The Scientist Who Scans Fathers' Brains: Parenthood Shrinks Your Brain, And Drops Testosterone 25%!

0:00 We've discovered something about the brain I think is quite surprising. So we found that in fathers the brain is actually shrinking. and I'll explain why. But also there are studies that find that both men and women who report having had more kids have markers of a younger looking brain age. And then also typically men when they do this show about a 25% drop in testosterone. The next studies of single women have found that, you know, if you show them a series of body types, dad bot is the most popular. And that's proven by science. So if I go out and get a dad bot, you're telling me the science that says I'm getting more attractive. Yeah, go for it. Have you done any studies on that? Yes. That is one of the most robust findings in parenthood research. My lab found actually that Wow.

0:47 So I've always been really interested in families and becoming a parent is one of the biggest transformations that you can experience. But I'm concerned about the declining birth rate and I think that we've managed to market it as an undesirable choice. According to the CDC and Pew research data, the US total fertility rate just hit an all-time recorded low. Yeah, I mean the transition to parenthood can be really challenging. You are sacrificing yourself. It can be very isolating. You're losing your sleeve. But becoming a parent, you are benefiting from this sense of connection and purpose. You will rediscover your priorities in a way That will ultimately bring a lot of value. So if all goes well, next year I will be a dad and I would like you to give me some advice on becoming a father based on all the research that you have. So great fathers are made not for. There's a lot you can do. I'm gonna write it down. Love it. So first Guys, I've got a favor to ask before this episode begins. The algorithm, if you follow a show, will deliver you the best episodes from that show very prominently in your feed. So when we have our best episodes on this show The most shared episodes, the most rated episodes. I would love you to know. And the simple way for you to know that is to hit that follow button. But also it's the simple

1:58 easy free thing that you can do to help us make this show better. And I would be hugely grateful if you could take a minute on the app you're listening to this one right now and hit that follow button. Thank you so, so so much. Dobby. Sucks me.

2:16 You've discovered something about the brain. That I think is quite surprising to a lot of men and women. As it relates to what happens to a man's brain when they become a father. Um and I've got the report here in front of me. But

2:28 I have a model brain over there. Could you explain to me what exactly it is that you discovered? Yes. So we found that In fathers, and this is similar to what's been observed in mothers. The brain is actually losing gray matter volume. So it is shrinking. So if I had stronger hands, I could probably squish this brain and make it look tinier. Mm-hmm. But the parts of the brain that are shrinking the most are in what we call the mentalizing network. And that's a part of the brain that helps us understand

2:56 Other people's feelings and intentions. Those areas are kind of concentrated around the midline of the cortex, which is kind of what we're seeing here. And then you also see volume reduction in the visual areas, which is the back of the brain, which is really important for understanding when you look at an infant's face, what kinds of emotions it's trying to tell you. And so we see changes to those parts of the brain in new dads.

3:21 In moms, we see changes to these same parts of the brain. We also see changes in moms to what's called the subcortex, which is this part of the brain. That kinda controls our gut feelings and our sense of reward. And is really strongly linked with our hormones. So moms are kind of changing all across the brain. Dads are mostly changing in this top layer, the cortex. Which kind of controls our higher order thinking.

3:45 reasoning and executive functioning. And that tell us something about fatherhood, which is that father choose to engage in parenting. It's a sort of cognitively mediated investment that dad's making. What does that mean? So if you think about um a mom who's been through nine months of pregnancy, she is flooded with hormones when her baby is born. And she has a really high investment in the baby survival.

4:14 Just thinking about the number of calories that it takes to sustain a pregnancy. It's Thousands. And and so there's a very high floor for maternal investment, and moms are undergoing plasticity all across the brain that reflects that. In dads there's a tremendous amount of cross cultural variability. So there are cultures in which dad participate

4:37 in child care and are very hands on with babies from the moment of birth There are cultures in which there are prohibitions against men picking babies up. You don't pick babies up in the first year in some cultures. You don't pick babies up because it's considered unmanly. Okay. So there's a tremendous amount of variability. And dads calibrate their investment according to what the culture says. And what the context looks like. If mom becomes unavailable. dad is often needed to step in and provide more of the care.

5:06 And so this sort of top layer of brain changes reflects that You know, dads are modulating their investment. depending on what they're learning from the environment. And the word that biologists use for this is

5:21 Facultative. So a facultative Adaptation Is an adaptation that is optional but extremely useful. You could think about an animal that walks on four legs.

5:34 suddenly having Something really important to grab. And switching to walk on two legs so that it can use its hands. Hands are really useful for that animal.

5:45 Fathers are really useful for humanity. But are you saying they're optional? But they vary depending on situation. And I don't want to say that fathers aren't important. They're incredibly important. There are dads who are primary caregivers and even soul caregivers. Of children. But dads vary and they vary depending on what is needed for children to thrive in their specific local context.

6:10 And A woman's brain shrinks as well, but it shrinks a little bit more. Yes. It covers more of the brain. And it also shows a larger across the board volume reduction. And I should explain volume reduction, we often think about deficit. Mommy brain, you're forgetting things. Volume reduction is not a bad thing.

6:29 What it means is that the brain is actually working more efficiently because it's building Better connected pathways and and better channels for communicating information. Is it accurate to say that the brain is focusing? Yes, exactly. So it's reshaping in a way

6:47 that enables more efficient communication. It's learning. It's consolidating. So it's kinda like if you think about the director's cut of a movie that has lots of interesting extra scenes and characters and then you watch it in the theater and it's like this lean mean two hour cut. Right. Like many of us prefer the theatrical release'cause it's easier to follow. And by getting rid of certain parts of the brain, that means more energy can be used in the other parts of the brain. Is that broadly accurate? Exactly. So that we're better able to focus on what matters.

7:21 And when we become parents, what matters Is our children. And the inputs they're giving us. that the man loses when they become a father made it seem like they're losing empathy. No, they're actually improving in their empathy because they're becoming more efficient processors of social information.

7:45 So the fact that where we see the biggest changes are in these what we call mentalizing social cognition networks tell us that those networks are really important for dad to use when they become parents, and they're getting a lot of practice putting those networks into into use. I thought you said that section of the brain shrunk. Yes, because the brain is becoming more efficient. So it's losing all the extra pathways and you're sort of building a super highway for that specific social information. Sounds counterintuitive, because I imagined that my brain would grow when I get better at something.

8:20 You would, but in this case the brain is actually shrinking. And I know it it sort of feels like a puzzle to wrap your head around, but it actually does reflect that the brain is working better. And is there a relationship between how hands on the father is and the amount of shrinkage that happens in their brain. Yeah, and my lab found that relationship. So when dad us before birth that they felt more bonded to their unborn baby When they wanted to take more time off after work, and when they told us three months after birth that that they enjoyed their babies more, they felt more connected and bonded to them, and they were spending more time taking care of their babies They had more profound brain shrinkage.

9:01 All of this seems to support the contention that the shrinkage is really Adaptive and it's enabling men's adjustment to parenthood. Is there any other biological changes that take place? When someone becomes a father. So we also see changes to men's hormones. I talk about this in the book. Men typically

9:20 Show a drop in testosterone? And I've got a big thing here. Yeah, let's talk about testosterone. So typically men when they're hands on as fathers show about a twenty-five percent drop in testosterone. And some of the best studies of this have been done longitudinally in the Philippines. Before we had longitudinal studies, people said well maybe Lower testosterone men are just choosing to become fathers. And so looking across time lets us tease that out and see is there something about fatherhood that's actually changing testosterone?

9:53 And so when you look across decades you find that testosterone is typically pretty high. Before Pregnancy happens. And it's adapted to have high testosterone. You know, testosterone's been studied a lot in birds. It's also been studied in rodents and in other mammals. You want high testosterone at the start of breeding season when it's time to

10:15 to maximize your chances of producing offspring. You wanna compete, you wanna build status, you wanna fight off your ribals. High testosterone is your friend. Once you've accomplished your reproductive goal. And you've caused a pregnancy and you want your offspring to survive, then You wanna be investing. and nurturing.

10:36 That new baby. And this is what we saw in the men in the Philippines, that as they were spending more time Taking care of kids, they showed a sharper drop. And and then you typically see some rebound. when the baby is getting older.

10:51 And again, this is not unique to humans. We see it all over the animal kingdom. So during the pregnancy Something some chemical. Tells my body. Yeah. That I need to make less testosterone. Yeah. Even though the baby's not here yet. Yeah, it might just be your proximity to your pregnant partner.

11:07 Interesting. Yeah. Our lab found expectant dads and expectant moms had correlated levels of testosterone. During pregnancy. And the more strong that relationship was the more dad showed a drop in testosterone after birth. But I wanna caveat'cause I think a lot of men are really concerned about the idea that testosterone might drop. And I think we have a really strong narrative right now that testosterone sort of like equals successful masculinity.

11:34 And masculinity is not about a particular hormone. It is about a body that is responsive to our goals. And that sets us up to meet the demands of our environment. And so Having a biology

11:49 that fluctuates across the lifespan as our reproductive strategy shifts is really adaptive. We wanna be flexible. And that doesn't always mean maxed out testosterone. So high levels of testosterone are Actually decrease our sperm count? And they

12:06 are bad for our immune system. I think some men might be concerned that dropping testosterone might make them worse in the gym, or it might make them less ambitious or less able to pursue their goals in life. Is there any truth to that? There's definitely a link between testosterone and men's

12:24 Yeah, muscle mass and their motivation, their drives, but These are not one to one relationships. So the human hormone literature is messy and a lot of these are weak. correlations. So Testosterone doesn't necessarily equal success at work, for example. And high testosterone can get in men's way. in in multiple ways. So

12:47 There are links between men's testosterone levels and and um relationship satisfaction in the couple relationships. So My lab did a study where we found that men who had relatively higher testosterone After their baby's birth, the had uh partners who were more dissatisfied in the relationship and reported more intimate partner aggression.

13:07 So the dads themselves reported more parenting stress. So there's a little bit of a mixed bag of high testosterone. And what it looks like you want is to hit a sweet spot. You don't want testosterone levels that totally crash. My lab has also found that when Testosterone is really low after a birth, men have higher postpartum depression symptoms. You don't necessarily want testosterone levels that are sky high either.

13:31 Because that can cause problems in your intimate relationship and it can make it hard for you to switch. Into nurturing and parenting mode. So the men who seemed most successful in our study were men who had mid range testosterone levels. They be flexible and that could adapt to

13:49 different life changes. And am I right in thinking that the more time you spend hands on as a father in those studies that they did on men. the lower your testosterone. We'll go.

14:00 Yeah, so the longitudinal work in the Philippines found that When men spent more time Changing babies, doing hands on care, sharing a sleeping service with babies, they had more of a testosterone drop. So the testosterone, the hormones are responsive to

14:19 the context and to what we're doing. But testosterone does rebound. You know. after birth. So it's not necessarily the case that Testosterone is gonna bottom out and it's gonna stay low forever.

14:31 You know, y you said a second ago that men that had crashes to their testosterone during the pregnancy and thereafter Um had a high likelihood of experiencing postpartum depression themselves. Does that are you implying that that means that there's an ideal amount of time and hands onness that a father can spend with their child to make sure their testosterone hits that mid range point. Yeah, it's a it's a really good question. I mean I I don't know that we know for sure if there's like a dose of

14:59 parenting involvement that sort of lends itself to an ideal amount of testosterone. It's hard to optimize your way out of these natural changes. I I don't wanna discourage dad from being hands on. with their kids because they're worried they're gonna pay some kind of physiological tax. I think it's more like Make sure you're protecting your sleep. Which we know is linked with

15:23 overall health. Make sure you're getting time to exercise and to socialize, you know, to participate in activities that bring you joy. Like those are ways to help mitigate your risk that I think will be more successful. Than trying to hit a particular hormone level. Uh my brother is a year older than me and he has um

15:42 Three young kids under the age of Seven now. Um they weren't actually just here, they've just left. But um I noticed a remarkable difference in him when he when his wife, Julia, got pregnant. Would you notice? Just a a total shift in what he wanted out of life. Yeah.

16:00 And so before growing up I remember um one day seeing him on the computer figuring out which job would pay the most money. And he was very, very smart. He he is very, very smart. And he picked up. he sort of orientated his career towards the job that would make the most money. And then he was successful, he went to LSE.

16:16 Yeah. Um And then shortly after graduating university, met someone, they got pregnant unexpectedly. And I watched my brother go from someone who was like really striving for

16:28 Material goals. Yeah. To someone who s suddenly place the material goal immediately after how do I retire and spend the maximum amount of my t time with my kids. Yeah. His kids are. number one above all anything else, and it's something I admire a lot about him. But the most remarkable thing as someone that's not gone through that transition because I've not had kids yet. Is just watching how profound the change was in him in terms of his stated goals and ambitions.

16:53 Yeah. I'm so glad you said that'cause that's something I heard from so many of the fathers that I interviewed for the book is that You experience this profound shift in your values and your priorities. And a lot of men, you know, if you survey parents, you say what are the most meaningful priorities in your life. men are just as likely as women to say, My kids. And I think fathers increasingly are recognizing that the parenting role is really

17:21 central to their self concept. And You know, like we're in a culture where I think it can be hard For men to find a sense of meaning and purpose. And connection to other people?

17:33 Being a parent can can give you that sense of meeting and purpose. And so you know, I think that's a really important framing around, you know, your testosterone level might change or your brain might shrink, like things that maybe sound a little scary and negative, but they're in the service of this larger goal, which is building a more meaningful life. And I think, you know, like a message to men and also to women, to moms and to dads.

17:58 Is anything that's worth doing is hard. Being a parent is really hard. You know, you are sacrificing yourself, you're losing your sleep. you are getting extra wrinkles, ask me how I know. But You are

18:12 uh benefiting from this sense of connection and purpose. that you know, it sounds like your brother has been totally transformed by. And I think we're in a lot of ways like selling young men on this message that you should be optimizing your bank account and your Body fat percentage and you should be out there hustling as much as possible.

18:32 And I think that can be a little bit of a hollow message because what we keep learning again and again from the Longevity studies. is that the quality of men's relationships is the best predictor of their well being in old age. So men with healthy marriages men who have positive relationships with their kids

18:50 Those are the men who age well. Not necessarily the men who've maxed out on, you know Riches or the perfect Body fat score. It is it is it's really a remarkable thing because when you as you look forward into becoming a parent

19:06 You Often see the sacrifices you'll have to make. You hear about you're not gonna sleep as much as you used to. You'll hear about um the anxieties of being a parent and loving something so much more than yourself and all these things. But that sort of profound psychological, biological, hormonal shift. You kinda just have to believe in it.

19:24 Yeah. People like tell you about it as if it's like a ri almost like a Like almost like a uh religion. I say that because you have to have faith That the the profound upside will be. um worth the very obvious cost that you see parents, you know, the sacrifices they have to make. Yeah. I think that's exactly right, because I think a lot of the downsides are really visible. Yeah. Like we've all been on a plane with a crying kid and we've seen the frantic parent trying to calm them down. We've all seen a tantrum in the grocery store, right? Like that that stuff is right in your face. But the upsides are sort of invisible.

19:56 You know, just like the joy of seeing your child's face as they discover something new. Or, you know, getting to snuggle late at night and feeling this sense of closeness that you've never had, right? That like love that's bigger than yourself. And I think it's important to speak about the benefits as well as the downsides because We humans crave connection.

20:19 And you know, we crave Care. And I think becoming a parent is an opportunity to provide care on a scale that's hard to find in other ways. I also want to hear from you about how the mother's brain changes. through pregnancy and beyond. Yeah.

20:36 Julia, so my brother's wife, she was here as well. And she's remarkably different. Now that she's had these three beautiful children. And I was asking her last night,'cause she was in s the sort of corporate world before and I was saying You know, on when they grow up and they leave home, which again is probably the worst thing you could probably say to a mother who has three young beautiful children and who's already like anxious that some day they're gonna fly the nest. I was like w w what what what will then be in the place of these three kids in your life, would you want to go back to like the corporate world or do you want to do something else? And how has it reordered your sense of meaning?

21:07 But tell me, how does the mother's brain change? Yeah, the mother's brain changes really profoundly as well. Moms are losing about two and a half percent of their brain volume from before pregnancy to after birth. Dads in our studies we found they lose about one percent of their brain volume. So similar pattern in similar parts of the brain. But the magnitude is different and there's more variability in the dads. And how did you conduct these studies? So what was the methodology? So we recruited a bunch of first time parents. These were uh all couples that we recruited during pregnancy. Our only rule was that you had to be cohabiting.

21:44 And you had to be planning to continue cohabiting after the birth because we really wanted to capture the dads and get their experience, you know, being in proximity to their babies. And so we brought them into the lab We asked them every question we could think of. We sampled their blood, their saliva, their hair. Uh we had them fight with each other on camera and

22:06 We scanned the men's brains. And then about six months after their baby was born, they We brought them back into the lab, and Blood, saliva, hair. This time we got a breast milk sample, we got a sample of baby poop. And we had them fight again and we scan the dad's brains again. You had them fight again. We had them fight again. We wanted to see

22:25 How do couples communicate with each other? And does that change across the transition to parenthood and also What communication styles are gonna predict Better. couple level adaptation to becoming parents. How did you get them to fight? I need to make sure I don't do that. So we gave them a whole list of different topics. We said these are topics that couples commonly argue about

22:47 which are hot button issues for you and your partner. And so we had both the mom and the dad fill these out independently. And then we went through and we saw what are the issues that both people are endorsing. And we said we want you to talk about This issue, don't hold back. We're gonna give you fifteen minutes, sit in this room. And we, you know, watch them Talk through it.

23:09 They weren't, you know, like punching each other. But the conversations were often contentious because they were talking about issues that were frequently objects of conflict. Mm-hmm.

23:19 Okay. And what did you discover? So we discovered that when couples fought more negatively with each other, the They subsequently reported more difficult birth experiences. And it's interesting'cause

23:30 Birth is a time in which Moms need a lot of support. and the partner's often a primary person who's in the room providing that support. So when couples have, you know, sort of like a like a toxic, difficult relationship, That can really color mom's experience of the birth. Are you saying that because the person that they fought with

23:54 And don't have a Good conflict resolution strategy. With It was in the room. they had a bad birth experience or did something actually happen?

24:03 In the birth experience. Did like the the husband make a comment or like Yeah, no, I mean we didn't record their conversations during the birth, but we actually did get the charts from the hospital or the birth center after the baby delivered and we looked at complications. We looked at how medically complex the birth was. And we found that when couples fought more negatively and less positively during pregnancy, During pregnancy. During pregnancy. So, you know, they're about six months into pregnancy. A few months later, when it's time to deliver the infant, they had more medically complex births. And they also appraised the birth as more stressful. So the conclusion is it's thinking about the couple relationship is actually important when we think about birth.

24:44 There's been a huge sea change uh about how we deliver babies. You know, like It used to be that men were never in the birthing room. So babies were tic typically delivered with the assistance of a female midwife and female relatives. And it really wasn't until birth moved into hospitals in, you know, the late nineteenth century suddenly you had a male physician who's presiding over the birth.

25:10 And then really it wasn't until the sixties and seventies that the dad started to advocate for their inclusion in the birthroom. They said, you know, we don't want to miss this. We want to be present. But because historically dad have really not been part of the birth experience.

25:25 We haven't necessarily thought about the couple relationship as a place to intervene. If we want to make birth go more smoothly. We actually want to be thinking about dad's mental health. And we wanna be thinking about couple's relationship functioning. Because those things might actually affect mom's psychological experience of birth.

25:44 So you're saying Don't fight during pregnancy. Yeah. W or just find more effective ways to fight. You wanna figure out ways to Calm each other down, validate each other. not necessarily, you know, amp each other up and get into these really negative spirals. I guess I wanna p push on a point of nuance here because I'm concerned that

26:04 Expectant parents might be looking at each other right now. As they listen to this episode, I imagine we've got a lot of expectant parents listening. And they're thinking, Fuck, we had a fight last week. And We got the buff coming up in a couple of months. Yeah. There's nothing wrong with fighting. In fact, I'm a big believer that it's good to air out your concerns and grievances.

26:23 What we were looking at specifically were negative conflict behaviors. Things like criticizing, showing contempt Um stonewalling, so like refusing to listen to see the other person's perspective. Actually one of my really smart grad students is working on a project right now. Where he looks he's looking at like what is kind of like A magic ingredient is

26:46 that helps couples shift from being negative with each other to being positive with each other during these conflict tasks. He's like literally looking at the same Task. And he's finding the ingredient is validation. So just Conveying to your partner, I understand what you're saying. I see where you're coming from.

27:06 I'm right here with you. I get it. Like those kinds of behaviors make a huge difference because they sort of take like a lot of the Tension and frustration out of the conversation. As soon as you feel really heard by your partner. You, you know, the wind is a little bit out of your sails for being furious. I sometimes worry that

27:26 A lot of people are waiting for perfection before they step into the next season of Parenthood. Maybe I'm guilty of this myself a little bit to some degree. I think me and my partner talk about this sometimes, me and my fiance about Right.

27:42 It doesn't feel like there's ever going to be a perfect time to have kids. Yeah. When you look at the nature of my life and her life, you go, look, crazy, crazy schedules. Um, there really is no time. Right now. Um but I reflect and go, Well everything that I do now, including this podcast. At the time that I f did the first episode, there was no time. Yeah. But I made the time. Yeah. Um and I and I sometimes worry that as As young people we

28:04 are in a culture that is waiting for um more perfection than than is coming in terms of our romantic partner or our circumstances. And of course, there is a a fundamental sort of basis of security that everybody needs to be able to bring um a a life into the world. And often people don't have that. Um but I'm wondering what your thoughts are on that. Yeah, I mean I had this conversation with my grad school advisor. I said I would love to have kids

28:31 What do you recommend? When is the right time? And she laughed and she said, There is no right time. You just have to do it. You just have to make it work. Because once the baby shows up, you'll figure it out. And that was tremendously good advice and and you know, led me to start having kids within the next few years after that conversation. Really? Yeah. Yeah. I was like, Okay, I guess it's t I'm just gonna go for it. I'm gonna make it work and it was hard. But we did, in fact, figure it out, and And I think, you know, when you optimize everything

29:01 And you feel like you need the perfect conditions. I need to own a house. It has to be this many bedrooms. I need, you know, this level of stability. Yes, all those things are terrific. But historically Yeah, people had kids young and You know, often

29:20 They found that having kids gave them a really strong impetus. To get those things together. We used to think about having kids as like a cornerstone of a life. It's like a foundation. You know, you do that and then you sort of build your career and everything else. Now we kinda think of it as like a capstone. It's like your crowning achievement. You've got everything perfectly set and now it's time to have kids. And I think the problem with that is first of all our our biology doesn't always agree. You know, we can sort of lose our our best window in which to have kids.

29:48 And I also think like Having kids isn't just an individual Responsibility. We need to be thinking about it as it's a collective responsibility. It's societal. We are an allo parenting species. So what that means, we're we're cooperative breeders. We raise our kids in community. That's how we evolved. That's if you look at hunter gatherers, that's how they Raise their kids.

30:11 We are not designed to do this in isolation. And and I think, you know, when you think about like what does a healthy society provide for parents to reduce stress, right? Like Generous maternity and paternity leaves and you know, job protections, child care. Like I'm a big believer in having strong policies. That make it easier to have kids, because I think in the absence of those policies.

30:34 You feel like it's your job to get everything completely lined up. And that time might never come. Especially not in a you know tempestuous economy. And I think we're seeing some of the symptoms of exactly what you've described there. A landmark twenty twenty four study published in The Lancet projects that by the year

30:53 Two thousand one hundred. Ninety seven percent of all countries and territories will have fertility rates too low to sustain their populations. the global fertility rate has plummeted from an average of five children per woman in nineteen fifty to just two point two today. According to the CD C and P research data, the US total fertility rate just hit an all time recorded low, Of one point six.

31:17 This is far below the replacement rate of Two point one children. Uh. Couple, I guess. Yep.

31:23 re required to keep the population stable without immigration. CDC data shows total US birth rates dropped yet again by one percent in twenty twenty five, but falling to roughly three point six million babies. continuing a nearly two decade down fall slide since the Great Recession. And lastly, because the fertility is crashing in high income nations, but remaining comparatively high in specific low income regions, It is predicted a massive shift in human demographics will take place, and by two thousand one hundred

31:54 One in every two children born on the planet. Will be born in sub Saharan Africa. Yeah. It's all quite um All quite shocking to hear, isn't it?

32:04 I think. It's inconceivable. I thought we'd growing up, everyone was talking about uh too too many people being on the planet. Right. There was this narrative of the population bomb, which was this really popular theory in the sixties that we had too many children. Yeah. And we needed to, you know, adopt contraception and we needed to prevent too many children from being born. We we all took that too literally and maybe over corrected. Because now you have this population drop and And it's concerning because what you don't want is a society with what's called an inverse age curve.

32:36 Which means that you have many more old people than young people. Because You know, then you don't have enough caregivers for the older people, you don't have enough people to sustain the economy. You don't have innovators, you don't have You know, the folks who are sort of building your future

32:53 you've depopulated that and you have a very aging population, and that can create a lot of instability. So I I think we need to be thinking about, you know, how do we make Parenting? easier and more desirable for young people because I think that we've managed to market it as And

33:13 Undesirable choice. How does how do we make it easier and more desirable for young people? So I think part of it is the conversation we're having right now. We're talking about the meaning, the purpose, the benefits that you can get from your relationships with others. I think the we need a cultural reframe around care to raise the value of care. One of the reasons I'm interested in fatherhood is because I think

33:37 Seeing men as talented caregivers kind of unlocks this appreciation we have for the importance of care. The shift you described your brother undergoing where he went from transactional, how can I make the most money? To My kids matter. How can I spend the most time with them? Yeah. I think is a is a really valuable shift in purpose that

33:59 You know, at scale. would make societies healthier and more empathetic. So there's like two things I think are are worth saying here from my perspective. The first is I think it's important that we express the fact that A, not everybody can have kids because of you know, reasons beyond their control. I think the second thing is Not everybody wants or should should want to have kids, you know, depending on their circumstance. Um

34:22 And the third thing is that I do Feeling. In my personal circumstances. Um When I think about what I want from my life again, this is about me.

34:31 I do feel tremendously. Positively jealous of his life. Mm. And that's a it's a strange thing because you know, he has a couple more grey hairs than me, even though he's only a year older. So you know, everything in life is a trade off. But the the like deep sense of meaning and purpose that even I experience when those kids are here, like they were at the my house for the last couple of weeks and

34:49 Uh it's It's everything seems Yeah, incomparable in in terms of like Meaning.

34:56 Beautiful children. Yeah. Endlessly curious and fascinating and And you know, there's very little you can get from scrolling on a screen that, you know, that to me is as fulfilling. as what you can get from watching a baby learn something.

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36:16 Bartlett and you can start your free trial right now. One of the things you've heard me talk about quite a lot over the last couple of years, and this is something that's true in business and content, but also with everything in life, is that consistency is the thing that really, really compounds. The same is true in sales. When your team is small, consistency happens naturally. The team knows of every deal, so nothing gets missed. But as I've experienced, when you grow, This starts to break down and deals start to slip, follow ups don't happen, leads go cold that shouldn't have. And when this happens, a lot of leaders look at it and think they have a people problem. When actually it's a systems problem. The businesses that have watched scale well commercially, all have a system their team uses every single day. And for my team, that system has been our sponsor pipe drive. It's an easy to use intelligent CRM tool for growing sales teams that gives you visibility of every deal in your sales pipeline at every single stage. And it shows you what needs to happen for that deal to move forward all in real time. It's what keeps our commercial operation consistent when we're a team of five or when our commercial team was a team of fifty. Over a hundred thousand companies are already running their sales on it. So if you'd like to join them, sign up at pipedrive.com/slash CEO, where you'll get an exclusive

37:25 Thirty-day free trial instead of the usual 14 days, and there's no credit card needed at all. Head to pipedrive.com slash CEO. Am I right in thinking that? Parents have different brains as it relates to The brain being protected?

37:45 Yeah, so there's this really interesting emerging body of research suggesting that being a parent is neuroprotective in late life. So there are studies, the UK Biobank is the biggest big repository of brain scans from people in their fifties and sixties. And they find that both men and women who report having had more kids have markers of a younger looking brain age.

38:09 So if you do a machine learning algorithm that adjusts for your chronological age. And then, you know, takes what the scans look like and uses that to estimate what they think you're Brainage. You look relatively younger when you report having had more kids.

38:26 It seems like the greatest benefit is at two or three kids. After that it kinda levels off. You don't necessarily get a big benefit from Having had six kids compared to having had two But it suggests that there is something about the practice that you get to your social brain and to your empathetic brain. that is really beneficial to your

38:46 you know, brain plasticity and functioning later in life. That's quite surprising because you think, you know, parents go through a lot of stress having lots of kids. So you'd you'd assume that they'd be sleeping less. You'd assume that would be bad for the brain. But you're telling me there's evidence that it's actually protective to be a parent of two or three kids. Yeah, I think it's healthy to think about the short term cost and then the long term benefit. Okay.

39:09 There are plenty of studies that I've found that moment to moment Parents of young kids say that they're less happy. Mm-hmm. They're more tired, they're more stressed, they have more going on. We've talked about the You know, brain changes, hormone changes. But then, you know, if you look longer in later life

39:27 People will report more fulfillment. So it's like you're you're doing something that's not very fun. It's taxing, it can be very isolating. And yet you're kind of reaping this longer term benefit in terms of the power of those relationships and that sense of connection with other people. That social integration.

39:45 And that practice trying to understand others that is really beneficial, like it's a glue for creating good relationships. What is it exactly about being a parent, though, that's gonna make my brain more protected when I get older. You know, w one of the theories I had was that because, you know, when those three kids were here, they had me playing all kinds of bloody games. They wanted to play hide and seek for seven hours. And it is somewhat, you know, actually picking them up all the bloody time'cause there's three of them. And one of them's eight, I can't really pick her up easily. Yeah. The other two, I can get them up. And then she starts complaining that I've not picked her up, so I have to pick her up. And I'm like, Wow, what a work out. Yeah.

40:19 It is both a cognitive and a physical workout. When they're around. Yeah. Is it that like I'm building up brain reserve because they're challenging me and having tantrums and they're wanting to play and they're engaging me all the time. Is that why it's protective? I think it's like Sudoko for your social cognition, right? It's like you're doing crossword puzzles, but instead of like you know, the sort of practice that you're getting for putting words together, you're getting practice understanding people's minds and intentions and communicating and responding to them and being sensitive to them. And all of that is putting you through a workout and it's also a full body workout. Because kids are really embodied. And there's actually interesting research that dads especially play in these physically

41:01 demanding kind of vigorous ways with young kids. Yeah. That was my job. My job was to pick'em up and throw'em as high as I possibly can. Yeah. And kids love that. Yeah, and then me now. And then then I like I threw that and then it's like me now And then I just I was like, I'm gonna lose weeks throwing these kids in the air, but also I'm gonna break something. Yeah, I mean I think my husband never had to see the chiropractor until you know, he became a dad and all of a sudden you're throwing them up in the air all the time. But That kind of play is really good for kids. Because it's testing their limits, it's challenging them and And it's actually helping them build their risk tolerance.

41:33 So like think about like the the moment of fear that you have when you're thrown up in the air and then the relief when you're caught. Like you're basically practicing your emotion regulation skills on a small scale. So that when you're thrown into a scary situation at school You have a stronger sense of confidence. My other theory around why having children would be neuroprotective for the brain was around oxytocin. And I say that because I sat with Robert Waldinger, who's done the sort of that long Harvard study on human happiness. And the conclusion is that one of the single biggest predictors of l longevity is whether you have strong relationships. And again, I've I had s another scientist say to me that oxytocin, the bonding chemical, is neuroprotective. So I imagine having three children

42:19 Oxytocin, which is going to equal some neuroprotectiveness. I mean we are social animals. We are designed to bond with each other. We pair bond, we bond with our kids. That's really healthy. I love Waldinger studies. I cite those in the book when I talk about, you know, if you really want to think about what

42:38 creates longevity and well being late in life. Look at your relationships. And you know, I feel like he shows that really well with this eighty year study that he's been doing. There are all these like brain changes and hormone changes that are designed to facilitate to help us build those bonds. And that's a lot of what is sort of going off in early parenthood is like we are sort of reorganizing to become more sensitive, more attentive caregivers. It's not like you know, some people are just destined to be great parents and some people aren't.

43:08 It's like as we put in the experience, as we get the practice, we put in the reps. we're building that brain and body that helps make us really great sensitive caregivers. And then that I think can can transfer over to our other relationships too. If you've learned how to calm a kid down from a tantrum You are probably gonna be a very effective manager at work.

43:29 If you have, you know, negotiate with three kids who all wanna pick you up at different times You know, you're probably gonna be a better problem solver in your couple relationship. Like those are just skills that you're building that can cross domains. I was just looking at some of the the research on this and it says that research shows that oxytocin actively down regulates harmful pro inflammatory cytokines in the brain. It acts as It acts on the brain's immune cells.

43:54 Um making toxic inflammatory responses lower. And studies on aging mice demonstrated that long term oxytocin treatment concurrently enhanced the brain's plasticity, which directly improved Learning

44:08 And made them better with memory as they aged. And in terms of Alzheimer's In animal models of Alzheimer's oxytocin has been shown to reduce the toxicity of amyloid beta plaques, the toxic protein clumps that are the hallmark of Alzheimer's disease. Which is fascinating. And that's um that's the chemical that is produced from bonding. Yeah, that's a pair bonding chemical. It's an it's an affiliative neuropeptide. So it sort of helps us shore up our social bonds.

44:34 Touch is really important, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. My lab found actually that when dads engage in more physical touch, th there's a type of touch that's called proprioceptive touch, which is Exactly what you were just describing, like picking babies up, moving them around, playing with them like in space. It's that sort of like vigorous touch that we often associate with fathers. When dad did more of that, they subsequently had higher oxytocin levels when we did a blood draw in our lab. And that's been found in some other labs as well.

45:02 Do you know Erica Commissal, he's been on my show? I do. One of the things she says, which has been a little bit controversial, is that she's argued that placing children under the age of three in daycare causes profound separation trauma and elevates cortisol to dangerous levels. So she's quite against Daycare. I both my kids went to daycare where they thrived, and I am a big believer in this idea of alloparenting, which is this idea that we collectively raise kids. We are designed to Help each other out and share care. And so the model of single parent, single child, isolated in a suburban home is a very weird model in the context of human history.

45:42 And so I think this idea that, you know, we can't participate in shared care or that kids can't do well in group care kit settings To me is a little exaggerated. I do think it's very true that it's about timing and when is the right window. to you know put kids in group care settings.

46:00 it it's you know, ideally when kids can benefit from some social interaction, which is usually a little older in toddlerhood. So you know, eighteen months and beyond. Very young babies often do better when they have a single caregiver. They have a more stable attachment figure that they can bond with. But Babies can form really strong attachments with their dads

46:23 with a caregiver It doesn't necessarily have to be the case that the Mom is the only person that needs to be present for every moment of an infant's life'cause I think that model is not terribly sustainable.

46:37 For parents. And Parenting stress. is really bad for kids. You know, and this goes back to the birth rate conversation. I think we need to be thinking about parenting in ways that are sustainable.

46:48 That allow us to get help? And we also, you know, if we really think that we don't want kids In a lot of early childcare We need to support that with Universal

47:00 Paid. Parental leave. which is not available for most parents in the United States. So a lot of moms are coming up against a reality. that doesn't fit with what some of the parenting gurus are telling them is the only way to raise their kids. And I think that creates a lot of

47:16 Anxiety. If you think about the early phases of a child coming into the world, like year one, year two, year three, is there any differences in when either parent plays a different type of role? There's a little bit of difference and it t sort of depends on, you know, what the parent styles are and what the kid's situation is. But There's a chapter in my book where I talked with Richard Reeves, who's done a lot of great work on masculinity and manhood. And he says he thinks Dad should be able to get paternity leave up to their kids' eighteenth birthday.

47:49 Because a lot of the time dad find that their sort of best relationship with their kid Happens later in childhood, even in adolescence. Taking his kids on trips, teaching his sons how to drive. And so I think like dads can kinda Come in at different

48:05 points along a kid's development and provide a lot of value. I think early in infancy if mom is breastfeeding it's important for the baby to get that sort of regular access to milk. Um, you know, of course moms can pump, dads can do feeding But

48:22 It is often a source of challenge for couples. when a baby's firstborn and dads feel like Mom has a really big biological head start. you know, she has had the pregnancy, she's been able to build a bond with the child breastfeeding is like this magical formula that she can give the baby to

48:42 Um, help soothe and so I think a lot of dad struggle to find their place. in early parenthood in the first year or two,'cause they're like, What am I supposed to do? I You know, it takes a little while for dad to kinda come online. As parents, you know, dads need I think some space and opportunity to figure things out. And you often get into this dynamic where mom

49:05 is kind of the default parent in the early years and dads are waiting for their instructions. When you've gone out in the book tree and you've spoken to both fathers and mothers What is the like central point of contention? But you discover. It's funny. I was just at a friends book club meeting and it was a mix of couples. It was moms and dads. And the thing that they all got into was this concept of maternal gatekeeping. and sort of male malingering.

49:31 Which is this like double edged kind of sword. And so Maternal gatekeeping it's a somewhat controversial term, but it just refers to Anytime a mom, consciously or unconsciously, sort of puts up a roadblock to dads fully participating in parenting. And it could be as simple as the baby's fussy and crying. A mom says hand him to me.

49:53 You know, I know what to do. But over time that kinda kinda spiral into a pattern of Mom becomes the authority figure. dad is seen as like the bumbling, hapless kind of appendage. And and dads ultimately feel like their contributions aren't valued or

50:11 you know, mom doesn't really want them to have a lot of independent time. Maybe it's'cause mom doesn't trust the dad, right? Which is an area where I think having communication and Making sure there's trust before the birth is really important. But you know, the flip side of maternal gatekeeping is what's called weaponized incompetence or husbandly malingering.

50:31 Which is when, you know, dad, who's a totally competent, let's say, project manager at work who can handle lots of different spreadsheets and a c whole workflow suddenly doesn't know what to put in the diaper bag. Or, you know, when when we were at the book club meeting, one of the moms was saying their baby was a couple of days old, there was a giant diaper blowout. And she had gone out for a ten minute walk and her husband called to be like, What do I do? She's like, I've been a parent for exactly two days. That's exactly as long as you. I have no idea. You gotta figure it out. He's like, but the poop's on the wall. She's like, I'm sorry, you you can use the wipes.

51:07 You know, that same husband she told me later was in charge of packing lunches and at a certain point he said Do you give the kids anything but chicken nuggets? She said, Well there's fruit. You can cut up some Avocado, you know, like throw stuff in. So I think that is sort of like when dad act like they just have no idea and it's mom's job to solve the problem. Mm-hmm.

51:28 And so I think a lot of moms are sort of frustrated with what they see as that dynamic happening. At the same time I've talked to a lot of dad who said I would love to have done more. But my wife insisted on Organizing everything, scheduling everything, telling me what to do, I never felt like I got an opportunity.

51:46 to fully step up. So I think that's an area where Couples really need to iron some of this out even before the babes who's gonna do what? And how are we gonna balance it in a way that we both get some ownership, we both have some opportunity

52:02 And we can trust each other. Talking about that parents often report is that post pregnancy there is a change in their relationship and intimacy. Have you done any studies on that? Yes. And that is one of the most robust findings in transition to parenthood research is that there is a drop in couple relationship satisfaction often around the birth of a new baby. And it's not surprising you take two people who are having fun together

52:28 You sleep deprived them and you give them a lot of extra responsibility and then a baby who's crying and demanding that, you know, they get out of bed at multiple times. During the night. So you often get a lot of conflict around Who's gonna do what?

52:44 Um, you know, who's More connected to the baby And and you know, I think it's one of those things where Forewarned is forearmed? If couples know that this is gonna be a risky time for their relationship, they can do more

52:59 to shore up their communication before a baby's born. Have you ever quantified how different the relationship is on the other side of giving birth? We have definitely given lots of different couple relationship questionnaires and we've measured them and we've looked at that dip and we've seen That there is in fact a statistically significant drop in relationship quality. And sex life. And sex life. Yeah, I mean because of course, right? Like you've got an extra person in your bed a lot of the time or near your bed.

53:29 And if you have delivered the baby vaginally, there's also a lot of stuff that's sore and might need to get stitched up, and even more so if it was a C section birth. And does that at some point Go back to pre birth levels in terms of relationship satisfaction. Yeah, so there is a lot of variability in couples' relationship trajectories. So there are some couples for whom relationship quality continues to dip.

53:56 And often the relationship dissolves. There are also couples who report they have a better quality relationship after having parented together. You know, there's a richer relationship. Like I feel that with my husband. Like I appreciate him so much because I've seen him negotiate with terrorists in the form of our young children. So, you know, I think like How well couples fare

54:19 is gonna diverge sort of depending on how well they can kind of muscle through some of those early years. Earlier on you said that men experience postpartum depression. Um after the birth of their child sometimes.

54:35 And that's quite a unconventional thing to hear. When we think about postpartum depression, typically it's in the context of what the woman is experiencing. Yeah. Um so it's quite interesting to hear that That is a big issue for men as well.

54:48 So technically postpartum depression just means depression that occurs after the birth of a baby. That's what postpartum means. So that term postpartum doesn't necessarily mean that, you know, it's the person that's delivered the baby. It just means this is the time period after birth. And there's some evidence that dad's prevalence rate for Depression, so in new dads, it's about twice that of the general population. So if you look at

55:15 nonfothering men, they have about half the risk of depression as new dads. So there's a big uptick in depression risk. That doesn't mean that every new dad is depressed. And New dads have lower depression rates than new moms, just to be clear. But it's also not a competition. It's not a zero sum game, and I think There can be a lot of consternation, understandably, from moms who feel like

55:38 We have fought for the term postpartum depression to be widely recognized. by the medical community. We've advocated for this. Now that we've succeeded, men are sort of trying to take it over. And I'm sympathetic to that argument. And a lot of moms have said, Why don't we call it parinatal depression? Fine. I think that's totally okay. Parinatal just means Around the birth of a baby.

56:00 And that's legitimate too. But if you think about what are the risk factors for depression, either in moms or in dads, like in you know f the period following a baby's birth. It's a combination of factors, it's multi determined, it's hormone changes. It's sleep changes.

56:17 it's identity changes, it's relationship changes, like relationship conflict changes to, you know, how you show up at work. to your extended family, it can reawaken childhood traumas that were unresolved about how you yourself were parented. So all of those things are coming to the fore. And you're preoccupied by what can be very isolating and repetitive care for a young baby. And it creates kind of a perfect storm of mental health risk.

56:45 You um you've you've studied. Cortisol changes. um in couples, right? Yeah. And how they and how their their cortisol interacts with each other. Is there a biological divorce predictor? in terms of a specific way a couple's cortisol syncs up or clashes in that sort of first year of parenting, that tells you if their marriage is gonna fail. before they realize it themselves. Yeah. So I have lowed a cortisol

57:10 interconnection in my lab between couples, so how cort cortisol levels become correlated over time. I found that when couples had really strongly linked levels of cortisol, they reported lower marital satisfaction. And you'd think like, okay, they've got more similar hormones, that's probably a good thing. We found the opposite in our lab. And I think it's because

57:32 you don't actually want to be contagious to other people's stress. When one person is really stressed, it's helpful to have a partner. Who can modulate that, who can calm you down? So You don't necessarily want to be exacerbating, like amplifying the stress data. Interesting. This is fascinating. There are some other labs that have found that especially in a transition to parenthood context, more synchrony in cortisol.

57:58 can actually be a good thing if you're looking from prenatal to postpartum. But outside of the Child birth. So this is Interesting for me because I was having a conversation with someone the other day and she was telling me that she emotionally is a little bit more variant.

58:15 than her partner. Yeah. And I was expressing a similar sentiment saying that I think actually the reason why my relationship works with my fiance Melanie is because Mel is a little bit m emotionally variant. And I'm kind of the like prefrontal cortex sounding board. That kinda brings us back down. Yeah. So

58:33 her emotional variance is super useful because she's almost like a threat detector. Right. In every regard. So if our if our relationship is drifting a little bit or if we're disconnect she'll she'll know first. Or as I take a little bit l more time to like T. sort of have her empathy to these kinds of like shifts in our relationship. She's like very And

58:50 It's like a sixth sense she has. That can mean Some things are harder to deal with. And maybe she's more prone to worry sometimes. And I've I've often felt It actually because she's expressed this to me, she's expressed the gratitude of me being able to like bring her back to a place of calm. Yeah. I've often felt that that's kind of like my job.

59:13 Yeah. And I've often thought that that our relationship works because you do have two different types of People. And actually uh

59:21 This is not a plug, but I'm an investor in a company called Whoop. And um on there they have the um stress measure. Again, it's not a perfect measure and nothing is a perfect measure. But I was looking at our differences in s in s the stress response according to Whoop on the devices. Yeah. And mine is very stable. And her is much more unstable. But I I imagine that opposite's attracted in this regard.

59:45 Yeah, I mean it's interesting'cause you could think if you were paired with somebody who was super stable, life might feel boring. If she was paired with somebody who was really volatile, life might feel too chaotic. So we frequently are drawn to people who compliment. Something about ourselves and who are sort of different enough. that it can sort of expand our world view.

1:00:07 And I I worked with a Couple therapist, this is sort of his theory that It's often the differences. that drive us together. They can ultimately polarize us when things go awry.

1:00:20 So you can imagine a future where She's always the emotional one and you're always the calm one and nobody gets a chance to break out of that. And that becomes really entrenched in a way that like Pulls you apart. But you could also imagine a future What do you mean in the middle?

1:00:35 Yeah. Like you become more emotionally attuned. Yeah. And she becomes calmer and more stable. Yeah. And that's sort of the ideal, right? That's what you want is you wanna you wanna be joining around those differences. I would say that's definitely what's happened. Yeah. So that's good. That's a good sign for your relationship. Yeah. Time to have a kid. I think so. Yeah. I'm trying. You froze our embryos. Excellent. So we've got them in the freezer. Fantastic. Which is a in really interesting process. I think this is probably worth spending some time on because I think I was living under the assumption that like in my early thirties I could just sort of decide when to have a kid and I could just, you know, have sex during that little window they talk about where she's ovulating. And the kids would appear. It's not necessarily how it works. Yeah. Turns out. No, it's actually a little trickier. It's trickier than I expected. There's actually a chapter in the book where I talk about paternity uncertainty. One of the things that's really unique and interesting about humans is we conceal our ovulation.

1:01:27 So that makes us different from a lot of other animals where When a female is fertile, you know. Because she changes color. She starts dancing in a certain way. She smells different, right? Like there are all these really obvious cues. And as a result, males sort of know exactly what window to jump in on.

1:01:47 And because we conceal our ovulation as humans, it's always a little bit murky. Why do we do that? For one thing, it encourages pair bonding. Because you can't just as a man like just show up like the one day that it's time to cause a pregnancy and then take off. So you have to court a woman. You have a lot of you need a lot of repeated opportunities. So if a man actually wants to cause pregnancy, He's much better off than sticking with one woman and really investing in that relationship than he is like going out every night to find a different lady. we form stable monogamous relationships because that's actually adaptive

1:02:24 For spreading our genetic material. And it also reduces aggression. So there's one theory that it reduces rivalry between women. If you know that one of the ladies in your group is fertile

1:02:38 And you have it out for her. You wanna take her out during her fertile period, right? So concealing ovulation actually reduces that rivalry, that aggression. Okay. Um it also makes everybody a little bit more invested. In

1:02:54 Babies. Because no man knows exactly who's caused which pregnancies and as a result, everybody has a little bit of an altruist. in the future of our children.

1:03:07 Do you um I'm not sure if this is an area of research you've covered, but And maybe I'm Asking for a friend here. Yeah. Do you know what increases the probability of

1:03:16 Conceiving a child. Because I think about this a lot, I in terms of stress and feeling comfortable and all these kinds of things. Like I'm often thinking about like don't argue with her, keep her safe, make her feel really secure. Yeah. I mean I think those are all good instincts. Is there research on this? There is research on reducing stress for sure, right? Like we know that stress makes it harder to conceive. Of course the last thing you wanna tell someone who's struggling to conceive is reduce stress because that's so invalidating because you're like, I'm stressed about How hard it is to conceive, like don't you know, tell somebody be less stressed is frequently not that helpful. But I think your intuition is right that you probably want to make the environment calmer.

1:03:53 And safer. And you know, like y you can optimize nutrition. There's a lot you can do, but There's also a lot that is, you know, not up to you. And sometimes more intervention is needed. What advice would you have for New follow this.

1:04:06 This is kinda like one of the themes of my book. Great fathers are made not born. You might feel like you don't have the qualities. To become an amazing dad? But it's really about your time, your investment, the practice that you get. And the extent that you care that is gonna shape you, it's gonna build a brain and it's gonna build a body.

1:04:27 They will make you a tuned in parent. You know, give yourself grace. Like the transition to parenthood can be really challenging. But You can become an експерт. in your own child.

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1:05:54 Probably too many. What is it what are the studies that we haven't talked about that are most uh Were most formative or surprising for you? We did a study where we looked at couples plans for how they wanted to divide up baby care. Yeah.

1:06:08 So we gave them this questionnaire that we called a hu a who does what. where they were given ten common baby care tasks like changing diapers, feeding a bottle. And they indicated on a slider how much mom was gonna do and how much dad was gonna do. And then we brought them back into the lab about six months after birth. We had them do the same scale. And it was really interesting'cause couples weren't actually great predictors of how much

1:06:32 Dad was gonna do. So every single couple expected dad would do more before birth than dad was actually doing after birth. And there are a lot of reasons for that. That doesn't mean that anybody's a villain. It just means Maybe mom got more time off from work, maybe she was breastfeeding and so the baby you know, she was she was with the baby more, right? Like there are a lot of reasons why that is the case.

1:06:53 But we found that when dads were doing more, they reported that they were happier in their couple relationship. But one thing we looked at actually was how moms and dads talked about how they wanted to Divya baby care. We measured how many times did they say the pronoun we?

1:07:13 compared to when you use the pronoun I where you're talking about yourself when you're Using we you're talking about You know, you and your partner. The more weeness the dad's We're showing?

1:07:25 The more happy they were in their relationship after birth. So their investment, their willingness to Chip in. Even if they didn't totally realize all their plans.

1:07:36 was still linked with their satisfaction. And that was controlling for how they felt about their partner before birth. And it's a little counterintuitive because you might think, You know, if you get to sit back and relax and your partner is doing more that's a winning strategy. But it was actually the dads that did more who's told us they were happier. If all goes well. Next year I will be a dad.

1:07:57 I hope so. I hope so too. Yeah. So I've written on this Sort of slide in front of me here. Advice for Stephen. Mm.

1:08:04 And I would like you to give me some advice, some actionable advice on you know becoming a father, what I need to do pre, post, during Yes. Based on all the research that you have. Love it. I'm gonna write it down. Okay. So first take advantage of the window before birth. Yeah. To work on your communication with your partner. Okay. Think about how you want to divide up baby care. You know, a lot of the time people say, We'll just wing it once the baby comes. And that can be a recipe for frustration because moms feel like they're doing everything, dad feel like they're shut out from care. So, you know, have those conversations sooner. So have before the baby comes. have a conversation about how we're gonna divvy up responsibilities and make sure both people are clear. Exactly. And think about too, like What are we gonna do about our extended families? What religion do we wanna raise our kids in? What do we think about education? Like if you haven't had those conversations about values,

1:08:53 Have them now. Because then I think you're gonna ward off conflict that is gonna crop up later on. Okay. The other thing is and I would do this before birth too, build up your social support network. A lot of men's primary confidant, their primary intimate relationship is with their partner. After the baby comes, Mom is really preoccupied and

1:09:13 And dads are like what about me? So, you know, we know when we look at depression research that having a strong social support network is one of the best buffers. So You wanna be thinking, what are my friendships that I can count on And who can help me? We really need community support, so think about how can my mom help?

1:09:31 How can my friend help? And maybe like You know, your brother's got his own kids, he's too busy to take yours, but he can help in some other way, right? Like how do you plug the people into your life into what your social support needs might be? would cite this as being one of the reasons why they haven't had kids yet. Now more so than ever we don't live in communities. Yes. Now more so than ever we are lonely, isolated, living in four small white walls in a city where we can barely pay our rent and we're struggling enough to take care of ourselves. Yeah. Um, our parents often live far away now because the we're living in such a globalized world. So

1:10:09 Feeling like you don't have the support around you to give birth when you're like scraping through in a job is uh it doesn't make a lot of logical sense as to why people won't choose to have children. Yeah, it's a huge problem and I think a lot of parents really struggle with feeling lonely and isolated. And so when I say, you know, like take the time before birth to build up your social support network, that doesn't just mean with your existing Friendships and family, right? Like sometimes we end up far away from those people. It also means build community with Other expectant parents. with your neighbors, right? Like we thrive when we build community. One nice thing about becoming a parent is there are a lot of mechanisms for doing that. There are many more for moms than there are for dads. So

1:10:51 When I became a mom, I could go to breastfeeding support group, I could go to baby wearing support group, I could go like walk around the park with the Silver Lake Moms Club. Like I had all these things to plug into. Dad's did not have as many of those organic kind of community building structures available. So You know Take advantage of the ones that are there. I just talked to these guys that founded the Daddy Stroller Social Club. They've got chapters all over the country.

1:11:18 they just meet up and they go for stroller walks with their kids and it's like an amazing way for dad to connect with each other. So So build that as much as you can. So that's number two. What did we say? So build your friends, work on your couple relationship. Think about how you want to balance things out. When the baby does come, first of all protect your sleep.

1:11:38 That's really hard. Everyone says sleep when the baby sleeps. Your sleep is gonna be totally scrambled. But when you have healthy routines and good sleep hygiene even before birth you're gonna fare better after birth. So I can hear parents screaming through the cameras saying easier said than done. Yeah, I'm not trying to gaslight anything but I think when you have a good foundation of healthy sleep hygiene, you're probably gonna so things like really obvious things like Don't be on devices right before it's time to go to bed. Like dim the lights. Like make sure your room is the right temperature. Like try to dial in your sleeping environment,'cause the sleep is going to be the hardest thing, the first thing to go. I guess stressed or sleep deprived. We often reach for things that are Dopamine dopamogenic, I think the t term is, which is like foods that maybe are a little bit higher in um

1:12:25 You know, not the good stuff. Yeah. Yeah. And this there's almost a paradox there. Yeah, it's a total vicious cycle for sure. And I would say like think about becoming a parent like you're preparing to run a marathon. You know, not to the point that you become totally neurotic about it, but think about being healthy. Having things that are gonna prepare your body for this big shakeup that you're gonna undergo. And then once the baby comes, like take any opportunity to bond. Like I think a lot of men feel like I'm gonna avoid as many diapers as possible.

1:12:54 Ch changing diapers seems gross, but it's also a chance to make eye contact with your baby. And like really get to know them in a different way. So you know, jump into those baby care opportunities, like find your own style And you know, make sure like the more windows to bond The better you're gonna feel like you know your baby and the more confident you're gonna be. And then I would say give yourself grace. Like know that this is hard.

1:13:19 Know that it's temporary and know that you are, you know, you're sacrificing in the short term for a lot of long term benefit. One of the things that might p be a little bit absent from this list is an effort towards holding my relationship together with my Fiance. also important. I mean that's part of what you want to do before the baby's born, right? You wanna be shoring up the communication and having those hard conversations. The date night thing, you know, date night's probably gonna be the first thing out the windows. Yeah, that is a that is a thing that goes out the window. But you know what? One nice thing about newborns is they'll sleep pretty much anywhere. So, you know, when our babies were little

1:13:56 my husband and I would just like put the baby in a car seat and go eat in a nice restaurant. You know, it was like the last time we got to do that for a few years because once they start walking around, they're much less portable. So like take advantage of some of the early baby stuff that you can do to travel and to make sure that you get out. That advice was all advice for me. Yeah. For Steven. Yeah. Would there be any different advice if my fiancee were sat here and you were advising her? Oh, that would be fun.

1:14:23 Yeah. Yeah. I mean I would say that sort of giving yourself grace thing would go double, right? It's like know that Steven is going through a lot and then you need to know that she's going through a lot. Like her whole Sense of self is gonna be an upheaval.

1:14:39 Because like w we go through this thing, it's called metrescence. There's also patrescence. Which is just the idea that becoming a parent kinda, you know changes your priorities. It changes your sense of who you are. So she's gonna go through a lot of transformation as you will. And so sort of like hanging in with each other during that period of transformation. is really fundamentally sometimes couples can grow apart or

1:15:04 Dads are jealous that the baby's getting all the attention. He feels left out. Moms are frustrated that dad isn't doing more to help. Like All of those things can lead to conflict, and you can know that those are gonna be hot spots for conflict. And try to talk your way through them even ahead of birth. Darby, what what's the um most important thing we haven't talked about that we should have talked about as it relates to your work?

1:15:28 For all the people that are listening now that have gotten this far in the conversation. Dad bought. That's a fun topic. something we frequently joke about. We think about like Homer Simpson. But it's been found across both animal and human studies that males tend to gain weight when they become fathers.

1:15:48 Is that just the cortisol and the lack of sleep? So it's a mix of all the hormones. It's prolactin is a hormone we haven't talked much about, but that is rising. Sleep deprivation. Um changes in physical activity changes in our diet, right? Because of stress and some of the dietary choices that we're making, like I joke in the book, like my husband and I basically ate peanut butter pretzels from Trader Joe's like every day that our kids were babies. So

1:16:14 You know, a lot of stuff is happening all at once. It's kind of a perfect storm. And yet, you know, there's evidence even from animal models that you see weight changes around the transition to Fatherhood. These ones here. Yeah. Yeah. These are the Tamar and monkeys. So there was a study That looked at Tamar and Monkeys that were expecting

1:16:35 Offspring. And um it fed them a standardized diet and it compared them to tamarind monkeys. who didn't have partners that were expecting offspring And they found that the expectant dads actually gain more weight, even though they were eating the same diet as the comparison monkeys who weren't about to have a baby. And so there were these like body changes that happened even before birth in the male monkeys.

1:17:01 Why would that be? It's probably adaptive. Like if you think about increasing Your body size to be more imposing. And to better ward off attacks from rivals. And you also want a buffer in case there's scarcity, right? Like you want extra fat.

1:17:17 It looks less adaptive in a kind of modern context when we have A very obesogenic Environment. And you know, you can start to see more cardiometabolic risk. But one thing I talk about in the book is

1:17:31 Women actually like a dad bot. studies of single women have found that, you know, if you show them a series of body types The dad bot is the most popular, you know, sort of like a mildly you know, kind of like uh lightly marbled um male torso. Like, I don't know if you remember like the Ollie Muir's the British singer who they did a big tone up at the gym and posted selfies. You know, he had like a twelve pack or something.

1:17:57 And all these women online were saying like we liked the before picture. So, you know, there's something to be said for the reproductive signal of a dad bot. But part of it is if you show women torsos of different kinds of male body types. the the sort of dad bod is one that women say he's more likely to be a hands on father, he's probably gonna be more attentive, he's gonna be more caring. And those are things that are really attractive women. And that's

1:18:25 Proven by science. So if I go out and get a diad bot, you're telling me the science is says I'm getting more attractive. Yeah, go for it. Yeah. Yeah, worth a shot. Yeah. How much of your work has been Influencing by Yes.

1:18:42 Oh. This is my dad so much of my work. My parents got divorced when I was nine. And my dad became a sole apparent to me and my brothers. Um, my parents ultimately worked out a joint custody schedule so we were

1:18:58 One week with my dad, one week with my mom, we switched off every week as I was growing up. And he became a really great dad. Like he had a major learning curve. He wasn't a hands on dad. He was like an eighties dad who you know, showed up for the big stuff.

1:19:14 But when he was alone with the four of us, he suddenly had to be The guy making our meals, the guy helping us with our homework. The guy driving us to sports practice. He really rose to the occasion and I'm still really close with him. How do you think that's influenced your your overarching mission and your focus on

1:19:31 You know, dads and parenting. Yeah, so I've always been really interested in families. And you know, they say like psychologists are always trying to fix the thing that went wrong in their lives. So I'm probably like as someone who's interested in couples and families wanting to reverse like My own parents divorce. But I also like seeing my dad be a great caregiver and then realizing How much parenting research is solely focused on moms? makes me realize there's like a real gap in the literature. Like

1:19:58 you know, men play a really important role in parenting and I think deserve a lot of recognition and respect for that. It's it's interesting that I'd I'd never heard before that there's really any changes that took place in a man's brain when a man becomes a Father. I mean, I think it's not something that gets talked about a lot, which is why I wanted to write about it. But you know, we are dynamic. We're plastic. We humans adapt and becoming a parent is one of the biggest

1:20:27 Transformations. that you can experience. Have you ever done any research on the impact that divorce has On children. Not a lot, no. Which is ironic because I I'm a child of divorce, but um there is some research about it and there's definitely some evidence that it can create create some challenges for kids.

1:20:47 And Have you ever done any research on or do you have a view on where the humans are supposed to be? Monogamous. Hm. Well, okay, so the best way to describe humans is we're sort of monogamous with benefits.

1:20:59 And you know, you can see that if you look at the difference in our body size. So like Male humans are a little bit bigger than female humans, but they're not like twice as big. So like gorillas, male gorillas are way bigger than female gorillas. There's like a huge size differential. And you know, that says that, you know, like the male gorilla

1:21:20 model is one of like harem dominance. Right. Fully monogamous animals are exactly the same size. Like prairie vole males and females are almost exactly the same size as each other. They have Like no size differential. So that's like Like real pair bonding.

1:21:36 So we're sort of like somewhere in between. There are a lot of societies with different models you have. Polygamy, which is one man with lots of Women. You have polyandry, which is more rare. That's one woman with lots of men.

1:21:50 Only a few societies that have that model. But monogamy is actually the most common across lots of different cultures and societies. And I think it'cause it's it brings us some benefits. In part because of the concealed ovulation piece that helps motivate men to be more invested in a single partner. But also'cause it generally is good for kids. What do you um

1:22:10 What are you concerned about? I mean Our future as a planet. So I I definitely am concerned about What we've been talking about the declining birth rate. I'm concerned not just because it

1:22:25 Portans. Problems. you know, in our future societies. But because it what it signals, I think, about young people's hopefulness. For the future.

1:22:34 Right. I think when you look at the world and you say I don't wanna reproduce. I don't wanna bring children into this world. It to me suggests like a a nihilism and a darkness that Concerns me. Like marriage rates are dropping. Like

1:22:49 Young men and young women seem to be On different paths. Part of that is like we're in these algorithmic echo chambers. where the kind of content that we're absorbing is really different. So you see Increasing political polarization.

1:23:04 Not just in the US, but in other countries too. It's like there's more Adversarial. kind of interaction. And I don't think that's good. You know, going back to the idea that

1:23:15 Having a healthy late life is about Building strong relationships. And that that's a good predictor of our longevity. I want us to be in a world where we see ourselves as being on the same team as each other. Are you hopeful?

1:23:29 Yeah, I'm super hopeful. I'm a very optimistic person. What would have to happen for that to be the case? I'm hopeful I have teenagers, you know, I'm hopeful for them. I think they're gonna take over. And hopefully they'll be wiser than my generation has been. That's them with my husband. That's from a few years ago. I was gonna say this Yeah, y your boy's a bit older now, right? Yeah, he's fourteen now. Fourteen, okay. Yeah.

1:23:52 doctor Darby Saxby PHD. Yep, that's me. We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question to the next guest, not knowing who they're leading it for. Who? Question left for you is people are increasingly distrustful and lonely. If you could flip a switch and make one systemic change to turn the tide.

1:24:12 What would it be? Yeah. To make people more socially connected. Well, I think building a better policy environment around parenting. So I'm a big advocate for parental leave. To protect time and space to bond?

1:24:27 I think that would be a really positive change for a lot of parents in the US who don't get access to leave. W well j as a Brit. You know, I've moved over here and we we we you know we're hiring a big w workforce here in Los Angeles, New York, and around the United States. But hearing about the parental leave policies here is like mind blowing. What is the current parental leave policy in the United States? Yeah, so we are a huge outlier compared to the rest of the world, right? So like We do not have a universal paid leave.

1:24:57 policy for parents that's at the federal level. There's some different policies at the state level, so every state has slightly different policies. But frequently what's most available to parents is unpaid disability leave that's provided by the state. It's not available to every parent. If you're a shift worker, if you're a gig worker, if

1:25:17 If you're at Walmart. You probably don't have access to that paid leave, said And as a result, a lot of new moms in the US are back to work within a couple of weeks of birth. Which I think is totally bonkers. When you think about what does it take to build a healthy society.

1:25:32 The baseline federal protection is the Family and Medical Leave Act. It guarantees up to twelve weeks of unpaid. Leave. Your employer must also maintain your group health insurance during this. This time. So they don't pay you. Yeah.

1:25:47 Yeah. And that's a big problem. Because it's expensive. Really expensive. To raise kids. It it's so surprising that they haven't passed a law. uh in this direction because it's not a partisan dispute.

1:25:59 No, that's what's so surprising is that it's one of the best polling issues. it's bipartisan, right? Both Republicans and Democrats say they support leave. I think it's something like eighty percent Mm-hmm. Americans are in favor of it.

1:26:14 Yet we haven't found the political will to make it happen. Maybe we need a Woman in office. Well said. Or just a man. Wave. Or just a just an empathetic man. Let's get hands on dads.

1:26:28 To rise to power, and Mots. Thank you so much for writing this book because you're shining a light on so many issues that have been mystified through I guess pop culture in a way, but you're you're Bringing to light the reality that Men are both

1:26:44 important in the raising of children. But also you're you're doing it through a lens of storytelling, through adjacencies in different animals, and through science in such a rigorous way. And I think it starts a conversation about The upsides of being a parent. And those are, as we said, they're less obvious than the pain of being a parent. Yeah. And I think the more we can sort of rebalance that equation, the more likely we are to ha to raise a healthy generation of of kids. And again, I do pause a lot because I realise I've got friends close to me that both either don't want to have kids for whatever reasons or just can't have kids. Yeah. So there's often the the sort of stigma can go both ways in some regard.

1:27:19 Um But I'm someone that wants to have kids and it was fascinating learning about your work and it was um helps me to prepare for what I hope will be the most fulfilling journey of my life. So Doctor Darby Saxby, thank you so much for your work. If everyone wants to go get your book, I have two versions here. I have the UK version and I have the uh US version. I'm gonna hold both of them up here and I'll link it below for anyone that wants to have a read. Absolutely fascinating. And the great thing about your work is you do the sort of first party research yourself.

1:27:47 And you're at the very forefront of what we know about what it is to have a dad brain, but also more broadly about couples, how they interact. And where they can sometimes Go wrong. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. This was a delight. It's been a pleasure.

1:28:03 Uh

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