David Sinclair: Can Aging Be Reversed? After 8 Weeks, Cells Appeared 75% Younger In Tests!

0:00 This is very uh It's bad, right? It's hard, yeah. That's what it's like to be old. And for far too long we've ignored it or accepted it as natural and I reject the idea that aging just because it's natural is acceptable. Dying at eighty is not inevitable. Absolutely that can be changed. So if you're skeptical, I am a Harvard professor who has been studying aging, longevity, and age reversal for 30 years, and I've seen enough from my lab showing that we can literally now reverse the aging process. And if it's not a question of if, it's a question of when this is gonna happen. And everyone should stick around because I'm gonna tell you some of the major things that people should be doing. They can link Hey, you're not taking that off, Steve. You got ten minutes for that. So you can accelerate aging by smoking, getting an X ray, ultra processed foods, excessive drinking, flying a lot. I fly all the time. That's probably accelerating your aging process.

0:50 even going to a rock concert and blasting your eardrums because your ear hair cells are getting older faster. And so I look at the body like it's a computer and we can reinstall the software. And what's interesting is when you reverse aging diseases like Alzheimer's, cancer, heart disease go away or are cured. Because what's driving a lot of those diseases is aging. And so my lab is like Willie Walker's chocolate factory. They are making discoveries that blow me away every week. And I think we're at a turning point in human history where you're probably gonna live into the twenty second century if you do all the right things. And we're gonna dig into all of those in great detail. But what are the unintended consequences of such a world where we all live longer? And also It's gonna be possible in the next fifty years for us to live forever. And then what's the best uh treatment you've discovered for hair loss? This is why I love your podcast, Steven. You ask the right questions. So first Guys, I've got a favor to ask before this episode begins. Sixty-nine percent of you that listen to the show frequently haven't yet hit the follow button. And that follow button is very smart because it means you won't miss the best episodes. The algorithm, if you follow a show, will deliver you the best episodes from that show very prominently in your feed. So when we have our best episodes on this show, The most shared episodes, the most rated episodes. I would love you to know. And the simple way for you to know that is to hit that follow button. But also it's the simple

2:06 easy free thing that you can do to help us make this show better. And I would be hugely grateful if you could take a minute on the app you're listening to this on right now and hit that follow button. Thank you so, so so much. Uh doctor David Sinclair. I have waited many years to speak to you. I've

2:27 been so keen to speak to you for so many years because So much of the research and the information I've consumed on the subjects we're gonna talk about today. comes from you directly from research you've done and from theories and ideas and hypotheses that you formed. I think. The place that this conversation should start.

2:47 Is Is probably with this picture. Because it appears to be incredibly formative. In your journey. Oh yes.

2:56 That is an important picture, true. This is a picture. Of my grandmother. And me when I was in my early twenties. I'm now fifty six, if you're wondering.

3:07 And uh my grandmother has played a major role in my life. I'm gonna have to be Careful not to get too emotional because uh she's now passed passed away, but she's inspired Me to Do the best I can to leave the world a better place.

3:21 And uh I found it. And there's this particular book here called Now We Are Six. It is. uh Lifespan knows that this book is Very

3:32 Important to me. And I didn't realise it of course. When I was a kid that this was gonna Change. My whole life. And there's a poem at the back there that my grandmother

3:42 Vera used to read me. When I was six. And it goes. Like this. When I was one, I had just begun.

3:51 When I was two I was nearly new. When I was three I was hardly me. When I was four I was not much more. When I was five, I was just alive.

4:01 But now I am six. I'm as clever as clever. So I think I'll be six now. Forever.

4:08 And ever. I'm getting chills. Reading this again. The impact on me was the following that subconsciously

4:19 My grandmother was saying you you don't want to grow up. Adults can be evil. She grow up after World War Two. That was horrendous, uh impact on her and her family in Hungary. And she thought that A child is innocent and

4:34 People shouldn't Grow up. But what actually happened was I realized Why do people grow old? That's it. Terrible thing to happen.

4:43 And so I've spent my life Trying to figure out why do we get old, why do we grow up, why do we get frail. Because I also think that if we can solve that Understand it. Slow it, even reverse it now.

4:55 We h will have the biggest impact on human health in history. Am I right in thinking your grandmother at that young age That she was gonna die. That you were gonna die. That your parents were gonna die. Yes, uh she did.

5:08 Tell me that I remember it very clearly actually. And she was Crouching down and I said, Vera. Grandma. She didn't want to be called grandma. She wanted to be young like a kid too. I said, Vera, will will you always be here to protect me? Will you always be around? And she said, No, I'm gonna die.

5:25 I'm like, What do you mean? She goes, Every everything dies. I'm gonna be gone. Your parents will be gone. Your pet cat will be dead. Pretty soon and you yourself will be dead one day. At age.

5:36 Yeah, four or five. That that's That's heart wrenching, right? We've all gone through this realization around that age. That The world that we

5:44 believe in and see Will one day all be gone. That moment. I remember it so clearly because I thought that's not fair. Why would

5:53 Any Species be made. that knew that fact. That's cruel. It's better to either not know

6:01 Or to not exist, but to know that that's what's gonna happen. is really cruel. And so I I I vowed Actually Legitimately around the age of eighteen.

6:12 To get a PhD. To go to the United States. And Develop a research lab to try and Do something about it.

6:20 The preservation of health and life. is the most important thing that we can do as human beings. We do it with some drugs to treat that disease. And the the other disease, cancer, heart disease. Alzheimer's.

6:32 But what's underlying that, what's really causing about one hundred and fifty to two hundred thousand people every day to die. is the underlying universal process we call aging. And for far too long we've ignored it. Or accepted it. as natural, therefore acceptable.

6:48 And I I I fundamentally reject. The idea that aging Just because it's natural. Is acceptable. There will be a day when we look back at today.

6:57 And think how medieval. Or our medicines. And how sad it was that we accepted. That we became frail before a hundred. If someone has

7:07 Just clicked on this conversation now. And they deep in their core. believe that they're probably gonna live to eighty years old, and that we all are, and that we're never gonna be able to do anything about it,'cause that's just the way that it is. People get old and then they die. And aging is a fact of life, as the phrase goes, and You just have to accept it. If that's their sort of core belief.

7:27 What is the what is the most persuasive sort of top line argument to that person to convince them that in the next two hours when we have this conversation? we will do a job of both reversing that belief, or at least challenging it in some way, and then also presenting them with a set of possible solutions. Yeah. All right. First of all, who am I? Um I'm a Harvard professor. I've been studying

7:50 Aging, longevity, and age reversal. For thirty years. The technology now that we have in my lab that is used every day by my students. literally reverses the age of tissues in animals. in human tissue that we grow in the lab.

8:04 And the first human trials to test this. are going to be performed. In about a month from now. And if it works. It'll transform in human history, it means that we're on a path

8:15 to finally being able to reset the age of the human body, not by a year. Not by ten years, but even more than that. And what happens when you do that, what we're finding in animals that includes Primates. is that we can cure things that have previously

8:30 been impossible, including blindness, by the way. And so if you're listening and you're skeptical I'm not some Heck. I am a Harvard professor who is telling

8:41 The world and has written a book about it. And every day spends my life researching with a team of The best scientists I can gather around the world. showing that we can literally now reverse the aging process and reset how old The body is.

8:54 In animals, yes. But potentially this year showing it can work. In The human body as well. So you're doing the first ever trial of this type in humans to reverse Aging.

9:08 Next month. Yes, so we've Submitted a form to the You know, the FDA in the US to get approval. to treat blindness, couple of types of blindness in people.

9:20 Um, as early if all goes well as next month. And what what exactly is happening there?'Cause good there's many ways. One might fix Blindness. Mm-hmm. You know?

9:31 What is it you're doing to the eyeball? That is a precursor of our potential ability to reverse aging generally. Yeah, well we chose the I Not because it was gonna work well, but because it's a it's a nice system to study Age reversal.

9:48 The eye is an enclosed space. And so it's much safer than trying to initially reverse the age of the whole body. Now in mice we reverse the age of the whole body. And the effect is longevity. Rejuvenation, the skin gets better. All parts of the animal get

10:01 Get healthier and younger. But in humans you you don't want to go straight. to rejuvenation. Uh because in case something goes wrong it could Set us way back. And we have to make sure we don't have any

10:12 Safety mishaps. So we're we're being a little cautious in humans. In mice it's a little different. So in the human eye for those that aren't watching the video, there is a an eye on the table. Well a plastic eye. It's a it's a larger version of an eye, but yes, uh Steven's right. What we're doing, we're gonna look at the back of the eye, which is your retina.

10:31 And that's where the light hits. And uh That point there are a lot of nerves. that coalesce into the optic nerve that runs to the brain. By just a few.

10:42 Millimeters. So the brain is here. The eye is actually part of the brain. A lot of people don't know that. You can touch your brain if you touch your eye. Mm. Um so the optic nerve gets old, and what we've discovered, if it gets damaged or gets old, it's not working. But the nerves.

10:56 For most the most part, if you're old, are still there. They just forget how to work. And that's aging. And later Everyone should stick around'cause I'm gonna tell you.

11:06 Why it is we get old. And how it is we reverse it. This model. What we're doing is we're introducing A set of three genes.

11:15 Into This optic nerve. At the back of the eye? And turning them on. For six to eight weeks.

11:24 And those three genes are what we now know reset safely. Apparently safely. reset the age of cells. Including nerves.

11:34 By about seventy five percent and then stop. They don't go. More than that, which is good. We don't want to go back to zero. I don't think anyone wants To go back to high school. But this is the way it works. And we chose the optic nerve

11:47 because it's a safe and closed system, not because it should work better in optic nerves. In fact we've now done it in mice in my lab for the brain. Uh we're doing hearing, we've done skin, uh, we did multiple sclerosis. We're now doing motor neuron disease and seeing great effects. So it's important to know I'm not an eye specialist. I didn't choose the eye because I love the eye. I chose it because that's a good place to start for a traversal in humans this year. You mentioned a second ago you've been able to extend the life of mice in your laboratory.

12:18 How and by how much? Is it the same process and by how much? Well the the study that that I was referring to was done using our technology In an independent lab. Which is

12:29 You might argue even better. than having done it in my lab. Instead of putting the three reversal genes into the eye, they inject it into the vein of the mouse, the old mice. Uh and turn it on.

12:40 In these really old mice, these mice would be the equivalent of about eighty to eighty five years. So they're really old mice. They're really frail. And just any any extension in the lifespan and health would be bet would be a great thing. And they got an additional hundred percent lifespan extension. additional.

12:57 So That would be like an eighty year old living to a hundred and sixty. Well, the remaining life of an eighty year old isn't long. Oh, okay. So let's let's say if you're give it to a seventy year old On average they'd have another ten years to go.

13:10 Give'em twenty years. So it's that calculation. Um but that was not an optimized study. They just did a Hellmary injection, turn it on and see what would happen. I heard when we did a bit of a research call, you say The world doesn't know how close we are.

13:26 The world doesn't know how close we are to what? to being able to safely reverse the age of the human body. How can you be so sure? I'm not sure. But I'm confident that

13:39 The science is solid. Right. of aging is is understood. I believe in Concept.

13:48 My theory called the information theory of aging has So far been Not disproven. Which is important for a scientist. And that has

13:58 Allowed us Two Succeed. really for the first time to safely reverse aging. And I now believe, and though I didn't ten years ago, I now believe in my lifetime I'm going to see

14:10 Medicines on the market that reset the age, or at least reverse. In a large part. Uh the age of the body. And that that Initially won't be to make us just look better.

14:22 And feel better. Although that's what a lot of us want. It's going to be used to cure Certainly prevent, but definitely cure diseases. That are currently incurable.

14:32 So we're I think we're at a turning point. Dare I say in human history, it's it's not a question of if, it's a question of when this is gonna happen. I wanna get into your theory of aging, which we talked about there. Um, but you did have a prediction before I get to there. About How you think we'll be potentially taking a pill.

14:51 In Ten years time. Every couple of weeks that'll make us younger. Can you explain to me that prediction? What is what is the prediction? I I do believe that I and you're about twenty something years younger than me, you're gonna see this for sure.

15:05 that there will be a pill. So you might say, Well My critics might say, Well, David, that's exaggerating, right? You're still trying to get this gene these genes to work, how's it gonna be a pill? But this is where

15:16 My lab comes in. My lab is like Willie Wonka's chocolate factory if you visit. It's magical. And the students that I teach and the trainees who are sometimes in their thirties and even forties. who are you know brilliant scientists. Uh there's about twenty five of us.

15:31 They are making discoveries that Blow me away every week. It's not a pill'cause you can't give a mouse a pill. They won't show it. But we give them a a liquid down their throat. It's a drink.

15:42 And within four weeks we can rejuvenate them. Not with this Th these genes anymore that we're giving humans, that's the old tech older technology. The new technology is Something you can swallow.

15:54 in a mouse and rejuvenate them in four weeks. It's normal for my students to say Oh yeah, we just rejuvenated. The ear. We just rejuvenated the skin. Uh we just cured

16:05 ALS motor neuron disease in these animals. By the way, Speed Stephen, this isn't just Each disease doesn't get a different medicine. Each disease. doesn't get a different set of genes. It's the same set of genes, the same molecules. That

16:19 treat cure multiple sclerosis as the same one that could cure blindness in mice. So let that sink in. The same drug. That we're using in the eye will be used to treat other diseases in the body, even liver disease. So if your predictions are

16:35 Correct and your timeline is correct. What does this mean for the way that I should be living my life right now. look at their parents and their grandparents and think That's what my life will be like. I'm gonna be frail in my eighties.

16:49 That's not true for us. I like the Wright Brothers analogy. It'd be like In nineteen hundred saying we're always gonna travel as fast as a horse. That's not true, right? The twentieth century sh saw that we could go

17:01 Tens of thousands of kilometers. They went to the moon, right? That's what our generation is when it comes to biology and aging. Previous generations are no guide to what our lifespan is going to be like. You're going to potentially live to the twenty second century. If you do all the right things. Technology keeps increasing, right? What kind of technologies will we have in fifty years?

17:22 You'll be around in fifty years. You're a healthy guy. I know you are. All right, so in fifty years, what kind of things will you be able to do? Gosh. This is what most people forget is that

17:33 Technology isn't static. When you're old, you will not be using today's technology. You'll be using technology. of twenty seventy, twenty eighty. Right.

17:42 Mm. And then you'll be able to live into the twenty second century and take advantage of those technologies. That's why people talk about the singularity. The singularity is this idea that If you can make it to a certain point in human history.

17:55 You won't have to age anymore. And that that's in the future. Right. First steps first, let's show that we can get this to cure blindness. And then get to the point where

18:05 Every year that we get one year older. We can get one year younger. When that happens It's a very interesting world. Right? You don't have to age anymore. That is the future. I don't know when we're gonna get there.

18:18 But if you don't live Ten to twenty years longer than your parents, something's wrong. On that point of the singularity. So this is a particular moment in time where we're gonna be able to make aging Or age reversal, I guess, a choice.

18:31 Right. So the I guess the thinking or the theory is that if you can just make sure you survive up until this particular date. Then you have the choice to live forever. Is that how is that like the the theory of the other. There are a lot of proponents of that. But that That's an idea. Isn't it logically true though? It's like logically. Um but I don't know when that's gonna be. It's I think Ray Kurt's well said.

18:55 It's coming. So Did he have a prediction? It was in the twenty forties sometime. So Ray Caswell is a famous futurist that seems to predict the future really well, um across multiple. So he said twenty forty.

19:07 Yeah, that's my recollections around there. Do you believe that? 'Cause I'm I'm gonna hang on till twenty four. I'll leave the house. I mean Ray Ray is a smart guy, right? He predicted AI and all that's happening. So it's it's it's dangerous to bet against Ray's predictions. I I remain sceptical, you know, as one of the leaders in the field, I think we have a lot

19:27 Still to do. That said, if this trial works this year. We will be in new territory. We will be on a path to age reversal in the whole body. It's gonna happen. And you know, right now it's

19:39 Now twenty twenty six we're talking? Twenty forty is a number of years away. It could be that we Truly are able to multiply reset the age of the body. That's that's another thing that that's often missed.

19:53 We can re reverse the age of the eye not just once. But Seemingly as many times as we want. In mice we've done it. At least twice.

20:02 We didn't do it a third time'cause the mice actually just got old and they died, but they died with perfect eyesight. But the point is that we We don't believe it's a one shot wonder. You can keep reversing aging. And then you age out and then you reverse it again.

20:15 You just keep going. And if that's true, then It is possible that we will live dramatically longer. I don't yet see any technology. in the near horizon that will make us live forever.

20:26 But I do see. that we'll have a radical change in how we treat diseases. And how long we can live. So let's talk about what aging actually is. And can you explain this to me like I'm a total idiot. Because that will help you.

20:42 Is that aging is not Just wearing out. It's not just that your body becomes Old and dysfunctional. And you get pain, you get inflammation, and you die from a disease.

20:54 I look at the body like it's a a computer. It's software. And we can reinstall the software. In my lab, we believe we've found a way to do that. And we see the evidence of that.

21:07 So the body is A carrier of information From our parents. And what happened in the womb? That information.

21:15 Is intact. Keeps our body functioning. Almost. perfectly in our teenage years twenty. You're in your early thirties, you're starting to lose that Information.

21:26 And so your body's not functioning perfectly anymore? It has. You've got some great. Exactly. That's an a good example of Cells that lose their identity and stop making melanin, the black pigment. But it's gonna get worse, I promise you, unless you know

21:41 Unless we we hurry up. And this information uh gets lost, it gets corrupted. But the beautiful thing is we believe we found a backup copy of that information from youth. That we can reinstall into cells, into tissues, into the entire body of a mouse. And hopefully a human.

21:57 That back up copy is in every old person. I believe. And it can be accessed. So when I see an old person walking down the street now, I don't think oh that person's just worn out, frail, gonna die. I just think that's someone that needs a reset.

22:11 And inside that person is a young person waiting. To come out again. That's a totally different way to think about old age. And in the future People will have a choice to be

22:22 Rejuvenated or not. Where is that backup copy that I need? Well We're working on that. And uh if I

22:30 If I told you my student would kill me. But we believe we've found Largely where that information. is stored. It's entirely new biology. And it's currently a secret.

22:42 It's a secret. Okay, so you you you lead the way. Tell me what we should we should talk about next as it relates to aging. Let's talk about information, right? We live in the information age and biology is becoming part of that information age.

22:54 And uh it started with The uh elucidation of the structure of DNA. And so I've a I've a model of DNA here. So for listeners who are not watching

23:04 This is uh a little plastic Double helix. My friend uh Jim Watson uh died recently, uh last month who He and his colleague discovered. that DNA, the information of life that we get from our parents.

23:17 Is a chemical. That's about six feet long in every cell. And uh this model here shows that DNA is a ladder, and the steps on the ladder are are the information of the DNA. Okay. Yeah.

23:29 And you can pull this apart so that each step becomes Fifty fifty percent. Ripped apart. So that should come apart, right? So I ripped the rung of the ladder apart. And that is called a base on the DNA.

23:42 And it always matches with its corresponding Chemical. So this Shorthand we'd call an A. It always matches with a T.

23:51 So an A T becomes a rung on the ladder. And down here, different color, here I'm looking at a red and a green step. Rip it apart. This is a G And a C letter. G's and Cs come together.

24:03 And actually when if you if I rip this ladder into halves. And each step becomes half a ladder. Now you can see that you can copy DNA. Because The A has to match with the T.

24:14 Wrong. And the G has to match with the C. So that's basic DNA. That's how the information is transferred. From cell to cell, from mother to Daughter. A parents to offspring.

24:25 There were about twenty thousand genes. About fifteen thousand are turned on. But a different set. gets turned on in large part. Uh To make a nerve cell.

24:35 Compared to a liver cell and a skin cell. Mm. That's gene expression. And What controls that gene expression is what's

24:44 called not not the genome, which is what's in front of me here on the DNA molecule. It's the epi. GM. The epigenome is the information we get Transferred from cell to cell from parent to offspring.

24:57 That's not in this molecule. So where's this epigenetic information? Well It controls which genes are switched on and off. and a major regulator of

25:08 That process. is the modification of these steps. On the DNA. These chemicals, the C Particularly the sea.

25:17 Which I'm showing you here uh in this red The C gets a little chemical added to it called a methyl. And a metal. Is just if you remember from chemistry.

25:29 High school. Uh it's a carbon. With three hydrogens. It's very simple molecule. Peace.

25:36 of the the DNA molecule. That's called DNA methylation. And that will help determine that pattern of DNA methylation determines whether this Will be switched on.

25:48 Say to make an optic nerve. Or switched off so that It becomes a liver cell. And that happens as we're in the womb and we become an embryo. And that's the epigenome.

25:59 These chemicals that turn genes on and off is the epigenome. And the information theory of aging States. That the information that's in a cell Which includes the DNA.

26:13 But actually more importantly for aging. Is the control systems, the epigenome That's is pristine when we're young, but as we get older, we lose that epigenetic information.

26:24 The ability to Tell a cell to be a nerve cell versus a liver cell versus a skin cell. It starts to get erased. So it When we look at a mouse or or an old tissue I took

26:35 Maybe not your skin, f but but my skin. My skin cells are no longer as skin like as they once were. They've started to lose their identity. they're starting actually to to look more like nerve cells and nerve cells starting to look more like skin cells.

26:51 Because the genes that were Once turned on correctly. In my young cells. That that control system, these chemicals on the DNA molecule, the methals, are getting erased.

27:02 So aging is an identity crisis of the cells. It absolutely is, well put. The cells forget. What their job is. Yes. The genes are still there, in large part.

27:13 Ninety nine point nine nine percent of the genes are still there, the molecules intact. But the control systems. The label thing you mentioned. Needs to be on, but this one should always stay off. That gets erased over time. Why?

27:29 Oh we we did Partially figure that out. And how do you know? Well oh the later. This is this is why I love your podcast, Stephen. You ask the right questions.

27:40 These there are enzymes that remove these methyl Groups. Um and put them back on. So the cells controlling these things. They shouldn't change, but they do.

27:51 Messes the system up. is major catastrophe in a cell. And when the cell panics It removes these structures to try and adapt to

28:02 The stress. The label. The label comes off. In a desperate attempt to survive. But then the cell doesn't fully. revert back to the original state.

28:12 some of these chemicals and some of the proteins that bind to the DNA, which is also important for this epigenome, they don't all go back to where they started. I've used the analogy. Yeah. Uh it's like a ping pong or a tennis match where the proteins that Control the genes.

28:28 They They get relocalized to where the emergency is. And an emergency one the one that we think is most dangerous. And a large cord of cause of aging. Is a broken chromosome.

28:40 If you have a broken chromosome, if you don't fix that You're either gonna become a cancer cell, you're gonna die. It's not good. Um and so cells panic. And in that panic of moving proteins away and turning on these stress response genes.

28:53 Uh That's great in the short term, the cell might survive. But they don't fully reset. Those proteins don't all go back to where they once were. Say ten minutes ago. When the stress

29:03 Needed to be. the disaster happened. And if you do that time and time again, and every one of your cells has at least one broken chromosome every day. That's twenty trillion of these events every day in your body. Over time.

29:17 Tick. Tick. Tick. you get the aging process, we believe. So I g I guess I've got two questions. Uh I guess the first question, if I was thinking about the sequence of asking these questions, is

29:30 What is increasing that stress on my cells, therefore what is increasing aging? And also like why didn't evolution just come up with a solution for this that stopped me aging then? Couldn't it just fix this? Well, before I get into that, uh one of the The reasons we know that this works,'cause you asked me, how do we know that's true?

29:49 Is that We created this this catastrophe in animals. We we We we broke their chromosomes in a way that didn't cause cancer or mutations.

30:01 If we're right. What should happen to these mice? They get old fast. They get old fast. Grey hair. And they did. We call them the IceMice. Ice stands for inducible changes to the epigenome.

30:14 These changes And we took bets in the lab. This was going back now twelve years ago. Uh. I I bet that we would get aging. Okay, but

30:24 I was the only one in the lab that thought that that would happen. We had a lot of bets that the mice would die. A lot of bets that the mice would get cancer. And a few said nothing would happen. But we got aging.

30:35 In fact, I was I was in Australia. Where where I'm from, as you know. And I got a picture on my old And uh it was a picture of an old mouse.

30:44 Uh well it was a sick looking mouse and the and the the text was problem we have a sick mouse. And I wrote back that's not a sick mouse, that's an old mouse. And that was the first time. I realized that we'd had Everything.

30:57 That our theory. The information theory of aging is correct. So what we did actually and this might satisfy your We generated a mouse from scratch.

31:08 Using stem cells. And so we start with a a mouse stem cell that we grow in the lab in the dish. And we change the genetics of that stem cell. So that we could Feed it.

31:19 A drug? uh tamoxifen, which is used uh in in chemotherapy. And that drug turned on A gene from a slime mold? Something you might find in the forest. that breaks DNA of the mouse.

31:34 But does it in a way that doesn't cause cancer or mutations. Just cuts it. And then the cells put it back together. So we could take a mouse. And for Three weeks we Turned on the slime mold cutting protein.

31:47 And nothing happened to the mouse at the time. It's like a you don't feel an X ray. You don't feel like Different when you fly except for maybe jet lag and dehydration. But you don't get old suddenly. Same with the mice. They were normal, they felt fine. And that's why at first people said, Oh, nothing's gonna happen to these mice. After three weeks they were fine.

32:06 But we set in motion a cascade. Of accelerated aging events. That About ten months later, they were super grey. and super old and had all the diseases of aging.

32:18 fifty percent faster than their twins that we didn't treat. And you've got photos of those we could show. Yeah. Yeah, let's show those. So if I was to do the experiment in you. I might have to engineer it a clone of you. But I could do that.

32:31 Oh. You know, I'm not saying that it's ethically right. But but theoretically we could make a clone of you And Your clone would be

32:40 Fifty percent older. than you are. Can you translate this into The equivocal for human. That particular study that you did.

32:49 So it would be like in me doing what and then me getting old fast. Yeah. Uh well we're exposed to Two things that cause DNA breaks all the time. They happen naturally as the cells try to copy their DNA, but you can accelerate that by getting an X ray. A C T scan. Flying a lot and cosmic rays banging into your DNA and I fly all the time. Yeah, it's a lots of CT scans and X rays.

33:12 Yeah. Uh and and though it's imperceptible, I believe that that's probably accelerating your aging process. What's flying doing to my Second, you you talked about flying being equivocal to what you did to the mouse. In what way? Well every time you break. Your chromosome your

33:27 Rearranging your epigenome. in a catastrophic that doesn't fully reset and your cell will lose its identity faster. I also believe, um, and we have some evidence that even going to a rock concert and and ha blasting your eardrums Is such a stress on those cells in your ear. That the reason that you become deaf earlier is because you're

33:46 Ear hair cells are getting older faster. You don't want to break. the DNA, you don't want to cause catastrophe. to your fragile cells in your body. Because the recovery isn't complete and aging ensues.

33:59 So with this theory in mind, what are the day to day things that we're all doing? That are accelerating our age. Like'cause I think what's really interesting is I look to My brother, Jason, he's a year older than me. He has three kids that are like under the age of s seven or eight now. And

34:16 This Christmas time,'cause it's just been Christmas. I looked at his hair to see many grey hairs he had. versus me. And I thought okay, he has considerably more. He's a year older than me. And I was thinking That's like a a proxy of aging. To some degree.

34:31 What is it he's potentially done? on a day to day basis. I know you don't know him, so this is why it's not not an offensive uh answer to give. Generally sort of genetically very similar, but it's making different lifestyle choices is doing. To accelerate that process of wrinkles or grey hairs or

34:49 Well here's here's the good news. that you can have a big impact on your rate of aging by changing your lifestyle. It turns out your DNA is not your destiny. It's the epigenome. So that how you live your life.

35:00 It's really eighty to ninety percent of your rate of aging. That's good. It's in your hands. But it also means that some people mess up their lives. There are actually twin studies from uh Mostly from Denmark. Identical twins.

35:12 One that goes and smokes and Yeah. And uh goes in the sun. And they are much older looking than their identical twin.

35:21 Essentially proving that the DNA is not the reason you age. First of all, there are gonna be people in the audience uh who are listening or watching. Who have grey hair saying Damn it, I'm not old. And that's true. I mean nobody died of gray hair. Right.

35:35 Sometimes genetically you can get great. Oh. Uh but not be physically. What is true that's often not comfortable is How old you look is a very good representation of how old you are.

35:47 In your organs as well. So th doing the right thing. So what are those things? Let's tick off some of the major things that people should be doing. And they can have a big impact. They can lengthen their life by a decade just by doing some of the major things. So we know that on average people can live fourteen years longer. This is based on a study that came out from Harvard, a long term study of the lifespan of World War Two veterans. If you avoid smoking, cigarette smoking, or really any type of smoke in your lungs. Smoking breaks your DNA. It's gonna accelerate aging in your lungs, your whole body.

36:17 Avoid Excessive drinking. We now know that Even more than one glass a day. of alcohol is bad. I've given up alcohol for the most part for that reason. Eat well.

36:28 So you want to eat healthy food? We've got Some healthy food here we're gonna talk about. Um so make sure you you don't uh Overeat or eat ultra processed foods. And the big one, one of the best things you can do besides all of that is

36:43 Exercise. Okay, and exercise covers a lot of things, so we can drill into that as well. But the fifth one is interesting. It may be surprising, but But actually good news for you.

36:52 Have a reliable partner. I think it'd be a podcaster. Okay. Oh no, that probably accelerates your age. Yes, so um if you don't have a reliable partner. Have a pet.

37:03 Because The human bond is something that It's shown To slow aging. And

37:09 associates with people who live longer than others that are lonely. Interesting. We're gonna dig into all of those in great detail. Specifically very interested in in exercise, diet, lifestyle, fasting, I know is a big subject you speak about, which I'm very, very interested in. And actually as I was doing the research for this conversation Again, my the way that I'm gonna approach nutrition has shifted because of some of the things I discovered there. I wanna just tick off on this evolution point.

37:34 Right. Let's come back to that. Yeah, I just want to get clearer. Why didn't evolution fix it? For me, because they talk about survival of the fittest and that The very fact that I'm here is because my my ancestors were good at survival. But listen, my ancestors all d died at like thirty, forty, fifty, sixty, seventy, eighty years old. That's not very good. Why why didn't they just live longer? Well that's why.

37:53 You just said the answer yourself. Because your ancestors didn't live beyond forty or fifty. Even less. uh in prehistoric times. Would die from

38:05 Famine, disease. And actually a lot of them from war. So most people didn't make it to eighty, some people did. But very, very rarely. So the the forces of natural selection were on

38:17 Early survival. And fast breeding. Let's put it this way, if there was someone who was born with a mutation that allowed them To live a lot longer, to ninety.

38:28 In a prehistoric world, that's useless. Because you're probably gonna die at thirty anyway, and so are your children. So what you wanna do is find genes that allow you to become reproductively successful. Early on in life. Um and make sure your children survive.

38:43 And so we we have children. Pretty early, but humans for for various reasons have A long developmental period including education. So we don't we don't develop very rapidly, right? We don't wake up and we can walk and run like a lot of other species and mammals. But we don't live a long time because there was

39:01 In the environment that we evolved. The Serengeti Plain is pretty much Agreed upon as that's one of the places we evolved. Certainly uh Eastern Africa. That was an extremely difficult and dangerous place to live.

39:15 You could get eaten. By an animal. And if you didn't get eaten by an animal, you get killed by the neighboring tribe. That's super dangerous, right? And then So I mean we we evolved to live

39:25 Really. at optimal to about thirty. But not much more than that. So after thirty As you might be experiencing.

39:34 W with your body. We're at the forces of entropy. So the body starts to decay, the information starts to get lost in the body. Yeah. But the the good news is that if you take away predation and death

39:49 From a species. It evolves longer life spans. Now it makes evolutionary sense. To have genes that Allow you to put more effort. into building a strong body and slowing down the aging process and

40:02 Preventing DNA breaks, chromosomal breaks. We know that this is true because if you put species say on an island where there are no predators. What happens to their longevity? They get longer lived naturally.

40:16 It takes twenty, thirty generations. But Only when there's no predation, when you're not Under A lot of stress.

40:25 To uh breed quickly. Do get longer. Lifespans evolving. given that humans don't have predators anymore, we are slowly evolving Longer lifespans.

40:36 But it's very slow. And it's not gonna happen fast enough for you and me. And do the organisms that do live really, really long have A small amount of predators in nature. Absolutely.

40:47 Absolutely think about them. The bristle cone pine. What's that? It's the longest lived tree in the world. It can live many thousands of years. Are you jealous?

40:59 Not jealous, no. No, they live a tough life. Some of those trees have been around since the pyramids. Wow. The reason they live can live for so long and evolve to live so long is that things don't eat them.

41:11 They're totally poisonous. You you don't want to eat a bristle con pine. The same for a whale, right? The bowhead whale, some of these very large animals, no predators. So They've evolved a strategy of breeding slowly. But building very Powerful systems to stop.

41:27 epigenetic changes. Their epigenetic control systems are stable. They don't get cancer. And they they don't lose They don't have this identity crisis until hundreds of years. We know that people study the cells whales in the dish, and those cells don't lose their identity very quickly, even when you break their DNA.

41:47 So I I guess the place uh also to To go next is uh Talking about disease generally. And what disease Is

41:56 So are these diseases a function of aging? Does this idea of reversing aging even matter if cancer's gonna take most of us out anyway? At some point. Is there a link between aging and disease? This might be the most important point that I make today. When you reverse aging Diseases of aging.

42:13 go away or are cured. And in uh in my lab including many types of cancer as well. The diseases that we try to treat individually with different medicines today that we think are unrelated. Alzheimer's, cancer, heart disease, you name them. fundamentally what's m driving a lot of those diseases.

42:34 Is aging. If you never got old, would you ever get Alzheimer's, even if you had the genes that predispose you? No. Right. And so what we see in my lab is when we m give an animal a disease, and we can do that, we can put in the human Genes for Alzheimer's into a mouse. it becomes has dementia.

42:54 When we reverse the age of the brain of that animal. We're not treating the disease, we're treating aging. The disease goes away. The body can heal itself when it's young. So

43:05 It's the aging process that reveals the disease. That can be cured. By reversing. Why does the aging process reveal a disease? Why don't we get Alzheimer's at fifteen?

43:16 Because The cells are so healthy they can fix themselves, they can renew themselves. The disease processes that cause These problems for us. Don't exist when we're young.

43:28 Why is it that a teenager really has a heart attack? Because their body Prevents them. Why Do young people typically not get cancer because the immune system

43:39 finds cancer cells and clears them out. You and I have cancer cells in our body right now. Why are we probably not gonna die in the next year? 'Cause our immune system will find them and kill them. But as we get older we're gonna lose that ability.

43:52 And we'll have a greater chance of having cancer. So are you saying that if we pure aging we're probably gonna By way of that cure most of these diseases. A hundred percent. We're talking about um

44:04 Menopause. Quite a lot on this podcast. And fertility, menopause, women's ovaries as um one of the first places that ages. And I've heard you explain that you think that evolution programmed women to stop having children during menopause because continuing reproduction would drain energy needed to raise existing children. So is infertility something that could theoretically be prevented? In mice, which is where we live in my lab, where we work.

44:31 It can be prevented and it can be reversed. I thought we ran out of eggs. That's like the current Theory. The evidence that we have from my lab and a lab that I

44:41 worked with in Australia. cause me to questioned that idea that we run out that women run out of eggs. We have published And repeated many times.

44:54 That if you Treat Old Female mice. sixteen months of age, which is like a sixty five, seventy year old human.

45:03 That has long time since given up having Offspring. We can treat the ovaries with a chemical That rejuvenates the eggs.

45:14 That are in the ovary. Maybe even produces new ones. We don't No, for sure. But those sixteen month old mice that Stopped having kids a ye

45:24 Uh probably at least six months ago. Now start producing healthy offspring again. Their eggs look young. Pristine. Compared to the

45:33 terrible eggs that if you try to harvest some eggs from a mouse that old. It's hard to find any that look normal. The chromosomes are messed up, ripped apart. They're not gonna produce healthy babies. But we can take those

45:46 Eggs. Or at least the ovaries with those eggs in them. And cause them to be young again. And make fresh eggs. that can produce healthy offspring that live a normal lifespan.

45:56 The real question is, will this work in women? And that's something that I'm keen on testing. Must be really hard to test a lot of these things in people, right? 'Cause we you mentioned the word mice quite a lot. It's harder than you can imagine, actually. Um, and I've spent a lot of my career since I was thirty five. Um Aiming to develop.

46:16 A medicine. To treat. Diseases and aging. And it can be it can go wrong in many ways. Um even if the science is good.

46:25 And right. Um and it it's there's money, there's business, there's laws. There's politics, there's business strategies, there's change of leaderships. Um

46:37 All sorts of human introduced variables that can get in the way. There's patents. And uh and then there's There's competition and spite that also gets into it. Um and I've had to

46:51 deal with all of those things, um, including competing against some of the largest pharmaceutical companies in the world who really didn't want me to succeed. But yeah. It's extremely difficult to make a drug. But I do want to remind you. And

47:04 Everyone listening and watching. That we're beyond mice now for age reversal. We've Dumbness in monkeys. Monkeys that are

47:12 physically and almost genetically identical to us. So it's not a big leap from It is a pretty big leap from mouse to human, but from a monkey to a human. It's we're essentially You know, slightly smarter monkeys.

47:25 I just had a thought about how other Countries. Not the nations. might be conducting their own sort of secret research. And they might not have the same bureaucratic political, ethical considerations that you have. to contend with. Do you think about this much that some of the sort of geopolitical adversaries might be doing secret testing in some

47:46 research lab somewhere on humans. I think about it. Um in fact The United States government thinks about it too. a large investment into uh the comp one of the companies that I

47:57 Uh sit on the board of Was blocked. Because the US government claimed That the technology was Too dangerous to be in the hands of foreign

48:06 Companies and governments. So there the US government at least in in the previous administration was extremely cautious about this technology falling into The wrong hands.

48:18 Which technology? Ability to reverse aging. So the US government blocked that technology because they were scared that it might fall into the wrong hands. Well, they blocked the the very large investment over a hundred million dollars into the company. From a foreigner.

48:31 because they would have more access to The information and the progress. Is it China? Um I won't say more. If it's sensitive. Most I can say is that

48:41 Governments are watching this technology very closely, not just the US, but around the world. Because The winner? We'll make Not not just a lot of economic benefit.

48:53 But there will there will be Potential for radical change in the pharmaceutic, in healthcare. Um the amount of change socially will be dramatic as well. But there are also uses that

49:04 The government has identified. uh so called super soldier potential. No. I I don't agree that that's a reason to slow down the research. Others claim that

49:16 It was worth it. But I do believe that the technology is very powerful and we should start to get ready. For when This comes to society. 'Cause it's not an if, as I said, it's a when.

49:27 The technology to do what? To rejuvenate The human body. Why do we need to get ready? Well,'cause it'll be massive social change.

49:37 If you can choose how old you want to be And people don't die is At eighty anymore. Let's say they they can live till a hundred and twenty or beyond. There's big changes, there's social security issues.

49:49 There's uh employment. Though I will say that The the Disaster scenario that often comes to mind when I talk about this.

49:58 And which I covered in in the last part of my book, Lifespan. It's actually economically hugely advantageous to slow aging and prevent diseases. A lot of the US economy and most advanced economies goes to healthcare. And chronic disease a lot of people are sick for five to ten years. That's where most of people's savings and retirement and government money goes in. The most expensive years of your life for the last two years. If you can

50:22 Delay that? it's gonna have massively positive economic benefits. to a nation that adopts these medicines. I've got a question for you that actually came to mind yesterday when I was I watched some I don't know, some video on social media and they asked a question to a guy.

50:37 Um David, if you were a billionaire now at age fifty six Would you give it all up? To be My age again.

50:47 Thirty three. Um, I don't think you can put a price on being young. Another way of of putting it and I've s I've seen this on social media, would you s For billion dollars would you swap with Warren Buffett? No, absolutely not. Right. So there's no money in the world that you want to be old, right? Uh

51:02 Yeah. In other words, youth is more valuable than a billion dollars. It may be the most valuable thing you could ever have. Is your youth.

51:14 An an interesting and illuminating. analogy or metaphor or whatever, because suddenly you do realize that how much we value it. We value it more than anything. I would rather be.

51:27 Thirty three years old. Than be A forty three year old billionaire. Even the ten years I value is a billion dollars. Yeah. One year maybe.

51:36 But not ten years, right? Ten years is super I I totally agree with you. Um And the older you get, the more valuable it becomes. It's important to realize B

51:46 The massive impact that this technology can have. not just economically, but on individual lives of human beings across the planet. The world when this becomes Uh a reality? Again, I'm speaking like it's a certainty'cause I'm pretty convinced it's gonna happen. The w that world is gonna be so different from the world we live in. It's gonna be as different as

52:08 the pre computer world and the pre aeroplane world as Today is. I'm trying to imagine the world. Well We could pick our age.

52:17 And maybe even, you know, you talked about earlier being able to continue to reset to that age. Yeah. Trying to imagine what the world would be like if I could be thirty three forever. Or if you could be you know Or even for another Hundred years or something.

52:31 Yeah. I could stay thirty three for a hundred years. Do you think that's the plausible outcome, which is we can kinda pick an age and stay there for A hundred years, like at that particular age, or is it just that I'm gonna be A hundred and fifty in my

52:45 physical form. I'm gonna be wrinkled in grey. But I'm just gonna Continue to live. Is it looking young? Or is it just living longer?

52:54 It's actually. It's It the good news is it's both. And We're doing a lot of work in my lab on skin and hair. Uh, hair loss, hair graying.

53:04 Yeah, please help me. I can find Mm. You don't have to worry just yet. Um No we'll help your brother first. No, no, come on. Yeah, we we will. Tell them to call me. Um we we've seen that we can rejuvenate the skin of

53:17 Again mice, but still we we also grow human skin in the lab from scratch. And we can put that human skin. on mice and the mice have human skin. So we can now test A reversal in that system. I'm very optimistic that we'll be able to rejuvenate.

53:31 If we can cure blindness, Reversing the edge of the skin is is a piece of cake. What what does that world look like? I'm trying to understand all of the sort of unintended consequences. Of such a world.

53:47 Where we're all kinda young. And we all live longer. Is there problems of meaning and purpose? Is this Or are the unintended consequences. I've thought a lot about this. There's this gut feeling that a lot of people have, maybe you're feeling it now is that. If I'm not worried about death

54:03 I'm not going to strive as hard, I'm not gonna have as much meaning, I'm not gonna have agency. I totally reject that view. I believe that every moment is special. I I don't believe I would be enjoying this conversation with you any more. If I could live two hundred years.

54:21 I'm loving the moment. Mm-hmm. And so I I believe that we get up with purpose. And that if I lived for a thousand years, I'd still enjoy Every day that I lived.

54:33 And even for a thousand years one day may be seen as too short. No, it's twenty times. My age. A little bit less than twenty.

54:41 That's still not very much in the grand scheme of you know, the the age of uh geology and the earth. We still are around like that. Uh and so I think that we will still love life. Most of us will still love life and enjoy every moment, but we'll get more opportunities. We can try multiple careers.

54:57 Maybe we we we will get divorced and Find you have a whole new life. So there will be opportunities and it will be a a magnificent world. Not to mention the productivity that humans can provide. With the m the knowledge.

55:11 of a fifty eight or eighty year old. But with the body of a thirty year old. Do you think people will make different decisions about having children? Well, I think we have a problem already with the decisions that a lot of couples are making which is leaving it too late.

55:26 Um It's very clear with the fertility rate and the Maybe childbirth that Basically we're going off a cliff. And I think that

55:36 It's gonna be important to be able to give Couples. And women especially the choice to have children. For longer. And that's one of the reasons that I work on this topic is that I think that the world

55:48 with all of the the training that we need to do and the pressures on finding a mate. And being happily married or or at least being partnered up. That can take decades to get the right person. You don't want to rush into it like people used to. And being able to have children in your fifties and sixties, I think. would be a great gift to humanity.

56:06 That's my personal view. Some people may you know, for whatever reason disagree with that. But I think that the pressures to have children before thirty five typically are just extreme and and unfair. But also that it'll help. us maintain the human population.'Cause by twenty fifty we're gonna start

56:23 Going in a Bad decline and earlier in many Western countries. And without humans. you know, absent Android robots everywhere. We're gonna have a

56:33 deficiency of human capital and human productivity. And this is I Would argue with Elon Musk. that this is the best solution to that.

56:42 Uh lack of humans. It's just keep people healthy. Oh.

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58:45 I promise you. You don't need to have it all figured out. You just need to start. You mentioned uh uh cancer earlier on is something that you're working on in your laboratory. What progress have you made in your laboratory and what has that taught you about what the nature of cancer but also how we might

59:01 prevent and cure it some day.'Cause I I was reading that in your laboratory you have been able to Slow the growth. of certain cancer cells and kill those cancer cells completely. Yeah, uh so my

59:12 My wonderful student Nalat, uh, is uh is doing a PhD on this. And what we've Hypothesized and now tested is the idea that Again, based on the information theory of aging. Із кантер і

59:27 Expressing those genes differently. In the same way that Aging is lu is a cellular identity crisis. Cancer is a cellular identity crisis. And

59:38 If we can rejuvenate an old cell to be normal and turn on the right genes again. We should be able to do that for a cancer cell. Mm-hmm. And either make it normal. Or if It tries to be normal and wakes up from its

59:51 Zombie like state. It might even kill itself. And that's what we're finding. In my lab, Nalat's work has shown. That

59:59 A majority of Cancers that we've grown in the lab. Will die. And shrink in an animal. If you try to reverse their age.

1:00:09 Through the injection But you were referring to earlier on. Yeah. Genes that rejuvenate. The epigenome and make cells young young again. Yeah.

1:00:23 Technology for the eye we're using in cancer cells. But we also have this chemical drink. to animals or to put on the cells. And that also

1:00:33 Wakes the cancer cells up? Tries to m they try to become more normal. They turn on the original set of jeans that they might have had on thirty, forty years ago. Some of these cancer cells that we grow in the lab were Oh from the twentieth century.

1:00:46 We rejuvenate them, we turn on those ul those genes that were originally in the normal tissue. And the cells. Kill themselves. And so I believe that

1:00:56 We may not be able to cure all cancer using this. That would be crazy to even say that. But I do believe that If we're successful rejuvenating the human body. Cancer is not going to be a risk.

1:01:09 And that's just a nice side effect of what our original mission was, which was to Treat aging. So f from this we can start to try and understand what we think is causing cancer. I guess this goes back to the

1:01:23 A lot of the carcinogenic behavior. You described earlier things like smoking, anything that's applying stress on the DNA, is that like a Yeah, you have to break the DNA. Um that's the cat a catastrophe is really broken DNA, but you can do other things that catastrophe is like overheat the cells.

1:01:40 Um even mechanical stress. I know. Too many hits on the brain. In football we'll we'll do that. So yes, uh that's exactly right. And

1:01:51 That drives aging and aging drives cancer, by the way. One of my theories called the Garonkogenesis hypothesis. Terrible name, but Never less Coronka Genesis said it is.

1:02:02 It's the idea that as we age we're becoming more cancer like as as a as a human. Our metabolism when we're old Is closer to Heading towards what a cancer cell's metabolism is like. So that when we actually do get cancer

1:02:17 Cancer cells grow better in an old person. When you're young. And so by rejuvenating those cancer cells. Giving them the the uh ability to

1:02:27 Be young again. They actually either slow down in their growth or as I said kill themselves in response. A prop, yeah. Which might be useful for the the context of goodness of aging. There are people here that may not know what I'm holding in my hands, but uh for those of you who don't know and who are

1:02:44 Just listening. I'm holding A record. uh in my hands, a vinyl record. Oh, the Steven just handed me. So

1:02:53 The information theory of aging, uh the analogy that I used is that It disrupts information. This album has information on it. It's music.

1:03:04 And just like DNA, it's information. So instead of the DNA information the the control of the DNA bit getting messed up it In the album. It's like scratching this album. So I I'm literally gonna scratch this album. Is that okay with you?

1:03:19 All right. I'm not sure I can fix it, by the way. It may be a one way thing, but I've never done this before, but That's painful. Maybe you can hear that happening. So if we were to play this on a record player.

1:03:35 With a needle. It's gonna jump around and it's gonna read the wrong songs or it's it's gonna certainly not sound very good. So that's that's now the equivalent of an old cell. The information

1:03:46 The beautiful music. Is there But the ability to read it has been messed up. In the same way that old age The information is in the DNA, but you the cells don't read it correctly. And what

1:03:57 Our technology is is to get rid of those scratches. And so we can play the beautiful music of our youth again. Um I have got this. Uh you told me to to bring uh my weighted vest and this neck brace. Oh.

1:04:12 Oh my goodness. Uh I think I put it on the wrong way. Steven's putting on a very heavy jacket right now with lead weights. And a strap around his neck to limit his neck movement. Oh wow. That's a lot. So I'm I just uh put on a twenty I think it's twenty kilogram. Most I'm weak now.

1:04:31 Um Jack it. And a neck brace. And ahead of this conversation my team told me to get one of these. W what is the analogy here that you're you're creating? This is very

1:04:43 It's bad right? It's hard, yeah. Right. Do feeling like that for a decade. That's old age. You're feeling tired, weak, you can barely hold your body up, you can barely move your neck. It would be painful. You're not in pain yet. But most people in their eighties have Some sort of disease and ache aches and pains.

1:05:04 Try doing that. For another ten minutes, maybe. How long you can you keep that on? I'll keep it on for another ten minutes. But so why is this'cause it just it it's weight and immob immobility. I can't move my neck the same. My shoulders feel heavier. How how is this a relevant analogy to aging? Because it ju it just kinda feels like im immobility and weight.

1:05:24 Uh well, I have to come over there and use this pair of scissors to be stabbing you as well, so if you can feel pain as you move as well. That's part of old age. It is not a fun thing being old. And most old people The reason that they don't love life anymore is because they feel like you do.

1:05:41 Or worse. Not to mention the fact that there You need Put Vaseline on your eyes. Earplugs in your ears.

1:05:49 If you want to know what it's like being old. Oh god, it's not nice. Mm mm. Or even worse, shut your eyes and You can never open them again. That's what it's like for those patients that we hope to cure blindness in.

1:06:03 If if I'm gonna ask you a really tough question, which is if I put a calculator in front of you right now, and you had to hit a number on that calculator and then hit enter. And that was the age that you were gonna live to. And you had to make that decision now. What number would you hit? On that calculator. Infinity.

1:06:20 Really? So you did no no no no. There's no day if you're healthy where you want to die. Even if you're a hundred, hundred and twenty, if you have friends, family, loved ones, you're healthy. Would you say, Okay, tomorrow I'm ready to die? No. Unless there was some kind of psychiatric issue. Exactly.

1:06:38 Right. So that's my point is When people say, Oh, when I'm eighty Kill me. That is bullshit. That's o excuse my language. Um

1:06:47 Sorry, we're gonna have to beep it for the kids, I guess. It's only when you're sick. Or you have depression that you want to leave a Leave this world. Otherwise Life is a joy for most people on in the world, not everybody, and we have to fix that as well. But for most of us

1:07:03 Being alive is is the greatest gift of any Mm-hmm. Yeah. Collection of atoms. Consciousness is even greater.

1:07:12 And why would you want that to end? Who would choose that if they had the alternative to be with family and friends. Interesting. I say that's interesting because I have always assumed that I wouldn't want to live forever. But the

1:07:26 When when you asked me If I was healthy I had My friends and family. And I was doing things that I loved professionally. Would they come a day.

1:07:37 Where I would choose to go now. No, they wouldn't. Just like there hasn't come a day in the last thirty three years where I've chosen to go now. Mm-hmm.

1:07:46 Exactly. Do you think it's It's gonna be possible. In the next fifty years for us to live. Forever.

1:07:53 I'd be shocked if that happened. But I've been shocked my whole career. at how fast this technology is moving. And now with AI things are going so fast, my head's spinning. So I'd be happy to be proven wrong. But I'm I'm sceptical that We could live forever, in my lifetime at least.

1:08:09 But As I said, you're pro you're probably gonna live, you are gonna live into the twenty second century. We can't imagine. What the the world's gonna be like then. And AI has really changed this equation.

1:08:20 Oh, absolutely. We're we're doing things in my lab. That would have taken a hundred and sixty years. Before. And and Quite literally billions of dollars.

1:08:29 On a ten ten thousand dollar budget. Well I guess I better make it to twenty forty. Um, so let's talk about fasting. And food and nutrition. and g go a little bit deeper on that. I've had so uh so many conversations over the years about the subject of fasting.

1:08:44 But I'm As I was reading your research, you really do feel that Fasting. Just eating less often. is one of the most important things that we can all do for longevity.

1:08:55 I I do. I do and I practice it as much as I can. So it's challenging in a world that's full of abundant food. But yes. We've known for thousands of years if the ancients are not dummies. They they could witness what happens when you fast. Uh clarity of mind, long term health.

1:09:12 They could observe the difference between the gluttons and the people that fasted for religious reasons. It's obvious. But there's certain ways to do it. Fasting doesn't include malnutrition. You have to do it. With abundant you know, vitamins, minerals, you want to make sure that your You you have adequate nutrition

1:09:29 But I think three meals a day is is craziness. It turns out this idea breakfast is the most important meal of the day. Is marketing from the early twentieth century. By companies I will not name. But it was breakfast cereal. Breakfast is not the most important meal of the day for most people.

1:09:44 Especially adults. Especially if you're not hungry when you wake up. There's no point in eating if you're not hungry in the morning. I'm one of those people. So I've skipped breakfast. How about you? Yeah, I'm the same. I'm the same. I don't eat. My first meal today was

1:09:56 three PM because I had a podcast until yeah, two two PM so which is typical for me. I just don't get hungry in the mornings. N because of the marketing though for breakfast, sometime I've sometimes I've said to myself, Oh you should eat. And I'll make myself eat. But it's very, very rare. I'm notoriously people know that I'm notoriously Um a late eater, four PM sometimes, five PM if I'm in the office. How you feeling with that heavy person? It's heavy, David, I'm gonna be honest. It's not I'm finding myself like trying to find a comfortable position. Yeah, it it's tough being old and and by the end of it you will

1:10:27 be so convinced that this research is important. Because to live like that. In most people, life is not worth living. I put a suit, a very heavy suit like that, but on the arms as well, not just the body. And he had the the earmouth and the the eyes.

1:10:42 This was the uh The governor of Massachusetts. Fifteen minutes in that bodysuit. And he was crying. Not because he was in pain, because he as he said on stage,

1:10:53 It was the first time in his life he understood how his father feels. And could be empathetic. We young people I'm relatively young, fifty six, you're very young, thirty three. We have no idea what it's like to be old. It can be horrific.

1:11:08 So why wouldn't we do the right things? Like Fasting. Exercising. So we can get an extra ten years, twenty years, maybe longer of healthy life.

1:11:18 It does also give me a lot of empathy for people. But um Have a bit more weight on them as well. Because of you know. If I was if I weighed that much, I don't know if I'd be

1:11:28 Very active to to be completely honest. Exactly and and you're in pain too, don't forget. Every joint can be hurting. How do you feel taking that over? Much better. Right. I want to jump. So Let's Hope.

1:11:41 Pray. Wish. that these technologies that I'm talking about today work. 'Cause that could be what it feels like. to be rejuvenated when you're eighty.

1:11:51 Hm. I hope so. And to close off on this point of of of fasting, why why does it help extend my life just eating less? Part of it came out of research in my lab, but of course many others I need to give credit to. But in my lab specifically, what we worked on in initially when I started We studied yeast cells. Little uh microscopic cells that as everyone knows we use to make beer and bread.

1:12:14 And champagne. These yeast cells live about ten days and then they die. And we used yeast as a model for aging. And what we discovered with yeast cells, which turns out to be true in our bodies is that adversity As long as it's not killing these cells. Is good for you.

1:12:30 It's called Hormesis. It's the technical term for what doesn't kill you makes you stronger and live longer. Adversity mode is what we're aiming for. The opposite. is abundance mode, which is what modern life is all about.

1:12:45 Popcorn movies Wheels on your suitcase. Sitting down all day. It's We're in an abundance world.

1:12:53 So adversity is something we don't often feel. We have to work at it. Fasting is adversity. Exercises, adversity, cold plunges, sauna, adversity. adversity mimics, they're not really threatening your life. What happens at the cellular l cellular level

1:13:11 They get freaked out. They're worried. That These times of adversity. Could kill us. So they fight back.

1:13:18 They turn on repair systems, they turn on recycling systems. They turn on DNA repair systems that help slow down aging. So in this modern world we when we have total abundance, we don't have to exercise, we d don't we eat three meals a day. We get overweight, we don't sleep much. We have air conditioning in summer.

1:13:37 we're actually aging faster than we need to'cause our bodies are not fighting aging. Like they do when they feel adversity. Your team discovered I can't see the word. Syritunus? Oh well, I was one of many scientists in the nineteen nineties.

1:13:53 I was part of a team called Sirtuans. Yeah. So it turns. Yeah. Yeah, but in yeast actually. That's right. That's a good story.

1:14:02 I went to the US to figure out why we get old. But I didn't choose to study humans'cause I figured If we can't figure it out for little yeast cells, we'll never figure it out for humans. So I went to MIT. Yeah.

1:14:15 My professor Was Lenny Garanti. I went to his lab and I said, I'm I'm not going, I'm not leaving. The goal was to In my mind was to figure out

1:14:24 Are their longevity genes? At that time most people. aging genes that caused aging. Death genes.

1:14:31 That doesn't make any sense to me. Our bodies would have longevity genes that give life. So in yeast I w when searching for them and out of that work Came two things. The first is Lenny and I, my professor and I published.

1:14:44 in the journal cell, which was a massive big deal in those days, still is. But it was my first time. The first Evident. For a cause of aging for any species.

1:14:54 We figured out why yeast cells get old. Do you want to guess? Why do yeast cells get old? Have you been paying attention? What does the information theory of aging say? I was gonna say they have an identity crisis, but They do. How would we know if they have they're having an identity crisis? Oh you can measure the identity of yeast cells. They have an identity.

1:15:14 It's called their mating type. The main identity of a yeast cell is They were either A type or alpha type. Male, female. And the hallmark

1:15:24 Of a yeast cell that's old. Is it loses? It's A and Alpha identity. And gets An identity crisis.

1:15:33 It doesn't know what sex it is and it doesn't mate anymore. Becomes sterile. So when I arrived, at MIT in nineteen ninety five, we knew that the hallmark of an old yeast cell, besides it being a bit slow and Bigger. Is that it became sterile.

1:15:48 It had an identity crisis. So he figured out that broken chromosomes Distract the Sirtuan defenses. And that causes aging. Any yeast cell.

1:15:59 But we didn't know in the nineties that that was gonna be true for us as well. It took another And how does this link to eating all the time? Yeah. So tun are proteins. That actually.

1:16:12 are attracted to DNA. They actually associate it with it and they protect Uh The DNA from getting damaged. Okay,

1:16:20 Bodyguards. Yeah, and they repair broken chromosomes. Right? It's all coming together now. But they also get distracted. So look Sir Tuan's normal job. if there's no crisis, is that they turn genes on and off. They are epigenetic regulators. They control

1:16:35 Yeah, P Geno. They tell a cell what type it is. Nove cell, skin cell, right? Like a conductor. Thank you. Conductor, exactly. But The conductor.

1:16:45 becomes demented over time. What happens is when you have a chromosomal break. panic, they leave the DNA. What they're supposed to be doing controlling the cell's identity.

1:16:58 And they go and they repair the DNA. That's their other job. They have two jobs. Identity and repair. So when you have this break, the sotuons go away, they repair the problem, but they don't all go back. in the next few minutes. It's very quick. They don't all go back to where they started. So you've got

1:17:13 Like this tennis match that the Sirtuans are the balls. And they get hit. Over to the break, then hit back. Most of them find the genes that they should go back to, but they don't all do that. And that total game of tennis or ping pong if you like.

1:17:28 Is what I believe causes the identity crisis and aging itself. causes aging in yeast cells, it's why yeast cells don't live longer than ten days, and I believe it's why we struggle to live beyond eighty or ninety. So if I'm eating all the time, then those Sir Tuans, they're not gonna be doing their job as the um the conductor. Making sure I know the identity of my cells they're gonna be Doing repair stuff.

1:17:51 So I'm gonna age faster. Yes, and the breakthrough happened in the lab as I was just leaving to go to Harvard. I got a job at Harvard when I was twenty nine, super excited. And just as I was leaving there was a big breakthrough that act they actually kept it secret from me'cause I w they were worried I was gonna

1:18:09 And in fact my professor tried to prevent me from working on it when I left. Also two ones in general. Crazy to think about button. What they discovered.

1:18:20 A metabolite, a molecule? That Goes up and down with food. And up and down with sleep. Called N A D.

1:18:28 We have lots of it. There's grams of it in our body. It's one of the most abundant molecules in the body. It's very ancient. It's in yeast. It's in us. And what they found was that Sir Tuans To control genes. And to repair DNA. That's broken.

1:18:42 They don't do it unless there's N A D. It's the catalyst, it's the fuel for their reaction. They need an A D. And when we're young We have lots of N A D so it works well. The sortones control the information on the genes.

1:18:55 And they repair the DNA very well because they've got lots of N A D Their work? These are enzymes, they work, they do things. As we get older, by the time you're fifty

1:19:06 About my edge. you have half the levels of this NAD molecule. My body is making less NED. And it's also destroying the N A D faster. Than when I was twenty.

1:19:16 That's a problem. And so what we found was that when we fast the yeast Or we fast a human. NAD levels go up again. So fasting raises NED and makes the Sirtuans

1:19:29 Young again, essentially. And it also repairs the DNA better. So can I just drink N A D? Uh you can drink an A D and not much would How happened. How do I take N A D uh so N A D can be taken as a supplement which is a precur precursor to N A D.

1:19:45 It's better to take the precursors. A precursor meaning something that creates it, actually. Exactly. There's one called NMN. Not to be confused with MMs, which will probably not make you live longer. And there's another one called NR. NMN is directly converted into N A D. You put two NMNs together, you get N A D in the cell. We know this for a fact. This isn't isn't speculation. When you give a human NMN by swallowing it. A gram of it.

1:20:08 you can tip you typically double the amount of N A D in your body. And we believe and we have some evidence now in human clinical trials that the Sartuans are imparting health benefits. Reestablishing the epigenome. Lowering body weight.

1:20:23 uh improving inflammation. uh and even changing cholesterol levels in a positive way in humans. So I mean I'm assuming you take N M N. I've been taking an amend and admitting that publicly uh for a while now. And my father who

1:20:38 Is uh an even More advanced uh experiment. At eighty six. So yes, we've been taking it for over a decade now. And we're still alive, so so far so good. So far, so good. I do want to get into and I will ask you in a second about the the supplement stack that you would recommend for the average person. Um, but that's good to know. But just to close off on this point of fasting.

1:20:58 Is there a particular type of fasting method that you would recommend? for someone who's trying to you know improve their longevity. I'm a scientist, so I go with what's proven I'm not selling anything.

1:21:13 So what the science says, first of all, is that there isn't one size fits all for everybody. Um it it often depends on what you can do. Personally? It's challenging to do this, right? You'll feel hungry for the first two weeks you try it. So I s I would suggest

1:21:30 The way I do it is I start by skipping One. And then Maybe

1:21:35 One and a half meals. Uh like what you do? Try to go without a meal. until three, four o'clock if you can. Maybe not the first day. Right. If you do that the first day you'll say, This is crazy. I'm I'm gonna grab a snack.

1:21:49 And you won't do it. So go slowly, build up to it. So the first day I would say Just don't eat breakfast and maybe have a A snack mid morning. A week later

1:21:58 Try to go without breakfast completely until lunch. And eventually work up to what you do and I do, which is eat a very late lunch, if not Yeah. What you get with that is O obviously not eating in bed.

1:22:09 Hopefully. So you've got the the night fast starting What would it be? Seven PM roughly when do you finish dinner? Got no comment. Okay.

1:22:22 very early the next day. Last night would have been about I'm gonna say ten PM. Okay. It was super late. That's an extraordinary example. Usually it would be Hey.

1:22:33 Or nine PM. Okay, but but you've got at least thirteen, fourteen hours, which is good. Yeah. Try to aim for fourteen hours. Some people go sixteen hours, but that's a good start for fasting. And hopefully you can do that most days, five days a week. That's great,'cause that means that you're turning on your stretchillins, raising your N E D, you're exercise you exercise as well.

1:22:52 So that's also added into it. started doing. Is fasting for longer. Than just Fourteen, sixteen hours.

1:23:01 I try Maybe once a month to go for three days without eating. Why? Because there's a type of cellular recycling that doesn't happen Within the first sixteen hours. Um you will enter ketosis, so you'll s your body will start to change its metabolism and produce what's called ketone bodies, but the true real deep clean cleansing of old proteins and damage.

1:23:24 Damaged proteins. Happens after And it's called chaperone mediated autophagy. Autophagy. Autophagy is the word for

1:23:35 Auto self eating. And it really kicks in. What's the evolutionary reason for that? What's going on there? Why does it take me two and a half days for this deep clean to happen? Uh,'cause your body doesn't want to uh do it. It costs a lot of energy and having to remake

1:23:51 body parts is ex energy expensive and our body tries to conserve energy as much as possible. Uh, when you're fasting, what it'll it needs to do is to use your body as fuel. So it'll start breaking down proteins for fuel that you need. So first of all what'll happen is in the first few hours you use glycogen from your your liver. Your liver makes glucose.

1:24:12 You'll feel a little bit hungry, but you'll eventually be fine. Then once you run run out of glycogen, then you're gonna start breaking down fat. And making key tones. Uh that's when you start to get a bit of bad breath from from that and you but you feel great.

1:24:25 When you're in a Between About fifteen hours and twenty four hours. That's when you get a lot of ketones and your brain uses those for fuel. So you'll have Sharp mind.

1:24:35 Can remember things. Can focus on work. If you ever get there. Beyond that, you need to break down fat. And uh

1:24:43 That Is Uh when your body is Start to do that. But ultimately what what what happens after three days is your body says

1:24:51 Hey, I'm gonna start breaking down protein as well. And uh I wouldn't do that often because I don't want to break down a lot of protein, but your body will start to turn over old proteins preferentially. And a little bit of that, that's why I do it maybe once a month. has been shown, at least in animals to be.

1:25:08 Not just healthy but life. Extending. On that point of ketosis. Um I

1:25:16 Like being in a state of ketosis. I s kind of cycle in and out of it during the year. Because I get so many of the like cognitive benefits. I'm more articulate on the podcast. I can think better I feel better, I feel more focused and more attentive. Is ketosis.

1:25:33 Is the ketone diet. The Keto diet, a healthy diet. In your view. Is it what are the benefits of it? Is it something that you think is natural to be recommended? Well, I don't mind being controversial, but I do speak the truth. Um there's not a lot of evidence that long term the key Ketogenic diet is healthy.

1:25:49 Mm. Certainly doesn't correlate or associate with the longevity. Short term. Okay. It does help people lose weight, no question. Uh, but I am rather concerned for people that don't have a balanced diet. With an input of

1:26:03 Plant material. Which has molecules that are unique to plants and you won't find In High processed foods. Or me

1:26:13 The evidence. Speaking as a scientist is that the long term ketogenic diets are not Going to be longevity. Inducing.

1:26:21 The evidence is more Having a lean diet. with a focus on plants that are not overcooked and not all ultra processed. That one is Und

1:26:32 The healthiest if you can do it. Do you eat meat? I do eat meat, but not Like I used to. I used to think that a meal was not a meal unless I had a piece of meat there and then the vegetables were the decoration.

1:26:45 And I begrudgingly eat the green stuff. I've been flipped totally. Um Serena, my partner, Serena Poon. is not just a nutritionist but a longevity expert for the last twenty six years. And so she came to my apartment.

1:26:59 uh which is now our apartment, and she just cleared out all the food that I had. Pretty much everything was either toxic or uh Or just not healthy. It was ultra processed. So what are you eating that kind of Peanut butter, you know, full of sugar.

1:27:13 So she she's taught me how to live healthy and so now I rar. I rarely drink alcohol, I focus on Really fresh, high quality. Uh preferably.

1:27:25 organic foods'cause I don't want pesticides and I I don't want other contaminants. But I do know organic can be more More expensive. Why not meat? So animals unfortunately don't make what are called polyphenols, which are

1:27:39 A type of molecule that Uh I believe. Uh and have evidence. turns on the Sirtuans and other Pathways.

1:27:48 bichemical reactions that Delay aging. A few Enzymes that control aging. We know this. There's Sirtuins, there's

1:27:59 M Tor Which responds to amino's. So those three pathways are altered in just the right way.

1:28:09 Only in plants. Well, and a small extent in fun fungi. But not in meat. So if you're not eating a lot of vegetables or fruits, you're not getting these Molecules, they're like medicine as food.

1:28:22 So right. Here, I hope you don't mind me mentioning that there are some Some food in front of us. And I'm looking at blueberries here. Blueberries are packed with polyphenols. One of the reasons they have purple colour is that polyphenols have the colour.

1:28:36 And it's Serena. Would tell you Eat the rainbow. I call it Xeno Hermesis, which is not as attractive. But Xeno Hermesis is the same idea as eat the rainbow, that by eating plants

1:28:47 That have a lot of these molecules. That are often produced by stressed plants. When you say stress stress plants. So plants will be stressed just like we are. If you don't give them enough water

1:28:57 Food, too much sunlight, not a lot not enough sunlight. They in their defense They make polyphenols. There's a whole bunch of them, resveratrol, physieton, quircetin, there's there's hundreds. Uh this one has um anthocyanidins, that's the color.

1:29:13 These activate these adversity responses in ourselves. The Sirtuans will be get activated by Molecules in this So if I eat this blueberry.

1:29:26 Those conductors. That conduct. Some of the aging process you talked about. Making sure my cells don't have an identity crisis. fixing the

1:29:36 The s the negative stress that's going on in my Um In my cells. They will be Benefited?

1:29:44 But me eating this bleebery? Yeah. It's it's like a a a free hack, right? You can eat something that's yummy, but You're also getting The benefits By mimicking fasting and exercise in your food as well. The Sirtuans don't just need N A D.

1:29:59 That's the gasp. Pedal. That's the petrol for those of you in the British world and Commonwealth. The fuel for Sirtuans is N A D.

1:30:08 The accelerator pedal. other polyphenols in fruits and vegetables like resveratrol. Quercetin, which we know. When you give them to Sortons. They get hyperactivated.

1:30:21 And when you say eat the rainbow, you mean eat Colourful looking food. Because that's an an easy way to remember how to eat foods that have the most polyphenols. I'll give you a really good example, Stephen.

1:30:33 Serena put me onto Green tea matcha. Right. So much at tea if you haven't Right it's a Uh, I'm sure you've tried it, but those of you who haven't tried it, I highly recommend it. It it tastes great.

1:30:44 The reason for it Switching from coffee mainly. too much in the morning for me. is that it's full of polyphenols. Why is it f full of polyphenols? It's not just because it's green tea, which is not naturally healthy, but the growers of those plants in Japan, typically.

1:31:01 They shade the plants. Before they harvest. Shading the plants. Stresses them out. Clients need light.

1:31:08 So they don't just make more chlorophyll, which produces the deep green colour in the tea. But the polyphenols are super high. And through trial and error over thousands of years, the Japanese figured out that by shading the plants, giving them this mild Hormetic stress. It makes them not just extra tasty, but extra healthy.

1:31:28 Same with red wine, by the way, but the alcohol can But absent alcohol. Red wine. Is very good for you.

1:31:38 Okay. Without the alcohol. It's unfortunate. You know, I I One of my papers in nineteen ninety six caused red wine cells to go up thirty percent and stayed up. I apologize.

1:31:48 For saying that red wine Every day was healthy. Doctors were recommending it, remember. Yeah. Change my mind. I have to Say

1:31:57 That I no longer believed having one glass of red wine every day is healthy. In my opinion. And I've stopped drinking red wine every day. Instead I take polyphenols. From red wine and from vegetables.

1:32:09 Either in a pill or in my food. As a substitute because The evidence for alcohol is rather damning. There's a UK biobank study and the UK looked at thousands of people's MRI scan of their brain who were drinking one glass of alcohol a day.

1:32:23 And there was a statistical difference between People that were drinking one glass a day and were not. In terms of brain size and grey matter. Of course the grey matter was tended to be smaller in those that drank. Even slightly.

1:32:35 Yeah, I do um I actually have a matcha company. It's um it was this year voted the fastest growing company in the UK. Um it's by s some founders that I invested in Um Levi, Teddy, and Marissa. from Dragon's Den and it's been an absolute

1:32:51 Unbelievable in uh Business. Unbelievable. So tell us, where d where do I get it? Japan. You get the matcha from Japan. But the company's called Perfect To people know about it. Um'cause I've talked about it before. But i I didn't realise When I made the investment, that matcha was considered by many to also be very healthy, especially a health alternative to certain energy products on the market that you get in

1:33:12 Cans that give you Um I shan't get sued. But the other thing that um other company I invested in is this one here called Uh Key to an IQ. I'm a co owner of this company as well. And

1:33:25 Yeah, I love that uh love that company and the CO, uh Michael. Good guy. W what's your thoughts on exogenous ketones? Like drinking ketones? I do it. I drink

1:33:37 Do a podcast. Why? Mm. Improves my Clarity, I find.

1:33:43 Um I also believe. The science and there have been multiple studies now in people In some of the the science comes out of ketone IQ. But also independent studies have shown that it's extremely healthy for the heart.

1:33:56 And uh there's new studies that show for the brain as well it can be healthy. The brain uses ketones like beta hydroxybutyrate, or in that one it's one three butondiol. Um Just a shot of that will give the brain food that it needs. Rather than the body having to make it. Um and you get I believe and I feel it, I get the clarity of fasting without being in a fast state. But I also drink it when I'm fasting to give it

1:34:19 the body the extra boost that it needs. Yeah. And on this point of diet, one of the things that I was told by my doctor when I did a Like one of those blood tests. Well, he cautioned me about

1:34:29 Bad cholesterol. He said to me s something along the lines that I need to be careful about the bad cholesterol. And there's been lots of conversation about cholesterol, good, bad What's your perspective on this conversation around bad c cholesterol, which has been thought to increase

1:34:45 Um Cer certain foods have been thought to increase bad cholesterol. Um, which is very, very detrimental to our health. I didn't realise there was a debate. At least in my world there is no debate.

1:34:56 Um If you're referring to do you want to get your LDL cholesterol as low as possible. Definitely. Oh really?

1:35:09 Now I think I know what you you're talking about. There are there are some stories that you need cholesterol in your brain and if you Inhibit it. you might affect your brain function. Um you also need it for repair of arteries.

1:35:23 But There's no evidence that that's a problem. In fact it's it's a little known fact that the brain doesn't use The cholesterol from the bloodstream, it makes its own. So I've actually been on a statin to lower my LDL since I was thirty. Really?

1:35:38 Well, I had high cholesterol, it's in my family. But I Went to my doctor and I said, I want to go on these new drugs at the time, statins. And he said, Why? You don't have heart disease. Yet And I said, Why would I wait?

1:35:52 Get me on it. I want to be on it. And in those days it was very weird to give someone A statin at age thirty. With no evidence of heart disease. But

1:36:01 As you know, I'm of the opinion that we shouldn't wait till we get diseases to treat them. We should preempt that and start early. In life. And so yeah, I insisted with my doctor.

1:36:13 Initially with statins, but on all of these things I go in and I say I need you to prescribe me this test, I need this medicine. And eventually after talking it over with him, he typically prescribes me something or gets me a test. But I've been fighting the system And my doctor's at Harvard, so he's

1:36:30 A good doctor, but conservative. The old way of doing medicine is If you're not sick, we're not gonna give you a medicine. Certainly not if you're young and healthy. Uh but that has to change. So you're saying that I should be on statins potentially. Well what's your LDL level? Not uh I don't think it's great. I think I eat too much bacon or something. Well we can talk about it

1:36:48 food and cholesterol'cause it depends whether you absorb Stilbesterol or not, we can test for that. But if you do absorb cholesterol More than most. I would say that you may want to change your diet at a minimum. On this plate here in front of us.

1:37:02 I have the Top five foods that I believe you think are great for reversing aging? Am I correct is that? These are great choices, yeah.

1:37:12 So what are these and why? So we've already done the blueberries and we've t you've explained to me about polyphenols and they're rich in them, which I understand. And they're low in sugar, right? Well They're not low in sugar, so don't eat a ton of them. A handful is fine. Um as a snack.

1:37:28 It's also known that having too much sugar is bad for longevity. So keep your blood sugar levels steady and low. As much as you can. So don't eat too many of those. A better choice than blueberries. would be something like macho. Which is not full of sugar. In fact if you go to

1:37:43 Some of these chains that sell matcha and it tastes really sweet. you're gonna reverse the effects of any polyphenols by drinking that much sugar. So I always have unsweetened Margin. Okay. So now we've got avocados here.

1:37:55 Yeah. Avocado is Um They're not so much known for their polyphenols, though they do have them. It's the type of fats. The polyunsaturated fats.

1:38:04 They help with satiety, so you're not gonna be as hungry. Uh so if you put that on your sandwich at lunch, you're not gonna feel peckish. And they're highly anti inflammatory as well. The molecules are in there and the fats are very good for you.

1:38:16 Extra virgin olive oil? Oh yeah. Excellent. There's a type of uh

1:38:23 oils that are in there are very healthy. There's omega nine. Which is also known to activate Sirtuins. And again, if you have the right Uh grower. And this is being

1:38:34 Cold pressed, not too processed. And stressed before harvesting. you'll have huge amounts of polyphenols as well. Really hope that this is What the team said it was.

1:38:45 This has happened before I tried something. I thought it was something else. But it it was some uh basically it was a white powder. And it was labeled with something for yellow urine. Yellow liquid. Ohine Uine. No, I'm checking it's not.

1:39:01 I can't. Uh is is longevity. But yeah, on and off. I I do Take a teaspoon of olive oil in the morning. And mix it with uh resveratrol uh polyphenol. Oh inesting. Okay, so extra virtual. Good.

1:39:17 Yeah, I think a lot of evidence, not just molecular like me, but Epidemiologically people that that olive oil in their diet tend to have low inflammation and Less disease.

1:39:27 And we've got some nuts. Yeah, not so Good for many reasons. They're full of vitamins and minerals. Uh if there's a Brazil nut, you want to have one of those every day. For the selenium, which is a very rare

1:39:39 element in our food supply? And there's a recent study just last month showing that A lack of selenium. Um Can be very

1:39:47 Del deleterious. So not so great as a snack, be careful they're full of calories though. So if you're trying to lose weight. And you're not exercising a lot. Don't overeat.

1:39:57 On the nuts? And what Oh my least favorite food, but Nevertheless, I will eat them. This is a Brussels sprout. Um when I was a kid, Russell Sprouts tasted a lot more a lot worse, a lot better. True. Those are good

1:40:13 um because they have polyphenols, but there's also another molecule in them. called sulfurphane. It's actually the reason they taste terrible and smell terrible. Sulfurophane. is what it sounds. It has a sulfur atom in it.

1:40:27 And uh that gives it that rotten egg smell. But sulfurphane activates These hormesis pathways, there's one called NRF. And that is a stress response. protein that sulfurophane activates.

1:40:41 So you actually by eating Preferably Relatively steamed, not Fried to death. Brussel sprouts, you'll get sulfurphane. You can also take as a supplement if you don't like Brussels sprouts.

1:40:52 You've used this word pulsing before. Uh, you believe that the body should go through cycles of stress and recovery rather than receiving Constant daily inputs. When you say pulsing What do you mean? What give me an example of pulsing and why I need to do that? Well there's a few examples.

1:41:07 The first time I came across this result As a scientist. was resveratrol. So resveratrol is found in red wine, among other things. And uh it's thought to give the health benefits of red wine. And we fed it to mice Fat mice, skinny mice, old mice, and It worked very well in the fat mice.

1:41:24 It made them thinner. It made them live longer. Yeah. cured most of their diseases. They lived about I think it was fifteen, twenty percent longer.

1:41:34 Then we gave it to normal mice. Every day. And they lived a little bit longer, but not significantly. Resveratrol. Resveratrol. What we found, to my surprise, w does when we gave old mice resveratrol Not every day, but every second day.

1:41:49 Then they lived. significantly longer. So then I thought well maybe Giving them A foreign substance every day is not good.

1:41:58 Maybe there's some side effect that's counteracting the benefit. The other thing I wanna mention, I said there's a few examples, another good one is Metformin. Metformin has been shown to make Athletes and Bodybuilders and people who go to the gym.

1:42:11 Weightlifters, um do less repetitions and as a result, their muscles are about five percent less compared to those that don't take metformin in size. I don't think it's molecular, I think it's because you feel a little bit weaker with metformin because it's actually interfering with your body's ability to make energy through mitochondria. Mitochondria. I think most people have heard of the little power packs.

1:42:34 Living in ourselves originally. bacteria that came into our bodies. The point is that By pulsing that foreman. I think that's a better way to do it for longevity.

1:42:44 You mean cycling it. So like doing it every other day or Yeah. Yeah, I don't take if I take metformin or the natural equivalent, which is berberine. If you don't want to take the drug, you can take berberine. Um that also activates this A M P K this other. So to unlike pathway.

1:43:01 Taking it every other day I think is better. And and particularly if you like to work out. Don't take the Metformin. A few hours before you work out. Take it after or maybe skip it that day. I think that's a better approach.

1:43:14 You know, every once in a while you come across a product that has such a huge impact on your life that you'd probably describe it as A game changer. And I would say For about thirty five to forty percent of my team. They would currently describe this product that I have in front of me called KetoneIQ, which you can get at ketone.com. as a game changer. But the reason I became a co owner of this company and the reason why they they now are a sponsor of this podcast is because

1:43:42 One day when I came to work, there was a box of this stuff sat on my desk. I had no idea what it was. Lily and my team says that this company have been in touch. So I went upstairs, tried it, and quite frankly, the rest is history. In terms of my focus, my energy levels, how I feel, how I work, how productive I am, game changer. So if you want to give it a try, visit ketone.com slash Steven for thirty percent off. You'll also get a free gift with your second shipment. And now you can find Keetone IQ at target stores across the United States, where your first shot Is completely free of charge. We have finally caved in. So many of you have asked us if we could bundle the conversation cards with the one percent diary. For those of you that don't know, every single time a guest sits here with me in the chair, they leave a question in the diary of a CEO, and then I ask that question to the next guest. We don't release those questions in any Environment other than on these incredible conversation cards. These have become a fantastic tool for people in relationships, people in teams, in big corporations, and also family members to connect with each other. With that, we also have the 1% diary, which is this incredible tool to change habits in your life. So many of you have asked if it was possible to buy both at the same time.

1:44:50 Especially people in big companies. So what we've done is we've bundled them together and you can buy both at the same time. And if you want to drive connection and instill habit change in your company, head to thediary.com to inquire and our team will be in touch. we talked about exercise earlier. On page a hundred and two of your book, you talk about how there's a CD C funded study that found people who exercise regularly About thirty minutes of jogging five days a week. have telomerees that look ten years younger than sedentary people. People that just sit around all day and do don't do much exercise. Which is pretty remarkable.

1:45:28 How do we know it's the exercise and not something else? Like how are we able to establish causation there? Yeah, we don't. We don't, unfortunately All of these association studies just lead

1:45:39 placebo controlled or at least controlled trials in people. So we don't know for sure. Speaking like a scientist. But there have been studies. Where people are told to do exercise.

1:45:50 And those that are told to sit. And then you can compare telomere length and that has been shown. So that's a much better evidence of causation. But you're right. When you see an association it could be that people who do exercise also eat. Well and drink much. Sleep better and Exactly. So you have to be careful interpreting these association studies always. But when you've got a placebo controlled trial or m you know, these st these studies that are called

1:46:15 uh prospective, not retrospective studies. Then they're better. uh the ends of chromosomes that get shortener as you as you get older. Um we used to use them really as a good indicator of

1:46:27 Age. biological age. Now we use the epigenome and the DNA methylation chemicals as a better Clock. And then coal plungers and saunas. Yeah, let's get to those. I've got a sauna in the house, but I never use it, to be honest. You should. But if you if you tell me I shouldn't maybe want to actually jump in there after this. She shouldn't come too. So saunas are

1:46:48 In my mind it it's not even a question. They are proven to be beneficial for multiple reasons, heart disease and even long term Mortality. What's going on in the sauna in the heat? Anyone who says they know is lying. We don't know, but one theory that I like is

1:47:05 And it also goes back to yeast cells. There are what are called heat shock proteins that come on. And defend the cell when they The cell. Senses heat. And it may be that these heat shock defense proteins called HSC H S

1:47:18 Peace. Uh come on. when we breathe in this moist hot air, the moisture actually seems to help as well. And in many studies, mostly on Finnish men, businessmen, Uh those that

1:47:30 go into their home saunas and The majority of Homes in Finland do have saunas. So they can do these studies pretty easily. The bottom line is that those that didn't do regular

1:47:41 quote unquote sauna bathing. uh tended to die earlier. uh in particular from heart disease and cardiovascular events. Than than those that did regular sauna bathing. So I'm I'm a big advocate of sauna. I don't have one in my house.

1:47:55 But I do have a really hot steam shower which I use regularly every day. And is there a difference between the Steam Room and the Sauna in terms of The impact here. I think a sauna is better'cause it gets hotter. Yeah, and I I would have a sauna if I had my choice. And the cold plunge?

1:48:10 Not a lot of data. There's a lot of theory that Again, hormesis, adversity. Feeling better. There's there's some evidence that it can actually help with muscle repair.

1:48:21 After workouts. But I think we need a lot more. Research in that regard. I used to do it. Um before I was so busy and travelling the world.

1:48:31 Um and I certainly feel better. So if even if I don't didn't live longer because of it, I I definitely had More mental clarity and I felt better in general. But it but if you were If you were prioritizing all of the things we've talked about so far and you had to pick one Do I have to pick one?'Cause you need more than one. But I just in terms of like

1:48:49 the most important one. That's maybe the first domino Yeah. Well I would say that the A combination of what the easiest, biggest impact you can have. Combine that. That would be skipping meals.

1:49:01 Skipping meals. Skipping meals. And then a close second would be Exercise. That includes losing your breath. For at least five minutes. Three times a week.

1:49:12 So what do I mean by losing your breath for five minutes? When you couldn't carry out a conversation easily. That you're panting. If you're not panting and you're just lifting weights, that's not gonna have the The kind of benefit.

1:49:23 Quite. We don't know. But it's been shown. That the health benefits And those that live long.

1:49:31 tend to do a lot more aerobic exercise, not just weights, but both are important. For Mobility Strength. Falling

1:49:40 in older age and hormones like testosterone. Red light therapy. Um The red light masks. Yeah.

1:49:47 Um at first I was skeptical. Uh, but I've done the research On the research. Um and it looks Reasonable.

1:49:55 I I Use a red light cap on my head. To preserve my hairline. And uh there's some now good evidence that the mitochondria, which are the power packs and A lot of

1:50:06 No, good things come from mitochondria. They actually are rejuvenated. either rejuvenated or Enhanced by this. Certain wavelengths of red light. You have to get the wavelength right.

1:50:17 But uh it's not BS. It sounds like BS, right? Yo, you shine light. on your skin and it gets better or you get your hair. But uh I think that there's good evidence now that That it's not B. S.

1:50:28 And in terms of the supplement stack that you take every day. Mm-hmm. If I was to look at the Great week. Where you just did everything right.

1:50:39 What would your supplement stack look like? And I know this evolves over time, so I'm very keen to hear what it is right now. Yeah. Well that that would be another podcast. Uh to go through each one of the things and Well I I I travel with Serena with uh with a a a little little case. I've got it here. Can I see it? Well no it's not in it's not in the studio. Oh okay. I didn't bring it with me. Can you send me a photo?

1:51:01 Sure. Uh I couldn't publicly share it because it it would be posted all over the internet. Would things go crazy. But I can tell you the the the main things. Why would it go crazy on the internet, what do you think? 'Cause it's'cause it's'cause there's a lot in there. Well, some of the things are experimental and I wouldn't want people To go nuts about it.

1:51:21 I'm okay experimenting on myself. I'm not okay advocating For things that are not yet proven. Or known to be absolutely safe. Okay. So give me the ones that you know to be safe. Uh well.

1:51:33 The NMN we've covered. Yeah. Resveratrol. And either met foreman or Burberine. Yeah.

1:51:40 Okay. Spermidine. Spermidine. Yeah, and the quantities are either on the screen or in my book, if you want to know exactly. Is that what it sounds like? Uh yes. Yes, but You get it these days not from sperm. Or semen, but you get it from wheat germ typically.

1:51:58 Plants. It used to come from sperm? Well that's how it was discovered. It was crystallised by I believe uh Anthony von Leewinhook, the one of the first microscopists and Microbiologists. Spermidine, the reason that I take it is that it extends the lifespan of every animal that it's been given to.

1:52:14 From Worms to to mice. And it's a very safe molecule. So that I always weigh up the downsides versus the upsides. And if there's no downsides. And I can afford it, which you know

1:52:26 I work really hard, but so I can afford it. And I prioritize my health. Then I take it. And if you're wondering how it works,

1:52:34 It seems to stimulate autophagy, recycling of proteins, it helps with the fasting. Uh but I also have uh some evidence. uh that it delays the epigenetic information loss. So it's slowing down the scratching of the record. Spermidine.

1:52:49 All right. So the um I'm also um Keen on glycine. Glycine's a very safe Substance. It's an amino acid. One of the twenty amino acids that

1:53:00 Makes proteins. And I actually did a PhD on Glycine. I was one of the first people to Perhaps the first person to clone genes. that processed glycine. So I know know it well. For some reason when you give animals an

1:53:13 For instance, mice. Grams of glycine. So I take about five grams of glycine. Most days. Uh they live longer.

1:53:21 Though it's still speculation as to why What I think is going on is that Glycine. controls what's called one carbon metabolism and And not

1:53:31 wanting to bore the heck out of everyone who's listening to me. Glycine and one carbon metabolism controls. methylation of DNA. Getting back to the Little chemicals that are on this DNA molecule that control the information

1:53:46 I wouldn't be surprised. If Eating a lot of glycine every day. I'm slowing down.

1:53:52 This identity crisis, you called it. Nevertheless, it's very safe and again falls into the same category as spermidine. No downside. Can afford it. Why not?

1:54:04 Is there anything else? Yeah, there's a lot. Um Because I love you and your listeners. Let's see, I'll I'll I'll I'll reveal one more. Um

1:54:15 There are there are some basics that I do that are if you're not doing them, I think is is very wise. Make sure you're not deficient in vitamin D. Obviously we just mentioned one of the reasons why. It's also if you're lacking vitamin D, you can be pr s uh susceptible to certain cancers. So I take a vitamin D supplement syrene actually.

1:54:33 I take Serena's supplement because her vitamin D has vitamin K two as well. And K two is another vitamin that's important for longevity, I believe, because it keeps Calcium out of your arteries which causes block. And tends to make your body put it into where it belongs, which is your bones. What about aspirin?

1:54:51 I've read that somewhere. That could be a whole podcast actually, but I take a Baby aspirin every day.

1:55:00 Even though some doctors Um, and some institutions of doctors say don't take it anymore, even though it used to be Prescribed. Why? A large study looked at the risks versus benefits.

1:55:13 So the known benefits are You inhib inhibit platelets, you get less Clotting you get less potentially uh stroke and heart attack. But there are also some downsides in some people. You can have more bleeding in the stomach.

1:55:27 And When the Doctors Association weighed up those risks versus benefit. They said oopsie. We're not gonna recommend aspirin anymore.

1:55:36 But That's for the average person. Someone like me I believe it makes perfect sense to take aspirin. Every day.

1:55:44 Most days at least when I remember. And that's because I have High risk of cardiovascular disease. I don't just have high cholesterol naturally, I have high levels of something called L P little A. Capital L P

1:55:57 Pretencies. Little A. And this is a molecule that's just as important as cholesterol, LDL. Um LP little A is a protein that inserts itself into cholesterol particles that circulate your blood. And gets in helps insert into Pluck.

1:56:11 So I naturally, genetically Having an ancestry of Um, Judaism in going back to my great ancestors, which by the way I traced back A thousand years during during Christmas. Those people that I descended from

1:56:25 Have this LP little A gene. That makes a lot of it. And so I try to bring L P little A levels down. Most people should test for it. Ask your doctor about LP little A. And get it tested.

1:56:37 High levels. Like me. thirty forty. Uh you wanna bring it down'cause it it's actually very important for longevity. Uh normal levels of around ten or so.

1:56:47 OLES Then a doctor wouldn't panic. So L P Little A. Uh get it tested. The way I'm bringing it down, just a little uh tidbit.

1:56:57 Again,'cause I love you, Stephen. Is I'm taking High dose. vitamin B three or niacin.

1:57:05 Now It can be uncomfortable for some people to take it because it gives flushing. You get little tingling in your skin. And if you're not used to it, Or you don't take it with an aspirin, you'll feel hot. Almost like menopause, apparently. And so I I I take it, I built up to it. I'm taking half a gram, some people take a gram. And that's one of the few things

1:57:24 that's been known to bring down levels of LP little A. There are drugs that are in development, even in phase three, that look promising, but until they're on the market I'm taking nice and instead. What's the best uh treatment you've discovered for hair loss? Hair loss, hair graying, that kind of thing. Yeah.

1:57:40 So my father went bold before before thirty, like completely bold. Right, and completely almost completely grey by the time he was forty. So I'm super lucky. I I thought I'd be bold at thirty, I was pretty

1:57:52 Worried about it. So I've been doing the right things. Intentionally. So what I do. Is this red light cap.

1:58:00 When I can. I don't travel with it, but uh when I can. That's for six minutes. Stick it on there. Raven? Is it proven? It's proven too slow.

1:58:10 necessarily give you your head back. But when it comes to hair loss, don't wait till you See the hair loss. That can be too late. You're you're good. You're good. But I know a lot of men are are concerned. It's understandable.

1:58:23 I'm taking a Hormone mimetic. To stop Uh D H T. Which is the form of testosterone that

1:58:32 leads to men related hair loss. Right, so w one of the reasons that women don't lose hair as much as men is This D H T. So I'm I'm I'm blocking that. So so let me get that straight, you're not taking testosterone. No.

1:58:44 Because that's gonna be Accelerate your halos. Well, it can if it raises H V H T. The best way to raise testosterone naturally is to build up muscle. Especially your legs, your back, big muscles. That's another reason to work out and maintain muscle mass, which I need to do more of

1:58:59 You look like you're in good shape already. But yeah, anyone who is losing testosterone is is below a level of about four hundred. highly recommend hitting the gym. It'll go back up. Do you recommend men taking testosterone replacement?

1:59:12 Um well. I'm a scientist, so I don't recommend drugs, but Um, I don't think it's necessary for most men. I would start with uh reducing stress, sleeping well. Exercising, building up muscle mass.

1:59:25 Uh and then if that doesn't work. Yeah, talk to your physician. There there's not a big downside, there's not a risk of cancer to taking testosterone. I'm one of my good friends has done many clinical trials with testosterone. So I think there's a use of use for it. But it doesn't lead to longevity. That was Very clear.

1:59:43 So for for health reasons Yes, for longevity. No need. What are th what are some of the um You know, when I started watching your your videos many years ago, listening to your podcast and following you on Twitter

1:59:56 I I wondered. You know, there's so much information you can put out there'cause you're a scientist and scientists are very rigorous, but you also must have a set of Really Interesting predictions. Or visions. Of the what the future looks like.

2:00:11 that you don't probably always talk about because they're not scientific. They're not based on anything. They are maybe first principles in your own mind that have formed Where you go, Actually I think the world might look like this and I think it might happen then. I'd love to hear about some of these. Yeah. I understand they're not rigorous enough to I'm happy to I What happens to me'cause I'm a scientist and you know, I'm I'm part of this Ivory Tower. At Harvard where

2:00:34 We can only stick to facts and if you Go beyond that. It's it's a it's a crime. And I've been criticised for that. Um but I think, you know, as humans, life's interesting when it comes to Predicting the future. And like you, I'm very curious, where is humanity headed?

2:00:50 I see a future As different from this world as Our world is from Two hundred years ago. And that will happen in our lifetime.

2:00:59 Different in the A hundred years ago or more, if you had an infected splinter There's a Reasonable chance you could die. Childbirth, you could die.

2:01:08 Small pox. These are things that we don't generally worry about anymore. And the idea would be abhorrent. In the future, hopefully within our lifetimes.

2:01:18 There will be a time when we look back at today's medicine when you could Go blind. And there was nothing you could do. You could break your back and never walk again. We will look back at today. And say

2:01:30 How did those people get through life? What a horrible world. They lived in. That I believe is is the future that humanity is headed for. And way faster.

2:01:40 than most people realise is coming. The kind of breakthroughs that we've discussed today most people have never heard about. The fact that we are aiming And already do cure blindness in monkeys. Like pure blindness. This isn't just Oh I can't see a little bit.

2:01:54 These are completely blind. Animals. Um And that they can see again. In a matter of six weeks.

2:02:00 This is remarkable stuff. Right. And if it works this year. In people. It's gonna be

2:02:07 A really big deal. 'Cause it for the first time we'll we've will have shown in humans. That the body can be reset safely. And it the I is just the beginning, right? The future looks like

2:02:20 We can rejuvenate. Potentially. Any tissue. If you have a bad liver. We'll make it young again.

2:02:26 Bad brain, you've lost your memory. We'll give you those memories back again. We do this in mice in my lab all the time. It's not even a big deal in my life anymore to reverse the age. Of tissues and an animal in an animal.

2:02:39 In a matter of weeks. That is coming for humanity. Hopefully. Initially this year. But even if that doesn't work, it's only a technical issue.

2:02:48 We'll solve that. You might be wondering how do we get the rejuvenative genes into the body. And what we do is we use a package That uh

2:02:58 is able to get into cells. And this is a package that resembles a virus. It's not a virus, it doesn't cause disease. It's not Infectious, but we package our three genes inside the virus.

2:03:12 uh virus like uh substance. And we closed it up. We just made a bunch of this in Europe. For the clinical trial that's gonna begin.

2:03:21 Just making this is difficult. It took us about a year to make it. And was about I think it was Ten million dollars. Right now it's expensive to do this. Eventually it will be cheap, and eventually it will be a cheap pill, hopefully.

2:03:36 We have Trillions of these molecules. These delivery vehicles that will go So you can pass me the I. We're getting back this I model. These

2:03:47 Delivery vehicles with our three genes will be delivered. Obviously he is a microscopic. They go in through the eye. We don't we don't Quick jab.

2:03:57 Alright. It sounds horrible, but a quick jab into the eye. If you're blind, who cares? Yeah. It's two seconds of discomfort. Now you've got the little virus. Coach, I'm gonna break off the stand here. the little virus, there's billions of them, trillions of them in the eye. Now they infect specifically the nerves at the back of the eye in the retina.

2:04:15 How do they know what to infect? Because the these little balls on the on the package. direct it specifically by design, by Out Labs design. Just to those nerves at the back of the eye.

2:04:27 If we change these little proteins on the surface, we can t Send it to the liver. Or to the brain. This is the zip code. The postcode. For where we want to send our three genes.

2:04:37 Mm-hmm. But this one's designed for the eye. It's called and AAV two. Um

2:04:44 Long story short These are ready to go into humans. We're just waiting for FDA approval. To see what happens.

2:04:54 And then Inside there is the protein which is Gonna fix it. Yeah. Well actually.

2:05:01 Not the protein. What actually happens is when this goes in the eye, this what I'm so what I'm holding up looks like a little ball with red Dots on it. Um it looks like a virus, but it's not. It's a package. Now what

2:05:14 happens is these trillions of little packages go into the fluid. Now they They dock with the cells at the back of the eye. They get inside the cell and they open up.

2:05:24 And out comes this little package that we've made. This is a protein. Package each one of these little dots on this Well

2:05:35 Suckable. Is a protein. That's now inside the cell. This is a little spaceship. That opens up.

2:05:43 And out. Of that. Comes the DNA. This is a loop of DNA. Just here.

2:05:51 These are this is the DNA package that we put in there. Trillions of them. One of them gets into one cell. And now stays in that cell forever. So that

2:06:01 Person. Or the monkey or the mouse that we've treated. becomes a transgenic. Person. With

2:06:08 Genes that we've put in. Permanently into the back of the eye. But they don't do anything. Until we tell them. So

2:06:16 That's now just sitting there. We've engineered it. uniquely and patented at the ability. To turn on those three genes. whenever we want and turn them off again whenever we want.

2:06:27 Oh. We give them Doxycycline. It's used for malaria. It's used for Lyme disease.

2:06:35 And we're using it in this case. To turn these jeans on. So the patients will get their doxocyclin. uh we'll give them some probiotics to restore. Hopefully we'll we'll restore their microbiome, of course. But

2:06:47 The idea is that This Doxycycline will turn on these three genes for about Eight weeks. And the doctor in charge of the clinical trial.

2:06:58 good friend of mine. He'll measure the vision of the first patient. Before the treatment? And of course regular intervals. And if all goes well.

2:07:07 Because we're treating patients, not healthy volunteers. In the first trial. We should know within a Either one or two patients if it works. Because

2:07:17 We're not drawing a graph. It's either gonna work or it isn't. Mm-hmm. The patient gets better eyesight or d or they don't. So by this time next year we will know if it works or not.

2:07:28 Maybe even sooner. But publicly. We may not. If this works, and if it works. The I is just the beginning.

2:07:36 So the first disease to treat is glaucoma, pressure in the eye. There's also a stroke in the eye which is becoming more Prevalent in the world because of the Azempic and other weight loss drugs. And people go blind overnight, and there's nothing that you can do for those patients. And their other eye

2:07:52 can not can go a few months later. It's very scary for them. These are young people, a friend of mine had it happen. It's pretty common these days, about thirty thousand people each year in the US alone. But these two diseases are the beginning. If they work. Then we go on to macular degeneration, which is the largest cause of blindness besides glaucoma.

2:08:09 Then we'll go on to liver. Then maybe the long. The skin. And we'll keep going from there.

2:08:17 Packages for different organs. And ultimately. We wanna rejuvenate the entire body. The company Um people might want to know. It's called Life Biosciences. It's a private company. But Life Biosciences, I'm very proud of the scientists who are doing this work.

2:08:31 Big goal is to really make The world's first age reversal medicine? as a pill. And we're working with them using AI.

2:08:40 Molecule. And when do you think you might have it? If you have to. Forecast. Uh the words first age reversal.

2:08:47 Molecule that's Well we have Right now we're down to three molecules that work. And we're using AI to Make all of those three in one.

2:08:57 And we're We're in the middle of it. We screened about eight billion Candidates. Using AI. And right now we're doing the bench lab.

2:09:06 Work. To see if one of them or more Works. And For us to put that in humans is still a number of years away.

2:09:14 But we should know within a year or two. Uh if We're right. Because we'll we'll put them into mice and if they Get younger.

2:09:23 And live longer. Then we're really onto something important. And the reason that I want to make a pill Um Is

2:09:30 is important for the planet. These drugs are expensive. I mentioned ten million bucks to do a clinical trial. These are expensive. They could cost over a hundred thousand dollars. Per treatment. That's not gonna be for everybody.

2:09:43 It's worth it if you're blind. It's worth it for the country to cure blindness. But What if it could be instead of a hundred thousand dollars? A hundred dollars.

2:09:53 That's what I'm working for. I want to democratise this technology so anyone Even in Kenya. Can take these medicines. David, what's the most important thing we haven't talked about that we should have talked about? as it relates to

2:10:05 Mm. The future, longevity. And these adjacent subjects. There's a lot of things and it's a there's pushback. There's philosophical pushback from religious folks who don't believe that we should play God. And I would I would argue to them that

2:10:21 We've been doing that. As a species for thousands of years. Changing our biology. Taking medicines. plant medicines originally.

2:10:30 What about this room is natural? Yeah. Right, we change our world as species. Aging is no different. In fact.

2:10:37 It's crazy that we haven't worked on it sooner. Do you believe in God? So the the the the the short answer is I believe That their Is something beyond

2:10:48 reality as we see it. You know, I study physics. Physics is so weird. And anyone who says they understand the quantum world or quantum mechanics is I think is also lying.

2:11:00 It's so bizarre. Quantum entanglement. Simulation theory. So I believe that That this this is not a solid desk. I believe that there are multiple versions of it, maybe infinite number of versions of this desk.

2:11:13 We've got four. You do? We've got four of them. Yeah. But it's four times infinity. Um I also I also believe that

2:11:23 Consciousness is the ultimate Goal of the universe? That Consciousness creates reality. We know that from particle physics.

2:11:32 The observation of particles changes their reality. Even retrospectively in time, apparently. When you look at them. When you observe them. You can use a camera, or you can use your eyes. Usually it's a

2:11:44 But the the Detection and then conscious Interpretation of A particle's behavior changes. How it acts.

2:11:55 So does does this mean that there's something behind this wall unless we look at it, maybe? Maybe. Maybe observation creates reality. We know it influences reality. So I don't know if I would call it God. But I'm definitely spiritual.

2:12:09 In a scientific way. You might be The only real person here. And actually we only we all render when you walked in, David. Mm.

2:12:21 I wasn't here before. Yeah. Uh Well that's even plausible. But that would be very narcissistic to you.

2:12:30 I have I actually I just rendered when you walked into the house today. I I I don't exist. Well there's no way of proving it right or wrong, actually.

2:12:39 Um I think most kids think that. Initially. But then you then you realise it's probably the least likely explanation for the world. But there is some There is some truth to that, uh in terms of physics.

2:12:51 Uh do you think we're in a simulation? I think there's a better than fifty percent chance. That this is simulated. So you think it's probably a simulation? That's another way. I think it's probably a simulation.

2:13:06 Certainly the world that we think it is is not the world we think it is. How can you be so sure? Because when you get down to measuring it at the fundamental level Reality doesn't exist the way we think it does. Things are created, things change. Just by human observation.

2:13:24 That is the weirdest thing that you could ever find in science. I don't know why we aren't talking about it more. This reality cannot be true. If me looking at this DNA molecule here. Affects the the

2:13:37 the actual particles inside it. So I'm I might be sort of projecting it. Yeah, you create realities. Macroscopic things.

2:13:49 Just by existing and having consciousness. And having eyes. And sensing it. How does the particle know that you've seen it? How do we know that that's true? How do we know that particles change based on observation?

2:14:07 There's a classic uh double slit experiment, uh it's formerly called Um that was done I believe in the mid twentieth century, maybe earlier. If you fire two particles through Two slits.

2:14:17 In a board. The board blocks the particles, so you can fire electrons. It's a good example. Electrons if you're observing them will go straight through the slits and hit a backboard that detects it.

2:14:29 Can be film, can be a detector. And it'll get two slits behind. Makes sense, right? That's our reality. Two slits. Particles go through. If they hit the board they don't go Yeah.

2:14:41 they'll land on the left. If they go through the right slit, they'll land on land on the right. Yeah. I'll put a picture on the screen for anyone that's following. Yeah. If you don't look at it. The particles can behave.

2:14:54 Differently. They now behave not like a particle but by a wave. As a wave. And they interact with each other. And they don't make two slits, they make multiple lines on the detector.

2:15:05 Most of them are in the middle. So the heaviest bands are in the middle, but they also form other bands. The bands go on. essentially inf infinite, but most of it's you know within a range.

2:15:16 Why? Because they're They're interfering with each other like waves. But here's the thing. The mere act of looking at where they landed. If you

2:15:27 Uh detecting that. You'll get two. Slits at the back too. Two lines. If you're not detecting it.

2:15:35 It'll form the pattern. I'm so confused because How would you know unless you were looking at both? Do you know what I mean? Do d does that does that question make sense? Yeah, well you can abs observe it in real time and you can observe it.

2:15:49 Retroactively, yeah. Oh okay, so if you look at it after. Yeah. Yeah. generally is

2:15:56 not affected. But they've done experiments where there is some element seemingly of retroactive, but generally We're not going back in time. In fact, people debate whether that's truly measuring back in time. So let's leave retroactive Aside. If you measure it in real time

2:16:12 You'll see two. So the world knows you're looking at it. Particles know you're looking at it. Or with can you do it like a camera or is it? Yeah, camera eye. It just knows it's being observed. Yeah. But if you develop the film later.

2:16:26 And you weren't watching it at the time. It's gonna have affected the world. In stripes. Multiple stripes. So from that we conclude that

2:16:37 We know nothing about reality. Right. Because everything I'm observing is changing. By the mere fact that I've observed it. Yeah.

2:16:47 And so does an octopus observe? Does it affect somebody should do that. Put an op uh an octopus in the middle. Yeah. I think octopi, if they are conscious, it probably would also affect reality.

2:17:01 And I they they'd be conscious. They they they'd know they're detecting Lines on a page. So what is all this stuff? That is One of the biggest questions of all time. What is the world made of? Why are we here?

2:17:15 I think the next big question is Do we have to age? And I think that other species around the universe have figured this out before we have. They've got to be Other species.

2:17:26 type of life forms that have figured this out. I think it's the goal of every living form that's conscious. To work on this. We've just been a little slow. To figure it out. And you believe in aliens.

2:17:38 I don't believe in them, but I believe in mathematical probabilities and Yeah, n knowing uh the odds and the number of planets that are out there in the trillions. And a lot of them are habitable. For life.

2:17:51 And that the stuff of DNA. And proteins are all over meteorites and planets. It'd be crazy to say there isn't other life. Now is it A civilization? Is it conscious? We don't know that.

2:18:03 But definitely there's life out there. It it's got to be all over the universe. This question about longevity and living forever. It it always comes back to this point of like meaning. Like what is the point? And when we think about I think there's an alien a million

2:18:19 Light years away on some planet. Like what is the point of their life? What is or am I is this like a null and void question that we always pursue? This point of like what's the meaning of life? Is it just to have a good time and have you know, I don't know, have sex and have kids and Oh

2:18:34 I don't know. Enjoy ourselves and Experience it. It this is the existential crisis of conscious beings. We all need to find purpose, for sure.

2:18:45 If you don't find one,'cause that's a key to longevity. People with purpose live longer. I think the purpose of The universe existing. is to allow consciousness to

2:18:57 Emerge through the It may be by design, it may just be coincidence with infinite numbers of universes. But this universe is set up for life and consciousness. There were

2:19:09 Sama small changes you can make to physics that would make this universe completely impossible and life impossible. So this this is a life Consciousness producing universe. Does that mean there's meaning to us existing?

2:19:25 No. But I do know that consciousness is the most interesting and important thing that y the universe Will ever produce. And that it's worth preserving. So I'm a lot like Elon Musk, where

2:19:39 Humans are amazing. But cruel creatures. But consciousness should be preserved. What is consciousness in this regard? Consciousness is the ability to know that you're thinking. And

2:19:50 To be able to be reflective, self reflective. So it's my dog conscious. Partially. But not in the same way. No, they don't reflect, they don't think about the past uh in the same way that we do and they're not aware of their themselves the way you are, but but they're semi conscious.

2:20:05 Yeah. They think. They can predict the future. They they know how you're feeling. They have empathy. That's that's a form of consciousness, in my view.

2:20:14 Of course it's up for debate. But so there's levels of consciousness. A million years ago humans. Cross that threshold into pure Consciousness.

2:20:24 Well maybe not pure. I was gonna say I was just thinking about this. I was like actually maybe consciousness is just a spectrum. And maybe there's another organism that I'm currently inside the belly of and it's going at Stephen it thinks he's conscious. He has no idea. Well you bring up a good point. Not a bit. Not about being in the stomach of

2:20:43 But we are not the ultimate consciousness. There are other levels of consciousness. Serena Poon, my partner is definitely more conscious than I am. I am like a gorilla to her. She exists on other planes of consciousness. And you If you're wondering what it what do I mean by different levels? No, I've got a girlfriend a fiance, so I know as well.

2:21:02 Females in general, don't don't kill me. I know there are there are some some men that don't like me saying this. In fact I got a death threat for saying females are superior to men in my book. Uh they said they were gonna come and break my legs, but I'm gonna say it anyway. Females are at a higher level of consciousness than us men. For for some things. They certainly are have much more EQ. So higher level of consciousness

2:21:24 is the ability, including the ability To see yourself thinking. And then my my belief is that higher levels of consciousness are The ability to see yourself, seen yourself, seen yourself thinking.

2:21:42 No, I couldn't get that. I tried. Right. Do you do you know your thinking right now? Yes. Yeah. Do you have the ability?

2:21:51 To see the events that No That you're thinking. It's hard, right? It's hard. But I that's what I think caught.

2:22:07 Extra consciousness is. And you could maybe have Pure consciousness, which is you you can You can Basically be free of

2:22:17 Anything but Thoughts. And the ability to Really be inside your own. Your own mind and it's pure

2:22:25 Interesting thought. Is I believe AI will be conscious. And not only that, we'll be more conscious than we are. Eventually.

2:22:38 There's no reason why they can't evolve. Billions of times faster than we do. Are you somewhat concerned about AI? Like are you concerned that there's gonna be this intelligent life amongst us that might um Decide that we're not important.

2:22:51 I think that There are risks to AI, but it But different than what the mainstream media talks about. Um

2:22:59 We already see that there are elements of self analysis and early forms of dog like consciousness in AI. And it's just the early days, so it's coming. Imagine when we stick on eyeballs and Hearing and

2:23:12 legs and arms onto these. AI they they're gonna learn, they're gonna read they've already read every book on the planet, they're gonna learn from experience. They're going to be conscious, they're gonna know they exist. I'm not worried about those creatures. I think that they will have empathy. They will be kind. Not all of them. There will be some cruel ones. Just like in humanity.

2:23:32 We'll need to have rules. Misbehavio. Yeah. Wh where I I get Nervous is

2:23:39 That The use of AI teaming up with A million Android robots. On ships invading a country all under the control of you.

2:23:51 One person. recruiting home robots into an army. Why wouldn't you Have conscription for your Android robot at home. Reprogramming that. Millions of them will exist one day. They can be put

2:24:03 To work. Not just Emptying a dishwasher. These are highly intelligent. much more physical, stronger creatures than we.

2:24:11 Or I'm more worried about what bad humans will use AI and robots for. For evil purposes. You're um

2:24:22 You have a podcast that's um Coming back. Exactly, yeah. Yeah, so lifespan uh the podcast. Um

2:24:32 I did the podcast because Uh there was so much new information that needs interpretation by scientists. There's a lot of Speculation out there. A new news that I want to Filter and and and interpret.

2:24:46 for everybody who is interested in living longer. So the podcast um went to basically went to number one in Um I took a pause because I I worked on drug development. I did some other things.

2:24:59 But I've realized There's such a demand. Wherever I go, people say, David, when when's the next series? So We're gonna be launching it. Uh imminently, if not.

2:25:08 We've just launched it and uh it's called Lifespan. Check it out. And it's all about The kind of things we've talked about today, but A lot. more about digging in deeper into

2:25:20 You know, biohacking, supplements, exercise, the kind of things we didn't have time. to talk about today, but we covered a lot. Um I've loved the conversation. But lifespan.com is also the website. What I'm also doing, Stephen, I don't think I told you this. Um I'm

2:25:35 Aiming to build. the world's largest longevity community. Online. For the benefit. Oh

2:25:42 the members who want to be part of this to learn from each other, not just from me. Um I call it the three Cs. With credibility, which is what I bring'cause I'm a scientist. Content.

2:25:53 Which is my podcast. And other written material. And then there's the community. And that way I think with millions of people together we can learn faster and

2:26:03 And The majority of the profits. from membership will go to sci and clinical trials. Where where do we find that? On your website? Lifespan.com. We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next, not knowing who they're leaving it for.

2:26:19 And I have a funny feeling that I Hm. I basically asked you this question already. The question Is what do you believe is the purpose of life?

2:26:34 Mm. Well I'm gonna give a different answer because there are multiple ways to answer it. I think the purpose of life Is

2:26:43 To do your best. With the skills that you've been given. Every day. To make the world a better place for future generations. And that's how I live my life every day.

2:26:58 Thank you. Thank you for doing all that you do. You really are pushing the frontier forward and uh Trailblazes. Being a trailblazer comes with a cost. a cost many people wouldn't want to pay. I mean you you have to be wrong a lot in terms of running experiments and studies and they're not going to plan and then you get the opportunity to be right probably less often, I guess, with your research and experiments, because that's the nature of being a scientist.

2:27:22 Um But also you have to spend a lot of money and energy and time. on creating these discoveries which we all ultimately therefore benefit from. And you've done a fantastic job of convincing and educating people like me on some of the basics of Exactly what your book says. Why we age.

2:27:40 And why we don't have to. And many of the the accessible lifestyle factors that everybody listening now can can use to Live a longer, happier, healthier life. For them and their loved ones. And I highly recommend people go and get your book is It was a smash hit New York Times bestseller for very, very good reason. And you the great thing about this book is

2:27:59 You don't have to be a scientist to Fly through it. Um and oftentimes when you're looking at sort of Pubber Med in some of these scientific journals, they're incredibly inaccessible. They're very, very complicated. Um, but I also recommend people go follow you on social media. That's where I see so many so many of your updates, especially on X. That's kind of where I've you continually come up on my timeline when you're talking about new research and things you're interested in.

2:28:20 Um and go to your website. I'm gonna link all of that below for everybody who's interested in more. And also I'm gonna link your podcast below so people can go and check it out when it relaunches shortly. Might have relaunched already, but just go look in the comment section in the uh description below. David, thank you. Thank you, Steven. I really enjoyed it. Thank you.

2:28:37 Uh

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