Scooter Braun: The Lie I Chased Almost Broke Me... You’re Probably Chasing It Too!

0:00 Okay. But I want the full tree. Yeah I'm nervous. Cura Braun is the man behind some of the biggest stars in the music industry. And he built one of the most disruptive entertainment empires on the planet. I've never really said this out loud until right now. At this age, I feel a lot of guilt.

0:22 Because I worked with so many young artists and we were all kids moving so fast, and we all wanted to succeed so bad. And it wasn't until I was forty years old doing some intense therapy that I realized I was so driven by the fear that I wouldn't be enough. So let's go back. As a kid growing up, I wanted to prove that I could be more than the privilege I was born with. And I created this character scooter because I didn't think Scott could achieve these things. And that mask made me absolutely relentless faking it till I make it. Like I have no right convincing Justin and his mom to be on the first plane they'd ever been on and meet me. So what were they doing? My ignorance. But it was also realizing that so much of insecurity drives us and makes us great. Like now that I'm here, I can't fail because then everyone will see that I shouldn't be here. So let's go for it. And then we had such extreme success. The whole world thought I was crushing it, but I built this mask. So big, I didn't realize how far away I'd gotten to the sky. So here I am, the top of my game.

1:18 I wanted to kill myself. And I broke down crying. Because I spent so much time trying to impress people who didn't love me.

1:29 Instead of realising how many people already did. And I was so desperate. to do the thing I had never done before. What was that?

1:43 Quick one before we get back to this episode. Just give me thirty seconds of your time. Two things I wanted to say. The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week. It means the world to all of us, and this really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn't have imagined getting to this place. But secondly, it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started. And if you enjoy what we do here. Please join the twenty four percent of people that listen to this podcast regularly and follow us on this app.

2:10 Here's a promise I'm gonna make to you. I'm gonna do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can now and into the future. We're gonna deliver the guest that you want me to speak to, and we're gonna continue to keep doing all of the things you love about this show. Thank you. Thank you so much. Back to the episode. Uh

2:30 Good. When I look at your life And I look at the things you've achieved. So much of it makes sense, but then there's this these other parts of your life where there's these big question marks that I'm hoping you can answer for me. And maybe the earliest question mark. that remains in my head is

2:49 What it is that drives you? Because from an exceedingly young age. There was this dog in you. There was something. for me when I was going through the research, it looked like a chip on your shoulder or something to prove to someone.

3:02 And so that's really where I wanted to start. I want to understand your earliest context so I can understand the cauldron that scooter was shaped in. And And the way that that made The boy turned to a man. Big question, but that's the um Starter.

3:15 A burning question in my head. You know, it's funny. 'Cause you started by asking Scooter. What drives you?

3:24 And it took me a long time to figure out as an adult that it was actually Scott. My real name. That was the real driver. And I I really created

3:33 This guy's scooter. When I was an adult. Because I didn't think Scott could achieve these things. So I almost like created a mask. And it wasn't until I was forty years old

3:43 doing some intense therapy that I had fell in love with my name again and realized The answer to your question. Which is Part of it was shame. Of why

3:55 With my family's background. Am I getting all this privilege? My father's a refugee. From Hungary. My mother her dad died when she was eleven.

4:06 you know, and her mother struggled to to raise them with family help in the Catskill Mountains. My grandparents were Holocaust survivors. And here I am. First generation born in America. And I wanted to prove

4:19 that I could be more than the privilege I was born with. And I so I had that chip on my shoulder. I wanted to prove my value. I wanted to prove I was worthy of this. He's told you you had to. No one. I think you know, as a kid growing up I read it that way because you know, you're hearing the stories of the Holocaust and

4:38 My dad every night before he put me in my brother in bed would say, Hey Boys, you're different. You're special, I hold you to a higher standard. Every night. Before we went to bed.

4:47 And we started to really believe him of like we need to hold ourselves to this higher standard, we need to do more. The idea of failing. The idea of looking at my parents and and not achieving it. That's what drove me and and years ago I was on a podcast, probably ten years ago.

5:03 I was doing a podcast with Complex with this guy Noah. I watched it. Do you remember the baseball? I literally wrote it down in my notes. Well, I will tell it again, but I will tell you on your podcast the difference I hold today. Okay. They asked me what it takes to be successful.

5:20 And I made up this analogy with baseball. And I said, Imagine Cy Young award winner C C Savathia at the height of his career. is the middle of Yankee Stadium and they invite everyone to come hit a home run. And they say You get as many of bats as you want.

5:35 And whoever hits the home run wins like the you know billion dollars, million dollars, whatever it is. And you can imagine everyone flies in from all around the world, people are filling from New York City. The line is crazy. And I said the person who's successful is not only the person who finally gets up to the plate.

5:51 And swings and misses. But stays at the plate. And now people are saying, Are you kidding me? There's lines of millions of people waiting for their turn and you're gonna stay there. You're gonna stay there and swing again. And they swing again. And then everyone's booing and they swing again and they literally keep swinging as everyone is booing them and booing them and booing them for hours. They're the most selfish person in the world. You don't deserve to be here. Get off that plate. This is not and then they finally hit that homer.

6:16 And everyone cheers'cause Oh my God, they did it. And I said that years ago. And it wasn't till recently that I realized There's one difference in the story. I never understood who the crowd was.

6:28 I always thought the crowd was being able to shut out the outside noise. I always thought the crowd was the naysayers and all the people who in your life will tell you you're never gonna achieve anything and That's part of it. But the crowd. All those people waiting in line.

6:41 It's actually you. That's what I never realized till now. That that's the difference. I always thought When people ask me what drove you, I thought it was All the outside noise.

6:52 I thought it was the fear of failure, the fear of letting them down. All these different things. And it wasn't till recently When I hit some hardships as an adult and really had to look inward, that I realized Everyone's got the same crowd. And everyone has their own issues and everyone has their own stuff.

7:08 And what actually brings you to success. And self worth. And happiness is actually understanding how to stand at that plate. And shut out the noise that's Here.

7:18 Not the millions of people around the millions of people are in your head screaming at you. Telling you you're not enough. The deep, deep lie from the most confident people they have it. So I'm glad I get to finally publicly say the difference'cause I've had it wrong all these years.

7:33 And in that analogy. You talk about how most people come up to the plate They swing once. They leave. They hear the boo. They leave. They go back to their sofa or wherever they're coming from somewhere. Or they swing tw two, three times, everyone's telling they're selfish and they get

7:45 You know, oh my God. And They're embarrassed and they leave. It takes a lot for someone to stand there in the middle of the noise. shut out the noise and understand the opportunity was given to me. I deserve this. I'm gonna keep swinging. Going back to your early context, Scott.

8:01 Yeah. You'd have oven. Yeah. He sounds like quite a tough guy. I was reading about some of the things he was saying to you when you were a kid and I was like, Dad, Jesus, like when he called you a liar. Yeah. That day and told you about living with integrity, et cetera.

8:15 My dad grew up tough. And it was almost like when you're being raised by two people who live through what they live through. They were raising him for a world that took everything away from them. They were so loving. They still raised him that way. And then he was so loving.

8:30 But he still raised us really tough. And I was the firstborn son, so I'm the oldest of all our kids all the kids. So he was very tough on me. You're referencing this time when I was I was probably Fourteen. And he uh He caught me in like a white lie.

8:47 And usually he would punish me and His punishments can be severe. But this time he just said, Hey, come here, I want to talk to you. It's not gonna be a punishment this time. I just want you to know.

8:57 You got the gift for Gab. You could talk your way out anything in in life. I used to tell you if you lie. You're not gonna be successful. I want to tell you the truth. You're so good at it.

9:08 You might be successful. But you're gonna be a liar. And I'll know you're a liar, and you'll know you're a liar. So do with that with what you want. And I was so beaten down and ashamed.

9:18 'Cause it wasn't like raining down fists on me, it was just like The guy I admired so much called me a liar. And I walked, I was messed up. And I went back to him and I said, Dad, I want you to know I'm not gonna lie, I'm gonna be a man of integrity. I'm

9:32 I yeah, I could do that, but I understand this opportunity and what you're saying. And he just looked at me and said, Okay, good. He walked away. And it was one of the best lessons ever. You know,'cause

9:43 He was right. Like you you can win certain ways, but you're gonna know. How do you how do you wanna win? You wanna do it the right way. And um And that

9:53 That tough love. I'm appreciative of it. You go to college? I went to college. You went to college, um you started a business at college doing events. Yeah, well I I started selling fake IDs. That's what I started doing. Yeah, I sold fake IDs because my friends sold fake IDs and I thought he had a bad business plan, so I was like I'll market them, you make them. Um and and quickly uh

10:16 He broke my golden rule of not keeping in touch with people we sold to. So I stopped immediately because I didn't want to get caught. And um I walk by a nightclub. And said how much.

10:26 Would you give me if I brought people here the next week and That was the beginning of my Atlanta party promotion days. Why did that succeed? What is it about you as you look back in hindsight, your skill set, your ability That made

10:39 Sort of parlayed into music, but A combination of things. I think one Uh I wasn't a threat. to the freshman girls. I had a high school sweetheart at the time. I was very committed to her.

10:52 I was a decently cute kid and I could dance. So I was a good person to go out with and have fun, so Uh, that was one thing. Number two I was playing sports, so I had a lot of friends in different, you know, teams and different arenas. And three, I was in the right place at the right time. You know, I uh

11:07 That first party I threw was successful. And at that first party I was approached by A guy named Jason Weaver, he's an actor. And he was in this old Michael Jackson movie I used to watch as a kid where he played young Michael. And he came in and he said, This is crazy'cause Atlanta at that time was very segregated in the club scene.

11:24 So it was like If you were black, you went to a party that you know, a club that played hip hop. And if you were white, you went to a club they played techno. But I didn't Grow up in the South. And I wanted to listen to hip hop and rock and roll.

11:36 And we played that and when Jason came in he was so fascinated to see A mixed crowd listening to hip hop. that he was like, You want to see how the other half lives. And Jason brought me to a club called Velvet Room on Tuesday nights in Atlanta, Georgia. It was ran by a guy named Alex Gidewan.

11:52 Alex was so fascinated to see me in the line, he said, You know, let this kid in here. And Alex taught me how to promote. He taught me what the value of the door actually was. What I should be getting from the bar. And I would start moving my parties and I would spend all my money that I made on Thursday nights at the college party on Alex's Tuesday night.

12:09 Meeting people, meeting rappers, meeting singers, meeting different people. Faking it till I make it. And getting people to come back and forth my between my parties. And that's how I started. That's how I met Jermaine. That's how I met Luda. That's We all kinda came up together. Relationships.

12:24 Why did he give you a foot up? So many people are are early in their careers and they're having these chance encounters, but those those aren't converting into a relationship. And when I look at your life, there's people you meet along the way who end up being really, really pivotal. And it appears to me as an objective observer that you have An ability.

12:42 To form good relationships, loyal lasting relationships with people. One, I think it's important to pay people respect. You know, I came from a household where you respect your elders. And when I was coming up, I was nineteen. So I was very respectful to the people that are giving me an opportunity.

12:58 And I never forgot. Who helped me along the way. I think the other thing There was a big part of my philosophy was. Let your work be the reason they want to meet you.

13:09 I didn't want to be that kid who was going, Hey, give me an opportunity. And by the way, sometimes that works. But I wanted them to see what I was doing and then say, Come over here. I didn't approach Jermaine Dupree. To

13:23 Work it's also deaf. Jermaine heard about me and my parties and he met me and he said, You have more potential than parties, why don't you come work for me? I didn't approach you know, ludicrous who was coming up as a rapper and say, Let me do that. I didn't a lot of people in my life I I never really approached them and then

13:39 Even as my life changed and I got older. I made a lot of relationships and I have a lot of relationships now that I've never done business with. And people go, Well, you have that, we can't why don't you? And it was because I never wanted anyone to feel Probably my insecurity is I never wanted anyone to feel like I needed them.

13:57 I never wanted to feel like a user is like my own insecurities of how they might see me. But I think on top of that I just It was that same old thing of never wanting to be in a position Or you're begging somebody for something. I called you.

14:12 And we s spoke to him and I listened to the recording again just before you arrived, but What Jermaine said in that voice recording is also pretty similar to what your dad said. Which is they both saw something in you. You're this young kid who doesn't have a extensive track record of decades of work, but they're all betting on you.

14:30 In some way. As you look back on your life, w what were they betting on? Because they all seem pretty sure. But you had something. My ignorance.

14:39 I think I think uh I no one told me I shouldn't be there. And he offered you a job for working at his company, which meant you had to drop out of y college? I didn't have to drop out of college. I did because um I went to work for Jermaine. And now I'm traveling all the time, I'm still throwing parties. You know, we're gearing up for Usher's album, we're doing this, we're doing that. I'm working with the Young Bloods, Anthony Hamilton, like it's w and I'm 19, 20 years old.

15:07 And My gray point average went from a three point something to a one point something. And they brought me in on academic probation. And they said um You know, what's going on with you? Is there a drug problem? Are you being abused?

15:21 And I said, No, no, no, no, I'm an entrepreneur. I'm building this. I want to build a record label. I'm working for Jermaine Dupree. You know, and this guy's looking at me like I'm insane. And he's this dean looks at me at Emory. And he says, Uh, do you know the r story of Robert Woodruff? And I said. You know, Robert Woodruff, he goes, Yeah, the founder of Coca Cola, the Woodruff Center, the largest endowment in Emory. And he tells me this amazing story of this entrepreneur.

15:44 Who created Coca-Cola? who is the largest endowment in our university, and I'm so hyped. I'm like this guy gets me. He gets me, he's gonna help me. I'm gonna be at the school and just when my hopes are really high. He looks at me and goes, You know what we're gonna do, right?'Cause we're gonna stop all the nonsense. You're gonna focus on school.

16:02 You're to get a degree because the chance of you being like Robert Woodruff without an Emory degree is like one in a billion. And the moment he said it, that's when I dropped out of school. What did your father say? Before you ask me about my father, I want to ask you a question. You made a face and you paused.

16:18 Yeah. Because you have your own story of something happening like this. I just have a By I just have a real hate for dream busters. Yet every great story we have of success.

16:29 people tell of that pivotal moment. Whether it be this dean. Or Michael Jordan being cut by his coach, his the varsity coach when he was younger. We all talk about the dream buster. as a catalyst to our success.

16:42 Mm-hmm. And you know, in life I've I've kinda feel like everything, even you know, it's like I have this tattoo amorfati. You know, from Marcus Aurelius. It's the a concept love of one's fate. In Latin. And it's this concept that you have to love.

16:55 The sorrow as much as you love the joy. You have to love the pain as much as you love the success. You know, it's If it wasn't for that Dean, I wouldn't have had that chip on my shoulder in that moment. I would just push you on the fact that like you hate these dream busters, but I am so grateful for them. I I'm grateful for the dream busters, however, and I this is actually something I was talking to my friends about in our group chat this morning.

17:15 Is it okay in your view to be driven? Bye. Haters. It's so funny because if you're only driven by haters, no. But I think that everything

17:26 Plays its role at the time. Like um Robert Green. Mm-hmm. He talks about this idea of embracing your dark side.

17:34 Yeah. And I think that there's truth in that. Like you know, if If you continue to fight something that's naturally inside of you you're gonna really struggle with it. If you can accept that's part of you can use it as fuel and you can move right through it.

17:47 So Yes, there are things that drive me my curiosity for for where I go. My children now are big driver for where I go and how I live my life. The people I love, the joy that I find, the introspective voice that now I can go to when I'm

18:02 Meditating or you know, working you know on myself. But doubt from someone. Who dislikes me? Or doubt from a hater.

18:11 I can pretend like I'm Zen as much as I want. But if I'm being really honest with myself. Sometimes. That's the fuel that I need. So I think if it's if it's solely one thing

18:23 It's not healthy. Mm. You get fuel and different influences from different places and don't try and be ashamed of The one that doesn't fit in your narrative of how evolved you are. Yeah. You know then it's okay.

18:37 You established S B projects I believe after leaving Germain. When you were twenty four, twenty five years old? Twenty four. And I read that you'd kind of had this plan to sign three different types of acts. Yeah. First one Asher Roth, who's a very famous rapper. Yeah, I wanted to sign three types of acts, and Asher fit them all for one, Justin for the other, and the other one I never found.

18:59 So for people that don't know, is a very successful rapper. Um what was the mold you were trying to fit? M. was a very big rapper, one of the biggest rappers of all time.

19:10 And I was in college and I'm watching all like these At the time these frat guys. But they loved hip hop. And I don't think they had anyone who spoke to their life. So I wanted a kid

19:21 Who could speak to college life who had the skills. to be credible within the world of hip hop. Where did you think you could find talent? What did you believe I'm telling you every aspect of my life If we talked about every little thing that I've been in, you said earlier I've been in all these different things, and probably your listeners have no idea what the hell I am. So they're like, what is he talking about?

19:42 But every time I put myself in that next arena. It's this why not me? I had no right contacting Asher. On my space. I mean, at that point, I could say, okay, I came from So So So Deaf. I was the youngest vice president music because of Jermaine. When I was at So Deaf, I was twenty years old. So I had the right, you know, some credibility other people didn't have. I definitely could do that.

20:03 But to tell him to drop out of college and move down to Atlanta, Georgia for be the first artist on my record label to You know find Justin in Canada and convince his mom and him to be on the first plane they'd ever been on to come down to Atlanta and meet me. I mean it it was I was twenty five years old, twenty four years old. Like these are

20:22 I was insane. Interesting. When we talk about Belief we we ask if you know scooter, did you have belief? But In your case you had the lack of limiting beliefs. Which shows up the same as having the there was just like nothing.

20:36 Because I was so driven by also the fear that I wouldn't be enough. that back then I would have lied. I would have said, Oh, I had such a deep belief in in my in my conviction that I could do it. It was partially that, but it was also Why not me? And no one told me I can't be here. And also now that I'm here, I can't fail because then everyone will see

20:59 That I shouldn't be here. And so it was this This fear, excitement, fear, excitement. Conviction.

21:07 That's what I always tell people when I meet them as young people, I'm like, You don't have kids. You can starve a little bit. Your parents want you to go the easiest route because they don't want to see you suffer, but now is the time when you should be suffering. If you want to go for it. Now's the time when you don't have anyone to support where you can really

21:25 really go for it because later on in life you gotta think about other people. And Back then, nineteen years old to twenty four. I I'm let's go for it. And the second artist.

21:39 That you signed. Who's Justin Beaver? Yeah. Just in beaver. You were twenty six years old when you came across Justin? Twenty five. Twenty five. And he was twelve?

21:51 Thirteen. Damn. You discover Justin by watching him. A so thick. Video? Yeah, I will I saw a bunch of videos.

22:01 From his church, his mom had posted, and the one that moved me the most was So Sick by Neil. It's my answering machine. Hello Right now. Please

22:15 No, it makes no sense. You walk down the door. The only way I hear your boys Any c

22:29 You must have been asked this a gazillion times. But the the actions you then took based on seeing a kid on On a video. Uh Bizarre.

22:38 Yeah. Yeah. They are bizarre. Yeah, I like Googled uh The background of

22:45 of the church to look up the businesses and then called the regions of Canada school boards to figure out where he was'cause his mom had a different name than him'cause Her name was Millette, his was Beaver. So I I went a little crazy to find him within twenty four hours.

23:01 Once I saw him I kinda knew. In person or No, I knew when I saw online. I was like this is the kid I've been looking for. And I I felt the same way about Asher. I mean I relentlessly kinda pursued both of them.

23:12 I had a clear vision to like what I could do and what he was capable of. And it was funny'cause no one believed me. I mean, even after we met and we did the deal and we started working together, literally no one believed me and U two was not a big thing back then, so When I took him from

23:27 sixty thousand views and we took him to like sixty million. Now he's like one of the biggest YouTubers in the world, and everyone's like, Yeah, you youtubers don't turn into musicians, though. What were the first principles that you saw in him? Like what were this'cause I when I think about having those m moments where my intuition just says yes to something. Tone. Okay. Charisma.

23:46 Um It was like He had incredible tone and he had soul. And he had charisma. He was doing like there's one where there was an instrumental and he was like jumping around and I just believed in him instantly. And then when I met him

24:00 He had even more charisma. He was funny. And I was like, All right, this kid, let's go. And he was an athlete, so he was competitive. He was a very special, special talent and very unique individual. And uh Those were special times.

24:15 And you flew in. No, they flew to me. Oh, okay. For like an hour and a half that night and uh First plane ride they ever went on.

24:24 And I remember he was so excited that there was a fridge inside his hotel room. Speaking of you, Scooter really believed in Justin from day one. He put everything on the line for us. And and they put it on the line for me too.

24:42 You know, they believed in A twenty five year old kid. And uh We were able to achieve some amazing things. And um

24:52 Very proud of what we achieved and Always rooting for him. What's your relationship with Justin now? Um Not the same that it was. I think, you know, these things go with ebb and flows. I think

25:06 There comes a point where I understand he probably wants to go on and and show that He can do it. I mean we We worked together for so long and we had such extreme success.

25:18 And I think you get to a point as a as a man. Or you wanna show the world you can do it on your own. And uh I completely respect that. And I think at this point That's what he's doing. And

25:32 Myself and and everyone from the old team is rooting for him. But I stopped managing two and a half years ago. And now I'm I'm a cheerleader from the side and You know I I want everyone that I worked with to do well. I think sometimes when you walk away from management, I've heard managers which I never understood, they'd be like,

25:50 deep down behind closed doors, they don't want to see them do as well without them. It's almost like you know, them succeeding is is tarnishing your legacy. Mm-hmm. Every artist that I worked with I believed in them'cause they were great.

26:06 And if they continue to be great. I think that's the Best testimony to that belief. So to see just to move forward and succeed to see Ariana, you know, with what's happened with Wicked in this past year.

26:21 Um See Tori Kelly. You know, to see everybody that I've ever had a chance to work with. See them go on and do great things.

26:31 On their own. Awesome. Is there anything that these individuals have in common at all? These people that

26:39 Pain. Pain. Yeah. I think it's pain, personally. I think um

26:45 to be able to convey emotions on the level that it touches people around the world. You have to understand emotions. And I think um I think great artists Great performers.

26:59 are able to draw from different places and sometimes it's joy and sometimes it's pain. Um, and sometimes it's just a natural God given gift. Humphrey is hard work. Oh, it's very important.

27:12 I think especially in the beginning. In the beginning. You're stepping into a pool where everyone talented wants to be seen. And You have to work incredibly hard.

27:25 to break out of the noise. So I and by the way, I don't think that's particular to artists or music or film or TV or anything I've done with entertainment. I think that's Every business I've ever been a part of.

27:38 The first three to five years of any business I've ever built in any arena. Or worked with anyone who's ever achieved anything great. Those first three to five years are the most important. Sounds like something I said to my girlfriend.

27:53 Um It sounds like you know, same thing with relationship maybe, but put in the foundation those first three or five years and really be there together. I I really believe that. I think You put in that time in the beginning and you can break through the noise. And set a foundation for everything else.

28:09 When I think about Justin's career, he he had a a wobble. Um where he Well, Involved in lots of sort of Uh

28:18 You know, it looked like he was going through a bit of difficulty. And I reflect on One of my friends, Liam Payne. and who was on this podcast and who's sadly passed away now, but He also around the same age was thrown into the public eye at a very young age. He joined One Direction, went on crazy, crazy wild roller coaster ride that is one direction. And he admitted on the podcast that he struggled. He struggled with addiction, he struggled with lots of pain that he was dealing with. And his story has is a

28:45 An inspiring one ultimately, but also a tragic one in many respects. Why does this happen? To so many young artists. Childhood stars. You know, when you ask me this question

29:05 At this age I feel a lot of guilt. Um, I feel a lot of guilt because I worked with so many young artists. And like I told you I hadn't taking the time to look at myself or Um

29:19 do the therapy myself until I was older. So I didn't understand at twenty five years old, at twenty seven years old, at thirty years old. That They each were coming from very unique backgrounds.

29:35 of their own stuff with their own families and their own childhoods and growing up this way. And Бинг сінба. And being judged by the whole world at a very young age. And I think it it's two things. I think one, human beings are not made to be worshiped.

29:50 I think we're made to serve. And I think that when We worship human beings. it changes something within us. It it messes us up a little bit. Because that's not what we're built for.

30:02 And I think that can be very confusing. And I think being able to transcend the childhood of, you know, people cheering your name and and everything else at that level. And Get to the place where the artists I've worked with are, where they are in healthy relationships and and with their families and and still working through stuff, but like having a human experience, I think it's a testament to their strength.

30:23 So I think that's part of it. I just think the nature of Of being on that stage. you know, that young and people chanting your name. And I didn't realize that till you know, I got older. The other side of it is

30:35 I never understood even without me. I didn't have that. Childhood. Yeah, I broke. And what I think also is important is um

30:45 I don't think we can push everything. I think adversity is important. We can't just talk about mental health and say adversity shouldn't exist. But I do think I understand the importance now of of really putting in the time to make sure mental health is addressed. And that we have an outlet to speak to someone outside of the crew.

31:06 Um And There's a lot of things that I learned within myself that I wish I knew back then. I met those one direction kids when they started. They came to LA and actually the whole group'cause

31:18 Nile reached out to me. They came to my house to hang out in the back yard when they were first starting, before they really blew up like their first US visit to LA. And I met Liam back then. And I met the excited young kid with the with the voice. Yet each one of them has had a different experience.

31:37 Each one of them has had a different story of perseverance and tragedy. Um And that's the thing, it's like with kids, like you just never know. What the cocktail's gonna make of life.

31:51 Um And I think I think You know, that idea of We're not made to be worshipped.

32:00 I can play funny things on the mind. The brain isn't even developed until you're Twenty five, they tell me. I don't even know if mine's developed at 43. But I've sat here with so many neuroscientists that have said that to me and also addiction scientists that say the brain is still learning and building its sort of like dopamine receptors and stuff. So Liam was telling me that he he was up on stage in front of a hundred odd thousand people in Dubai Huge adrenaline rush, huge surge of dopamine. Then they drive him back to his hotel. He was like they lock the door, and it's just me in there with the mini bar. And then the s the next day it's the exact same thing. Stage, car, hotel. And then without the stage, you're looking for that dopamine hit.

32:37 Yeah. No, it's it's uh Like I said, it's I'm very proud. Of

32:47 The job that we did and how much we cared and how much the team cared. For all the years that we did it. But it doesn't mean I don't look back and wish that I knew. What I know now. How would you have been different?

33:00 Hm. I think I would have had a therapist on the road for all of us. You know, I think that's the biggest difference. I think I would've slowed down all of us. I think I made would have made every single one of us Stop. And do that hour.

33:15 You know Because we were all kids. And we were all moving so fast. And we all wanted to succeed so bad, and we all wanted the excitement and we wanted to make kids dreams come true and bring them down from the upper decks to put them in the front row and, you know, to help Justin get that number one and, you know, to help Ariana do this. And I we all wanted it and we we were excited and we were doing something

33:40 That was so unique and everyone in the world was so excited for us. You know, oh my gosh, you guys are a part of this. This is so cool. I didn't know I didn't know. to go inward for the dopamine hit.

33:58 And I wish I would have known that. And been able to Sure back then. When Justin ultimately said that he wanted to kinda go it alone and do it himself. Does that hurt?

34:10 No. Not at that point. I think uh I I was also at that point. You know, at at that point it had been a couple years where I knew I wanted to do something else. And I

34:21 I wanted to find out who I was. I wanted to experiment with you know, a different career and we were both communicating enough with each other, everyone the writing was on the wall. How many clients That we would know a lot. No, surely not. Carly Ray Jepson and then

34:39 Uh Martin Garricks Uh yeah. Yeah. Can you Give me the top ten. Off the top of your head that you work with. I would never say a top ten. No good manager knows how to do that. But I got I got to work with a lot of incredible artists a long time. I mean

34:54 From Zack Brown band to black I Ps, to Justin, to Ariana, to You know, Martin Garrick's we signed um while he was at Club Med. With his parents. We contacted him. 'Cause he had the song Animals and we heard it.

35:07 Um To Dan and Shay, to I mean, just to so many over the years. It was pretty incredible to be a part and so close to so many. Incredible stories. You know, and to see

35:20 You know, going to a coffee shop to see Tori Kelly sing. To seeing her walk on a Grammy stage. It just I got to see really incredible Moments. In people's lives.

35:30 to you know Demi telling me I want to sing the national anthem at the Super Bowl. you know, and show me a tweet that she wrote this years ago to see her actually perform, you know. You know At the Super Bowl. You know, so

35:45 It's It's just been a really cool experience, but I got to see it in so many different arenas. And and you're only there for a flash, right? You have this little tiny small moment here, a little tiny small moment here. But to get to witness so many different rides. It's a really cool thing. I remember as a kid I heard this great saying Don't just read stories, try to be a part of them. Try to be a story.

36:07 And I think I always try to take that into my life. Crazy crazy wise. I was I was there was a second ago when you were talking and I was just I stepped into your body for a second. And I ran the highlight reel of your life just as

36:20 Justin's Um S. Manager. I was thinking, God, like the places you must have been and the things you must have seen.

36:28 Just as his manager, let alone working with all of these other great artists. It's not just a lifetime of experience, it's multiple lifetimes. A fortune. I met a guy. Years ago.

36:41 And um I'll name drop here, so I I got invited to meet Charlie Munker. Oh yeah, the investor. Yeah. And Everyone was asking him questions about

36:52 business and I asked him a question about life. And afterwards. His guy contacts me, he goes, Charlie liked your question. He wants you to meet this other guy that he really likes, who's a brilliant businessman. And I meet this other gentleman. And he tells me he's a statistician by trade, and the reason he's excited to meet me

37:07 is because people in my world who are part of so many different stories live in dog years. Cause they get to be a part of kind of so many o other people's things. Yeah. Um but it's uh It's a unique thing, but I told you it Yeah. The biggest lesson I learned from all of it Is that at one point in my life

37:29 I received so much praise. And then the next moment. Without me expecting it. I received so much hate. And

37:41 On the other side of all these experiences, I've come to learn that both were not deserved. The people who were praising me did not know me. And the people who hated me did not know me. It's like one of my favorite uh I yeah, I saw Tom Hanks say this on like an actor's table one time. He goes, This too shall pass. Remember that? It's so great. He's like, You think you're killing it?

38:02 This two shall pass. He's like, You think it's gonna be hard, this two shall pass. Like It's true. So what's you anchor in then? If so much is Transient.

38:11 At this point In life generally, what what does one anchor in? If everything is transient, if you know this two shit. We don't have kids yet. I have a major anchor in three kids. Major anchor. What if you don't have kids? If you don't have kids, that's when you should definitely do the self work because your anchor's you.

38:27 And and the truth is I've really gotten to a beautiful place of I fully expect To be misunderstood in the future. I expect tomorrow something can happen. Where

38:37 Especially because my life has been somewhat in the public eye. You get misunderstood all the time. People make up stories, they twist things, someone's hurt, and it comes out this way, that way. I could get pulled into this stuff. It's happened to me already. And so I've come to terms with that. What I've realized is

38:52 Being on the other side of it already happening to me. All it does is end up making room for something else. So for me, what anchors me is I no longer think I'm in control. But I think I'm participating in one hell of a game.

39:06 I can't control the outcome. I'm Steph Curry and LeBron could be at the height of their game, but even they can't control the game. They can influence it. And So that for me, it was like The first half of my life was I'm manifesting, I'm manifesting, I'm doing this, that youthful

39:21 Energy. And then You turn forty and this stuff happens, and you start the other half of your life, you're like, I'm you know, Michael Singer, I need to surrender. You know, you're at their surrender experiment. You know, like everything, surrender. And then I realized there's a balance.

39:33 There's this balance of I'm participating in an incredible game. And I can bring what I bring to the table and I'm not gonna be able to control this game. But maybe I should start enjoying the game a little bit. I'm out here.

39:47 I'm participating. That's pretty freaking cool. And I think That is what anchors me at this point. That I have No idea. what the next five to ten years of my life are gonna look like. I used to think I did.

40:00 Now I know it can change like that. And I think I'm excited for love in the future. I'm excited for adventure. I'm not looking forward to the pain, but I know if it comes

40:11 There's a reason for it. So tell me about a An artist that you believed in. You don't have to name them, of course, but an artist you believed in you were wrong about. Something you really just your first principles were off. And in hindsight. I had an artist

40:27 Who was Honestly, maybe the most talented artist I ever signed. His name was Spencer Lee. And Spencer Lee

40:39 Got brought to me by a buddy my name is Freddy. Uh And we did a deal for Spencer and Dave Appleton, or I told you about my buddy was trying to handle in management and Dave started calling me saying, Hey, there's some real addiction issues here. And we're really struggling.

40:53 And we put'em into rehab and then He wrote one of the most incredible songs, River Water. MVO! What's me clean

41:17 Baby! About Addiction. And when he got out, we thought, okay, he's gonna be clean and everything great. We made this video and we started getting going. We made the Spencer Lee band.

41:47 And he we started Paying for everything to kinda get it going. And he started doing festivals and we started getting phone calls of like hey people are coming to see this Insane talent with this voice.

41:59 And He went Uh back to drugs. And um He overdosed last year.

42:08 And uh he's no longer with us. And we got the news'cause his grandmother, who's the sweetest, she called to say thank you for trying and everything else and That was the love of her life and she lost him. And um That one I got wrong.

42:24 Because I thought you know, maybe if we get the records right, if we get the music, if he gets on the road. You know he gets that rehab like Yeah, this would be enough.

42:35 It's one of the biggest tragedies'cause I I can't tell you. How good he was. I mean he just a special special talent and you listen to this guy's records. Sometimes I always say I wanna like reach out to his family and be like, Let's just release the records.

42:49 Like the ones that I have that the world's never heard. And I you know, I All the money should go to You know, a cause. You know, to help people in a similar situation. I wish we could do that. I'd love to get permission to do that.

43:02 Um 'Cause he was one of the most special talents I ever came across. They don't want to release the records? It's complicated. Last week I was in New York interviewing one of the world's leading addiction experts in

43:18 If for anyone that hasn't been through addiction. It's a very confusing thing to observe. Because as an unlooker you just go To stop that. you're self destructing. But if you've had friends that have dealt with addiction, you realise that it's not an attempt to self destruct, it's like an attempt to

43:34 It's yeah, it's like it's maybe the last it should attempt to do the opposite to survive. To survive from something. When I was dealing with addiction With someone I managed. Um

43:43 Someone I really respect. Told me about Alan on. uh Alan on is for a support. It's like AA, but for the families. Uh and they recommend I go and I went to two Alan on meetings. And it was very helpful at the time. And one of the things I learned there

43:58 was one this concept of it is not your fault. You this is not about you, that you have to love them where they're at. You can you know, but the biggest thing I really learned was be a rock. You know, like this person said to me Home doesn't move around. Home is a constant place that someone can come back to.

44:17 If someone beats addiction, it is because of them. You know, they've made that choice. And they deserve the credit. But if you want to be helpful, this person said, just try to be a constant place. They know that no matter what, at the end, they can come back. And they're and you'll be waiting.

44:31 Understanding your story, you stuck around with Justin when he went through his his difficult times and people were calling for you to drop him and to Maybe move on. Yeah, I think it was an interesting time, but like I said, if someone beats that, they deserve the credit. So I don't I don't deserve any credit in that. He does. You ended up.

44:48 posting that post on your Instagram which sent uh a ton of headlines around the world saying that you were Quitting. Music management. Twenty three years. After twenty three years. There was a little bit of a question mark though, because

45:00 I think you referenced in something you'd posted that. part of your inspiration or a catalyst was a particular artist. Had Decided that they wanted to go their own way. Who was that?

45:12 I prefer not to say that there's a bunch of legal stuff around that and everything else, but uh She Yeah. Uh she informed me and I respected the hell out of it that she was she felt that way. And uh

45:23 But I had had that conversation with others too. And And um I w I mean I wrote it all in twenty three years. The reason I posted that at the time was I'd already made the decision a year prior, but I'd never talked about it.

45:37 And you know, when you're running a big company, there's all these, you know, legal things and we had to wait till everything was in order. And then I could say it. And um And they were like, Well, you've already been out of it for a year, why say it now? And I just felt

45:50 I need to say it for me. But I also need to say it so I hold myself accountable not to ever go back. Okay. And I you know, it was way too long. It was like ten slides on Instagram. No, it was incredible. But it was uh I appreciate you saying that, but it was from the heart and I remember Waking up.

46:08 posting it and then just like falling down. Because I was like, Oh my God, like This thing I've been doing since I was nineteen is now over. And what I wrote in there is the truth. My entire adult life, that's all I had known. So not being

46:23 In that situation. I didn't know what a normal adult life was like. I didn't know you could have a weekend. Like I didn't know You know, like That's what it was. I was on call all the time for twenty three years.

46:36 And it wasn't one, it was a lot. And um Finding out what a normal adult life was like was pretty wild to me and also really interesting, but I don't I had some of the most incredible memories. And I'm very grateful, but if you remember

46:49 Do you remember the Barry Gordy quote at the end? No. I don't. Barry Gordy's the founder of Motown Records. Barry Gordy Is a kid from Detroit.

46:58 Michael Jackson's theatre play. Barry Goody. Correct. Yes. So before Barry Gordy, black musicians would make incredible music and a white person can come along and just cover it and make it theirs. And Barry Gordy took that back and gave us Motown Records and changed the entire music industry.

47:17 And I was at a dinner. And Barry Gordy was placed next to me. And I was just like freaking out. Barry Gordy sitting next to me. And we start talking. And this is years before.

47:30 He said, I'm gonna tell you a story and you're gonna need it one day. And Boy was he right. And he said, you know Do you know what the Motow twenty five was?

47:40 And I said, Absolutely, it was the first time Michael Jackson did the moonwalk to Anna Ross, and he's like, Oh, you really are a Motown fan. I was like, Yeah. And he said, Well, do you know I didn't want to go? I said, What? He goes, Yeah, I didn't want to go. At the time, Michael had left for CBS Records, Diana had left for CBS Records, and everyone was saying that I took their publishing and

47:58 I was like the bad guy for all these people that I had supported and lifted and like I was so angry. And I didn't want to go. I said, Well, what changed? He goes, My family made me go. And I said, Yeah, because I remember you were in the balcony and I kept cutting to you. And he goes, You know, the first I get there and Diana Ross is hosting.

48:13 Michael's gonna perform. He's the biggest thing in the world. I'm I'm mad. But As the night went on, I suddenly realized little Barry from Detroit would have lost his mind knowing this was coming. Yeah.

48:25 He said young man It will never end the way you want it to, but it doesn't mean it didn't happen. And I didn't know how much I needed that in the years to come. You can plan it, you can try and control it as much as you want, but Barry Gode was right. It will never end the way you want it unless you're Derek Jeter on the Yankees. But or you're you know, or you're messy. But Most of us it's not gonna end the way we want it. However, it happened.

48:53 And how cool is that? Like How cool is that that like we get to do this and get to have this life. And I thought That's the way I want it to end twenty three years because

49:03 Yeah. M Stopping managing and ending managing and It didn't end the way I necessarily wanted. I would have wanted a giant concert where all the artists come out, we celebrate everything we did together. And ended pretty abruptly of like

49:17 Oh, this is it? And some wanna leave and some want to stay and Yeah, I'm done. I don't want to do this anymore. And some people understood it and other people didn't. But it happened.

49:29 And no one could ever take that away. Did you ever feel betrayed? Oh of course. But I'm sure that goes both ways. Like as much as I felt betrayed, like

49:39 Music business can be heartbreaking. Management can be heartbreaking. If you watch David Geffen's documentary, he says uh Management is like move the mountain over here and they say was supposed to be there. You know, but like But at the same time. It must be heartbreaking the other way.

49:55 It's such an interdependent relationship and it's such I don't Yeah. You know, the people always say stay on your side of the street. I try to do that. It's easier for me to move on with my life and be happy.

50:07 by staying on my side of the street. So yeah, I've definitely felt betrayed a hundred times. I've definitely felt misunderstood so many times. But I also try to give empathy of If someone is doing this to me, they must be hurting for some reason. And maybe I did play a role in it, even if I don't know I did. You know, so

50:27 Do you feel betrayed? Yes, especially in a job of service. Yeah. But yeah, you're right, we all do have a preconception of how. How the run will end.

50:38 Man, we're all the protagonists in our own story. Now that there's been some space between that decision. Yeah. Two and a half years. Two and a half years since that decision. Wow, two and a half years. Wow.

50:54 Six months ago. Well, it was two and a half years for me. Okay. It's been probably a year and a half since I probably posted that. Okay. You had some space since that decision. Correct decision. Yeah. Oh yeah. Even high conviction now that it was the right thing? Yeah, and like I said, it happened.

51:07 In hindsight, it was what it was supposed to be at the time it was supposed to be. I think the reason why I wrote twenty three years and why I quit I wouldn't say quit w when I retired and stopped doing that when I moved on. How about that? When I moved on to something else. was because uh what exactly what I wrote. It was

51:23 I was too afraid to find out who I was without it for so long that I probably should have left earlier. But I finally got to a point where I realized Either you do it now or Something b you're gonna have to learn the hard way again. You know, so it was time and

51:40 it was time for some of the most amazing artists that I worked with to also spread their wings and do their own thing. I think B2B marketers keep making this mistake. They're chasing volume instead of quality. And when you try to be seen by more people instead of the right people, all you're doing is making noise, but that noise rarely shifts the needle. And it's often quite expensive. And I know, as there was a time in my career where I kept making this mistake, that many of you will be making it too. Eventually, I started posting ad on our show sponsors platform, LinkedIn, and that's when things started to change. I put that change down to a few critical things. One of them being that LinkedIn was then and still is today the platform where decision makers go to, not only to think and learn, but also to buy. And when you market your business there, you're putting it right in front of people who actually have the power to say yes.

52:28 And you can target them by job title, industry, and company size. It's simply a sharper way to spend your marketing budget. And if you haven't tried it, How about this? Give LinkedIn ads a try and I'm going to give you a hundred dollar ad credit to get you started. If you visit LinkedIn.com slash diary, you can claim that right now. That's linkedin.com slash diary. You sold your company for one point one billion dollars, that's what I read.

52:54 You can't confirm or deny it, but I can confirm. But I don't like talking about it. Um At thirty nine years old, roughly. I was about to turn forty. You talk about laying on the beach.

53:11 Yeah. With your belly out. Yeah. I mean, with a significant amount of money in your bank account without the same job that's sort of demanding your time seven days a week. A lot of people are scared of that.

53:25 But uh not not the money, but the gap. The uncertainty, the space. Honestly, the timing of when it happened for me I was in such a place like I said of surrender. that I really wasn't looking at it as like

53:44 achievement or money or something like that. I more looked at it as What are you gonna do now? Are you gonna try and control or you gonna participate? Like I told you earlier. And I started to just be curious for the first time. Instead of I love this idea of a competitive mind versus Cure a c curious and creative mind. A competitive mind.

54:03 Is what I had and it's it's where I was of There's always something finite when you're competitive. You know, it's going to finish. There's going to be an outcome. And then what? But when you're operating from a curious and creative mind. There's no end.

54:18 you can just continue to create, you continue to build. And I want I want to be in that place in my life now of What how big can I think? I saw this Jeff Bezos interview the other day, and he just said one of the biggest curses of an entrepreneur is not thinking big enough. Yeah. You know, and I think Don't think big.

54:36 You know, you only get one w right around this thing. Think big, have fun, love your friends, love your family. Dance, laugh. Cry. You know

54:48 Do all the things. And Get to know yourself more and more every single day. Just before that time we have this whole Taylor Swift incident. What happened?

54:58 Is this the moment you're talking about where you received bad press? Oh bad press yeah, yeah. That was the when I bought Big Machine I thought I was going to work with all the artists on big machine. I thought it was gonna be like an exciting thing.

55:15 I knew The Taylor. She and I had only met three times, I think in my life, three or four times. And one of the time it was years earlier. It was really a great engagement. She invited me to a private party and we ho we we respected each other. We had a great engagement.

55:30 In between that time, since I'd seen her last, I started managing Kanye West. I managed Justin Bieber. I knew she didn't get along with them. I had a feeling This is where my arrogance came in. I had a feeling she probably didn't like me because I managed them, but I thought that once this announcement happened, she would talk to me. See who I am and we would work together.

55:50 And the announcement came out and I'm calling Scott Borshetta and saying, Hey, send me her number. I'm I just talked to Thomas Rhett and he's excited and I just talked to, you know, uh this p you know, this person and they're excited and I'm calling, you know Florida, Georgia Line next, and Oh because And then this Tumblr comes out and it says all this stuff, and I was just like shocked. Um

56:11 And It's it's been five, six years. I don't need to go back into it. But what I can tell you is Everything in life is a gift. Having that experience

56:24 allows me to have empathy for the people I worked with, who I would always say, Yeah, I understand, but I never knew what it was like to be on the global stage like that. I never knew what criticism like that felt like. And like I told you, the biggest gift that I got from that. was understanding that all the praise I had received up until that moment Was not deserved.

56:44 And all the hate I got after that moment. Cause none of these people knew me. Yeah. She didn't know me. This person didn't know me. This person who met me three times. They didn't know me.

56:57 I could show respect for all of them'cause I don't know them. So I can love'em where they're at. But the gift of Pain. Was

57:09 Awareness. And The other part was going through very something very personal shortly after was going through the divorce, my marriage. and all these different things and it just felt like one after another. But I look back at those didn't things didn't happen, I I really think they're all gifts because when when something's fair

57:27 You don't respect it. When something happens to you that you feel is fair. You're just like, Oh, I I I deserve that. You move on. You feel justified. Because you saw it coming. When something happens to you that feels deeply unfair

57:41 And you can't fix it. Then you really gotta look At everything. And realize the role you played in this, or maybe this, or that, or who do you want to be, or how to

57:53 So I'm grateful. But how does one contend with an unfair world? And I use the word unfair as well because, you know, we've got investigative re researchers here who looked through everything relating to that particular deal. And then we also looked at what's written on the internet. And there's this great disparity between what actually happened and what people say happened. Yeah. And there's actually I think there's a documentary out there which goes into it in great detail, which Andrew Schultz was talking talking about on a podcast which I saw. So I looked at that documentary as well. I mean, look, I'm grateful for a couple of things. One, my kids were really young when it happened, so they didn't feel it as much.

58:27 Yeah. It was very hard at the time. It was hard on the marriage. It was hard on our family. You can I also don't know what was being said on the other side. You know,'cause I never got to have the conversation. You know, so I think when people aren't communicating and refusing to communicate

58:42 a lot of things can get misconstrued and you c you know, I don't wanna hold any hatred or like I We everyone moves on, you know? So yes. I appreciate you saying that. I appreciate you actually doing the research. But for me I choose to see it as a gift.

59:00 I choose to see it as being able to have a perspective that very few people in the world have. of knowing what that's like. of feeling that on a global level. Pain.

59:12 Yeah. And also just What does that mean in in reality? It just felt unfair. It felt like And but so much, but of course, of course it happened to me. Right.

59:23 Of course, because here I was Thinking my value was from all this praise. Mm-hmm. You know, and I'd and everything was me making sure that I was living up to it. And then this happens and it's unfair and I can't control it. And of course the universe was like screaming at me, like God's screaming at me, like, hey, wake up.

59:40 You're not in control. You can't navigate all of this. You don't get to decide what your legacy is and you You just get to decide who you are on a daily basis and who you choose to see in yourself. and how you treat the people that love you and the people you can actually interact with.

59:57 Surrender. But surrender and participate. Yeah, that's the big thing for me. It's more than just surrender. It's surrender and participate and just enjoy the ride. That's why I got the tattoo.

1:00:09 You know, it was I can't worry about everyone's niece being mad at me. You know, like

1:00:21 You know, it it's uh what I gotta do is is show up for my niece. You know, and I gotta show it for my friends and my family and I wish everyone involved across the board, whether I know them or not. Nothing but good wishes. When I say specifically that pain, people don't

1:00:37 Think about how many people on earth have experienced such a thing. And if you if I could be a fly on the wall. That is actually just has C C T V for eyes. And I was watching you at that moment in time. Just for seven days I got to watch Scooter. What would I have seen?

1:00:54 Like I said, at that point I hadn't really done the work. Okay. So resistance. Resistance. Trying to navigate it, trying to understand it. Trying to

1:01:03 Um, figure out how to fix it. And then I couldn't But then I did financially. Like I couldn't fix the relationship that I didn't have. But then I was able to figure out, okay, you know what?

1:01:17 We will sell it. You know In a in a world of streaming Re records will only help the old catalog as much as they help the new catalog. Both will get a bump. I presented that, I showed, you know, how everyone can be a winner here.

1:01:31 And I was able to sell the catalogue. And I don't wanna go into too much detail, but I but I offered it It's that now come out very factually that I did offer it. There's

1:01:40 evidence of that multiple times in that process. They said no, I sold it to someone else and I washed my hands of it and moved on. And I actually sometimes look back at that and I go, The universe was trying to teach me something. And I navigated out of it. I found a way out.

1:01:58 So then the universe went, Oh man, we tried to. Try to give you a warning sign. We try to like You're you're sailing by in the Titanic and we're waving like iceberg and then the universe said, Okay You really didn't pay attention and you still aren't doing the work? Marriage.

1:02:15 'Cause that one got me. That one got me to pay attention. Losing my kids fifty percent of the time? That one. Changed everything.

1:02:24 And The world. That still couldn't move me. I was still able to figure out The chessboard.

1:02:34 But my kids And my marriage? That one rocked me. And woke me up. What's really crazy is when I told you I did this Tauffman process.

1:02:47 I won't tell you the process'cause you're not supposed to, but I can tell you at the end of the week And you could give it context for anyone that doesn't know the The Hoffman process is one week, no phone, no email. Um intense work on your early childhood to understand why you are the way you are. And give you tools to go out in the world.

1:03:04 And understand yourself. The reason I went. October of twenty twenty, my marriage was falling apart. The whole world thought I was crushing it. Ariana's crushing at this jun Justin's cry all these people like we're on fire.

1:03:19 And I had a suicidal thought for twenty minutes. Where I was like, if my marriage It's gonna fart. I'm not gonna be with my kids all the time. I can't control this.

1:03:30 I'm not gonna be this perfect image that I've presented to the world. And if I can't be this perfect image, I don't want to be here. And it went to a very dark place. And after twenty minutes I said, What the hell was that? That's not me. I would never leave my kids. I don't like leave anybody. Like what was that? And the next morning

1:03:47 I was on the set of uh a video shoot. And a friend of mine called. And he said You know what's going on with you? And I told him.

1:03:56 I told him about that night before. He called me back with another friend and they said, You need to go to Hoffman. We did it. It changed our life. They told me that they could get me in in two weeks because there was a cancellation. October twenty fourth, and that was the release of Ariana Grande's Dangerous Woman album. It was the busiest week of the year for me. It works. And I started laughing.

1:04:15 In the parking lot of this video shoot. And she goes, Do you want us to pick another week? I said, No. I said I've spent my whole life Pursuing these things. Doing this, choosing this, choosing scooter.

1:04:26 Choosing that life, choosing the clients. And I'm The top of my game. Yet I wanted to kill myself last night. Something's gotta change.

1:04:36 And I Chose to go to that place instead. And the hard stuff actually came after I got out of Hoffman. Yeah, I end up. going through a divorce. I ended up going through all this different stuff.

1:04:48 But I never was depressed again. And The most interesting thing that happened on the other side of it is Six years ago. I was

1:04:57 biggest manager and the perfect marriage and you know, everything I touched turned to gold. And there was no negative press about me ever. Six years later I'm divorced. I don't manage anymore. I've had negative press. And I couldn't be happier.

1:05:13 It doesn't mean it doesn't ebb and flow. But I get to be the dad I've always wanted to be and the friend I've always wanted to be. And it doesn't mean that things aren't gonna go you know, be hard and I'm gonna say suffer more things and go through them.

1:05:26 But I'm in a place that I understand A morfati. It's like everything's a gift. And I'm being super long winded. But that's the story.

1:05:35 That phone call. The day after that to your friends. Yeah. Did you tell him the truth on the phone? The full truth. Yeah. I did. And what was that full truth?

1:05:45 That I had The night before. Thought about it. You know, just shutting it all off. It wasn't even an idea that I wanted to die. I just wanted the noise in my head to go away. I wanted the failure, the disappointment, the fear.

1:05:58 I was going to fail in my mind. I couldn't control it. I'd always been able to navigate out of failure. And head towards success. A pit stop. But I had left.

1:06:09 What I found at Hoffman I told you is my name, the inner child at the Scott. I had built this mask. So big. I wanted to feel like me again. And I didn't realise how far away I'd gotten from that. Building up this armor, building up the mask.

1:06:23 You know I wanna tell you something funny. I usually don't say names in these things, but I wanna give him credit because I think it's hilarious. Michael Rapino is the CEO of Live Nation. He's an amazing guy. I think he's one of the most impressive people in the entire entertain entertainment industry because

1:06:39 He wields so much power. But he also empowers other people so well. And After The divorce after

1:06:49 you know, the big machine and and stuff that happened with that. All these different things. And you know what Michael told me? 'Cause I like you a lot more now'cause you seem human. You know, and he told before he's like nobody goes on like it's like this. He's like you know I just didn't he goes he goes, I didn't think you were real, I thought you were full of shit.

1:07:07 And He was right. I mean it I didn't know myself because I had no reason to do so. And it wasn't until I had some h real hardships and real pain and real scares and real rock bottom moments That I started looking at myself. And started

1:07:22 Figure out who I was. And then Everyone got to know me. I'm my best friends since I was eleven years old. They're the people I hang out with the most. Um Two of them live out here, Mike and Vuk.

1:07:34 And I hang out with them all the time. And people who know me, they know these guys because they've been my friends since we were twelve years old, eleven years old. And Mike and Vuk told me At forty years old when I was doing this work. We've known you since you were eleven.

1:07:50 And this is the most we've ever known you. And I'm not surprised or insulted because they say you haven't changed. But we didn't know you. Because I was always Even to them presenting

1:08:04 what I thought they needed me to be. Perfect. And then I broke. And then I said, this happened and this happened. When I was a kid, this was going on and this was And they were like,

1:08:15 We love you. And I really became one of the boys for the first time in my life. I became one of the boys. Because the boys became vulnerable. I thought it was the opposite my whole life. I thought you had to be cool, you had to be tough to be one of the boys.

1:08:29 And it was funny because they didn't All the achievements. Not only did they not give a shit about, I probably lost touch with them. More so. And when everything fell apart, they were the ones that were there, the ones who knew Scott, the ones who didn't care about any of it.

1:08:45 And I've never really even said that out loud to this extent until right now. And I'm actually glad I get to say on here both their names. Because they Yeah. Yeah.

1:09:01 They picked me up. And a in a really, really tough time. And time where I couldn't even look at my own brothers'cause I was too ashamed. And um

1:09:12 And I never felt like one of the guys. Like I felt like I had those friends, but I just couldn't let them all the way in because I felt, well, maybe I'm smarter, maybe I'm this, maybe I need to be perfect. And it wasn't till I really hit rock bottom that I realized that they always had my back and I'd made all these st stupid ideas in my head and They were They were there.

1:09:36 And They weren't there for scooter. Yeah, they were there for Scott. I see you getting a little emotional too. Because you probably have the same type of friends. So I'll

1:09:46 I did it so you can do it too. W what are their names? I Michael Uh Tom. Anthony.

1:09:55 And all of the. But they are they're they're the constant. They're They're through everything. The up, the down The up the down, the up the down again. And they don't give a crap about any of this.

1:10:06 If your friends are like mine. They're brutal about this stuff. My friends rip me. Like If people saw the text messages between us They would think we hate each other. Um but we love each other deeply. And and the best part about the messages is

1:10:23 The random Hey guys, I love you. You know, I it happens all the time. I'll get a phone call, I'll pick up, I'll just see Paul. Hey brother, I love you. Just want to call and tell you. I'm really grateful. Like I have so many different

1:10:35 People I can name. And what was really interesting is Before all this happened. I don't know if you can relate to this, but I spent so much time.

1:10:47 Trying to impress people who didn't want To love me. Instead of realizing How many people already did. I was just thinking what a great shame it is that

1:11:01 the amount of units of energy we exert on, as you said, like the external, like the audience. Whereas When you ask me who would be there for me irrespective of what was going on in my life. I can name them. And then I ask myself, how much energy and effort am I putting into these relationships? And I'm embarrassed about how much energy and effort I'm putting into these relationships. I'm like embarrassed by it.

1:11:20 I wouldn't care, but they'll then they'll still be there. Yeah, they do care. Yeah. Yeah, and and that's the best part'cause when you do start putting energy, it becomes even more fun. It's really it's really um. It's really difficult for me to understand and this is my naivety. The part that's difficult for me to understand is You family meant so much to you. Didn't you don't you have a tattoo that says family? First one. You got a tattoo at eighteen about your future family. Correct.

1:11:50 So family has been this like Dream and ambition of yours. Mm-hmm. So it's surprising to me as someone who is naive in this context. But some it had to be threatened for you to care. Enough to No, I cared. I just uh

1:12:05 Childhood trauma's a hell of a thing, man. It's um And we all have it. That was the thing. The reason I didn't think I had it is because I had friends who, you know, had parents who were alcoholics. I had friends who had parents who this. So I always thought You know, both my parents are here. They love me like The stuff I dealt with, that's not real.

1:12:24 You know, I come from an immigrant family. Like we can deal with this. Like we're strong. You know, that's not real. And what I realized is Everyone has trauma. That's the human experience.

1:12:35 And the faster we value our own trauma. And stop trying to downplay it because we don't think it equals someone else's. the more we can work on ourselves. 'Cause all you get to do is work on yourself. You don't get to work on the other person. Like you can really only work on yourself.

1:12:50 You can help the other person, but the work, that's only here. And I think that I saw My life is perfect. So why change anything?

1:13:03 And that's why you're smiling. So stop calling me. Because you see your wife as perfect and she's screaming at you screaming at you and trying to And you can't see it. She is in her own way. expressing to me in in yeah, in her own way that there is

1:13:22 An issue. And I I'm gonna be completely honest, because this is why I started this podcast was the diary of a CEO. So this is what would be written in my diary. The alarm is getting louder. And I'm still in a a state where I think I've got a l a lot of time.

1:13:38 Before the alarm is so loud that I can't fix it. I see you, buddy. Trust me. I see and here's the funny thing. I don't want to go into detail, so I have a lot of respect. We're family forever. It goes both ways. It's not like there was one thing happening it Both people have to play a role in where we got to.

1:13:56 You know, things happen on You know, both ways. However Chris Rock says something really special. He goes.

1:14:04 Relationships are actually quite easy. You know, you ever try to pick up a couch with two people, no problem. Pick up a couch by yourself. And that was the thing. We we both went to pick up the couch at different times. And

1:14:18 We were made to be amazing co-parents. We were made to come into each other's lives to help each other be better in different ways through the heartbreak of our relationship ending. And we were We were brought together to make three incredible souls. And now Whoever gets me next is in for a treat.

1:14:36 Because I'm a better version than I was before. And in hindsight, what are those warning signs for someone like me who might be The choices that you make that you justify. Oh, I gotta do this because, you know. If I don't do this one.

1:14:53 It could all fall apart. No it isn't. You know, I if I don't If I Stop everything I'm doing and choose this, it could all fall apart. Or

1:15:02 Yeah, okay, you're saying this to me, but you don't really mean it because you don't understand what I'm going through because I'm in this grind, I'm in this hunt that you no one can understand because only I can achieve this. You're smiling'cause you literally Can I ask you some questions? Who? How long you guys been together? Uh six years now. And why are you smiling so big?'Cause y how many times have you made those choices? I know I just justified bullshit and there's always gonna I know logically there's always gonna be something else.

1:15:33 There's always there's never gonna be a perfect time. So I know logically that I have to pick imperfect moments. And do you guys want kids? Yes. Do you use that as an excuse, well the kids aren't here yet, so I need to grind now? I've I've I've certainly thought it as a way to justify to myself, to self rationalise. I don't think I've ever said that to her, but

1:15:56 I have said to her I've said internally. Yeah, I've said it to myself internally. I've said to myself like this season of life up until I'm thirty five. I'm gonna go for it and then good shot. And then you know she's looking at you thinking. I wanna be able to trust you to have children. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

1:16:11 Listen. Yeah. A long time ago someone really smart ran this little exercise with me. And I wish I would have paid better attention to it.

1:16:22 Other than just thinking it was a cool thing to like use in the office. He said If I told you Someone you loved was sick. And you had a billion dollars, how much of it would you spend to save them?

1:16:36 A billion dollars, yeah. Correct. And he says If your loved one. Is she healthy? Does she love you?

1:16:44 Is she here with you right now? Everything you're working to achieve. With that perspective you already have it. Yeah. And they said it to me and it sounds great. I'm seeing it on your face. You're a smart guy. It's logical. You're like, Yeah, I get it. And then you're gonna go repeat the same stuff. Because that's what we do.

1:17:01 And what I realized when I went and did this work was It's not gonna change between you and her or me and my ex. You know, that wasn't what it was about. It was actually something deeper, deeper underlying that had nothing to do with the current relationship.

1:17:16 It had to do with that lie. That I'm not enough, that this person actually doesn't. really love me unless I do this. Were you happy? Before the m marriage fell apart.

1:17:27 I think so, but I also didn't know who I was. I think I was happy because everyone in the world told me I was doing great. And I thought that that was enough. And I I feel like looking back now, I feel like I was asleep at the wheel. I feel like I didn't know myself at the time.

1:17:44 And But I had so much success at such a young age, so everyone was telling me I was doing great. So I just chose to believe them. And it wasn't until I You know, the foundation broke and there was nothing underneath it that I was like, oh shit, I'm actually not happy.

1:17:57 And I never knew. And it's like I wouldn't go back. To that. Before all the crap. In a million years, I wanna stay here.

1:18:06 'Cause now I'm like I'm a I'm awake. What is the um the practical advice you would give me? You can identify where I'm at in your own story. So what is the practical advice you'd give me now? to avoid myself getting to a situation where one day I have regret Because I didn't listen to the alarm.

1:18:24 Couple things. Number one, uh turn the cameras off and go do some self work. Stop being nudged. Just go do it. Stop being With all due respect to Pussy. Thank you. I appreciate it.

1:18:35 Yeah. Yeah. I mean it it's just There's no good time in the future. There's no when I get to thirty five, when I get to thirty six, when I get to forty, there's when I achieve this. Go do it. one to two weeks out of the year will not kill you. It will only make you stronger. Because what you're dealing with with what you're telling me has nothing to do with the two of you. It has more to do with your stuff, and she has to go do her stuff. She you have to see if she

1:18:59 Wants to go do the same thing. And and work on herself in the same way. 'Cause it's a constant thing. The second thing is Go on vacations together. And when the kids come go on vacation that's something I think we we forgot to do.

1:19:12 We did the vacations with the kids, we did the vacations with friends, but we didn't do vacations together because we were so we had three kids in five years. And I think um You know, that's something I think about. But then Also just trust that like if it's supposed to be, it's supposed to be. My journey was supposed to be exactly the way it was.

1:19:29 Even when I found out things and she found out like About ourselves. It was exactly when we were supposed to find out. So I just I'm a firm believer You know, you're here to learn exactly what you're supposed to learn. Have you read Many Lives, Many Masters? No.

1:19:45 By Brian Weiss. Mm. Easy quick read on a weekend, you'll enjoy the hell out of it. Um, Brian Weiss was the head of psychology at University of Miami. And he was recommended a nurse from the hospital. Would he see her. And he saw her and she had deep trauma and couldn't figure it out. So he goes, We're gonna do hypnotic regression.

1:20:04 She does hypnotic regression. She goes into something from like age zero to six that she couldn't remember. very traumatizing. He's like Oh, this will make a difference. She comes back the next week It's even worse. That makes no sense to him. He does hypnotic regression again and she goes into a past life. He calls bullshit. He does another hypnotic regression, she goes into another past life, and he realizes her educational background could not know the things that she's saying that he's looking up.

1:20:27 So What happens is he just writes a book about this patient and how she changed his entire practice. And what was really interesting about it is It made me look at death differently and life differently. We're here to learn. And then if we don't figure it out, we leave and we come back again. And if we learn that one, we come back and it's transitions and but it's never it's not ending.

1:20:50 It's all about coming here to learn. But I feel like I have so much to learn and at least I know that and I'm such a mess and I'm figuring it out every single day that if Brian Weiss's book is right, I'm not going anywhere for a while. But it's really amazing way to look. And what was interesting is when I told my mom had read it, when I told my dad he actually goes, Well, you know, we're Jews, we don't believe in reincarnation and When I started studying Kabbalah

1:21:15 I realized But Actually Kabbalah teaches reincarnation almost the exact same way this woman was describing it, which means Judeo Christians actually believe in reincarnation, but many of us don't know it. Um, and it was just a really interesting way of looking at life.

1:21:31 Do you believe in reincarnation? I do. Yeah. Yeah, I do, especially if reading this book and then studying Kabbalah and I started studying Kabbalah about a year ago. Um I like

1:21:41 Some of the principles I've learned from Kabbalah about this idea of being a custodian. That Nothing is actually ours. But we're custodians.

1:21:53 You know, that um God Hashem is what they say in Kabbalah. But um this idea that We're supposed to give ten percent to charity, but no more than twenty. You know, because The belief is if God is giving you this, he's asking you to hold on to it because he has a purpose for you. But if he chooses to take it away.

1:22:10 You should be just as joyful,'cause it was never yours in the first place. You are a custodian. And I think that's a really great way of looking at materials, looking at life. And understanding, like I said, participating. And I'm getting to play in this game. But you have your moments, right?

1:22:25 Yeah. Still today, because you're someone that's done so much work. So it's it's interesting speaking to you because You also mentioned seek. advice on an everything in my life, but

1:22:36 You still have work left to do, you said the I still have things left to learn. Well I think I have a lot of things left to learn. I find myself Sometimes needing to defend myself, sometimes Not defending myself when I should.

1:22:49 I feel like sometimes I feel misunderstood or not loved and I and I I have I you know have that moment and then Even on the other side, there's times where you feel like oh you're doing all this work and people see you as someone who's done the work. And then You don't want to be seen as someone who's failing.

1:23:04 at that work. And the truth is That's all part of the process. It's like a constant surrender to your Your human experience. The work for me is Life is gonna throw the things you need at you. So like I said

1:23:18 Tomorrow something could happen that you know, I'm being ridiculed again and I'm having to learn again, you know, or a praise could come and I'm having to learn how to handle that. Like I don't know what tomorrow is gonna bring. It's always a new experiment. But it's almost as if like when you're doing this work, people call it. It's as you're swimming in the waves. And now you have the skills to get through the wave.

1:23:38 The wave's still come. But you're just going through them differently. Do you wish they wouldn't come? Hell no, that's life. You know, I

1:23:46 I asked. You said I had a company Ithaca. Do you know where it comes from? No.

1:23:54 So Some people think they're like, Oh, Ithaca New York No. It comes from a poem by Kafafi. Um I asked David Geffen. Uh years ago.

1:24:05 With his extraordinary life and career. When did he feel Like it was like Enough. I was thirty years old when I met him and I asked him that question the first meal we ever had.

1:24:17 And he looked at me and he said That's not how life works. It goes up and down this side and he goes, I want you to read a poem. And he gives me Ithaca by Kafafi. And

1:24:29 I named my holding company. I had S B projects, but then when I did the holing company and started doing other things too. I named it after this poem'cause I was so moved by it. And the concept of the poem of Ithaca is You're on the way to the island of Ithaca and the Greek islands.

1:24:42 And along the way, you're gonna see so many different things. And you're gonna meet scholars and you're gonna, you know, learn wisdom and all these different things. And when you find Ithaca, finally, if you find her poor, she did not fool you. 'Cause it was never about. The destination. Always about the journey.

1:24:59 And I think right now If they're if I get to this end game with you Like that's no fun. Then it's over. So like keep the waves coming. I made the biggest investment I've ever made in a company because of my girlfriend. I came home one night and my lovely girlfriend was up at one a.m. in the morning pulling her hair out as she tried to piece together her own online store for her business. And in that moment, I remembered an email I'd had from a guy called John.

1:25:27 The founder of Stan Store. Our new sponsor and a company I've invested heavily in. And Stan still helps creators to sell digital products, courses, coaching, and memberships all through a simple customizable link in bio system. And it handles everything: payments, bookings, emails, community engagement, and even links with Shopify. And I believe in it so much. Then I'm going to launch A stanza. Challenge.

1:25:51 And as part of this challenge, I'm gonna give away one hundred thousand dollars to one of you. If you want to take part in this challenge, if you want to monetize the knowledge that you have, visit Steven Bartlett. Dot stan.store to sign up. And you'll also get an extended thirty-day free trial of Stan Store if you use that link. Your next move. Could quite frankly change everything. I told you

1:26:13 Daniel Eck that I was interviewing you. couple of uh months ago. And he sat me down in his LA Office and I was like, I've got to tell you b a story about that. Scooter Bron guy. I've got to tell something. He said that when he made the Forbes under thirty list.

1:26:28 when he was a young man in I think Stockholm, Sweden, he said he randomly got a phone call out of the blue from you. And you had decided To call everybody on the th Forbes thirty and the thirty. Oh the billboard. And you decided to call all every single person on the list just to introduce yourself.

1:26:46 Yeah. I when I heard that I thought fucking wow. You don't want to know why? Why? Because every single time I met someone very accomplished.

1:26:57 And successful. And they wanted to help me. They'd say, Well, who are you trying to reach? And they'd say, Oh my gosh, I've known them for twenty years, thirty years. And they would pick up the phone call and their power was in relationship

1:27:11 That was expansive. And and long and they knew each other from the beginning. Not that they had met. Some powerful club at the end.

1:27:20 Mm-hmm. And what I realized was The real powers in community. And I wanted to know my peers.

1:27:29 I wanted to grow with them. That we didn't need to go and find someone who already had it, we needed to sport each other. How old were you when you did that? Twenty seven. So you were twenty seven and you called everybody on that list? Yeah. Such a cool thing to do.

1:27:44 So many people are now gonna go do that. But it's such a cool thing to do. By way. I am an early investor in Spotify because of that phone call. He was just and I'm sure he told you this, he was just a company in Sweden. He didn't tell me this point. Oh yeah, he was just when I called him, he was they you know, they were talking about this new thing Spotify, but it was in Sweden. And

1:28:06 We met. And I tried to get in right away after we met because I was like, What is this? and And he didn't let me in at first. And then you know, I went and met Shaq, you know, Shaq, yeah, good friend of mine. I met Shaq in London. We walked around and then

1:28:18 DA Wallach was like advising them and Um I ended up getting to be a significant, you know, investor at that point in my life in this, you know new young company Spotify, and I have not sold a share in probably eighteen years. You haven't sold a ship.

1:28:34 No, I'm a firm believer in that company and I'm a firm believer in Daniel. And I and I think Listen, I hear all the time where people are like, Oh, look, you know This is so unfair. Daniel Eck, with his bravery and his foresight.

1:28:49 Save the music industry. He gave value to our industry again. He found a way to make us go from going in one direction to The most successful we've ever been.

1:29:01 And I don't think people realize that and give him enough credit for what he did. People don't uh understand the machine. They just think, Well record sales went away and now we've got this streaming fee and it's lower. So what is the context we're missing there? What did he what did that company do?

1:29:16 It gave value to our business. It gave You know uh multiples on publishing and masters that we had never seen before because Now Everyone's music can be heard and heard for a long time.

1:29:28 You know, at the time Daniel came along, all I would hear going in the music business is, Man, you missed the eighties and nineties, sorry, kid. You know, this business is going down. You know, and Daniel was streaming Made it so that You know these these major labels and these independent companies and

1:29:45 You know, these artists are able to do things they've never been able to do before. One on bringing that amount of revenue to our business, but two. Also Bringing our global community together. And uh and that was Daniel's foresight and his vision.

1:30:00 And his uh I mean He didn't have any relationships. You didn't know the major labels. Crazy, isn't it? He saved the music industry.

1:30:10 And I think Now that you know. He's the biggest thing in the music industry. It's easy to point at him as like the big bad And yes, he's always trying to innovate and change, but he has brought more money back into our industry than we ever thought would be there. And um

1:30:25 And I'm grateful to him. And I think he He saved a lot of careers. I also would like to And a couple of words to that to just to say what an unbelievably

1:30:35 humble, smart. kind human being he is. Mm-hmm. It's an impossible story for it for to do what he did out of Stockholm as well, not Silicon Valley. And for it to be the dominant platform and still to be The best platform. Even as a podcast, it's my favorite platform by far. And they've J just decided.

1:30:51 in the last two to three months, which is actually while I was over at Spotify's office to meet him. That they're gonna start paying podcasters revenue that we've never been paid before? They're gonna cut us in on the Spotify membership fee? Which means that again, it's gonna fuel this whole industry. Apple aren't paying us anything. But Spotify have decided to pay podcasters who upload on video.

1:31:09 Which is gonna mean that people can quit their jobs and And Dani Daniel's very innovative guy and I remember him as the kid I called. On that list. And who when he came to the United States

1:31:22 A couple weeks later played me in ping pong eight times. You know, and that's how we became friends. And um He's incredibly humble, incredibly smart, incredibly hardworking. And

1:31:35 He has changed a lot of people's lives. What's next for you, Scooter? Shall I call you Scott or Scooter? Either one. I'm proud of both now. Okay. I'm gonna call you Scott. Okay. What What is next?

1:31:47 In If we sit here in ten years' time, do you have any idea? What that chapter look like. Or do you have any idea what would have had to have happened for you to consider it a success? The only thing I wanna make sure is that

1:32:01 You know, I stay I want to be the father to my children. Right that I that I wanna be that I continue that that's the thing. Like that's the one consistent thing. I wanna make sure that I put them first, that they are my priority. 'Cause I get them until they're eighteen and then You know, they're gonna be like, Dow're out. Um and I'm still gonna obviously look forward to the next chapter, but

1:32:19 Um I got ten years of that. I think Something I'm excited about in the next chapter is like what does love look like? What does relationship look like?

1:32:27 Um And then I'm excited to be a rookie again. and try new things and get into industries. Cause I I said to you before we started taping You know, you asked me about AI. And I said, I feel like we're in the beginning of an industrial revolution and a cold war at the same time.

1:32:44 But there's just so much opportunity'cause things are shifting and things are moving and we're becoming a more productive society. Because Like you, I've gotten to see some of the things that are coming. on the technology side and it's mind blowing. What's coming?

1:32:58 And it's mind blowing what's already happening. that people a lot of people don't even realize and the innovation is going to get faster and faster and faster. And I think the one thing that will never go away is humans want for taste.

1:33:13 For human error, for experiences. If anything during Covid We saw national parks explode. people had time for experiences. I think AI is gonna make us more productive. We're gonna have more time for experiences. And I'm excited for that. And I'm excited for what that world looks like. And I think there will always be growing pains when there's change.

1:33:32 But on the other side. Societies have always been measured by productivity, not by wealth. How productive is that society? We're about to be the most productive society we've ever been. It's quite it is quite scary, but it's also extremely exciting. And I think

1:33:45 I think both responses are quite natural. I think excitement's often present where fear is. And um I the choice that I'm personally just making is to lean in. And to mess around and to learn.

1:33:56 When we spoke earlier, you were telling me that you'll stay up all night long, like, learning how to code with AI. And you're trying to understand all the AI tools that are in front of us, so you can kind of be first'cause you feel like you know, you weren't at the right place in the dot com boom and you wanna make sure that you're in there. Can I Ask you

1:34:15 what you consider success? Is it You don't want to miss out. Like what what is the success? Why do you feel like you want to not miss out? What do you want to be first to? If you if you achieve something on the other side because you actually master AI and you are one of the first What are you hoping happens?

1:34:31 So I think I'm trying I'm running from a fear, and the fear is I'm thirty two now. And I've I've been

1:34:41 playing at the frontier my whole life. So like my first business was in social media. I rode that wave into sure, it changed my life. I was relevant, it made me feel great. I built on on that frontier as the wave came into sure. Then the blockchain came around, started a company called Third Web, valued$160 million. Amazing. I was on the frontier. Then this AI thing comes along and it feels like The wave is coming in and I'm I've got a surfboard and I've got to decide whether I wanna take this wave or not. And if I I feel like if I miss the wave, If I'm not involved, if I'm not building there, then

1:35:11 It's quite existential, it's like Then I don't know what can happen and I don't like that. I don't like the unknown. And it goes back to many things we talked about, but uh

1:35:23 Did you ever swim in the ocean? Yes. I'm not the the best swimmer in the world. I'm saying, but you'll go in the ocean? Yeah. Not just on the beach, will you go out in the ocean and get in the water? If I have my floating vest on'cause I can't I can't swim.

1:35:36 Which is interesting though. You'll get in though. Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent. I have a a top I wear to go into the No I understand that, but I I find that interesting only because the ocean is a place where you have absolutely no control. Uh huh. You know, it's

1:35:49 The ocean can do what we want. You don't know what's in there. You know, a lot of people like I see when they want control, I realized there were years that I kinda just didn't swim in the ocean. I swim on the beach. But I didn't really want to go into the ocean because I didn't have control out there. You know, I didn't know what was in there. I didn't know what could get me in it. Like I couldn't see it coming. I couldn't control the outcome.

1:36:08 And you talk a lot about this like the need for control that makes you feel uncomfortable. But you are b also a very big risk taker. I mean you're thirty two years old. You've achieved all this. You're pushing yourself to find out more. You're defying all the odds. You got the kid from home who's still talking crap because, you know, look everything you're doing.

1:36:28 And and I I guess I'm I'm intrigued because One, you don't give yourself the credit of how much you go into the unknown. It's almost like you do it out of Fear necessity. But I'm really pushing you on like

1:36:41 What does success look like for you? Because you're on the surfboard and you keep surfing. I'm trying to figure out like where where is what is success to you? Is it You're you're ninety years old. And you're looking back at your life. What

1:36:55 or the things that you could not live without. You'd be disappointed if they weren't there. I imagine it's gonna be my kids. I imagine it's gonna be my relationship with my partner. I think that's the Going back to

1:37:08 This sounds like a crazy thing to say, but if there was a butt on the table then I had to press it to kill myself or my opponent I'd press it to kill myself. And that was a really clarifying thought for me because I was like, I'd literally take my I'd give my life to save this person, this other human being. My nieces, my brother. Um My fam my family.

1:37:29 I'm confused'cause you haven't named All the achievements. AI. You haven't named, you know, all the things that you think you need to do. You know the um

1:37:39 If I can. Yeah. Part of what I think makes the journey exciting is being like slightly terrified and having something that consumes you and that challenges you and that scares you a little bit and and building and experimenting and leaning in. Like when I was a kid in my bedroom, I'd turn my bunk bed into a business. It'd be a salon one week and then the next week I'd be

1:38:00 dismantling my brother's radio and s trying to sell the parts and Like so I've always been extremely curious, extremely experimental. I've always tried to build things. So I think that's my fun. But I also I w these days, the more I've done this podcast, the more I've learned to like question myself. Question what I'm saying.

1:38:18 Listen, I think You're an incredibly intriguing guy. That's why I wanted to meet you. Mm-hmm. And I love how much you push yourself and you question things. But I find it very interesting that when I asked you about your nineties and when you look back

1:38:31 you name things that are very attainable to you'cause you found someone that loves you and you love them. Yeah. And then when we're talking throughout this entire conversation. It seems that when you actually open about your personal life You spend a lot of your time avoiding

1:38:49 That thing. And focusing on all these others that make you feel worthy to experience that thing. Mm-hmm. And I I guess like what I'm just trying to say to you for as smart a guy as you are.

1:39:02 This is coming from someone who literally suffered from the same thing. The thing that you want the most at ninety You got It's true. The building in your room and the building with AI.

1:39:16 should be just fun. Mm. It shouldn't be terrifying anymore. It should be fun because the terrifying thing is Turning 90 and not having the thing you really want. That's when I woke up.

1:39:30 And So what does that mean for me? And what what d for anyone that can resonate with that, what does that mean that they should do? I know you said like turn off the cameras and but can you do both? I don't know. I think everyone's journey's different.

1:39:43 I think everyone experiences things in a different way. Some people are able to like you talked about with addiction, some people are able to say, Just stop. And other people can't. And other people have to go through a different process to get there. So w I'm trying to understand the balance though. Like how do I know if I've got the balance right in that wrong? I hate that word because uh someone I really admired. said to me harmonize, you know, um Jeff Bezos was the one who said it. He was like you don't balance things, harmonize. Why why weigh things that you love against each other?

1:40:11 You love building in your room. You love learning things and building things. You love that. You love your partner and you want to build a family with her one day.

1:40:22 It's not about balance, it's about putting them together. Bring her into every aspect of it. Bring her into the fears that you have with this. Bring her into you know, that's what I d I you know, I didn't know that. You know, it's it's bring every aspect of your life together. And share and let them be with the up and downs and you do the up and downs and kind of go across the board. And then also, like I said, do the work to find out why you ask all these questions, but still

1:40:48 With all the nudging that's happened. Do the work to find out why you're so afraid to actually turn off the camera and just do it. So are you saying then to get out of like competition and get into that curiosity that you described. You said about these two states that you can invest in I think

1:41:03 Being competitive is always a beautiful thing if used in the right way. I love that. But I will say to you When you talk to me about where the AI staying up at night, where building your company came from, it was a kid. Building in his room. Mm-hmm. That kid wasn't competing with anyone.

1:41:21 He was having fun in his room. He was building. That's when you're at your best. It's when you're actually just building for the joy of building. And I think along the way, based on our fears, based on the I'm not enough, based on all these different things, we start to take that thing that brought us joy.

1:41:39 And we start to think, if I don't crush it. Now that people are watching me do it. I'm not good at it. And You're asking me for like this question is almost if it's like advice.

1:41:51 I'm trying to figure it out the same time you are. Yeah. You know, so I guess I'll pose it back to you. You've done research, you know a little bit about my life. What would you say to me? What should I be doing next? What do you think I should be nudged to do?

1:42:07 I think what you're What you've done today. is some of the most valuable work that you can do. And when I say today, I mean is as you've sat here and the vulnerability that you've expressed, the honesty, the

1:42:28 nuance to certain points. I think it's one of the most important things you can do because many of us don't get to climb up to the top of the mountaintop. And See what's up there. And you're choosing to go up there and then shout back down about your marriage. About business, about your mental health and everything in between, about mistakes you've made, injustices, all these kinds of things. Probably one of the most powerful things you can do because as you you've identified, there'll be a couple of kids, maybe me being one, who will

1:42:53 Not have to be burnt, not have to hit the rock bottom to learn the lesson. And there's actually very few people I do this for a living. There's very few people that have Both that experience and the ability to ar articulate it in a way that is resonant. In terms of this next season of your life I mean you're doing so much for Alec Yeah.

1:43:13 It was so nice actually hearing you on the phone to your kids yesterday when when they came over and it was like, Dad, I want a pencil or whatever he was saying. And you were like Steven, you said to me, I've got a you hung up the phone and you you addressed your kids, you call me back in ten seconds. And I thought there was something really special and telling that you were willing to end a phone call with someone. and put the phone away and immediately be present with your child to have a conversation with him, to have a conversation, then call me back straight away. Most people don't do that. So I thought okay, he's really this really means a lot to him in this season. Yeah, when When you just said to me What I did here today.

1:43:44 Yeah. I smiled'cause I was being really honest with myself and I really appreciated you saying that. But I also smiled'cause I was being honest with myself of how funny it is that when I leave here All I've been doing lately when I'm away from my kids. Is thinking of what do I build next.

1:44:04 So I can show my value. I'm going back to that old habit. Cause I'm excited to build something else, but when I'm being really deep honest with myself, really going deep. It comes from this place of Well if I can do it again. This time will be the one that

1:44:21 I'm happy about This time like It's that same old thing that comes every single time. And I still want to build something because I get joy out of that. But say while I'm giving you this advice, when you said that to me, I went, Oh man He's right.

1:44:35 This is the most valuable thing I could probably do. But the reason I don't do it 'Cause deep down. I feel not worthy of it. I feel like

1:44:45 Who am I to tell anybody anything? You know, all of us we feel like a fraud when we're giving any kind of advice. And that creeps up in me and I I get this very from being very vulnerable, it gets this place of

1:44:58 I don't even want to say, Oh, thank you for saying that. at first because I'm like, Well if someone's watching they'll be like this arrogant guy or the you you get all the voices coming back in your head. But the truth is I want to go and build something next. I wanna fall in love again.

1:45:18 I wanna be present for my children. And I wanna be someone who can give advice from a place of wisdom. And be proud that I give it. But also receive it because I've learned just as much talking to you. And what I will tell you is you are

1:45:33 Way ahead of the game. At thirty two. Compared to where I was. Thank you. And I had a lot of success at thirty two. But I wasn't asking these questions.

1:45:42 And I wasn't pushing myself the way you did. And I think it is an incredibly cool thing that this is what you get to do as a career. Mm.'Cause I think you get to help a lot of people. Um And

1:45:55 Don't ever lose sight of the fact that the kid who was building in his room is now building in a lot of other people's rooms and it's really impressive. Thank you. That means an awful lot coming from you. I've been extremely excited by this conversation and I've been telling in our team up because of the conversations we have on the phone. And

1:46:14 I knew that if those conversations Or any reflection of the conversation we'd have on my show, it would be really pivotal for me. And it has been. It's been the nicest punch in the face. People have probably wonder why. I say all this stuff in public, but

1:46:36 Um What an unbelievable opportunity it is to meet someone like you and get to get to learn from you. genuinely to get to learn from you. Like what an unbelievable crisp from this kid from Botswana to get to meet someone like you and learn from you. to the point that my life has a chance of being better than I've spoken to you. And then to get to share that with people who I know are struggling with the same shit, who are contending with the same battles. So That is why I I make the decision to have these conversations in the way that I do. And um

1:47:04 By the way, just want just'cause I struggle with giving myself credit, I wanna say this to you. The kid from Botswana is teaching me as well the kid from Cascap. You know, it's uh As much as like that's an incredible thing.

1:47:23 I wanted to come on here'cause I've listened to your podcast before and I've been one of those listeners. Who grew and learned from it. So thank you, honestly. And Continue to give yourself the credit you deserve and continue to ask the questions. I do wanna blow a little bit of smoke up your ass for something else that you've done because I don't think people

1:47:41 Have the all of this information, but when I looked at the breadth of philanthropic work that you've done Whether it's the support you gave to Manchester, which is the city that I consider my my home town, I r after the um Ariana attack. Oh, because you got a B on your own. U but all these other foundations, the list of s philanthropic work that you've done is so long.

1:48:04 That I that I would have to we'd have to do another podcast just to go through all of these things. And you don't talk about it publicly. I don't see you posting about it all the time. So for me that's always indicated that you're doing it for the right reasons, but it's incredible. So thank you for doing that as well. And you deserve credit that you never at you never get for doing all of these things. And this inspired me as well. Because sometimes I think as entrepreneurs we can fall into the trap of thinking we

1:48:27 We cut down the forest, then donate to the bees. Yeah, my mom is the reason. Um She as I started building in college, she said, Just promise me you know, you'll do Sadaka, which is charity within our our culture. To get back.

1:48:41 And I basically said every aspect of my business will have a give back component. And Shauna Nepp, who runs our family foundation, like Our job is to make the money, her job is to help me give it away. And um sometimes it's with money, sometimes it's with effort.

1:48:55 But I've met so many incredible heroes, unsung heroes, in all this work. um people who really dedicate full time their lives to this and I really always I always say, um my grandfather before he passed, he said, If your glass is filling with water And you're one of the lucky people in this world. That God continues to pour water into your glass.

1:49:14 Well, you better start pouring it into other people's glasses, otherwise it's just gonna spill and make a mess. Mm. And I never forgot that. Even when you sold Hybe. There was this

1:49:24 tremendous amount of money that you turned around and gave to all the employees. Which a lot of people don't know about and You also gave money to several of your artists and I'm br I from what I've researched, tens of millions were given to your artists as well, and you could have kept all that money to yourself. So when I hear that someone's gone around and given that much money to two hundred and sixty four of their employees and artists that have worked with them You kinda get a picture of who the guy is. We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing who they're gonna be leaving it for.

1:49:50 And the question is. That has been left for you. Is Now I'm nervous. Why do people always get nervous on our customers? The question left for you.

1:50:04 Is If you could do one thing. That fear of failure has kept you from doing What would it be? And why has it kept you from doing it?

1:50:14 I can do one thing. That's a really great question. Um Hm. You know, at first I was thinking it was be like, Oh, say sorry to somebody or this that, but I feel like I've gotten to do that with people in my life for the last couple of years for things that like I wanted to kinda ha talk about.

1:50:36 And some things you realize, like it's just not the season for that. You know, it takes two. And I felt myself It was almost the fear of saying this out loud. Um Right.

1:50:47 Write a book. Oh, thank God. Yeah, I I've always uh I think it's it's My brother wrote a book, a really great one called The Promise of a Pencil.

1:50:57 He was a New York Times bestseller and I was always like that's Adam's thing. And I've always wanted to write, but I always feel like my mind and you know the things I'm working on and myself, all these things they change like every week. And I've always felt like deep down like Oh yeah, you should write a book, but like You're really not gonna write a great book if you do.

1:51:14 And I think it's always held me back from actually just sitting down and doing it. I got goosebumps then because as in that silence. For some bizarre reason. I swear on my mother's I I was thinking, I hope he says he's gonna write a book. I swear to you. That's what went through my mind. I went I hope he says he's gonna write a book. That's why I went, Thank God.

1:51:32 Well, I didn't say I was gonna write it. I said fear's been holding me back. Maybe maybe you'll turn off the camera and go in your nudge and this will be the nudge for me. Well, we hope you do, scooter, because Um I've been so shocked and blown away by Yeah. Your wisdom and your ability to articulate things and the stage of life that you've in you've arrived at is for me

1:51:50 As an objective observer, just the perfect moment. I appreciate that. We'll keep doing the work together and this is the beginning of a great friendship and I'm really honored to be here and Really happy for all your success. Thank you.

1:52:03 The feeling is mutual. Thank you, brother. Thank you so much. Thank you. This has always blown my mind a little bit. Fifty-three percent of you that listen to this show regularly haven't yet subscribed to the show. So could I ask you for a favor? If you like the show and you like what we do here and you want to support us, the free simple way that you can do just that is by hitting the subscribe button. And my commitment to you is if you do that, then I'll do everything in my power, me and my team, to make sure that this show is better for you every single week. We'll listen to your feedback, we'll find the guests that you want me to speak to, and we'll continue to do what we do. Thank you so much.

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