Fidji Simo - Creating Delightful Consumer Experiences - [Invest Like the Best, EP.328]

Transcript from https://podmenti.com/t/a5429b2790712f63

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Hello and welcome everyone. I'm Patrick O'Shaughnessy and this is Invest Like the Best.
This show is an open ended exploration of markets, ideas, stories, and strategies that will help you better invest both your time and your money.
Invest like the best is part of the Colossus family of podcasts, and you can access all our podcasts, including edited transcripts, show notes, and other resources to keep learning at joincolosis.com
Patrick O'Shaughnessy is the CEO and founding partner of Positive Sum and the CEO of O'Shaughnessy Asset Management.
All opinions expressed by Patrick and podcast guests are solely their own opinions and do not reflect the opinion of Positive Sum or O'Shaughnessy Asset Management.
This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a basis for investment decisions.
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My guest this week is Fiji Simo, the CEO of Instacart.
Fidji grew up in a small town in the south of France and was the first person in her family to graduate from high school.
Since then, she's had a dazzling career with stops at Francis Leading University, eBay, and Facebook.
Fiji spent the better half of a decade at Facebook where she led the Facebook app before joining Instacart in mid-2021.
We talk about Fiji's consumer product experiences.
Instacart's role within the grocery ecosystem, and delve into her personal leadership philosophy.
Please enjoy this wide-ranging discussion with VidG Cemo.
Mm-hmm.
Before we get to the episode, I'm also excited to announce that I am hiring for a new position to come work with me and my team at my investing firm Positive Sum.
We are calling the open position an investigative research analyst, which will become a critical part of our investment diligence function.
This job is for a business, investing, and research fanatic.
And it's the chance to work with me and the team in person on a daily basis.
I can't imagine a role that has more potential for learning than this one. You can learn more at PSum.bc slash research. Again, that's psum.bc slash research.
Vidy, I've been so excited for this conversation ever since Ravi Gupta introduced me to you. I've so enjoyed learning about you, your history, the business.
Where you might be taking it.
And as I toyed with ways of
opening our conversation, I can't help but open with
A comparison between your experience
running the Facebook app.
At Meta.
and your initial experience at Instacart in part because it's gonna let us talk about AI.
first, which I think is just such an interesting topic for any big business that interacts with lots of customers.
What was that experience like for you? Arguably going from
One of the all time great
Business models.
to one that I think everyone knows as
a much harder business to get to scale and then maybe all the benefits come at great scale.
Just wildly different businesses. And I'm really curious what that initial experience was like shifting gears so aggressively.
Thanks for having me, Patrick.
My pleasure.
I would say
Facebook was the right of a lifetime because it really taught me how to
Combine this long term vision with short term excellent execution, because you never get to your long term
mission and vision if you don't have this excellence in the short term. And it also taught me
how to build great consumer products. And so I definitely brought that to Instag, but to your point.
It is a widely different business, with many more constraints.
Just to give you a funny anecdote.
During my first week at InstaCart, I remember joining our weekly business review and there was a team that had managed to save one cent per delivery through a set of optimization.
And as soon as he announced that, the whole room erupted in applause.
And I remember thinking
Oh, we celebrate sense here. Let's just say we weren't focused specifically on the sense. And I actually think that that culture of
Sweating's a detail. Sweating
Literally every penny.
is what has made InstaCard successful and has put us in a position where our unit economics are really strong.
In a market where there's been a lot of attempts at doing what we do, and attempts that have been unsuccessful. So
I've taken that culture to heart and I actually think that
Constraints sometimes create
just b better business and better operations. I find that people
When you said
Some hot constraints like
You need to be profitable, you need to upgrade, you need economics.
It raises the bar on
The type of talent you attract.
the type of execution that you get in a way that differentiates the good companies from the great ones.
You mentioned that at Facebook, you learned what it meant to build great consumer products. What does that mean specifically? What's the dimensionality of those lessons?
I think it was a lot about understanding
Exactly what consumers wanted and also understanding latent demand. And what I mean by that is
What was the the playbook at Facebook was really understanding what users were already doing with a product that wasn't necessarily built for that use case.
as a sign that there was something there that you could productise and do something bigger with.
And that has been the case at Facebook over and over again. If you look at Facebook Marketplace
People were already using the core Facebook product to try to exchange goods. So we build Facebook marketplace as a result of that insight.
People were already posting links to YouTube to share videos.
Oh, actually
It might be better to create a real video experience.
But there was always a seed of something that we would build upon.
And I've taken that to a hard insta car to really understanding
What are the things that people are already trying to do? And at InstaCart it translates into they're trying to figure out
what their meals for the week are. They're trying to actually
Come up with new recipes to diversify their diet.
And every time we see something like that, we just build a product experience around it to help users with the thing that they're fundamentally already trying to do.
Again, it's a great excuse since you've in both cases been at a business with just enormous amounts of data.
First party customer data, interaction data, clickstream data, just so much going on.
And I think obviously that's an incredibly important ingredient for applying these new AI tools.
effectively to improve your business or improve your product.
And I love this question, are you ready for AI?
For every single business.
To be asking themselves that question feels quite critical.
'Cause this appears to be maybe one of those platform shifts that everyone's always writing about and talking about that create new opportunities.
So what does that mean for you in the Instacart context specifically?
And how do you think about that question more generally?
you're giving advice to a company you were on the board of.
What would you say is the right way to prepare for AI if you're a company?
In the context of Instagot.
We've already been using AI for
Pretty much everything.
You go to Instacart.
Search is obviously powered by AI.
or replacement algorithm if something isn't available in the store, what we recommend instead that's powered by AI and informed by the
massive hundreds of millions of data points we have on what people choose as replacements.
Same thing with how we connect shoppers to the right store and so that they get to you as soon as possible.
All of that is powered by AI. And for us, it meant a very big investment in our data infrastructure because fundamentally.
Without unique data and data that's easy to feed into models, it's really, really hard.
to take advantage of these new technologies.
All of that unique data set that we've built.
Over the last ten years of understanding customer preferences.
having incredible catalogue data so that we know for millions of products exactly what's on the shelves.
At which we tell us what is the nutritional information.
All of that is an incredible
data set to build AI experiences on top of.
That's really the part about the readiness.
Now there's a question of okay, how do you build new delightful consumer experiences on top of that?
And I think the biggest change that we're seeing with generative AI is the shift towards natural language.
Because if you think about commerce fundamentally
It is a pretty weird experience online because you already need to know exact which product you want.
Go into a search box, type our product, select our product, add it to a card.
It is not how people think about their lives. They've gotten used to it because that's all we could do with the tools that we had.
But fundamentally when people think about feeding their families
They think okay, I have a budget of
Two hundred dollars for ten meals. I have a family of five.
One of them has food allergies.
We all like Mexican food.
What can I make this week with all of these constraints? That's the way you think about
Managing your family.
And then ideally
You would have an engine that tells you, okay, with all of these things
This is what we would recommend for breakfast, lunch and dinner.
And in one tap you can add all of these ingredients to your cart.
That is a much more natural way of thinking about the problem of what's for dinner, what are we gonna put on the table than the current such experience.
So we are really rushing towards this ideal use case of helping you with all of the questions that you have to run your family.
And helping you answer them in a much easier way thanks to generative AI.
In order to really embrace the shaft, you need to think about what it would look like to go AI native. And what I mean by that is
having AI not bolted on on the side to your current experience, but
If thinking about if you were
solving the problem that your company is trying to solve.
Now from scratch, with the tools that are currently available, how would you rebuild your product?
Would you we build it the same or would you we build it
In a completely different way. Would you have
for conversational experience instead of having a search box.
And that is really important because
That echoes in earlier stage of my career where
I was asked to figure out how to monetize mobile at Facebook during the shift to mobile.
And there was a clear

Taking their web experience and desperately trying to shrink them on a small screen.
versus the companies that were really using all of the tools that a mobile device had from
location awareness, to be able to take pictures and all of that to create
a really unique mobile first experience, and I think we're gonna see the exact same thing with AI.
I would encourage companies to sing from first principles.
with this new tool set, would you rebuild your products in a completely different way.
And then the second piece of advice would be
I fundamentally think that
AI is gonna make software development easy and that means that there's gonna be fewer barriers to entry.
So when I advise companies I always tell them
Focus on doing the hard things.
It was for ten years we have had the luxury of creating a lot of value.
From fairly easy things in consumer software.
And now I think it's gonna come down to
really creating much deeper technology. And even for us at Instacard, the way I see it is that
We are this unique translation layer between the digital world and the physical world.
The whole thing that we've built.
is connecting to eighty thousand stores across the US, connecting to a thousand one hundred retailers.
And this ability to translate your intent of cooking something for dinner.
into products showing up at your doors within two hours because the physical world is still gonna remain
Pretty difficult to navigate even in an AI enabled world.
I think that insight is really fascinating that the barriers to entry to creating software
are going way down because this has been something people have talked about, that there just aren't enough engineers in the world and they get paid so much and blah blah blah.
What does that mean? Make that tangible for us through the instacart lens.
What is an example of tackling a harder technical challenge?
than just simple software that's gonna become much easier.
This is point that I made about data earlier is a good example where
creating these experiences on top of large language models is gonna become again fairly
easy and then on top of that you're gonna have a lot of tools to help the software development process itself.
But if you don't have incredibly rich data to start with, that becomes a lot harder. And so for us
Building a catalogue of millions of items where you know the availability all across the US, where you know the nutritional value and all of the ingredients that go into every product.
That is a very hard thing that take years to build, take a lot of work.
And becomes the foundation for any other experience because
Fundamentally any AI experience that we can think of in the context of groceries
is going to result at some point into translating
whatever a recipe is or a meal plan is into a set of ingredients.
Understanding the catalogue of these different merchants is absolutely critical.
I encourage companies to really think about
What is the thing that's the data sets that's gonna create the most value?
Or the experience in the translating the digital into physical experience in the world.
That's gonna be really hard. And then you can combine
this really hard thing that you've done with all of the magic that's coming out of AI.
And that's when you can create really amazing experiences.
I think in this era of software being such a great business model.
And the margins being so high and all these things.
we've lost sight of the fact that we create software for a reason to serve a customer's end goal.
And I've heard you describe yourself as a pragmatic technologist before, and I like that term.
But I'm also curious what that means to you and how that
term applies in this shifting world.
I grew up in a family of fishermen, so uh I was always very down to earth, very much thinking of technology in the context of literally at the time putting food on the table.
So even when I joined the tech industry, I always thought about technology being used to solve real human problems.
I joined eBay early in my career.
And I never thought of Hebe as
this technology, I thought of it as this network where people would be connecting.
around their various commerce interests and communities, then Facebook was the same thing.
incredible technological feat, but fundamentally what I cared about was oh I could stay in touch with my family in France.
Very easily.
I always go back to what is the fundamental problem that we're trying to solve, and in the case of Instacart.
This question of what's for dinner is a question that every family asks themselves every week.
Pretty much since the dawn of time, and yet it is still a very complicated thing to do.
That's why a lot of people consider grocery shopping a chore, because it is a complicated set of questions that you have to answer.
Before you put food on the table. So again
AI technologies can fundamentally change that and make it easier because you can align them with
a fundamental human problem.
And I think where we go wrong is when we start thinking of technology for technology's sake.
And when the debate gets very theoretical, and we're seeing that play out with AI right now, where
You have so many of the theoretical debate on the robot's gonna kill us
When fundamentally I'm thinking of any technology is having a lot of potential for good, a lot of potential for bad.
And our job is to make sure we maximize the good and minimize the bad.
And the way to maximize the good is to really anchor on these technologies solving real human problems.
Your personal history is so interesting. I think you grew up in the south of France, we said, in a family of fishermen.
And I think you're the first person to go to even high school.
From your family, let alone college.
I'd love to just hear how you got this bug.
What was the story of you encountering
the possibility of some of these technologies and these tools and riding that interest into the
Obviously incredible career that you've had.
I would say
The answer will be so incredibly disappointing, but
I think it
Media helped a lot because
As I grew up.
I wasn't exposed to much.
I grew up in a small town.
And this world wasn't really even visible to me.
And a big part of my career at Facebook was spent in the entertainment category because I have a deep appreciation for the fact that
Media and the availability of media can expose people like me to the rest of the world. And I'll tell you
I was I think nine or ten when I saw documentary.
about HEC business school which is the top business school in France
And I didn't even really know what I wanted to do.
I didn't even know which job existed in business.
That wasn't a thing.
I remember going to my high school counselor and asking them
Hey, what kind of jobs would I do if I go in business? And they were like, Well, you can work at City Hall.
It was not
A very expensive view.
But I saw this documentary of all of these people who seemed
really in charge, really having a view on where the world should go and driving it to the lens of business.
And I became really interested in following that path. And so initially in my early years, it was literally just as simple as I saw the documentary, I just wanted to go to that school. It turned out to be
A pretty high bar given that it literally isn't the one business school in France, but I made it.
And then it was a game of discovery of what I
He didn't know before, so once I made it there, I realized I hadn't traveled the world at all. And
Again, the s media made me see the US as this land of possibilities, this land where everything's possible.
And I became really enamored with it, and I ended up doing a exchange program with UCLA, which is literally taken out of the movies.
It was the perfect setup.
And then technology came as a way again to expand my horizons. I'm incredibly curious. I want to learn. That's the thing that drives me the most.
Technology was a way to
Really understand how could we
change the world and change these core human problems.
leveraging technology and that explains why I call myself a pragmatic technologist because I didn't come out of it
Building my first computer when I was seven.
That wasn't my past. My past was very much
really wanting to solve big problems for the world and figuring out
Which tools did I have at my disposal to do that? And business was one of those tools, technology was one of those tools.
That is the furthest thing from a disappointing answer. I think it's an incredibly important answer. And I think sometimes about
the utility of what we do here with shows like this.
Is
For free trying to show people what's possible.
And I think it's incredibly powerful that media was a through line for showing you what's possible.
And obviously your story is a testament to just how far that can be taken.
As you think about the landscape that you're now operating in with the chance to have that impact that you just described.
I'd love you to explain how you see
The landscaped that Instacart seeks to build within and address and improve.
And the major key players of the industry.
Almost like an industry map as you see it.
Because it's complicated.
It seems simple.
But there's so many stakeholders and players and regulations and all these other things. And I'd love to hear your simplified map of how it all works.
You take a step back.
Grocery is the largest category of commerce. We're talking
one point one trillion in North America alone
It's a massive, massive retail category, and yet it's category of commerce that is the least penetrated online.
It was three percent penetrated online before the pandemic, and then post pandemic, we are at twelve percent online penetration.
And it's interesting because everybody was
Oh, you know, after the pandemic.
Everybody's gonna go back to stores and fundamentally we've reached peak online penetration for grocery.
But what they don't realize is that at twelve percent online penetration now
We are still vastly behind every other category of commerce. If you look at fashion, if you look at beauty, electronics.
They're all in the twenty five to thirty percent online penetration.
Which is kinda weird because I don't think you have many people who are saying that groceries in store is so much more enjoyable than going and buying electronics or buying fashion.
A big part of why that has been the case is because this is an industry that hasn't been technologically enabled.
A lot of the large players resisted online transformation until it was absolutely needed.
And now the big change that we're seeing is that there isn't really a grocery retailer.
Who isn't embracing online and
realizing that it's gonna be a third of their business at some point.
That's really the big shift that has happened.
That's
Fundamentally why I joined the company, Patrick, because if it had just been
An online grocery delivery service, which is what InstaCart is known for.
That would have been less interesting to me.
then this idea of building a technology platform that can help the entire industry
make their digital transformation. And that's why
We
don't just build the insta card app, we actually take the software we build for the insta card app.
And we make it available to every grocer that wants it on their own and operated properties. So
If you go to Sprouts.com, that's powered by our technology. We build these e commerce sites. Publics dot com, same thing.
That's a way for us to take everything we're learning about what it takes to
Create an omnichannel customer.
and distribute that to the entire grocery industry to accelerate the digital transformation.
And that digital transformation isn't just happening online, it's also happening in stores and that's why
We made acquisitions like keeper cards, which are smart cards.
That allow you to skip checkout.
Because we think that grocers are gonna need to really embed these technologies inside their stores because customers are gonna expect
a rich personalized experience not just online but also inside the stores.
that move to omni channel is really what the next ten years are all about in grocery.
How would you explain the balance from the grocer's perspective?
Maybe this is a similar question. I talked with Tony Shu about at DoorDash.
Which is obviously the grocery store wants what any business wants, which is more sales at higher margin or something.
And that Instacart represents an obvious sales channel for them.
But I guess if you could get all the same volume inside the store, I think they would take that.
How do you think about that balance of
How you are
serving the grocery store as
both a compliment and as a customer.
And sometimes both.
I'm just really curious about the relationship because it seems
Good, but potentially maybe strained at times.
And I'd love to hear how you manage that.
The thing that's really interesting is that there's tons of data showing that
An omni channel customer that shops with you both online and in store.
is more valuable, more retentive, more profitable.
Than an online only customer or an install only customer?
The thing that I work with with grocers is not is telling them that it's not about shifting an in store customer to be an online only customer.
It is about shifting someone from
being in store only to purchasing on all channels because fundamentally that shift is coming.
There isn't gonna be
a possibility to just let
The e commerce trend on the side. Uh fundamentally
This is coming no matter what, and what roses need to do is to
embrace that trend so that they really reinforce the loyalty that they have with their current store customers.
There's also a lot of data that shows that
The first grocer that you end up buying online from is a grocer that you stick with.
And so for growthers we tend to
Try to
push back against that shift towards online, they're at risk of losing a lot of share because if other groups are way more aggressive in capturing that online customer.
And that online customer sticks with them.
That's a massive opportunity for share loss or share gain in this industry.
Fundamentally I think our incentives are completely aligned with our growthers' incentives.
Because as they move these customers online, these customers become more valuable to them and we can help them do that.
What about data?
It's always been valuable for Instacart. You're built on algorithms.
An algorithm's like a lightweight way of saying AI.
I think more and more people are becoming wise to how valuable data is on their customer. And I'm curious how that works with the grocer.
Because again, if you're the interface layer, which you so often are, at least in our house.
for the customer to the grocer.
You're capturing, but what about the grocery? Do they push back on
Wanting that same data.
How do you think about the role of data in this relationship between the two constituencies?
So first off, we do share quite a bit of data with growthers obviously within the boundaries of privacy laws.
But also because we power the online experiences of grocers on their own property, they're collecting a lot of data.
from their customers there, where they can build a completely direct relationship with their customers on public.com, sprouts.com, et cetera.
And that's really important to them because to your point, they do wanna build that direct relationships, they do wanna be able to remarket to their customers.
And what we are doing with that is just helping them take the best technologies that we build for our own.
And making that available to them on their own properties.
Which is valuable.
The thing that's important to understand is that there are different types of customers for different use cases. You're gonna have some customer who are
So deeply
loyal to Krowgirl that they're just gonna go straight to Krowgirl.com, they're gonna order from Krowgirl.com and that's gonna be

And then you have customers who actually really want the convenience of a marketplace where
they're gonna get our membership program which offers free delivery and they wanna use that on many different categories, not just grocery, but also
Maybe doing that at Sephora, exporting goods, all of the retailers that we have on the platform.
And groceries want to capture all both customers.
So we have options for them to do that on their own properties and on our marketplace.
Which tends to be extremely incremental to their own and operated business.
We've had many surveys showing that it is actually capturing a customer that just
wouldn't capture otherwise if they only focus on their own website.
When we talked last, we talked a lot about this notion of scale. And I'm interested in the idea of scale around the core original business.
first, which is the shopping or picking business.
And what you've learned about that
I had a funny experience with John Collison from Stripe where he said
early on they felt like they were gonna disrupt everything and old the old farts were telling'Well
Payments is a scale business and he said, Ah, it turns out
Payments really is a scale business.
And it seems to me this is a similar story where
The march for instacart as I understand it towards good unit economics.
Is a story of achieving scale.
I want to understand that in as much detail as you can explain it.
How does this thing march?
Towards great
Newton economics, what role does scale play in that?
Scary.
Absolutely everything in this business. We used to
lose money single order until we got to a hundred million orders.
That's a lot of orders.
It took a lot of investment to get to the point where we had delivered enough orders and we had enough density that we could turn a profit.
And the way it works in our business is basically having density of orders at the store level.
So that we can batch orders. And what I mean by that is that
We send a shopper to the store and instead of picking just one order for one customer, they might be picking two orders and then delivering that to the end customer.
Which saves a lot of cost, as you can imagine.
And that's something that's really unique to grocery because
Most of the time you don't need the items to arrive at a certain temperature.
That's much more s the case in restaurant delivery. With grocery, you can actually
batch orders and pick multiple orders at once without any issue. And so that's a very big driver of our unit economics.
And something that can only be achieved when you have so many orders within a given store that you can combine that.
The other thing is that
Scale gives you a lot of data. Well back to the data topic where with a lot of data you can optimize much better.
We now have shoppers that have gone down the aisles of grocery stores.
Hundreds of millions of times, and that means
we can tell them exactly how to optimize how they pick products.
in which aisle, where they should go, which product they should pick first.
So that we minimize the time that they spend in the store and therefore we can be more efficient with that time.
All of these things combined lead to the superior unit economics, but to your point, it is a game of sense.
You optimize based on the data you have, you continue collecting more data, you optimize again.
And every time new orders come in, you can figure out a way to batch them more efficiently and ultimately turn a profit.
I'd love to understand the difference of the role of the shopper for Instacart.
versus the more general delivery driver. I would think of it as delivery driver, someone that's delivering restaurant orders or
driving someone between point A and point B.
What are the key differences to understand about the people doing this work, how they do their work, their costs?
Any other
big important differences because I want people to understand
Why one is not the same as the other.
Our shoppers are just incredible and they are very different from the rest of the app based economy.
If you look at our shopper demographics, about seventy percent of them are women. That's really not the case in other apps.
More than fifty percent of them are moms, and a lot of what we hear is that
They first feel safer doing that kind of job than the other jobs.
A lot more of the time is spent inside the store in the case of Instacart, because about half the time is actually spent picking the items.
Only half is spent delivering them.
That's really important because that makes the job very different and also
That means that the cost of fuel and all of these things that shoppers have to
account for is less in the case of Instacart than in the case of other platforms.
That matters a lot. And then the last thing we hear a lot is that
A lot of our shoppers really love the customer service aspect of Instacart.
I know you're a user, Patrick, but very often our consumers end up inside the chat talking to their shoppers and problem solving.
Oh, I was wanting to make pasta for dinner, but
So tomato sauce is out of stock.
Let's figure out how we can adjust.
And that requires a certain type of shopper who likes interacting with customers, who really thinks of themselves.
Not as to your point drivers, but really as
Customer service people?
And wanting to provide the best customer service. And that's why we end up with just incredible stories, I think.
Last year there was a story of one of our shoppers delivered items to a house and she saw an older gentleman
looking a little confused and disoriented, and instead of just leaving the item, she actually reached out.
to the person who had placed the order was actually the daughter of this gentleman and said, Hey, you know, that doesn't look good.
I don't wanna leave.
And the daughter arrived and it turned out there was a gas leak. For Shopper hadn't picked up on that, you God knows what would have happened.
We hear every day stories of shoppers going the extra mile because they really consider it a job where they exceed customer expectations all the time.
Which is why I'm so proud that we have these people six hundred thousand shoppers.
Delivering for Instacart.
Why is there not a grocery store that's a technological revolution?
And whether it's robots or something.
built into the structure of the store that just extracts out
You can program into it what you need to get out of it and it just parcels it up or packages it up.
So much of this seems like we're advancing forward versus working backward from an ideal solution.
Why doesn't something like that exist? Is it just too hard to do?
I would say there's a couple of things.
First, there are some places like that that exist. The reality though is that
The thing that matters most to the end customer is
Are you a brand that I trust and are you gonna get my groceries delivered on time and quickly?
And
When you think about that, the fact that we have already eighty thousand grocery stores that are close to the customer.
That is fundamentally the biggest advantage.
You are completely right, Patrick, that if we were starting from scratch, meaning no grocery store in the country.
You build it all from scratch, we would likely build a mix of fully automated facilities and
the grocery stores as we know it usually, I would imagine, co located.
So that you could have your high velocity items in the automated facility and then for the more specialty items, you could go and manually pick these items from the live grocery store nearby.
That's the ideal situation if you start from scratch. You're perfectly right, but we're not starting from scratch. We're starting from a place where
This massive source already deployed, and that means that
They are already close to the customer and it is actually relatively inexpensive.
to send people to a store to collect these items and deliver them to the customer?
Compare to the capital intensiveness that it takes to
recreate an entire warehouse, put a lot of robots into it.
of that warehouse be probably further away from the customer because
you wanna have a lot of orders going through that warehouse, so you have to aggregate and that means you're gonna be
Many hours away from the customer.
And that's what we're seeing play out. If you look at the people who are investing in this automated model.
What's happening is that they're usually many hours away from the end customer and therefore they offer very often next day delivery.
Which there is a market for, but that's not by any stretch the majority of the market. So if you want to offer
Delivery in the next one to two hours.
leveraging the eighty thousand store that already exists to do that is by far the most optimal solution.
It's a fascinating reality that you have to operate within and makes perfect sense. We haven't talked much about
The
brands that are wholesaling into the grocer's
And the role that they play.
In this entire ecosystem.
And I think maybe about wanting to listen to my favorite band on Spotify or something. And if my favorite band's not there, I get upset.
Same thing if I go on Instacart and I want a certain brand of XYZ.
That diminishes the experiences for me.
So how do you think about your relationship to the end?
Brands themselves.
And in what ways do you work with them?
From a business perspective.
S
Brands are
going through the same massive digital transformation, they are seeing a business that used to be
Fundamentally just in stall.
Move online at a very fast clip. So they are all adjusting to the same reality of how do we go capture this online consumer.
Especially since we're seeing the same phenomenon we're seeing with retail brands, which is
When a consumer finds a brand that they like online, they tend to stick with that brand. And so you really want to be first to make sure that you
maintain your category share if you're a category leader in let's say you know cream cheese.
Or game share if you're on new entrants.
The way we work with them is
by offering them a set of marketing solutions to be able to attract that customer.
One of them is sponsored products, which is if you type
And our search engine cream cheese.
You can appear at the top in a sponsored unit.
That's very typical advertising.
But also more storytelling capabilities. We recently launched what we called shoppable display and shoppable video ads.
Where brands can have
full video messages about the attributes of their products and then within one tap encourage people to buy them.
We're seeing a lot of momentum with
brands leveraging these products and we just released new studies that show that
By using instacard ads, brands are able to see a fifteen percent sales lift.
Which is actually really massive in that industry, and so
We know that our advertising solutions work and in fact during this
Interesting market conditions.
What we've seen is that brands have tended to cut down on unmeasurable top of the funnel advertising.
and put more dollars behind very high performance targeted advertising.
And where exactly that, you can literally advertise right as a person is building their court and get your product in the end of that person within two hours.
That's the most magical experience you can think of when you think about ads.
Compare that with the way a lot of consumer packaged goods companies have been advertising over the years, where you see an ad on TV and maybe they hope that a month later
You're gonna go into a grocery store, remember that ad and buy that?
That's very, very different and that's why you're seeing a massive rise.
In what's called retail media networks.
And the type of dollars going towards us.
We're really helping brands with that transformation. And
One thing I'm really excited about is that
It also gives a shot to totally emerging brands because if you're a really small emerging brand, you have just developed this one amazing product.
Good luck figuring out how to spend your money on T V or radio or all of these channels that are just incredibly costly.
Whereas with us, if you're carried at a couple of grocery stores, you can put money behind that.
And make sure that customers that shop online for that grocery store discover your products and then you can move
your products off the shelf at retail by doing that.
And so that's the holy grail for these emerging brands who who are trying to get these expansions at retail stores.
And are trying to open their dollars in very measurable channels.
You mentioned AI native before in
businesses needing to build AI native.
What would it mean for a new
food brand to build Instacart.
Native.
If you could give advice to a new brand that said, Okay, part of what I want to do is make sure we build this company in such a way that we'll be really successful on Instacart.
Does that mean anything? Is that predictable?
Are there features that you notice of brands that do better or worse on Instacart?
It's all about tapping into a category of products that consumers have demand for
I think it's a little bit of stream of
Just designing for insta card.
It's more designing for the online consumer, which we are a proxy for.
And there's this company.
Full disclaimer of an investor, but it's called Star Day Foods.
And I love that company because basically what they've done is really thought about how do you build emerging food brands.
with all of the new tools that online allows you to do and what would it take to build a CPG product like we build software products.
And what that means is that they e B test the name of the product, they A B test all of the colours of the packaging.
Instead of having focus group of five people, they put that through Instacart ads instead. And through Instacart ads they try to figure out oh okay
When the product is this way.
Actually people react better when it's that way people react worse.
And they optimize our product the way you would optimize a feature online.
And I find that approach fascinating.
It's very hard to do.
with physical products and a lot of companies are not built that way, but because your push was
If you were to build it from scratch, how would you build it? I think it's all about leveraging
all of the data that's online gives you access to so that you can create a product that consumers are really gonna love.
In a niche that's not over saturated.
Could you talk a bit about the big chunky pieces of your vision for where
Instacart could go from here because we've got a product that's just so familiar.
to probably just about everybody listening, they've used it or their family's used it before.
And you mentioned earlier that the shift towards becoming infrastructure or a software platform for
Other partners, grocery partners, Sprouts you mentioned as an example.
Is that the major initiative that you're focused on as you look forward?
And building on what
The amazing
data and infrastructure and lessons that you've already learned, or are there other major pieces to that vision too?
There's a few pieces.
The first thing I'll say is our number one job as a market leader is accelerating that shift from install only to omni channel.
That's the core of our business. We are always gonna be focused on that.
We're still in another penetrated market, so having a lot more consumers
end up adopting the instacart we all know and love is the primary mission.
But I think there's a lot of ways in which you get there and
One of the things I talked about is going and expanding our technologies to the store. And so how can we be helpful to our retailers and to our customers?
By developing in sort of technology, whether it's smart cards, whether it's
instore mobile technology so that the experience is much more seamless between online and offline. So that's
Definitely something worth thinking a lot about.
Another thing that we've launched recently is called InstaCart Health, and what it is is
Taking our entire infrastructure of again
access to eighty thousand stores, thousand plus retailers.
And making it available to the healthcare industry so that they can scale food as medicine. And what I mean by that is
making it really easy for doctors and providers to prescribe food as easily as they prescribe medication.
And have that delivered to your door the same way you would have a prescription delivered to you.
Because it is pretty crazy when you think about it that
about eighty seven percent
of health care costs come from diet related diseases.
And yet.
To this day it is much easier for a doctor to prescribe medications than to prescribe a diet.
For us what we are thinking about is
Hey, we've built that entire
Technology and platform infrastructure so that anyone in the US
We reached, you know, more than eighty five percent of the US.
can get fresh food in under two hours.
How can we put that in the hands of a hospital system or for doctors?
so that they can just prescribe food as easily as they prescribe medication. And how can we enlist
Payers health insurance companies to reimburse the cost of fresh food.
Because you would save them so much in Elskar cars down the line.
There's this recent study that came out that shows that
If health insurance companies were put funding
The cost of fresh food for people
who are food insecure and people who have conditions that are diet related.
And they were just literally funding the cost of that fresh food.
They would save a hundred and eighty five billion dollar in healthcare cars down the line.
From people not having to go to the ER, from people saving on medications on the line.
And so that's a pretty major shift that will take
Many years to play out, obviously.
But we're optimistic that we can accelerate that shift as a technology player that makes it really easy for the healthcare industry.
To start
again, prescribing food and funding the cost of fresh food.
as easily as they reimburse and prescribe medication.
You mentioned earlier the relationship with Sprouts and this notion of being a technology platform for other retailers.
Can you say a bit more about that? Cause I'm assuming it's early days there, that's a small percent of your revenue.
What could that look like in the future?
Is there a chance that
a major or majority part of Instacart's revenue in the future is through that channel, that you are just the big behemoth.
enabler and infrastructure provider to those eighty thousand
Grocers and all the brands there.
Actually a fairly sizable part of our GMV comes from transactions that happen on our grossers.
Sights.
We monetize it the same way as we monetize our core app, which is through a mix of
For feeling and advertising.
But it is already very meaningful. And that goes back to the point I was making earlier, which is that
You have a set of customers that are gonna wanna go to a marketplace, but you also have a large set of customers that wanna go straight to publics dot com, which we power, or straight to workman's dot com that we power.
And that's part of the markets that we want to serve.
We have partnered with a lot of grocers to make sure that the technologies that we build and perfect with our marketplace knowing that we reach
Millions of customers.
We can take all of these innovations and put that on their own properties. A good example, by the way, is ads, where
I was talking earlier about this massive trend towards brands wanting to spend on retail media.
And that's a massive opportunity for growthers to turn their
Commerce website
into advertising platforms, but that requires a massive investment in technology.
We can provide that for them. In fact, we just announced that we are doing that with Sprouts, where we power advertising on Sprouts.com.
And that means that overnight Sprats can start getting some of that advertising revenue.
directly to them and for us it's also beneficial because that means that
We can take the customers that are very loyal to Sprouts going straight to Sprouts.com.
And also monetize that customer base. So
All of these technologies are already
Part of many retailers' sites.
And we do that in a modular way.
It's sometimes we power
The whole website plus the fulfillment plus yad, sometimes we just do the fulfillment.
Connected to
a retailer's website. So we have
multiple models to really adapt to where the retailer is at in their own digital transformation and what
they want to build themselves versus what they want to complement with our technologies.
If you put your capital allocator hat on.
Up against everything we've talked about.
Can you describe your
principles of capital allocation. I know you're passionate about this topic and have read a ton about it and thought a lot about it.
And given the amount of connective tissue there is.
for the instacart ecosystem, it just seems like a capital allocators dream that there's lots of things that you could
outlay time, effort, and capital against and that the skill will be choosing which to do and which not to do.
So what are the principles that will guide you in those decisions?
Fundamentally, we wanna create value for everyone in our ecosystem and
When I came to Instacart, we revamped our values and the value I care the the most about is this value called grow the pie.
Because
I fundamentally believe that the best companies are really making an entire ecosystem rise and creating a lot of value for
other players around them and then end up benefiting a lot from that value.
And that's why you're seeing me invest so much in making our retailer partner successful, making our brand partners successful.
Working with the L scale industry.
To me it's all ecosystem that when they arise we will win.
And a lot of the things I think about is
One
We are in a market where it's even more important now to show financial discipline to show
that this is a model that is already profitable but can be even more profitable over time.
I also think a lot about
The fact that the tech industry has very much gotten a pass in the past for talk based comp.
And now we need to hold ourselves to a much better
standard and actually think about stock based compensation as
Actual compensation.
really wanting to be profitable net of stock based compensation. And once we clear all of these milestones.
really thinking about the cash that we have in terms of
opportunities to fuel the business and grow and
That can include M and A, but that can also include
investing in a lot of the experiences that I have mentioned because
We fundamentally believe that we're in the early innings of that industry and we want to continue to invest to grow.
And capture mon chair.
But the thing that never serves you poorly is focusing on free cash flow.
And as a result, we're very uh focused on that because that gives us
a lot of options in the future to reinvest in all of the different ways to drive growth.
What what do you think if I got a hundred
investors and other business people in a room that had some sense of instacart, what do you think the most common misperception would be about the business?
I think, you know, first off, there is still a big cloud over the industry of thinking of these models as fundamentally unprofitable.
And I think it's up to all of the players in that industry to show that that's not the case and that these models can actually at scale be very profitable.
That's the thing that I'm spending a lot of time on and showing
how we get to the type of unit economics that make us really successful business. So that's I think very, very big thing. I think the other thing might be that
InstaCourt really is only the app, and so that conversation shed a spotlight on the fact that that's not the case and that
our network of partners are actually contributing a lot to our business and that's also very important.
There might also be this perception that I think he's
outdated of grosses
not fully embracing the relationship with InstaCart and I think
When I arrived in the job I spent a lot of time with our growth partners to really try to understand
What were their fears? What were their hopes?
How do we align incentives?
And I think we're now at a place where it's very clear that
Or success doesn't come at their expense, in fact
Incentives of the line and
By driving this customer online, we are actually driving their business
For the future and
making sure that their customers remain loyal and increase
their share of wallet with that grocer.
And so that I think has really changed in the last couple of years, where that tension used to exist and doesn't exist that much anymore.
You've said to me before that
part of your management philosophy, maybe a driving part is to see the magic in people.
It sounds very nice. And I would love to understand what that means in practice.
What does it mean to see the magic in people? Why is that valuable? What do you do about it?
I would love that.
Understand this method of yours.
The thing I mean by that is that I always try to
focus whenever I have a new team member on trying to understand what is the thing that that person really spikes on.
It's the thing that makes them really unique.
And map problems we have to solve or opportunities we have to tackle to that person's unique strengths.
And that seems very basic, but sometimes it requires going beyond the thing that this person is obviously good at. So I'll I'll give you a concrete example.
My chief comms officer is obviously exceptional at communication.
But she's also exceptional at creating a teams that has a very high bar.
and very high consistency in the how output.
And that's the thing that
It's very useful to have in ops. It's very useful to have in product.
When I picked that up, hey, I actually want you to go teach that to all of your other peers.
Because they can apply that in a lot of their areas.
Meanwhile, when I look at my CO, for example, she's
Obviously the best operator I can think of.
But she's
very good at taking a complex problem and figuring out
how to organise teams around how to solve it and again that
can apply to finance, that can apply to plenty of teams she doesn't manage.
I organise
This is dinners with my team where I push them to talk about their superpower.
No one will volunteer Oh yeah, I'm amazing at blah blah blah. So I usually just push them a little bit.
This is what I see you do.
Really spectacularly well. How do you do it?
Try to articulate it for someone for whom.
that's not a natural skill and try to give them tools so that they can become good at that.
And I think that has made us all around the table better. That has allowed us to change our playbooks, step up our games.
And also create an environment where even when you're at the top of your game in one field
You can still feel you can learn and you're expanding in other territories.
How do you
Keep learning.
In a position like this
I'm always amazed by just the sheer amount of stuff to do.
There's just an unlimited buffet of problems and
Things that you could do that are great, fires you could put out.
How do you continue to learn?
as you also manage a business like this with so much complexity.
I learn first a lot from my team and
My team will tell you I am never ashamed of stopping a meeting and
Hey, sorry, dumb question.
I do not understand this. I wanna learn and that has
Helped me a ton because
Coming from
Facebook, it was interesting. I was running a team of six thousand people, so larger than Instacart.
The Facebook app by many dimensions could be thought of as
Bigger jobs than running Instacart.
But
When I came into a CEO job, there were a lot of things that I had to ramp up on really quickly. We just talked about capital allocation. That's why I write so many books on it, because like when you're a product leader at Facebook, that's not what you spend all of your time thinking about.
I had to ramp up on
HR matters and things like that.
I think I think the humility to say
Hey, I don't know this. I wanna learn. Spend an hour with me, explain it to me top to bottom.
That has helped me a lot in ramping up in a lot of areas, and whenever I talk to someone new,
I try to spend a lot less time talking about what I'm doing and really instead
listening about oh okay, tell me more about your world.
And I think
That helps when you have that attitude.
The other thing is that I try to connect the dots between all of my different passions. So to give you a concrete example.
as a passion project on my weekends, I've partnered with uh two co founders to create
a medical and research center around chronic complex chronic conditions and
I had to learn a lot about healthcare in that context, and this is knowledge that I was able to bring to InstaCart.
when we were trying to figure out okay how do we crack
getting into partnership with Medicare and Medicaid programs so that InstaCart would be one of the reimbursable benefits as part of that.
All of that healthcare knowledge came into play and
That's what I love about it is
all of the parts of my life end up adding to each other and I constantly take what I learn in one area and apply it to another.
I'm on the board of Shopify, for example, and again, great example of learning from one of the best commerce companies and applying a lot of that knowledge to Instacart and vice versa, taking all of my
Lessons and InstaCart and hopefully bringing that to Shopify as well. So
lot of cross pollinating of the different passions in my life.
What was the most surprising thing that you learned in your education on healthcare as part of that process?
I think you need another one hour podcast. Give us a teaser.
I think it's that
Fundamentally we
Have a health care system that will
Many reasons.
hasn't been optimized to really self patients.
And I think a lot of it has to do with
Sometimes Miss Alignment of incentives, sometimes
oversimplification of
The complexity of the human body.
And so to give you an example it's
About eighty percent of healthcare costs come from complex chronic conditions.
That affect multiple body system and yet the healthcare system is still organized by specialties that look at you as if you were just one organ, you know? You go to a cardiologist and they look at your heart. You go to the neurologist and they focus on your brain.
But a lot of complex chronic conditions are actually at the intersection of immunology, cardiology, rheumatology.
And that's why patients are bouncing around from specialist to specialist with no one looking at the full picture.
And that's one of the things that we are trying to solve with my
Medical and research center, but
It's a I would say a micro example of the bigger problem in healthcare, which is
So many different silos.
And myopic views that don't serve the whole patient very well.
If you think across your entire business career.
At what point did you feel the most helpless?
Helpless is just
Really not one of the emotions in my repertoire.
I always think about it as anytime something happens.
There's a solution, just gonna find it. And sometimes it's pretty hard to find, but I know it's there and I'm gonna find it.
I'm incredibly stubborn that way.
Which is a less generous view. But I think there's always some obstacles. I remember
At Facebook, I had made a
very big pitch for creating a video destination inside Facebook called Facebook watch and
For about a year, it really wasn't working at all. No one was going there. And it took many pivots to be able to get it to a place where it's actually now an incredibly successful product that's responsible for a large chunk of Facebook's time spent.
But at the time I remember I called that time
my walk through the desert because I was really looking for solutions and not finding many.
But I'll tell you, this thing that made me feel helpless at the time wasn't
That the problem was hard.
It was more that
I thought my own leadership wasn't up to what I wanted it to be to solve the problem.
The stress was getting to me. I was trying to solve the problem by just pressuring the teams harder. And that's never the right solution when you wanna solve a whole problem.
And one of the my team members took me aside. It was a
Ten second conversation.
Hm.
I've seen you at your best. This is not your best, and we're gonna need your best to solve this problem.
Bye.
And I'm slap in the face.
She is one of my most trusted team members.
Yes, I need to bring my A game and that means no fear, no stress, none of that.
And we ended up obviously solving the problem, but I think fundamentally
You go to Hoplessness.
when you feel you don't have the resources in you to solve a problem. And I would say it's just
Focus not on the problem, but focus on the leadership that's needed to solve the problem and you'll find a path.
I heard Charlie Mugger described recently by my friend David Senrah.
As indifferent to problems.
Having seen so much in his life and career
Ah, another banking crisis, whatever.
We'll get through this.
And it sounds like you've got sort of a similar powerful
Mentality.
And yeah that Facebook would definitely do that to you. When I arrived at the garden, they called some minor press saying Oh, this is a crisis.
No, you have not seen Christ.
We talked before about the role of AI and maybe generative AI even more specifically. Can you dream a little bit with us about
The experiences that that might allow for.
For an instacart.
Customer.
You mentioned that you might be able to input your constraints and that it would produce solutions and that's a general summary of it, but
Maybe get a little bit more specific because I do think
we're gonna start to see these real use cases pop to life and they will feel like magic. And you're in an especially unique place to be able to do this. And so I'd love to hear your personal dreams of what might be possible.
Well, I think in the very short term we've already released a plugin for ChatGPT, which allows you to go and basically
Start
Talking about anything you want to do.
I'm organizing a birthday party and I need
Snacks for fifteen kids, what do you recommend?
Boom.
You get an answer and you can order it in one tap on Instacall.
That's pretty magical. Same thing for entire meal plans.
Which I find amazing.
My favorite one because we were collecting those from employees was
My very judgmental in laws are showing up in two hours. What can I make to impress them?
Same thing.
Apparently.
Chad GPT recommended a caprice salad, which means that the Chad GPT really hasn't met my own in-laws, will not be impressed by that.
All of these use cases are actually very magical when you go from natural language to a set of ingredients to these ingredients showing up at your door. I think that's incredible.
On meal planning specifically.

This is my budget, these are my food restrictions, these are the number of meals I need to plan.
And have a set of suggested recipes and then being able to, again, in natural language, iterate on that and say, Ah, you know
The thing you recommended for Tuesdays, that's not really my jam. Can you suggest something else that's maybe a little less spicy and have something else show up?
That's really, really magical.
I think going forward there are something that are
really incredible where you can take a picture of your fridge.
And you can get an immediate answer on
Well, with what's left in your fridge, this is the recipes that we would suggest, or
Hey, you took a picture of your fridge at the beginning of the week, and now this is a difference, we can reorder all of these items. That would be pretty cool.
You can imagine.
Taking pictures of
Recipes on a recipe book, that the recipe book we all have on our shelves and never open?
And you could very close take a picture of that and now
the ingredients show up because it is very cumbersome to open a recipe book.
Try to take a list of all the items, all there's them on life.
All of that could be completely automated.
And then I think there's a lot of applications in health, wellness and nutrition where
You could imagine having nutritionists being able to make a lot of recommendations in
But yeah, we could wait.
And
Right now, if you are someone who wants diet advice, going and seeing a nutritionist is a very luxury experience that's not affordable for most people.
If all of that knowledge is captured by
an AI assistant, you can make nutritional advice completely democratized.
Which could be totally game changing for the type of problems we have in the country where
House fundamentally starts in the kitchen.
So I'm really excited about that as well and really reach the promise of having
a diet that is completely medically tailored to your exact needs.
And all of these ingredients showing up at your house. I think we're way further away from that because every time you touch health.
It is obviously very scary to make any mistake and I don't think the technology is there yet for us to trust that.
So we still need human intervention in the process, but over time, I'm hopeful that we will be able to democratize experiences like that.
Your point about the nutritionist reminds me to ask about content. At Facebook, you must have just learned an unbelievable amount about
The power of content, different content form factors, what it can do.
How do you think about the role of content in business?
Generally speaking, because it seems
It's just at the center of everything in our lives these days.
And I'm curious about Instacart specifically, but even more generally, just given your experience.
How do you think about content?
Plus business.
I'll give you a fun start. People spend way more time watching content about food than preparing and eating food.
That tells you everything you need to know about the role of content. But the way I think about it is that
Content is fundamentally inspiration. And I think when you develop a business that is based on
Inspiration, not just utility, you have a fundamentally more valuable business.
And this is something that we're trying to crack within the card where
InstaCot was a fairly utilitarian business.
You already had to know everything you wanted to order for the week, put it in your cart and
That was sure.
And we're trying to move to a model that is much more based on inspiration because when you ask people what do you not like about

Very often people tell you, Well, we eat the same thing every week. We are just in a rut, we don't want to think about it, we just eat the same meals over and over again.
Content is a way to make it easy for people to get out of that. Inspire them to change their diet. Maybe it's the world a healthier diet. Maybe it's the world a more diversified diet.
And so that's why we integrated recipe.
very deeply into the InstaCart experience. That's why we also launch List which is
Influencer celebrities
Nutritionist being able to create this list of products. So
If you're on a low sodium diet, these are the products that you should buy.
All of these things are a way to inspire people, nudge them in a direction of the experience being a little bit more exciting and nudging them towards
Products that they would not have sought to buy otherwise. And so
That's the role that content plays and I think
So real question with AI is which content gets fully commoditized.
versus which content ends up being truly unique.
And I don't think we've fully seen that play out yet, but if you think about
Recipe content.
You can now
With AI create entirely new recipes that do not exist in the world.
you can just create recipes that are like very specific to your taste in your family, et cetera. And
A I will generate that for you.
I think that there's gonna be a really interesting transition in what we think of in terms of content experiences.
And how this blocker of content needing to be produced and spending a lot of time doing that.
Some of that in some categories of content is gonna go away and allow for an explosion of these much more inspiring experiences.
So interesting. And AI seems like a question that
just about every company has to grapple with to some extent, because we're just all so
In the stream of content.
And one of the things that I find super interesting is
We're still with AI in the very early innings of what personality looks like. If you go to Chad
personality of that chat is fairly generic because it is a generic experience that used to work for everything.
But if you think about what that can evolve towards in the context of food specific experiences or travel specific experiences.
We're gonna see a lot of evolution of what we call content.
Because it's not just going to be, Oh, it's a podcast or a video there's a traditional way of thinking about content, but it's also going to be
about what is the character of the AI, what is the personality of the AI. And so imagine if
You could go to InstaCart and select that actually the chatbot you want to interact with should have the personality of a
Arrogant French chef and you want your real plans coming from that person.
Versus
A very
Like Gordon Ramsey yelling at you all the time. Exactly, exactly. Oh he wants a personality of a very warm and amazing grandma cooking come cook meals.
That's who you want doing your meal planning.
I think what we call content is gonna evolve towards being much more personality driven.
The next wave of
creator content might be different personalities for different chatbots.
Also the IP that already exists.
My mind goes Gusteau from Ratatouille or something. That's what my kids would want.
They were cooking something.
And just the power of deploying
IP is gonna be amazing. It's such a rich area to think about.
Well, Fiji, this has been so much fun. I really enjoyed talking to you.
learning about the business, learning about your philosophy.
I ask everyone that I talk with the same traditional closing question.
What is the kindest thing that anyone's ever done for you?
I think it's
Take a chance on me.
Give me a shot when
I didn't even believe I was ready, but see the magic in me and
Make a bet.
Sounds like you're paying that magic thing forward over and over again. So a lovely place to close.
Thank you so much for your time.
Really appreciate it.
Thank you so much, Patrick.
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