#853: Jordan Jonas, Champion of Alone — The Art of Survival, Lessons from Nomadic Tribes, Hardship as the Path to Peace, How to Handle Rogue Wolverines, and Why Not to Photograph Attacking Bears

0:00 Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferris. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris Show, where it is my job to deconstruct world-class performers, people who are incredibly good, possibly the best in the world, at what they do. My guest today is Jordan Jonas. I spent a week in the woods with Jordan with a few of my closest friends. doing survival training and all of my friends said you have to have Jordan on the podcast. So here we are. Who is Jordan? Jordan grew up on a farm in Idaho, rode freight trains across the US hence his Instagram at Hobo Jordo, spent time in remote Russians, fur trapped and traveled for years with nomads in Siberia, and won alone season six, one of the few reality T V shows that I actually watch. Because you learn so much. And he won that after being the first contestant to truly thrive in the wilderness, in this case in the Arctic, for 77 days and harvest.

0:56 Big game. It's a crazy story. We get into it. He now leads people from all over the world, including yours truly, and all walks of life on extraordinary outdoor adventures, facilitating once in a lifetime wilderness expeditions, hunts, family adventures, and team building. events. He has a wife and three children, and focuses on living life to its fullest with them. And that's the truth. I have spent time with them And Jordan is a model. for living the good life not overcomplicating. Focusing on the things.

1:24 That truly matter. The critical few over the trivial many. And I've learned a lot from Jordan and I think you can too. We get Perfect timing for the dogs to have a spaz attack. With that, please enjoy. This conversation with Jordan Jonas and be sure to check him out at Jordan Jonas J-R-D-A-N-J-O-N-A S dot com and on Instagram and YouTube. Hobo, that's H O B O, Jordan O J O R D O. Thanks for listening.

1:57 At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking. And then also you personal question. Now we're just seeing it. My cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal enter scale. No Jordan, great to see you, man. Good to see you, Tim. Good to see you. And we've upgraded our interaction to in person. Because for those who are listening, we had some audio glitches, some technological woes, and we just decided to do it in person. So here we are.

2:34 And I have twice the number of pooches, meaning two versus one since he last saw me, got a stray adopted a few days ago. We're also drinking what people might think are ridiculously heavy pores of whiskey, but this is not whiskey. This is Lake Missoula Tea Company. Lake Missoula breakfast. It is delicious. Just a bit of caffeine, a little bit of a topper, let's call it. Yeah, we just both arrived at some city we're not from, so at high altitude. And We're just

3:07 getting back into the groove of the conversation. So we are gonna get to Russia, but first I wanted you to And they tie together, I suppose. Explain what we have here on the table besides the tea. Because

3:21 You made the joke, you know, if the interview's not going very well, might as well have this handle is Yeah, the handle is pointed towards you. What are we looking at? What we're looking at is an axe. It's one I've kind of designed. specifically using the knowledge and experience I have had in Siberia in particular with the native folks and such

3:43 So it's Got some Unique features. Some that I've Really grown to love. So in the forest.

3:51 First off, just to set the foundation, the one tool you need is an axe. To give yourself a chance at survival. More than a knife. More than a knife because you can do all the things you can do with a knife. You can get through you know, you could Get a fire, you can build some traps, you can get through the ice, you can you know, it just kinda gives you the ability to Do everything, maybe not as well as you want, but As the natives would say, the one until you need is an axe, and I concur.

4:15 So The problem though is that a lot of people in the States don't know what a good axe Is and so you'll go buy one at Lows and go home and just doesn't do the job you need. So I did design one that

4:29 Has all the features I like. It's kind of a Siberian axe head shape with some of the Ivanki modifications are the native nomadic folks that I lived with. They live in the woods all the time, so they kinda know what they They like. So some of the features of this axe in particular, most interestingly is it's sharpened from one side. Like a single bevel.

4:54 grind, which means you have to have a right or a left handed axe based on what you are, but what that allows you to do is when you're in the woods Very often you'll be carving things, you know, whether you're building a sleigh or building a trap or building Whatever it might be. And it really helps it work as a planer and really helps it Do accurate work.

5:12 That way. It also on most trees that You chop down in the woods, they're quite Narrow. You're rarely chopping down a giant, you know, cedar tree. You're you're gonna be chopping down sh things about the size of your arm. And

5:26 Couple swings with this. Bevel design and you can slice right through'em. Assuming it is matched to your dominant hand, right? So that's so that it's sticking instead of deflecting. Exactly. Exactly. So If you picture a bevel And

5:40 hitting against a tree. If it's ground off on that side, there's a bit of a deflection. And by grinding it from the opposite side, when it hits that tree, it just bites right in. Yeah. I I guess you have some experience with deflection. Deflection. Yes, we do. And the and yeah, just to finalize a few last points, you'll notice on a lot of American axes they have a s narrow eye. And can you describe the eye? The eye is basically if you had the Axe, what would you call it? Blade, I guess. Blade. Right. There is the hole through which the handle would fit. On a Siberian axe it's quite wide, which allows you in the field to repair it with a

6:15 Solid. piece of wood and you can slide the handle through a t l like a tomahawk. From the top the handle goes all the way on that way. When you swing. No. Pressure is always tighten the head.

6:27 You don't need wedges and all that. Which is uh Cool design. There's a bunch of other little nuances to the design. I don't wanna bore you too long, but Tim knows he's been up in the woods with me and we Got to use it a bunch. I got to show'em how to use it.

6:42 And axes. I mean the number of ways that you used it. Also just side note, I never really thought about this, but for people who are wondering about this bevel Description that I gave You could think of there's certain chefs' knives. Especially Western chef's knives that are double beveled. They're sharpened from both sides in. So if you buy a a cheap knife sharpener, It generally looks like a V, mm-hmm, right? And you're sharpening it from both sides. But if you look at a lot of Japanese chef's knives

7:09 Single bevel. given the way they use it in cutting fish kinda horizontally. And I recall seeing you and we first went out our first day in the wilderness in Montana. And Just a quick sidebar, one of my friends because forecast is fantastic. It was a bluebird day. And he's like

7:30 It was his first time going out on a real camping trip and he's like I think I might just leave the rain gear at the at the rental spot and I was like, That is the last thing you would just put at the bottom. You know stick it somewhere. And then it was torrential downpour. We got hammered, and even though it wasn't Particularly cold. you end up feeling cold very, very quickly. And

7:54 When we arrived at I suppose the first camp, which maybe was sort of a premature stop because of the cold and the rain. Yeah, it was pretty chilly and and uh it was incredible how quickly number one My friend Mike and I both were having trouble zippering our jackets, even though it was not even winter. And then watching you use the axe to

8:19 Maybe you could describe this, but when you take a larger stick, people think of fire building and they think of perhaps having like the fat wood and then you have some type of cotton ball or Tinder. But when you're out in the woods, you're not necessarily sure you could pack these things. But if you're improvising, what blew me away was how you use the axe to create Feathers. Yeah. Can you explain what that is?

8:45 You want a really sharp axe once you get control of it, you know, they're dangerous. We'll go to the deflection stories in it. But Once you're a master of the axe, you can go in a downpour, torrential downpour. chop down a dead standing tree because it you know, you might see dead trees on the ground, but it's amazing, particularly in the spring when they've spent a whole winter absorbing moisture, it's amazing how wet they will be. And so Deadstanding, find something, chop it down, and then split it. You know, chop it a smaller

9:15 piece out of the middle and then split that open and once you got it split open you're to that dry wood. And it never gets wet because it was standing. And so Then Split that piece open a couple times, you get a nice

9:28 Edge on it. And then with the axe, you can just run your ax down that wood. with the right amount of control and practice and make some really fine curls. That'll catch a spark. So you don't even need a lighter, you don't need anything like that. Mm-hmm. The split piece of this internal wood. Easier if you don't. It's easier if you leave a big bundle of this curl. So imagine imagine guys if you would you have

9:56 Let's just for simplicity's sake. Right, say that you have a fully intact. log of wood that's about the thickness of your arm. You then

10:06 And they're very particular ways to do this safely, right? Like like leaning it against a larger fallen tree. Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of nuance. There's a lot of nuance, but you split that in half. So now you have if you're looking kind of down the barrel of each of these split pieces, they're half circles. Right. And then you break those into You chop those into even

10:28 quarters, let's say. Then you stand one up and you're using the axe, which takes a lot of fine motor control. to kind of shave down these thin pieces of wood that then curl as you're pushing it down. And then you go a little bit higher, you do the same thing, you do it again, you do it again, and you end up with all of these it's almost looks like

10:48 A fiddlehead fern or something, where they're all rolled together. In fire making too. In survival in the woods, it's great to have a lighter, it's great to have matches. They all make it so much easier to start a fire, but they'll occasionally fail you and they'll fail you when you need'em the most. And so I always carry also just a ferrarod, which is It just makes sparks, basically. You scrape it and it makes sparks, but

11:10 With that you need uh fine paper thin material to catch the sparks and light it up and that's what you're making with the Axe curls. And so We were in a big downpour, you know, and even that can be difficult because when it's really raining. You know, you gotta be really careful that you made all these curls that they don't get soaked before you get the spark on'em. So we made a quick tripod, draped a tarp over it and tucked under that to actually build our fire.

11:37 Made a few sparks and got that burning. You can then make some Not so fine curls, make some really quick rough ones. And throw that on top. It catches and precinct you have a fire, which It's amazing how life giving it is in those situations. Everybody's depressed and wet. Particular, like soaking wet. Hands aren't really functioning. And then the fire, once you get a critical mass and you're able to warm your hands.

12:02 You know, my buddy Mike, I remember you said he's like Yeah, no wonder we've worshipped fire for so long. Obvious. All right, so this acts And I'm thrilled to have one of these and we'll put up an additional shorter video. on my YouTube channel, which is just Tim Ferris. What is your Up to channel? Hobo Jordo, actually. And we will explain why. I have a Instagram at that too, which I'll put videos up. Yeah. So we'll put up some videos of the axe and maybe have you demo some of the more

12:33 non-obvious ways of using it. Before we get to the rewind and looking at how on earth you ended up in Russia. Let's not. Let go of the loose end of the deflection story. An axe has a learning curve, especially when you have a really well made acts in your Swinging it hard to get the w jobs you need done done.

13:00 When I did go to Russia. I was a little in over my head. Like I had grown up on a farm. And used an axe more than probably your typical American, but not like they do over there by any means. And so I mean these axes are they're sharper than most kitchen knives you would find in an Airbnb. I mean like they're very, very sharp.

13:19 Yeah, and so Wait, they just use them in a Way more than I would, and I was trying to keep up, you know, I'm trying to be productive and in doing so I was in a hurry. So This is gonna take a slight bit of a backstory, but the natives over there will build these huge thirty kilometer circumference fences. out of only logs interlocking. They have no nails, nothing up there'cause there are none around.

13:41 And so there's a specific technique to doing that. Partly that involves Chopping a tree down and then You step your foot on it and then you split that tree. On that cut end. You know, so you're mi taking a big swing and swinging right where your foot sort of is.

13:56 And That tree is not. flat like it was cut with a saw. It's got an angle like it was cut with an axe. And so there's a real deflection possibility there if you don't have all the You don't have it down and so I'm trying to keep up Smack hit my boot and

14:10 You know, we're in the middle of Siberia. I can't get another rubber boot. We're working in swamps. It was very disappointing. Went home. Had a cut on my foot You know, back to home, which is a teepee. Well yeah, had a cut on my foot kinda Bandaged it up and tried to patch my boot as best I could. Go back out next day. Same thing. And make a long story short, I chopped the heck out of my boots. And then finally one of the native guys was like, Hey, you know what, Jordan? I think Five years ago I left a boot upside down on a stump.

14:37 Like you know, five miles that way. And so we spent a whole day. We got our reindeer, packed'em up. Road these reindeer up and over the mountain. Sure enough, there's a stump with a boot upside down on And these are natural rubber boots and so I could like it was smaller than my foot, but I could squeeze my foot in there and I'm like great, this is awesome. Back at it in another day or two. And swing I chopped it. And I was

15:01 So frustrated. It was annoying that I cut my boot open. I got mad and I swung with one hand at the tree. And then here comes deflec you know, deflex hop and rips right into my knee. And I had hammered my knee I in the long run. I went and got it.

15:16 Checked out. Many months later. But it was uh you know I Mostly severed the MCL, split the bone. It was a Quite a gnarly injury and I I was stuck out there. I had to crawl back to the teepee. I knew I was kind of in shock, so I was like, I gotta get back to the teepee before I feel this.

15:33 Which was a couple of kilometers away. So I kinda just bailed out. Told everybody like, I'm I'm going back to T P. And then I got there and man, it was a lot of pain. I had had surgery on my Other knee not long before, so that was my good leg I chopped. And then And I was stuck in that T P for several days. I couldn't even move. I had to like

15:52 Even to poop. I had a plastic bag I had to like go in that and then roll to the edge of the T P and stuff it out. I couldn't even Stand on either leg. It was Pretty miserable. And they were out building that fence, so it was a few days later they finally came back and And I was still recovering on the T V floor. What did you do or what did they do in terms of quote unquote first aid. Yeah, the thing that's like here's a here's a poultice made of God knows what. Slap it on, walk it off, you'll be fine. Which is mostly what it was. It was uh Very simple. We

16:21 Went over to a spruce tree that was bleeding a bunch of sap out, you know and And went over there and scraped a bunch of that sap off with the axe and then just Put that on my wound. This is right at the start, right when I got it. Pack the wound with that sap. Then I went back and

16:36 Shockingly enough, we're out in the woods in the dirt and the rustics or whatever, and never got infected at all. Healed up as best it could. A few days later when they came back. Andre, one of the native guys, brought me a little cane he carved for me, which was nice. And so then the next couple of days I caned around and then, you know, got to where I could get back out on the fence again and help out. But It was a quite a lesson, you know, that was my first Time with them and

17:03 Yeah, I was in over my head a little bit. High learning curve. That's a memorable lesson. Memorable lesson. That was very that was pretty miserable in that T P for a few days. I Just a quick thanks to our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show. Creatine isn't just for muscle. It's essential daily fuel for your brain, your body, and long-term performance. For me, I have Alzheimer's and dementia risk in my family. The cognitive benefits. Are the reason I take creatine.

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19:56 I So it sounds like you got Close the Quite a few of the locals. Can you describe

20:05 Hopefully this is enough of a cue. You told me about this woman where out in the woods. In the mountains. But it involves picked up a few Russians on this trip. I think one of them was Durak. Yeah, yeah. So if that's enough of a cue in terms of warm welcome. You know, what was your

20:25 First arrival like This is probably two thousand Five or six, but I was heading over to Russia the first time and Didn't know what to expect, but we land in the Moscow. Airport.

20:36 And instead of having like a bus or something come up to our airplane, it was like a farm tractor, this blu farm tractor and a wooden trailer and I was like, No way, get off the plane and you know, we're climbing into this trailer and so of course I took a picture and Yes. Officer stand over there. Durak which means like idiot. No the First greeting of R came over to my phone, made me delete.

21:00 And welcome to Russia. And then uh so that was fitting. I guess it's not that different from how you would probably get treated at JFK. Fair enough. Fair enough. All right. So let's go back then. Two The impetus, the catalyst. Just as a skeletal backstory that we're gonna dive into, but where did you grow up? I grew up in Idaho and North on a farm in uh North Idaho for the most part and

21:33 Did you grow up Learning Russian from family members, then studying in school, then going to Russia. No, I never had any particular Never thought particularly a lot about Russia, although I was really into history and so I had read about a lot about World War Two, Russian war Memoirs.

21:53 read and really was impacted by the Gulag Archipelago. So I you had a familiarity with Russia, but it was never uh Destination that I had thought about. And You know, it lived a fairly typical beginning to life. Got a job when I was thirteen, worked, work, work, and then

22:10 When I was about eighteen, my brother invited me to ride freight trains. So that kinda sets. So we're gonna have to skip forward from there and come back. Mm-hmm. Two Yet Hobo Jorgo. What on earth happened? That

22:27 led to actually getting on a plane. You know, I grew up in a Christian household and I had seen the fruit of that. Path. In my life, I'd seen it in people around me, my family history, you know, I really

22:39 Valued it and it was really Meaningful to me, but as I was You know, a teenager and grown up Uh, had a lot of questions that I hadn't had Satisfactorily answered. And so

22:52 I found myself, although I really valued Christianity and saw it as very good, I found myself in a place where I was struggling to connect with it on any level. And so I was in a fairly dark place as a young man there, and I remember At that time I had read this particular verse and it basically said, He who follows a path of righteousness and is in the darkness, continue.

23:16 And that struck me at the time'cause like, Okay, there's people that try to do the right thing and are still in darkness and that so that's okay. But it didn't answer a lot of the questions I had. And I didn't want to bulldoze it all because I had seen that it was good.

23:31 And I also knew I was young and bulldozed it. Well I didn't want to take my faith in Christianity and everything that it meant and just Discard. This is yeah, I'm gonna discard it and go my own way as a eighteen year old. What types of questions did you have? Yeah, they're actually fairly simple and and this goes to the next answer, but I had uh My two main questions were one, like surely though your earth is not six thousand years old. And then two was, No, I just had a hard time matching up old Testament ethics with

24:02 Christ's message. And I just didn't know how to do those things. And so I had a lot of what I would call Cultural baggage. But because I recognize it as good. We're like I'm gonna try to stick with it.

24:16 But I have to separate the baby from the bathwater. And That's kind of a daunting task'cause it's kind of a lifelong journey of faith, but I was Given a great boost by The fact that actually Jesus did, he said. In one part of the New Testament he says

24:33 to give a summary, but what's the point of the law and the prophets? Like what is all this for? And he says, Love the Lord your God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself. So I was Shocked when I read it because I was like wow, wait a second. He takes all the bath water and throws it out for you and leaves you the baby. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and love the Your neighbor is yourself. That was the whole point of the law and the prophets and everything else.

24:54 And so I didn't have to figure everything else out at the time. And I was Okay with Seeing if that would play out. Uh you know, like I said, I'd seen enough fruit that I didn't want to bulldoze it.

25:08 What kind of fruit had you seen? Um you know, so like My mom for one was like a A real woman of faith and that we'd all always had single moms come over and live at the house and she would always w work to like give

25:20 Gifts to Christmas gifts to Prisoners. Children that are out you know always Had her acting in the world in love.

25:29 And in my own life. As a young man, you know, they got this thing, this ideal that's pushing against your Natural. Lust and this and that. You know, it g it kinda g throws a wrench into your natural tendencies, whether that be to Anger or to you know. It overlays your life with a

25:48 Love Ideal. And I saw that as good. And so I chose at that time with those two bits of information that like continue even in the darkness. And that

25:59 I can like Put everything else on pause. The only thing I need to like accept or not accept is like Love the lawyer that that core. And I was like, I'm okay with accepting that and then I had this really Deep prayer that

26:12 Some day I just wish I had the faith to match. But I didn't actually know if I I just knew that I'm gonna do it anyway. So in that time I was also traveling and going to New York and going to Virginia and Running all around and

26:27 I had heard of this opportunity. To go to Russia and build an orphanage. So that was the first thought of Russia. And again it was the distant and I didn't think much of it. But I did pray well a few minutes ago, Lord.

26:39 You know, you're gonna have to give me a sign'cause I don't have any reason to go. And then I went to New York, I was kind of a flippant Prayer, I think. I went to New York and Meta Russian There and she had

26:52 offered to give me Russians'cause you know, the topic came up. And I did, and I don't know what it was, but I think it was maybe either putting a face to a vague idea or a act of God or whatever you want to call it. But for some reason it hit me really emotionally. Like I would went back to the my apartment there, my sister's apartment, and just would Cry like oh man. Like I felt like a heavy burden for It wasn't even directed at her, it was directed at this vague idea of

27:21 going and I couldn't tell. Even at the time I was like, I couldn't quite explain it, but it could be explicable. But also I could just accept it as the kick that I prayed for. And so I kinda did. And again, I still didn't have the face to match. Then I remember going it's like okay, I'm gonna go, I'm taking as an answer. I bought a ticket for a year and headed over to I didn't even really know.

27:41 Where? And There was a guy over there, Justice Walker. Awesome dude. He was getting heading up that orphanage building project. And so that was my only connection and And then I remember on the train, I was like it was hard for me to go'cause I had like girl I had a crush on and all these I wanted to pursue my education and maybe become an officer in the Marines. You know, all these things I had ideas for.

28:03 And then I was on this train and had given all that up like on the Trans Siberian Railway, chugging across and I remember just like Lord, if I have one thing, someday give me faith to match my like Willingness to sacrifice. So that was my

28:17 Kick into Russia. Kinda open ended and I just had one thing I was grasping. Like Love your neighbor as yourself. Let me see if I can implement this in the world. In whatever place I am. I wasn't Trying to per se Do anything other than that.

28:31 Tell me if this is a fair read, I've often said to myself and to other people and I absolutely borrowed it from someone else and not come up with this. But The

28:43 general maxim that it's easier to act your way into a new way of thinking than to think your way into a new way of acting. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So act as if. Act as if. That's very much so. Right. And I think particularly when you're dealing with something like Apathy or love? Or you know, like how do you relate in the world? Like one thing that was clear is like oh well actually It's an action, you know, like and so we're gonna do this. You know, you can't be Stagnant in that. Orientation. Yeah. But I think that's a good summary, yes. How did you go from

29:18 Orphanage to Ivanky. I went over to help. Justice Walker. Build this orphanage.

29:26 And that was neat, but I it was just me. And he needed a lot of groundwork laid and Wells dug. But he eventually had a crew lined up that was gonna come over and actually frame the thing and put the thing up and do all that. So I was there Kinda.

29:42 Doing the groundwork we Doug a well and did all this stuff. But it was Still pretty preliminary. And I was there for a few months, really enjoyed being in Russia, but I was

29:54 struck by the fact that I r actually really want to live with Russians, you know, and So And I told that to Justice and he He's like, Well, let's call a neighboring village. You called them up. And the guy was like

30:06 Wow, yeah, absolutely send the American over. My wife's in the hospital and I need someone to watch my kids. So How long had you been there? Three months I would guess. How much Russian did you speak at that point? Very little. Very little. Like I uh was trying to pick it up, but that was part of the problem is Justice was so much f he's one of the most well read people I've ever been with, so it's so fun to just talk to him and It's a lot easier than working on your ABC. Yeah, exactly. And so I was not doing it to the to the and when you first go to a country, you're so struck by how much you can communicate through

30:37 Nonverbally, and then you all of a sudden hit a wall. Okay. I wanted to get past that as fast as possible. So I went to that little village and was Fully immersed in a Siberian, you know, village life right there. Yeah, that was pretty funny'cause I hadn't dealt with kids before or anything like that. Uro had to go back to his lumber mill job and so he was Big Russian dude, you know, that

31:02 big handshake, Oh, I'm so glad you're here and showed me around and Here's the kids. A five year old boy and a two year old girl, you know, introduce, have some tea. Then the next day he's already off to work and pointing me where the grocery store is and So I was in the deep end trying to take care of these two kids. I'd never done that before. Grocery shop for'em. I didn't even know the language. And uh That was my Splash into

31:26 Russia proper, I guess, in that regard. And then how do you get into reindeer territory? Oh yeah. So then so these guys these guys that all uh You're uh had been to prison before and And who is that? Sorry, the Russian guy with the live with. Yeah, the big Russian And he uh his neighbor was named was Eager. And he had also been to prison. And these are all guys in Siberia with pretty storied pasts.

31:55 Right. They really enjoyed having me over there for when I was like really trying to just work hard. And It was so random for them to have an American that they uh would kinda tug of war me back between their two houses. Yeah. It was

32:13 They both became like families to me, you know, they both had kids and both a lot of fun in different ways. But Eager, the second family there, had been in prison with a native fur trapper from the far north. And They were really close'cause they'd like found God in prison together and this and that. And so he was always Tell me you gotta go north and meet my

32:35 Fur trapping buddy. So after that year of living in Russia. Right at the end of it. You're right. Yeah. trapper came through town to sell furs and we met and he invited me up to live with him. So I was like, Yeah, I'm gonna go home to America, renew my visa, get some earn some money and then I'll come back.

32:51 And so I went back and headed straight north, more or less. And Then I was in even more over my head. So what was what was the first day like? When you land first day, first week. When you land in the far north. This is in Siberia proper. Well we've been in Siberia the whole time.

33:11 But it was just incrementally further north. In kind of central Siberia. How cold does it get in the far north, you know, where I would end up being with the nomads. I'd get to negative fifty eight negative sixties is like kinda the the cut off, but chilly.

33:30 First getting to the north is funny. Well, one thing I was struck by Honestly, when I got to Russia was there's a lot of drinking. Yeah, every bit I went further north every time I would get used to it at one place. I remember driving in a village in the first village I was with Justice. And we're just cruising along on a cold

33:48 Winter day. In the bus. And it swerves around this guy laying in the road. But we're out in the middle of nowhere. I was like, Whoa, like it's cold out. We're gonna stop and the lady across from me and I could, you know, make out with my bad rush and she's like ah he's a drunk, he's dead. I think. Wow. And so it's kinda.

34:08 Intense, but You kinda recalibrate at the new norm. And when I went to the Next northern village, it re struck me again. I was like, Oh, there's chaos. And that first week was That'cause I was with Uro and he was showing me around and

34:22 You know we go to this. First house and I mean I think even it might have been even on the way from the airport, but Pick up some random drunk guy and he's he like holds up his phone. Listen to this. And just his wife just chewing him out and cussing him out. He's like, That's the fury of a Russian woman, you know,'cause she's been missing for who knows how long.

34:43 Let's see, how can I summarize some of what we we were talking about at dinner last night? Yeah. Correct me if I get anything wrong. Like in the Ivanke, you have these Sustenance. Hunters, trappers, et cetera with encyclopedic

34:59 knowledge and wherewithal. I mean it's it's just mind boggling, right? I I haven't had an opportunity to spend time. in that region of the world, but certainly in Central and South America and Africa and so on. When you start to look at Let's just say like Shangun trackers in South Africa, or there are like levels and then the Kalhari Bushman, and then there are levels and

35:24 It's unbelievable how fluent they are in their environment. Yeah. Right. And At the same time. many of these groups have An Achilles heel. Which is alcohol. Mm-hmm. And to put it in perspective, what is the

35:41 Percentage of deaths. Attributable to Homicide, suicide, or alcohol related accidents. Yeah, the statistic I heard for the Northern native villages was thirty percent of people die from homicide, suicide. It's really And having lived there a long time, like actually I I appreciate you stepping back a little bit because I don't want to like air dirty laundry and not

36:03 Put the proper context like I love those people and they're my friends and Many of my friends. Have that issue. But it has really

36:12 tangible consequences when it's at that level. But yes. It was amazing'cause these people You know, you'd go in the village and they'd be just on the ground drunk for like weeks on end, just binges that I could only be broken by taking them back out in the woods. But when they get in the woods and sober up, these are like the coolest

36:29 Most knowledgeable people and then People that you would say are happy and living a fulfilled life and also Just really open and pleasant and

36:41 Quick to become family, basically. But it was almost explicable. Just in the cultural tumult that's they've had to endure over time because You know, it was just in the thirties and stuff that

36:55 basically the Soviet Union and Stalin like kind of really grabbed the hold of What was had been long before just a traditional way of life that continued forward alongside Russian fur trappers and this and that. And they grabbed hold of it with like an iron fist force collectivized it. All the people that were spiritual leaders of any kind, shamans and everybody else got sent to prison camps. Anyone that ha was really productive, so like Anyone that had more than five hundred reindeer?

37:23 were sent to prison camps as cool ox or whatever, you know, and then They kinda just gutted the intellectual and spiritual soul from'em and then force built these villages, they forced them to be in. And then instead of them having reindeer And being

37:40 People existing freely out in the wilderness, they Turn them into collective farms. So now you're hired as a reindeer ho herder to herd the government's reindeer. And your wife might be hired as a T P worker to live in the TP. And so they just restructured the life. The kids now don't live with you in the woods, they go to boarding school. Separated the families. And then somehow

38:03 they actually made that kind of work, you know, and and to some degree the reindeer while less independent than they were prior, they flourished in that they had big herds of reindeer and people were productive and alcohol was banned. So they kind of were quite productive. And then the Soviet Union collapsed and overnight all the reindeer just became For the highest bidder. So the

38:24 You know, Russians and people from out of town that had a lot of money just came in and bought All these reindeer that were grandpa's and grandma's, you know, blood and sweat. And just butchered him and send him to the meat shops and the reindeer herders scraped together what little bit of money they could and bought a few reindeer. And went back into the woods. The family I lived with was Von Viktorich was the

38:47 was the old man when I first got there and he was blind, but he was the guy that had like got some of these reindeer. Took his sons out of the boarding school and Raise them in the woods. And so It gave me a real appreciation also for the traditional ways of life because I could see it in villages where reindeer herding hadn't been hung on to.

39:06 And they just felt like black holes. Like everybody was just drinking and there was nothing to do and They don't have an outlet to like flourish with something they're proud of and In their native ways. So

39:17 It felt pretty dead in, but the village with the Reindeer herding. had this whole thing and they in you know the reindeer herders out there and because of that even the people that don't do it are proud to be reindeer herders and A place to send their kids in the summer and people have this there's a little bit of cultural momentum that

39:34 So let's really enrich let's unpack this word and this animal. And the significance of reindeer because it's come up a ton and people are like, What is up with these magical reindeer? Probably. So first of all, just to paint a picture for folks. This might not help, but How similar are reindeer to caribou? Very similar.

39:56 Almost you probably wouldn't recognize the difference. But they do have a slight genetic just from Separation. So reindeer are technically in the old world. And caribou are the Similar animal, but In the new world, so Canada and stuff.

40:09 And they can breed with each other and stuff, but the results turn out poorly, like they get the worst traits of both. And then in the old world More so than well, an old world It's

40:21 The reindeer were domesticated very long ago. Like Ten thousand years ago or whenever. So There's actually kind of become a bit of a domestic strain of reindeer. Like the natives now. Can't

40:34 Domesticate the wild ones. And if a wild one comes in and breeds with their then it's always gonna be wild. So so it's been a way of life. Long enough that there's some even genetic separation. Between the

40:49 Wild and uh Semi domestic. Of the reindeer. Why are they so important? Um is it's is it analogous to say bison for some of the Plains Indians in North America, is it different? Well, it's actually it's different because of the domestication. Exactly. I was gonna say it's it's analogous in that

41:10 You know, their whole cultural stories and everything are all connected with the reindeer like with the bison, but It does differ because the reindeer actually Practically make

41:21 Living in the woods. in the Taiga in those ro remote northern forests a thing. Like it makes it possible to exist out there. year around and have Transportation, so they ride the reindeer like you would horses. And then they also in the wintertime ride you know, sleighs.

41:40 They provide meat when the hunts don't go well. They provide the furs that No, so they kind of provide everything. They also provide Just the cultural context. Like you could go out there, sure and Set up a T P and

41:54 live and bring in noodles and you know, be just fine, but But it would feel fairly dead without just the rhythms of life that are created by The reindeer. So they're really core to to that. Sort of the rhythms. To the rhythms and and but also they're very

42:09 Practically. I always hated snowmobiles'cause they're gonna break down and then you're gonna be stuck. You know, forty kilometers from camp and like you said, your hands aren't working, you gotta try to work on this whole thing. When you had a reindeer and a sleigh. No problem. And so you can

42:27 And there's a point that is interesting to make. That I learned living in the woods for a while is like You're home. You're just already home. Wherever you are. And so like when you have your reindeer and stuff. You're not lost. You're home. You're just where you are is kind of home and you're able to take that And really embody it and become like

42:45 A part of the wilderness in that way. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Just a quick thanks to our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show. Sleep is the key to it all. It is the foundation. Many of you heard me talk about how today's sponsor, ASleep, has improved my sleep with its pod cover. The Pod Five introduces ASleep's latest product, the blanket, which uses the same technology as the pod's cover. To extend temperature regulation across the entire body. On average, members report the pod has helped them fall asleep 44% faster.

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45:41 So We're gonna get back to uh hopping trains in a second, but You kinda Past over Gulag.

45:49 Archipelago. And you're like, had an influence. It had an impact on me. Seems like that might be an understatement. I don't know. For people who are wondering, this is not a light, breezy hundred page read. And we're gonna come to that in in just a second. But What did your childhood education look like? I was home schooled, so it was my mom took it real seriously and we she was pretty hands on and In teaching us, so

46:16 And I for whatever reason really got into history as a young kid. So even probably was twelve I read this big I remember my first real thick book, but it was about Ujima and like World War Two and other battles and And then I got really into those memoirs, read a bunch of German memoirs from World War Two, which were always crazy'cause they had to go through so much. And then the Russian,'cause I was anyway.

46:39 Got in all the memoirs and then Somehow came across the Gulag Archipelago. And I was Fairly young, you know, it's probably

46:47 Seventeen, eighteen when I first read it. And It impacted me in a in a lot of ways that were relevant to my the little spiritual path that I was on before because A lot of what he talks about is that

47:01 Happiness can't be our ultimate goal in life. We have to have purpose. Could you just for people who s and certainly I'm not intimately familiar with it, but what is what is written about? Alexander Schulzenitson was a guy who's on the front in World War Two and wrote a letter back Yeah. And

47:20 Course he got checked and he got arrested and sent to uh Gulag, which were the Soviet prison camps that kinda snake their way all through the Soviet Union. They were particularly Harsh on political prisoners as opposed to crime prisoners, but like so

47:37 They would send these guys out to basically Death camps and have a mine or Do the labor, basically. They kept the thing going. But they were

47:46 Designed to be really Brutal and Dark places. The fact that even, you know, because the political prisoners were the bottom of the rung. They allowed the like rapists and the those guys to kinda rule the roost and

47:59 Set the rules and so They degraded into some pretty terrible But this was all unknown basically to the West and he was uh some kind of a brilliant mind. And he over his

48:12 eight or however many years he was in the prison camp. At an encyclopedic Ability to like remember, maybe he wrote down, I don't know, but all these stories of people who had been through all these situations. And when you read it I was just struck by like, man, there's all paragraph about this lady. That lady should have her own book. Like that's a um crazy amount of

48:33 Tragedy and story and a and all the stuff packed in those books. Another another example of something that really stood out was like, you know, when you get in prison, everybody says to themselves, I'm gonna survive. You know. Then you add it at any cost. To the end almost nonchalantly. And then pretty soon you start down this path where you're

48:51 Basically stomping on others to survive because you need to look out for number one survival of the fittest. And he was like, and everybody basically adopted that. mentality. He's like except for these Occasional The corrupt Orthodox Church had somehow created these babushka, these old ladies that didn't

49:10 allow their soul to go down that path. And he's like they all died. But they all were a light in the Darkness on their way. Kinda gets at the point of yeah, the Lose your life. But

49:22 Don't lose your soul and like happiness can't be your ultimate goal. That can be taken from you by a health change or by getting thrown in a gulag or by whatever it is. You have to have something deeper and Self. Forging a purpose, you know.

49:36 I wanted to talk about The Homeschooling because Not that there is a single mold, but There are certain

49:45 I suppose maybe archetypes that people might have in their heads as to what constitutes like a rugged mountain man, effectively. And I was chatting with my girlfriend last night and she was like He doesn't really fit my vision of like a rugged mountain man, which is not she's not saying you're not rugged, but When you're talking about And I'm sure we'll get to this like Assyrian history. And reading Gulag Archipelago as a seventeen year old. Like these are not

50:14 Terribly common things that get woven. How did your mom do the home schooling? Like what did a week look like or the lesson plans? Does that make any sense? I'm just wondering Because Homeschooling, I think, for a lot of people in the United States seems like an aberration, but when you look at Some of the people whose books we read. A lot of them had some equivalent of home schooling.

50:36 Yeah, you know what I think it kind of is, is it's like public school there is a standard and everybody's gonna be taught to that standard and there's kind of a minimum bar and this and that. Home schooling allows for more divergent options both on the negative and the positive. So you can keep your kid at home and not teach him anything and go on. But also you can Really focus on your Kids' unique interests and abilities and

50:58 they can really excel and develop those in a way you wouldn't in kind of the Public school realm. So Because I was yeah, really into history. We you know, we leaned into that and I had the time to,'cause honestly And uh

51:12 public school setting you burn up so much time going into re you know just Dinking around. Whereas I could get done with my actual academic schooling and just uh Couple hours in the morning, and a few hours maybe. Then go on to my interests and

51:26 So it allows you to do that, but And she kinda taught us You know, initially she was really hands on and then the older we got it was more hands off where we had to be more self taught and follow this whatever curriculum she had. And then the last two years of school, so my last

51:43 Junior and senior year I went to a public high school and got that experience too. Socialized. Got socialized. Which was an odd experience. I'm not sure what I think of the socialization, but I was gonna say prefer to be an indoor cat, but you're not really an indoor cat. No, but it so with home schooling though. I think it has a really awesome

52:07 thing. You know, I I think it's great that it's an option in the country. It is One thing if you're home schooled, you have to Focus on its weakness, which is community and friends and Developing that. So for people that

52:18 Think that's an interesting option. Just know that that's its weakness and then account for that in how you organize. That's what we do with our kids. How do you account for it with your kids? Uh we're really active in Trying to be the catalyst for community in our town. Like We're always ready to hang out and we're all you know, we got'em in jujitsu and we got in gymnastics and got'em in all the things and then Make phone calls, foster like

52:44 hiking trips with the other families and make sure we're like multiple times a week getting the kids together with their friends and stuff. You know, you just really Put effort and focus on that. It also strikes me that The ability to build community.

52:59 And social bonds and therefore socialized, but not in some oddly artificial environment. is kind of dependent on Activities. And maybe this is particularly true for boys, I don't know. But What?

53:16 I observed when I was at your house. I just remember Your kids' cousins visiting. And they were always outside doing something. Which I think is important, right? They're not just sitting around talking. That's not n actually natural for most humans, including adults, to just do that all the time. There were shared activities and then when the cousins left, I guess it was your

53:40 Middle child who is just Crying and is so adorable. But just such heartfelt. Deep connections. And similarly, it's like when we were out in the woods. And

53:54 We were sitting around and your brother was there. Maybe I had a thing or two to do with the jujitsu influence. I don't know. Another reason to never start fights. Like you would not see him and be like, Oh, I'm terrified of that guy. And yet he could absolutely bend you into a pretzel and and cause lots of orthopedic lifeline problems. We were out there, it was Give it your brother. Couple of llamas, one with a slightly lopsided head, prone to falling over. Long story. And just a few guys. Two of my close friends and we're all around a fire.

54:27 And I can't remember who said it. Maybe it was Your brother, maybe it was Mike. But oh I get it. I see why this is again not it's not saying this is a purely gendered thing, but this is what he said,'cause it was all guys. Who's not? Okay. Who said

54:43 Now I see why guys like fires so much, because they can connect and talk without making eye contact. You can just look at the fire having something that is like ancillary. No, I I thought it was a v a fun observation of paid a little more attention to it ever since, but it does just give you something a third Partita, we should have a little start a little fire on the table here. For sure, having a common activity like that and we

55:08 are fortunate enough to just be able to to live in a place that's really conducive to And then sending the kids outside. And it's something I've obviously tried to foster in them. So they do spend a lot of time just running around and being creative and Yeah, they don't have One thing I've avoided a bit is phones and stuff like that. And I think it is

55:28 Fairly low hanging fruit. Because I mean you can see how they affect us. In our everyday life we get distracted and we get kinda disoriented with him, I would say. And

55:40 With kids it's even so much more acute, so They have to go out and run around and play and have fun. Well, you've also engineered this I mean it's a very fancy term to use, but like you've designed that. Into your life. As a deliberate environment and place. Yeah. You could have been in a lot of other places. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And

56:00 As for instance I'm training this very large puppy right now. Although I think I'm being trained A lot more, probably. In any case, very different personality from my other dog. Probably mixed with Anatolian Shepherd, very stubborn. And when you're trying to train a dog like that. I remember Dog Trainer said to me

56:24 If you're using treat as an example, right? You have to tip with twenties because the bar is crowded. Right. There are a lot of distractions. And When I think about Kids and of course I do not have kids yet. I hope to and then Very near future. But

56:41 If you're sitting in an apartment in the city And you're like kids, you can't use your phone. What are you offering them as an alternative? Right. It's like what is the alternative that is more compelling. And

56:54 You've deliberately put yourself in an environment where there's You have quite a lot to choose from. Right, right. And that has been intentional and obviously that is probably more difficult If you have a small apartment and you live in a city, you know, I imagine it takes a lot more Hands on. Go into the park or you know, there's a lot of creative outlets in

57:14 Learning to paint, learning an instrument, learning a this or that, that may scratch that itch for me. I did have it as a high priority to let the outdoors be a big part of our life. So I moved where that was possible and I have you know structure our life such. I got the llamas, you know, we were joking about initially so that I could take the family out on

57:35 one two week long trips rather than because I just couldn't carry enough gear to take'em out for short or so. It's been really intentional. It's been great and It's something to work out in a More urban context, but Not what I where I'm at.

57:50 Lamas. People might be like, Lamas? Really? Are we in the Andes? What's going on? Why Lamas and you know the reindeer history now. When I first got back from Russia. I thought it would be. Amazing to pack with. Raindeer. in America. So

58:05 I lived in Idaho. And there was a law against owning reindeer north of a certain border. I contacted my legislature or whatever there and Oddly responsive. Pretty soon I was in meetings at the govern with the government officials uh and they'd overturn the law. So now you can own reindeer in North Idaho. Unfortunately part of that

58:25 So it kinda ruined the ability of what I was envisioning to like So you couldn't agree. Yeah, I couldn't like Load'em full of gear and pack up in the woods. So you know, then your only other options are horses and llamas and I honestly just hadn't grown up with horses.

58:43 And there it's quite a learning curve on'em. They're dangerous, you know, everybody that Does a lot with horses has Some kind of stories are getting hurt on him. For people who have no idea how big are lamas

58:54 There about. Three hundred and fifty pounds. A lot smaller. They're a lot smaller. They're a lot smaller and they I'm sure there are cases where they might, but they tend not to kick. They're very like safe. And you can have like mean angry llamas, of course, like you can have a bad bitey dog, but you know, if you have a good llama, it's

59:12 And Oddly chill animals and go up on the woods and they don't like Tear up the ground, they sit there quietly. The kids can ride'em, so in that way they're quite nice for kids. Obviously adults can't, but they can pack the gear and I can walk without gear as long as I

59:27 Want two. So You know, those great advantages of horses and I love'em, but For me The low maintenance and low risk of a lama. Just I was like, Well can't have reindeer. I guess that's the next closest thing.

59:39 Are there any Train. Or sure footedness advantages to llamas. I'm thinking about, for instance, like horses versus Donkeys. Right. Like it seems like there are some advantages of using donkeys over horses. Yeah, the uh main advantage of the thing. Everybody should follow uh Hobo Jordan on Instagram because you have photos of some horses going heartwheeling down.

1:00:04 And incline. Yeah. Don't wanna be caught up in that. Yeah, it's easy to get killed, I think. Yeah. This is the common historical theme uh so and so got bucked off the horse and the fourth crusade ended or whatever Where we go advantages of llamas on terrain, yeah. So they have th you know, like uh the horse you have a metal shoe on the bottom. And metal, particularly on rock is pretty slipper slippery. And so you'll do a lot of slipping and sliding on rocks. The llamas have a soft pad with two little claws. They look like little raptor claws in the front.

1:00:39 And so it's actually quite interesting to see how they work. They're very small. Yeah, they're small little paws, but they you can stick on like a wet rock and that soft pad'll grip and they can walk up and down the rocks. Or if you're in mud or soft dirt, you see those two little front claws dig in like a raptor claw and then Climb up that.

1:00:58 Yeah, the terrain issues are pretty great. The other pack animal people use is goats. And those are nice'cause you can really go over Alders and like ran you know, they can hop from this to that. They're not they're somewhere in between a horse and a goat as far as their off roading abilities, but Sounds like you would have to have a whole caravan of goats. For carrying capacity. And goats also are always with you. Like

1:01:21 With the llama I can tie'em up and go hike up this way and that way. The goats Are always with you. You can't. Tie'em up and you can't leave'em in chaos will ensue. But they're They're intr they're funny little critters, but they weren't my. Capit.

1:01:37 Let's hop to purpose. Which I feel like Looking back at your family history looking back. And is it fair just to tie up one loose end with Gulag Archipelago? Is it how analogous is it to Man Search for Meaning by Victor Frankl? Yeah, it's really similar. I think it's like the thicker version of that. You know, it's like

1:02:00 I got like a light would be that main search for me. Yeah. Got it. Okay. Could you give us a bit of your family history. And you can go back to your grandmother. You could kinda start wherever you want. The purpose specifically made me think of your dad. And the reinvention of purpose. Yeah. Which I think. is a pressing need for a lot of people in a fast moving modern environment where they feel like they're on very

1:02:27 Unstable ground, perhaps in a lot of ways. But let's go back, you know, I threw out this term Assyrian, but most people don't it's not a familiar word. Yeah, there's a Kind of I guess you would almost call it the indigenous people of the Middle East, you know, before kind of the Arab takeovers and stuff were Aramaic speaking.

1:02:47 Assyrians is what they're called. So That's what my family was. They lived in northwestern Iran. Kind of near it. Lake called Lake Ermia. And during the chaos of World War One, you know, there had been

1:03:02 The Ottoman Empire was crumbling and All these people who had been under the Ottoman, like colonial yoke were seeking out their independence and their freedom and breaking off and In all that chaos. Basically I think what happened was they It was an easy time to get rid of a

1:03:20 Entire people group. You know, I actually Anatolia, you have an Anatolian Shepherd was a pretty Diverse place up until then. After that time it was basically just Turks and Kurds left. You know, like the the Greeks, the Assyrians, the Armenians kinda got all Ran out of there. In what were the reasons for running them out?

1:03:40 It's complicated. It's not History's not black and white. They were Minorities because those groups were Christian overall living in

1:03:51 You know, under the Ottoman Umbrella. And so Sporadically at times they would live okay, and then at times there would be big massacres and over the course of centuries there were just constant

1:04:03 It w it wasn't a pleasant way to live, I guess would be the quick way to put it. And so there's Sporadic. Massacres kind of all the time. And then so when World War One happened, uh you couldn't blame'em for winning independence, you know, and so A lot of

1:04:18 those Christian minorities join with the British or the Russians to try to Forge out their New nation states that were forming from the crumbling Ottoman Empire and At the same time nationalism was really rising and there was a big Turkey for the Turks movement. Like we don't want

1:04:35 Other people here. And that was ultimately the movement with the most power. And so when the Russian Empire collapsed from the Bolshevik Revolution They kinda left a vacuum. in these areas that had they'd kind of provided a bit of a defense for

1:04:52 And because of that crazy nationalist fervor that was going on, the Turks decided that they could just Kill or expel. All the minorities who You know, of course some of'em had been problematic and that there was like these freedom movements everywhere.

1:05:09 Collective punishment on a massive scale. And Obviously my My grandparents were kind of out of it because they were in Iran.

1:05:19 But when the Russian Presence left there. Went into there too. And it was basically at that point it was just a kind of a uncontrolled Well ultimately it would be a genocide it killed like

1:05:31 Seven hundred and fifty thousand Assyrians and a millions plus Armions and you know it was Quite a disaster. So my grandma and grandpa, both of them would ultimately be for all practical purposes sole survivors, like their families were completely wiped out. My grandpa was in a village when they were coming in and burning it down.

1:05:52 And his dad was in a wheel. Basically put a money belt on them and told them just Who's seventeen told him just run and don't look back. He looked back to see his dad's house on fire, you know, with his dad in it. He never knew what his sist happened to his sister.

1:06:06 Ended up getting taken in by some Jesuit. Priests and kind of raised in the There. And then uh My grandma had a different story where they The Ottoman Empire was still kind of conscious of like trying to put on a

1:06:22 Image to the world. And so instead of I mean there was plenty of just straight up massacres, but instead of They called them deportations, but they were kinda deportations to nowhere, so they just drove people out into the desert and marched them around until they Died and so my uh

1:06:38 Grandma and she had Seven siblings. And I'm on. Her dad was taken off to be shot. And then they

1:06:45 Just drove'em around in the desert until all but the mom, my great grandmother, and one sister of my grandma. We're left. You know, the baby just had died. And the mom fell down. It was like I just can't go on anymore and my Shalom, my grandma and Shushan like picked her up like we gotta keep going.

1:07:03 some point there they split off from the Guards or whatever. Stumble through and we're We're actually ended up being rescued by uh British.

1:07:12 Military like outpost type thing. And then they were Taken to a refugee camp. Mom and the sister Never recovered really. From just the trauma and then

1:07:23 Grandma. was sent to Baghdad and raised in a refugee camp. So these two people had kind of lost everything, even their like I mean the Assyrian People, nation kind of almost vanish. Like there's

1:07:37 Aramaic is what they speak. It's like almost a Gone language now. You know, it's just very just small fragments of it hanging on. So they've kind of lost everything. And then they met in Baghdad somehow, you know.

1:07:51 Got married. Immigrated. To France. Right, before World War Two. And then the you know, the Nazi invasion happened and there was a whole

1:08:01 Yeah, the whole series of stories from You know, kind of the deprivation at that time. They were already poor immigrants arriving there and then to like go through that whole not education and Then then they eventually made it to America and

1:08:16 Actually died not long after. So my Dad was ten when his parents died. And was raised by his sisters, but what What I find Something to be that I think about a lot.

1:08:29 Is that They ended up having eleven kids, you know, so they had a really big family. And I would go to all these family reunions with my aunts and uncles and my dad and this and that and they were just the most joyful, fun, so much love and joy and family and all this. It was a real bright spot in my childhood and then was just that Jonas family Stuff.

1:08:51 You almost take it for granted until you step back and you're like, Wait a second, we're one generation from Like this is my grandma and her dad you know grandpa. had their entire families wiped out and lost their whole culture and had to immigrate and give up everything and then had to do that again. And but somehow they've raised like a really Joyful family, like a full of people. And I'd like

1:09:14 Conversations were never about like Those people did that to us. And like this is what happened. You know, it was never Hate was never the common language. It was always Love and family and and now there's like some old grainy videos of grandma and grandpa and they and they're just laughing and eat you know, they've raised rabbits and Eating rabbit around the table and laughing and you think, Well, that's so interesting. I don't know what cross they bore and I know my dad said his dad used to always sit in his closet and pray and he's like

1:09:43 You know, I'm sure he had like a lot to deal with, but They didn't pass it down. One generation which is Impressive. You know, and and they and not only did it not pass it down, they built And

1:09:55 put into the world something really beautiful, which is My family, including my dad and So leading into what you're talking about. Dad. It's something that I think about regularly more than you would think because maybe I have a history and orientation, but just the fact that That's a legacy that

1:10:12 I have that we all have, you know, shared humanity, but What a thing to be able to live up to. Like I don't have to be defined by the Hard trip and a tragedy. In a negative way. It's like you can expect You can see how other people have risen to that occasion.

1:10:29 And come out of it and create it. And so when I find myself in a hard situation in the past or now or whatever, you know, you can you have that to Look at and hang on to having a choice. Yeah, you have a choice of how to relate to it. I mean, there were so many people and I they're just like You have every right to be fully traumatized and never recover. You know what I mean? Like I there's no

1:10:52 judgment on my front for that. But on the other hand it's like What about those few people that did somehow? Recover or what you know, I don't know what you would call it, but they somehow built something in the world. In spite of the Like unimaginable horrors, you know, watching your family and get

1:11:09 Killed and raped and all the things that went on and then just being able to Build a loving family is pretty impressive. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Well let's talk about your dad. I mean, whether by nature or nurture or both. Mm-hmm. He made s seemingly some pretty remarkable choices as well. Yeah, so he was grew up as uh obviously a son of immigrants in America and they was raised by mostly his sister, I don't know, you know, and so he

1:11:35 All I think he really wanted was a family and stability and Wanted to work hard and you know, his most joyful moments as uh when I was growing up was just When he'd come home from work and we'd run out and give him a hug. I think that was his like Life most fully lived. Well it's just being a provider and being able to

1:11:56 You know, he was an engineer, so it was Smart guy and you know they're like Yes. Create a family. That's really what he wanted. He was very family oriented. But then It was interesting'cause when he had also had

1:12:08 Childhood diabetes. And polio, so he had some health issues. And He wasn't great at managing his diabetes well, so When he was

1:12:18 Probably about When I was pretty young, I guess. No, he's still a teenager probably. He started uh You know, get the sores on your feet that you get. And then Basically because of the degrading

1:12:30 Situation with his feet, he lost his job. And All of a sudden he had to watch as my mom had to go back to school. Which was something that was very difficult for her'cause she's just not academic. But no longer could dad be the provider. He was basically somebody we had to care for. 'Cause he l ended up losing his foot and this and that. It was like a

1:12:51 twelve year process of his health degrading. And it was really hard for him. No, he's mom's going to school and we had to go to the food bank and I remember him just like Crying like oh we I failed. The one thing you wanted to do. Brutal.

1:13:06 A member and then his foot finally recovered and he and I went out in the woods and we were splitting wood and he like crushed his foot into the log splitter. Oh and it was Oh, deflate yourself. So then they just amputated his other foot and so Basically. He lost his ability, his physical ability to To pursue his purpose in the world.

1:13:28 That was really difficult for him to do. He had to watch his family suffer and this and that. And then but then it was interesting over the years to watch him Well, so from my perspective as a son, from my mom's perspective ever as a wife We never lost sight of his. You know, like we we knew who he was in our lives. It was never about the

1:13:48 money he was bringing home or the this or that. It was like then he What an encourager. And you know what a A joyful person and all that. And We never lost sight of that. He did.

1:13:59 But then it was interesting to see over The course of those twelve years of health degradation, how it was almost like He had to refine his purpose. And he did, and then at his when his health was at its worst and he was on dialysis and in tons of pain and stuff.

1:14:14 Was in a way when his like spiritual giftings or something were at their peak. Like he was really able to I could hear him at night crying in pain and like oh and then in the morning he would Oh Jordan you're doing great and this and that and let's Read this psalm together, or let's do this. You know, he was very much He re found his purpose in

1:14:33 Pooring and uh Uh. And into facing the loss of his health and his own death. With joy. And that's what he did. He find he was like finally he was like, Man, it's I'm in too much pain, it's too degrading.

1:14:46 You know, they've had me rolling him off the bed and take him to dialysis. He's like, I'm just gonna stop going to dialysis and That was a hard decision for him, but when he did It was just like all right, let's just party for the next two weeks, you know, he's diabetic so finding that he could eat all the Crap food he was tons of laughs and

1:15:05 He was kind of full of joy right up until the end. And you're like, What a cool legacy to see someone Face all that and see purpose. Not in their life even, but even in how to face death and The way he did that.

1:15:18 We're all gonna be in the same position where we lose our Whether it are health or Whatever. Inevitable suffering is coming down the hatch. I now have a template For how to face that in a way that I'm still

1:15:31 putting into the world some kind of light because I could see that it's not only possible, but you know, I could see the template for doing that. So it's interesting, having seen that. It really makes you Grateful for the like The blessing I have now and that I do know what I love to do and that I have an opportunity to

1:15:48 Share it with others. I know my even like my purpose now as it is. But I also know that's gonna have to evolve. With Inevitabilities of aging and uh and everything else and so

1:16:00 It's interesting to Make sure your priorities now are in such a way that As you have to Shift directions that You'll be able to make that.

1:16:10 adjustment like they should rhyme. It's not gonna be something completely different. That's just gonna Evolve into it. When you think of your dad's Purpose.

1:16:22 changing over those twelve years. Mm-hmm. Is one way to view it as him going from prioritizing how he acted in the world, like how he does things in the world to how he then supports and teaches The rest of you in the family? I mean, was he taking on more of a teacher role? Was it a supporter role? I mean maybe not explicitly.

1:16:45 But definitely implicitly. His gifting was that he really was an encourager and was really joyful and You know, people enjoyed being around him. And he was able to lean into those skills. those gifts in spite of the fact that he couldn't walk or that he couldn't have hands or whatever. And so

1:17:05 I think you lean into those giftings that you have. That are Not Dependent on what you on your ability to produce, you know, which is great while you have it.

1:17:17 After he stopped dialysis. How long did he last after that? It was about a week. It wasn't as long even as we expected. You know, like I might be up to two weeks or whatever. I at about a I think about a week in. His temperature just spiked and then that was it. We were all around and did you at Time. Understand his decision. To be honest, I actually

1:17:39 He was really struggling with it'cause Yeah, he was also a man of faith and I remember him reading you know, he was like 'Cause he really was having a hard time hanging on, you know,'cause of just the pain, the amount of pain he was in and stuff. But he was like, it says Here, you know.

1:17:55 The Lord will never give you more than you can bear. And I remember actually in conversation with them well, that's actually not true, Dad. Like everybody that's died was given more than a bear. It says it won't tempt you beyond your bill ability to Bear which is a different thing, you know, you're kind of on a different realm there. And so we had that conversation. So it's not that I was I wanted him to hang on as long as possible, but I also wanted him to have the freedom We talked a lot about how it's weird in the m modern world where you have this

1:18:23 choice that we've never had in the past where you have to now choose when to stop going to dialysis or stop doing this or that. Or you can just drag on your Inevitable downfall, kind of forever. And so I think it was ultimately

1:18:38 It just came down to the fact that he wasn't ever gonna get better. He recognized that. He was in a lot of pain and I think he wanted to free In an a final act, you know, you kinda free us up too, probably. So I'm gonna I'm gonna use the Some of the kind of promises and perils of modern healthcare, like you said. Two

1:18:58 Extend the runway. Sometimes in cases where the quality of life Just entails so much suffering or lack of awareness that it just it raises a lot of ethical questions, right? That we didn't have to face Two hundred years ago, three hundred years ago.

1:19:15 Just to take a closer look at Modern living. And specifically where I wanna go with that. Is uh

1:19:25 Maybe we could take it to our trip in the mountains because Particularly since we weren't doing any hunting. If you're hunting then you have to time your rhythm with your quarry and it's a different situation. But I remember asking you at one point, I was like, So when we w waking up tomorrow and you're like, Well When we want to wake up. I suppose the And this comes back to the Ivanki as well.

1:19:49 and living in a settlement where You are managing someone else's property or A an employee of the government versus having More

1:20:04 flexibility in the way you structure your life in your days. And I would just love you to hear you riff on sort of Overstructure versus too little structure versus where humans kind of naturally fall. The first glimpse I got of this way of life that we've lost in the modern context was actually riding trains where it's like you wake up in the morning, I don't have anything I have to do. I just gotta figure out where to get food and water and That's basically it.

1:20:30 Can you give us like a minute or two of just like how On earth did you end up hopping trains? The quick minute or two of that was that my brother had For whatever reason, done it for years. He hitchhiked and didn't like relying on people to pick'em up. Somehow he heard about riding trains, jumped on one.

1:20:47 And probably a lot to do with this freedom that we're about to discuss. Just loved it. And you know, and then Ten years he basically or seven or eight or ten, however many years he Just rode trains and at some point when I was eighteen or so invited me to go along and And so I did, which was probably a

1:21:04 fork in my road just from having a job and doing the stuff to all of a sudden. Yeah. But what you glimpse what I think is the appeal there is that that rhythm of life that humans are designed for, that we've lived for as long as humans have been around. Then I would really get immersed in again living with the natives later, where yeah, you wake up and you have a things you have to do, but there's no particular schedule. They're all directly tied to your

1:21:33 Existence right now. Yeah, you're not m working to make money to But in your four oh one K so that Later. This you know, it's just all very direct. It's like oh Let's go catch some fish today. We're hungry or m the reindeer might be getting away. Let's go herd them back and you know, you kinda have

1:21:50 These uh activities that are directly related to your life and in that you wouldn't know the proper terminology, but it feels like your dopamine and your serotonin and all that kinda stuff is just lined up properly. Well, you're living the way that we have evolved evolved to live. Exactly. So you're in the right mold, basically for that. And I've described it before, but when you're successful on a hunt or when you're like Get into some good fish and you're in that

1:22:17 Rhythm. So you just couldn't be more joyful than that. There's just no more That's it. That's your max human experiences. This is amazing. Yeah. And we didn't have to. earn a bunch of money and it is it's just a it's just so much more accessible in a way. It also makes me think about

1:22:35 Sorry to jump in, but when you're talking about your brother and his German Shepherd Who had never done any herding. And a couple of goats like running amok. And your brother started trying to gather them and the German shepherd just clicked into what it is artificially evolved to do. And boom, it was off to the races.

1:23:04 Humans are not that different. No, we're not. And and we have so many layers on top of that. Simplicity that sometimes it gets It all feels like hacks, you know, as we know, like even you look on your phone, oh I got seven likes. Just a little hack of our

1:23:20 berry picking reception but it's not you never quite fully get there. It was always a little bit hard to articulate. I was like I just life feels just more realistic. You're more like In the world. Difficult to articulate. Well, it seems very tangible in the sense that like you're dealing with fewer layers of abstraction. Yeah. Yeah. You're not like I'm gonna do this thing to then ensure this other thing.

1:23:49 That will give me more happiness in the future. It's like Mm. I know I'm gonna need to eat in a few hours or I'd prefer to eat or need to eat in a few hours. You get fast, but you're like I kinda like to eat. Yeah, yeah. I'd like to be warm. Yeah. Okay. I'd like to sleep tonight. So it's like okay. Well effect are very related. It's very easy to track. Mm-hmm. And not just track, but like

1:24:15 Have the gratification of individual cause and effect. Yeah, and it uh that's very tangible. And it was so much so that this is only a working hypothesis, but When I was living with the natives. Yeah, I had the issue that I it wasn't my native language and as much as they were, you know, I love those people and they're my friends, it wasn't like my family. It wasn't the people that you grow up with, you know. But I was like, I wonder if everybody would choose this way of life if it was

1:24:41 In a little bit more pleasant climate. And with the two modern with the two modern a little bit. Maybe a negative twenty and not negative fifty. Modern medicine and food security are amazing. And so Aside from that, it's like I wonder if people wouldn't choose this way of life. Even people that just have no idea that they might like the outdoors.

1:25:03 Sidebar experience that sometimes comes along with us. You were talking about a little bit earlier today. But can you talk about The bear incident specifically that you were mentioning earlier with your friend with the gun. We had it. This is a time where we'd kinda gone out in the woods and a bunch of we'd taken a bunch of the younger dudes that were living in the village and kinda drinking and my fur trapping buddy has his big fur trapping territory and he was like at least you get these kids out there and just like spend a summer You know, and have'em living off the land. And just because I'm curious, is this Sable or what are they? Sable's what they fur trap.

1:25:39 So we were uh spend uh a summer out on that territory invited a A handful of these guys and it was Great, we had a horse out there and you know, cutting hay with for it and all that with the psi and Living off the land, basically, all that we've fished and hunted. Well One day we came out I heard my my buddy was sleeping and he woke up and he was like

1:25:59 And you can hear the Dog's barking like crazy. Well, we woke up and I thought, Man, that dumb dog, it just barks at every squirrel, this or that. And so I didn't get up and look. Well My buddy goes out to brush his teeth and runs back in, There's a bear out there. I jumped up and we look out and a bear just Hundred and fifty yards, you know, not far at all from our cabin had killed a moose.

1:26:19 What kind of bears are we talking about? These are brown bears, just some kind of brown bear in Siberia. And the uh Burny mid. Bigger than a black bear. Yeah, bigger than Black Bear, some kind of a Grizzly. So we come out and the bear like took off up in the woods and what is that laying over there and

1:26:35 Sure enough, it's a big fresh warm moose, Oh no way. So we It was a windfall for us. So of course we like cut it up and take it back to camp. We dug a big Pit into the permafrost, you know. As a makeshift. fridge and threw the meat in there and then a few days later that bear came back with a

1:26:53 Vengeance. Like he was not pleased. He came back First. Sign was one of our dogs just ran into the little cabin and under the And then the other one we started hearing barking outside. And then the bear was There was a lot of tall brush in the area.

1:27:09 So we could just hear I could just hear the bear just like Through the ripping through the brush and then ripping this way and that. I was like, Oh, it was pretty intense right off the bat. And I was like, Holy crap, so I grabbed the SKS, which is like a Assault rifles basically what they use to hunt over there. And run out of the cabin and like go kinda towards where the dog's barking.

1:27:29 Yeah, I figure the bear was over there. So I'm walking over towards this bark and then Yorka, one of the younger guys, was behind me and When we just hear this. The bear was right behind us and snorted and like whoa like flip around and then it just charged through the alders and we're like ho Well that was crazy. Like what's the dog barking at so then then you could hear this

1:27:52 I was like, Oh here, you take the gun. I'm gonna take the my little three megapixel camera I had at the time. And that's your reflex. Logan gonna take some photos. Seems like a guy perfect time. It was a bad choice in the end, but I uh Anyway, give the gun New York. Same thing, we're like kind of Paying attention to where we last heard the chaos. And again the bear was behind us, like move and snorted again.

1:28:17 And Jurka just took off running with the gun. And he full on ran and disappeared from my sight. I had had my knee issues we discussed earlier. So I actually couldn't run, nor would I want to uh from a predator. So I kinda just stood there. I was like Like, oh my gosh, like I'm just here with now what do I do with my stupid five megapixel camera. And so anyway, he was gone a long it felt like a very long time. It was probably uh thirty seconds to a minute. Like a good enough long time that I was like, What in the world? And then finally he comes back and his knees and he's like I can't do this, my knees are shaken. And I was like I was like, You got the gun, like don't run. And then right as I said that, the bear like stood up in front of us and he just boom boom boom boom boom boom and filled his whole magazine into it and it took off and Yeah, we ended up

1:29:05 Getting it. Which of we you know, then we uh laughed at'em'cause we were joking around, but they had always been telling me like You know that's a Vinky, one shot, one kill. And then it was like Vietnam and we're like But then uh It was a crazy ex you know, it's pretty intense. And then

1:29:24 It was also interesting'cause I was the first bear. That I was with them with when they killed and they had this whole Ritual is how they honored the bear. The word the Ivanky word for bear is grandpa. Amaka. And then they uh Take the eyeballs out. They took the eyeballs out and put'em under a rock so that when the

1:29:42 Spirit of the bear came back. It wouldn't see who did what to it. And then the funny the better part was they took the death things and threw them in the river. So when it did come back, it would be the neighboring village. But Yeah, it was a that was a pretty intense little moment there. Brandu.

1:30:04 One more story. I mean these are all gonna be stories. We're gonna do one more story. S some of the native hunters are better than others. I'm gonna Q also involves moose, if I'm not mistaken. Canoe? Oh, this is great. Yeah, this is another hilarious story. So there are these two

1:30:24 In the mid sixties women that were gonna come out to the tribe. So there's this the village, the native village, five hundred people. It was about a twelve hour float from A place that's a common stop that the nomad often stop. So they had found out that we were gonna be there, so this old ladies were gonna come out and visit the tribe. Well, they got

1:30:46 It's just a twelve hour float, so you don't really need much to get there at the end of the day and can eat when you get there. So all they brought, as you any native did, would be an axe. And so they untied their rope. It was an aluminum boat and jumped in the boat and they're just floating along. Well Actually two You know, senior citizen women floating down. And there's a moose swimming across the the the lake and as you do they're th we gotta kill this thing, we'll be the heroes or whatever. So they rode up next to it.

1:31:19 And with the rope that was attached to the front of their boat. They lasso over the I don't know if it was the antlers or the neck of this thing, but at the same time they had the axe, they pictured themselves like Chopping it in the neck and trying to kill it. Oh, it of course got traction on the shore and the on the water before they were able to pull that off and took off into the woods and skied these ladies in this boat behind them like several hundred yards up into the woods before it finally went through these two trees and snapped the rope off and it disappeared.

1:31:49 And those ladies like no just were gone for a few days. Yeah. Sit by the side of the river until the next people they couldn't carry their boat, so they just sat there until finally somebody floated by that could help'em. Drag their boat back to the water and The lady they made it out, the lady was

1:32:08 Very funny'cause she was we then had to get back to the village eventually. It's like a You know, by land it was like a thirty kilometer reindeer ride and Poor lady. And I had the same problem. I would always fall off the reindeer. And but she was uh uh the only other person that apparently had that problem'cause they just put the saddle on loosely. It's not like a horse saddle where you kinda cinch it up.

1:32:32 They just throw it on and it kinda wobbles, but they get used to it and so they can kinda ride along and And it took me a long time to get used to, but obviously it took her also a long time. And I was walking, but we were in the rain and that poor lady every time we crossed a river or a puddle or anything there's a They keep lifting her back on, but it was very funny. That was a great, great story. I I just

1:32:57 They're different breed of people that When grandma sees the moose swimming across the river decided to catch it in the neck Yeah. Alright, so I'd be remiss if we didn't talk a little bit about

1:33:11 Alone, which is probably the only let's call it reality TV show that I've watched In the last decades. Six and seven. The word on the street. Otherwise known as the Internet was that season six. Which you were part of.

1:33:30 And season seven were kind of Two of the highlights. With some. Insane. Fucking

1:33:37 events that transpire in these two seasons. If you ever have to, yeah, I had to Well, had to. I chose after elbow surgery to do hyperbaric oxygen treatments for a host of reasons. Um Sidebar on that if you're gonna do that. Needs to be hard shell.

1:33:54 Medical grade, you know, uh typically like two to two point five atmospheres. Don't do any soft shell stuff. It's a waste of time. But What do you do? You're just sitting there. And especially in a hard chill, you can't bring anything in. But they set up TVs. And so So my guilty pleasure turned into watching these multiple seasons of Alone. So For the season that you were a part of. Mm-hmm.

1:34:18 The format of the show. changed a bit over time. But it was referred to Along the lines of kind of the the Super Bowl of survival. Right. Right. And In your particular season, season six.

1:34:34 What was the format? The quick summary of the show is yeah, the ten people go out in the woods all by yourself, you self film, it's all s And you get to pick up. Ten basic tools like an axe and a ferrow rod and a sleeping bag and a few things like that. And then They drop you all off in different areas in the wilderness and the person that lasts the longest wins and hypothetically

1:34:57 You know, indefinitely. I think maybe there was a year cut off, but hypothetically a year plus you might stay out there if people really get into a groove. So So yeah, that was the format of the season. It's a fairly simple concept. North West Territories, Canada, so Or just south of the Arctic Circle, right at the Not warm. Not warm, not warm. But conveniently

1:35:21 Very similar parallel to where I was in Siberia. So Yeah, I'm very I mean the the m it seems like having watched Two seasons and some other shows also that we're gonna be. I mean alone is my favorite. I mean you learn so much if you're into any um degree of this is a great show, honestly. You really learn a lot because you get to see a lot of different approaches and what seems to work and what doesn't. And there are multiple approaches that seem to work. Yeah.

1:35:48 Right? Yeah, just get I mean no, seriously, don't try to build like Abraham Lincoln Law Cabin, that image in your mind. Don't try to do that. But then you uh you got like Stonehouse in season seven. Like I mean I probably wouldn't have tried to do it because I'd be afraid of Like blowing a gasket. For sure. But it worked. Yeah. Uh very different from the shelter that you built. Yep. Yep. Let's talk about the tools for a second. Mm-hmm. Because there were things that were not would not be obvious to someone watching the show that I found interesting. For instance, when we were out in the woods You showed me

1:36:23 This is gonna require a little explanation. So you'll have to explain what basic paracord could be used for. But the you've got this Looks like a transatlantic cable of paracord. Which was not allowed on the show. It was not allowed. You had to have basically. But it's a single cord that has like fishing line and filament and All sorts of things. Yeah, super handy little. What is that called? It's called survival cord. And it has uh you know uh

1:36:50 Tinder material inside of it you can pull out it's kind of a wax coated. thing uh catches sparkwell and then it has uh snare, like Kevlar cable, so you make a snare and then it has uh Fishing line and then the regular string that usually comes in the paracord. And Paracord is just uh string that has an outer sheath and then a bunch of little inner strands that are more like individual strings and they're kinda twisted together and make for a strong

1:37:15 Rope. Or you can break it down and the Useful. Turn it into a gill net. Yeah, turn into a gill net, which is which proves to be seems to be one of the winning Yeah, gillnet's hard to beat. It's such a passive way of collecting food in there. What is that? A gillnet is a It's just a big net that you

1:37:34 throw in the water and set in the water in such a way that fish swimming by get caught in it. Fish can't back up. So when they swim into a net, if it's sized properly to their body and gills. They'll get caught in it. And then they just sit there. So just for definition of terms. Snare kinda similar, right? In the sense that you're trying to get A given animal. Mm-hmm. Around the neck. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And you have to size it properly.

1:37:58 Yeah, so snaring is another Uh in a actual survival situation, it's kinda the Not the golden ticket, but incredibly important. You know, it's also usually illegal in most places'cause it's really effective. But if you're Really starting it would be

1:38:14 Yeah, you size to what you're trying to catch, so Like a hair would be about the size of your fist. You make a piece of wire or If you only have string. loop about that big set it on the trail and do some things to try to sorry I'm laughing because another story just came to mind. Wait.

1:38:33 So Mm in another example of footage you're not gonna see on the show. So I give'em points. A medical team would come out. Right. And check on participants and I can't remember the exact parameters, but if you're like losing too much body weight or they'd schedule occasional visits to to get your S D cards, give you new batteries, and then just make sure you're

1:38:58 You know, not critically in danger with your health. No. I think you were telling me that one point when they were doing a medical check. for you that you'd set up uh remind me of what this called for squirrel pole squirrel pole squirrels like to run up things and then across exactly have a power line in front of your ass. So what what is yeah, explain how you just roughly how you build this thing. Whatever reason squirrels are

1:39:27 They just love running up things and then across things. And so, you know, that's why you see them running on the power lines and everywhere. And so you can take advantage of that to catch him by Clearing all the branches off of a couple of trees and then running a pole between those two trees and then throwing a couple of snares along that pole and eventually some squirrel will run up and zip across. Especially if you see one in the area. What does that look like when a when a medical check is being done right behind it. It was kinda funny'cause it was early on. It was like uh you know, maybe the second week or something and they they still had this crew member guy who

1:40:02 I thought it was hilarious.'Cause they really the you know, of course it's alone, so they try to be really stoic. They don't want to give you like actual human interaction. But This one guy was just like, Whoa, hell yeah. This is awesome. I liked what was going on out there. But they all come walking in for the You're set up. Yeah, for the medical check and scared a squirrel and it ran up and hung itself and it was like sitting there kicking while the guys walked by, but he was that one British guy in particular, Whoa, hell yeah. Thanks guys. The they accidentally helped me cheat there. So how long how long did you ultimately

1:40:41 Last. Seventy seven days. And is it fair to say that lasts is the wrong word to use because my understanding and conversations with you is that it was Of course the television has to be edited in such a way.

1:40:57 Mm-hmm. That everyone is going through this crucible with Coming close to glancing off the breaking point. But it doesn't seem like it was that hard for you. Yeah, it really wasn't. It could have been. Well, you know, it's the woods, you never know what's gonna happen, but

1:41:14 Man, that was going really well. I actually You know, I snared a bunch of rabbits, had like twenty something plus rabbits before I got the moose, which I got a moose at day twenty, and then from then on I really nailed the fishing and I just was Piling up food like crazy and Just because of my previous experience for, you know, years at a time in Russia, I wasn't couple few, three, four months there just didn't seem like a long time away from the family because I knew

1:41:41 our relationship was strong and January could handle it and I'd come back and We'd catch up and it'd all be. Good. But I bore a lot of stress because I didn't know

1:41:52 How long the show would last. So I was Which is something that changed in season seven. Yeah, it was a big difference in season seven, but the in the next season they capped it at a hundred days, which had that been my season would have been interesting'cause I once you get the moose, I could have just Basically. party and you know, enjoyed myself. But

1:42:10 Because I got this movie. It was a lesson I learned a lesson that I learned. Yeah. On the show, right? Yeah, yeah. And something that I really noticed out there was I should have been more present in the moment because I did allow myself to stress about this future. You know, it's like, okay, I got a moose. Now I'm getting fish.

1:42:31 Surely somebody else is. So Man, we're gonna be out here in six, eight months. And I lost some fat, so now I'm gonna lose. So I had like it's uh I can't be out here eight months and lose. So I was uh Bearing a lot of stress because I didn't actually As much as I would advise myself if I were to go on again, like just

1:42:48 Be in the present. You know, don't worry about that future. What happened is Yeah, I was gunning for hundred and forty days before I even thought it might end and Hadn't even allowed the thought to cross my mind that it would. had a lot of food to get there and then it ended at day seventy seven.

1:43:05 I can't say I ever thought I was gonna win. Like I didn't I went out there to win'cause I wasn't like trying to prove anything, but I was just you know, you try to keep going stride and keep just see what happens. I'm just gonna go out there and see if I can be sustainable. But I was genuinely shocked when it ended and Thought it was gonna go quite a bit longer, so

1:43:23 But let me tackle a couple of things. Because There are a number of details that I think might be instructive to get into. Mm-hmm. So First let's talk about the basic tools.

1:43:35 I'm amazed. I don't wanna give too many spoilers, but like w one of your competitors made a Shocking decision, which was to not bring a Far. And that was that was that was that was that was a very risky maneuver. ended up making it work. But in part he was very good with something called Bowrill. Look up Bow Drill Online. We probably it but it's using friction to create a fire.

1:44:01 But if you're accustomed to using softer wood and then you go into alpine territory, and it's much, much, much harder wood, you got a problem on your hands. Yeah, he was able to find a cedar board which doesn't grow up there. Yeah. You're allowed to use anything that you find. So tin cans or barrels or whatever might be effectively human garbage or things that have been washed up on the shore. So ten basic tools. What did you choose to bring? I took an axe. A saw.

1:44:31 Uh leatherman, which is like a multi tool as a knife and pliers and stuff. And a Frying pan And a Farrow rod, sleeping bag,

1:44:45 Um Bow and arrow. You get like bows and arrow. A fishing kit. Trapping wire and paracord. And trapping wire was just uh engage solid stainless steel wire. Mm-hmm.

1:44:59 And then uh You could create the gill net out of the paracord. Yeah, so I got the I've thought about bringing a gillnet, but then I just thought I'll bring a paracord, I can make a gillnet and the paracord will come in handy for other things too. So What are some of the things that we're going to common mistakes if you look at what people choose to bring. What are certain things they choose to bring? Let's leave aside a gill net, right? Because you can create that. Yeah. What are some other would you say mistakes?

1:45:25 I mean I always with my own biases always think when someone doesn't bring an axe I'm on really? But I have my own you know, how you gonna get through the ice and how you gonna they're just they're so handy. But I brought a saw, which in hindsight I probably should have just brought a gill net and had Two instead of making the one and have it you know, anyway, I do think not bringing a fire starter is a poor choice because it's just So much stress. You know, you have to bear so much stress of not letting your fire go out and

1:45:55 Everything's harder, so you have to be really conscious of the fact that Things like staying hydrated. is super important. And so if there's an extra step to Hydration. You're gonna drink a little bit less water. If you're drinking out of

1:46:11 A natural source. You want to boil that water. Yeah, you typically. So if you're gonna boil it and then you have to like start a bow drill fire to boil your water, then all of a sudden You're also burning a lot of calories. Yeah. It's it just becomes a stressor and you don't want your fire to go out at night because you gotta wake up. So I think that's A big one. Some people are really good with bow drills.

1:46:31 But I still think it's not worth the trade off. Yeah. Well, I was really into bringing a bow. I mean you do need practice with a bow to be effective with it, but I can't tell you how much time I spent. enjoying myself just hiking through the woods because I could maybe shoot a squirrel or maybe get a grouse. Well that's something that stood out to me is that And I think one of the stronger competitors in season seven did something very similar where

1:46:56 It wasn't that you would necessarily go out on a dedicated large mammal, or let's just say you wouldn't go out on a dedicated hunt, but if you went out to do anything, you just bring the bow. Big the bow, yeah, because it's like it On your way to your fishing spot or on your way to get fired, what it and it just gives you always something to do and it gives you always that Oh, is there a rabbit or is there something, so you're kind of having more you're more engaged. Where is it fight? didn't have the hadn't taken the bow, it would have been a lot of time where it's like, Boy, how many arrows are you allowed to bring? Nine. Nine.

1:47:27 Seems like a lot or a little I don't know if I chose nine. Committee out of a long debate that landed on nine. Substantial number of arrows. I never had an issue with it. What type of tips did you bring? So I brought Blunt tips. Which are Judo points, except they weren't Specifically Jude Pointing the Nuance. But yeah. You don't want a sharp blade when you're shooting small game'cause you don't want to just shoot right through the animal.

1:47:55 You wanna like hit it and Blunt force kinda to knock it out and kill it. And so for small game I had five of those and then I had For Broadheads. Mm-hmm. Which are just sharp blades. What type of how many blades?

1:48:10 Two blade, they were VPA. Mm-hmm. Like just solid Steel. Broadheads no just so that they were tough and I could

1:48:18 Yeah, sharpen'em on the fly and all that. So the moose. corring or fencing. I mean fencing gives people an image that maybe is not exactly the right image. Right, right. But Animals are really good at taking the path of least resistance. Right, right. Right. This is a it's a it's something you employ when you're trying to snare'em, when you're trying to do anything to catch an animal. You just take advantage of the fact that we all take the path least resistance. So what do you what do you do? So

1:48:45 I was actually out there, you know, I'd done a lot of calling, a lot of Placing my shelter in the proper wind location and doing all this to make try to make a moose encounter happen. And I had set up a trip wire that would signal a tin can so that it would like if a moose came by I would know. And then I went out.

1:49:03 had a forty yard shot at a moose and I missed. And long story short, it was a big fail on my part, but I remember watching that moose run away just like Oh you idiot. Like how'd you do that? You know, you get used to Screwing up and failing. When you're in the woods like that by yourself. Whining isn't gonna help. There's nobody else you can blame anything on. It's like you literally better solve your problem or you're screwed. So it's like

1:49:28 I was disappointed I missed the moose, but at the same time I was immediately it's still running away. I was like, How do I make this happen again? Like I got like It just made me more determined to learn from what I just did and then as I was watching it run away. It just kinda dawned on me that there's I mean I don't know how far apart, but You know, they're just kind of a little bit more.

1:49:47 Hills, two hills. It's not like there were cliffs or anything, but hills. Animals are gonna go through the low point there because it's easy. And then I just remember, Oh, we built those fences in Russia. Like, should I really Because what had happened is it had come on a kind of unexpected path. So I wasn't really quite set up to get'em, but I was like, Well, I guess I'm not here to starve. I'm here to like

1:50:08 make it happen like a action oriented So I went over there and Decided to try to build one of those fences and funnel the'cause I remember even the native saying before guns they used to funnel. Animals with Fences like that. So can you explain when you say fence, right? That might involve

1:50:27 Chopping down some saplings and kinda knocking them over basic, yeah. So that you're creating obstacles. Something like a moose does not want to have to step over or navigate. So they go kind of where you intend them to go. Yeah, yeah. So I had kinda set up the same tin can alarm system and then I had found a nice shooting bush that I could shoot from and get to with relative cover. And then I built a fence, but again it was just I hadn't even finished it when it ended up working, but it was just uh you know, in the with the natives we'd do four rows. So four rows of

1:51:03 You know, arm thick. Logs kind of stacked. In such a way that they hold up into a fence looking. Okay, so it did look like it's a fence when it's done. But I just Initially did one rung, you know, like the the first rung

1:51:17 And ran it all the way across. How long did that take to create? Probably a couple days. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was a calorie risk and expenditure, but It was clear to win if I was starving and so I was just I wanna like get food and so

1:51:32 I uh Built that. Bunnel. And then actually the N not long after I was out pulling a

1:51:39 Again, I hadn't even finished it yet. I was pulling a rabbit out of a snare of all things and I heard that can clank. I was like, Oh, what is something's coming, no way ran over there. Strolling along my fence to the opening where I was and it I worked amazingly well. You know, it was the morning after I'd spent the whole evening calling the moose and Was able to put an arrow in it in uh what was the distance on that? Like twenty four yards. See I mean that's like

1:52:06 That's the payoff. Forty yards. I mean look, I Yeah, recurve. I do a lot of recurve and I would not put money on myself for a four yard shot on a moving target. Nor would I. But when you're starving, why have a couple shots it's actually doable. You can kind of correct, but in my miss I had only had one arrow with me at the time. So Yeah. So I hit it and it was actually felt like a really good shot.

1:52:33 But He took off. Like, you know, I'm gonna wait an hour, let him kinda just calmly uh you know, if you're bow hunting, one thing you realize is like a lot of times the animal doesn't see you when you shoot it. And it's quiet and it gets hit. It doesn't know what happened, so it's gonna run away over somewhere and like lay down. It doesn't feel good.

1:52:50 And so Usually when that first place it lays down because it doesn't think it's getting chased per se. It just lays there and then it slowly bleeds out and it's you know, about as calm of a way you can probably go as a wild animal, but What happens if you

1:53:04 get too eager and start running after this animal you put an arrow in is it'll If it sees you, it'll then know it's getting chased. And they'll get the second wind. And just take off and run and by then they'll no longer be bleeding as much and Very often people lose animals like that. So

1:53:22 Fortunately I was aware of that. Waited a good long time. You waited a while also. I mean more than more than an hour ultimately. Yeah, it was about an hour and then I well and then I started tracking it and that great blood trail and then it just started to dry up and the ground had been like an old burn and so it was hard and they weren't tracks.

1:53:42 And I was like, No way am I gonna lose this movie so I get stressed, like no way. And I that lost its blood trail and Yeah, just sitting there thinking as like, Well, the last thing I can do is it's gonna take the path of least resistance once again, particularly when it's wounded. So I just

1:53:56 I did it a few times where I stood in the woods and then you just kinda walk through As if you were gonna go, where does it take you? And go with the flow. And Sure enough. You know, five hundred yards up or whatever there it was laying there, Oh, no way. Duck down and it was still alive and so

1:54:14 No, it's fifty something yards away and it's like, Man, I can either try to stick another arrow in it, in which case it's either gonna run away. Maybe I kill it, or maybe it charges me. And a thirty percent chance of each. So My best bet is to just watch it and let it calmly finish its process and so That was a very long

1:54:34 couple hours honestly watching it. It would stand up and I'd My heart would sink, like No No No And then it would lay back down like Ah yes. Stand up. Very emotional roller coaster. And finally it stood up and tipped over and We were talking about earlier, but the joy that I felt is uh was irreplaceable and I ca you almost can't match it. I just that demon of starvation that for

1:54:58 Three weeks now just chewing out, you're gonna starve, you're gonna starve. Slayed that How much meat do you get off a moose like this? Oh, it was hard to say. I probably had I'd be a little bit guessing maybe four or five hundred pounds. I don't know. Yeah, it's a big animal. Yeah, big animal. And then you have all the bone marrow and the brain and you know, organ stuff. Talk about I don't know if people like eating liver, but I got myself sick of it. You got a liver the size of

1:55:25 My body, you know, and I got there's no way to preserve it, so you gotta eat that thing first. Why can't you preserve the liver versus other things? Usually things that are really bloody, you know, like have a lot of blood in them spoil fast. So same with like fish, if you catch a fish, there's a blood line in there that you wanna scrape out or it'll spoil. Oh and gills carry blood, so you want to rip those out or it'll spoil. any animal that you're gonna preserve. You just wanna make sure it's bled really well. And liver, for whatever reason, is just Saturated. Saturated. And there's no way to drain it. You know.

1:55:59 No man, I'd plenty of vitamins there for a while. God, I'm just thinking of the OD of vitamins that you have. Yeah, for you uh adventurous eaters out there, don't eat a polar bear liver in one sitting. Yeah, yeah, uh vitamin A will do you in. Uh so you mentioned yeah, it's a fat stolen. Noticed Yeah. Some very

1:56:28 unique earrings on your wife this morning. These may tie together. Yeah, they're so happens to tie together. What were the what were the earrings? Man, so you get you know, you're out there and you're th things are going well, but you're still living on the edge, you know, and Little mistakes can be the difference between surviving or not. And so You know, even the process of keeping your Self hydrated like we talk about, is is elaborate and involved and thought out.

1:56:57 Walk into your fishing hole. It's like, Oh, I better take some ash so I can sprinkle on the really icy spots and th you know, everything's thought out and so The last thing you need is this whole extra variable coming in and adding a bunch of difficulty. Well, one morning I went out and I'd set my meat out on a shelf with this like kinda half hearted Not half hearted, but you know, maybe a bear'll come and if a bear comes I can shoot that from my shelter, so I could maybe double up and get a almost like a ready made bait pile. But I hadn't even really thought about the fact is that there's wolverines up there and that they might show up and I might not hear it or notice it as much. And so I came out one morning and I

1:57:34 Stored Probably ninety thousand calories worth of fat in this gallon jug. I don't know how much is in a gallon, but Full gallon of fat. And I came out and there's like the day I was like, Okay, I'm gonna render that fat and I come and I started looking around like what are these tracks?

1:57:49 Huh, that's interesting. And then it just You slowly start to have something don't you're like No And then I noticed my jug was gone and then I was Oh, those are Wolverine tracks. And like, oh no, and just like ran down the tracks. You know, pointless. That thing's long gone. And so I came back and I was like, Oh no, I'm like got a wolverine here. And one thing you notice about the woods when you have meat

1:58:12 Every forest. free loader knows you have the meat. And so like all the J's And all the you know, the wolves were coming around and the wolverine now and just Everybody's coming to get your meat. And that wolverine, they're known as being some of the most ferocious animals, you know, on earth and just They're like that honey badger video everybody's seen, but

1:58:33 They're much larger and on steroids. It's like a I guess it it's technically in the Weasel Ball thing. It's like if you took a weasel and put it on every performance enhancing drug imaginable. Like Dolph Lungren and Rocky Four. And and gave it on top of that just like a very irritable combative demeanor. I mean, they're not huge, like forty pounds or whatever, but they fight off wolf packs, they take down full grown moose. Yeah, so just think about that for a second, guys. Forty pound animal. How much does a moose weigh?

1:59:08 Yeah, like a thousand pounds. I mean, that's insane. They just grab on and there's been stories of'em holding on to a moose's neck. For days until the thing suffocates of of blood loss and die. So terrifying. They make up for their size and just being aggressive. And I was my first time of really dealing with one like that. And so and I was he kept

1:59:31 surprising me with how bold he was, you know, kind of figure, Okay, that'll take care of it. And then all of a sudden, Whoa, right in front of me, and he run by and grab a chunk of meat and run off. No way. And so basically they were it came down to the fact that it was either me or him on this island and That was very clear. And he was claiming my meat and this and that and I Made a long Tripwire again for'em and with the cam. With the can, which it proved to be a really useful tool. And then uh

2:00:01 Yeah, one night I heard that thing clank came out of my shelter. This was after the previous night of the similar situation happening and I didn't take a shot at the Wolverine'cause he was behind a bush. And so this next night I was like, I'm just if I get a chance, I'm gonna take it. Came out and he was behind a bush. I could see his eying and I Just sent an arrow in there. It ricocheted through and

2:00:21 hit him, but I could see him spinning around. I didn't know what was exactly how I had hit him, so I just grabbed the axe and ran over there and I got over there and he lunged at me. And I could still s I can see the ground. Yeah, but he had like Been pinned to the ground in the Part of the arrow was stuck in the ground and part of it was hung up on the alders, so it like caught his lunge.

2:00:41 And I swan and it Eviscerated'em. And then he spun around and was like grabbing at his own injury. The next one again and again. You know, but but I definitely have this mental image of his teeth and his jump right at me like

2:00:55 Yeah, it was good to expend it. I mean I I think I would have still won, but it would have been a lot more of a We would have both suffered a lot more. I would have suffered a lot more. I was hoping I would win. But no, it was uh

2:01:14 It was a dead it was a very primal moment. That's all I could say about it. Like I was The moose was so thoughtful and the And the Wolverine was just one of those things where you're like, what just happened? Like that was crazy. I can't believe that just happened.

2:01:27 Anyway, it solved this problem that had been harrowing me for weeks by that point and was pretty liberal. So I had to make some earrings out of those claws and gift them to my wife. They're pretty nice. To bring in something that was n I don't think people would pick up on. Watching. Season six. There's a point where

2:01:50 As I think you put it to me when we were out in the woods. You were like In effect, up to that point. You've been Making plans. Yeah. Executing the plan.

2:02:01 Sort of living on offense, if that makes sense. But You kill Wolverine. And so there's this kind of mystery in the show people might not immediately pick up on, which is Not the only Wolverine around. Right. All right.

2:02:17 We were allowed to kill one Wolverine. I only had about a day of relief before I heard another Wolverine. I was like But this time I was in defense and it just so happened to line up with the time of year Where I had this very tangible mental shift that went from me being in that You know, when you're in fight or flight, I was in fight, I was in like a proactive mode, like you say, making plans, making things happen. Well

2:02:51 Now the ice was freezing on the lake and I couldn't go out and fish and so Couldn't fish. At least in the normal way. Yeah, in the normal way. I couldn't even go a walk on the ice to Ice fish yet. Right.

2:03:02 Couple week period there where it's just hard to fish. And then I uh Yeah. All the rabbits I needed, honestly. I had so much protein with the moose that there's no reason for me to go Kill or snare rabbits, so I didn't do that.

2:03:15 Also AKA toilet paper, right? They went great. What did you use for toilet paper? Uh the rabbit feet. It was quite luxurious. Your imaginations can carry the rest. And then this Wolverine came and I had to only play defense. And it was a very tangible shift that I went from being control of my own destiny to all of a sudden being on this what felt like a downhill trajectory. It's like I've collected everything I can collect. And now I just see what happens and

2:03:48 Try to defend against the Wolverine and All I can do is wait for the ice to You know, it it felt like a very different Frame of mind and And that was Uh you know, a more difficult period to get to I mean, h all these animals have optimized to steal food, right? Yeah, all they do and scavengers. And so especially something like Wolverine.

2:04:06 Like you can take the bark off of the pillars holding up your elevated platform. Yeah, I made a cool platform the Avengia showed me, you know, to built a bunch of them with the natives and uh Participant almost killed himself trying to copy that. Yeah. Yeah, you there's a certain technique to how to build them, which was useful to know. To do it safely. But

2:04:29 You're also calculating like not using unnecessary calories. And so I should've finished it. There's actually a the box in that raised platform and then you build a box on top and it's pretty everything proof. But of course, again that Wolverine kept surprising me. So I Built the platform.

2:04:47 Done a few tricks to try to keep it from getting up there. And then it got up there. By then it was like shoot, I should have built the thing, but you know, anyway. So Yep, learning on the fly and Trying to react accordingly.

2:04:59 Most people in modern life. They have their I'm making this up, right? Random meal, but they're like Salmon or chicken breast, some veggies, maybe some Pasta or

2:05:13 Sweet potato, who knows? But You mentioned the fat being stolen. Oh yeah. Uh and people can look up something called Rabbit Starvation too, but How important is that?

2:05:25 Yeah, you learn that really. Fast also. And that was the first time Just solely living off the land that I had where I didn't have any noodle back up or any anything like that. And so For an extended period of time. So I uh I was curious how long you could live off a rabbit. I was curious how you know, all this kinda stuff, and what I learned quite quickly was

2:05:43 Your body needs fat right away. And every day you're burning Your fat reserves or fat you're bringing in. The protein. It's actually more attainable out there. There's a lot of little animals and a lot of things. Even mushrooms have protein in them, but uh Fat is the bottleneck of survival for sure.

2:06:01 And so that's why we love it, I guess. But it was uh It just proved in it was so interesting to observe the animals as how Honed everybody was in on just the fat. The Wolverine, the Crows, the Jays, everything would just try to get the fattest part of your fish or your meat. Eyeballs. Skin.

2:06:21 And they would leave the Chunks of meat, like a big fish they'd strip to strip the skin off, eat kind of the fatty belly area. The eyes of the thing. So you can learn plentiful enough. They they eat the brand just leave leave leave all the meat. Yeah, that's pretty interesting. So Yeah. That's the fuel of the forest out there.

2:06:45 All right, so let's talk about Some new projects. Well, first of all. Not really first to moment, but Lest I forget. Where can people get one of these incredible axes? Yeah. I have one. People do not you know just run around your living room swinging this like a toy. It's not a toy, but it's a tool. But it's a it's a uniquely designed

2:07:06 Mm-hmm. I don't wanna say all in one, but multi purpose tool. Yeah, I think if like people take the time to learn it. And learn its nuances. You'll love it, but there's a learning curve to it because it is like a kind of a finely Tuned machine. But the uh JordanJonas.com. I have a website. Jordan Jonas and JordanJonus dot com there's you know, you can slash axe. You can get that there's two versions. There's a

2:07:32 This is a little bit smaller version, it's easier to Carry when you're backpacking and stuff. And then I have like the full or bigger s version that if you're On the farm or car camping, things like that has a little more heft and

2:07:45 Yeah. All right. And then If people and you and I have to book some time before this goes live so that I don't screw myself here. But if people want to experience what it's like

2:07:58 to go into the wilderness with you, which I highly recommend. If you can do it, guys, you will learn a T. It is You will not be able to absorb everything. Like there's there's gonna be a lot that you pick up. Uh, and are able to practice, which was so fun. Like Not just

2:08:17 Some of the finer details of fundamental survival. Skills, but learning how to use a relatively simple tool like a tenkara rod. Right. But just learning how to utilize a simple tool well. Mm-hmm. Right. Same with the axe. So how can people learn more about Yeah, same same deal. It's like, you know, the Instagram the the follow along. YouTube, Jordan Jonas. Instagram. Yeah, and Jordan Jonas.com is where I have

2:08:48 Access to sign up for courses. And sign up for, you know, there's hunts available there and stuff that people can guide you on. But yeah, they do book pretty quick, like this season's booked, but it's like I've I'm all about taking people out on private trips and stuff, you just have to kinda get in early or wait for my schedule to come out for next year and try to squeeze in. I love'em, man. It's uh been such a

2:09:11 Cool way to share. What I love. I talked about it earlier with the purpose. It's kind of a I have this stage of my life, the purpose is defined and trying to share the lessons that I've gained with others and I really enjoy it. Find it meaningful and I know people get a lot out of it. So I would love to see some folks out there.

2:09:30 So speaking of purpose, The book. No yeah, yeah. What are you up to? Why write a book? My wife and I talk about it fairly often that it's like we have a life that is

2:09:42 Very good, very full and on a lot of levels, I would say, like emotionally, spiritually on the family. It's a big blessing. When I was on alone too, it kinda struck me, I was like, This is a well how's this situation that's So difficult. Or I mean even life changing for people.

2:10:00 It just kinda felt like another trip to Russia. Like it felt very normal for me. It's like I wonder what prepared me in life to make uh this kind of unusual situation seem normal. And just to provide The Counter to that. I mean people break on this show. Right. Yeah. In a lot of d in a lot of different ways. Mm-hmm.

2:10:21 Sometimes very dramatic fashion. And so uh it made me a little bit Introspective about What had prepared me for it? Well. And in do in thinking about those things, I was like, Man, they really are

2:10:32 Some patterns. Of my being that have Created, you know, and Tim, if you guys listen, know he's really good at naming things and putting place on it. But have created like a Reservoir of resilience.

2:10:46 That I can tap into and that is Well exercised. And I and I just thought it would be Really interesting to share with people through the story of my life and all these kind of fun stories, but also Some of the keys to living a life.

2:11:02 Well, really. But by building uh Resilience. That'll help that. And What is interesting is you want to build that resilience before you find yourself in the situation,'cause once you find yourself in the situation And so

2:11:16 The key is to come through. Hard times and trials. You know, anybody can get through it. But you want to get through it and be positive and be putting light into the world. So it's me trying to help like your grandparents. Like my grandparents, like my dad. It's me trying people Learn the lessons that I've learned that might help make their

2:11:37 Reservoir of resilience in a fill up so that uh They're you know, able to confront things as they come. So it's a funny. project. I got Harper Collins and I partnered up on it and it'll be

2:11:55 Update plan any idea. I started twenty twenty seven. So yeah. Yeah, it is exciting. First book, so it's a fun New project. Yeah I'm gonna For people who I really encourage people to watch season six and seven. There's a Reddit thread titled

2:12:12 Quote. Can we agree that Jordan from season six is the best contestant to ever play the game? And it just goes on and on and on and on. Yes. I mean it's Reddit. It's Reddit, of course. It's what it's plenty of disagreement. Hard ship. And

2:12:31 Earlier this morning we were chatting because I was I was in Tennessee. And Was with uh Very, very skilled.

2:12:42 Podcaster and kind human, Sean Ryan. Oh yeah. And found this folded up piece of paper in the shirt I was sitting in and it ended up being A copy of the Serenity Prayer. Mm-hmm. And I have long been a fan of the Serenity Prayer. In part because it has echoes of and reinforces a lot of my reading and stoicism.

2:13:06 What I didn't realize is that what I thought was the Serenity Prayer is actually just a small piece of it. Are you able to pull it up on your phone by chance? Yeah, I mean it's a great It's a great prayer. I'll read the full thing here. It says. God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, for the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

2:13:28 Then it goes on. Living one day at a time, enjoying one moment at a time, accepting hardships as the pathway to peace. Taking as he did, This sinful world as it is, not as I would have it. Trusting That he will make all things right if I surrender to his will.

2:13:43 That I may be reasonably happy in this life and supremely happy with him. In the next. Has a lot of interesting concepts. There's you know, the everyone uh not everyone, but most people are familiar with the start. The very beginning. The next one is like living one day at a time, enjoying one moment at a time. There was that lesson I got slapped with on alone whereas I'm worried about the future and where the Ended up not coming. And then

2:14:06 accepting hardship as the pathway to peace, as we were discussing this morning, you know, that's uh Quite a profound bit of wisdom in there. Yeah. Right. Maybe concepts. maxims from Buddhists Philosophy from stoicism. It is so

2:14:29 Neatly wrapped. Mm-hmm. Into the Serenity Stoicism. It's so beautifully put and it just kinda blew my mind. understanding of it. Yeah, yeah. Because I only knew, I think like most people, the very beginning.

2:14:46 And not the rest. Jordan, is there people can find you at JordanJonas.com J O N A S They can find you on Instagram and YouTube at HoboJ. Makes me laugh every time I say it. Is there anything else you'd like to say? Anything you'd like to add, ask of my audience? We've all been noticing lately that the political division is ramping up more and more.

2:15:10 I've been Thinking a lot about the idea that So many people I know and love over the years have vastly divergent political opinions, but when you filter each other through politics. You're really

2:15:23 likely to see people as avatars of an ideology rather than as fellow humans. And I see that right now with Seems like with immigration's the hot topic at the moment. Of course, I believe we should keep track of immigration and who comes in. And people who

2:15:40 Take advantage of the system shouldn't'cause there's a social contract. And a trust that has to be shared and maintained in a society. But at the same time I have a personal belief. Based on my faith that I should help those in need when I have the ability. So in my personal life

2:15:56 I've chosen to take on, for example, in my case, uh a couple who was were Russian asylum seekers didn't want to go to the Front in Ukraine. They fled. Uh, but I don't expect others to be forced via

2:16:09 The government. And taxation to Live out my morality. And I don't judge or think ill of those who don't because I know there is a genuine sacrifice there. So I don't use politics to vicariously fulfill

2:16:24 My moral obligations that I feel good about myself without having to make the personal sacrifices That A. personally lived out ethic in the world requires. If I have the government. They'll feel my morality. It costs me nothing, and I can even

2:16:42 find myself in the situation where I'm judging People who Might actually practically be doing More to bear the actual burden.

2:16:53 Right in the world. So I think if more people approach their morality But a personal level. actively but also taken responsibility for it in their lives. The reality has a way of tempering the extremes. And it cuts in every direction.

2:17:09 If someone on the right r has a really strong opinion about abortion, it's like The faster children adopt. support single moms. Someone on the left has a Really strong opinion about

2:17:21 Wanting an open border, well. Take in an immigrant family, support'em, you know, using your own means and Social connections Get to know the complexity that comes when you do all that, and you'll find your You'll actually understand.

2:17:36 People that don't because it is a sacrifice and you'll be Less judgmental and probably Less self righteous. So it's something I've been thinking about. A little bit lately. Working that out is my favorite part of

2:17:49 My spiritual path of Christianity. It's like it I don't have a law. Like I don't know what I'm supposed to do usually. I'm supposed to filter like the real world through this ideal of love. Your neighbor as yourself, love the Lord your God. And in doing so, I'm constantly like What does it mean to love your enemy? Like that's not realistic. Like what's it mean to give to everybody a vass? That's not realistic, but It makes me wrestle with this thing. And in that I actually have uh that it all comes to life. Whereas I could have chosen to throw it out at some point.

2:18:20 And throw all that wrestling out with it, but I would have lost a lot of what Provides. meaning and value in my life also and Yeah, so I don't know. Working that out. in your life is super valuable.

2:18:34 It strikes me, I mean this Framing of wrestling with God. Mm-hmm. And look, I know I'm getting over my skis here a bit, but it's the people who wrestle with X. Phew. foster a type of introspection that I think

2:18:51 Often leads to Decisions that are better aligned with their truest of true values. Right, right, right. Yeah, it gets a little dangerous when you know for sure. Yeah. Embrace that struggle, I guess. Yeah, I mean I don't know attribution, but it's like

2:19:09 Admire the seeker of the truth, beware the person who's found the truth. Yeah, right. I mean there are times when it's like to Have solid values or principles that you choose to live your life by But at the same time to Russell. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And ask questions, you know, under what circumstances would this Not be right and to cross examine. It's asking a lot of people, I recognize. Asking a lot of anyone. Right.

2:19:35 'Cause it's easy to just Have a formula to follow. Yeah. Like this. the highest path is to like work it out. Well I I admire How you

2:19:48 Have tried to work it out. I think it's a very thoughtful approach. It's not an easy approach. And I just love what you do in the world, man. I feel like you're

2:19:58 Reintroducing people. To a lot of Core. Evolved. sensitivities that make humans human.

2:20:09 And when you do that. the abstractions and the concepts that people are willing to go to blows over on social media just fall away as what they are, which is Typically some type of artificial line in the sand that people have Chosen. And been encouraged to

2:20:28 take on as some type of team identity. And that just Falls away. When you simplify things and put people in an environment Where they can see that. I think it's really beautiful.

2:20:40 And people don't have to live in Montana to do that. Right. There are ways. to seek it out. So I appreciate you taking time on the show, man. It's great to see you. Tim, it's been fun getting to know you and hanging out with you in the woods and really enjoyed it. Yeah, I'm excited, man. I can't wait to pack in my own axe now. Next time and and to m make absolutely sure I don't stick it into my foot. So be continued. Thanks, Jordan. Yeah. And for people listening, we'll link to all sorts of things in the show notes at Tim.blog slash podcast.

2:21:14 Just search Jordan. And uh there may be one other Jordan and you can certainly search Jonas. There's not gonna be another Jonas. He'll pop right up. Until next time, as always, just be a bit kinder than is necessary. To others, yes, but also to yourself. To quote Jack Cornfield, if your compassion does not include yourself, then your compassion is incomplete. Thanks for tuning in. Hey guys, this is Tim again, just one more thing before you take off, and that is Five Bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend?

2:21:53 Between one and a half and two million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter called Five Bullet Friday. Easy to sign up, easy to cancel. It is basically a half page that I send out every Friday to share the coolest things I've found or discovered or have started exploring over that week. It's kinda like my diary of cool things. It often includes articles I'm reading, books I'm reading, albums perhaps, gadgets, gizmas, all sorts of tech tricks and so on that get sent to me by my friends, including a lot of podcast guests, and these strange esoteric things end up in my field, and then I test them and then I share them with you. So if that sounds fun, again, it's very short, a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend, something to think about. If you'd like to try it out, just go to Tim.blog slash Friday. Type that into your browser, Tim.blog slash. Friday, drop in your email and you'll get the very next one. Thanks for listening.

2:22:50 Back in the day, this was 2004 maybe, I had someone approach me at a coffee shop and say, good day, mate, and introduce himself. Who was that? It turned out to be founder of AG1. Believe it or not, way back in the day, and people often ask me what has survived after 20 plus years of testing every supplement under the sun. Just about. What actually has stay in the rotation, in the toolbox. This episode sponsor AG1 is at the top of that very, very short list. I started using it close to 15 years ago when it was still called Athlet Greens. I put it in the four-hour body, didn't get paid to put it in there, and it's outlasted almost everything else that I've tried. One scoop covers your nutritional bases, right, fills the gaps. You want to eat good food, of course, but 75 plus ingredients including probiotics, B vitamins, and whole food nutrients act as, in my opinion, pretty cheap nutritional. insurance. I take it first thing every morning with cold water. And at this point, it's automatic like brushing my teeth. If you're looking for one simple daily habit that supports gut health and fills common nutrient gaps, this is where I'd start.

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2:25:06 timely exit planning, bill pay, wires, all the dozens of other parts of wealth management, just financial management that would otherwise pull me away from doing what I love most, making things. Mastering skills, spending time with the people I care about. And over many years, I was getting pulled away from that stuff at least a few days a week and I've completely eliminated that. So Experience the freedom of focus on what matters to you with the support of a top wealth management team. You can schedule a call today at cresitcapital.com slash Tim. That's spelled C-R-E-S-S-E-T. CrescentCapital.com slash Tim to see how Crescent can help streamline your financial plans and grow your wealth. That's Cresit Capital. Dom slash Tim And disclosure, I am a client of Crescent. There are no material conflicts other than this paid testimonial. And of course, all investing involves risk, including loss of principle. So do your due diligence.

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