#126 Nancy Sherman: Soldiers and Stoics

0:00 It is very hard In a world driven by how many h likes you have on a Facebook page or how many followers you have. So Remember that

0:12 You know, these metrics are not really your A measure of your worth. It's not that. It's what's inside and it That's your virtue.

0:21 And it will have its own kind of honor. It's the honor befitting. virtue. And that really is That's an incredibly important lesson right now. Welcome to the Knowledge Project. I'm your host, Shane Parish.

0:53 This podcast sharpens your mind by helping you master the best what other people have already figured out. If you're listening to this You're missing out. If you'd like special member only episodes, access before anyone else transcripts and other member only content. You can join at FS doc blog slash membership.

1:11 Check out the show notes for a link. Nancy Sherman is here today. Nancy is a professor of philosophy at Georgetown University with a focus on ancient Greek and Roman philosophy. Her most recent book is Stoic Warriors The Ancient Philosophy Behind the Military Mind. I wanted to talk to Nancy to continue my exploration of stoicism and get a more academic and military perspective around it.

1:35 We talk about emotions and how we can regain control of them, stoic techniques for making good decisions. Building resilience. dealing with reality and so much more. It's time. to listen and learn.

1:48 Oh I I'm curious as to what's your journey to philosophy. Oh, that begins a long time ago. So I think I probably was in high school and I found myself thinking about going to college, which was extremely exciting for me.

2:08 And I thought, what am I gonna study? Well what I really wanna do is learn about human beings, what makes a human being. I get to Brynmark. And lo and behold, the course I think that's gonna do it is anthropology, but anthropology is physical anthropology. That means

2:27 The professor rolled in with bones and fossils. And then I took a psychology course and I was sort of almost on my way to becoming a psychology major, but we were very influenced at the time. By um behaviorism. And by essentially running rats.

2:45 Um, and I had a very uh lovely one. whom I named Absalom. I was reading Faulkner at the time and You know, I learned a lot about Pressing levers and getting the pleasure center excited with pellets of food and whatnot, essentially stimulus.

3:03 And um Reinforcement skinner was really in vogue at the time. B Skinner. And I thought this is really not what I signed up for. But I ended up in philosophy and you know I haven't

3:15 I haven't turned back since. So that's it was a sort of a process of elimination. Um and the and there you have it. Uh one thing led to another. And and and you've ended up focusing on a very specific sort of angle, too, which is the connection between stoicism and military. How did that happen? Yeah, that's a rather interesting story. Sometime several decades ago I found myself being called up by

3:39 The Naval Academy and the Essentially the superintendent and the commandant there in Annapolis. I don't live too far from uh Annapolis, Maryland. And they had this massive cheating scandal. I mean, these happen every so often, but this one was a big compromise of what was called an electrical engineering double E. uh exam.

4:01 And They You know, we're under the glare of Washington DC. And it was a tough time for the Navy to begin with. So they called me and said, You do do you ever teach ethics? Well, I've been teaching ethics for a long time. Well do you think you could

4:17 Put together an ethics course for us and A week. Which is what I did, and I ended up staying there for almost three years, essentially on secondment from Georgetown. And It was very fascinating. I found myself teaching.

4:33 Midshipmen, which is essentially Navy cadets. Yeah. and officers, many of whom were My age, they had fought in Vietnam. And they also knew about stoicism, their own version.

4:48 They knew about What they called Suck it up and truck on. Or Less

4:55 Elegant. Embrace the suck. And this was stoicism for them. And it could have a small s or a big s But it essentially was deal with deprivation and one of their own.

5:09 Whom I came to interview. uh several times in connection with my work. Was a guy named Jim Stockdale. or James Bond stockdale.

5:19 Uh and he was the senior POW. In the Hanoi Hilton or the uh North Vietnamese prisoner of war camp that held American service member prison nurse. John McCain was there with him. Stockdale had

5:35 happened, stumbled on this little book By epictetus. Called the handbook. That he was the stock stock deal was given. You know, he memorized it on those long nights that you're on on a a carrier, in his case the the USS Ticonderoga.

5:51 And then The moment happened nineteen sixty five, he shot down. And he says as he's parachuting very famously. Five years down there at least I'm leaving the world of technology behind and entering the world of epictetis. So this memorized pithy wisdom, very very accessible pithy wisdom about control. really was his command, self command, you might say, for all those years. And I

6:17 I interviewed Stockdale very late in his life, you know? And he could kind of still memorize this this little booklet by heart. It was quite remarkable to me. He really had uh internalized it. So all this resonated with me. And I had to think Which stoic lessons are really the ones I want to endorse or promote? Um, and that resulted in a book.

6:41 Stoic warriors. And it was essentially the blessings and curses of being stoic. I wanted to promote a gentler stoicism than one I was seeing. in the military. Fast forward twenty years later we're in Two

6:57 What at the time were endless wars. My students at Georgetown are returning from war. Many Marines had getting their first degrees. And

7:09 I ended up being consulted a lot by the Pentagon and by pretty senior military officers. And I ended up sitting on some suicide review boards as an observer, but very high level Pentagon. uh events bringing the whole world into one room about Suicides on their watch.

7:27 I just thought the last thing I really want to be promoting is suck it up and truck on. I've often worked on the emotions and I really wanted to Destigmatize mental health for the military. That was what I was being asked to do. So

7:42 The stoicism I often think about. really rooted in text,'cause my background's in ancient philosophy. Is um what Kinds of lessons can the stoics give us that aren't the ones often ca characterized.

7:58 Like Go it alone grit, self-reliance. Do it solo. It's all about you and self help. Everything is in your control.

8:09 And if it isn't, just let it go. And especially the kind of resistance of reaching out beyond yourself. You're sort of the Marlboro man, man it up. Tough it out. That wasn't a a solution for the military. I mean after all a military is a cadre.

8:25 And it wasn't in all of the text. In fact a very very prominent theme in stoicism is that we are coordinated, we're connected. And we live in a cosmos that's Makes us

8:39 Cosmopolitan citizens of the universe a global world So so what does being stoic mean? Because I mean, um At a high level, it's sort of like it does appear to be embrace the suck. Um w w so what does it mean? How does it differentiate from that? How do we go deeper?

8:55 So stoicism K came to have a little s in a way that really you don't see with many philosophies. I don't know, we don't talk about Aristotle with a little less, or Maybe platonic. So with stoic

9:09 The one that has come to us is kind of almost through the British. Stiff upper lip. Right. Passionless. Maybe the monarchy best reflects it. You saw it in all the British tabloids when

9:22 Prince Philip died. Was the Que stoic enough? That kind of got is one strand of stoicism which is Try to manage your debilitat emotions. But it's not the only because if you really read More deeply.

9:39 The stoics with a big S have the most sophisticated emotion theory there is in the ancient world. They're three levels at least of emotions. What what are those three levels?

9:52 They have emotional skin in the game, as I say, in these three ways. One is But you have these uh pre emotions or proto emotions. You know, you shape s starts and startles.

10:04 You hear a loud sound and your body j jum a little bit. Or Seneca gives these great examples. You're n if you're general, you could be the bravest, most stoic general, but your knees knock a little bit when you hear the ch the clarion call to start marching. Or you turn green. If you're in a in a shipwreck.

10:23 You know, even if you're a sage, so your body's talking. Maybe not your mind. It's your body talking. And you can feel all those and they're probably very adaptive. Um someone like Joseph Ledou, who's a neurobiologist. at NYU and studies all the different levels of the brain, you know, refers to that that as a the sort of the low road emotions, the urmygdala, the limbic system.

10:46 Fight fight, we sometimes say. or autonomic arousals. They have so many descriptions of them. They're really prescient. in this regard. They're very forward thinking. The next step are ones that can get you into trouble. This is the second layer.

11:02 And these are the ones many of us Feel so we The way Seneca puts it, so he's now We're talking now a Roman statesman and writer and

11:12 spin doctor speech writer for Nero. He essentially says that you can Overstep reason? A little bit. You can Once started, these are hard to stop.

11:26 And so they're the as if they're the proto emotions that you give a cent to. That's their word. You endorse them. Is that like anger and fear and Yeah, anger and fear. Full throated anger and fear. And resentment. And revenge. And also grief that won't go away. Yeah, sort of

11:46 The depression we would might call it chronic grief these days. We might call it chronic grief syndromes. That just won't go away. So you You you endorse those first fleeting impulses that have come in. from the body talking. And you run with them.

12:04 And you run with them in a way where you can't stop. Fear. Desire Pleasure. Distress. And under those four

12:14 Everything falls, essentially. And they get the body going as well as the mind. And essentially and and they're essentially belief theorists about emotion, so they're cognitivists, which means It's not only an a an impulse that you give rise to, but it's a it's a kind of belief. That guy was out to hurt me. And I'm gonna be angry at him.

12:34 And your response to that bre uh to that ego bruise is I'm going to Fight back. In some way. So

12:43 These are the all the emotions that if you Let him run o Run amok. They can derail you. Now the stoics are developmentalists. So in this regard, again, they're really forward thinking.

12:56 They're into moral development. of the emotions. 'Cause that's Where they think you really can If you recalibrate your values, it has to be also with your emotions lining up to what you believe to be the right values.

13:11 So they think you should start trying to cultivate A good kind of fear. And they actually have a name for it. Which is Cautiousness.

13:22 They think you should start cultivating a good kind of desire and they give it a name. And this is the third layer. We're into the third layer. Absolutely, Shane. In this third layer is A kind of rational desire. So you're not going after something with sticky acquisitiveness.

13:41 Or kind of sticky attachment. So so you're reasoning, you're not reacting. You you're reacting a bit, but your reaction is filtered through your Reason. And it's slowed down a little bit. You've had a chance to sort of press the pause button a bit. mean you may not get fully there. This is in some ideal

14:02 way, but this is what you're after. You're kind of trying to slow down The response So that what you now come to think is a a the right way to react and the right way to see that thing outside that

14:17 so bruised your ego before isn't necessarily as an insult. You know, maybe the person was deluded, maybe Move on. Don't get pissed off by it or something of that sort. I think of it as you're not stuck on the object of

14:34 anger, you're not stuck on the object of desire, you're not stuck on the threat out there. You have a kind of healthy aversion to threat. You have a healthy approach to things that you want. And you have a healthy Well they also give you one for joy, a healthy

14:51 Pleasure. That's that's maybe, you know, this is their word rational exuberance, but you get the idea. It's actually our word for charity. The Greek word is chara and c h And it turns into charity. So it's a kind of charitable disposition of pl of pleasurableness that comes along with doing

15:11 doing things. So they're all calm. Equable. serene kinds of emotions. Do we get there? Most of us.

15:20 Not fully. Should we aspire to get there? Yeah. And so that third layer is the one that you kind of wanna Keep in mind as you try to

15:31 stem some of the more debilitating emotions that are hard to manage. How do we how do we do that though? Like so so a lot of that sounds like that moment of pause between the second and third layer, between feeling anger And then How do you teach yourself not to reason, but to give yourself a pause? So that you can reason. Right. And now your reason can take control of your emotions. Like how do we regain control of that? So the way they think about it.

16:00 is pretty graphic. They're thinking That You have some time. Now we uh we know we don't always have time. But they're reconstructing it as if you have time.

16:12 So You get you get this charged impulse that comes in. He's insulting me. You know, and then you get hot and heavy. I'm gonna get pissed off. I'm gonna get angry.

16:23 So they think that you can Monitor Your impression. We call it an observing ego. You watch yourself a little bit.

16:34 You watch how you're reacting or responding and to the impulse. Or to that. A front. And they even have ways of doing it. They're not gonna sit you down in a therapist's office. Right. But they are gonna tell you at the end of the day.

16:51 To do some journaling. Yeah. This is what Seneca says, you know, the night is The night's quiet, my wife is asleep, she knows my habits, and That's exactly what he says. And he says

17:05 You know, I got a little bit too angry at At the doorman. at the building who didn't recognize me. And didn't give Let me in.

17:14 Very pedestrian kind of response. I wasn't seated at the Head table. At the banquet. where all the dignitaries were.

17:25 I thought I should be. Well, maybe I'm a little too puffed up about that. So Th the pause is sometimes built in in reflective moments. And you know, that is what psychotherapy is about, and they called themselves

17:40 Therapists of the psyche. The Greek word is Therapia, therapy. Of the soul or the psyche. But it's it's themselves with themselves, whether in letter writing or

17:52 These meditations. They're called meditations. They're very discursive. It's not like Eastern meditation. So why does that work? Why does writing why is writing so effective? I mean, my hypothesis is sort of like it helps us reflect It helps us clarify our thinking and helps us see our thinking. It it puts a a visual to it. But not only that, it sort of like makes sense of our experience to ourselves. It's that process for us. If you put words On your thought.

18:20 And you actually articulate them a bit. And you drill that articulation into your head. They have actual practices, you know, they're not just meditate at the end of the day, but Think in advance, pre-rehearse some of the bad things that could happen to you.

18:37 at the you know during this day and that will get you set up for it. So they're very much about emotions get their Power. By having words attached to them by being discursive. By being fought

18:53 that is articulated. We know there's a gap. Between What you think. and say and what you actually do.

19:02 It's there's not a perfect go to there at all. And you know, some of my more radical colleagues in philosophy might say, You know, we need Moral enhancement. Drugs.

19:16 You know, and they'll go in for bioenhancement that closes the gap between cold cognition and hot emotion. So that we can really bring in line what it means to kill that many people. with that drone strike. You may be able to say it in your head, but do you really know what that feels like?

19:35 So We have to visualize and imagine. In order to give Meaning To these

19:43 uh to the emotional empowerment. And Sometimes It's not really just discourse, I think, or just uh words. They're they're the beginning psychotherapists, as I say. They're you know, in the tradition of any kind of Freudian or what whoever follows Freud words.

20:00 A d uh chatting. Putting words to your thought helps to do some chimney sweeping. But we may also just have to calm ourselves down. Right? We know that.

20:11 We know that some of the sped up emotions really result from are ticking too fast and we need to Cool down the autonomic.

20:22 System a little bit. And and are there ways to do that that we can use? I think there are. I mean two things come to mind. One is stoic and then one isn't. One of the stoic ideas is You press the pause button or you insert some space between the initial

20:40 input and the r reaction. And so They give you some time, they think. You can buy yourself some time. Between say Well, you know, all the all the biases we carry in our head that lead to

20:54 Pretty unreflective responses. Whether we're talking about police brutality. or sectarian violence or They think that if you can kind of slow down the initial impulse a little bit, you buy yourself a little bit of time. Now you may have to have some of those responses stored up from another time.

21:13 You know, and that would be where new journaling comes in. The the other side of this is to turn to Eastern practices. Which really are not about Chatting away in your head.

21:25 But rather the opposite. Not chatting in your head. kind of emptying it, so various kinds of mindful Practices where you You know, a mantra may be the thing that allows you to empty your head.

21:38 That's not particularly ancient Greco Roman. That's much more in the Eastern tradition, but I think a combination of them. is not a bad idea. I'm not at all for you know, thinking about bio enhancers to get us into a better moral place. Um but I think we've got some tools that are in i i in in front of us already.

22:00 What are some of the techniques that we can learn from philosophy and not specifically related to stoicism, but like what are some of the techniques we can learn to help us make better decisions? First I'll start with just some stoic ones, because I think they're very good. I thought. So one of them is this notion that you anticipate pretty visually. Some of the

22:22 dangers that could befall you that you're dreading. So they call it pre rehearse. The ills. You dwell a little bit in the future. And they

22:32 Graduate it. And I do this sometimes from Breaking a piece of Pottery in your kitchen. to getting really

22:41 annoyed at yourself or your spouse who did it. Two Think about that in advance so that you're not upended. If it happens. Third one.

22:52 Now The stakes get pretty high. Death. You may not want to think about death. You may not want to think about the death of your beloved. And here's a pretty caustic.

23:02 Practice, which my undergraduates think I'm crazy when I mentioned If your child should die or when you kiss your child goodbye in the morning, say to yourself, I always knew She was immortal. A mere mortal. Meaning

23:16 We don't live forever. So prepare yourself for your death or the death of your loved ones. Now again. It comes off In the worst, you know, small as stoic, like harsh, austere.

23:29 Far too stern. as a way to control your emotion of Uncontrolled grief. But my mother was turning ninety seven and hadn't yet mentioned death. And I thought this was

23:44 A problem as the person in charge of her health care. She was still very with it. She read two or three novels a week. But you know, the subject of death never came up. Nor did it ever come up. at her dining room table, which had three other women similarly senior.

24:03 They complained about the food. They complained about this, but never talked. Shop about death. So I thought I was gonna have to really figure out how we were gonna Approach this. Touchy subject, difficult subject. So I said to her

24:17 Um Just remind me. When we signed you up for This home. Did we sign you up for the immortality plan?

24:27 Because if we did, it's gonna be really expensive. Ha Now my mother knew nickels and dimes and you know, she grew up in the depression. I knew I had her attention. And this became

24:39 Our little Dance? Our joke? And so like anything in a relationship where you're negotiating hard subjects. And you're coming at it from different sides.

24:52 Finding the synchrony or the dance. is critical. And I really do think that helped. So Now I'm not suggesting the stoics themselves give you these little tips that you know for rapport building. But

25:06 I think when you're thinking about how to deal with some of the most frightening things in our life. Losing you know, losing a business or losing loved ones. a a relationship ending.

25:20 Not being blind. Cited. Is what the stoics try to offer you and they try to give you ways of not being blindsided. And they actually use the phrase, Dwell in the future.

25:33 Are are there non stoic ones that come to mind that you think are super useful for making better decisions, maybe Eastern or different branch? So Aristotle really thinks that you I mean he's gonna call spade a spade, one of the ways in which he thinks that you have to level with yourself is

25:53 when you're weak willed. whether it's refraining from Uh Something you know is unhealthy. Or getting out of a

26:02 An abusive relationship. And so he actually asks you to think about Mm. Ways in which you're picturing that moment. when you're confronted with

26:15 how you're gonna see a situation which will hinge on That plan you have. to get out of the relationship. Do you see the person then and there as

26:26 their former selves with all the attractive parts that you had thought about. Or can you keep Up front in the front of your screen, essentially. the idea of what is so abusive about this relationship or what is so hurtful. And he actually says you have two

26:42 Perceptions at that moment. And they compete with each other. One perception is You know, it it's great, it's fantastic. Another one is it's deleterious to my health. And it's about

26:55 Keeping one forward and the other one. uh behind. I think a lot of it is that you have to have a fuller story. about why the one that you think is really the better representation Of The situation

27:11 Should Trump. So it's not just we often think about strength of desire and I think that's that's wrong. You know, my desire for That next drink is much stronger than my desire for m for refraining. But it's not simply the strength. It has to do with the whole picture. What else hangs in that picture that has to do with

27:32 How you're representing it. So Philosophers are pretty good at thinking about Not just one off moments, but You know, the whole picture.

27:42 And and you know, much modern philosophy has really been about not just the slice At that moment. But The all the different ends that go into making up The

27:54 appeal of a certain moment for you. And I think that's what sometimes you have to keep in mind. We tend to just sort of think impulse. Yeah. Fast, strong. Input.

28:05 And what's the reaction to the fast strong input? I think the best of philosophy suggests that when you are seeing the world you It has so many facets. And you have to keep a pretty complex. picture in your head. We are bad at keeping complex pictures in our head.

28:24 We and I don't think media these days helps us either. I'm curious as to how we can use philosophy to reduce stress. Philosophy to reduce stress. So the Philosoph uh stoics are really about reducing

28:39 Perturbation, that's their word. Or disturbance. And so They Let me give you two possibilities.

28:48 They have a radical idea and that is you should just really hold on to Your good character. and build it. Because virtue is sufficient for flourishing and for happiness. And they'll

29:00 Ways in which you can Describe the things that are outside your virtue, your relationships, your Health ear.

29:10 Well fear. um political regime, all of that as Things that matter, they're to be preferred, but they shouldn't make or break your happiness. because the only thing that really matters is virtue. That's pretty stringent.

29:26 It has something really valuable in it. And that is We should hold on to our goodness. And realize that we're at peril.

29:35 When We sell it. Right. It comes at high costs, obviously. And some of us are

29:41 Better Uh sticking to our guns, you might say, than others. But it's certainly a goal, and I think it's totally cheapened these days. In

29:51 most of our walks because, you know, we're we're we're we're driven by popularity fans Money. So that's one thing that I think really matters to remember. Goodness matters.

30:04 And it matters in the public sphere, it matters in the private sphere. I often think We're modeling. I model in the classroom. All the time. I model in my family all the time. I

30:18 Try to model online. um if I'm interacting in social media. Um and that by modelling I don't mean theatrics or performance. I'm trying to Express.

30:30 In an outward way. What really matters to me. And try to convey it. Well. With knowing that

30:38 It's easy. To have character cheapened. And it's easy also to fall prey to false gods and false glory. Talk to me about virtue and goodness,'cause you seem to use them interchangeably there. Are they the same thing? Is there a difference between them?

30:54 That's a great question. So the Ancient Greeks and Romans really thought of virtue, that's a Roman uh Latin word, virtue. uh as excellence. The Greek word is erete and it means excellence. And another word for it is Uh excellence of your character is really goodness of your character.

31:14 So we think of goods more broadly as goods such as health, goods like Um wealth. um goods such as shelter. Food. uh means of living, etcetera.

31:26 The stoics following Socrates made this critical move. And they essentially said I'm going to define goods as very narrow. And they're

31:38 Going to be just the state of your character, the goodness of your character, which essentially is your virtuous or excellent character. Those other things that Are colloquially called goods and that may be Aristotle or Plato, his the predecessors

31:55 Also called goods. I'm gonna give them a different word. I won't even use the word external goods as opposed to inner or psychic goods. I'll call them indifference. Well that's a awful word. Because it immediately to

32:10 An English speaker's ear, it's Sounds like indifference. Which sounds like apathy. But it isn't. For them it means, yeah, you should prefer them and some are gonna be much more according to nature than others, and they're gonna be much more natural, like health over disease.

32:27 Having your friends versus losing your friends in an untimely way. Peace rather than war. But still because those kinds of goods are Aren't always good. Because sometimes

32:42 War is just. They're situationally good. They're situationally situated exactly right. Whereas virtue is never situationally good. It is always good.

32:54 And they wanna Draw that stripe. Brightly. So brightly They will actually say

33:02 Your virtue as the good. is the only one that matters for happiness. The other things are play supporting roles or You know, they're a supporting cast. and they'll give you a complicated story about how that works.

33:16 And actually they even say I don't think it's radical, but it sounds radical to some ears. Being good or being virtuous really is a matter of just being wise. It's knowing how to make the wise. choices in the world.

33:30 Especiw when the demands are really tough. Or as I was saying before, when Weakness of will might push you in this way, or the desire for glory or You know, the the Greeks are very worried about honor and glory. Um you know, of all the accolades that come with it. When that can

33:47 All those decorations can get you or think of fan mail. can really be the be all and end all your popularity. Did they tie honor and glory to virtue or did they 'Cause I'm trying to map that to today's world. It seems like society sort of maps glory, if you will, to sort of like status, wealth

34:07 uh so where you are in this hierarchy Um, whereas that seems like an unhealthy sort of Way to do it. If you're especially if you're not virtuous, if you achieve these things. And you've achieved them in a way that is non virtuous.

34:22 You've lived a life that is not meaningful then, right? Like you've you've been mutually exclusive from developing long term relationships with people that are meaningful. You've been mutually exclusive from being a good person, being exemplar for other people. Absolutely. So the traditional Uh Rag bag of goods in a a Greek world would be

34:43 Honor. Pleasure. Wisdom virtue. And then someone like Aristotle Aristotle will say, Well which one really is it? And he'll go with virtue and wisdom. And he'll say

34:55 You know, honor depends on other people and they may give it to you on false grounds. You may not have earned it. Same with glory. It depend it's again situational. It depends on other people. And it may not be rooted in the right kinds of Grounds. So

35:10 Even if traditionally And remember, he's cut the the Greeks are coming out of the world of Homer, where You're valor and your um your honor is everything. I'll say no, those

35:23 That archaic story about honor and glory got it wrong. It's really Not how many The Greek word for but for g uh honor is is pr the same word as prize. It's not how many prizes you have, or how how thick the band of stripes is and metals is on your on your breastplate if you're an officer.

35:43 And it's very conspicuous. You can see it across a room and you just read status right off of how many epaulettes or how many stripes the person has. It's not that. It's what's inside and it that's your virtue. And it will have its own kind of honor.

36:04 It's the honor befitting. virtue. And that really is You know. That's an incredibly important lesson right now. It is very hard.

36:14 In a world driven by how many h likes you have on a Facebook page or how many followers you have. If you're a social media person. Two Remember that

36:27 You know, these metrics are not really your A measure of your worth. Your worth has to do with something much different. So The story really is that goodness is virtue or virtue is wisdom. And that something like honor, glory

36:41 are very derivative. In the best case. They follow on your virtue, you know, like your virtue is honorable, you might say. That's an honorable person in an old but that's the kind of old fashioned meaning of honorable. Often it means Oh, that person has a lot of rank. That person got a lot of

36:59 A lot of metals. Right. Which is really interesting because At some level, like in biology, we're we're we're wired with a hierarchical instinct, right? We see it in animals, we see it in tribes, we see it in how we organize organizations. And then How we curb or direct that instinct.

37:17 becomes sort of like culture or philosophy or religion, which is saying that, you know To to achieve in the hierarchy You need to be a good person. You need to do do unto others as you would have them do unto you. You you have to and so we're directing behavior through culture, I think, which is really interesting. And so we're we're taking these human instincts that we have. And we're directing how we accomplish those things because if left to our own devices, I I imagine we would accomplish those things through any means possible.

37:50 Well yeah, so you go back to the idea But We do live in social worlds. And You know, the early Greek Roman philosophers were

38:00 Very keen on that. Think of Plato's Republic. Think of Aristotle's idea that we're social animals. And we have all these roles or persona that we wear. And many of those roles do involve status, and many of those

38:16 roles that involve status involve power. And many of the roles that involve status and involve power involve authority over other people. Rightly so or not. And That gets abused very, very quickly. It means there are inside groups and outside groups.

38:34 It means that there are wealth divisions um that come with power and authority. Um there are divides across gender. There are divides across race. uh ethnicity

38:47 And it's magnified in the military. Right, the military thrives on hierarchy. You can't have a military organization without Rank. Because you don't know who to follow.

38:58 And The rank is Conspicuous. Because as I say it's It's magnified on a uniform. In fact, I I I was just as saying I was at the Naval Academy and I forgot how to read all the stripes.

39:10 You know, I forgot, oh, this one's an ensign and this one is a cat and the guy was, you know, a Navy captain, which translates into a marine colonel, and he was more over a SEAL, and I didn't read that, I didn't pick up all the signs and insignias. And that was a sort of a major faux pas on my part. You know, you're supposed to be able to read really fast. Almost across a room. where you stand relative to that person because after all that person could Lead you in battle.

39:41 So it has its place. It gets abused so quickly. And it also becomes Deferential. You know, we have

39:51 Bad. Notions of deference. To whom we need to defer. Authority. And also sometimes we raise the wrong persons. It's not just clear because I'm now a woman speaking.

40:03 that you should defer to me on all matters that have to do with My gender. Nor if I were black, you know, you should defer to me on all matters because I'm the person of color in the room. We really don't know how I think to sometimes Be wise about the

40:21 The roles we wear. And sometimes that we wear in very, very uh deep For some people not easily changeable ways. You know, some of them are, but some of them aren't.

40:33 Are there there philosophical techniques that you've haven't mentioned so far that we can sort of use to build resilience? Yeah. And I'm gonna draw on the stoics for this for a moment because I think they're pretty brilliant in this regard. So resilience Is a word that really means to sort of bounce a bit to to not break.

40:54 To not break under pressure. And so we think about it psychologically. As being Adaptive. Not being brittle.

41:04 Or not being rigid. Being like water, right? Like taking the shape of whatever's happening. being able to adapt to your circumstances, but not s adapt where you're just a a blob that has no spine and quite the you know, doesn't have any backbone. You wanna hold on to your character or backbone, but you still wanna be able Two Take in the inflow of information in a way that is

41:30 Why is it prudential? So the stoics Yeah, they're very ancient in this regard. They're not modern. So think of Descartes as modern. So Descartes all about doubt. Cartesian doubt. He's a sceptic. And so we're fallible. We you know, is this a

41:46 ball of wax in front of me. I don't know. Can I trust my sense? I don't really know. What would it take to confirm that? The stoics think you should think about infallibilism,'cause they they they've got us in a world with

42:00 The gods and humans all interspersed, we're all in the same cosmos. And the gods are infallible, so we should try to be infallible. So what does that mean in terms of resilience? Well it means That

42:14 If you're really, really resilient and you're really adaptive then you have this kind of what they call mental reservation. You would say, I'm gonna go for A sail.

42:27 Today. If it doesn't rain. Now you don't know if it's gonna rain or not, you know, we're not listening to the weatherman's report. But you're gonna be able to pivot on a dime.

42:39 If it does and you're gonna you're gonna pull back on your plans. So you're gonna be really nimble. Or agile. You know, you're not gonna be a market timer. But

42:50 you're gonna realize that you know past performance doesn't predict f future. performance. So you're gonna be able to I think of it as refresh your screen really fast. You're gonna

43:04 Get input. quickly make use of it quickly. I sometimes think of it on the model of, you know, I know drone Uh pilots and I know the intel officers that give them information and they've got a

43:17 constantly update these millions of screens in order to get the Autopilots. getting the right information quickly. And the stoics sort of have this idea.

43:29 Yeah. You put this little if clause in We're gonna do it. Unless or if it doesn't. And you're gonna be really responsive.

43:39 to what the conditions are. in that clause such that if Things change, you're gonna change your intention. That's pretty resilient because back to our earlier conversation. It means you're not gonna get stuck.

43:55 On an attachment to a certain object of desire or pleasure. or object of loss in the case of And that th that object can also be an outcome, right? Like being attached to a particular outcome. Absolutely a consequence that you really want to happen. Absolutely. And so The idea here

44:14 Is the ear gonna Take in informational inflow. and you're gonna know what to do with it. I mean it's a high demand, but isn't that after all what we do in Well, we've been doing it during the pandemic. We are trying to take in

44:29 The best data we can get from science and constantly update our communication about what we have to do given what we know about science is the virus. a vaccine, is the vaccine degrading? At what point does it degrade? We might have said the mask didn't work then, but we now know better. This you know, we are constantly updating information so that we can Бі резилін не фейс. of new input. I think that's very stoic.

44:57 How how do we do that, right? Like how do we have an opinion, even if we're detached from it, and then not seek confirming evidence and be able to see the world for sort of like more reality or remove our blind spots, if you will. or to to get closer to that reality. Whereas when we the minute we have an opinion, the minute we have an outcome that we're trying to achieve, and we all have these outcomes, right? At work, you're trying to achieve an outcome. At home, you're trying to achieve an outcome. How do you have that and then not get not let that put blinders on you?

45:30 to the point where you're getting blind spots, right? Because if you think of the source of all bad decisions, the source of anything that we're deciding or choosing is that we don't know something, right? We're blind to something. Cause if we knew we would choose something else. There's that old saying in in sort of clinical psychology that says, you know, show me how somebody sees the world and I'll show you how they behave. And it's the same thing. But what we're trying to do is get closer to reality. And then we have all these these filters, these, you know, you can think of cognitive biases as one sort of like lens into that, but another lens is sort of like we're trying to achieve an outcome, right? Another another w thing that gets in the way of of seeing the world or seeing reality, if you will, is You know, we're in a rush.

46:15 We're operating in an unfamiliar environment. We're stressed. Uh we're trying to do too much. We haven't slept, right? There's physical sort of constraints on our brain. Now now we're trying to achieve that outcome and we have all this other stuff going on. What can we do to better understand reality, better see reality, better understand the full perspective? Well, one thing is you're right, cognitive bias or search for or confirming evidence. Is certainly Uh one tendency that we have.

46:42 And that we I think being aware of the fact that we tend to look for confirming evidence rather than refutation, you might say. Um in An old Carl Paperian way is is is critically important.

46:55 The second is That we Щонсти в ось. Or of our siloed Echo chamber.

47:05 thinking, which is particularly pernicious these days, I think. Um We nчі reali on Groups of experts. I can't really do philosophy unless I understand a little bit about

47:17 uh biology on occasion or um uh other areas of of that that go beyond my Uh my Area of expertise. But I can't easily get into those.

47:29 other areas of expertise unless I'm willing to have pretty decent substanti conversations, much like you're having with people that are in areas other than their own. And that may involve going to speak to a neurobiologist. Um and the neurobiologist has to be able to talk to me. In a language that isn't

47:47 one that they would speak to in their lab. Or if it to someone who can read an FMRI, a functional magnetic res you know. uh resonance imaging. So Communication skills are requisite if you're gonna get outside the silo.

48:03 And any knowledge is collective. Cooperative. Um not simply built. in your area of expertise. And the more

48:13 narrow the areas of expertise And the more siloed The Mediums for distributing that information

48:22 The more stuck we are in bias. Um, so those are those are uh two things. The third is that we really ought to know that emotions aren't always our enemy, but are often our friend. Oh tell me more about that. You get involved in something because you have interest. or you're passionate about it, or you make a commitment. And a commitment is an investment.

48:45 And an investment means I'm gonna go the extra mile. You know, I'm gonna I'm gonna Do the hard work or diligence. That it takes

48:55 The due diligence it takes to get me to sort of understand that. Now, I mean I face this regularly in the classroom. If if I'm really, really boring. And I'm trying it Teach. Can't

49:08 ethics, which can be very hard. Or even some aspects of stoicism which can be terribly dry. I'm not gonna get anywhere unless I try to reach the undergraduates at their level and the graduate students at their level.

49:23 I'm just constantly trying to. communicate. So You know we're all trying to be decent communicators. In order to be able

49:33 to Get people's Interest sparked. And if their interest is spark, they get to be creative. And if they're creative, That leads to other avenues where they start building on that knowledge base and it becomes

49:47 It becomes a part of their world. Um You can't have that without emotions. I mean The world that maybe we got somewhere in you know

49:58 At the turn of the s for you know the uh that the Greeks or Romans gave us or maybe came with the enlightenment that there's The faculty of reason and there's the faculty of emotion and the Twain shall never meet. That is so wrong. We know emotions.

50:16 Are cognitively loaded. We know But cognition. is flat unless it's charged or sparked or

50:26 You know, a a a an intellectual commitment is just that. The commitment carries a lot of juice. And so the You can't easily I think break down some of these

50:40 prejudices or biases or Um Or uh narrow mindedness with regard to intellectual endeavors.

50:49 unless you spark some interest on the other side. I I think another one simply is cooperative endeavor of all different kinds. And that just may involve listening more than talking. Um it's very hard to listen. Um, because we want to be a player in the game.

51:08 You know, we know this in relationships, you know, we're ready to butt in and And you know, and so maybe we do sometimes have to curb our emotions, but we need to hear the other side of the story. In order to see if there's something that resonates with us. Or

51:23 some affront or even some aspect of uh cognitive picture that we were really occluded to before. I mean if I for example say I can't really talk to brain scientists because I don't think the mind reduces to the brain. Well, I've lost a lot of really important information about

51:44 How Processing works. How Um What we were talking about before fast emotions versus slower emotions work.

51:53 If I'm unwilling to sort of see, well, maybe there are different tracks in the brain, maybe you know, stuff that happens up on the Cortex is rather different from stuff that happens in the limbic area and Maybe that explains something about why We have such fast track of mash emotions and slower, more mediated emotions. So You know, I'm saying essentially

52:15 There's Mm. The ways of getting out of just confirming evidence or or cognitive bias is by Going backwards, listening to others.

52:26 Breaking down siloed walls of of of expertise, whether it's in the academy and academic disciplines or it's in the public space. And Infusing some of the conversation with all the juice that goes into getting excited about areas that maybe aren't your own. I I like that. I think it's a little bit deeper than sort of just listening. You have to be open to the other perspective, right? Like you you have to sort of want to see the world through the other person's eyes and disassociate that from I have to agree with how they see the world.

52:59 Right, like I I I wanna like when we do interviews and you know, I wanna see the world through the eyes of my guests. I don't wanna you know disagree with them in sort of principle, we're not here to have a debate. I wanna see how you see the world. And I wanna smell what you smell, I wanna see what you see, because if I can do that, then I understand a bit better. uh about a different perspective. And I'm open to that understanding. And I think that that's key to being open to it. Like so often We know we should listen.

53:27 To a different perspective. So we listen, but we're not really listening, right? Like we're just like, okay, I checked that box. I'm not gonna change my behavior. Uh, I did what I was supposed to do. I heard your argument, and now, you know, I'm gonna do what I was gonna do anyway. What's your reaction to that? Well, I think you're absolutely right. That is the way to Both learn And also

53:50 Even pivot. Uh and and be resilient, as we're saying. Be adapted to information new information that comes in. uh so that you're not just stuck um on all ways. There's a few things that you have to Get over though.

54:03 And one is Some of us approach the world As skeptics. Show me the evidence. Prove it to me.

54:10 I can give you some counterfactuals that would be the hard cases for that claim that you're making. And even if you're not combative. In tone. The way your mind works because of training or culture or All different kinds of background.

54:28 uh conditions. Is I I won't believe it. Until There's

54:35 You remove sufficient degrees of doubt. You know? That's the way some people's minds work. Especially in academia. But but then you you you never end up doing that, right? Like we think we're scientific and we're Banzian sort of like thinkers. Uh but the the the reality is like very few of us can actually do that on a regular basis. And it's a defense, right? It's definitely a defense. It's definitely a defense. It's hard.

55:01 To knock down that person's defense unless they do it themselves, right? Because that's yet another that's another level of argument that you're gonna get into. So that's therapy. Yeah, absolutely. But I'm just saying that is the way in many worlds the conversations go. Show me, prove it to me, I won't believe it to you until you have knocked down everything. Right. And in some cases that makes uh that makes sense, right? Like to actually have that that view. Yeah. If you're defending if you're defending a dissertation, that's probably the way to go.

55:32 Yeah. Um Another one is very hard to bring different groups together. You know, we we belong to self-confirming groups in our dem demographics of late. Are are confirming that even more? The maps show it that we

55:47 tend to live in places where people think right more like us than than don't. Um and we uh tend to associate in those groups. And whether you're on the coasts rather in my country, you know, rather than um parts of the south and and those

56:05 Groups. also tend to align with even more practices and uh and views That exclude the other. So the

56:13 Partisan. Politics which Is a a a massive version of the problem you're talking about. Is very, very hard.

56:24 to adjust because then you're back in a story we were having before, which is about glory, ambition, money, and power. And those are those aren't necessarily about Search for the truth. Or s or try to eliminate cognitive bias. It's just

56:42 dig your heels in in order to Continue. To perpetuate the power position you had in the past. So It's very hard to disentangle the genuine

56:55 Engagement that really really makes a difference socially. And I don't not just in your family or in your with relationships. in your immediate community. Given other larger structures that are in place.

57:11 That hamper the conversation. You know, I so I often so wish the classroom were Some a place that I could just broadcast more Broadly. You know, and these kinds of conversations you and I are having.

57:24 Do that. But It's not often what we hear in the in in the public fora. And that's

57:33 You know, that's a that's a sad Fact that we've got our A place that we've got ourselves into. I'm hopeful. And I have to be hopeful, but I I do find

57:42 That were Um we get stuck. uh in certain kinds of memes and certain kinds of sloganeering that just cut off conversation between groups.

57:55 What stoic practices have been the most effective in your own life? So one is As I was mentioning this Pre rehearsing ills and um how to get my mother to talk about death. And and that wasn't just think about it in advance, Mom. It was

58:12 me realizing that we gotta do it together. and make a bit of and go light. Stoics are very much about Uh You know, emotions can dig in, and so you have to sometimes go light.

58:25 And not be too strenuous and your approach. And so that that w that's really one. I often try to Realize You know, I wanna control a lot.

58:38 More than I can control. Yeah. I am not the kind of stoic that says accept and acquiesce by any means. I think that's pernicious. I'm very much about Exerting my agency and will to change the world as much as I can.

58:54 But when it comes to those that are near and dear to me And have their own spheres of agency. I have to know when to back off. This is children. Spouses.

59:05 And That's hard and I sometimes just have to give myself a little stoic talking to. I'm in charge of me.

59:16 And I have to give some space to others who have equal. autonomy as much as I'd like Them to Follow the My dictum.

59:28 So that Exactly. You're trying to control the controllables, right? Absolutely. So I I do think of that in stoic Lingo. The third thing I use a lot It's a visualization practice. It's

59:41 A lesser known Stoic. has this notion that you're at the center of a whole series of concentric circles. And your role is to visualize with commitment and zeal. the outer circle and bring it to the

59:56 inner circle. So that The outer group. Is part of the inner group. You know, it's a way of

1:00:04 making them us And this is a uh uh part of cosmopolitanism. If you're gonna See yourself as a cooperative member. of the universe, of the cosmos, a global citizen.

1:00:18 Then it's not just about you projecting your ego outward, but it's about understanding But the other is have to bring to you. And that, you know, the way the stoics put it is

1:00:30 Think of the most distant Tribe is still close to you and close to your kiffin kin. That's a very powerful idea. We're really helped ourselves by

1:00:45 Media? Photo journalism. Broadcast journalism. Uh immersed journalist, we get to see the world up close in a way that of course

1:00:55 uh the ancients couldn't they depended on stories coming back. But V a reading about other Cultures so different from one's own historical epochs or Or different

1:01:09 Are of the world. That's a a very Stoic. technique of cosmopolitanism. Visualize it, imagine it, and try to get the emotions that would Go.

1:01:21 with that, which would could be a kind of a form of empathy, essentially. And then another, I often turn to the tragedies, the Greek and Roman tragedies, but one of them The people don't typically read is Seneca's Hercules Rages. And I think of this in terms of

1:01:37 Oh. Asking others for help. So the idea is this. Um Hercules, now he's the go it alone guy. He's strong in all ways, twelve labors. He has to break through. Hades and get to

1:01:52 Mm. This world After his labours and it's a homecoming, he's ready to see his family. But his stepmother Juno has played this terribly dirty trick on him. And the trick is that he's

1:02:04 Going He's gonna kill his loved ones. He kills his family in a Blind rage. And when he comes to he sees Call the

1:02:13 Hordes of ghosts. And he can't believe it was his hand that did it. Now he needs to be comforted. But he needs to be comforted. by opening himself up to someone else. And it's a role of his father and his best friend.

1:02:30 And here you have Hercules, this her you know, it's the model in all of mythology of the strongest, toughest guy. Who has to accept? First what his father says. He says The deed was not yours, the guilt is.

1:02:46 is not yours, it was your stepmother's. And then his friend says, use your heroic courage. To show yourself mercy. And it's essentially he's got a The stoic lesson here is that he's gotta take on the perspective.

1:03:02 Of someone else. to be come his own friend. to find self compassion. So again This is listening to another person.

1:03:12 And it's really hard to h hear that other person because all you want to do is be enraged at yourself. survivor's guilt essentially. Why should I live? I killed all these other people. I mean He's suicidal. but he has to be comforted by taking on the perspective of someone else.

1:03:30 So He w he can see himself through someone else's eyes, is what he's gotta learn. That is so hard, said To see yourself. In the moment of

1:03:41 Self rage and shame. And guilt. Through a more compassionate lens. I think of this a lot.

1:03:50 And You know, my years of working with military men and women coming home and having seen horrible things and They just don't want to let up on their guilt. And it's extru excruciating.

1:04:03 And sometimes it's the gaze of a loved one or a close, close buddy Cool. Is the best person situated. To be able to

1:04:14 hold up a mirror to them and say You wouldn't accuse me, I'm not accusing you now. And You know, in some ways that's really the role of a very benevolent psychotherapists to be able to allow you to see yourself.

1:04:28 In a way that you can't see yourself at this moment at the moment because the story you're telling Is the only one you can tell yourself. But there are other stories that you can listen to, but you you can't find the voice yet. You can't find the gaze yet.

1:04:42 So there's There's that moment in a stoic teaching. And I often think of that play. when I sort of am really hard on myself or feeling particularly um ashamed of something that happened or you know, egg on my face a bit and

1:04:57 Trying to Be a little gentler to myself. Yeah. I think that's a great place to end this. Thank you so much, Nancy. Thank you. It's my pleasure, Shane. It's a great delight.

1:05:11 The Knowledge Project is produced by the team at Furnham Street. I'd love to get your advice on how to make this the most valuable podcast you listen to. Email me at shane at fs.blog. You can learn more about the show and find past episodes at FS dot blog slash podcast. To get a transcript of this episode, go to fs.blog slash tribe or check out the show notes.

1:05:34 Can you do me a small favor? Go online right now and share this episode with one friend who you think would love it. Thanks listening and learning with us. Till next time.

What you see above is a preview of the first minutes. One unlock costs 10 credits and covers this episode forever: full segment and word-level timestamps on this page, plus .txt, .srt, .vtt and word-level JSON downloads, as many times as you like.