Advice Line with Sarah LaFleur of M.M. LaFleur

0:06 Hello and welcome to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show. who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Leave us a one minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you like help with. Alright, let's get to it. Joining me this week is Sarah LaFleur. She's the founder and CEO of the women's clothing brand MM LaFleur. Uh, Sarah, it's great to have you back on the show. Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here.

0:46 Oh, we're excited to have you. You've been on the show twice before, actually. First time was in February 2020 to tell us the story of building. M. LaFleur, and like many founders we've had on the show, you started the brand because you had a problem to solve, which was you were a corporate consultant. And just uh too many clothing options didn't really fit in with what with what you want to wear and that that of course was back in twenty eleven and then Along the way you built this awesome brand, but then you had some challenges, especially during COVID. Um, and we're gonna get an update about what happened, but it's a great episode for anybody who hasn't heard it. We'll put a link to it in the show notes.

1:23 Um so before we get to our callers, I was hoping to just kinda catch up. Tell tell us a little bit about how things have been going since you were last on the show. Oh my gosh, well I feel like I have lived Ten lives. Um and I think We know last time I was on your show.

1:40 I think I was seven months pregnant and now my kids are five and a half. So um yeah, it's been a wild five and a half years. And yes, like COVID was horrible for my business. You know, our revenue in 2020 was down 60% from 2019. We had to go through three rounds of layoffs. It was so painful. We had to close every single one of our stores and then reopened some of them and then we actually opened some new stores as well. So um, you know, we we got the business to profitability in twenty twenty two uh again and Um have just been steadily growing since and It feels like in many ways I'm

2:19 I feel Lucky that I I Got to have a second shot. Um at it. You know, I really thought I was gonna lose it all. Um

2:28 And it's been This amazing experience of getting to build and rebuild the brand. And Hopefully doing it smarter the second time around.

2:38 Yeah, I remember in our conversation, um w the thing that r really struck me and and I think was so innovative about this brand is the idea of a uniform. And I think about you a lot because Anyone who's seen me do anything live or in public knows that I have a uniform. It's it's a it's a blue blazer and and and sort of um greenish trousers and a white shirt. It's just what I wear where I feel comfortable. I have uh fifteen different blue blazers. And uh it might sound boring to some, but it but that's like What I feel best in I feel and and the the concept of M M La Flor

3:10 was to create a uniform. Obviously it wasn't just b it was like a a much more a broader line of of of offerings. But that was the idea. Behind it. Now You've expanded it where it's like it's still very professional, it's still very elegant, but

3:27 Um but it's not just for the office. Yeah, for sure. I mean I think f for the majority of You know, white collar professionals There's some virtual work mixed in with just how we work these days. So we have a a really healthy mix of kind of more casual, we call it power casual clothing. So it's like it's a blazer and denim. Like that's that is like the way a lot of professional women dress these days. And

3:50 You know, jackets are now The power item And I think it just it makes sense if you think about her lifestyle, like She might go to the office and then you know. go to pick up her kids from school, or she might go out for dinner with her friends and

4:05 And to be able to just like take off that jacket. You know, it helps you go s pretty seamlessly from professional to casual. And now whereas like I think a lot of women would have said like Oh, I have a rack full of dresses. I think a lot of women have a rack full of jackets.

4:21 Hm. Um I think we're talking about women sort of roughly late twenties to sort of l mid to late fifties. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, we have almost equal age distribution, which is like one of the things I'm I'm most proud about. in our brand, like we don't really particularly skew young or mature or You know, I think the professional woman, like the way she's dressing when she's twenty seven is not all that different from how she's dressing when she's forty seven. Yeah. Um, hopefully she has more disposable income and she's able to invest in in more like quality pieces and and things that she'll wear for the long term. But we really

4:55 We we like to say it, you know, in M M, it's a it's a psychographic, not a demographic. Huh. That's really, really interesting. Um All right, you ready to take our first call? Can't wait. This is so exciting. All right, let's do it. Um let's bring in our first caller. Welcome to the advice line. You are on with Sarah LaFleur. Founder of M LaFleur, please tell us your name, uh where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.

5:19 Hi, Sarah and Guy. My name is David Rustiano. I'm calling in from Point Pleasant Beach, New Jersey. And I am the founder of a company called Sore. We make muscle recovery products, all natural, uh non invasive ways to Add wellness and self care to your daily routine without adding much time or trouble to it. Okay, thanks for calling in, David. So tell me what your product is. Is it m uh a muscle

5:42 recovery what like like theraguns? What are you selling? A lot more low tech than Theraguns. Um we actually the our hero product is called Sorce Oap and it's a physical therapy tool shaped bar of ultra hard analgesic all natural soap. Okay. Um, and it's hand stamped into a muscle scraping tool. You hang it up in your shower on a suction cup holder so it stays high and dry and germ free. And every time you get in the shower after a run or a Pilates workout or just a long day of work, You scrape your muscles. I usually start with the back of my neck and work my way down and I focus on my calves and my Achilles in those areas.

6:16 This is like a like a fascia kind of thing w right like loosening your fascia. Is that is that the idea? Yep, it is. It's it's works on soft tissue and fascia. Um, and we originally created it with athletes in mind. Um But it's really it's straddled into the the wellness and healthcare space. Uh we work with a lot of physical therapists. My co founder is a doctor of physical therapy. So And when did you when did you start the business? uh like so many businesses we started during Covid. My men's soccer leagues were shut down here in New Jersey. So I needed something to keep my mind and body occupied. So I went for a long run and my hip flexor was sore.

6:52 So when I got home, I jumped in the shower like normal and I saw a bar of Irish Spring in the soap dish that my wife had just put in there. And it has a little bit of a curve on the bottom and it reminded me of the grass and tool that my doctor, my physical therapist, who's now my business partner, used on my calf. when I had a calf strain. So I started to scrape my hip flexor and it felt great. And I worked my way down to my my quads and my calves and my Achilles. And it was an immediate feeling of of relief and recovery. So

7:19 Being the designer that I am, I jumped out of my shower and I ran into my studio and I started drawing logos and uh Google, you know, doing a Google search for Real therapeutic massage soap. Um, and I realized that there was there was nothing like it out there. So I uh wrote myself a little poor man's patent. And then a few days later I called my partner Doctor Dan and uh he was interested.

7:39 And we've we've been running ever since. Nice. Okay. And this is sold uh through your website or do you sell in stores or wh where where where where can people buy it? Sure. Uh we we do sell it at SourceSoap.com. Most I would say maybe eighty five to ninety percent of our sales are direct to consumer. But we work with a lot of physical therapists and forward thinking chiropractors and um athletic trainers. Um, and they do sell it in their offices. We actually just um landed a deal to get our non-soap tool. Um after we realized that people really embraced this idea of doing, you know, do it yourself muscle scraping, we made a lightweight tool that people could fly with, run with, travel with. It's not metal, it's TSA approved and it's a very lightweight

8:17 You know, we have a lot of people that run marathons and they'll keep it in their vest. while they're running and they'll treat their muscles right there on the fly. So We released that. Um and we were in vitamin shops. So that's our biggest retailer to date. And how how are you guys doing in sales? It's been a wild ride. Um, we when we originally started, you know, we did 16,000 in sales, then the next year we did 33, and then the year after that we did 120. Um

8:40 Um and then we were lucky enough to uh be on a show called Shark Tank, which was really uh An amazing experience. And we did uh about four hundred and forty thousand that year. Wow. Um Then we came back down to Earth a little bit in twenty twenty five and we're back down to about a hundred and five thousand. So Got it. Yeah. So it's pretty it's we got that had that shark tank spike and now things have kind of leveled up. Okay, before we dive in further, what is your question for us?

9:04 Sure. So Sarah, uh listening to your episode of the podcast while I was running, there were so many touch points that I felt I could connect with you and ask you about. Um our moms being a big inspiration in our life was one of them. But the question that I I centered on because I think it's a big issue for a lot of founders in our spot. Whether you're successful or not. We all have that little bit of self doubt. So even as our companies and our ideas start to work. Self doubt never disappears. It just gets a little quieter.

9:32 How did you learn to trust your instincts and keep moving when you weren't always sure you were right? Great question. Sarah LaFleur, uh I wanna bring you in Uh here for this, obviously. Self doubt. I will just say from the get go I uh

9:46 I'm when I have founders Who I meet. Who have no self doubt? Those are the ones that worry me. Um, I was gonna say

9:55 Crack a joke like self done, I don't know what you're talking about, but I was gonna say uh it's not a little bit. I I feel like managing self doubt is Like So much of the job. And

10:07 I think managing your own psyche is the number one CEO job. Yeah. I started working with this um mental strength coach last year. Um

10:20 Primarily he you know, he teach meditation and we also do a you know, a bunch of other things. journal is is uh one of them. But It is the first Time in My

10:33 Cash. fourteen years of running the business where I'm finding some relief. And uh We know we've we've been through hell and back. Um

10:45 Just like I'll tell you in like the past five to six years, obviously we had COVID, which almost took out my business, but then we survived that. And then twenty twenty three, we had Silicon Valley Bank, which we banked with. That was the scariest seventy-two hours. Um, but then in 2024, my lender went under and um we had like an urgent capital call essentially, and that actually was probably the closest I've ever come to losing my business. And Every single one of those moments I really

11:13 dealt with like enormous self doubt and like Like, how the hell did I end up here and what am I doing? And I really wish I could just like throw in the towel and call it quits, but for some reason I can't. Um I love it too much. Um.

11:28 I feel this I feel the same way. I feel like without the business There would be less purpose. In my life. to overcome those challenges and overcome those emotional hurdles like

11:39 The business has turned into one of my prime motivators to help other people feel better physically makes me feel accomplished mentally and emotionally. That makes sense. That's so beautiful. I mean, yeah, like what more could we ask for, you know, in our lives. Yeah, I I I would double down on on on what you said, Sarah. I mean, I think that this is one of the questions Almost every founder feels and certainly I hope everyone every founder that comes on our show because we do vet them, you know, we want founders who have self doubt to come on the show.

12:09 Uh it's critical, right? It and I think for the most part, it doesn't entirely ever go away, but it it evolves, it becomes easier to manage, right? And and they The trick is like how do I make decisions even when I'm not feeling as confident, right? And and The re like even with with this show I've been doing for ten years, there are m times where I I certainly have self doubt. You know, are we doing the right thing?

12:36 I think that's natural and I think it's important to constantly interrogate how you're doing things. But I think the the way to avoid kind of spiraling into just endless uncertainty at at least in my case, and Sarah, you may have uh a a different take or similar is I look at signals that that actually matter, right? Like Um

12:59 data or feedback or when I interact with people. Um and that is really helpful. And in your case, there are gonna there's gonna be tons of data, right? Like Who's buying this repeatedly and

13:14 Um what's your, you know, your your customer acquisition cost and and You know, what are the conversion rates? And and that's gonna ebb and flow, but it helps to kind of Focus in at least for me when I when I start to really think about the fundamentals. Even when I have times of self doubt, it

13:34 It just I I Find that. leaning on the data, even when it's not always great news, is really helpful because it gives me something to kind of benchmark against. Does that does that make sense? Yeah, totally. And even if it's even if it's a little more anecdotal in our in our case, um, you know, there's fence posts that I can identify in the last few years that That keep me propped up, that get me through those tough times. Like when we go to the Philadelphia marathon, so many people come over, repeat customers, Oh, I used your product.

14:01 I I PR'd I I ran my best marathon time ever, or I got through my training block with less pain. I mean that's such a rewarding interaction. And it was just it it's moments like that, Sarah, that you know, get you through those nights where you're laying in bed going What am I doing, you know, especially in this competitive world that we're all in on social media. Yeah. I mean I first of all You're an athlete, so you're you're kind of

14:24 You're already here, but I think this this idea of like practice it's it's it's all about the practice. And um I will say like For me personally, like meditation, which I uh did not used to do a year ago, has been game changing for me because I

14:41 I like work myself into these spirals at times, and then I I I like need to find the calm within. Like ultimately like no sense of external validation or Or the numbers, like that, that's not really what's gonna lead me to calm. It's like I have to c find the calm within me. And so, you know, that I think that could be anything. It could be a walk in the park. It could be coffee with a friend. It could just be you sitting quietly, like

15:07 Somewhere. But I think it's it's like how can you how can you know that you know everything you you need you have right here. Yep. And h how can you get yourself back to that state? I think that's That's so important. Um, and then I I was gonna say, I feel like David, like

15:23 You you clearly hit on something with this like soap. But I feel like your mission is bigger than that. And I wonder If maybe you could channel some of that energy, not

15:35 into sales and marketing, but maybe it's new product development. Um,'cause I I think you're you're onto a bigger mission about helping athletes take care of themselves. easily and more more affordably. I have some ideas. I I You have some ideas, right. Okay, great.

15:52 I mean the ideas never stop. It's it's it's going through them and and qualifying them, you know, mentally first. And guy, I I wanted to work this in. But you gave me an opportunity. Sara, my closest thing to meditation that I do is I go for a three or five mile run and I listen to this podcast. I mean that's my moment of zen. It's I love that. You've got me through many miles that I didn't want to run. Okay, great. Well I and meditation is awesome. I totally agree when I am consistent, it is a game changer. hiking in the woods. I try to do that a few times a week. I'm lucky to live near the woods. Uh, and uh one more thing, it's a big responsibility, but a dog. I gotta take my dog out for a walk twice a day. Me too.

16:33 Energy release a few times a week. That is like that is really the best. He's he's one of my best buddies, my little dog Teddy. He's been in a lot of our social media. So we have a lot of followers on TikTok that like Tune in just for Teddy. Awesome. Uh David Rostiano, the brand is called Sora. Um thanks so much for calling. Uh good luck.

16:51 Thank you guys. Thank you. Thank you. Uh no, I love those those questions because It's not about like hey, how do I m you know, it's not necessarily about how do I make more money with my business. It's like how do I just

17:04 You know. I is you know, running a business is an emotional roller coaster ride. Running anything is. It's i it's it's really can be really, really hard. on your mental health. Yeah. Uh

17:17 I could not agree more. It's hard because it's hard. And I think sometimes founders need to hear that message. We're like, oh, why can't I just get this right? Look at this other brand having this kind of success, or whatever it is. And You know, it's It's not for the faint of heart. It really isn't, and I think we just have to you know it's not it's an acknowledgement. With yourself, like it's it's hard because it's hard, and you chose the hard path.

17:42 The hard thing about hard things, I think that's the name of the book. Oh Ben Horowitz, yeah. Ben Horwitz. Yeah. That's right. He has a he has a a a chapter where he basically says like the the best COs are the ones that didn't give up. Uh So you know, I I take it to heart, and I think um all founders need to hear that every now and then.

18:04 We're gonna take a quick break, but when we come back, another caller, another question, and another round of advice. I'm Guy Raz, and we're answering your questions right here on the advice line on how I built this lab. Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz, and today I'm taking your calls with Sarah LaFleur, founder and CEO of MM LaFleur, and let's bring our next caller. Welcome to the advice line you're on. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business. Hi Guy and Sarah. My name's Marnie and I'm calling from a little coastal town on the east coast in Australia. My business is called Tic Sox.

18:53 which are fun socks with built-in tick protection. I've been working on it for over a year and it finally launched last month. Awesome, Marnie, welcome to the show. So you are in Australia, Tick Sox. These are socks that protect your you from ticks, so tell me how they work. So they have built in promethrin, which is factory bonded. I

19:16 license um an existing textile technology. And it lasts through seventy wash versus the DIY methods that um outdoorsy people like hikers are used to doing, which lasts about six washes. Right. So like when I spray DEET on my socks or something, I mean that may not even last one wash, but this basically means you don't have to spray yourself. It's it's embedded in the material last seventy washes, tell me how you um came up with this idea. Um

19:42 So a few years ago I was um outside with my newborn son, giving him some Nudie Rudy time, which is diaper free time. Yeah. um swatting mosquitoes away from him. Uh, we were just fresh home from hospital, so I really didn't want to spray him with anything. Um, I'm obviously pro insect repellent, but um this was a time when we weren't even putting, you know, gentle soaps in the bath. He was so fresh and new. Yeah.

20:07 Um, so I found myself thinking What if the blanket that he was lying on could have the repellent in it? Rather than me putting it on his skin. Huh. Okay, all right. So now you are now selling the socks and tell me about Uh h how much do the socks cost?

20:23 Um, so they're sold in a box of four for a hundred and nineteen dollars. US, which includes shipping. Got it. Okay. And where are you selling them? Are you selling them? Uh through your website or in stores in Australia, where where are they being sold? Um so it's

20:39 Direct to consumer, just in the US, um, for a couple of reasons. Like it's a much larger market to launch and validate the idea. Um and also the insect repellent industry is heavily regulated, so um it made more sense to launch in one market and validate rather than You know. going global and dealing with all of the regulations of all the different countries at the same time.

21:02 Right. Okay. And are but I'm just curious, are ticks as big of a problem in Australia as they are in parts of the US, certainly the east coast? Of the US. Um, they are a huge problem here, but we don't have the tickborne disease to the extent that the US has. So it's a It's an enormous public health issue over there. Whereas it's not the same. Over here.

21:22 Got it. Okay. Can you give us a sense uh I mean, I imagine you're new, so probably sales are maybe a little slow, or or w or how how's it going? Yeah, so I've made almost twenty sales, which I'm actually super excited about. Great. Um Yeah, every time I get a cell, I do a little happy dance. But it it's already been a journey. Like I've already learnt so much. I've had a few

21:43 post go viral and then Um They did that didn't translate into what you would expect viral sales to be. So it's been you know, it's been a roller coaster already. Got it. Okay. Before we bring in Sarah, uh tell us your question. Let us w what do you what do you need help with?

21:59 My question is, when your product combines functional and emotional value, but people associate it with something that they used to buying cheaply. What actually helps justify the price in those first few seconds before you lose their attention? All right. Great question. Um I want to bring you in, Sarah, because you have dealt with this issue too. I mean you're you are selling premium products but at a at a very affordable

22:23 Price now, but I think probably initially you were not able to do that. Yeah, I mean, Marnie, I f you were kind of speaking to a lot of the journey. uh that we went through when, you know, I I first launched the brand, which is That I could sell my product in person.

22:39 Like when my customers tried on I you know, our dresses, our our blazers, they really they got it immediately and they would convert. But Online it was really really hard to kind of show people why this black dress was so much more superior to uh, you know, another black dress for a fraction of the price. And

22:58 I think you're you're probably running into some of the same challenges here. Just so I better understand, like you mentioned there are other socks out there that have a similar function to your socks, to tick socks, but What makes Tick Sox superior is that it l maintains that tick repellent quality for seventy washes versus the five to six, is that right? Yeah, so the five to six is the d the DIY method. So you can spray and soak yourself, which is it's just a hassle, like it's labor some and that's where that emotional value comes into the equation.

23:28 Like it's peace of mind, it's hustle free. But there are um Like Promethrine treated. clothing is a thing and there are other socks on the market that exist. My biggest differentiation is um the look and feel of them. So they're fun and they're made of breathable bamboo. Whereas

23:45 um the alternatives on the market are very utilitarian. and they're marketed towards like, you know, the hunters, the the hikers. No one's really Made it accessible. Talking um women

23:58 aged between like thirty and fifty. So lots of them are moms. They're looking for like some fun socks that they want their husband or themselves or their children to wear rather than um, you know, like a Cocky colour. Yeah, I mean what what's interesting to me about these is that they're colorful and interesting and and anybody who's been to an REI or you know a a camping store knows what you know, pr getting permethrin and soaking your socks or even buying the clothing. I mean, a lot of it's just just boring, right? And I and and so this is fun. It looks fun. But I think

24:31 You know, your your problem, right, is that it's it's the price point that people kind of are Um because right, because you're they're looking at this thing, a hundred nineteen dollars for socks. And I think that I think that that Y the way you want to think about it is that You wanna reframe that instantly. Like you wanna kinda push this to moms who are sending their kids to summer camp in ma in in Connecticut and Massachusetts where Lyme disease is

24:58 Yeah, rampant, right? Kids playing in tall grass. Yeah. And and that's where I would sort of Focus on the hundred and nineteen dollars beep. Be really transparent about it. I mean Literally a hundred nineteen for socks for four pairs of socks? And and and you answer right away, yeah, because Because we don't sell socks, we sell a a summer worth of protection.

25:20 And then suddenly A hundred nineteen dollars for four socks doesn't seem like a lot. I mean, that's four pairs of socks you're sending your kid to camp with. You're good to go. Like I, you know. As a parent who sent my kids to camp. Who all I'm always like

25:34 Thinking about ticks. And always looking for ticks after hikes. I would really kind of frame your Pitch.

25:41 To that. That audience. Yeah, absolutely. Um, it's sort of like you're leaning more into the emotional value, which is I've had this tongue of war of

25:51 Uh like that's That's where my head originally went and that's where I wanted to go. And then I got a lot of questions of but what actually is it? Like what's the actual repellent and what's the active ingredient? Like very technical questions. Which you should show. Which you should show on your website. I would show a comparison between like a a a a microscopic image of the fabric you know, regular fabric versus your fabric. And I would show that on your site, I would show that in social media that you do. I would hammer that home. Uh, because I think people are gonna want to see that.

26:21 I was gonna say, f first of all, I am that mom that uh migrates to Connecticut for some part of the summer and We are in like Tick City. So I'm with Guy on this one. The first people that I thought about buying this product for are my kids. Like

26:39 Yeah, of course I'm worried about myself too, but you know, I know better than to roll around in the field. My kids do not. Um and so Marnie, I think. This is just my hypothesis. I don't think direct to consumer is the right distribution channel for you. I think it's really hard to have a single product.

26:59 Um, a fairly niche single product thrive on direct to consumer. But I think you would kill it at a lot of outdoor stores, and I think you would kill it with the camp crowd, like Guy said. And my thoughts was, you know. in it at a lot of these American camps. Parents have to purchase a lot of gear. A lot of T shirts, whatever. Bunch of stuff. Crazy amounts.

27:20 To get their kids ready for camp. Um, even if it's just a day camp. And I wonder if you can actually partner with these camps directly to say, You know. I have created the best. Socks for your campers.

27:32 Uh I will donate ten percent, twenty percent to your camp. If you Uh agree.

27:40 And and just see if you can pick up, get some traction that way. And that's not that's still direct to consumer, but I think like a almost a business to business uh, you know, type arrangement. Yeah. I'm also I I know you said pricing, but I'm just doing a quick, you know, Google search comparison. Like A lot of these tick socks, they're like LL Bean has one for twenty seven dollars, or you know, I'm not saying that they're exactly like your product, but

28:03 It makes me think The pricing may not be so much the issue. Like I th it sounds like the market is already Um and I think your products are so fun and exciting and they really stand out.

28:17 Uh When Laid side by side by something more neutral and bland and beige, like you said. So I do think you really have a shot. Uh You know.

28:27 winning versus your competitor here. Uh but I don't Think This should be direct to consumer. Mm. I I I wonder, Sarah, whether you can split split the uh what's the what's the cliche I'm looking for in half. Split the difference? Yeah. Yes.

28:44 you you could have a d a D to C uh you can continue the D to C side because the obviously that's where you get the profitability. But you may want to look at a uh distributor in the US who's gonna work with uh you know there's still a lot of independent outdoor stores in America. There's REI, which is a terrific brand to work with, and and you could even you know, have that distributor work with you to try to pitch them down the road. But The other I would just email camp directors and see what they say. It's g you and you email a hundred of them.

29:20 You know. Thirty of them might get back to you. Yeah, got nothing to lose. It's a great idea. Got nothing to lose. And I think they're not used to

29:30 Getting pitches like this is my guess. So They may just be more open to it, uh, versus like, yes, of course, like be awesome to be an REI. Like that's where Mori's headed for sure. Yeah. Um But Like really understanding who your customer is.

29:45 Um and just going directly to them. Through this medium rather than, you know, performance marketing and ads. Those are gonna be so expensive. And it's it's just gonna cost way more than. what you know, the business can probably afford right now. Yep. Try this route. I'm I'm so curious to hear how it goes. And it it builds a brand. And the other thing is some of these camps, all these camps, they have merch. I mean, some of them might say, Hey

30:09 You could even suggest it. would you be interested in a collaborating where we put our logo on the socks? Yes. Thank you so much. So much food for thought. I really appreciate it. Sarah, last minute advice, any w f last minute wisdom for Marnie? Oh, you made the product fun and I love the packaging. I was gonna say it. The packaging kind of sold me. I was like, I wanna open that box. So thank great great job on on the r on the branding and making it fun. Thank you. Yeah, congrats, Marnie. Uh the brand is called Tic Sox. Marnie Shanahan, thanks for calling and good luck.

30:42 Thank you so much, Kai and Sarah. Thank you. Bye. Um yeah, I'm super paranoid about ticks. I'm in California, so we don't really have Lyme disease as much. I it does h occur here, but I have picked off ticks, I don't know about you, like with tweezers and put them in baggies and sent them off to get tested because I'm so paranoid. Oh wow. Yeah. Yeah. We um Chris is from the

31:04 Town of old Lyme. Yeah, Chris my husband is from the town of Old Lyme. Oh, he's from oh he is that's wow. Yeah, so you know the birthplace of Lyme disease. But yeah, when we take out our dog on a hike, he It's like rare that he doesn't come back with at least twenty ticks. Right. Every time. Every time. And then they jump on us. Yep. Correct. So it's a real it's a real pain point for a lot of people. Yeah. A niche one potentially, but twenty five to thirty dollars for For relief for the anxious parent and

31:34 I think a lot of parents could get over that, that price point. Yeah. Man, ticks are scary. And for some reason there's only a a a a vaccine for dogs. Dogs, I Right, we figured it out for dogs. Hopefully we can figure it out for our kids. Alright, we're gonna take another quick break, but we'll be right back with one more caller. Stay with us, I'm Guy Roz, and you're listening to the advice line right here on how I built this lab.

32:13 Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Roz, and my guest today is Sarah LaFleur, founder and CEO of the women's clothing brand MM LaFleur. Sarah, are you ready for our next call? Let's do it. Alright, let's bring in our final caller to the show. Welcome to the advice line. You're on with Sarah LaFleur. Founder of MMFloor, please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business. Hi Sarah. Hi Guy. I'm David Bronke. I'm calling in from Brooklyn, New York. I'm co-founder of Siblings, which is an eco home fragrance brand.

32:46 Tackling throwaway culture through clean. refillable candles. David, welcome to the show. Thank you for calling. All right, you're in Brooklyn. Siblings is the brand. It's a So you sell candles. So I'm thinking like uh we just received like one of those uh diptyque candles as a gift and Uh, you know, you burn it and then um I don't I I hope we reuse the jar for like

33:05 coins or something. That's not what this is. You don't just throw away the glass container. Exactly. Yeah. So we're making candles that are better for you and better for the planet. You know, it's a candle you never have to throw away. So you simply reuse it through sense and seasons. with our easy candle refills and these refills are what come in a hundred percent compostable bags and all you have to do is melt the wax, pour it into your forever vessel, and you have a new candle. F Okay, so just to clarify g you get these nice kind of containers

33:38 Um Ceramic or whatever they're made out of and Do you like put in the microwave to melt? Like how does it is it like little pellets of wax? Like how How does that work? Yeah, it's it's different. So it you're right, it is a ceramic vessel. We actually have um our ceramics, uh it's ninety-five percent recycled clay. And then the bag, it's a hundred percent compostable, and inside of it is a block of wax. And you stick that bag in the microwave, melt it.

34:04 takes a couple minutes and then pour that into your forever vessel or your candle that's empty. And you just Uh uh. And all right, so tell me a little bit about the business. W you w when did you launch it? Back in two thousand nineteen, I launched this business with my sister, hence the name siblings. We uh we grew up on a horse farm outside of Buffalo, New York, and we we just watched her parents live very sustainably. I mean, it was limited material things, everything passed down and fixed, and the biggest compost pile you've ever seen behind the barn. So we just haven't had that sustainable mindset instilled in us early on. Years later, Eva, my co-founder, is living in Stockholm and she's surrounded by incredible Scandinavian design. And like a lot of people there, she was burning endless candles through the long dark winters. And when she kind of looked closer at all these candles she's burning, she just something was off. Something didn't feel right. You know, it's this beautiful ritual that's supposed to bring you joy and you end up throwing it away.

35:03 Again and again, and that doesn't feel good. So that's ultimately what led to siblings. I love it. And all your sales are direct to consumer right now? Primarily all direct to consumer, but we do have a few retailers such as Credo Beauty and Nordstrom. And are your sales one offs or are they subscriptions or how does that What's a split?

35:22 Yeah, it's actually the subscription side has been growing because we've started what we call a seasonal box. It's curated. So each season there's three new cents that um a subscriber can get. Otherwise, though, I would say it's it's pretty split. A lot of people kinda just try to pick and choose the fragrances that fit with them and what they're looking for at that time. Or they find a favorite and they just kinda get the same one over and over again. Got it. And give me a sense of your sales. Uh what'd you how'd you guys do last year? Last year we did over two million in sales. So the business is doing well. Amazing. Um yeah, and we've kinda been in that low seven figure though for the last last few years and we're trying to break out of that. Okay, um before we dive in further, what is your question for us? Yeah, so

36:04 I mean, I guess for ages, Americans have been in the habit of buying a candle, disposing of it when it's done. You know, some people try to recycle it, try to repurpose it, but the reality is most just end up in the trash. And it really is neglected to the way people thought about plastic water bottles fifteen, twenty years ago. We bought that bottle, we drank it, threw it away. Now that's almost unthinkable as we've embraced reusable bottles. And that's what candle vessels should be. So the question we have is What are the keys to shifting consumer behavior towards refilling something that people are used to throwing away? Okay, great question. Um Sarah LaFleur, I wanna bring you in. Uh before you answer David's question, any

36:44 Thoughts or questions for him? Well I was just gonna say I love the concept, I think. Everything you said rings really true to me, especially as someone who runs a fashion brand. Like this idea of like,

36:57 You don't want to be the person who's just like making more crap and putting it out on the world. And I think it's so beautiful that you and your sister. founded this business and I would say it's genuinely the first time I've heard of anything like it. So um well done for coming up with that angle and then also executing on the product side, because I imagine that wasn't easy either.

37:18 Thank you. Yeah. I was wondering with candles because I don't It's not that I've never bought a candle for myself.

37:25 But I usually receive them as gifts. And I do have scents that I I like, but I haven't been particularly loyal to one scent or to one candle brand. I'm curious what percentage of Your

37:39 Consumers are buying it as a gift to someone else versus buying it for themselves. It's something that we've tried to find obviously through surveys and other things, and we can kinda see when um the shipping address is different from the billing address. You know, that's sometimes a little bit of a telltale. Yeah. Um and we try to we try to find out who is is gifting and it's still a small percentage. And I think that's partly because we're not maybe marketing as well as a gift. Um we we kinda tend to talk more towards the the users themselves, but I think you're right, candles are a very giftable item and um we might be missing that a little bit.

38:16 Yeah, I I yeah, I agree. I mean I you know, I was thinking about the question, right? Like how do you shift consumer this is a question we get a lot, because this is a a heavy lift, right? How do you get people to start to think about this in different ways? And One of the reasons why I was curious about your subscriber base is because that really is seems to me that is a is a huge opportunity, right? Where you you you create that um habit of

38:40 getting a refill or ordering a refill. when you get close to the end of the of the candle. Are you like when you send out a candle uh to somebody with, you know, the sense Are you able to kind of time? maybe a typical burn life cycle to send them an email, or maybe you might even have a phone number, like an SMS. to remind them like it hate time to

39:03 To order refill. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that I mean, we have a really strong retention rate because of that. And what we tend to do is, you know, some people are quick burners, some people are two, three months. They're just a little bit slower. And we kind of try to see that through our data of like when they're going to be out and try to present something to them, whether it's a new scent or their favorite scent at at the right time. Yeah, you know, I think what what's interesting is if you can sell the idea of Oh,

39:30 less friction, right? Like if you can like I think of Soda Stream. Soda stream, most people were just buying soda is right. But then once it became easy, you just go to the store and just get the the The CO cartridges, lots of people adopted that and love it. And that has become relatively low friction for most people. And so That to me is like the idea of like this is easier than just going and buying a new candle. But there's one other thing, and I think, Sarah, this really speaks to what you do.

39:57 Which is I'm not convinced that eco friendly and sustainable and better for the planet actually matter as much. Actually think right now. The uh what matters to especially your kind of consumer is like the person who buys fewer things but better things.

40:14 Like that's in a lot of ways that's the new luxury. It to have fewer things that actually are of value. And I wonder whether you can kind of lean into that idea. Like this is like having fewer better things, that's actually luxurious. Yeah, I actually agree with you. Some of that um we talk about internally, me and Eva a lot of we've just seen it. There has been this shift. I think uh people care about, you know, the better for you, better for the planet, and the sustainability side. But I don't know if it's necessarily at the top of mind for buying decisions anymore, but People absolutely want to have things that they can feel good about putting in their home.

40:52 I agree with Guy. I think you know, maybe the attitudes around eco are are shifting, but I do think there's something here between the The utilitarian versus like sí You know, it's it's used as a gift.

41:07 It's often something decorative in your house. And the vessel to me is like the most important Object. that you're selling because you're saying that's the thing that you get to refill.

41:20 That's the thing that never leaves your house. It's never you're once you bring it in, it's gonna be here for years. And so that vessel needs to be. over the top beautiful. Um, it's that vessel that really will I think emotionally, you know, resonate with the customer because they're thinking

41:38 that this is re a free fillable candle. Like the scent's gonna come and go, but it's the vessel that's gonna stay in my home forever. And I think that's where you have an opportunity to differentiate more. I think right now the it's a relatively straightforward looking, you know, it's looks like a a nice ceramic um pot, but I wouldn't say it's it's wildly different. Like if I

42:00 I you want a siblings vessel that's like Unmistakable. Uh When when you see a siblings, you know, vessel, you know it from anywhere. Yeah. I think that's a g really great idea and and

42:12 I think you're right. So the design is is nice. It's lovely. It it's it reminds me a little bit of Heath ceramics, if if you know that brand. Um But there's an opportunity to to really use that as a canvas to try interesting interesting things. I think practically speaking, You know, um, with two million dollars you probably have a limited marketing budget, but even if it's just a few thousand dollars. Um, you know, ideally you want to use about ten percent of that for marketing, but it's a lot. But

42:39 Um, I would really lean into um into videos that uh short form videos that really show the ease of use. And the beauty and the simplicity of Having this beautiful vessel.

42:52 And I would r I would consider Spending some time. And not all you don't have to spend a whole lot of money, but time thinking about How to make Some simple videos.

43:01 I love that. Yeah, it really is. It's a visual item. Yes. I I think that that really also resonates with me and maybe you already have a lot of these you know, videos or ads running. I think when you're describing like the microwave process, I was like Oh.

43:15 That for me was the the friction point that came up, you know, when I was going down my my uh My marketing funnel. I'm like now in the consideration phase. What are the things that are

43:26 Stopping me from pulling the trigger. It's ooh, that sounds complicated. Um And I think guys spot on with that. Like show us through video how easy it is. Um

43:38 And and I think that's that's one one hurdle you can overcome. Um I go back to the gifting. Like I'm I'm sure holidays are probably some of your strongest moments, just really going back to okay, how can we make this a a beautiful gift. It it feels like your opening joy, your opening comfort. Um I I think that's what we all look for. When we gift a candle and and hopefully receive one. Yeah, for sure. I think it's a um you've got your work out for you, but you've got a great product and you've got a lot of traction, David. So um good luck. The brand is called Siblings. Uh and uh keep us posted.

44:12 Thank you. Thanks so much. Thank you. Um, yeah, I mean I think that and also, you know, there's something like kinda Japanese, Scandinavian simplicity

44:22 like not chaotic. Lifestyle, right? Like a m a more thinking about the hig lifestyle. The hig li that was the word. The hig. Yeah, right, yeah. Or he I don't know how to pronounce it, yeah. Right, yeah. My final question for you, Sarah, is if you could go back now to where when you started M Em the Flor you know, alm almost fifteen years ago.

44:42 Um and knowing what you know now and all the experience that you have. Gained. You're very experienced. What kind of advice could you give to that person, that Sarah

44:54 fifteen years ago, that might have been helpful. That it's gonna take me a decade to become a CEO. Like I was founder from day one, but Um I think that's that's like the confusing thing about the founder CEO role'cause you get slotted into these big titles at in my case at age uh twenty seven and um

45:13 You know, the truth is I I really didn't know what I was doing, but I had this big dream and big ambition and I didn't really care if people thought I was totally crazy'cause I I knew what I wanted and I wanted to go for it. Um but To learn the operations of the job.

45:29 To really understand what metrics matter and what don't, um, to learn people management. Skills and how to run a business, like it it really took me a decade to learn that. Yeah. And so I think

45:44 I think some grace uh Would have been Welcome and I think I you know, I probably could have asked for more help on on how to be A CEO. Um

45:55 I think Anyone can be a founder from day one, but CEO is a is a hard job. And it has to be in some ways learned on the job. It's great advice. And and I think not enough people acknowledge that. That's that's exactly right. Um

46:08 Starting the business one thing, running it. Successfully is another thing. Um that's Sarah LaFleur, founder and CEO of the women's clothing brand, MM LaFleur. Uh Sarah, thanks so much for coming back on the show. Such an honor and just incredible to be back here five years later and uh get to play a small role uh in this amazing.

46:28 Um, family, that is how I built this. So thank you very much. Well, you are a part of it for now and forever. And by the way, if you haven't heard Sarah's original How I Built This Episode, uh go back and check it out. It's a great story. Um you can find a link to it in the podcast description. And here is one of my favorite moments from that episode. We still continue to do trunk shows and we had revenue goals for the month. And so if we weren't meeting our revenue goals, then we would, you know, set up a trunk show stat. Right. But online, I it was just a totally different story. We could not sell our dresses. I have to assume your cash reserves are getting close to running out. Not only did we run out,

47:06 It actually went into the negatives. Our bank account, I think at one point said like negative two thousand or something, and I didn't know you could draw down beyond zero. So That was a wake up call. Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. And by the way, please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free at guyroz.com or on Substack. And of course, if you are working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one-minute message that tells us a little bit about your business and the questions or issues that you're currently facing, because we would love to try and help you solve them.

47:40 You can send us a voice memo at H IBT at ID.wondery.com Or call us at 1800-433-1298. Leave a message there and make sure to tell us how to reach you and we'll put all of this information in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Carla Estevez with editing by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Jimmy Keeley. Our music was composed by Ramteen Arablui.

48:07 Our production team also includes Alex Chung, JC Howard, Casey Herman, Elaine Coates, Chris Massini, Katherine Seifer, Carrie Thompson, Sam Paulson, and Neva Grant. I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening to the advice line right here on how I built this lab.

What you see above is a preview of the first minutes. One unlock costs 10 credits and covers this episode forever: full segment and word-level timestamps on this page, plus .txt, .srt, .vtt and word-level JSON downloads, as many times as you like.