Pivot: Reid Hoffman joins Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway to go deep on AI news

0:00 Hi, it's Reed Hoffman, and today we're bringing something a little different to the Masters of Scale feed. Recently, I had the pleasure of joining my friends Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway on their podcast Pivot to talk about everything. From the very real hype and fears surrounding Deep Seek to why I believe Investing in AI is a good thing. Keep listening to hear the full episode.

0:23 Be sure to subscribe to Pivot with Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway. So you never miss an update. Let me just say Amanda loves your whole this whole jam, Scott. She was like Scott's on fire. I love it. She was vaguely attracted to you, I think. Vaguely is doing a lot of work there.

0:39 Yeah. Everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Box Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. And I'm Scott Galloway. Scott, we've got a very special guest today, someone I like very much uh in Silicon Valley, which is an unusual thing. Joining us today is Reed Hoffman. Uh good morning. Um, so we we're doing a new thing on Pivot. We're gonna make people stay the whole show, and Reed is our very first guest to do this. Um we're having a really good friend of Pivot. It's not just a friend of Pivot, it's an extremely special friend of Pivot. Um, Reed is the co founder of LinkedIn, obviously the host of podcast, Masters of Scale and Possible. He's also the author of a new book, Super Agency, What Could Possible.

1:18 possibly go right with our AI future. I feel like he's positive about the future. Not on everything. Um welcome, Reed again. It's great to be here. I love being on this podcast with you guys. Good. So we're gonna talk about a lot of stuff. And we last time we talked was at with at your event right before the election. Um which you had participated in. We're gonna talk a little bit about that. Um before we start, I we have to acknowledge this tragic crash at uh Reagan Airport in DC on Wednesday night, the worst air disaster in over fifteen years. An American Airlines regional plane with sixty-four people on board collided in midair with a Black Hawk helicopter with three soldiers aboard. recording this on Thursday morning as the recovery operation is underway in the Potomac. Um there was a a a press conference a little while ago authorities confirmed there are no survivors. Twenty-eight bodies have been recovered so far. Uh it was a flight uh coming in from Wichita and the Black Hawk they don't know I'm not gonna speak about it because I don't know anything about this. Um, I don't have any extra information. It's tragic, um, and uh and very, very sad, but they're uh the the authorities here seem to be doing their best to figure out what happened and moving on. And we're not gonna politicize it. We're not gonna do everything there has that has already broken out online. Any reaction from either of you? You don't have to have any whatsoever, but Scott.

2:33 Um Well look, these things obviously it's a tragedy. The only thing They're such a spectacle that they attract a lot of media and I believe about A thousand people a week in the US or about eight hundred people a week dying. automobile accidents. But they're not nearly as dramatic or as much as a spectacle and

2:53 You know, when I hear that's it's a tragedy, but at the same time When I look at the data, it's just sort of incredible. that it doesn't happen more often. I mean what you said at the very top of this, it's the worst uh disaster in over fifteen years because it doesn't happen very often. Yeah. So I'm not saying it doesn't warrant scrutiny. I'm not saying it's not a tragedy. I do think it's just a miracle though. that this form of transportation is as safe as it is. So I uh anyway, so uh uh I I look at it

3:20 Almost as a glass half full, if you will. Yeah. Well and Uh plus one Scott's comments. And obviously hearts go out to the families and all the people. It's a huge tragedy and loss. On the other hand, there's this tendency to try to blame the FAA and you look at the

3:39 Fact is that it's much safer to be flying than it is to be driving. Um and so, you know, there's a credit to to how the whole you know, aeronautics and air transport system works. And there's gonna be, I think, overly much of a witch hunt on the FAA uh camp where actually in fact I think you know the system should also be acknowledged. I heard the air traffic controller was a lesbian. Your thoughts, Kara. Oh Anyway, um I'm sure it was DEI. If they start with that, I'm not gonna have any of it. It's ridiculous. Um there aren't enough air traffic controllers, and obviously there's been a lot of uncertainty around

4:15 uh the federal workforce right now, but it has nothing to do with this particular track tragedy. But that said, it's a r it's a wonderful system that we have, and at the same time Uh just uh just for anyone I live in DC, flying into DCA is terrifying. I find it terrifying. There's so much air traffic going on. You see helicopters, um, there's a weird twists that you have to do because of all the federal buildings, including the Washington Monument and the White House. And so when you're ever you're coming in, I'm I I I I find it uh I've always it makes me nervous uh to come in because it's such a highly trafficked area with military and everyone else. But uh we'll see what happened here because you're right, it never happens. Um but but let's move on. And we're so uh sorry for the families of of the all the people that were killed. We're gonna talk all about deep the deep sea craziness uh in a sec, but first I I wanna want you to start this. Why are you so positive about our AI future? I know you you've you've talked about, you know, things that could go wrong and stuff. Your position on A is somewhere between doomers, gloomers, and zoomers. You call yourself a bloomer.

5:18 Accelerating toward a bright future, but managing risk. Can you just explain yourself so we can put you in the where we put you on the map here. Well, I think in both uh creating amen immense value for humanity and also navigating risks, I think our future will have a much stronger tool set. So in the positive category, Thinking about the fact that you can have a medical assistant that's better than today's average GP On every smartphone running for under five dollars an hour for anyone who has access to a smartphone uh for doing that. A tutor on every subject, uh uh for every age group. And then of course.

5:55 Fact that it's kind of the cognitive industrial revolution of increasing productivity in a lot of different vectors, and I think all of that. is extremely positive. Now it doesn't mean there aren't risks to navigate and some questions, you know, to navigate in kind of good ways, but Um that's why I think I'm you know fundamentally an optimist and fundamentally also. An accelerationist in this direction. But one of the things that a lot of people are talking about is cost to zero for lots of things. I mean, Mark Anderson, I've heard it from Vinode, this idea that everything will cost pennies. Sometimes you all you all go over the top. So that's why people question your not credibility for you, but some people's credibility.

6:34 Well that's that's the difference between bloomers and zoomers, right? The whole the whole notion of a Everything created with technology is gonna create an abundant Star Trek universe immediately. You know, f yes, you know, freely across this is you know, kind of uh a kind of exponential You know, an exponentialism hysteria that I think actually, you know, doesn't have particularly good thinking. I think the the question about saying though, that we can create so much better of a future with technology.

7:02 And it with AI is very important and you just kind of drive navigate intelligently. So Reed, I I'm genuine with this question because I think you're one of the brightest blue flame thinkers in the world of technology. I've sort of blown away by Deep seek. Yeah, I wanna

7:19 I wanna posit a a hypothesis with you and think there's any and see if there's any merit. And that is we were just talking about Um the d the airline disaster or the aircraft. And I was thinking about the airline industry. I was thinking about PCs.

7:34 We can skirt along the surface of the atmosphere at point eight. The speed of sound, it's it's added remarkable valuable to the economy and to consumers. Yeah, air travel, jet air travel. PCs have revolutionized the world. Yet neither of those industries were able to capture or any specific companies were able to capture a great deal of shareholder value. It was consumers

7:56 And the general public. They got captured most of the value. And I'm wondering if Deep Seek Is in fact a signal that in fact AI may be one of those industries where there's not a small number of companies that are worth a couple trillion dollars. But there's so much competition and the barriers are so low.

8:14 that it might have unbelievable winners But those winners will be further dispersed into the general public and the economy, and we might not have a small number of winners as we did in social or search. That the big winners similar to the airline or the PC industry. might be the public But a lack of really big winners.

8:34 in tech. Your thoughts. Interesting uh thesis. Um I would tend to think it'll be more like kind of software. You know, internet dynamics. Um, but I actually don't think that's necessarily'cause there's only one or two. I mean, I think one of the things that the internet brought about with it is, you know, previously when it was kind of like hardware dynamics and PCs were dominant, was part of the thing where everyone was like, Microsoft's gonna be competing with Disney and with airlines and everything else, because it's the the primary software OS and the internet. Open it up.

9:04 to allow, you know, kind of Google and Amazon and so forth. So I think there's going to be multiple and I think we're more Call it seven big tech companies heading to fifteen, but But I don't think it's Going I think that

9:18 That the same kind of dynamics where you have Like a network effect for a social network or a LinkedIn or a you know kind of an enterprise integration or a you know, kind of uh the the the way that they kinda add words and buying the The search traffic.

9:35 you know, kinda works for you know, kind of Google, I think those dynamics probably will still be present. in A. I doesn't mean that, you know, like I'm No, venture capitalist investor. Greylock, I invest in a number of different startups, and I think there will be I

9:50 Like I just literally a field. But I And I think that the public will benefit a lot from that, just kinda like the way they benefit a lot from you know, Wikipedia, the internet, you know, free communications and a bunch of other things. But I um I don't think it's necessarily kind of um you know, kind of completely broadly dispersed. You're not gonna see it. So but why don't you just go into'cause one of the th some of our listeners are like we didn't say enough about deep seek. Well honestly, we don't know. Scott and I don't know, like you, for example. So it caused a frenzy in tech and markets. And so we brought

10:20 We brought read in to explain, listeners, because we're idiots. Fine. So deep sea causes frenzy in tech in the markets. I'd love your your take on what we're seeing and what excites you about it and what worries you. And I will note that OpenAI, where you were an early investor, you're no longer on the board, and Microsoft, where you are on the board now, are investigating whether OpenAI's data was stolen to build Deep Seek's model. They were also relying on open source stuff like Lama from Meta, et cetera. So talk a little bit about Give your take on this, uh and and make it a hot take'cause that's person you are.

10:55 Yeah, I'm happy to do it. By the way, one of the benefits of me being able to speculate is I have no internal information from um either uh Microsoft or OpenAI, so I can speak entirely as a you know outside commentator just looking at this. Um so Deep Seek um released a you know highly competent model Um from You know, kinda China. And you know, kind of

11:17 Uh. Part of the reason why I took the market by storm is the thesis was that it was created for a lot less money and a lot less compute. And What I think is there's certainly some parts of the story that are incorrect. The thing that we're trying to figure out is which parts of it are incorrect.

11:34 And I would speculate with some vigour that That they actually had some version of access to larger models in helping training. Cause this is actually something we all knew already last year, year before, is that large models will help train small small models. And so that means when you train a small model effectively. But you need a large model in order to do it. That's actually not disproving the the need for these scale systems because when you have the better and better large scale models, you'll be able to train also really, really good. So they were riding off of your rails, in other words. Exactly. Right. And so

12:08 I would hazard strongly There there's something like that in the background. Now it could be That they had, you know, kind of some kind of access to chat GBT. Certainly some of the data and evidence suggest that in terms of the way that it answers and does certain things. Um, it could be that they actually had access to a compute cluster of of size, because The so-called training run really makes sense. And I've cross-checked this across multiple groups, um, you know, like outside groups saying, Hey, you know, what is it? What makes sense here? And they're like, Yeah, for the final training run. On a seriote cluster, that could be the dollars that was that was spent on this in order to make it happen. Doesn't include talent, doesn't include all these other things. Right. The stuff that was so as they were saying it was five to six million. Ever no one thinks that'cause again, the talent that they hired, they put in place. It was a lot of younger people, correct? That's their story that it wasn't highly paid.

13:00 Anyway, yeah. Exactly. And I think that the I think it's nearly certain that it's dependent upon the large scale compute, the larger models in some way. The only question is we don't know in what ways and how. Um, and I think that's one of the things that everyone's investigating. And so I think the kind of market frenzy on, oh my God, AI can be here.

13:20 without large scale compute. And of course, by the way, AI can be here. We I invest in startups that train small models and so forth. But the large models still bring Certainly. critical elements to the table in terms of ability to train small models, ability to get to performance. Like if you say, well Hey, uh moving from ten thousand GPUs to a hundred thousand GPUs, we only get a twenty percent better.

13:43 Coder. Medical assistant, legal assistant, tutor, like well In a wide variety of those areas. that really matters that that actually that that increase in cost when you amortize it across people accessing it across the entire internet, the billions of people that could use it, that's actually completely worth it and makes You know, total economic sense. So the cheapness of it. So what excites you about it and what were and why did it have such a market impact from your perspective? You saw NVIDIA got crashed, it came back up, but you know, this was the idea is because it's the the economic underpinnings of this.

14:15 Might which everyone's worried about, this amount of money, fifty billion dollars, eighty billion dollars, et cetera. Microsoft is eighty, I think. Mess. Yeah, I by the way, I think that all of these questions are in the classic kind of like, you know, um shorttermism versus longtermism. Cause if you saying, hey, I'm spending I'm doing all you know, kind of uh building this kind of CapEx thing of fifty to eighty billion dollars.

14:41 A, I can train much better intelligence, but B, I'm also these are kind of data centers that I in terms of serving intelligence through various apps, you know, to to the world. You know, you could say, well, the payoff is longer than I'd like as a public market. I'd like the payoff to be three years and maybe it'll be five years or seven years. You know, that's the kind of range you're talking about. So I find that the general discussion on the, you know. X. Tens of billions of dollars to be short sighted, um, generally, me as a private citizen, me as a venture investor, obviously making zero comment uh as a you know kind of Microsoft board member. But the um and so I think that it's an extremely important area to be investing in, and I'm actually, you know, glad

15:22 that that we as a industry are doing this. I mean one of the things that I've you know kind of thought about over December was that I I want you know, artificial intelligence not just to be amplification intelligence. I want it to be American intelligence. Um in terms of China thing. They're always bringing the G or me kind of argument. Go ahead. Yeah. Yeah. And I think by the way, part of the criticism I used to get last year and the year before when I was saying, hey, look, we are game on with China was like, oh, you're just trying to get the excuse that that we shouldn't be, you know, interfering with you and slowing you down and so forth. It's like, no, no, no, I see the competition coming. And one of I think the huge virtues of of Deep Seek is kind of like, yes, There it is, right? That that is serious and real competition. And um and I think that's the that's that's the world we're in. Yeah, who would have thought that China would engage in IP theft to create a cheaper product? We've never seen that before.

16:14 Um I love that AI is is taking the job of AI. Yeah, that's the John Stewart said. Um another another thesis, most consumer markets if you think of this is not only B to B, but B to C. They bifurcate. It becomes Walmart or Tiffany. It becomes Android Which is essentially free. And it's ad supported or it's IOS.

16:39 Isn't this potentially just the first sort of Shot across the bow where this market is gonna become similar to every other consumer market where we're gonna have Walmart and Tiffany, and this is kind of the first entry into the Walmart, 80%. kind of old Navy. A eight old Navy's eighty percent of gap for fifty percent of the price. And that hits a large market, but a lot of people want gap or banana republic, that there's a market for both of these If you will, both this both both respective positionings.

17:05 I think yes. And actually, in fact when we kind of talk about What is our agenda future? Most people tend to think, you know, there's gonna be like one like, you know, be Lord of the Rings. There's one agent to rule them all. And actually, in fact, I think there's gonna be, you know. Uh. in a sense, more agents than people, because every person's gonna have multiple agents. Now there may be a a limited number of codebes, call it you know, a thousand, you know, kind of powering all the kind of different agents. Could be ten thousand. Um, but I think we're gonna actually live in a in a very rich agent environment, and that's gonna have all it's not just gonna be the kind of the Walmart or Tiffany's. I think it's gonna be

17:40 You know. This agent's actually particularly good at travel. This agent's particularly good at um, you know, kind of interpersonal discussion. This agent's particularly good for, you know, people like Scott and and and this other agent's particularly good for people like Kara. Right. Right. So an agent that writes better dick jokes. Go ahead. Okay. Exactly. No, no, but this is precisely the the point is like you know, this one will be sardon sardonic and a little sarcastic, and Scott's like, yeah, that's that's my agent. And and this agent's gonna be fiery and say No, we gotta hold you to a higher standard and that'll be the care agent. And then you know, then you'll have the nuanced agent of of the one for Ead saying, Well, on one hand, and on the other hand Yeah, yeah, that it would be your agent, wouldn't it be? So let me speaking of that, what he was talking about, you just raised twenty four, twenty five million dollars in funding for AI drug discovery startup, uh focusing on cancer research and doing This is something that's not a

18:30 You know, Sam did this at the White House event, for example. And and your book is called Super Agency. So th this is this is drug discovery. Super agency is what you're writing about. Of these many things, where do you think The quicker is and the more important for the economy. And explain what super a super agency is what you were just saying, correct? Yes. Well, superagency is what happens, and we've seen this from everything from you know, uh you know, the fire and agriculture to the printing press to you know the car and electricity. is what happens when when millions of people all get access to the uh superpowers of increasing their agency at the same time and we collectively, um, you know, get super agency. Like, for example, when I get a car, I don't just get a place to be able to, you know, get a Broader geographic mobility, my friends can come visit me. A doctor can come do a home visit. Um, you know, the you know, things can be delivered into kind of the local neighborhood. And so that's kind of the superagency and and the thesis.

19:32 is just like everything else with You know, kind of um, you know, the the internet and the mobile phone. That we will all get super agency

19:42 through AI because the cognitive superpowers that you get, that I get, that Scott gets. will actually be we we will get even more superpowers because we're all getting them. Um at the same time. And That is I think You know, kind of.

19:56 Like w it it the it's you know, one William Gibson line, the future's already here, but unevenly distributed. That's already present. There's already a whole bunch of different things you can do with um you know AI that most people don't realize is a huge amplifier in both how they navigate their personal life and how they navigate their their kind of future life. Now A menace. um is kind of my know kind of thinking about like what are the things that these AI things can can greatly do to massively improve the kind of human life and human condition that are kind of in a different direction that most people are heading. So Manus, for example, is not building an agent, um, it's kind of saying

20:37 Actually in fact this the the biology of our human bodies is a uh um as a complex language And part of what's going on with cancer is kind of misfires in that language. And we can take these Uh great. uh amplification that you get with AI and take the best of AI and take it with the best of science, and then you can tackle

21:00 A problem that, you know. Five year olds. uh get cancer sometimes. It's not just, you know, it's it's the entire everybody in the human race. At all ages of our system is naturally trying to regulate cancer, and all of us are at at risk for it. And it's something that we can potentially solve. With AI. Right. But that's not agency. So you're sort of where is most of your money going? A agents, these agents that you just spoke of, or is it

21:31 You know, w or is it these other things? Like or is it just like electricity? We don't know where where it's gonna be applied. It can be applied you know, to everything from uh light bulbs to, you know, electrocuting people, right? You just don't know what the Application is. Well, I think there's a broad range and As an investor and as a kind of a theorist and thinker, it's anything that could make a massive difference for the human condition.

21:57 Um so I'm both very pro Agent, Agent Universe, but I'm also pro all the other applications, whether it's, you know, kind of climate change, Cancer. And and I think that's part of the reason why this technology, like for example, electricity does an entire range of things. It's not just powering light bulbs. It's you know, your heating and now, you know, cars and and you know the whole range. Like we we can't live.

22:21 in anything like even approximately close to our modern condition without electricity. So I and I think that's the the the kind of technology that we're the comparative. The comparison. So any amount of money spent is good money spent from your perspective. Well, yes, it doesn't mean that some of it won't be seriously wasted by a bad approach. And but that's classic, as you know, for the venture industry. So there will be, you know, hundreds. But the overall industry

22:52 will create a massively good Surplus for humanity and society. In any case, we got a lot to get to today. We take a quick break, then we'll talk through some of this week's big headlines with Reed. Scott and Reed, we're back. We've got a lot to get to today. Let's get into some headlines now. Uh Medit will pay Trump twenty five million dollar settlement for shutting down his accounts after January sixth. Most of the payment will go towards Trump's presidential library again, much as Disney's payment of fifteen million dollars is gonna do that. X, uh, who also kicked Trump off the platform after January sixth, says it's negotiating its own settlement with Trump. Uh apparently the Trump people said Mark wasn't gonna get into the tent, uh unless unless he did this. I just you don't seem to be paying anybody millions of dollars to get in the tent. So what what do you think, Reed? So

23:47 It was a long sig that you just had there. Well look, I obviously think that the the notion of Of You know, kind of this sort of payoff is I think is to put it charitably suboptimal. And I think that the The you know the question of like the fact is when the when people are removed from services for violations of terms of service

24:09 They're removed from violations of terms of service. Um, and I think that's a uh perfectly good thing and and I, you know myself am a massive advocate for, you know, kind of the rule of law and and kind of how these kind of contracts work, but Um I understand. Expediency in navigation.

24:29 Okay, what does that mean? That means that meaning. It's a Vig. It feels like a Vig to me. That's my sounds like a mob move to me. Yeah. You know, uh I don't want wouldn't want a nice company you got there. Wouldn't want anything to happen to it.

24:45 Well, let's hope That we see very little of that in the coming years, although obviously uh we have deep worries in the other direction. Couldn't couldn't he keep doing this, suing people and getting these things? Well, I guess the question will be is It's kind of like How much do people kind of respond?

25:04 To this sort of Excess pressure. Uh on on these kinds of things. And I think that that uh

25:14 Frankly You know. We shouldn't want it as a society. Uh and And uh you know, I think probably there will at some point be a bridge too far on it and seeing what that

25:27 That that bridge looks like. Um, I think will is is still something where You know, we're looking for that bridge too far is. Well there's two there's two. dimensions to this. The first is from a pure shareholder standpoint, it probably makes sense when the president's coming after you to say, and you make, you know, twenty million dollars a year in operating profit to say, Yeah, just make it go away. Just give them twenty five million dollars to the presidential library and make it go away.

25:52 The problem is, and I wouldn't expect based on pattern behavior Mark Zuckerberg to think anything about this is that this has real societal implications. And that is despite the fact Bob Iger made forty five million dollars last year, I would argue he's becoming more and more impoverished in terms of his Citizenship.

26:11 And that is When A media company. Says things that are a fraction Of the misinformation, slander, disparaging statements that the president has made himself.

26:23 That happens every day online. And they agree to set precedent by bending a knee and bowing to this intimidation. It sends a chill across the entire fucking nation. I I'm on Morning Joe.

26:39 And I call the president an insurrectionist and a rapist. And Mika stops the show. To clarify he was found guilty of sexual abuse. Or excuse me, sexual libel. He was found libel of sexual abuse. Is that the right terminology? But look at what we're doing, all right? And by the way, the judge then went on in his sentencing to say

27:02 The street term for that is rape. So what do you have? You have a group of people. This is straight out of the fascist handbook. Intimidate anyone who says anything negative about you. And if these companies, in my opinion, had more fidelity to American values and the very important role media plays. In checking power.

27:23 They wouldn't be bending the fucking knee like this. So is it a practical thing to do? Yes, you can't argue with that. W d has it sent a chill? across the entire country in what is an incredible double standard that the critic of President Trump are now feel that they're being held to Look at the shit he has said. about people that's been incorrect.

27:47 So I I you know, yeah, Bob and Mark. I expected this from Mark. I was disappointed to see it from Bob. Where are the men? Where the Americans who are gonna stand up and say no. If if you're not guilty, if we're not if the entire ecosystem has never been held liable for things much more slanderous or disparaging than these statements, I'll see you in court. In this case it wasn't statements. He he he he broke the rules of Facebook and they kicked him off. That's all. It was not as reading was not. Yeah, exactly. So we when we when we talked in October, I asked if you were concerned about Trump and retribution and your own well being and and you said yes. Talk about

28:25 Now, how are you feeling?'Cause obviously you were one of the more prominent supporters of Kamala Harris, obviously a big democratic donor. You do give to Republicans also, for which for some reason you get endless shit. I'm not sure why. I think that's probably fine to do that. How do you feel now? Do you feel in that crosshairs that we had discussed? Well it's unclear. Um I'm hopeful. That

28:48 A bunch of my friends who are around uh the administration say, look, that's just kind of all rhetoric. And you know, yeah, isn't actually going to be part of what's Yeah Yes, that's what they say to me. Um and so that obviously is hopeful. Um, but I obviously it's one of the things that I think, you know

29:07 Both me personally and we as Americans need to watch We do want to be to continue to be uh you know the home of the brave and land of the free. Um, and I think that that's very important to be

29:22 you know, resolutely Against You know kind of abuses of of state power um for individual interests. And so, you know

29:32 Like I said. I went and talked to a whole bunch of people who are, you know, kind of in You know, and around the current administration said, Look, you know, I have this worry. They said, Look We've talked to a bunch of people. They say this is not something we're gonna do. It's like okay, then you know, let's let's wait and see. Are these are these the same people that said he wasn't gonna let out everybody at January sixth? He's only gonna let out he wasn't gonna let out the criminals, but then he did. That's the same thing. They wasn't the same people as those. He's done that several times. He's done that several times. So there's there's worries. And like for example, letting out the people who

30:06 Assaulted police officers Uh is is is a t you know, as per what Scott was saying earlier, is a terrible signal. Um it it's basically saying, Hey, um you know, like if you're doing violence in a in a in a cause that I am supportive of, you know, I have this thing of a presidential pardon. Um, and you know, that's obviously Uh.

30:28 You know, frankly Yo. Uh terrifying, concerning. Right. But you didn't want a presidential pardon, correct? No. No, of course not. Yeah. You didn't do anything. But but here's but here's the problem. If I'm a thoughtful guy who's high profile With a lot of business interests.

30:44 With a family. I would be inclined, I'm not just gonna speak for you, Reed, I'd be inclined to keep a very low profile. Over the next twelve months. Whereas the people on the right Are emboldened.

30:56 To be aggressive. And pollute and flood zone. With misinformation and bullshit and attacks. And the people on the other side of the aisle feel like well maybe I should just keep quiet for a while.

31:09 because they are removing security details. of people which is nothing but repackage violence. When you took out The head of the Iranian security forces and you ordered that strike as a general. And the president for whatever reason doesn't like you is removing your secur your security detail.

31:26 That is repackaged violence against that person. So what we have is a group. This is the road to fascism. Keep them quiet, put a chill across people. I'm gonna keep a low profile. I'm maybe I'm just not going to be quite as aggressive. That is And I'm I want you both to respond to this, is littered with calls

31:52 Or accusations that people are overreacting. Call me overreacting. Mm-hmm. Let me just say Amanda loves your whole this whole jam, Scott. She was like Scott's on fire, I love it. She was vaguely attracted to you, I think. Vaguely is doing a lot of work there. Vaguely. Vaguely is doing a lot of work. She was. She wanted me to tell you. I think you're right. But the that's I I think it's you know, people that are very high profile like Reed aren't certainly aren't backing down. Don't seem to be disappearing. He's right here, right? And he's talking about it. So I think the question is when Mark does these deals, when he just doesn't. doesn't have to and it doesn't help them from a shareholder point of view. I really that's nonsense. Um it's really but I again we expected Mark to do this. Sorry I know Reed you were Reed was early at at Facebook for and has been had been a mentor to to Mark. I don't think he's listening to someone like you anymore. But that said, you you and Bill Gates had been. Um and

32:45 Well they are no longer, I would guess, but I don't know. Look, the thing Um, I think that the American people should pay a lot of attention to the removing the security detail from You know, a person who spent their entire life serving the American people, putting himself in harm's way, um, you know, kind of helping secure the

33:07 The safety of America. you know, both locally and Americans abroad. And saying, Hey, for petty reasons, I am putting that person directly in the harms way of violence. And I think that is a, you know, an unpatriotic you know, personal thing that I think is extremely important that everyone should pay attention to. And I think it's exactly that is I think that, you know, as Scott's saying,

33:30 On the things that are like that is the kind of thing. that is deeply unamerican. Like I think People need to speak up about. And so you know one hundred percent. So another thing that people are talking about a lot here in Washington, at least the Trump administration is offering two million government employees the option to resign by February 6th, if they're not willing to return to the office full time. And what's being called a deferred resignation, employees that resign will continue to be paid and get benefits for eight months.

33:59 This move has Elon Musk's fingerprints all over it, down the subject line of the email sent to those employees of Fork in the Road, which he was an email Elon sent to Twitter staff in twenty twenty two. I have been stopped by so many government employees saying, What should I do? I said, Hold, do not leave because they won't pay you because Elon has still has severance issues with those people um that were supposed to be paid at Twitter. It's it's one of these ploys to get people out the door. Um there's also federal employees have more uh uh private employees have rights in California, New York especially, but here they have more. Uh What do you do make of this plan? It's unclear whether Trump can even offer this buyout package without budget authorization, if he has the money for it. Uh they're they're they're hoping that five to ten percent of federal employees accept the offer, which could mean to hundreds of thousands of people. You know, we've been involved in companies that do things like this, and obviously you end up paying them unlike What Elon did at Twitter. It looks like that he went around everybody. They it looks like he went around everybody. This plan was sort of foistted upon people without even Trump officials knowing it was happening. Um That's the that was a story in the Washington Post today. So thoughts?

35:07 Yeah, so it is a technique that when d deployed with honor is is actually in fact Something that has some strength in the private ecosystem. Um, because it's kind of in the private ecosystem. The way it works is if you're not committed to the future of this. Then now is a good time. Um because

35:27 doing and it works in the private ecosystem in part because you know part of it is not as only am I committed to the mission of this, but There's also an economic reason to uh be keeping going. You believe in the stock options, the bonus plan, all these kind of things for that. Now I worry in the public circumstance that that the that applied here.

35:47 that that a lot of the folks who go, Okay, you know, I could get jobs and Yeah. I'm gonna go do one of those. And do this. And this will be deplo de uh you know kind of Depriving the American people of some really great talent. So the good people will leave, in other words, which is always worry when you're doing this, right? When you're doing one of these broad layoffs. Yeah. And that's I think unlike the in the private ecosystem where you actually have a and we have a rich incentive plan for staying too, right? Here it's like

36:17 You know, here's an incentive plan for leaving versus an incentive plan for staying. Mm-hmm. So the best people leave. And in in the case of private companies, they try to retain the or they or they specifically target certain employees. Correct. This is too broad in that regard. So you the best people will go with the experience and the worse people will stay, correct? Or the less good people will stay. Yeah. There's a worry about a selection effect. Right. Uh, did you notice the echoes of what Elon had done here? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

36:45 And Well, I mean look I think Uh I think we will see many things uh that are the parallel to

36:56 Um, you know, how Elon thinks an organization should be turned around from Twitter to the federal government. The fact that you're looking now where, you know, the what was the leaked email is like, Wait, we're not doing very well. Um you know, um is what a at whatever X years on it is for Twitter. Um

37:14 You know, it's like, well, you know, should be learning from that. And that's within the standard understood commercial. Ecosystem. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Just so today uh you're not gonna talk about the financial results, but uh Tesla's results were terrible. Um, even though the stock is going up because uh Because they aren't selling as many cars. In any case, um Scott.

37:34 Yeah, you you guys have said it. I I don't like buyouts because the people with the most options, the most talented people, are the ones that exercise them. I'm much more I I don't think there's anything wrong with the thesis that there's too many federal employees and we need to Um, trim it and they should be subject to the same standards and insecurities and anxieties and you know, work week that private employees are subject to. I don't have a problem with that. I think it should be based on what departments are least efficient or performance, but

38:03 These Your most talented people leave. The people with the most options. Leave. It it it is a degradation, I think, in the quality of the workforce. It just it it's not the way to go about this. Is there a good way to do this, Re? From from technolon's using all his playbook, right? What is the playbook that would work here to do what Scott was talking about from your per if you had to think of it off the top of your head?

38:25 Well, I mean, the parallel on the commercial side is that you actually also have incentives For keeping the good people to stay. Whether there's stock, bonuses, other kinds of things as ways of doing it. So it's not just the stick, it's the carrot. uh for for the for going long. in your long term commitment to the organization and it's and its in its in its mission.

38:49 Um so you know Uh it you know, this would probably be harder and maybe not within the you know, kind of uh presidential remit. But you know, bonuses. Um, like you could imagine

39:01 Um, like, you know, the kind of thing you'd say is hey, if we if we if you figure out how to Um cut. uh ten percent of your budget will give you a one percent bonus, uh on these kind of things would be the kind of thing that I would Um you know, potentially look at. But I think it's it's all, of course, very tricky and difficult. And difficult in a public environment versus a private one. Right. Exactly. Because what is results? Because sometimes results. People being less poor. Like what are the what are the act? It's not a stock. You can see it in the stock market versus something else.

39:32 Exactly. Right, which is difficult. Is the is the concept of cutting people a good idea from your perspective? Uh fundamentally yes. Um, just because it's part of what makes Like what are the things we should learn from a bunch of the things that we learn from the commercial side? And part of it is refactoring organizations is essential.

39:54 for keeping them healthy. Um, and so that refactoring is extremely important. I'm quite certain if one Looked through the kind of the federal government one would find like and I'm sure the like I'm using this as a hypothetical example, it's like you know, you've got Uh

40:11 maybe still a weather balloon department. You know, and it's like Well, we should have one of one of those, got satellites and a bunch of other stuff. I'm not sure we need one of those. You know, that kind of thing. Um, and so I think that refactoring is good. And I think getting to that refactoring, figuring out how to do it in a good intelligent way is one of the things that I'm Uh I think it's Like we could be hopeful for maybe some Good will come of this.

40:36 A way to get it started. Yeah, look, I think one of the things we're gonna have to pay attention to is I think the default will be massively increase the deficit. Um, and I think the the problem should be is we should not be We should try trying to reduce the deficit. I mean, if you look at the actual budget and you want to get

40:53 You know. A lot of money. out of what we're spending, we're spending on debt service is one of the massive line items. And so increasing that is just you know mortgaging Our children's future. More. I mean it's already somewhat mortgaged.

41:07 Let's try to pay off the mortgage versus add to it. Right. Doing in doing this. Well, we'll see what happens. Anyway, um one of the other things that uh that um besides doing this, Elon's doing is and this is an area you you obviously came together in with PayPal when he had X dot com, but they're partnering with Visa to allow real time payments through its upcoming X Money Service. CEO Lindy Yakarino announced that he'll say it would enable instant funding to an X wallet via Visa Direct. Will also allow users to make peer-to-peer payments. Um I I I look, they were gonna do this, they announced this, but I'm just curious where you would um Where this is going, this these these ideas of the everything app and

41:47 You know, this was a concept that X has. It's been going around forever, right? I mean, everyone talks about this. But where is the payment space right now? Oh away from this. I would never Trust. Any

41:59 Anything Linda Yakarinos Working on with my money, but that's different. Um, where is it right now, the payment space? It seems like Apple dominates this whole space right now, uh and and PayPal. Well pay uh payments is an area that at least has scale effect, if not sometimes uh network effects. And so And one of the things is you have to get to a certain scale before you even have a viable payments network. And so

42:23 Getting that scale really matters. I think that we want to see a bunch of good innovation. Yeah. Um it is a very, you know, kind of common pattern. to kinda go, oh, the way I'm gonna more verticalize and extend

42:36 you know, my service is by adding in you know, kind of payments and banking. I mean, we see it in a number of different uh contexts. I mean, Google has one. There's a there's a stack of these. And you know, given my own background Yeah, kind of doing the

42:52 uh the the kind of payment space, it's actually one of the areas that I kind of look at because It it adds to the the the the flexibility. Like one of the things I really loved about what we did at PayPal was try to make every individual able to be a merchant. Now that's now much more true in the whole world, which wasn't true before, which allows, you know uh kind of individual entrepreneurship inside. And so I think it's a good area to improve. Um you know. Lots and lots of people are doing it.

43:18 Yeah, a platform built on rage, porn, and crypto scams handling your money. What could go wrong? Uh Look, the F D I C or banks have the FDIC, Twitter has dog memes. I I just Uh our financial institution is based on trust. So you hit a button that they have figured out a way to get it there safely, that along the way it doesn't get sequestered, that money is not know your customer. There's all sorts of things. Uh FDIC insurance. I mean there there are so many protocols and I uh it Twitter to me does not reek of security or safety when it comes to people's money. It might actually the underlying technology and its ubiquity, it might be a good use case for it.

43:58 But the entire financial system is is in is a case study in trust. And I don't think feel this organization has created a great deal of trust. All right. So wait, where i where is the most innovative thing you're seeing in funding right now? I mean, obviously, again, I don't think I've touched I I've dealt with money for A year now. I don't even like I found a twenty in my wallet and I was like, Oh, look at that. Um w I use Apple almost entirely for all payments, everywhere I go, obviously, um, because I have an iPhone. But is what is the most innovative thing you're seeing in this area? Well um I haven't Since I'm in so focused on

44:34 On AI stuff. I haven't Actually been looking at this. Closely. Obviously there's a whole bunch of

44:41 Things that are um uh being developed within the crypto arena. um to try to have kind of ledgers and identity and and all the rest of that. And you know, the kind of the promise of that is to try to create Something that has a You know, you know, to to to elaborate on I think Scott's excellent comments is, you know, how do we have trustless trust, which is

45:02 a trust in the system that doesn't require trust in a centralized authority, you know, whose you know uh ability to hold that trust may be limited. And Uh and so I think, you know, that's one area that I think continues to burble along. Now none of it has any of the in depth traction that, you know, Apple or other, you know,'cause you know, the key thing with payments tends to be ease of use and integration into your environment. Um and so Um, you know, I think that part of what Stripe's doing

45:30 That I think great is making it very easy to incorporate Um, you know, kinda Delaware. uh corporations from anywhere or from many areas in the world and then provide a uh a kind of a e economic powering structure underneath that to power entrepreneurship, um is I think like a really good thing. But I but like I said, this I've been so focused on AI that in this area I'm I'm I like someone may call me after this and say, this is really good. And I go, Oh yeah, that's the thing I should have said, but I just didn't know it at the time. Alright, uh Scott and Reed, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about RFK Junior's contentious confirmation hearing.

46:09 Mm. Scott and Reed, we're back as we tape this. HHS secretary nominee Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is in the hot seat for the second day of his confirmation hearing. Things got a little heated on day one, with Kennedy rejecting claims that he's anti-vaccine, addressing abortion flip-flops, and struggling with the question about Medicare and Medicaid. He's also asked some of his previous controversial comments. Let's listen to exchange with uh Democratic Senator Michael Bennett, who's a favorite of Scott's and mine. Did you say that Covid nineteen was a gen genetically engineered bioweapon that targets black and white people.

46:45 But spared Ashkenazi Jews and Chinese people. Uh I didn't say it was deliberately targeted. I just r I just quoted and NIH funded and NIH Uh published study. Did you say that it targets black and white people, but spared Osconosites. Kennedy's own family is also expressing concerns. J FK's daughter, Carolyn Kennedy, sent a letter to senators ahead of the hearing. She called her cousin a predator and accused him of exploiting their family's tragic history. Let's listen.

47:25 Bobby continues to grandstand off my father's assassination. And that of his own father. It's incomprehensible to me. That someone who is willing to exploit their own painful family tragedies for publicity. Would be put in charge of America's life and death situations.

47:44 Unlike Bobby, I try not to speak for my father, but I am certain that he and my uncle Bobby, who gave their lives in public service to our country. And my uncle Teddy, who devoted his long center career to the cause of improving health care. Would be disgusted. Okay, that was the nice part. Just so you know for everybody, uh, which wasn't very nice. Um you know, all these all these things seem to be going through Pete Hegseth and and everybody else. Any uh any of them you'd like to comment on the Kennedy one is particularly it looks like he will probably get through. Same thing with Tulsi Gabbard and et cetera, et cetera, on down the line. Um

48:21 What is happening here? I do believe a president should have pretty wide birth in terms of bringing in their own people. And Uh uh for all of the Weirdness and incompetence. parade of of some of these nominees. I think this is the most dangerous

48:37 Um You know, uh the you you have an individual here who's not only Anti vaccine. If if you were to list the the greatest innovations In history, I I think most thoughtful scientists from both sides of the political spectrum.

48:52 Vaccines would be near the top of the list. And the fact that we have now politicized it and have an individual with no science background spewing misinformation who seems to be committed to reducing Or created skepticism around vaccines and then something that came out yesterday. Uh from Senator Warren was that

49:12 He is being paid for To find people to sue Gardasil. uh an HPV vaccine that so far has shown to reduce cervical cancer in women by ninety percent. I mean, I don't know if either of you known anyone with cervical cancer. I have.

49:30 My God, we have something We have something that can prevent nine out of ten times this vicious awful disease, and we have the head. Of HHS being Paid? to try and discourage and financially damage that miracle.

49:49 This guy has no business. At HHS. He he he is probably the most dangerous of the nominees in terms of what it could mean long term without attribution, where in ten years we wake up and go Oh, cervical cancer's back. And reverse engineer it to this individual.

50:08 who is blatantly repeatedly anti vaccine. I think this is awful. I made my sons get it immediately when it happened. Um Reed, uh how are you looking at these? Obviously you're making these you know, AI investments in cancer research. This guy will be Right there. um at the head of of all these organizations that are very related to some of these things. So look um I think

50:33 The unfortunate prediction For R FKs you know, probable confirmation is it will probably be measured in thousands of American lives lost. Right. I think that the

50:45 The question around The the fact that he's saying, I'm just following science. No, he's not. Right. It's just it's it's not only is the anti vaccine in you know many many statements over decades Like he is essentially anti science. Like I've heard of meetings where he is meeting with with scientists.

51:05 Where the scientists try to tell me he's like, No, no, you're supposed to listen to me. It's like no no, the whole point is to listen to to to good scientists. And I think this will be You know, if this confirmation goes through I think the you know the senators who vote on it should track.

51:21 You know, how many thousands of American lives. They're willing to Spend. You know, in this calculus, because if he implements any of the things that he has thought of he has articulated and talked about. You know, I think it it it the the cost is gonna be measured in lives.

51:38 Have you been been surprised by how many tech people um have been attracted to him. I'm I'm gonna leave that Nicole Shanahan. She was not a tech person. She's just a rich person who married A tech person who married and got money that way. Um how do you have have you been surprised by that? Cause there is a whole strain of people who really back him. In the tech. firm in the tech area. Even as they make these big

52:02 investments in AI and cancer and where he will have an impact. So I think Um That one of the You know, the strengths and weaknesses tend to go together. And a lot of tech people tend to think they go, Well, I've met him, and it was a perfectly reasonable conversation. And so therefore, you know, like, oh, that's just all media. Stuff.

52:21 It's media stuff. That he said that he did in other rooms that you weren't in. Right. But there tends to be this this this really strong. You know, kind of like no no, I met him and I had to do it. Gates did this the other day with Trump, which was disappointing. And and I think one of the things that's very important is to have a little bit of like look, just how a person talks to you is not necessarily how they actually, in fact, operate in the world. And you have to apply that. And so Yeah, I I've had a number of tech people try to say, RFK, he's great. I'm like just l look like for example In a in an alternative like hiring context, I prefer references.

53:00 to interview him. I prefer to have both. But reference checking is much better. And it's like I I've seen the references on RFK. Like Like that's part of the reason why it's like okay.

53:11 The this appointment will be measured And Thousands. Of American lives lost. Well, let's leave it at that then. Um all right, Scott and Reed, one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions.

53:24 Mm Okay, Scott and Reed, let's hear a prediction. I'm gonna go first, actually. I'll be at the White House. soon with Tracy Flick, the new press secretary. Uh the White House is welcoming podcasters to the uh briefing room. Uh Carolyn is is running it right now. Um she has decided that new media, which I agree with, including independent journalists, podcasters, and influencers will be able to question ask questions at briefings.

53:55 I welcome this. The Biden administration should have done it. Should have had different and not just the traditional people. So I'm super excited to go to the White House and I will be there this year. That's my prediction that Carolyn is gonna let me in, Tracy. Slash Whatever the heck she is. Thank you. Any comment?

54:10 I love that prediction. And by the way, I think it's a good thing to begin to broaden the kind of Uh set of different folks in the in the briefing room. I just think it's critical if you think Like. I am

54:23 This is the office of the president for all Americans. To have a uh a diversity of of access to it. I mean so for example, you have a You know, kind of a uh you know, got a democratic president. You still have Fox News. Obviously in the room. You need to have that.

54:39 That breadth of perspective to be representative to the American people. So I love that prediction. Yeah. I know she wants me there. She wants me on that wall. Well, First off, I'm on your prediction, I immediately read that and I sent Jim Acosta an email saying I need you to start a podcast. I want you back at those press Yeah. Those press free things. Um this is the CNN person for people who don't know who left uh when they tried to put him on at midnight. Um he started his own he has started a bunch of stuff on his own, which and he's a great guy. We love it. So

55:12 I I'm fascinated by what I think is a kind of a tectonic shift with deep seeker just The notion that W there might be a reasonable fact, similarly of the best AI models at a much lower price. I I'm I think that This

55:26 Regardless of what we find out, it was probably exaggerated. there is now, I think, a much greater likelihood we might be able to see cheap and cheerful kind of old old Navy like models. So my prediction is there's an entire layer of companies and pharmaceuticals in the consumer sector Не хад алокати агент, тухред, фад мільйон до for Capex for the cost

55:48 or OpEx for the cost of AI that they were gonna have to spend to rent these models to develop new drugs. come up with a better itinerary for your Air Airbnb stay, that all of a sudden are going to decide, wow, we're going to be able to get all of the great taste of AI. With a lot less calories, a lot less Op. And you're gonna see um a bunch of companies that were setting aside a ton of reserves because they thought this was gonna be a lot more expensive than it's gonna be. Recognize

56:18 Take those reserves back and it'll juice their bottom line. So I'm in the midst of trying to identify those kinds. I don't know if it's Airbnb. I don't know if it's Johnson and Johnson or Or Glaxo Smith Klein, but I think there's an entire layer of companies They just got great news that their capex on AI Could be

56:36 thirty, fifty, eighty percent less than they'd originally anticipated. Um, well I think that actually we will see uh a variety of those. I don't think it's necessarily because of Like the deep sea canoes. I think that we were actually already heading towards that. And I think that the Part of the agenic future. This is commenting on Scott's. Part of the Agenic Fut will be actually, in fact, compositions of smaller models that deliver. really effective services across a wide range.

57:03 uh for individuals, for organizations, and so on. So I I agree with his prediction, um, but not necessarily just as a as a deep seek response. Okay. Read your prediction. So I you know, I was thinking about this a little bit and I think That one thing that would be an an interesting

57:20 Mm. thing that people wouldn't expect. out of this is I think That Uh

57:26 The AI agents Well uh Trend. Uh Towards creating

57:32 um agents that will be m actually massively positive for human mental health. And I think that the m actual natural market dynamics will reach in that direction because As people interact with these agents, and I think I've already seen this from what you know my startup inflection did with Pi, that you know, it's helped helped a bunch of other agents. Following

57:53 this to be e q high EQ, kindness, and other kinds of things. And I think those will actually in fact help people feel more heard, more seen, uh, a dynamic of interaction that is more who we aspire to be and will actually help naturally through people just choosing the agents they want to interact with. um to an increase in kind of m uh mental health. Uh when well being. Well, unless, you know, as you know, I interviewed the mother of the character AI, there's the lawsuit there, they can take that turn where they shouldn't be around young people, for example, or they shouldn't you're talking about adults here, correct?

58:30 Uh, I'm talking about adults, although I think we also can and I think we should be much more careful about how we, you know, engage with children, um in various ways. That's saying it's one of the important things for the technology industry to get better. much better at. Um, but I tend to think that the the the natural dynamics of we will prefer the uh the agents that have this characteristic. Now I think part of the thing that it can be is Um, you know, having even agents that are trained to be very good in mental health.

59:00 Will also be good. So that they will so that that that that there are good agents. There there's my only issue is the potential for abuse is so massive and you're seeing it they the lack of care. You know what I mean? Like why didn't that kid why didn't that company alert it when the kid said suicide? Like for stuff like that. Like what where was why was that never there? And that's that's the problem. And their their argument is now that it's free speech. It w it was going to be section two thirty, but now it's these agents, these like like in that case, should bots have free speech. Like that's the kind of stuff we're gonna have to deal with as a society. Is it free speech when it's bot generated? Uh, I think at the moment it's definitely not free speech when it's bot generated. Yeah. Well, that's one of the issues we're gonna talk about, because it will be just off the fly. I I prefer kind agents to mean ones, but I suspect I th this is why I love Reed. He's such a sunny character, but I expect really mean agents because people like that, like abusive agents and that kind of thing. So

59:57 It may be that they prefer agents to be abusive to other people, but I think most people prefer them to be kind to them. I'm gonna as usual, uh take a darker turn on the thing. We'll see which which our future brings us. Um Elsewhere, uh in the Scott and Kara universe, uh this week on Prof G Markets, Scott spoke with Robert Armstrong, US financial commentator for the Financial Times. Let's listen. In the world we lived in last Friday. Having A great

1:00:25 AI model behind your applications either involved Building your own. Or going To ask OpenAI, can I run my application on top of your brilliantly good AI model? Now maybe this is great for Google, right? Maybe this is great for Microsoft, who were shoveling money on the assumption that they had to build it themselves at great expense. Interesting.

1:00:50 Interesting. Um okay, Scott and Reed, that's the show. Thank you for joining us, Reed and again, your new book is Super Agency. What could possibly go right with our AI future. Thank you, Reed again. Uh Scott, read us out. Today's show is produced by Larry Name and Zoe Marcus and Taylor Griffin. Ernie or Todd engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows, Mr. Vario, and Dan Shallon. Nishad Kerwa is Fox Media's executive producer of audio. Make sure you subscribe to the show. Wherever you listen to podcasts, thanks for listening to Pivot from New York magazine and box media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com slash pod. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Have a great weekend.

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