Advice Line with RJ Scaringe with Rivian

0:01 Hello and welcome to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges, and each week I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show, who will help me try to help you. And so if you are building something and you need advice, go ahead and give us a call and you might just be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Send us a one minute message with your name, a bit about your business, and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. Or You can send us a voice memo at hibt at id.wondery.com.

0:50 and make sure to tell us how to reach you. Also don't forget to sign up for my newsletter. It's filled with insights and ideas from the world's greatest entrepreneurs. You can sign up for free at guyroz.com or on Substack, and we'll put all this info in the podcast description. Alright, let's go. Joining me this week is RJ Scarynch, he's the founder and CEO of the electric vehicle company Rivian. RJ, it's great to have you back on the show. It's great to be here. You were first on High Built, you've been on twice. We were first on the show back in 2022, and if you guys haven't heard that story, we will put a link in the episode description.

1:25 I really recommend that everyone go and check out this episode if you haven't heard it before, or even if you have, because Your story, RJ, is not it's not a typical story we talk about on how I built this because you entered one of the most challenging industries possible, right? It's highly technical, dominated by legacy players, and of course that's the automotive industry. And it's an electric car company to boot. Um of course fast forward twenty twenty one.

1:50 The first electric pickup, the uh R one Ts went public. Now you've got the R one S, which is the SCV. I have one. It is an amazing car. I know I'm not Vehicle. It is so beautifully made and and a pleasure to drive. Um I think by now you've sold over Hundred and thirty thousand vehicles, including the vans that you build. Um so quite a journey. I mean, even since twenty twenty one. Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's amazing seeing'em on the road and

2:19 Feels like it was simultaneously just yesterday and also a long while ago, but the first vehicles we started building For consumers, there was a lot of learnings and doing that in the middle of COVID. And then with the subsequent supply chain crisis that we had that really kicked off in twenty twenty two. You couldn't have imagined a more challenging backdrop to be building the company and

2:40 But a lot of those skills we built in terms of managing supply chains being really dynamic around You know, how we think about those supply chains. Uh Renal. finding our really valuable skills because it's again, it's a complex environment as we're about to launch. Our next product, which is R two, which is a much lower price product. So is a smaller SUV, and then you're gonna launch an R three, which is a

3:01 Sort of a rally car hatchback. Beautiful. So cool. Yeah, I mean it's it's funny, I was joking with somebody. It seems like every time we're launching a new product, some unexpected externality occurs. So in the case of R one, of course the pandemic and then the supply chain crisis in the case of R two are now Yeah, this really significant

3:22 trade tensions that exist across the planet. And in automotive, this is very significant because of how much was built in terms of our supplier base. in Canada and Mexico. And so it's uh It's a very dynamic environment. Business, as you know uh very well, is often about uncertainty. We're living in uncertain times, RJ. Your cars are entirely made in the US. But like most things made in the US, some of your components are imported

3:48 How do you think tariffs are gonna affect The price of your trucks. Well Yeah, if we think of the R one products, they're all built uh here in the United States. In fact I'm in the plant right now. They're built in normal Illinois. Normal Illinois, yeah. Yeah, so we build the vehicles, we make

4:04 The bodies we paint the bodies, we assemble the vehicles, we build the motors, the inverters, the battery modules, the battery pack. So We have a very large operation here, around eight thousand people that work out of this site. And We're now getting ready to launch ER two. out of this facility.

4:19 But when you think about a vehicle and its supply chain We have hundreds of suppliers per vehicle. But those suppliers have suppliers, and those suppliers that supply suppliers have suppliers. So we yeah, we call that the Your tier one supplier is supply directly to us, but there's tier two, tier three, tier four.

4:36 In some of our systems it goes back six tiers. So there's you know six companies behind the component that's coming in. You know, if you If you include The raw material sourcing. And so The nature of this very complex product.

4:49 And therefore it's very complex supply chain. means that You know, the changes in trade policy and changes in tariffs can be Really. uh impactful to the cost to build our vehicles even with

5:02 Such a US centric business. And so this is obviously grab the attention of every automotive company, every automotive CEO who you know, many of whom I've got great relationships with. We're all very quickly trying to rethink and in many cases rerationalize how we design our supply chains, who are the companies we're working with, where the production locations

5:23 And I think a lot of times at the headline level We sort of think of tariffs in the context of Like a very simple commerce model. Like the world exists trading T shirts and coffee cups. Yeah. And

5:36 uh you know, there are companies that trade T shirts and coffee cups and those are perfectly fine businesses. automobile or aerospace It's way more complex. And I'll just use as a simple example. lithium ion batteries.

5:50 So lithium ion batteries If you're using Yeah, what what's mostly used here in the United States is a nickel chemistry. And we could decide we want to put nickel mines in the United States or nickel processing in the United States. But that it will take many, many years to build that out.

6:05 Mm and so It's not a question of Can we will be able to do it? a nickel mine to you know s suddenly exist in Oklahoma. These things take a lot of time. And that's just One item.

6:15 In our battery supply chain. It's not as simple as uh if we raise tariffs more stuff will be you know, instantly made in the United States. As you say, it would take several years before that capability can be developed in the US. So really sort of calls into question some of the the challenges that we have set up for ourselves as a country. And and some of that came into focus during COVID, right? When it was clear that even medical equipment and and pharmaceuticals are not made and manufactured in the United States. And I understand that. I mean it makes sense that th that this will pose an enormous challenge. Challenge is probably an understatement for electric car companies. But I also wonder whether

6:55 It's sort of a kick in the butt to sort of say, you know. There needs to be a more diversified supply chain for these materials. Because if if China you know, w an important and obviously industrial power decides that it, you know, no longer wants to export these products, that's a big problem. Yeah, yeah.

7:14 We're minerals and for electric vehicles and magnets. It's a lot more than just electric vehicle magnets. It's uh you know, medical imaging equipment, it's LEDs, you know, there's a long range w wind turbines,'cause they've of course have magnets in as well. So there's a lot of products that uh this will impact. And you know, I've said this for a while, and I think a lot have, and we've often talked about it in a more

7:36 theoretical basis to say the US Needs to bring onshore some of these core technologies, semiconductors. Yeah. refining of rare earth metals.

7:46 And I think This is proving the importance of that. But it's it's gonna require policy that supports that and it's also gonna require us to find ways to work with China. Yeah, in the midterm. Like while we're building out those capabilities. That needs to happen. But it'll take this is a

8:01 This is not something that's solved overnight. This is gonna take many years to To redo this. Alright, let's talk about some good news for a moment because this is all this is all bit scary. Okay. You were a South by Southwest earlier this year and you said something really interesting about competition.

8:16 obviously the the sort of the the the elephant in the room, so to speak, when we talk about E Vs in the US is Tesla because it it's the biggest player, right? Even though they've had some challenges lately. When you spoke at South by Southwest, you talked about the importance of having more choice for consumers, right? And you've always been uh every time we've had you go on the show, you've always been super supportive of Tesla and and an admirer of what they do and all electric car man manufacturers. But you really want to see an even more competitive E V landscape, which is a bit counterintuitive, right? Because you're you're trying to capture market share. Boy, I I love this question.

8:52 There's almost an obsession. I'd say Of trying to find A way to pit. different efforts of electrification against one another.

9:00 And This incorrect view that there's going to be a single winner and for one to someone to win, everyone else has to lose. And So if we want to see electrification grow from eight percent to a hundred percent. Customers need lots of choices.

9:14 And the lack of choice Is fifty ish percent market share. 'Cause they have two great products, the model three and the model Y are great products. Yeah.

9:25 But Not everybody wants those form factors, that design, that look, that brand. And so We need to have an equivalent level of diversity of choice that we have on the combustion side. And so Course we we're trying to help with that with R two.

9:40 And R three and you can imagine R four, R five as as we continue to build out the portfolio. But for for us as an industry, we need Rivan to be successful, Tesla to be successful, GM to be successful, Ford to be successful. For that reason, we were really excited about the partnership we put together with Volkswagen Group. Yeah, you just you signed a a partnership with Volkswagen last I think November, and they're gonna integrate your technology in their vehicles. Yeah, yeah, we did a there's a five point eight billion dollar software licensing deal.

10:07 Which is awesome. But it allows our software stack and our electronics that we've developed in house to be deployed across A wide range of brands, wide range of products. And our hope is to help

10:19 create more really interesting, highly compelling EVs. Yeah, across Brands like Porsche and Audi and Of course, VW Brands within their group.

10:28 And therefore give customers choice and therefore help drive eight percent uh Twenty percent and twenty percent to fifty percent eventually. Yeah, get to a hundred percent. RJ, let's take some calls. We've got callers here who Definitely are interested in hearing your advice. Let's bring our first caller. Um please tell us your name and where you're calling from and a little bit about your business. Welcome.

10:49 Yes, hi, my name is Ashley Vetter. And my business is called Fetters Organic Ice Cream. Which is located in San Clemente. California and it is a gluten free, dairy free No refined sugar.

11:04 Ice cream sandwiches. And pints. And we fund Parkinson's research one scoop at a time. Wow. Ashley, thanks for calling in Vetter's Ice Cream. Um so You are a uh basically like paleo friendly ice cream, I guess. Uh you don't use refined sugars, dairy free, gluten free, soy free. So I'm assuming this is like coconut milk you're using and Yes. And what kind of sweeteners are you using? Dates.

11:28 And organic maple syrup, and we are organically certified as well. You said something which you don't often hear in the same breath as ice cream, but it's also Funding Parkinson's research, tell me that part of what you're doing. So my husband was diagnosed with Parkinson's And while we were on his journey

11:47 of working with a nutritionist to have a clean gut connecting to a better brain. I did a whole thirty challenge with a group of friends. And two months into Eating Completely clean. We cheated.

12:01 Took our three kids. Young kids to frozen yogurt and walked out with belly aches. And I had an epiphany and it was there needs to be a healthy ice cream out there a Place where people can go and enjoy and get ice cream, whether you're fighting cancers, neurological diseases, or just like to be healthy. We have teamed up with the Michael J. Fox Foundation. Awesome. I have raised a total of

12:25 Um, six hundred and fifty thousand for Team Fox and their names are on all of our packaging. And Here we are. Here's fetters and Now we're in stores and we have our own shop. Wow, congrats How many stores are you in right now?

12:39 Right now we're in fifty six stores, but we got accepted to fifty more, but I don't know how to get. There. And and even bigger than that. We even got some big guys. And give me a sense of where what your revenue is w were sales last year. Okay, sales last year were almost five hundred thousand.

12:57 Great, congrats. That's awesome. And What is your question for us today? You were me and I'm just starting to grow and get Bigger and More stores are accepting me, more stores want me and

13:09 Even Costco has my sandwiches right now. They're tasting them, they like them. They'd like for me to do a road show but How do I scale? How do I scale this? What what what is your advice? Well first I should say

13:22 Looking at your products looks amazing. So I'm I'm uh I'm plant based. And love ice cream, but you know you don't Th there's not a lot of great plant based ice cream choices. So I I will I did not know about this until now, so I'll have to check it out. I'm excited.

13:39 But I mean I I think the the really encouraging thing here is you clearly have Customers are trying it, loving the product. And so there's like that early product market fit. You have something that That's working and people love.

13:53 And so then the question of i as you think about whether you s how and whether you scale Yeah. what are you looking for if if you want to scale to be Like a very large company you'll you'll you have you thought about bringing outside capital or

14:08 Would you prefer to to grow this more organically and bootstrap it and and they're very, very different paths. Hm. I know. I know, and that's what I'm teetering right now. Is trying to figure out

14:19 Which way to go? But also How How do I even raise capital? How do I even I mean I know there's different ways of doing it, but Which way would you suggest? Like what would you do if you were me? I do want this to be worldwide. I want everyone to have fetters in their hand.

14:37 Well, if you want to grow into like a global Uh ice cream company. I think you should begin the process of thinking about what an outside investor would look like. Yeah. And get really honest with yourself as to

14:51 The trade off between today I assume you own a hundred percent of the business you've Yes. Complete control. There's no outside influences. That's both good and bad. It's good in that you don't have outside influences. It's bad and that you

15:03 Some of the discussions and debates and connections I find in in growing and building a business are really benefit from having investors around the table. These are of course people that are gonna be very incentivized for you to be successful. And by definition of

15:20 you know, being investors and deploying capital in many places have lots of relationships and connections. And so I I asked the question given the answer. I I think My advice to you would be to absolutely pursue Finding the right set of investors and

15:33 Okay. It's just I said it quickly, but The right investors is really important. And one of the things that we're going to do. That I I

15:41 It took a long time, but I would say we we were fortunate in in how I built Rivian is We had really aligned investors that allowed us to Iterate that allowed us to Challenge ourselves, we could Have pivots to the strategy.

15:55 But they believed in and invested in in myself as as the founder of the company. But also we're We're patient. And

16:04 We're patient to let us build the brand in the right ways. But Not all investors are gonna have the same point of view is what you want to build and how you wanna build it. So spending the time having those discussions, spending the time meeting with different folks that could

16:18 become part of your business. is really well worth it. And and I think you have to Like have those meetings to get to know the landscape. Yeah. And RJ, you raise b he has raised billions of dollars even before you had anything to to show for, or not? That's scary. You know, actually one of the things that that um This category, particularly plant-based, sugar free, hot really hot right now, right? Non-dairy ice cream, that is a cat that's a growing category within ice cream.

16:43 But at the same time, right now where we are in just in in the sort of the fundraising kind of environment, fundraising for food is hard. We know that we hear that on the show all the time. And and many br businesses won't even get a serious investors looking at them until they hit ten million dollars in sales. But doesn't mean that you aren't in a good position, in part because you've a really differentiated product. There aren't many Uh, there there p certainly other non dairy brands, but not that many that are not using cane sugar, right? That are using maple syrup and date syrup, and those are really interesting expensive ingredients. So that's one thing you've going for. The other thing is

17:22 You may want to start Right now. Right. existing network and seeing if you can raise some money that way, but the other thing to think about is just talking to as many people as you can.

17:37 We did an episode on Telenty ice cream. And that's an interesting story because the founder, Josh Hochschuler He was on the ropes. His brand was collapsing, even though he was making a great product. And he was asking anybody he could if they knew anyone who but might be interested in working with him, and he was eventually connected to two uh entrepreneurs who had sold their business that happened to be Belvedere vodka. And they were interested and they did take a big share of the company, but they helped him scale it into a massive brand that they went on and sold to Unilever. So part of it really your job is

18:13 is to have conversations with absolutely everybody you know. Your your network, you start with your family and you ask people who they know And you You build and build and build and you have as many conversations as you can And eventually you know

18:28 hopefully you will find the person or the people who who want to take this on. Mm-hmm. Good idea. Thank you. Yeah.

18:37 I think I couldn't agree with you more and I I think the other thing is it's hard to Connect the dots. Looking forward. of how all the different relationships you have are gonna ultimately Enable you to find the right investors.

18:50 Obviously looking backwards you can be like, Oh, it went like this, this and this, but So I think having, as guys said, lots of conversations and being open to to meeting new people and to exploring is really really key. Thank you. Great idea.

19:03 It's an awesome idea. It's an awesome it looks like a great product. Thank you. How tell me how is your your your husband's name is Justin, I believe. How is he doing how is he doing? Um, you know, he is Amazing. He's a rock star. He just So positive, keeps going every day. He's had the deep brain stimulation surgery done four times.

19:24 But you know, he's determined to beat it and defide it. And so He's boxing, he works out every day, he's Actually has his own company that

19:35 He's getting off the ground and wanting to sell in a couple of years. So Yeah, he's amazing and Mm. We're a good team, so Amazing. So far.

19:44 We're just staying positive. Yes. Awesome. Congrats on that, actually. Thank you. Yeah, thanks so much for calling in. That's uh Vetters Organic Ice Cream, Ashley Vetter.

19:55 From San Clemente, California. Thanks so much for calling. Thank you so much for having me. Great to meet you. Thank you, bye bye. We're gonna take a quick break, but when we come back, another caller, another question, and another round of advice. I'm Guy Roz and we're answering your questions right here on the advice line on how I built this lab.

20:27 Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz and my guest today is Rivian Founder and CEO R J Scaringe. Uh R J you ready to take another call? Let's bring in our next caller. Hello, welcome to the Vice Line. You're on with RJ Scoringe, founder of Rivian. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business. Hello, guy and RJ. So glad to be on with you guys. Thank you so much. Welcome. My name is Quay Joe, and My last name is Swan Pimpong. I'm the founder of Crated Glory. And Crafted Glory is a handmade furniture brand. That crafts. Heirloom quality hardwood furniture that blends African artistry with Scandinavian design.

21:10 I love it. Welcome to the show, Quejo. Um so you are based in North Carolina. Yes, I'm based in Asheville, North Carolina. Which is a fur uh sort of traditionally a furniture manufacturing Right, region, North Carolina, and still a lot of furniture is made there. I'm looking at b uh images of your work and it's so

21:29 Cool,'cause it i the idea of African artistry and Scandinavian design. It seems like hard to imagine, but when you look at it, it you makes perfect sense. You're like, Oh my God, that's exactly what it is. How did this business start? Tell me a little bit about it. Oh yeah, well when I moved to Asheville and moved into my home I didn't have any furniture. I was a a bachelor recently out of college, no furniture. And I started looking around for pieces that were interesting, but couldn't find what I really wanted. So One day I decided to try my hand at making some end tables and they were crude.

22:04 But I fell in love with the process. So over the course of Many Months and weeks I built out my three hundred square foot garage. Started making pieces. Eventually.

22:16 Made some jewelry. That I listed on Etsy. And that started my Etsy journey. Over time people started requesting larger and larger pieces. And that brings me

22:27 coffee tables, dining tables, and ship them all over the country. Wow, it's amazing. So this is your this is your now What you do full time? No. And that that's probably the reason why

22:40 I uh having a conversation with you guys. I have been working a full time corporate job. Since two thousand and twelve, I'm a fabrication supervisor. at a manufacturing company. And All the while I've been working on building my brand.

22:55 So I've been juggling both for the past about eight years. Is your background in in engineering? By e by chance? Yes. I uh went to Carnegie Mellon University. for a bachelor's in mechanical and master's in civil and environmental engineering. Wow, right up your alley, RJ. Um another engineer on a show. This stuff is amaz so you're doing you're making furniture. Presumably you are the one making it, and then you're also going to

23:23 This other job as a supervisor. Yes. So tell me what your day is like. What's a typical day for you? A typical day starts pretty early, about nine AM, I'm in my studio and work for generally about four hours each day. And then Come home, shower real quick, and head to work. I work second shift. And get off at two AM.

23:44 And the cycle continues. When do you sleep? Not much. God, okay. Lots a lot to dig in there. What's your question for us? Yeah, so my question relates to actually balancing both. My my desire is to build a legacy brand that will endure for many years and make a big impact in the community and the world. And for my family.

24:07 And I'm just at that place where Revenue is not quite enough for me to Do it full time. And I need to do it full time in order to get the revenue to where it needs to be to support me and my family and make the impact I want. So looking for any suggestions on how I can position my brand

24:27 To get to that point. Mm. How you can essentially leave your job and do this full time. Whew.

24:35 R J that's a that's a lot of pressure. No. What's the Are you demand constrained or supply constrained? If you had more time you could conceivably generate more revenue.

24:45 So is there enough demand that you'd be comfortable leaving your job? Not right now because I essentially What we've been able to make in revenue. Without much investment in marking it all. But

24:59 We've uh proven that people want our products and love what we do and we're on the high end. So really it's just a matter of getting in front of our ideal clients and Spending the time on the marketing side of things.

25:14 Which is where I'm struggling with time. Que Jude, can you give us a sense of what Jamaican sales a year right now? Yeah. We are Bringing in about a hundred eighty eighty thousand. per year. And given your background as a mechanical engineer, I mean your value is very high at a company. So

25:34 I imagine that what you're paid is s significantly more than what y you know, you bring in uh in profit after all said and done. One of the things that I I keep thinking about, you know, we did an episode many years ago with Jim Cook. He's been on the show a few times, the founder of Boston Beer Company And he has a sort of very I think important idea about how to live your life. And he says

25:56 You know, if you're gonna take the leap, you want to think about whether it's dangerous or scary. And a lot of things like like leaving your job are scary. But the question is, is it dangerous, right? Is it more dangerous to remain in your job and then wake up at sixty, seventy or sixty five years old and say, You know, I wasted my life. I didn't I didn't pursue this thing that I really wanted to pursue. And the the answer is it it sometimes can be more dangerous. On the flip side, if you listen to that episode Jim kept his day job for a long time. He worked a Boston Consulting Group.

26:25 And at nights and on weekends he really learned how to make beer. He looked at beer bottling plants. He really kind of did his market analysis and research, you know, for at least a year before he was ready to go. You've been doing this, as you said, for about nine years now, I think. And so it is a significant risk, right? If you were to completely walk away from your job, imagine d would you have for example health insurance? Would there be another source of health insurance? I would have to

26:54 Find another source for that. That's right. Mm-hmm. one of the things you could do is save like crazy. and take the leap and know that if it didn't work out, you're eminently hireable because of your your background as a mechanical engineer.

27:10 At the same time you have seniority probably and you know, you will probably continue to climb up the ranks and at some point maybe recruited by another company. and and earn more money. So it is there's a risk here, right? Because I think your business is based on your designs and your work, right? I is there a way you can scale what you're doing? Hm. Yeah, well, yes, it is based on my designs, but we do get c clients who ask us to make uh their designs and they'll come to us with drawings or or specs and we'll do that as well.

27:45 As far as scaling I Right now we're we're a small batch. company and we pride ourselves on being able to Invest the the time into making

27:56 Call the pieces. with a very close relationship with our client. So Yeah. I don't know how far I wanna go with with scaling it, but definitely to a point where I'm not hands on with every single detail with the business. I I'd like to get to a point where I have a team That can create

28:15 My designs. as one part of the business and the other part is I'm focused on the very high end pieces, like art pieces. Collector pieces. So very high-end clients will come and say, Oh, this is a piece made by Quajo himself. And then the other part of the business is running. We're making our standard pieces for clients.

28:36 Yeah, in starting a business, there's so many unknowns and I look back now. I was just talking to somebody on the team the other day about X are asking me what was it like in the beginning when it was just you? And I was like, you know, I didn't really I didn't focus a lot on how it was gonna fail. Which sound crazy, but I

28:53 I thought about how I could make it work. But there's so many ways. Like Like it. An infinite number of ways one can imagine the business not working.

29:04 But once I made the decision I was going to go build it. And then every every day d whether the the the barrier was large or small, it was just how do we make progress. And so I think the question I would ask

29:17 I'd ask here it's just Are you ready for that? like leaned in commitment. There are gonna be days you're like, Oh shit. Like This this isn't going as I hoped.

29:27 Um But you're you know, very employable. Uh We have lots of openings here at Rivian. So I mean there's you're very employable. Uh

29:36 And you're at a point in life where it sounds like you can take this jump. You're already working around the clock. Uh you're you're Up in the morning. right away working and you're working till you said two AM. So Uh

29:48 you s clearly have the stamina to to work really hard at something. So I I mean I You I y I'm biased, but I I I would I would ask you, you know, why not? Mm. I'm gonna disagree here, R J. I think you gotta be a little more cautious, Quay Joe. How many kids do you have?

30:05 We have a six month old. Okay. Do you is it possible case, I might be able we might be able to split the difference here. Is there a world where you're company where you currently work would be willing to give you a leave of absence, like a six month leave of absence. Okay.

30:20 No, I ha I haven't explored that my role uh is More hands-on. I I directly manage my team. So Not too sure if that's possible, but definitely something worth considering. But you know, I've realized that the value that I've gained in

30:38 actually doing both, even though I really desire to be able to Cut ties and focus on craft of glory. And I think Crafty Glory really needs that from me, but at the same time Yeah. I've gotten to really sharpen my skills of of standardizing processes, uh manufacturing processes. All of that carries over into what I did. Yes.

31:02 And so I'm very grateful for that. But Also realized that I want craft the glory to be a legacy brand and I can't really do that. Part time.

31:12 Okay. I think but You know, by the grace of God I've gotten this far and I'm hopeful that it's going to go much much farther. So take Guy's point, and with a six month old, I can appreciate that. Uh starting Ruby and I have kids was a lot easier sleeping on couches and things like that. But um

31:29 Have you thought about if you lined up like a significant customer or enough revenue Well let's say you had A year of runway of revenue and work. But You could then

31:41 Like look at that as the The line through which you'd have to get through. So you know, okay, I'm gonna go build enough relationships with enough Design firms. That locks up business for for twelve months and then gives you the comfort to make the leap.

31:55 Yes, yes. That's actually something my wife and I have talked about frequently. And we've taken some steps in that direction, one of which is we're actually going to be at ICFF. next month, international contemporary furniture fair. Oh nice. Yeah, nice. And we're we're really hopeful that Oh some good partnerships will come through that. And actually this year we've applied to many grants. And we've received

32:18 Many of them. And that is just helping to build that runway, as you said. That makes a lot of sense. And if there was a way to Have some kind of contract.

32:29 With the that really gives you this year long runway, then in that case I would say yes, take the leap for sure. And it may be that in the meantime, m you may want to pause building furniture for a few months and try and focus on seeing if you can develop a partnership. And maybe the trade show is is where you find that partner. Hm.

32:48 Yeah, that that's really great advice. Yeah. You know, you said something, which I just would double down on. So I started a car company. I love to work on cars. Mm-hmm. And one of my early learnings. Was in the beginning.

33:02 I spent a lot of time designing parts. And It feels really good because it's the thing you enjoy and it's maybe the thing that initially drew you to start the business. But I realized after a couple of months I was like, Well the company will never scale. If I'm sitting at a laptop.

33:17 Designing parts all day. Mm. And so I I quickly realized that So important.

33:22 Like For the company to be successful, I had to go focus on other things which were building relationships and bringing in investors and I think There's a really Similar.

33:32 Um dynamic here where As much as you love being in the shop every day. probably the best thing you can do is to go build a really large book of business so you can Have the comfort to

33:43 to scale the business pro you know, as as you're as you've talked about here. And bring other people in to do it.'Cause RJ I mean, your your dream was to build a car company and probably in your dreams the idea was you would be sitting at the drafting table and you'd be designing the car, but you can't do it. Even though you know how to do it. And you've got the background. Forty thousand years, yeah. Yeah. It take a little while. Just like I can't edit this sh I know how to do the editing of the show, but I can't do it. I it would first of all, my producers are much better than me, but I cannot do it, physically do it. So it it makes a lot of sense at some point, Quay Joe, that you're gonna wanna focus on the business side and still oversee the design, but you're gonna want other people working for you. Mm mm. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And we've gotten a taste of that. We have one part time employee and I I see

34:27 Just with him. But the value in being able to step back Uh assign work to him. And then I can do other things. So that makes a lot of sense and I appreciate that advice.

34:39 Quay Joe and Ping Pong, the company's called Crafted Glory, and mainly I think you sell on Etsy and you got a website. Congrats. Good luck. Keep us posted. Thank you so much. Good luck. Thank you. Wow, some really s cool stuff. Yeah, super cool stuff.

34:54 And I think it I mean it it is true. Like RJ, you are an engineer. This is what you like spent your whole life training for and at the end of the day, you can't really be in the weeds on the engineering side or the design side. You just can't. Yeah. One of the things in in growing and building a business, you have to really Recognize what are the things that you can uniquely do for the business that others can't?

35:16 Especially as a founder as a CEO. And then the things that others can do really well. You shouldn't be doing them. And also things that you may really enjoy, but others can do well. Maybe you let yourself have it every now and then as like a dessert, but thinking

35:29 very honestly around where you spend your time is important. Alright, we're gonna take another quick break, but we'll be right back with one more collar. Stay with us, I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to the advice line right here on how I built this lab. Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Roz, and today I'm taking your calls with RJ Scaringe. Um RJ Let's get back into it and uh take another call. Sure.

36:15 Hello, welcome to the advice line. You are on with RJ Scringe, founder of Rivian. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business. Hi. Um I'm Robert Button. I'm calling from Vancouver, Canada. And my business is Zoa Engineering. So at Zo Engineering we design and build products

36:34 Help people move to the back country. And our flagship product is the PL one. It's a portable Rope toe system. So it's like a ski lift that fits in your backpack. I have so many questions for Rob. Welcome to the show. Thank you for calling in. I think you have landed on the perfect advisor here because Rob, you must be an engineer, first of all. Yeah.

36:54 Yeah, I'm a mechanical engineer as well. Okay. So let's dig into this. You have built a product From what I understand, that allows you to Ski and then tow yourself back. Back up. Explain how how does it work. It's really designed for backcountry skiing, so

37:10 The way it works is When you're back in your ski, normally you're using skins. To climb that first. Yeah. So it's obviously a lot of work, but In this case you still have to climb the first time. But when you get to the top of your run.

37:22 You can set an anchor that Either the tree or we provide a snow anchor. And uh you lay out your line. A longer run. You lay it out along the road. Okay. Yeah, we use a rope bag. So you kinda ski down with the rope bag the first time.

37:35 And when you get to the bottom, you leave that loose in the bottom and the device attaches to the rope. Uh you pull throttle and it So it toes you back up. So how long is the rope? So with the standard package we provide like a thousand feet. But you can link up multiple lines if you just want to have a longer run. So basically for people who do backcountry skiing, you you ski but then you gotta hike back up this way. This allows you to basically

38:00 Ski a thousand feet and get towed back up. Yeah, it's it's basically like a self tailing winch is what you call it. How did this start? The whole thing started. I think that's it's ultimately

38:12 Something that a lot of backcountry skiers or a lot of skiers in general, kind of think how great it would be to have your own lift, have your own private mountain. And I think that's kind of the route for this. I was kind of fortunate enough to have some familiarity with Prox Motors and controllers and the technology behind it and

38:30 is able to kinda work it out and realize that this is a feasible thing to do. And kinda went from there. Uh what's the question you brought for us? Yeah, so our product is obviously quite unique. We're kind of the only ones on the market with this. And we have a lot of excitement about it, but

38:48 No. That many people that are really willing to commit to it just yet. And so my question is How do we go from early adopters to a more mainstream audience.

38:59 For our customer base. All right, fair enough. R J we can answer the question eventually, but do you have any questions for Rob first? I guess just as context, I love to ski and Just a few years ago. I started

39:12 trying backcountry skiing, which is uh Wonderfully fun. But as you said, yeah, y you can only do so many runs, I guess it's a stamina question with how much you can skin up and down. So I understand the product. Concept. You're thinking about it. It's it takes

39:27 In terms of like product market scale. It takes a part of a sport. So it takes skiing and backcountry skiing so it's a niche sport within skiing. And then it takes that even further down to say someone just wanna do m multiple runs. And so Like my first question would be are there ways

39:43 To broaden the Portfolio. To have other offerings that could appeal to someone who's maybe not backcountry skiing. other other pr like Anstory products you could add to it, or or if you're only selling to folks who are backcountry skiing other

39:56 Other ways to create more attachment for other things into your Portfolio. Yeah. I guess to start I will say I think the market for like backcountry skiing is growing often underestimated. A lot of our customers backcountry ski, by the way. They'll take their Rivian and then they'll

40:12 Go from there. Yeah. And and you know, you do see a a number of viable companies that That are Really focused on backcountry skiing products. But uh

40:21 In our case. There are alternative markets for us, especially for us where No, we already have customers who are Not necessarily back under skiers, but will have a property that they want to set up with the lift. And this is like sort of a very low cost way to have your own lift. And we also have one interest.

40:39 But we haven't really broken into a number of kind of business oriented or government oriented applications so like ski patrol As well as uh search and rescue. And even the military. So We do have like a number of alternative markets with just this product.

40:55 Yeah, yeah. So skiing I and I think you're right that Backcountry is probably underaccounted for. It's an awesome sport. How do you think about your company from a brand point of view? Do you think of it as a Backcountry skiing.

41:08 Branded company or D. Because if it's a towing company, there's a really broad set of applications uh from Like hunting to logging to pulling jet skis up on the beach to Yeah, our our mission statement right now is that we're we build products that help people move through the backcountry. So our focus is

41:28 You know, portable applications where we can move people through mountains. Factively. And I think that's a lot broader than just skiing. And we know that can also encompass downhill skiing without the backcountry element. As well as a whole host of other applications, including stuff like hunting.

41:42 And where we get tons of people who ask can I Hollow Buck three. Yeah, exactly. Oh yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. The the general outdoor world, but as like as a tool that can be used in the outdoors and is highly portable. That's kind of what we're we're looking at. Rob, a couple of quick questions. Tell me a little bit about your revenue. What do you expect to do this year, or maybe w what did you do last year?

42:05 So this year we're expecting uh About two hundred grand in revenue. So we're still quite small. And how much is it does the product cost? Uh so it's seventeen hundred US dollars for the complete package that includes the rope and everything in the So it's it's expensive, but a lot of people doing backcountry skiing are paying a lot of money anyway, you know, one of these caterpillars to take them up or something or some people do helicopters. And it's an investment. You make the investment and then you can do it.

42:31 One of the things that that I'm I'm curious about, because you asked how do you get more people to to sort of try this out or to be aware of it. I mean, there are a number of ways I l I was looking at your Instagram and you have about n uh twenty thousand followers on there, um, which is a great start and and I know you're putting videos out there. But really, I mean I wonder whether You you have tried out, for example, like pop ups, where people can try it for free. at resorts, right? Have you tried going to resorts and and offering people an opportunity to just try it, or maybe working with ski rental shops to see people wanted to just rent it for an afternoon?

43:07 It's still something we're kind of working on logistics wise for our product. It's uh I think a lot of the resorts are still a little hesitant to let us use it as a resort. And uh so but what we've done is a lot more Impromptu kind of stuff. Just the last week of If we run across people while we're skiing, we'll we'll give them let them try out the product. But it's definitely a plan in the future to get more people to try it out because we do get

43:31 Great reactions whenever Anyone gets to use it. RJ, I know that you did not have to use celebrities necessarily to sell Rivians, but I did notice during the Olympics last year, Martha Stewart was like on NBC talking about how she was so excited to get her Rivian. Like she's waiting for a Rivian to come, which is you know, I mean she just did that. She just said that, right? Which is a big deal'cause she's a tastemaker. And I don't think you guys use celebrity endorsements, but but Rob, I wonder whether I mean in your case You know, there are there have to be famous backcountry skiers out there.

44:01 Have you tried reaching out to some of them? Yeah, and we've just we're just dipping our toes in that right now. And it's something we are really hoping to kinda launch into more next season. Mm-hmm. But I think from my perspective it's Part of this is about building trust in the product and and showing that It's the real deal. So

44:20 Yeah, it's a big part of our strategy going forward. Yeah, I think that The idea of getting exposure to it this is a product that Yeah. so naturally links to exposure because the people using it won't take photographs of using it and say hi.

44:35 Yeah, instead of doing four thousand feet of elevation, I did twenty five thousand feet. You know, and I only had to do four of it on my own, kinda thing. So I think there's a real opportunity to tell those stories and find some people that get excited about it. I agree. I agree with that, Roger. You know, we did we did an episode on Whoop, the Whoop Band, you know, the wrist band that um tracks you know all these things in your body.

44:58 And the guy who founded it, Will Ahmed, he it's amazing how he launched this thing. He got it on the wrist of Michael Phelps and LeBron James without ever paying them. In fact, Lebron James and Michael Phelps paid him. to use it. They paid for a subscription and the way he did it was by going to their trainers. You know, it's hard to get something on Michael Phelps's or J or LeBron James's wrist, but if you can get to their trainer The tr and the trainer's using it.

45:23 he's the one who's gonna say, Hey, you really need to use this thing. And I wonder whether you can get this in the hands of ski instructors or you know, uh race team coaches, as you mentioned, ski patrol. Also p people who are guides. I mean, everybody I know who does backcountry skiing almost always goes with a guide. Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah, that's great. All all great options. And I think something we're

45:46 Have to push for going forward. R J any any any last minute thoughts for Rob on on how he could Get this out of the world. I mean it'd be your a lot of the things we said here, which I'm I'm sure you've thought about some as well, Rob, but I do think one of the things I'd I'd spend some time Reflecting hard on is

46:06 What's the vision for the business? And what are the details you're willing to be flexible on? And what are the things that you really are fixed on? And The reason I raise that is The technology and the product you're developing have lots of other applications as we you know quickly

46:22 Brainstormed here. And They're You're creating a few different surfaces through which you could be successful. may be really helpful, but but again it's that you have to really reflect to say

46:33 Does that fit the overall vision? And I th I think this idea of like Movement in the backcountry fits really nicely. Yes. Uh is it broadens it and it suddenly you have appeal across a few different things.

46:46 And then the question is just how much effort you put into Some of those different applications of your product technology. The company's called Zoa Engineering and wow, what a cool product, the PL One. Your own personal ski lift, Rob Button. Congrats, thanks for calling in.

47:02 Thanks so much for having me. Yeah, great tweet, Rob. Do you backcountry ski as well? I I'm too s I'm too nervous. I'm very cautious. I I love skiing and I'm a very cautious skier. I ski everything but very cautiously. You know, once you hit fifty, you don't want to fall and break something. Because in your added commission, my wife tore her A C L

47:20 Last time we went skiing. So she's at a commission for a yeah, so there you go. Yeah. RJ, before we let you go, I wanna ask you one final question, um, which is if you were able to go back and give your younger self some advice. or sort of an observation or encouragement. What might you say now? What do you know now that would have been helpful or or encouraging back then? Well

47:43 There's so many things. I'd say there's two things I'd focus on. And there they're things I would have probably said then, but maybe a little less Emphatically. One is Make sure you have the right people around you. Yeah. It sounds so obvious and it's probably a

47:56 It's an answer you'd see in any any question on how to build a business, but But it's even more important. Than it even says in all the business books. It's so critical. In terms of your energy, in terms of how you find yourself being inspired, challenging um you know the people that are challenging you. So I I think that's really important.

48:14 And for me As a first time founder and also as somebody who's learning how to run a business. Knowing when to break those relationships to say, Hey, look. This isn't gonna work. We need to bring somebody else in for this role.

48:26 That took some time for me to develop and Now I'm it's so understood. But In the early days it it wasn't as immediately obvious that sometimes I I held on to relationships longer than I should have. That'd be the first thing and then the second thing.

48:39 Being able Like In the early stages of business, the flexibility that you have To adjust the strategy. is such a strength.

48:49 And it it's actually big companies don't have this flexibility. And I think in the beginning maybe you Hold on to an idea. as precious and wanna protect it because so many people are telling you that your idea or your business isn't gonna work that It's like fight or flight, you decide I'm gonna fight to s to preserve the idea.

49:07 Yeah. It certainly in Rivian's case, a lot of the the specifics of what we thought we were gonna do in the beginning Weren't the right answer. And once we started to really realize that and have comfort in The strength of being able to adjust our plans, not to say throw our vision or our mission out the window.

49:26 But to say we can be Yeah, we can be flexible in the tactics. It really changed and and then also what are the things we're not gonna be flexible on? Like for us was certain aspects of vertical integrating to our technology stack. But Like if I was making what we first thought we were gonna make, the

49:42 the company wouldn't be here. And so Yeah, it's interesting just having these discussions today because I do think for every founder, it's a really important question. What are the things that really do matter? And then If Those other things can be flexible. Like

49:54 Yeah, should they change, should you approach it differently. RJ, thanks so much. Yeah. Yeah, this is great. Good see you guy.

50:03 That's Rivian founder and CEO RJ Scarynge. And by the way, if you haven't heard RJ's original How I Built This Episode, you've gotta go back and check it out. We'll put a link to it in the podcast description. And here's one of my favorite moments from that interview. One of the things that is Interesting with electrification is it completely changes Performance that we previously accepted, so our our pickup.

50:26 I was on the PCH uh the Pacific Coast Highway and California this is maybe three, four weeks ago. I pulled up till late, it was early morning. And a brand new Ferrari pulled up right next to me and the guy looks over me, I look over at him and said, Hey, you wanna see what we can do here. And so We both accelerate quickly off the line and I

50:43 out accelerated by quite a margin. And we get to the next light and he says to me, I can't believe My Fry just got Roasted. Buy a pickup.

50:54 Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. And by the way, please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free at gyros.com or on Substack. And of course, if you're working on a business and you like to be on this show, send us a one-minute message that tells us a little bit about your business and the questions or issues you are. currently facing because we would love to try and help you solve them. You can send us a voice memo at hibt at id.wondery.com or call us at 1800-433-1298. You can leave a message there and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And by the way, we'll put all of this in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Iman Maani with music composed by Ramte Nerablouhi. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Neil Rauch. Our production team also includes Alex Chung, Casey Herman, Elaine Coates, Chris Massini, Catherine Seifer, Carrie Thomson, Sam Paulson, JC Howard, and Neva Grant. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to the advice line on how I built this lab.

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