back. And we realize

2:37:36 Oh my god. He's punched himself out. As if I continue a few more rounds, Ali nails them in one right hand and it's so hot. Foreman's exhausted. Ali nails him with a right hand, Foreman goes down.

2:37:49 Can't beat the count. And he's crushed. It must be akin to To what Ronda Rousey For for those who are like younger.

2:37:57 And watch mixed martial arts. What Ronda Rousey went through. After her recent defeat. You think somebody is invincible. And then all of a sudden one head kick later. That's right. And

2:38:10 George Foreman. for like twenty years could never get another title shot. He retired. And He did something, and he told me what he did.

2:38:21 And he said this is the hardest thing when you talk about success. I asked him a question about success. And he said The hardest thing you can do is In life is to change your character.

2:38:33 And basically In his early forties He came back to boxing. But he was completely different. He was no longer the surly guy.

2:38:44 He was a guy who would do ads for eating hamburgers. Smiling. And laughing. Now correct if I'm wrong, I remember his

2:38:52 I wanna say I remember his comeback sort of uh promotional videos where he'd be going for his boxing run and people would be handing him food. That's right. And he starts his comeback at I think more than three hundred pounds. Big guy. And he's in his forties. But it's what he changed in his head. Now

2:39:13 He was smiling. What did he do to change that? He realized That surliness And that anger Is what brought him down.

2:39:24 Against Muhammad Ali, right? So Fast forward. He's forty five years old. And he gets a heavyweight title fight.

2:39:33 Against a guy twenty years younger named Michael Moore. Oh, I remember. Sappa. South Pawnee. Who is much faster? Little lighter.

2:39:42 But should be able to move around, George, with ease and just But punches into George's face without George being able to respond. But here's the thing.

2:39:52 Foreman came into the ring. Wearing the exact red trunks That he was wearing. When Ali hit him and put him down. And

2:40:03 When Moore's Trainer saw that, he recognized it. And thought. Uh oh. So something's up here.

2:40:11 And basically George Rearranged his character. And Moore the first nine rounds is completely outboxed them, moved around.

2:40:23 George just kept his hands up, tried to land. Could barely even land. And his face started to get swollen and The tenth round started and his trainer Who?

2:40:35 Coincidentally. was Angelo Dundee, Muhammad Ali's trainer. Who is in the opposing corner inside here? Basically said to him, George. You're way behind.

2:40:45 You gotta do something. And George just kept Moving forward. And Without wasting energy just saw one moment.

2:40:55 And he threw a right hand and he still had the power. He still had everything that he had and When he was young, power wise, And he clipped Moyer straight on the jaw. And Michael Moore went down.

2:41:07 And couldn't beat the count. And Foreman went over to the corner. Got down on his knees, thank the Lord. And to me That

2:41:17 Воз а символов сусіс пікас He needed to change who he was. In order to have that Success. And he did it.

2:41:27 At forty five. So That's the best answer I can give you. Uh. Love George Foreman. This just reinvigorated so much more.

2:41:36 Enthusiasm about it Learning more about George. And I remember it brings back so many memories'cause I remember that fight also I wanna say George used what Wanna say was the crab Defense. In other words, he didn't hold his

2:41:51 forearms together perpendicular to the floor, but they were cr kinda crossed over in front of his face. Such a good story. Well it was all designed to he knew he was gonna endure punishment. And he knew he had to do it in a way that expended the least amount of energy And he knew he just had to put himself in the right position to land that one shot. So

2:42:12 It's a beautiful story to see somebody Take their weakest point. And Do something within themselves. Two

2:42:23 Change who they are. And the The history repeats itself, irony of that. fight that he won also is that Michael was known as a very angry guy. Had a criminal Records.

2:42:34 And Probably lost for some of the same reasons. That's right. In fact, I'd have to go back and watch the fight, but I'm sure His trainer who was like aware was probably saying, You know You're way ahead.

2:42:47 Take it easy. Stay away. And he probably Said, What are you crazy? I got this under control.

2:42:55 Boom, one shot. Yeah. Incredible. What is uh the book or books that you've given most As gifts.

2:43:03 Other than your own. Which obviously for people listening, you know that I'll link to everything in the show notes as well. Hard question to answer because it's almost like wine. Every meal You're going to have another experience with Different people.

2:43:20 Different food. So if I meet Somebody I like to give books that I've loved. And like I mentioned Meeting Alex and

2:43:31 He says to me, I won't he didn't know how to write a book. And he's I I want to write a great book. You could just tell it was bursting out of him. And so I gave him uh Gabriel Garcia Marquez's a hundred years of solitude. For him to know okay.

2:43:46 If you've never written a book and you're gonna tell somebody you wanna Write a great book. All right. Read this. And know what a great book is.

2:43:54 And so My gifts tend to Judge what the person needs. And then fill that need. So And then no different in wine. If somebody's having a steak.

2:44:05 I'm probably not gonna give them a reefling. I'll give them something to compliment the stake. If you So I give you more specific circumstance. So let's say that someone came to you and they said, You know what? I'm a board billionaire.

2:44:17 And I wanna give three books to every graduating. High school senior. In the country this year. Wow. What a question.

2:44:26 Okay. One book. That people should read. And in fact I got it with me right now. One of the blurbs on this book.

2:44:37 Actually says As Tony Morrison, this is required reading. Wow. So endorsement. Yeah. And Tony Morrison's Great.

2:44:46 African American writer. And this book is called Uh Between the World and Me. And it's by a guy named Ta Nahisi Coates. And It's a letter to his son.

2:44:59 About being A black male in America. And I think it is required reading just because if we want to understand what is going on. We

2:45:10 We see what's happening in Ferguson, Missouri. It just seems like it's so month after month after month. We see protests and and problems. And this is just a way Uh

2:45:23 Redirecting your eyesight. to And it's an amazing thing. About this book because As I'm reading it

2:45:35 I was walking down the street. And I passed a news box with the Los Angeles Times in it. And On the front page there was this statistic that

2:45:47 That said that Basically every juvenile That's incarcerated in in the state of California? It costs us two hundred sixty thousand dollars a year. And you're any Ivy League education.

2:46:03 And think of that. If if you took that money And put it into Lifting that same kid. Who knows what would happen?

2:46:13 You know, there's DNA involved. There there's a lot of stuff involved, but It just made me realize why Aren't we putting the resources in before Rather than just Paying this money out we don't even know.

2:46:30 That we're putting it out. And so it's just a book that makes you see the world differently. Another book that I would recommend it's a book that I'm reading now. And just for those people

2:46:42 Wondering between the world and Maine, this is a short book. This is about a hundred and thirty pages national book award winner. I will order that as soon as we finish this. Chat. Second but Is it okay if I give you two,'cause these two are coming. I can do two.

2:46:56 Just because these are two that I'm reading now. So it's just how do I have to press. It's a book called Speak Like Churchill. Stand like Lincoln.

2:47:09 I'm carrying it around with me as well. This is amazing. Yeah. You hit me at the right time with this question. It's written by James C. Hume. And there's

2:47:20 For anyone who wants to speak And if you're a a high school senior, at some point you're gonna have to get up and speak. It's a great book because there's all kinds of tips. On Everything about speaking.

2:47:35 Subtitled Twenty One Powerful Secrets of History's Greatest Speakers. There's this great anecdote in this book that really helped me as I was preparing to give my speech. Because it's hard to memorize a speech. And then I'm reading about Ronald Reagan. Known as a great communicator, American president.

2:47:54 Well, you know, when he spoke, he riveted people. And when he was a young man Again, we're talking about Basically the same age As the people you just mentioned, what would you recommend for the high school senior?

2:48:07 Actually Reagan was just getting out of college. And he got a job in radio in Iowa. And he was very good conversationally on the air, but then It came time to read the advertisements. And for some reason he was so stiff.

2:48:25 And Awkward. Reading these advertisements that the advertisers basically say get'em off the air. And they fired him.

2:48:34 And he he w went back to his room and he's like feeling horrible about it because he loved being on the radio. You love communicating. And he wondered what can I do? In order to get my job back. So

2:48:49 I guess F DR was doing the fireside chats, and he realized how riveting those were So he got those chats. And he started to read them, but what he did was He would look at the words. And then

2:49:07 Like almost memorized the phrase in his head. Then look up and then say the words conversationally. So he wasn't trying to memorize them. By reading it off the page. He would just Take a few of the words.

2:49:20 Then look up, give you those words. Look down, he would never speak while he was looking down. And then He went back to radio. And that's how he did his advertisements and it worked.

2:49:31 So it's a great it's it the book is just filled with little tips like that. That will make it so much easier for anybody. Who's gotta get Up and give a speech. I am going to get another book for my list.

2:49:47 Do you have any favorite documentaries or movies? You know It's a really interesting question. I probably would have Told you That

2:49:56 There's a movie Cinema Paradiso. Great film. Okay. I would mention that, but something happened to me recently. Where a documentary and a movie came together. That provided this amazing experience. The documentary was called Man on Wire.

2:50:12 And it was about Philip Petit's walk on a wire across the towers of the World Trade Center. And it's amazing documentary. everything that he had to go through to Almost like a spy. Or an espionage agent.

2:50:26 Figure out. How to get up on the roof. We're not even talking about how do you Walk a rope. That's one thing. But then to

2:50:35 wonder how do you get to the top of the world trade center as it's being built. And Get a wire from one side to the other to stabilize it at night. When nobody's watching And the documentary takes you through the whole thing. It's just amazing. And the way that they pieced it together with the alternating

2:50:55 Sort of black and white. reenactments, just the cinematography and the pacing is genius. Yeah, it's definitely my favorite documentary, but then Last year. Robert Semekis Did a movie called The Walk.

2:51:09 Is that uh Joseph Gordon Levitt? That's right. I haven't seen it yet. Oh. You here's the thing. I saw this movie Nine times. The walk. The walk. I saw this movie nine times, but you gotta see it.

2:51:21 On three D IMAX. Because One of the innovative things about this film on three D I Max is you literally feel Like you are on the wire. I mean people

2:51:34 left the theater vomiting. I knew everything about that story. Because As you mentioned, I worked at Windows of the World, so

2:51:46 When I was serving wine at the top of Windows of the World, every day I was looking down Uh Basically what Philip Petit was looking down at When he was

2:51:57 Crossing this wire. And I seen the documentary, so I knew that basically not only did he walk on the wire, but But he lay down on the wire on his back. Unbelievable. And then the police are coming. And the police had been like haunting him for years'cause wherever he would try and

2:52:14 juggle or walk the wire. in order to get people to give change, they would be trying to chase him away. And so we had this cat and mouse game going with the police all these years and now he's on the wire. More than a hundred stories above New York City and the police are there and they can't touch him.

2:52:31 And he can do whatever he wants on this wire. And so like the tables are turning and yet In this movie When he steps on that wire, I knew everything that was gonna happen on that walk. I'm begging him. No, don't do it! Don't do it. Please don't do it.

2:52:51 I completely suspended my disbelief and let me tell you how much. I started taking people. Like night after night to see this movie. Again and again. Because I wanna gauge their reactions and gave them motion sickness pills beforehand. I told I warned him, I said if if

2:53:07 You gotta fear heights don't come. Go watch Robert De Niro and The Apprentice or whatever they Call that movie. What hit me was there's this one scene in the movie Where he's learning how to

2:53:18 Walk the tight rope. And this is back in France, it's where he's from. And He's like two steps away from getting back to the platform. And he

2:53:30 slips and has to catch the wire with his hand and he's Like fifty feet above ground or something. And he manages to Get back to the platform. And he comes down and his teacher

2:53:42 is there. And it's Teacher basically says to him. It's the last two steps. The people who die?

2:53:50 They die in those last two steps. Remember that. And in fact Philippe Petit was paying him to get those lessons. And

2:53:58 When Philippe Petit went to give him money for that lesson. The teacher said, No, this lesson you get for free. This doesn't cost you anything. So I knew I knew this story cold. I'd read his book, I'd seen the documentary many times, and I'm watching this film.

2:54:14 And When he falls down Early on to get that lesson, it shot in a way where the pole is Literally comes out of the screen right at your head.

2:54:26 Okay. So the first time you're just Swooning not swooning, you're swaying immediately, like to the right or the left, get out of the way. Okay. So now I'm watching the second time. I know this poll is coming at my head. Every time! On the ninth time!

2:54:41 Polles coming straight at my head, I'm ducking out of the way. It was that Vceral. and experienced and the direction was just amazing. I love the acting.

2:54:52 And so if you can see that movie Uh Three D IMAX. Please do it's it's just wonderful. Well, I guess I'll put out a call

2:55:03 or a request to perhaps the people involved with making that film if they happen to be listening or if you know the people involved. Since People might not get to see the theatrical release in three D. Talk to the people working. with virtual reality. Get in touch with the Oculus folks or

2:55:19 Some of these other studios. Dacchi or whomever might be able to Translate some of this to an immersive experience for folks. That's coming down the pipe too. Wow, that'd be beautiful. You know, I feel like we're just gonna have to do a round two sometime, but I I'll ask you Hey you know, I'm gonna come back any time, I'll uh I'll I'll ask I'll ask three more. Okay.

2:55:38 If you could have a billboard anywhere. With anything on it. Who would you put on it? One word. Listen.

2:55:45 Listen. I don't know what reaction that would get. But I would like to See the reaction. On people's faces.

2:55:54 When they saw that. Because I Think that Listening is not an art form. Well, it is an art form. People just aren't Using it as an art form, but it is an art form.

2:56:05 And A lot of great things can be achieved through listening. What advice would you give your Thirty year old self, and if you could place us again. Where you were.

2:56:15 At thirty. Okay. I would not Give myself one word of advice and I'll tell you why. Because if I would have given myself That advice at thirty.

2:56:27 It would have moved me maybe one centimeter. In one direction. That put my life in a different place. And

2:56:36 I needed To be On a very specific seat. On a very specific Bus

2:56:46 At a very specific time. In order to meet The woman that became my wife. And as the mother of my kids. So

2:56:55 I couldn't have that moved in any way. I I needed everything to happen just the way it did. In order to have that moment in order to have the rest of my life.

2:57:05 So After that, I'm sure there are times where I have given myself advice. Really? What The time I need advice.

2:57:13 was when I was in college. And there was so much offered. And So little I took advantage of. What would your advice be to either your kids or to people

2:57:25 Going into college. They say. Okay. What should I take? I just don't even know what to do with myself. Okay. Paradox of choice. Can't figure it out.

2:57:36 If They want to travel? You get a chance to learn like four languages. Five languages. And

2:57:45 It's gonna be so relaxed, All you gotta do is just Go into the class and then Me Somebody from the opposite sex who speaks language.

2:57:55 And you're gonna be going out and talking in the new language and You could do that over and over again in college. You got that time. One of the things If it was me Knowing that I wanted to be a writer.

2:58:09 Or knowing that I'm now gonna be speaking. And I'm going to be speaking about questions that People ask when they're hiring. I would love

2:58:21 Two have studied human behavior. Because I know That when A company is looking To fill a job.

2:58:30 If the person doing the interview understands the role that needs to be filled. And understands human behavior is They can ask questions to the applicants. That will fill that role.

2:58:44 In a really good way. That's my hunch. Have you ever heard of it? The story of the book that Newt Gingrich used to navigate politics at least one that he's credited with a lot of Whatever success he's had, chimpanzee politics. I'm not kidding. I am not kidding. I'm gonna write that one down. I'm gonna go home and order it. I am not kidding. So what about as a writer or to a kid who's graduating from college and says to

2:59:12 Himself or herself. Now should I go on to get my M FA or continue to say go to uh specialty journalism school. Or writing school. If they'd only taken maybe one or two classes. That required a lot of writing.

2:59:26 What advice would you give to them? I would tell them Just Right. And

2:59:32 The great thing about it is okay the I'm not knocking the schooling because as we talked about earlier, I owe everything. to the University of Missouri Journalism School. It set me on my way and then the connections. On the other hand

2:59:47 All you need To do to be a writer is to write. And not only that, but all you need to do is to find places that are interested in taking your writing. Doesn't have to be for much money. But you can go out, especially now.

3:00:02 You don't even need A physical publication. Now you can just create a blog on the internet. Just start writing. So

3:00:10 I would advise people to j if you want to be a writer. Right. And just keep writing and keep writing. If you have the means and the will to go to school and get a teacher Or teachers that can help you through?

3:00:25 Even better. But nothing should really Stop you from writing and you shouldn't use Well I need to go to school. First. As an excuse to put off writing.

3:00:36 I need to make the school make me right. You make you right. Yeah. If you don't have that intrinsic motivation, it's gonna be hard to Yeah. That's right. And not only that. The other thing is just Put yourself in a position where you have no money.

3:00:54 Then you need to Write something to make money. If you need to eat. And you know, unless you can find a bar that's putting out olives and little chicket fingers. You're gonna write and

3:01:06 Get paid so that you can eat. I remember talking to a friend of mine who's Journalist writes for Number of very well known newspapers and uh He always laughs when he

3:01:18 When he has to listen to Book authors like myself. Sort of winge and Pontificate about writer's block and he just scoffs at the whole idea. He's like, I don't have the luxury of having writer's block. He's like, I have a deadline, a deliverable of whatever it is, you know, four PM, five PM. He's like, no, I can't Muse about the subtleties of writer's block.

3:01:39 'Cause he I mean he has to ship. Like he has to he has to ship words every day. Whatever it might be every week. What are your thoughts on Writer's Block? No, I only had it once. Okay. I only had it once. And uh what happened was

3:01:54 I was writing for Esquire. And Working on A column called The Perfect Man.

3:02:03 Basically in line with this conversation. I was going to take all my flaws and all my mistakes and then go to experts. Who were going to teach me how to overcome them. And then I was gonna write about the experience so that everybody could have the collected wisdom. And so I learned how to walk.

3:02:19 through using Alexander technique. I learned how to publicly speak by going in a boxing ring with Michael Buffer and announcing a fight. I learned how to lose weight. By going to Jack Lane, who was the exercise champion of of his day.

3:02:39 And I w we went through learned how to barbecue through Stephen Reichlin, author of the Barbecue Bible. And one of the last things I did was Go to learn about wine. Because

3:02:50 If you are Or a man You wanna have a feeling that You can go into a restaurant with a group of people The wine list comes to you and you don't

3:03:00 Feeling Oh man. What am I gonna do? I don't know what's what here and and then You don't know if the waiter is gonna try and unload a lousy bottle. that they can't sell on you or about for a lot of money, you're you're helpless.

3:03:16 So I wanted to learn Enough to know. how to walk into a restaurant with confidence and order what I want. And the solution to that was to Be trained to be the Samalier for a night. At Windows of the World, which sold for a time more wine than any other restaurant on the planet.

3:03:35 at the top of the World Trade Center. And I had no idea. Where this adventure was Going to send me.

3:03:42 But it took me two years to learn all about wine. 'Cause you they then find out you have to go to these places where they make the wine. And you have to understand the the difference between All of the varietals and The wine lesser windows of the world.

3:03:57 It was just Hundreds of pages. To know all all those wines it was is almost impossible, but you s start to get an idea. And I had World class Samali's teaching me?

3:04:11 And for one night I was the Somalier at Windows on the World. is amazing experience. Well one of the great things I did is I had a guy who I knew come in. He brought his wife.

3:04:22 It's like the first Couple. of the evening and I seated them right next to a window, so you're looking down. On New York. From

3:04:32 A hundred and six stories or whatever. And I had a bottle of champagne, Lord champagne from France, and Which It basically was like a ten dollar bottle of champagne.

3:04:44 But Nobody knew that. And this had been served at the Assembly Nationale in in France. It was like Basic bottle of champagne.

3:04:55 But I took it out to their couple, they were celebrating their anniversary. And I walked over with a flourish and I announced that I was serving Lord. Do champagne. And that it had never been served at these heights before.

3:05:08 And it would never be served at these heights again. Looks at me, she didn't know who I was, her husband did. And She's like

3:05:18 Broke out in tears. And then the husband had never tasted the champagne before, but they both aborted it. They both put it up and It's oh cow like We never knew what champagne was before this moment. And it it teaches you that the wine and the moment

3:05:35 Are inextricably linked. And I can take a great moment and make a great wine out of it. And I can take a great wine and make a great moment out of it. In any event It was great, but it was all it was profound, it was also funny.

3:05:50 I'd spill wine on people's as down a glass'cause I had to be moving really quick. There was a lot of people. And uh I ah I that's inexcusable. That should never happen here.

3:06:03 That bottle is on the house. And everybody at the table Oh this is great. And people at the adjacent tables are saying Come over here, spill some here. Spill some here. And we we get through the night, it's a delightful time, and Really memorable. Now I go home to write the story and I start to go through my notes'cause it's taken me two years to get This experience.

3:06:26 And The planes crash into the World Trade Center. And I remember going to the Brown zero like a week later.

3:06:36 the military took me around in Homby. And Like I still was so Overwhelmed. That

3:06:46 I was almost knocked out when I saw it. Because I remember seeing like It was this thin C Of white

3:06:55 Dust over everything. And you could see on a in a Parking lot. Yes. coat of dust over the cars and I actually

3:07:04 Said Guy in the army who was Taking me around. I said. Why don't those people come back and get their cars?

3:07:12 And he put his hand on my shoulder and he said, Cal Those cars don't have any owners anymore. And It's very hard to explain the enormity of But I just couldn't write.

3:07:24 How can I translate this experience? Uh Utter joy. Learning all about this amazing beverage that transformed lives. Meeting all these friends along the way, wherever you would go.

3:07:38 It was like travelling around the world again. It would just open up a party. And that party would Invite you to another party. And another party and another party.

3:07:48 And so there I am. having this amazing experience and then on top of it For one night I was the Somali. And not only that, but at the end Or toward the middle of the night.

3:07:59 Somebody like people were pressing twenty dollars in my hand, they thought I was really the Somalier. Yeah. And A few days later. somebody who came in that night and they nobody knew that I wasn't the s real Somali.

3:08:13 Somebody came in like three days later and asked for me. And so I was feeling so good about the experience and right after that The planes came in. And took the towers down.

3:08:24 And now I Gotta write the story about this. And the editor. He now knows he's basically bankrolled this thing for two years. Same guy who bankrolled me going up against Julio Cesar Chavez.

3:08:37 Bankroll the wine story I'm flying around the world, A speed. The wines in France, wines in Italy, there were wines in Germany. Going to California. And he allowed me to go through the whole experience.

3:08:50 And now He knows. Something Amazing has got to come out of this. Because

3:08:59 I saw how much he put in. And we all know this seminal moment in American history. So he's gotta step up to it. And I couldn't I would stare in front of the computer for hours at a time.

3:09:13 And nothing would Would come out. Like my eyes would be bleeding. And Every time I would go have to go into the office to see the editor

3:09:23 Like I knew. We both knew. Like where's the story? Where's the story? Years started passing.

3:09:31 And He started to do Things to Try to like help me. And push it out of me.

3:09:37 Whether it was light hearted or hey. You know? It's like years now. The movie Sideways, which is about wine had come out. Wine is really hot now, now is the time!

3:09:48 So the editor. is really trying to push the story out of me in The best way he can. Might be lighthearted with a little offhanded joke. It might be

3:09:59 Hey. Mm. It's years now. We're waiting for the story. Movie Sideways comes out, it's a big hit in the wide wine world. And now he's saying, you know, this is the time that the story needs to come out. I can't do it.

3:10:11 I go to the computer Almost night after night. And It's the most painful thing. Because

3:10:19 I never had writer's block. Or But there was just nothing that would come out of me. It just wasn't re like a wine that wasn't ready to be served. It needed to be in the barrel. Only you don't know how long it needs to be in the barrel. And you're feeling all this guilt.

3:10:36 And finally I just took all my I had these Copious notes. In boxes. And I put them down in the basement just Okay, let me just get it out of my face.'Cause every time

3:10:48 I would go into my office, I would see these boxes and I would just Flinch. Oh it seems like a huge just anxiety trigger. Yeah. undone homework assignment that your boss has basically bankrolled for

3:11:04 A couple of years. And so You basically know that You can't go in With any more big ideas?

3:11:14 Until That is completed. And so it really affected me, but there was nothing I could do about it. And I put these notes away in the basement. And then we had this

3:11:27 Terrible ice storm. I was living in North Carolina at the time. And Everything turned into mold. In my basement. And all the notes.

3:11:37 Get black. Uh So I had like no And no notes of anything. Basically everything had been wiped out.

3:11:47 My notes were ground zero. Afterward. And now like how am I gonna do this? But you know It was a writer.

3:11:55 Taught me something very early in my career. His name was Harry Cruz. I don't know if you've ever heard him. No. Wrote a book called Feast of Snakes and If you're a young man and Yeah, Harry Cruz also w wrote. If you're a young man.

3:12:09 And Don't even know how this book would translate now. But It was a real kind of macho. Beast of snakes.

3:12:19 He wrote another book called Car About a Guy Eating a Car. This guy was out there. And As soon as I read these books

3:12:29 I just it's I gotta meet this guy. I gotta meet this guy. So I started to tell people, uh you know, I'm gonna go meet Harry Cruz. Mm. People started looking at me saying

3:12:40 Are you sure? I said, Well what do you mean? And he said, Well His drinking is legendary. Plus The amount of drugs that he puts in his body.

3:12:48 You're not gonna be able to stay with this guy. You're gonna hurt yourself. And so naturally I get in my car, I drive twenty Straurs down to Gainesville, Florida. This is when I was living in New York.

3:13:00 And I go and drive right up to his house. And Knock on the door. And there's no response.

3:13:07 Knock again, no response. And I can almost hear like a snoring. So I just open the door. My God, Florida.

3:13:17 And Harry is laid out. On a Lazy boy chair. With like an empty bottle of rum on his belly. And

3:13:28 I get it. Get close to him and he just His head is just m moving round, he's like getting himself out of sleep. He's a But what he wants it like Harry?

3:13:37 I just read Feast Snakes. I just drove twenty hours. Straight to see you. Well Why don't you drive over to Gator Gulch and let's get us some alcohol?

3:13:50 A drive over the Gator Gulch. And I think that was what was called, something like that. And They've already got like a

3:13:58 Carton. Filled with alcohol. The usual. I come back and we start drinking and like naturally after a little while

3:14:10 I just been driving for twenty hours. And now I'm drinking and And I'm starting to float away and he is getting more lucid. And This is before the drugs came out.

3:14:21 And I said to him. Harry You're a writer. Do you keep a diary?

3:14:29 How can you drink like this, And do all these drugs. And remember anything. And he looked at me and he smiled and he said Boa

3:14:39 The good shit sticks. And it was that line That save me. When I needed to write the wine story. Because I always knew

3:14:50 The good shit sticks. The moments that were truly great. Were the moments that I needed. And Almost ten years passed. And

3:15:02 In a chance meeting with a woman who was in a position it was a terrible position. She loved her husband. Her husband had died. She was alone.

3:15:13 Time had passed. She was ready. To go out and meet somebody again. And she said, I like I'm older, I've never really Dated, I don't I don't know what to do. And I said to her

3:15:24 Join a wine class. Because You will meet people And just by the way they talk about their wines You're gonna know if you should like'em or not.

3:15:35 And she said, Wow, that's g that's a good idea. And Something in that conversation. Opened up A pathway.

3:15:45 And then I was sitting I went to a bar And I'm sitting down And remember, this whole thing started With me just wanting to be able to Give somebody instruction.

3:15:56 When The wine list came before me, I could Give the weight instruction, this is what I want. Without Feeling like I didn't know what I was doing.

3:16:06 So I have this conversation with the women and couple of nights later I said, You know what? Let me Let me just write down The good shit. The good shit that's stuck.

3:16:17 And I'm sitting at a bar And I'm writing down all the stuff the good shit that stuck. And Bartenders pouring drinks. And a waiter

3:16:27 Came back. With a Italian dessert wine. And So white wine.

3:16:36 And the waiter said to the bartender The people they they don't like it. They say it's there's something wrong with it. And so it was Vincent Santo. And so

3:16:46 The bartender was a young guy and he I think that he really didn't know much about wine. He was he was like a college kid. To the bartender. And so He said, Well look, you know It's not cheap.

3:17:00 And I said Wait a minute, let me let me smell that wine,'cause he brought the wine back. I said pour me a glass. And so I swell it around.

3:17:09 I put it up to my nose and I said No, it's no good. And the way I said it I must have said it with such conviction that the bartender said, Oh okay. You said it the same way that Jesus said his name to you in the locker room. That's right. That's exactly it. I knew This wine was no good. And so the bartender said to me, Well

3:17:28 Like how'd you know and We got into a conversation And he had told me that He was had been in a choir. He was he said I'm I'm not really a bartender. And

3:17:39 He explained that when he was young he was a singer. And he had actually gone to the Vatican and and sang in a choir for the Pope. So I say okay, fine. Then you understand this.

3:17:49 When you put that wine to your nose, All right. Listen to it. You can tell That

3:17:56 As there's something Certainly in the taste, maybe you can get it from the smell. It starts out okay, but there's Somebody singing off key in there. And I don't know if it's the way the wine was stored.

3:18:09 But In the middle of that taste of wine. Are off key notes. And I don't know.

3:18:17 Maybe the wine was a little cork. Maybe it was just the way they stored it. But as soon as he heard that, like he realized that It translated for him in Okay, when somebody in the choir's got a voice

3:18:30 That isn't hitting What the rest of us are hitting. It's a problem. And he understood that. And

3:18:37 He looked at me. And he said, Thanks. And I knew that was the end of the story. And as soon as he said it I went to the keyboard and I wrote the whole thing out.

3:18:47 Do you recall the title of the business? Yeah, it's called uh drinking at thirteen hundred feet. Drinking at thirteen hundred feet. Yeah. Cal

3:18:56 You're a great man. You're a very, very generous person. And I want to let you get to your dinner. And would love to direct people to where they can find you and more about you because you've spent A lifetime.

3:19:11 Gathering. Unearthing and telling other people's stories. Some of your own, but I wanna hear. More and more of these stories. Next time I feel like we should have some wine. Next time we will do this for wine. But where can people find you?

3:19:28 Online. Okay, they can go to Calfussman dot com. That's C A L F U S S M A N. Dot com dot com and Send a message. I'm just

3:19:38 Listening to some stories or getting tips on interviewing. Or tips on interviewing for a job? I'm here. Go to the website and they can click on the contact form or something like that to let you know are you on social media at all?

3:19:54 Not really. This is all like a new adventure for me. I don't even know how to promote myself. It's just happening. Maybe I can give you the uh choir a cappella analogy version of this type of thing. Cal, this is so much fun. I always love our conversations and As always, thank you so much for taking the time. It's a beautiful experience. I hope we have many more in Let me tell you something.

3:20:19 You are really good at what you do. Thank you. Well, I'm standing on the shoulders of giants and you've been very, very generous with with your time and with your advice. So I really do appreciate it. And for everybody listening Thank you for listening.

3:20:34 Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just one more thing before you take off, and that is Five Bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend? Between one and a half and two million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter called Five Bold Friday. Easy to sign up, easy to cancel. It is basically a half page that I send out. every Friday to share the coolest things I've found or discovered or have started exploring over that week. It's kinda like my diary of cool things. It often includes articles I'm reading, books I'm reading. albums perhaps, gadgets, gizmas, all sorts of tech tricks and so on that get sent to me by my friends, including a lot of podcast guests, and these strange esoteric things end up in my field, and then I test them and then I share them with you. So if that sounds fun, again, it's very short, a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend, something to think about. If you'd like to try it out, just go to Tim.blog slash Friday. Type that into your browser, Tim.blog slash.

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