Brené  Brown: We're In A Spiritual Crisis! The Hidden Epidemic No One Wants To Admit!

Transcript from https://podmenti.com/t/949d2754977e1f01

You are the single most requested guest.
And let me tell you
This has not been easy. Because we went to some hard places. But I don't think we'll ever talk about anything more important than this. Because it's not fear that gets in the way of us being brave with our lives and our work. It's the armor that we reach for to self-protect when we're afraid. And how that armor moves us away from love, connection, and our values.
And the hardest work is being aware of what is my armor when I'm afraid.
Is that automatic?
Oh no. It's a training.
So let's start with that then. Brene Brown is an icon whose world leading research in shame, vulnerability, and connection has inspired companies like Pixar, Google, and the US Special Forces to build stronger leaders and help the everyday person unlock their full potential.
Ready?
Is vulnerability important? It is if we want to be brave with our lives. But we were raised to believe that vulnerability is weakness. Like in my family, we were allowed anger, but sad was not an option. You needed to be tough. So when I get scared, when I feel anxious, disappointed, I'm just angry. And so when you're raised without vulnerability.
it'll put you in jeopardy. Like, you wanna know what vulnerability is? Joy. Joy is so vulnerable that people choose to live disappointed rather than to get excited about something and risk getting sucker punched by disappointment.
Like there is no courage without vulnerability. Courage is the willingness to show up and be all in when you cannot predict the outcome.
Wow, I've never thought about that before. But you can develop skills. Make it these four steps. Courage. Yes. We've taken a hundred and sixty five thousand people through this work. That included how to build trust. And I've heard about your marble jar theory. Could you explain to me what your marble jar look at how excited you are.
I do! So this is how we teach trust to the most senior leaders in Fortune 100 companies.
It's awesome.
Just give me thirty seconds of your time.
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Thank you.

For name
In order to um understand all the work that you have done and the perspective that you have on the world and also who you are as a anomaly in many respects,
I think it's probably important that I understand your earlier's context.
Where you've come from? What shaped you? I'm stuck on a uh
Am I a
Am I an anomaly?
Of course you're an anomaly.
Of course you're an anomaly.
That that should be of no surprise to you.
I mean if you look at your outcomes, your outcomes are anomalous.
So one would assume that there's some form
For something that c made you an anomaly.
I would say that
I'm a fifth generation Texan.
I
Came from a fair amount of
Dysfunction.
Parents doing the best they could.
With what they knew?
both coming from really, really, really tough upbringings.
That included
Yeah.
Poverty.
Addiction.
And so probably a lot of the stereotypes you would think about fifth generation Tex and Tough.
Don't cry.
We were allowed a very small continuum of emotions were approval, you know, approved, which were pissed off
Or okay.
Like anger was okay, but no you know, couldn't be sad really. Or vulnerability was not a thing.
Vulnerability was weakness and scary and put you in jeopardy. I felt like a real outsider at home and in school.
But I was really good at reading people, reading situations.
I think my I I think a therapist somewhere along the way said yes, that's hypervigilance.
You're hyper vigilant.
You know, I can see everything around me, I know everything's going on. I can connect things very quickly that other people don't see.
And there was laughter.
And there was love.
But there was a
ton of unpredictability.
I was gonna say, isn't that typically what creates hypervigilance is some kind of
Need to be.
That aware.
When you're young.
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean I think yes.
Being fun loving
was very valued in my family and being tough.
These were the values. These are these are on the parental scorecard.
This is what got you an A. If you're fun
Easy.
You can you know shoot straight, spit far, fish well.
Like really.
Drive fast.
And so those things were very valued.
Athleticism was very valued.
Um
But those
Fun things could turn really hard very quickly.
There was a big pause there.
Four second pause as you can.
It's fun until you got a parent eje ejected from a game.
For being
So hard.
And that was your father? Yeah.
Oh he's really hard then, if he was ejected from a game.
Yeah, yeah.
There's a photo I saw of you and your siblings.
Where you're clutching your siblings.
And I think you referred to it as
You could see there was a certain fear in your eyes.
You're on a couch, something like that. Like a yellow velour couch like from the seventies? Yes. Yeah.
I think about that picture, I like that picture, but there's definitely I definitely had a protector role as the oldest. I mean codename Sister Superior. It was jokingly, but it wasn't joking. Like if things got hard between my parents and they would get in volatile fights
I would go get all my siblings, put them in my room.
I'd go downstairs and handle it. You know, like I was definitely the protector.
physically volatile fights.
Um on occasion, but more emotionally volatile.
Screaming and shouting. Yeah, yeah.
Same with my parents. Yeah, just loud. There's the background in my whole house for my whole childhood was just screaming.
There was a yeah, we had a lot of screaming and there's a certain like if you grew up with screaming hearing screaming through a wall
Mm.
You know that sound. Mm-hmm.
Do you hear that sound? Yeah. And so
Yeah, I'm sorry, because I don't like to hear that about
your childhood. And I don't like to know that about my childhood, but there was a lot of screaming. And so I think
Hypervigilant.
Protective.
Responsible.
with a dose of
Be very fucking careful.
Because
I will protect my siblings.
And and how did that change your model of love as a young person? It must have been'cause I mean I f obviously feel the same way about about my situation and um
I think the lesson I learned was that love was like a prison'cause m it was my mum doing the shouting.
And my dad was the prisoner.
And he wouldn't respond.
So this you've got a woman shouting at him for six, seven hours a day and him sat there like he's a
Like
an inanimate object.
Looking at the screen.
And I remember thinking, Oh, okay, so if I get in a relationship when I'm older then
I'm gonna be a prisoner to a woman.
Okay.
Doesn't sound doesn't sound a beeling.
And if you move to a different room you should follow him. So

I avoided relationships like the fucking plague.
I did well until about twenty seven.
And then what?
And then someone got over the wall in
Corrected to some of the evidence.
They got over the wall.
Yeah, see that over the wall. Damn it. That's your partner, not me. No, not yeah, not you. Although you're doing a hell of a job right now. Um You're like, you've crossed the piranha filled moat that I like. Um but the drawbridge is like
I'm s I'm just see I'm gonna see my Steve my Steve definitely
Definitely got over the wall.
Um, but it was like game r game recognized as game, he had a wall.
Oh okay. Yeah, and so we had long conversations about our walls and and slowly through those conversations
We just
those walls crumbled with each other and we've been together now for thirty eight years.
Yeah. Um the hardest thing I've ever done in my life.
Bar None, dude.
Nothing has been harder.
Yeah.
Well, when we got married.
six months after we got married. This is you know, you you said for you love was gonna be pr being a prisoner.
And having to just shut down.
To survive.
Runaway.
Don't confront it in a conversation start. No, no.
Um, for me, six months after we were married, I went to go see a therapist and I said, I cannot do this.
I've got to get out of this marriage. And we had dated off and on for seven years before we got married. And I said, I gotta get out.
And she said, Y I could the
This is hard. I
I can see how this is not working. And I was like
had a twinge of defensiveness about Steve and I said, What do you mean?
And she said
He likes you so much more,
Then you like you. It must be terrible.
It's like fuck you, man, you're fired.

That's what I do. So if you i I'm gonna give you one of my tells.
If I do a really high pitched what?
That means
Um that means I'm looking for my purse and I'm gonna I know where the door is. Um
I I I I I just kept thinking, What what do you mean? He said, It's got it's gotta be very comf uncomfortable to be with someone who sees you and really knows you and loves you so much.
When you have not found a way to s you.
And love you so much.
It's gotta be disconcerting.
What an asshole, man.
Like wow. And it was true.
I had to get to this point where I was like I
Maybe I should like me.
As much as he likes me, and then make a better decision about whether this is gonna work or not.
When you grow up,
And pissed off or shut down.
Are your two emotional opportunities?
Like they're you know, and Atlas of the Heart.
I write about
eighty seven emotions that I think are important to understand because

Are the limits of our world.
When you have
Two buckets.
then everything must go in those, and in fact in our research
over the last fifteen years we found the average person
Can
accurately identify and name three emotions. Happy
Sad,
Pissed off.
Mm-hmm.
And so
In my family
Sad was not
An option.
That was weakness.
So you could be
Pissed or okay?
So
When I get
Scared.
When I feel grief.
When I'm anxious, when I feel disappointment, when I feel anguish.
I'm just angry.
There's two sort of outstanding question marks in my head, and they might be the same.
answer. But it's you said earlier on that you didn't fit in at school or at home.
And I didn't understand why you didn't fit in at school a or at home. And then the other thing that's still a question mark in my head is the therapist said to you that you well asserted that you didn't like yourself as much as he liked you. And I wasn't clear on what made you not like yourself.
I want it out.
of where I was raised.
I wanted to leave everything I knew.
And so I always felt like an outsider.
I didn't
I didn't want to do I mean I wasn't
Popular
I wasn't dating a quarterback.
That was a dream.
that my my parents and their parents and their parents
You know, you were you were a bear cadet and you dated a quarterback.


So at
I felt
Not cute, not popular.
Not understood.
And then at home
It wasn't easy going.
I was an I was anxious.
And and
Always ready.
And the point about self esteem.
Which the therapist sort of highlighted about not n liking oneself as much as Steve likes you.
Where did that come from? Or is that related in some way? Oh, because my parents parented with a very big heaping dose of shame.
Oh okay.
So if you accomplish something or you don't accomplish something, you're made to feel bad about it. Yeah.
And a ton of it was about
Appearance
Being fun. Appearance. Yeah.
Yeah, like, you know.
Big blonde hair with hot rollers, the higher the hair, the closer to God.
Tough and strong
and throw on a baseball cap and get somewhere really quick.
Low maintenance.
And you need to be a beauty pageant queen.
Do you remember them ever.
being critical of your appearance in a way that has stayed with you.
I mean I guess.
I mean I think not just them. I mean like
I think
Having young girls and young women.
Keeping them
from developing threats to their self esteem.
It's not just a parental thing. It's like it's like asking them not to breathe because the air's poison. Like it's like every message from everywhere.
You know, the fashion magazines you'd read them and you think

I don't.
I don't look like this.
How am I gonna look like this?
You know, and you'd lather yourself up with baby oil and you put lemon juice in your hair, you put tinfoil under your chin, get as much sun cancer as you could'cause we didn't know, you know, like you you'd we all wore jeans that you had to put on with pliers with for the zipper because they were so tight. Appearance mattered.
This is Texas baby.
You go off to university eventually. And not a straight line, but eventually you get into university. Not a straight line. That's the sweetest thing you've said to me. Um
I graduated from college when I was twenty nine.
What well.
So you become a a research professor.
In two thousand and one.
And you've uh been a research professor and many more things, um, ever since then. You get your PhD in social work at the University of Houston, Texas.
Between six and two thousand and two.
And really for the last couple of decades you've focused on
Research.
Understanding people obviously there's so many more strings to your bow in terms of like media and podcasting and authorship.
But over those since two thousand and one, we're in two thousand twenty five now, just over two decades.
My first question is um
How is your perspective on
How has the world changed in those last two decades, in your view?
Unions would say before any
Great progression.
There is a regression.
And I think
That
When you look at various administ I know you have a very global audience. When you look at administrations
Political administrations across the world.
And you look at
How power is being used right now.
It will tell you a lot about what they're afraid of.
Mm.
But what is that face? We're gonna have to pause it. I was thinking about a conversation I had recently with my my best friends. It must have been this weekend. Yeah, it was this weekend because it was my friend's birthday in Manchester, the UK, so we flew in. Um and
We had a conversation about how the leading political narrative at the moment this might be adjacent to what you were saying, but it's the way I interpreted it. The leading political narrative at the moment that seems to be getting people elected is if you say
Those people with that skin colour.
are the reason for the pain and anguish in your life. It's actually the people below you
Pero
coming over the border or crossing the the English Channel on dinghy that are
ruining your life and
it seems to be like a really effective narrative to to earn power, both in the US and the UK. Like the central narrative that is swaying elections, it seems, at the moment in the UK and the US is
those brown people on that boat or cr coming over the border are the reason for the pain in your life?
And it seems to work and
That seems to be the thing getting power. So that's kinda what ran through my head when I had this idea of like power and what you're scared of. I actually s think I inverted it to
If I can tell you what to be scared of or find the thing you might be scared of or whatever, then I get power.
But maybe it goes the other way too.
I don't think we'll ever talk about anything more important than this, to be honest with you. That's why I thought your response
was so interesting'cause you you you may if I was gonna like do the text box above your face
It would have said well, holy shit.
That's interesting.
Because
We when you use power, especially power over, because there's multiple kinds of power. There's power with and to
And power within.
So people that use power within to and power within.
work from a belief system that's completely different.
We believe that power is infinite.
And can grow when shared.
people who use power over
Work from a belief system that power is fine.
Like pizza, and if I give you any I have a deficit.
So it's gotta be hoarded and protected and not shared.
Yeah.
Power over
is really important to understand because when people are using power over, they're definitely letting you know what they're afraid of because that's what they're focused on.
Yeah.
And they're tapping into, and I think this is absolutely true.
If you
Give people
Someone to dislike.
And blame for their pain.
And they look different than the people who
Or voting.
You will win a hundred times out of a hundred.
If you say I see your pain.
I can tell you exactly the source of it.
And I can fix this for you. And the source of it.
It's gonna be easy to see.
You're not gonna see yourself in them.
Mm.

It is a full circle, people in power.
use power to address issues that they're afraid of.
They gain power by leveraging fear.
And giving people an enemy.
That's how this works.
It works like this. I mean, I spend ninety five percent of my time in organizations.
Working with C suite leaders and senior leaders. This this is how it works in organizations, how it works in political
you know, how it works in faith communities, this is how power works in general. So power over is a very specific kind of power.
And it's especially dangerous because in order to maintain it
You have to engage in periodic bouts of cruelty.
towards vulnerable populations.
You have to remind people what you're capable of.
So there's four types of power you you s you speak about in um
Damn, you have that in your notes? In strong ground, yes.
Why are you surprised?
I don't know.

There's four types of power in leadership you speak about. There's the power over which is controlling or exploiting, and there's power with finding common ground and building collective strength. Power to
which is giving others and recognizing their potential and power within, which is honoring differences.
And self
Worth.
So as a leader
Of a business. If I were to be successful.
Are you telling me that I need to stay away from power over and
Adopt another power.
Within this list of four.
Yeah, I think
What we've seen
Be very successful over time is power with, power to, and power within.
So
Collaborative power.
Co creation power?
Self awareness.
Metacognition, knowing yourself, knowing how you think and learn. So power with and power to. Power over is
excruciatingly difficult to maintain.
We're not neurobiologically hardwired.
To stay in fear for very long.
So
If I work for y uh if I work for you
And you're using power over.
To lead me.
You're threatening me with my job, you're threatening me with consequences, you're threatening me with demotion.
one of two things is gonna happen for me neuro biologically.
I am either going to
Just become numb to it?
It's not it's not gonna be able you're not gonna maintain I can't maintain that constant level of fear. It's just too demanding.
Just physic demanding.
Or I might get hyper
normalized. Am I just like, this is this is what I work in. This is like crazy. This is it. You know? But every now and then you're gonna have to do something
That demonstrates to me.
How
chaotic and cool you can actually be.
Like you're gonna have to engage in periodic acts of cruelty to remind me that the fear is real and to put me back in it.
And so one of the things you're seeing right now, I mean, like we in in the US
the deportation and immigration issues.
This is not a president that has
you know, tightened his belt on immigration.
more than other previous presidents.
But we've never seen
Masked people.
Grabbing people off the street.
While children hold on to their legs screaming, Mom, Mom, Mom We've we we've never seen that before, right? But we've had other presidents
probably exceed.
The deportation numbers that we're seeing.
But we've never seen that level of cruelty and display.
That is a
Real
display of cruelty as a reminder.
of who who who holds power and who does not.
It also makes me think of relationships when you're talking about

are controlled with power over a lot of people talk about like sort of narcissistic relationships or abusive relationships where
they don't feel like they can leave or you know, they don't leave and they end up becoming
acclimatized to the treatment.
I'm a big systems theory th I'm a systems theory person. I think in systems theory, I was trained in systems theory. I think if you don't understand systems systems theory, at least if you're leading an organization right now, you're gonna fall behind because
the complexity inside and outside of organizations is such that we need a framework to understand how all of these
individual systems are bumping up against each other. Like
You f you probably bump up against
A hundred systems a day, right? Yeah.
And so
what I would imagine the story I would make up about your success.
'Cause this is true of any systems theory, is in order for systems to thrive and grow
They have to keep permeable boundaries.
meaning they have to allow feedback to flow in and out from other systems.
Mm-hmm.
To be aware.
So I'm just gonna give you a very good example. I'm very excited about the female
The experts you had on.
around menopause
Women's life. I mean, I'm so excited about that.
Like just to be honest with you, like Mary Claire is my doctor. Oh really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Doctor Haver. So
Um
What is interesting is the systems that just that podcast bumps up against.
You know, and the systems that would be sending feedback that hey, this is not for me, I'm not clicking on this.
I I I've shared that first one with
A hundred people. You know, because
There's a reality to our lives that is uncomfortable for people.
But those are your partners and your moms and your you know
And your bosses and it's real.
I can guarantee if this was happening with the dudes.
Yeah.
It'd be a good bajillion dollar
Whatever over a trillion, gajillion. I don't know.
Um, but just thinking about that one podcast and the systems that you're touching.
Health.
women's issues.
Um
family systems are affected. Like that podcast hits
twenty systems that I can think of in my head right now.
the divorce rates of people of women in their fifties and sixties.
I mean, right? Yes or no? Yeah, a hundred percent, yeah. Right. So
A healthy system has permeable boundaries, meaning feedback is flowing in and out all the time.
What happens when the world gets complex.
is we start not wanting the feedback.
The complexity is too big. So we start shutting down those permeable boundaries. Well, what happens to a system?
Where the boundaries are no longer permeable.
It atrophies.
And in the ph and the process of atrophying, the system becomes self referencing. Are we good?
We great.
Are we right?
We're right.
Are we on target?
We're on target.
Because
the boundaries of the system is n are no longer craving outside feedback even when it's tough. And in businesses today
The geopolitical realities.
the market changes
AI
I mean
It's
Crazy.
Mm. And so
Uh
Predisposition.
to shut down uncertainty and complexity.
is the biggest threat to the systems in which we work and live.
The self protect.
Close the wall.
Put up the drawbridge.
Fill the moat with piranhas.
We just don't have that luxury. We've got to keep the the boundaries permeable.
We've gotta keep learning, guessing, unlearning, relearning.
One of the added complexities is the
Rise in algorithms and and actually when I think about
algorithms that are powered by AI, they're going to be even better at knowing what you want to see, so that you spend time, so that you can see more adverts, which means
probably the best thing to show me is either something really fearful or just to confirm what I already believe. An algorithm that was doing the opposite probably wouldn't be an enjoyable experience for the average human brain. It would cause too much dissonance, too much discomfort. But great for democracy. Great, yeah, fantastic.
But terrible for for
running a business and selling ads.
So any company that t takes that approach will go bankrupt. This is why TikTok I think have been so successful is the algorithm is I don't use TikTok. So I have a TikTok account, I've I don't have the app on my phone.
But um
From what I hear is
It's so unbelievably addictive. People describe it to me and they're like, Oh my God, it's so addictive. But the shit is the devil. Yeah.
Yeah.
But it's
people are driven by incentives, right? And you your s your sh your share price is gonna tumble and you're gonna be fired.
You're gonna lose your s your status and your power if you don't do that.
I'm thinking that was that obviously not. No, I I no, I agree.
What do you think the solution is?
And what responsibility do
Mm
bros who run these tech platforms have
It's complicated.
Well, I agree. I'm not looking for an easy answer. Go ahead. Hit me. Well and I just think it's complicated because
What w what an objective party would say who's just looking at the incentives of these groups of people is if they don't do it
So.
So even with AI now, you know what I mean? I'm like I've sat with all these experts and I keep heading up against this wall, which is
Okay, if we just banned people in the United States from pursuing this superintelligent strategy
then Russia and China get there first, then the United States unfortunately are gonna end up being
Chinese French Bulldog.
And actually I can't refute that. I go, No, you're right,'cause we you'd have to literally lease the technology off them. It will be so powerful and s give such an economic advantage that you will have to lease it off China. So I go Okay, I guess
Sam Waltman does need to crack on.
Or else.
So it's complicated.
This is where I end up every time.
I mean look what h happened with TikTok. China made an algorithm.
It was unbelievably addictive. The United States have just had to buy it off them.
Because they were scared that the data was gonna be used against the United States. The prime example, like China, like fuck it, we don't care. Yeah.
And they made an unbelievable algorithm called TikTok, which just captivated you know, the youth are all just I can lose in their brains. So
I don't know, I don't know. It's tough. It's rough.
Spiritual crisis.
Yeah, I mean you just laid it out.
You just laid it out.
We're emotionally disregulated.
We're distrustful of each other.
We don't trust ourselves very much, and we're disconnected.
I can't give up on people though. I'm not built that way.
Like
believe that we are more good
Than greedy?
You know, I I was in conversation with Trevor Noah at an event.
And I mentioned this term that I I was really excited about.
And he challenged me on it.
And I said, I think what we need is cognitive sovereignty.
We to wrestle control.

And decide what we consume, what we read, how we think, think critically.
We need
to think about our attention and our focus.
As
commodities that people are after because they're after them, right? Mm-hmm.
He had an interesting point though. He always has interesting points, don't you think? It's so tough to t to talk to Trevor because he's so he's always got an interesting point. He's always got an interesting point. Damn it. Um and he's funny.
But he said, No, we need less cognitive sovereignty, Berne. And I'm like, What do you mean? He goes, Everything's about the for you page. Everything's for you. We need communal sovereignty. He's like, you know, the whole problem is that your for you page is completely sovereign. You intellectually and spiritually I'm I'm paraphrasing what he said, I'm sure it was
Like
funnier and better looking, but
Um.
But
Hm.
He and then I was trying to think about like I guess maybe that's not the right term. But let me let me tell you what scares me the most.
I'm in I'm in some weird rooms because of the nature of my job. I'm in rooms where the people who run these platforms
And own and you know, that own the CEOs of these business and the founders are in these rooms. And I hear them talking.
And I hear things that are so
Misaligned
that it panics me. So I hear someone say
Hm.
you know, tech billionaire.
What what should my kids study? I'm worried for my kids. Well, they should study coding, physics, you know? And then five minutes later, as if that answer didn't happen, someone will say
To what do you attribute your success? I mean deeply when you think about it. And the same person will say
My deep reading of philosophy and the stoics.
And so then I'm thinking to myself, Well, which is it, dude?
And then I then I start to extrapolate from there and wonder
If there is a thinking class that's emerging
Where they're like, We're gonna read philosophy.
And we're gonna read
the liberal arts and we're gonna study history.
And the rest of you
Just keep scrolling.
Don't worry about the big words.
We'll we'll handle all the big words for you.
Like it's like when they asked Steve Jobs.
Boy, your kids must love the iPad.
Stu Job said.
My kids don't have an iPad.
And then
His biographer who spent time with his family said he wasn't kidding.
There's no technology.
At dinner, they're talking about art.
and history.
Right.
the hardest chapter I ever written in my life of any book was the chapter on grounded confidence and strong ground.
What is the set of skill sets and mindsets that I think we're going to need to future ready and future proof ourselves to be leaders moving forward?
And I think what was hard about it was the complexity of it was probably a combination of thirty different mindsets and skill sets.
And when I was done,
You know, for commercial reasons.
Someone on my team immediately said, Jeez, this is like a g if you can train people in these things, this is really
This is like really important.
And the first thing that I thought was fuck that, my kids.
Train uh train schmein. It's important. Like we'll we'll we'll we'll develop some instrumentation and measure it. We'll train folks in it. I think it's trainable, it's teachable, it's measurable.
But really.
I want this for my kids.
I want my kids to know systems thinking. I want my kids to know anticipatory thinking.
Situational awareness, temporal awareness.
I want my kids
to have this
Complex set of skills.
Do I want them to have jobs one day where all they're worried about is shareholder value? Really no.
I want them to own their mind.
own their intellect.
Own their attention and own their focus.
I want them to read.
I want them to understand.
History.
I want them to develop pattern recognition skills.
'Cause these are the skills of the future. I want them to be able to hold the tension.
of nuance and paradox.
When everything in their brain is saying
Pick one, pick one, reconcile, I'm uncomfortable. Pick one, reconcile, I'm uncomfortable. That's neurobiology.
In those tw in those twenty years of your twenty plus years of your career.
What have you been exposed to from a thirty thousand foot perspective? Like what
What are the the wide range of reference points that you draw upon
Two
Be the person that you are.
Today.
And you know,'cause you've had you it feels like you've got a very wide range of references. Clearly, you know, you're someone that cares a lot about history, that that comes through in your answers. But I'm wondering in your career, like what are what are the experiences that you've had?
Have you been working
Directly with patients, is it
Ac Academic reference points you're drawing upon?
Yeah, um
No one's ever asked me this, which I've been grateful
that no one's asked me. Um, so what a pain in the ass. But
Um
Because no one's gonna like the answer.
I'm excited about the answer now.
Everything.
Like
Every single thing.
Um, yes, I you know, I love history.
Yes.
I
Read
academic papers all the time. Yes, I wake up in the morning and I read because of the nature of my work, I read the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times, Bloomberg, the Financial Times, like I yeah, I mean I I I read an a a lot.
But
There's a chapter in the book that was one of my favorite to write.
on the transitions home from work.
Mm-hmm.
And how how how tough they are.
And how if you're like me, you've had a very frustrated partner look at you more than once in your life and say, Hey
I know it was stressful.
I don't work for you.
Change gears.
Yeah.
Have you ever had that?
No comment? Yeah.
I use a metaphor.
in that book.
In this chapter.
Of a lock.
And how did that come to me?
Because I was reading the book series The Rivers of London.
And in that book series.
There are two gods of the Thames.
And the Teddington Lock?
Is where
outside of London and Teddington is where custody changes for them.
So I went to the Teddington Lock'cause I was interested. I met the lockmaster
That runs the lock.
She gave me a three hour lesson that day we let narrow boats through.
The Thames.

I learn how lock works and that's the metaphor that I use to talk about the research on what do we do when we spend all day locking in.
Hyper focused, compartmentalizing, getting shit done.
And then instead of going home to our partner, when we get home we spend thirty minutes in the garage on TikTok'cause we can't bear to go in.
So why do we do that?
Because we need a lock through period. We need
Time to go into a chamber metaphorically.
Change levels.
Let go of where we were.

Cognitive we would call it cognitive and domain shifting.
And we need time. So I looked at the lock.
master at uh Teddington and said.
This shit is taking a long time. Can we get this chamber filled up a little bit quicker? And she said, Locking through takes what locking through takes if you rush it.
You risk capsizing.
We get home and then we walk in the back door and it's like I can't find my shin guards. I think I left'em on the pitch. Where are my goggles, mom? Oh my God, you didn't sign the permission slip. I have to sneak into the zoo you know, and you're like
Take me back to work where I'm the boss of everything.
Yeah.
So where do I learn those things? Well, cognitive and domain shifting come out of psychology.
Jimma, the lockmaster at Teddington.
There's wisdom everywhere.
I put it together through stories and metaphors. I mean
Another thing in the book.
I mean I'm standing on the sideline.
At DKR.
the University of Texas Longhorn Football Stadium. Um and I'm standing with Emmanuel Ocho.
G annual.
No. Yeah, he's great. He he played for the Longhorns, he played for the NFL, now he's a writer. So I'm standing there and we're watching the game and I look at him and I go
How would you define pocket presence?
And pocket presence is an American football term.
So do you know American football.
Okay.
So
I'm a quarterback, I'm gonna get the ball, and I have to throw the ball or run the ball or hand off the ball to get the ball down the pitch, down the field, right? Mm-hmm.
And when when the ball is snapped and the ball is put into motion
There's about twelve to fourteen hundred pounds of really angry people.
trying to drive me into the ground.
Yeah.
The people that are protecting me from those defensive guys are called my offensive line.
And the way they do it is they form a pocket around the quarterback.
And a quarterback
uses that time to decide where am I gonna throw the ball, am I gonna run the ball. And pocket presence
is the ability of a quarterback to use the
On average two point eight to three seconds.
He has.

understand where the defenders are and make a decision.
And so when I asked Emmanuel Ocho, how would you define pocket presence? He said
And I want you to think about this in terms of your business.
The ability to read the field.
Without seeing all of it.
And trusting your team well enough.
To make a move.
Even though you can't see everything.
Mm.
What are the skill sets you need right there? One, temporal awareness.
you gotta know how much time you have to get rid of that ball and get it down the field.
They they say Tom Brady, who played for the Patriots. Is any of this ringing the bell? Yeah.
They said his pocket presence was so good he could tell.

by the vibrations through his sh his cleats on the field.
So
Temporal awareness.
situational awareness, what's going on.
Anticipatory awareness.
Think about a great
football player.
Right? Think about Masala.
You don't kick the ball to where the striker is.
you kick the ball to where the striker's gonna be. So anticipatory and situational awareness.
Right.
Pattern recognition.
Have I been in this situation before? Do I know how to, you know?
Where's the goalie in the cage? Where are they standing right now? Like and so
I'll take my inspiration from sports all the time, which is why there's so many sports metaphors.
Right.
I think there's not a better sports a better metaphor to describe work right now than
Premier League football.
One of the things that um is is
throughout your work is this idea of connection.
I did a mushroom.
I did magic mushrooms with my girlfriend a couple of years ago. First time I've ever done it. And um
the message that came through for me was it was about connection. And that word has had a fond place in my heart ever since as being really, really important. And we live in a society that's more lonely than ever before, more disconnected in many ways, as you described when you're referencing the spiritual crisis that we're living in.
This word connection, what does that mean? Does it mean on an individual basis? Does it mean me having friends and relationships? Is that connection?
Is that the type of connection I should be looking for?
Or does it need do I need to like do you think people need to ladder up further?
Two.
Their city, their town, their world.
To the community.

God.
What what does connection mean in this context? Yes.
I think the answer to that question is yes. We're neuro neurobiologically hardwired to be in connection with other people.
And in the absence of connection.
There's always suffering.
always suffering in the absence of connection. So I think
I mean just how we're built.
mirror neurons, you know, our ability to sync up neurobiologically when we feel connected and are hearing each other. So to me connection is the ability to be in a relationship where we can both give and receive
Where we feel seen, heard, believed, valued.
that is that human connection is really important on a micro level, one on one with other human beings.
Yeah.
I think a sense of belonging and a sense of place.
And I don't know that that necessarily needs to be a location.
But
A sense of being a part of something bigger than you?
I think is also important. So love and belonging.
Connection.
Irreducible needs.
I I think spirituality I define spirituality is being inextricably connected to other people by something bigger than us. Maybe that's love, maybe that's God.
Maybe that's fishing. Like I I you know, it's different for other people. For me, I'm
Faith is one of my values and I'm a a pretty serious God person.
Um I'm a pretty deep person of faith.
I guess I would ask somebody
What is that thing?
That transcends
Difference.
Political difference, ideological difference.
Race, gender, you know, belief systems.
Class, what is it?
that brings you to a common humanity place.
Like for me, it's God. That's a it's a big challenge.
'cause like I I try to work from an ethos where I try to find God in the face of everybody that I meet.
even if I wanna punch you in the throat, I try to like
Like like that's my thing.
In some way I'm connected to you.
Mm whether I like it or not, and whether I like you or not.
And when you talk about belonging, it's interesting in your book Braving the Wilderness, which I think uh the question is kinda summed up by the subtitle, yeah.
The quest for true belonging and the courage to stand alone, this appears to be a dichotomy or a contradiction.
Mm-hmm.
To belong but also to stand alone. Mm-hmm.
Why are both of these important? Why is it important to blong, what does that mean? And and why is it also important to

'Cause I don't think you can truly belong.
to anything or any art or any group if you don't belong to yourself first.
True.
Requires us
To be who we are.
not to change who we are. That's fitting in. Fitting in is the greatest threat to belonging.
Mm.
Which takes us both back to our childhoods, right? Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Fit in, fit in, fit in, fit in.
The problem is that that chameleon
Kind of skill set?
means
That in order
to fit in the first person you betray is yourself.
We've gotta be able to stand alone.
And that's what's happening right now in the world. I mean if I if I look back at Braving the Wilderness
That was maybe
the only prophetic book that I think I've ever written. Like that like that I don't think I'm prophet like, but man, did I call what was happening in terms of the big sort into ideological bunkers where we're gonna get to a place where
I don't even know you.
But I'm gonna call you friend.
Because we hate the same people.
And you over there,
I actually do love you.
You're a family member of mine.
But I'm not you know, because we don't believe in the same things.
You have no meaning in my life. Like it's like we have gotten to the place where
Ideological bunkers.
And those are so dangerous, because here you and I like let's say let's say that we have the same belief around immigration.
Um, so we're gonna flip this table over and we're gonna get behind it in our ideological bunker and we're gonna be like, Yeah.
You know, and then one day I'm gonna turn to you and say, you know
One thing I'm wondering about.
Yeah.
How are we gonna solve the problem?
with the folks coming over.
In the dinghy's.
From France.
'Cause I don't think we're going to be able to go without solving it.
because we do have an employment issue and a housing crisis. And then you go
You're out.
My care for you, my connection with you?
Completely dependent.
On you not questioning anything we agreed to back here.
Well that's counterfeit connection.
What's real connection?
But I gotta know what's going on in your mind'cause your face is like we gotta play poker, tech we're gonna have to put that on our agenda.
Mm.
What are you thinking? I was just thinking about being a podcaster, and I sit here with all types of people. So I had Kamala Harris sat here.
Three, four days ago.
And
I'll have
Someone on the right.
So yeah. Yeah. And then I'll have maybe Michelle Obama, then I'll have
Jordan Peterson, then I'll have the opposite of whatever Jordan Peterson is.
And I was just thinking about how um
How that's also kind of made me feel like I don't belong.
Because that is quite rare.
There's probably not a podcast on earth that has had both Michelle Obama and Jordan Peterson.
No.
Yeah.
And then Kamal Harris after that. Like I didn't manage to scare Michelle off, I didn't scare Jordan off.
And so
you get a you kinda get attacked from both sides.
Oh I mean look.
If you're not if you're not
getting threatening shit.
From the far and
Here, the far left or the far right?
If you're not getting both, you're not doing your job. Amen.
Yeah. But it's tough.
Oh God, it is
Heartbreaking. Yeah.
It will break your heart and it will remind you of why
Standing alone?
is on the front of that book.
Mm.
Because
What it will do i is it is winnow the right word? It will narrow
Your belonging, your true belonging. Yeah.
Down to
A very few.
Yeah.
I mean, I I completely understand how it happens that a podcaster like me will end up picking a side because there is safety in numbers.
Well'cause there's an ideological bunker'cause we flip the table over.
Hundred percent. At any point, you know, when the left attacks you, I'm like, wow, the right looks pretty when the right attacks you, you go, Oh, the left looks pretty good.
Because
Standing in the m in no man's land is
It's not the place you want to be.
I know I'm never gonna succeed.
in this. Like I know I'm never gonna succeed in converting people converting people to be nuanced and to not get
viscerally angry when I have someone on the show who's on the right, or viscerally angry when I have someone on the show who's on the left. I'm already aware that when the Kamara episode comes out, it's just gonna be a bunch of people that didn't listen and within the first three minutes the comment section's just gonna be F you. Yeah.
And I'm like I part of me is trying to win that war with my audience.
Where they too
Well just listen.
And I know that you don't agree with the person, but can you just listen?
'Cause that's what I do and it's not some act I'm putting on. It's not like I walk out there and I start but I I'm right wing in my kitchen or left wing in my kitchen.
Genuinely the brain way my brain works is oh I see this
This good in this individual.
And then I meet someone else who's on the other side and say, Oh, there's a couple of points of good that I agree upon agree with them on this.
That's how I am.
And it feels so weird.
Because when you go on the internet, you don't find yourself
being compelled by either side entirely.
No.
No, and I I think it's really confusing. And the only limit I have really is I am not probably going to have a conversation with you.
If your beliefs
Question.
My humanity.
Okay.
That that's gonna be my line.
That that's gonna be that's gonna be the line for me.
is going to be
If you're cruel
Or name Collie.
Yeah.
Or if your core beliefs about who I am.
Mm-hmm.
or who other people are are dehumanizing.
I I I can't I can't that I can't do because now I've betrayed myself in order to make a political point about nuance.
Yeah. Because that because you know.
Dehumanization is a really
Interesting and hard thing.
When you study when you look at the research of people who study dehumanization.
And you t we talked about earlier with the with immigrant populations.
There is a circle of moral inclusion.
We are not built.
We are not hardwired to hurt each other.

Asalt, rape, beat.
It's not we're not wired for it, actually.
So in order to
To do that.
You you've got a person here inside your moral inclusion.
In order to be okay with that, you've got to push them outside of moral inclusion.
To be morally excluded from somebody you s human.
And worthy of moral inclusion. And the first
Step.
To moral exclusion.
Moving people out.
Of a safety zone where you don't do horrible things to them.
The first way to move people out.
Is language.
Throughout history.
As long as people have lived.
So
You hear people in this administration calling a a a community of immigrants an infestation.
The same way we would talk about animals or rats.
You know, and so
My only limit
to hard conversation.
Is
If you're operating from an ideology.
Where women are dogs.
Immigrants are
Illegal.
You know, if you're operating from that place of moral exclusion.
You are too dangerous for me.
But other than that, I'd probably be willing to have a conversation with anyone. But I can understand why people pick sides. I tell you what, it is lonely.
Yeah, I make sense.
Yeah.
It's nice to hear though. It's really nice to hear that that that is um
Yeah.
We've talked about it quite a lot, me and Jack.
um who's been producing the show since the very beginning. Uh we've we've talked a lot about how
We understand the temptation to pick a side. And actually one of the greatest compliments a journalist has ever given me.
is they wrote in the article and this wasn't a journalist that liked me. They just said um
We're unable to
ascertain which political
party he is part of.
I thought that was a great compliment, because
I mean that
That's that's a journal that's a journalistic ethos.
I think they would want to pin me down and say he's fucking they'd love to say I'm right wing or something else.

But they said um
And it's not very nice.
piece they'd written about me or whatever they said that you
We're unable to figure out what side he's part of. And I think that's a compliment because it's
It's true and it I think it allows me to do my job better that I don't have too many preconceptions when I meet people. I try and meet people for the first time.
Which I enjoy. I think you're pretty good at that'cause you are insatiably curious.
Hm. It's it's lovely and terrible.
Why terrible. It's terrible for an avoidant.
I found this out recently. I've known it my whole life, but I found it out recently because I had a conversation. If someone's I think if someone's
uncomfortable with vulnerability, then I'm like the fucking worst nightman. You are
Which is interesting because I don't think she was super vulnerable.
Really?
Uh
Mm, maybe carefully optimistic vulnerable. Yeah, that's probably like like you're c you're cognitively a believer.
Yeah. And trying to move the rest of you to it.

You've got the journalistic ethos.
Uh
Equal opportunity.
Insatiable curious guy, right? Mm-hmm.
What do you think the responsibility is of someone who has a platform?
Yeah.
to vet or understand the credibility
Especially when it comes to science or those kind of things of what their guest is saying.
I think that
We w uh the school of podcasters haven't really
We don't have the um

Ex
the training that journalists do. So we're almost catching up in that regard, especially if you become a big podcaster because you're kind of held you're held at a in a different level.
So more recently, one of the things we do is we we've hired a I mean, this recently it was a year and a half ago, we hired a PhD who does exactly that, who after this comes out will go through everything that you said and then put on the screen things that were
Not within scientific consensus.
But that in itself
is a decision.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It is a decision.
It's not a choice without consequence either.
No.
Some people don't like it.
What led you to that choice?
When your podcast reaches lots of people.
You're forced it's kind of going to what I said earlier about the political stuff. You're forced to really get clear on what you believe and like what matters to you. And one of the things that matters to me is that.
The stuff we put into the world.
We feel like it's helping people, even if it's not nice.
And it kinda goes to something that I read in your work, which is like our objective isn't to be
Nice, it's to be kind. Oh yeah.
And say, for example, my convers the conversations we have about AI, like I'm well aware that that's not gonna necessarily make you feel great.
But
I think the avoidance of discomfort in in through history.
Oh god. So like if you think there's a bus coming, I can
You know, it's
I can
pretend there isn't, but if I think that there might be a bus coming and if if experts and uh telling me there's a bus coming, I think we should have a conversation about the bus coming.
And actually me having that conversation, I get messages all the time which is like, Please stop talking about this subject, it doesn't make me feel good.
I'm very anchored to like what my my my job is here and I think it's we can push people further.
Towards uh
We can progress we can create progress through
Honest conversations.
So when the podcast got bigger and you get more and more
you get attacked more for any any of your guests that you have on. You have to get clear on what matters to you and what your job is. And so one of the things I thought is actually when we have these conversations, I want them to be as accurate as they possibly can be.
For the listener who might be confused,'cause it's in confusing world in this new world of democratized media media.
So
We do that. I really respect that. I just want to say, um, I don't think
that that choice
is the easy choice.
What is the easy choice, do you think?
The easy choice is
I'm gonna let you
Say whatever you want.
And I'll let my listeners sort out if it's real or not.
Mm-hmm.
And I'll take no responsibility for the credibility
Or the facts.
That are being presented.
Mm-hmm. Um
What I think is interesting about what you're doing
Is
It just seems like a very solid approach where
I'm a big believer in science.
you know, I'm married to physician. I'm a social scientist. Like I'm I'm I'm not gonna be
the golden child of this administration when it comes to science, for sure. Like I have a I love science.
Mm-hmm.
Shirt.
that I wear with a DNA scarf. So like I'm I'm like I'm very real about that.
I also
Don't think
That everything that we see
that is projected as peer reviewed clinical trial, you know, I think challenges to that system are also important. I think science cannot be a self referencing system any more than any other system can be. So to have people that have different opinions or new opinions
On.
But
to let your listeners or your viewers know that this is not an opinion where there's a lot of a data collected or that this is a controversial opinion.
is respecting people's cognitive self determination.
I I just think it's a it's it's an interesting way to do it. I just I I think
I launched the podcast and it became very big during Covid.
Oh god.
Yeah.
And so
Houston is home to the biggest medical center in the world.
Like in the world.
And
I live in the medical center area.
in the beginning there were just, you know, it just there never stopped being funerals for physicians and people working on Covid. And so to hear on podcasts that it doesn't exist
Yeah.
Or that you can use, you know.
Windex or you know, like some bullshit like that.
I I just started to and then I got into a little dust up around it in my own situation. And so
I'm always interested as we enter this world in
Platform.
And podcast responsibility.
It is a it's a slippery slope.
And there's no
There's no perfect outcome. Like you don't want to go too far either way, right? You don't want to like oh fucking the government get involved and tell you what truth is or
But you also don't want to stray into um conspiracy land and um away from science because
Yeah.
There are things that are knowable.
Yeah.
They're things that are knowable.
But
But
I don't know. I I I just think it's an interesting question for this time, and I think it's an interesting question when you have a platform that's powerful.
And I think if you're doing the best you can to make
decisions based on the case. What what is the question?
that drives your decision making.
For me.
No, like just in general. Yeah, I got your you want to you want to help your listeners and you want to do good.
Yeah. Um
That's a different thing than downloads.
You can do both. You can do both. But if your only filter
W Oh you you'd go for fucking
Total conspiracy.
I just think it's an interesting question. I don't have an answer. I just know that it's an important question. Yeah, and you know what, I'll be honest though as um
I mean, we're not journalists we're not journalists here, so we don't really understand the rigor and I've got a lot of respect for journalists and the the effort they've put in to understand the journalistic method and all those things. I feel like we're somewhat catching up. We didn't this podcast went from zero to seventeen million people a month in
Four and a half years or something.
So and we're just again holding on, like me and Jack didn't run a podcast before, so I didn't run one before and so
We're now catching up and part of the part of the way that
We're shaped as with feedback and
You get lots of feedback.
Don't have this person, I'll never speak to this person again, do and you kind of embat that stuff off, but if there's any
Ever anything that actually feedback that actually is in contra contradiction.
That does test your own.
mission or your own values, then you listen and you well you know.
You can start to innovate and one of the things that we thought was smart was to have the pop ups on screen.
Which everybody is probably familiar with by now.
And it's a balancing act. We don't want to completely discredit everything that the guest has to say, but we also just want to
Give context.
And that's kinda context what they're saying. If something's ridiculous, we'll just remove it. Like if something's absolutely published the episode is probably a better way of saying it.
We had a couple of episodes where people said some guests and things which were just
Absolutely fucking crazy. You don't need a PhD to know that.
You can't exercise by lying on the ground. Like I this one guest had said to me.
But you can build your muscles just by laying on your back or whatever and
Not doing anything. We just didn't punish the episode. I can just say as a PhD that I have attempted that.
Yeah.
No, I think that I respect the approach.
Which is one of the reasons I decided to come on.
'Cause I respect the approach.
We're not perfect, but we're trying.
That's the thing.
That you're walking a path.
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On that point about me and vulnerability.
Is vulnerability important?'Cause there's a lot of performative vulnerability taking place in the issue.
Is is it an important thing for my health happiness?
My future to be a vulnerable person.
Well, let's define it.
Um, vulnerability is the emotion we experience when we have
When we are up against uncertainty.
Risk.
And emotional exposure.
So vulnerability is what I feel.
It's the cringe.
The awkward.
the thing that I the emotion I feel
In times of uncertainty, risk or emotional exposure.
So
It was really interesting because I had a hard time helping people understand because
There's we're so raised to believe that vulnerability is weakness.
that it took a trip to Fort Bragg working with special forces to ask
Soldiers a question. Give me a single example of courage.
In your life.
One example that you've witnessed or you you yourself have done. One example of courage that did not require
Uncertainty, risk, or emotional exposure.
No one could answer it.
Finally a young soldier stood up and said, Three tours.
There is no courage without vulnerability. So is vulnerability important? It is if we want to l be brave with our lives.
If we if we want to be able to manage ourselves in a way
That's values aligned.
and courageous.
We have
To be able to reconcile.
How we feel.
When we're uncertain, at risk, or exposed.
I mean and really weirdly
The next week after the trip to Fort Bragg, I was with Seattle Seahawks.
The football team, NFL team. Yeah. Ask the players.
Give me an example of courage on the field or off.
That did not require vulnerability.
They said that it's not possible.
There is no courage. Like if you're doing
Things in your life in your work.
And there's no risk.
No uncertainty.
And no exposure.
Then they're not brave.
If you know how it's going to end,
That is not courage.
Courage is the willingness to show up and be all in.
When you cannot predict the outcome.
Courages.
Saying I love you first.
That's you wanna know what vulnerability is?
I love you first. Have you ever said I love you first?
Uh, I'm not sure. Yeah. It's been a while. But it's hard.
It's you know give context.

Since I've
Been in that situation.
Well you've had to go first. Yeah. Yeah. I mean there's this great story that I tell about
Oh, I gave a talk here. It was actually in LA and afterwards a kid came up to me, he's probably twenty two or twenty three, and he said, Can I tell you a story about your work and how it's really
change my life. And I was like, sure. And a kind of a crowd grew around. And this is like the last time I ever got pinned, like not being able to exit a stage.
'Cause it was such a traumatic it wasn't traumatic, but it was like he said well
I was dating this woman.
And
I was so crazy about her. So I took her to eat to our favorite restaurant.
And I waited until the dessert came'cause we love this chocolate volcano.
And I ordered it and I said
I love you.
And she looked at me and she said
I think you're awesome.
And I think we should
Date other people.
And then she ubered home.
And so I was like, God damn, this is the worst story I've ever heard
This is not a good story. And he said
So I got my car.
And I drove home and the whole way home.
I just kept saying to myself over and over.
Fuck Brene Brown.
Fucking.

When when's the turn on the story, you know? And he said, I got home and I walked into my apartment
Not push the door open.
And both my roommates were wired in, they were on their computers and
It looked up and said, Dude, what's going on?
And he said.
I told her I loved her.
And she told me I was awesome.
And one of my roommates looked at me and said,
That's not how it works.
When you are going to
Toward them they go away.
So you're always kind of going away. So they come towards you.
And he goes, Oh, oh, no.
No.
I don't wanna I don't wanna be that dude.
I was daring greatly.
And he said both of his roommates just got teary eyed.
And went.
Right on, man. Right on. Like
There is no courage without vulnerability.
How can you say you're brave?
If you're not putting yourself out there.
So many people have been through things which have made it very, very difficult for them to be
Vulnerable.
I was actually speaking to someone yesterday who's
With cheat on
Bunch of attachment issues in the
Early childhood.
And funnily enough, when I was talking to her about
I was asking her questions about'cause I'm very deep person, I this
carries over into my personal life.
I was asking her questions about the things you know she'd been through and whatever else. She just shuts down?
And she told me that she she, um
What were the exact words? She said that she finds vulnerability
To be a form of intimacy.
that she
tries to stay away from because
she needs to really, really, really trust the person before she opens up. And I think this is a trend you see across a lot of people. They
They won't open up enough to form a connection because they've been hurt before by opening up.
And it feels too scary to do that. And that results in them being
Single, alone.
Unhappy.
So on and so on.
Yeah, I mean I think there's there the what you said was
So loaded.
With so many things. So first of all, there's the the there's this very interesting relationship between vulnerability and trust.
And how does that work?
And
W people always ask me what comes first, trust or vulnerability. Do I trust you first, then I'm vulnerable, or am I vulnerable first and then I trust you? And I think it's a very slow stacking. We get to know each other.
I share a little bit. I don't I don't share hey
Nice to meet you Stephen. Here's my darkest, horrible, most painful trauma. You know,'cause that that is actually
That kind of litmus testing is actually a form of armor.
I'm gonna throw something at you.
that our relationship in no way has been built long enough to h hold, you're going to go away.
And I'm going to use that as verification that vulnerability is dangerous. Like that's litmus testing.
Лет мі пров то є.
That you're not trustworthy.
Yeah, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Oh, I see you're backing away. That's what I thought.
I'm backing away because we haven't built a relationship that can bear the weight of this story.
Can we start?
Can we start small?
Okay.
Vulnerability trust. Vulnerability trust. Vulnerability trust.
Mm.
I think I g in that in my work we call that like
The smash and grab.
Like I'm gonna I'm gonna hit you with something really big.
And then watch you go away and use it as evidence.
Mm.
Yeah.
And it takes a really skilled person to say
Yeah, I'm really
I'm taking in what you told me. I want to be respectful and honor that.
And
I don't have a way to file it right now'cause I don't know you well enough.
So I appreciate the share I mean, we also call it spotlighting. So like if I had a military grade spotlight that they use in the wilderness, I work with the military a lot and
I I
picked it up and put it in your face right here, what would you do physically? Oh
That's what that's our reaction to too much vulnerability too fast.
Yeah. Like yeah.
I don't know. I don't know you. Um
So you're talking about the slow stacking of courage and uh vulnerability and trust, and then you're also talking about that
When
I mean, we've had a lot of hard things happen to us.
I think this is where I really believe the democratization of coaching and therapy, that a lot of times we have to work with people, like we have to get help.
to be able to open up and take off some of the armor that we put on because sometimes that armor
That we put on.
It's frickin' survival.
Yeah.
I mean, and you want to start adding
You want to start adding variables like race.
Gender.
Like
You know?
Any anything where there's social systems also at play.
That's survival. Like telling me right now at my career.
Like, hey, you should be vulnerable with your new team.
And and talk about your previous failures, you know.
Well, of course I could do that. And I would do it and everybody would clap and they'd think she's so brave and take the new person who's a young black woman or the new first LGBTQ person on a team and say, Hey, tell tell every don't don't tell anybody shit.
Develop trust first.
Develop.
Uh see how how
Trust your own instincts about the accountability of this group to hold themselves accountable for their behavior. Like
Vulnerability.
Is not more necessary for any of us than anybody else.
But certainly more difficult for other for f for some people, for sure.
And I think
What's hard about that, what's so painful, probably the most painful part of my career.

Is that
Regardless of why the armor is on.
Without vulnerability you cannot access.
the experiences that are the most meaningful in life.
Love.
To love someone is to be vulnerable from the time you wake up to the time you go to bed. You know that you're in a relationship. To love is to be vulnerable.
Right.
And have you ever buried someone you loved?
Like I lost my mom two years ago. Like
My kids it's like having your heart live outside of your body.
Like to love is to be vulnerable'cause it's to risk grief and losing.
Belonging is vulnerable.
The most the most vulnerable human emotion?
Joy.
Joy is so vulnerable.
That when some of us get close to it?
We dress rehearse tragedy?
To prepare for disappointment.
Like it's so vulnerable that we don't even let ourselves feel joy.
Because we're so afraid someone's gonna rip it away and we're gonna get sucker punched by disappointment.
Yes or no? Like people choose to live disappointed.
rather than to feel disappoint risk feeling disappointed and get excited about something.
Yeah, it's like the first time my kids
shared with me when they were young.
Certainly not the way I was raised, but you know, I I really, really want to make this team, Mom.
And I said
I wanna pause you for a second.
And tell you how brave it is.
to talk openly about something you want so much.
when you don't have control over whether you get it or not.
I want I want it for you because you want it.
But regardless of what happens, I admire your courage.
for wanting something and sharing.
Out loud.
That you want it.
Because if you don't get it, I'll know.
But it was a crushing blow.
But that's so great because I'll be here for you when that happens either way.
So we
And I and I'm really I'm a really I'm I we call it foreboding joy.
That joy is so good.
just waiting for the other shoe to drop. And people who have trauma histories are really like that. Like for me
Is the way I was raised.
When something good happens, I'm like oh God.
Now what's gonna happen. Statistically, bad shit's gonna roll around any second now.
And it's interesting because the group of people that we research, the only group of people
that could take that b you know there's a bodily quiver, right? The vulnerability.
Have you felt it? Yeah. Yeah.
The only people that can really lean into joy consistently are people who use that vulnerability quiver.
As a reminder to be grateful.
to be able to practice gratitude in that second. So gratitude is a huge
Enabler of joy.
Is that automatic or
Can one train that you're going to do. No, it's a training.
Oh shit, no, I had to d I I I mean
Yeah.
Standing at my front door.
Watching.
my sixteen year old daughter.
walk down the sidewalk with her boyfriend in high school.
And get in his truck for for a prom.
Right.

And I'm standing there.
And I'm like

And you know, what am I worried about?
Yeah, prom night.
Like Carbec, right?
Of course when I when I tell the story the military is always like pregnancy I'm like no no no no car wreck. And so I just remember staying there and she gets in and and I'm staying next to Steve and Charlie
My my son's, you know, at this time he's ten. And I'm like, I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful. I'm grateful for this moment. I'm grateful that I'm a part of it. I'm grateful that they did the croissage and the boutineer over here. I'm grateful that I got to help pick out the dress. I'm so grateful. And Charlie goes
Looks at Steve, what's wrong with Mom?
Um and she goes
She's
She's practicing gratitude. Let her do it. Otherwise she's gonna get on a crazy train and it's gonna be all health. And you know, like'cause it part of me wants to say, Oh God.
God.
Like so beautiful and so joyful.
And get in your truck and follow them right now. If he's speeding, I wanna know about it. If he's not stopping fully to stop sign, follow them until this date is over. You know, that's that's what I wanna do.
'Cause I'm afraid.

the joy of that moment was just too much for me.
Too vulnerable.
It appears you've overcome.
Various traits of old.
Renee Brown.
No, I'm overcoming.
Overcoming. No, I'm not over I I have not overcome. Have you overcome anything?
Yes, the belief that I will overcome anything.
I've overcome the belief that
I have overcome the belief.
That
I will ever arrive.
I am grateful for the skills that I have.
That are new skills.
that keep me more aligned with the person, the mom, the partner, the leader that I want to be.
But I
I
Um
mindful all the t I try to stay very mindful that I am
Scary when I'm scared.
That I catastrophize very
very easily, and that's painful for everybody around me.
And I don't need to be liked.
I just need to be myself. Like but those are things
'Cause I will I will sit down. Like

I was like this this will be this will be a pizza cake and I'm like, Shit I don't do that anymore. Bummer.
Two days ago. Yeah.
Out of what
Just with a group of people that I knew what it would take to be liked.
And you made the choice.
Just to be myself. Yeah.
Why?
Because now the person I'm gonna betray.
Last?
Is me.
Yeah, I hope I see you again, but
Not that important.

Some people might find that
Somewhat demoralising to know that they
They too might never
Cure.
parts of themselves that they're desperate to change. I think people, you know, they often come to podcasts like this or read books like yours looking for s solution fixes.
to not liking myself.
to the way that I react to my emotions. They want to fix it.
Because if they can fix it, then they can be happy.
For a very
Beautiful reason.
That if we could fix it.
And never have to wrestle it again.
We would be so short on grace that
For other people.
That we would be
Pirates.
So you think it it creates a form of empathy for this.
I'm not gonna I have like really serious boundaries. I'm a very boundary person. But when I see someone behaving a certain way, I was like
My ass L C's.
You're inner asshole right here. I get I get it. I get what you're doing. I'm not gonna tolerate it. I'm gonna set a boundary around it.
But I'm not really judging you for it. It's just that behavior's not okay right here.
But you like yourself now?
Yeah.

I I
Yeah, I do.
I do.
I can I can
I can think I can say that pretty
I like what I'm becoming.
And for anyone that doesn't like themselves, what what work has that to go into getting to the point where you like what you be you're becoming?
I think the hardest is
Maybe one of the biggest findings of my research over the last twenty five years is it's not

Feel that gets in the way of us being brave with our lives and our work.
It's armor.
Everybody's afraid.
It's okay to be afraid.
What's dangerous is the armor that we reach for to self-protect when we're afraid.
And how that armor moves us.
Away from
Love, connection.
And our values.
And so
I think the hardest work is
For me
Constantly
being aware of what is my armor. What am I what am I grabbing for when I'm afraid.
What am I grabbing for when I want to protect my sense of self worth, my ego? Like and and
How heavy that shit is.
You know, at some point I had to wear it.
Because that was survival for me growing up.
But this is the big
This is the big
Developmental
milestone.
Of middle age.
Which you are squarely entering.
Which is kind of when the universe grabs you by the shoulders.
And pulls you really close.
And says
I'm not fucking around anymore.
They give you gifts.
Choosing not to grow into them.
Is not.
Benign.
There's a consequence for that.
And your armor is getting in the way.
You're a grown ass person now.
You have different choices.
Let go of what doesn't serve.
And that is the big milestone I think that we have to wrestle with in midlife.
What no longer serves.
that's preventing us from growing into who we want to be.
And is that where vulnerability comes into the picture? Oh for sure.
Because all the armor.
All the armor.
is about vulnerability.
It requires a huge amount of um
I was gonna say self awareness.
Yes.
could probably never accomplish, I mean
That's why I think metaphor is helpful.
Mm.
Most of us can understand.
If you back me into an emotional corner.
What are you going to get?
Like as a leader, I know my armor, perfectionism, micromanagement.
I get super intensive. I get recklessly decisive.
I know my armor.
And my team knows my armor.
I think
my armor in my personal life, especially when it comes to my kids when I get
When I feel vulnerable.
is control.
Control control.
Take over.
All the chess pieces.
But that's
What a good idea.
That's not possible.
Mm.
It's just it's just pretend.
That's called anxiety.
Like
pretending that you can control the chessboard of other people's lives. Much less other people's lives, but I think I do it out of
Fear.
Is fear the opposite of
Courage.
No, I think the opposite of courage is armor.
I think the opposite of courage is self protection.
to be courageous in this context, whether it's as a leader or in another
environment, you talk about these four steps.
To carry, you talk about it in strong ground.
Yeah.
This was research that emerged like fifteen years ago and I was really, really nervous because I'm a grounded theory researcher. I'm a qualitative researcher. So a grounded theory is only as good as its ability to work new data. So you develop a hypothesis or a theory.
Based on data.
And then as you collect more data.
Does the hypothesis hold?
And you know, this we collected that data pre pandemic.
You know.
Pre pre a lot of things.
And so I was really worried about the four skill sets of courage, which are
Identifying and understanding your core values.
I would love to do this exercise with you sometime. Um to
understanding what gets in the way of you wrestling with vulnerability, kind of owning it and moving through it constructively.
Three, how to build trust and how to become super important, trustworthy to yourself.
Self trust.
Because one of the first casualties of failure or disappointment or setback
Is we lose
Our oh our ability to trust ourselves.
our ability to make good decisions, our ability to take care of ourselves. And the last one, which is my favorite
Because
it can really I've seen it really change in organization is
how to get back up after failure and disappointment.
How to reset.
How to be
how to manage your own bounce when hard shit happens.
So those are the four skill sets of courage. Again
Evidence based.
observable, measurable, and teachable. We've taken a hundred and sixty five thousand people through this work across forty five countries.
Collected data on all of it.
It's so exciting.
And it withstood all of the complex changes over the last five years.
Including AI.
organizationally,'cause this is where we do our work. I don't I'm not a therapist or clinician. I don't work with like families or individuals. I mean I have a therapist, but I'm not one. Um so I think
You can develop scourage skills.
Th the third point is br braving trust. Yeah. And y I've heard about your marble jar theory, so I've got a jar of marble. I saw that.
Um could you explain to me what your marble jar look at how excited you are. Um
So this comes you know, where where is where where do I get my information? Ellen's in fourth grade, my oldest. She comes home from school.
Mm. The front door closes.
She slides down the door.
Into a heap sobbing.
Oh my God, Ellen, are you okay? Are you hurt? What's going on? She says that
Something hard happened.
She shared it.
Like very confidentially with one or two of her friends during recess.
When she got back to the classroom.
They had told everybody in her class, all thirty kids.
Everybody was laughing and pointing and making fun of her.
and she said, I will never trust anyone again.
And my response immediately.

In person.
You trust your mama?
And that's it.
Like that was my response. But
Again.
That's not the right thing to do, right?
You want a kid who can develop trust with others. So I said
Trust is really hard. She said, I don't understand it.
And her teacher at the time, Mrs. Balcom.
Had a mar a marble jar.
And when the teen when the when the class would collectively make good decisions, she would put marbles in this empty jar and when it got full, they'd have an extra recess and party.
Mm-hmm.
And so immediately what came to me'cause I'm describing trust, which is a hard concept to a fourth grader, I said trust is the marble jar.
She's like, What do you mean? And I said
Every time you share somebody something with someone that's confidential and they don't share it, they get a marble.
Every time you build trust.
When you want to share something really private and personal, you look for a friend and
Whose jar is full of marbles.
Do you have any marble jar friends?
She's like, Not the ones I shared with today and I said, Who are your marble jar friends? And she said, Hannah and Lorna.
And I said, Tell me something they do to earn marbles.
Oh, well like if I get to my tray late at lunch and there's no place to sit.
Lorna will scoot over and give me half her seat and then we just share one seat and I can sit at the table. And then the other day when I had strep throat, Hannah was worried about me. So remember her mom called and said Hannah's worried about Ellen, why wasn't she at school? But then the biggest thing that Hannah did was the other day.
Oma and Opa, my parents, my mom and her her husband, came to my soccer game and Hannah looked over and goes, Oh my God, your Oma and Opa are here And I said
Why was that a big deal? She goes.
Because everybody's divorced and remarried and I've got eight
you know, four sets of people and she remembered their names. And what was shocking to me
Is that Ellen was conveying
That these marbles were being earned on these very small she knew my grandparents' name. She gave me a seat to sit at. She checked on me when I was missing school.
And so
It made me start thinking about the literature on trust. So I immediately go to the Gotmans.
Have you had the Gotmans on here? Oh twice, yeah.
Yeah, I mean just like yeah. So I go to the Gottman's research on trust and I read right off the bat where Gottman say trust is earned in small moments every day.
He tells a story. It's my favorite story that he tells. And I've had them on my podcast and I've
Done barbs for their books and written for words. It's just great. So he tells a story about how he's also a mystery lover like me. He's on the second to last page of his mystery.
He's like, Oh my God, oh my God I who did it? And he jumps up to go brush his teeth.
And he gets g walks to the bathroom and he sees
His wife.

He's like shit.
Don't look.
Everything's good. Just go to the bathroom and get back in your get back to your book. And he's like
That's a sliding door moment.
I can I have a choice in that moment.
To build trust and stop and say what's going on.
Or
to build betrayal and pretend like I don't see her hurting.
So I stop.
I take the brush out of her hand.
I start brushing her hair.
And say.
What's going on?
That's a sliding door moment that we have all the time.
Right? And so to me
Trust is built.
Slowly over time.
A marble at a time.
And that's how that's how we teach trust.
to the most senior leaders in Fortune one hundred companies.
The trust is a marble jar. It's earned.
Leaders believe
And you're a leader, so you know you know the temptation.
Leaders believe that in the middle of a crisis
You know.
You put the numbers together and there's a fever dream in the United States and there's new tariffs. And you wake up and you know, you're you're you've got a revenue line that's in crisis, and then you can just look at your people and say
Hello, everyone this is like back to the the uh executive presence.
Trust me.
Here's what we're gonna do. And it means nothing.
To people.
What matters is a leader that walks past you in the morning and says, Hey
Good to see Steven. How's your mom's chemo going?
Marbles.
Marbles. Then when the crisis happens, you don't need to say, trust me.
You just need to say what's on your mind. They trust you.

has often plagued my mind is as a leader, sometimes you say things and those things can't happen for whatever reason things change. Right. And um
And I think leaders sometimes think that trust is always being
Correct.
Always predicting everything correctly, always being right.
No.
Trust is
And I think we had nailed this.
I thought
This was how this was gonna happen.
We were wrong, we
You've been working your asses off for six months on this.
And I've got to deprioritize it today standing right here in front of you.
But I'm not gonna bullshit you.
You've been working your ass off on a priority.
Yeah.
literally does not exist today.
Mm.
I want to stop and say thank you.
I saw what you were doing.
I wanna be completely transparent about why the priority has shifted.
And then I'm gonna ask you for the same level of work on the new priority.
Yes or no?
Yeah, and in the blame and responsibility often rear their heads. That's right. F for better or life.
The eyelash or something. Oh no, one marble. There you go.
Oh. Yeah. Is that a marvel? Yeah it is, yeah. Yeah. You didn't have to say that, you do.
I think that sometimes people say you've got some shit on your shirt. I'm like that's thank you so much because it would have been much
easier for you not to point out the bogey on my face or whatever, you know what I mean?
I don't trust somebody that doesn't do that.
So I guess it is a marble.
Mm.
Someone said to me a couple of weeks ago on the podcast, they said, I trust people who say things in public that is against their near term interests. And I thought hmm.
Oh.
That's good.
Oh.
That's it.
Mm.
Right? Yeah. Yeah.
It's a good metaphor though, right? Mm-hmm.
It's the trust in the marble jar has been very helpful for us.
And let me tell you there are behaviors.
This is plastic.
There are behaviors in relationships where you take this whole thing and just slam it on the ground. Cheating.
I think that's an obvious one.
There's one that's more
has a more ragged edge of grief and distress than even cheating.
Which is just slowly disengaging.
Emotionally disengagement. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, gosh.
That's a ragged that's a ragged edged break on that marble jar. And it just happens over time and every w the other people think that they're nuts and
It makes them question their own judgment.
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Steven.
You have been in a relationship much longer than me, but we s share a lot of similarities in many ways. I was wondering if um if you were to give me
Any relationship advice that might
hold my shit together over the next thirty years.
I mean you could give me so much, I know, because I've seen I've seen so much of the incredible r I've actually stolen so much advice. One of the things I stole recently, which me and my girlfriend talked about was
Sometimes I'd come home and I'm on like ten percent and I heard you say this. Oh yeah. And I just I don't communicate to my girlfriend that I'm on I've got like ten percent left. Yeah. And then she tr you know, she might want to try and work through some shit, but she can't do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's gonna go bad. It's gonna go bad. Yeah, let's not do this at
One AM. No.
And I saw you talk about how you communicate, you vocalize what you have left in the tank to give context to the other person. I guess to create some empathy for both of you, but
I've stolen that. But is there anything else that um
You think might help me over the next thirty years to
Have a good relationship with my girlfriend.
With all the risks that you see.
I'll just start by saying I think therapy
Couple's work.
is like so incredibly
powerful and helpful. I think the Gottman's work.
is really like we read the Gotman's work together sometimes. I think I think that's helpful.
As someone that struggles with vulnerability. Oh yeah, no, for sure.
Well you you've run
No, I was willing. Oh, really good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I struggle with vulnerability, but I really respect humility in people so much that even if I'm not feeling humility
I will fake humility and be like I need help.
And then I'll say, Shit, this is real. This is hard.
But I I guess the biggest thing is that s n neither Steve and I nor I had
Any modelling.
of what a healthy relationship look like.
At all.
And
I think one commitment we made is to just
Keep showing up. I mean these are the three commitments. Keep showing up.
Don't buy into the bullshit that it's supposed to be easy. It'll be the hardest thing you ever do.
and ask for help.
And that's not
There's no
I I wish I could give you like a here's the secret to it.
But the secret to us is we keep showing up.
We know it's not supposed to be easy.
And we get help.
And the help being
You turn to him and ask for help or external help.
We try new things.
Um
We try new tools.
We just
We don't ever want to be done learning and trying to be better for ourselves and for each other.
And that's a lot.
Thirty eight years together.
Is
Not just like the

Of a life and a family?
But we
Buried Paris.
You know, we've
Gone through illnesses.
We've
Raised
You know, kids.
We've
We've gone through different seasons in our own lives where we were not synced at all.
It's really, really hard.
But
It's
I'm more proud of it than anything I've ever done.
'Cause my setup for success was zero.
You've buried parents.
Yeah. Christmas Day.
My mom died on Christmas Day after my sisters and I were there her primary caregiver for four years with dementia.
Four years.
I wouldn't wish that shit.

Hate the most.
I na I try not to hate people.
But I
God gives me grace for it on occasion. But um
I would not wish that on anybody.
You know, there's the reality of it. You know, she gets there, there's an accident, you're showering your mom, you're bathing your mom.
Mm-hmm.
You know, and
She knows just enough.
To be humiliated by it.
Right.
But this is life. Like this is this is
Caregiving.
You know.
And it's a
Tremendous
emotional fizical
Mental.
Wait.
that falls primarily on women.
who are also in the workforce.
Yeah, thank God I had two sisters, so there's three of us. Um but
And many people have very many people have
Zero.
It's like you and your PhD resource uh PHD researcher.
I have resources.
A lot of resources.
And I think it almost killed me.
You know, and so
It almost killed you.
I mean yeah, it it
To lose someone that you love like I love my mom.
In bits and pieces.
in chips and bones in you know like that is
You know, and then
There was a day when she just got incredibly, incredibly cruel. Like my mom was the fulcrum.
Our family changed on her back.
Like she was the first person to go to therapy.
She left my dad.
She got us into therapy. She worked three jobs she she changed everything. She talked about the long history of addiction in our family, you know, on both sides, everywhere. She changed our family. And so

Yeah.
somebody who I respected and revered, like was is an understatement. And
You know
And we did so much healing work.
Around
Kind of how she showed up.

And so then the one day I went to go take care of her.
And I saw that thing that I hadn't seen since I was fourteen.
You know, and I'm fifty four.
You know, and it literally like I couldn't drive like it brought me physically to my knees.
Like
My husband had to come and get me.
And
I don't like
I can be I can't talk about it without getting emotional because it's not like I blamed my mom'cause she's in the middle of this disease, you know.
But it was like I
I didn't see her for
Two months after that.
And Steve kept saying, I I sa I can't.
And he's like, You gotta you gotta heal from that.
I mean, just imagine being dropped back in.
a worst case scenario situation when you were thirteen or fourteen.
And then you know, you're just like
I can't I can't.
And you know, my sisters were like
I got we got we got this.
And then they'd go through a period where they were like, I can't.
Right now.
And then I okay, I got it. But Steve always had it.
She was like, I got the diaper.
I'll take him to dinner.
I'll meet with the doctor. It's like
That's partnership.
You know what I mean? That's partnership.
How did how did you deal with the grief?
Well
Don't send me your hate mail.
Packers.
But
You know, when she died it was nothing but relief.
I've heard this. I I've never not heard that.
From someone that had a parent with struggling with dementia and passing away. It was complete relief. I mean the day before she died, I think we had a really important time with her and
I'm sure she is, you know.
playing dominoes with Ann Richards and Molly Ivans and great other female Texas politicians. Um

But um my mom was very radically political, but uh
Mm.
The window of grief was just
Years.
Uh
There w there was you know.
Very early on, there was no calling her to say.
Oh, Charlie got a really cute date. Let me show you the homecoming pictures. Or hey, Ellen, you know, got into her master's program. That that all just went away. Just
Every
Weak.
And so
That's why, you know, the whole
the whole strong ground book. There's a there's a sentence in the in the first
chapter that said I have a sticky note on my window.
I'm a mirror in the bathroom that says I'd rather be the oldest woman in the gym.
than the youngest woman in assisted living.
Mm.
Because
I do believe in the connection around exercise, you know dementia, the and I I took care
Of my grandmother.
with dementia with my mom.
And my mom and my grandmother made a lot of different lifestyle choices than I've made, but
The whole strong ground.
metaphor is that I went to go see a trainer.
And one day he looked at me and he said
He call me Brown.
He said
Find the ground brown.
And I looked down and I said, Okay and he goes, Not the floor, the ground.
Take your feet.
Push in to the ground. Use your mind to connect with your body.
push into the ground and then tell your mind you're gonna be using fucking lats.
And I was like
Okay.
So I
Did it.
And I felt them.
And I started whispering every time I would do a weightlifting thing, strong ground.
Strong ground.
Strong ground.
An unbelievable, unbelievable book. So we we we didn't cover everything in this book today, which is a great shame, but hopefully we'll speak again in the future. But it's the lessons of daring leadership, the tenacity of of paradox, which is something I was keen to talk about, and the wisdom of the human spirit.
All of your books are amazing. You said earlier on that someone called you a wizard when you were younger. That's exactly what I think you are.
I think you're a wizard.
Why? I think you're a wizard, you have a unbelievable pattern recognition, understanding of humans. You have so many wide reference points that it appears to be magic to a mugle like me.
That's funny.
We're ram and the team are gonna run through the door if I'm not careful of the
But we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next. I'm doing who they're leaving it for. You actually know this person. Um the next guest? No, you know the one that left the question for you. Oh got it. If they didn't know it was for you.
Dear beautiful and highly intelligent next guest.
What are you optimising for right now?
Strength and longevity.
Mentally, physically, spiritually, and emotionally.
Strong ground.
The lessing the lessons of daring leadership, the tenacity of paradox, and the wisdom of the human spirit. You are
You are.
I was trying to think if there's any others. You are the single most requested guest. Um and you have been on the show for for a long, long time, for three or four years. When we ask people who they want me to speak to, they say your name. And they say your name because of these in the incredible work you've done through your own podcast, which I'm gonna link on the screen and below right now, but also through some of these incredible books, which have changed people's lives.
If you're unfamiliar with Brene's work, um
Yeah, I I think people will understand after listening today how much they're missing out on. I'd highly recommend you go and listen to Brenee's podcasts. Um but also to
Check out this book Strong Ground, which I'm gonna I'm gonna link below. Um also Dare to Lead. I think all of um
All of the leadership team in my office reference Dirty Lead so often, which is an incredible book about brave work, tough decisions, and whole hearts. You make the most beautiful artwork.
I consider these books to be artwork again because they pull on so many different reference points to make something that feels so original. And you've helped so many people the fact that my audience have demanded
I speak to you for so long, I think is testament to that. And um you're a wonderful human being. And actually one of the things you've inspired me to be
Is myself.
Because that's exactly what I find you to be. So thank you so much, Brennan, for your time today. It's deeply, deeply appreciated. More so than I could say, and I think you're a wonderful human being.
Please come back again soon.
I will. I have enjoyed every minute of this. I would say it has not been easy.
Because we went to some hard places together.
But it's been meaningful.
Thank you.
Thank you.