Carolyn Coughlin: Become A Better Listener

0:00 I guess the first thing I would say is um that listening Tends to be contagious. So how each of us listens Does tend to

0:12 Two Wear off on other people. That mind that when people feel really, really, truly seen and heard. It's one of the most extraordinary experiences.

0:23 that a person can have. Welcome to the Knowledge Project. I'm your host, Shane Parish. This podcast is about mastering the best of what other people have already figured out, so you can apply their insights. to your life. If you're listening to this, you're missing out. If you'd like access to the podcast before public release, special episodes that don't appear anywhere else.

1:00 Hand edited transcripts, including my personal highlights from the conversation, or you just want to support the show you love, you can join at fs.blog/slash membership. Check out the show notes for link. My guest today is Carolyn Coughlin. Carolyn has been an executive coach, facilitator, and leadership development specialist for over 15 years. Her journey began in the corporate world where she was a management consultant first at PwC and later at McKinsey and Company.

1:29 I wanted to talk to Carolyn to deepen my understanding of adult development theory. and become a better listener. I've had multiple friends point out that she is one of the best listeners in the world. And it might sound funny that I want to become a better listener given Most of what I do on this show is listen, but you'd be surprised at some of the insights I took away from this particular conversation.

1:52 including specific language to use coaching myself and my kids. Carolyn and I discussed need-to's versus want-tos, listening to ourselves and others, including three different types of listening. Listening to learn, listening to understand, and listening to fix. We also discuss listening to our bodies, which offer a different type of intelligence, the most common skills she teaches her clients that are immediately useful, and so much more. It's time to listen. And learn.

2:22 Oh Let's start with adult development theory. What is it and why does it matter? So adult development theory is a I sort of think of it as Okay.

2:37 A map. Th there are several different adult development theories. I won't go into detail about them. But um But they are each of them is a theory that describes how once we get to the adults, so once we look like adults

2:51 W how does our sense making change? And the big news of adult development theory, really when it when it first was introduced about fifty Close to sixty years ago. was this idea that even when we look like adults We are actually um

3:07 Like what's not this so easily visible. uh can but doesn't always continue to change. Just because someone looks, you know, that's twenty five years old and looks like they ought to be a fully formed adult. There are still ways that the way they make sense of themselves in the world keeps changing. So it gives us a kind of a map to describe how that happens and that's useful in

3:28 Variety of ways. Can you go deeper on that sense making Yeah, yeah. So sense making is um When I look out at the world How do I even know what what I'm seeing means? Right? So earlier in our lives

3:43 When young people look out at the world, what they see uh make sense to them in relationship to uh their own kind of physical well being mostly. Like they look out and see things. Like I would look out and I would see um my

3:57 mother l having a stern face with me. And what I would think was, what does this mean for me? Am I in trouble? Have I done something? Do I need to change something so that I will be okay? Later we look out at an angry face.

4:11 And we think. Oh my goodness, I've done something wrong. I've hurt somebody. How do they they might think badly of me. So I must be bad. So therefore

4:22 H what do I need to do to make the mirror that is this angry face looking back at me? uh be different so that I can feel okay about myself. later on that changes, right? I see an angry face and I might wonder, Wow, what's going on for that person? um what might be happening in their life. And it doesn't get so conflated with with me.

4:43 I'm kind of I get to be more separate from that angry face, but I wonder What does it mean and what you know, that it it it doesn't like influence me so much. So that's what I mean. Does that help?

4:54 Yeah, it's like we're making meaning out of what we're seeing. Yeah, exactly. But then there's another aspect to it. So we look out at the world and what is What meaning do we make of it? But also there's a way. Um, is like how do we make sense of ourselves?

5:09 And that changes over time too. Of course that's like closely related to what we see outside of us. But it's this it's this um interplay it it's really what we see. It's the It's the meaning that we construct. It's often referred to

5:23 adult development theories are often referred to as constructive developmental theories. Because it's It's a question of it describes how do we construct reality. How do we construct meaning and then how does that change over time?

5:37 And are there ways that we can change it or Is it just a way that we understand how we develop? Yeah, so I described it as a map that's really helpful because it gives us kind of a I find that with my clients, certainly with myself and with my clients.

5:53 It helps people understand, it gives people a language, a way to see um what might be happening. Like how I construct meaning of myself and the world has changed up till now and how it might change. In the future. So it gives me like a reference point.

6:08 Um and yes, of course, we there are many and this is what developmental coaching is is all about. It's like how do we take the experiences that happen to us every day? And Use them when When we are not quite fit, we find ourselves not quite fit for for our context.

6:25 Make. Up to w what Bob Keegan called it in over our heads. Um How can we what moves can we make to try to develop our our meaning making to be more fit for the context.

6:37 It happens better with company. kind of a hard thing to do alone. Yeah, I want to talk about that a in a bit in terms of how we make sense of ourselves and and how other people it it prompted sort of something that you told me earlier as you were saying that that a few years ago Uh a friend of yours noticed that you were saying things like I need to check in with the kids or I have to get home right after we finish up, which prompted a conversation on the need to's versus want to's. Can you explore a bit of that to me and the language that you're using? Yeah, so uh I'm a couple of

7:10 go to interventions. Um I'll call them interventions. They're basically a kind of a something that disrupts our normal patterns. And language. um noticing and disrupting language patterns I find to be very, very helpful as a developmental move.

7:25 It that story happened about, you know, ten years ago when my children were younger. And I was um I was really torn a lot of the time'cause I was traveling around the world I was really feeling like um I was experiencing the most exciting period up until then of my professional career. And

7:45 all parts of my life. And I had these three children at home. And a husband who was there with them most of the time because he's a teacher, so he didn't travel, he was around more And I felt torn.

7:57 You know, between these two parts of my life. And uh a good friend of mine noticed that I often when talking about my kids in my family, just as you said, Um used the term have to get home. Uh I need to check on them. I need to call

8:13 And um So this I already had the had this idea that our that our language is not just an expression of our meaning making. But it also shapes our meaning making. So

8:24 When This friend of mine noticed my that language pattern. I began to ask a question like what could I What words could I use? Um

8:34 that might actually change the way I make sense, make me it help support me to be less torn. About this kind of Kids and family and the rest of my life. Thing. And so that's what I mean. And I did. So I started to

8:47 really deliberately notice. And I could also feel it in my body, you know, when I was about to talk about need to and have to. Um There's like this tightness and constriction. And um when I change the words to want to It sounds like the tiniest intervention, right?

9:03 Seems almost. So simple as to be silly. But it really, really changed the way I made sense of my relationship to My

9:13 responsibility, the the role in the life of my family. It made it possible for me to show up differently with them as well. 'Cause effectively you're choosing it, but if you feel like you you have to, then you it it almost feels like not a choice. I almost think of this in in terms of three categories, which is like things I have to do. Like I fundamentally just have to do them. Things I want to do. And then things other people want me to do.

9:39 And this helps me when I especially when I feel busy, it helps me prioritize What I choose to take on. And it it's that little nuance in language. that is really interesting. And then often another nuance in language that you you sort of prompted as you were talking is when I make a decision. I usually I try to say I choose to.

10:01 Because fundamentally I'm making a choice. Yeah. Just by using the language I choose to It actually cultivates

10:11 Or constructs a new meaning. around what you're doing. Rather than the world or someone else doing it to you. you're stepping into it in a in a different way. Right. And it isn't just uh

10:25 Pretend thing. You know, they This whole idea of act as if it's Talking as if, speaking as if um I were choosing after a while that

10:36 Translates into Um you're actually seeing it as a choice. And often we just think of it our language as throwaway, right? Um

10:46 We don't see it as so important. It's almost invisible to us a lot of the time. It's habitual. One of the words that you used uh in that um response was torn. And often a lot of us are feeling torn between competing parts of our life. And we sort of the words that we use to describe this uh range from balance, work life balance, to

11:10 harmony to integrated to A mosaic. How do you think about that? And how do you help people? Co want to fulfill multiple parts of their life. And they um seem to have competing demands.

11:24 A lot of it really depends on where they are in terms of how they make sense. I've of these things. So work life balance, like notice the difference between Work life balance.

11:36 And mosaic. Those are Those are really different. Yeah. If if someone you know, that I'm working with is talking about work life balance.

11:47 I may not um immediately go to what if you thought of it as a mosaic. Right. Because the work life balance um It's almost I get the visual of a About one of those old fashioned scales. You know, and you're trying to get it.

12:00 Just right. I need just enough of um work and just enough of home. just to get it just right. And it's as if there's a a balance point that you can reach. Um that will be

12:11 static and sustainable. So if someone Sees it that way. I would Probably ask. Um a question.

12:20 You know, what's the most important thing to you about getting the balance just right? Or what's the worst thing, you know, about not getting it just right. So I would probably want to disrupt that. the underlying assumptions about Work life balance is the thing.

12:36 First. Or begin offer it offer a a disruption. And um see where that Goes. I also have to uh find metaphors to be really helpful here.

12:47 um with these sorts of things because often um I I will listen to the the metaphs that a client uses And try to tap into those. when somebody is talking about balance, I will present to them. Like a scale.

13:00 a a an old fashioned balancing scale and I'll just ask them. Like how does that feel to you? Just is that actually what you're going for here? Sometimes it makes sense for me to introduce a metaphor that's slightly different and ask them to consider that. So when I think of work life like work and life and integrating these components of life. It's not just work and life, right? And we we tend to break it down into this, but there's also your health

13:25 There's your community, there's all these other aspects that make for a meaningful life. that once you start thinking about balance and you think about living a holistic life, it becomes impossible, I think, in in my experience. And so the mosaic term or sort of like integration of things is very different because the pieces at different points can take on different shapes and sizes, but they're always there. They're always present. And you're always giving some attention to it, but you know it might be I'm gonna do less of this right now and more of this right now.

13:57 And this needs to be a bigger piece right now because that's more important. And on my better days. I I see it that way. And um You know, when I feel overwhelmed, I don't know how it is for you, I'd love to hear

14:10 Um that it's harder to see it that way. when things are really, really Pressing on you. for us to feel satisfied with the mosaic on any given day.

14:21 In some ways we have to be able to step back and look at it and see how beautiful it is. But when you're stuck in the mosaic because things are so pressing. Really can't see the beauty of it. All you kinda can see is the mass. One of the things that was interesting to me about that story, though, is how your friend took the words you were using

14:40 And ascribed a meaning to them and Like sort of it was a deeper sense of listening to than just to the words. Can you talk to me about that? This friend is a developmental coach and she so she's kind of in the practice of Wondering. When she hears somebody use a word or a phrase.

14:59 She notices the dissonance between what She would mean by that. And what she notices I might be meaning by that. Right.

15:08 So this is the the listening below the surface. This is listening for meaning. So it's getting below underneath the story or the words. And wondering. Wow.

15:20 What does that person actually mean by that? And it's it can be a really hard practice practice to be in because We also have to to do that well, we have to be able to notice What do what would I mean by that? What do I assume they mean by that? it and wondering then like how is it different, right?

15:38 always noticing what I think it means is probably wrong. And how could it be wrong? And therefore have to empire. And then the words that we're using change how we think. So the power of language is is really important in that. How how does The language that we use limit

15:56 our progress or our ability Our language tends to be habitual. like I said earlier, we often don't even notice the phrases we use. So I had a I had a client

16:08 trying to let go of the achievement oriented n um n nature of her life. She uh always needing to do things in order to p feel valuable. And So

16:21 She described to me What it feels like to her. To be Not adding value. So she often used these terms that were sort of like

16:31 If I'm not doing something. I'm just kind of shuffling around waiting for things to happen. you know, what we did was we explored what does it mean to be Like shuffling around waiting. And who are you when you're shuffling around waiting, what does that mean for you?

16:46 Um, but sometimes it's not that. Um It's not that. Overt. And

16:51 It so language that is limiting for people is often as simple as what I d you know, described to you, the have to's and the And the need to's. It often shows up as like I am just this way. Um or I am the sort of person who has to respond when somebody emails me right away.

17:11 I have to respond within five minutes. habits of language around. Identity. I am this way, I am that way. other limit limiting language you can hear in

17:21 What I sometimes call monolithic narratives. Um so and so is always this way. At work I never Seem to get my voice heard. There are so many of them.

17:31 So what we want. is to find enabling patterns of language. that help us in service of, you know, what it is we care about. Talk to me a little bit more about language and our identity and how that affects

17:46 our ability as leaders and people and perhaps our performance or how small shifts in how we see ourselves or even how we describe ourselves, even if we don't fundamentally believe it, can the language that we use talking about ourselves change? who we are and what we're doing. So I'm gonna start with a a definition of the definition I use of identity first. I think it might be helpful'cause that that word gets used in a variety of ways and all of them are right, but I just wanna be clear about what What I mean.

18:17 I sometimes call it identity with a with a small I rather than a capital I I don't mean um like my social identity or my racial identity or my gender identity or anything. Uh anything like that. What I mean is How I see myself.

18:33 And how I want to be in the world, how I want you to see me in the world. It's something we've been developing all of our lives, each of us, right? It's um we adapt as kids. We learn what works, we learn what doesn't work, we amplify the things, we keep doing the things that work and we

18:48 tend hopefully stop doing the things that don't work. So we get to a point in our li any point in our lives we have this sense of who I am. And We spend a lot of time. projecting that identity, right? We've perfected it up until now. We

19:03 in uh in what we do what we wear, what we say, what we don't say, what we don't do. Who we hang out with. We're always projecting this identity. Right.

19:13 Most of it's unconscious. And so how what does language have to do with that? It's just one of many ways that our identity is expressed. And every time I say, um

19:26 I would never do that. And in the middle of a situation right now with a With a a neighbor who's constructing something next to my house and um I don't believe that this person has been particularly

19:39 gracious or forthcoming or transparent. about what they're doing. And um I say I said found myself saying yesterday I would never do that. I I'm not the sort of person who would do that. That

19:51 reinforces my sense of myself as a person who's Whatever, consider it. Transparent So that serves me really well. Like it's part of I think it's part of what makes me successful in life and in work. And

20:05 Um it all also can get in my way because I often don't stand up for myself. If I see myself as the sort of person who would never do something that might you know, upset another person. It really limits me. Yeah.

20:18 that I can't do anything. And that would possibly hurt another person or seem like I'm putting myself first. Uh, because it would disrupt my uh sense of my own sense of myself. I think that's fascinating because one of the things I think about for biological creatures, which humans are, is that we have uh an innate sense of hierarchy in the world.

20:39 And hierarchy doesn't um doesn't just mean status, it can mean identity based hierarchy. And when you construct a world And this can be completely wrong to push back, but when you construct a world which is like I'm not the type of person who would do that. You immediately put yourself

20:56 higher than that person in this arbitrary hierarchy that you've created. Which is like no matter what, I would never do that to somebody. And you might be right and you might be wrong, but that that sort of like Is not the point of this. It's just your placing yourself sort of in and you're not doing it consciously. Like you're not trying to organize the world in this way where you're better than somebody else. And I remember I first did this when I was like 16 at a grocery store. We had this guy come in and he he you know he's illegally parks, runs in, he's

21:28 uh rude to everybody And you know, I finally said something back to him. It was my last shift at the grocery store, so I won't say what I said, but I I was walking home and it was like Well, you know, I might not be rich and I might not be blah blah blah, but at least I'm not And in that moment I was creating this arbitrary hierarchy in which that I was higher.

21:49 uh than that person. What I really heard in your story that That really struck me was What we're doing is we're creating a separation between us and other people. It's like I'm not that.

22:05 I'm guessed. Creating the separation between us and other people is Is On the one hand Um for our own identity formation.

22:15 It's It's it's useful, I think. Like how how do we create How do we construct our own sense of self? Again, in an adult development way. How do we become

22:25 self authored, right? Like standing On our own. Separate from other people. Um, this is important. This is important developmentally. And yet at the same time

22:36 the most complex problems that we need to s to work In our lives these days. They require us to see other perspectives. They require that we build. Trusting connection with other people. And so each time

22:50 We kind of fortify our own identity as separate. We are severing connections. that might actually be really, really important. Like on it

23:01 You know, on a team in an organization. Right? If you have separation among people Um it is a detriment to trust and when you're dealing with really hard Problems that can't be predicted and something just happens.

23:14 You have to be able to trust each other in order to respond well. Um one of the things that I care about a lot these days is Connection. And how important that is and

23:26 Leaders don't think of that necessarily as a core part of leadership or at least they haven't. It and it is. I think it's probably the most important thing. When you say connection, what do you mean? I mean the relationship between

23:41 Between people. People actually. Thinking about impact on others. Trust.

23:48 between people. It's simply it's be it's connection between people. It's Love, it's trust. You affect me, I affect you. And together we are more than two people separately.

24:00 Talk to me a little bit more about this. I a as you were saying that, I couldn't help but think of sort of Uh, work from home as an example of having an impact on connection in terms of um our impact on other people, trust But our impact not only on the people we work with, but the people that we don't see. If you worked in a downtown core and you're no longer going to a downtown core.

24:24 Well, there's all those uh little corner stores and Starbucks and grocery stores that are now impacted. By the fact that you're not going to work. And When you do um go into work, you sort of get a more representative view of society, you might

24:40 um sort of walk by somebody less fortunate than you. You might interact with somebody else who has a very different view than yours. Everybody has that crazy person at the office, but that crazy person at the office sort of like actually exposes you to what other people are thinking in a different way. And now we're In our own bubble in a lot of ways if you're working from home and you're you're sort of less involved in society maybe and

25:05 So you don't see the impact that Um you're having on this broader community. And then Also wanna talk about trust and how

25:14 how trust is enabled or disabled by sort of um being in person and physically connected. You're pointing to probably one of the most the things that is most on the minds of the leaders that I I'm working with these days.

25:28 Um, this whole work from home hybrid work. Question. hadn't actually thought about it in the way that you just described, not quite so vividly as you just described, Shane. Like When we work from home.

25:41 it's much easier to create our own echo chambers. Either on purpose or Inadvertently. And um because we have so much more control over what we let in and what we don't let in. You're surrounded by a world that looks like you, right? So you you hop on Zoom, you have this interaction with somebody, you get off of it, you hang out with your friends, you get delivery of food, groceries, whatever, and the world just tends to look like you. And the socioeconomic world looks like you, the political world looks like you.

26:11 And and my hunch, and I hope I'm wrong, is that this starts to lead to political extremes. Yes. I mean I'm you're you're hearing me hesitate here because It's such a It's such a dire hunt the prediction, right? I if we were

26:26 To play this out. Without any disruptions to that. Then The world looks pretty

26:34 Siloed and polarized. And and isolated. And we may be Like sp I hear people talk about and this was true for me, you know, when when the When the shutdown happened.

26:44 my three kids all came home from university and we got to spend a lot of time together that I thought we would never Yet again. So that was beautiful, right? People talk about the the wonderful things about work from home and those are Your your sort of dire story that you laid out. Um doesn't take away from that.

27:02 And I think we really, really need to watch for it. This is one of the things that um That We talk about a lot in organizations where I work. Um it is not

27:15 you mentioned this earlier, taking multiple perspectives. We have to often work. to find the perspectives. That are not only different from our own, but are

27:24 maybe even threatening to our own. And It's hard enough work when we're showing up at the office every day and going out into a world where we see differences. Because let's face it, we can shut those things out even when around the world. It's just so much easier.

27:41 when we're not interacting with um with people who are unlike us. Can you go deeper on y you said it was sort of top of mind to all the leaders that you're you're talking to today on this work from home. Can you go deeper on the relationship between Uh remote work, hybrid work, work from home. you know, whatever you want to call it, uh, going to the office and its relationship specifically to connection. And with connection I'm meaning sort of impact and trust.

28:08 I mean, there is an assumption, you hear it, in some industries. going to the getting people in the office. Is the only way. Two cultivate whatever the kind of office culture that that people want.

28:21 That's a pretty simple solution. And it was the obvious one. before the pandemic because that's what most People dead. Now you've got people who are working from home and and one of the things that we see I had a

28:33 a conversation with a leader several months ago. um who's in an industry where they really, really wanted to get people back to the office. He's the head of an office and so he's really watching the dynamics. And She really, really wanted people to come back, so at first he s tried to get everybody to come back and what he saw was real pushback.

28:53 From particularly The administrative staff. Now you could say that's a you could make up a story that says those people just don't see the value of coming into the office. They just want their cushy little lives and to stay home. But when he looked deeper, what he discovered was that

29:07 These people tend to live further from the office. So their commute time. um is really long, like over an hour each way. And the the professionals what they will call the professional staff

29:19 tend to live much closer to the office. when they're commuting, they're like in an Uber or something, going from one side of Manhattan to the other side of Manhattan and they're working while they're in the Uber too. What the pandemic has revealed. Is that for Decades or longer.

29:34 people have been coming into the office because that's the thing to do. But it's Uh, but there have been differences that have been not really acknowledged. Right, how coming to the office is a really different experience for different people.

29:47 You could say the same thing about You know, like women in a heavily male dominated. um work environment, right? Being at home.

29:54 working at home for people who feel out of place in the office environment. has probably also been a great thing. And It's also true

30:04 That For the most part, it's easier to connect casually. When you're in the office. It is not. Um Straightforward as

30:14 Everyone is finding out. And What is you asked particularly what's the connection between that and um And tr connection and trust.

30:24 Our firm has been remote. Since we found Edge and Two thousand eleven. And I'd say we have a lot of trust.

30:32 a lot of trust in but we've developed mechanisms to be sure that we connect. The like create the conditions for us to connect. Frequently and deeply. Um, both in the sorts of connections that we set up regularly as part of our systems. And the way that we are together when we connect.

30:49 So it it really trust really can happen remotely. W what are those strategies that you use to create uh trust and enable it. There are several, but I would say the The biggest one is that when we meet

31:03 Um, whether it's about a client situation or whether it's some internal thing that we're discussing or whether it's just that we're getting together just to Be together. We start every meeting with a check in.

31:16 We see it as a system scanning. Exercise. Right, so the check in Um someone poses a question. And

31:23 Every person in the room. Responds to the question. And then we step back and get on the balcony and look at the patterns. The question being What's in the room today?

31:34 Like what are the patterns we're seeing? And particularly when you do a check in. Um It's important not only to see the commonalities, the themes. But also pay attention to the outliers and also what wasn't said.

31:47 So It could take A long time. To check in in this way. And if you think about it.

31:53 when you bring a group of people together To do something. It's the people themselves that matter the most, right? That's the Raw material. Um

32:02 From which The work is getting done. We were doing it, you know since the beginning and um One of our clients caught on to it early on.

32:11 Um and And then it sort of became a thing. that that a lot of our clients do as well. I want to come back to identity and language just for a second before we we go to the next topic. Uh, is it something where we can create our identity through language if we, for instance, want to go to the gym or be healthier? And you say to yourself that I am I go to the gym every day.

32:34 I am the type of person who goes to the gym every day, even though you're not, you're creating this identity. And then you almost have a commitment and consistency bias to live up to this identity that you fabricated in your head just with these words. And so you're more likely to go to the gym because you see yourself as that type of person, even though maybe perhaps that wasn't you're using language to create a habit. What's your reaction to that? Absolutely. I heard something about that recently. It it's it's speaking as if And yes, I totally.

33:07 Believe that. It's not a guarantee. that you will it that if I it I talk about myself as a person who goes to the gym, that I will become a person who goes to the gym. And it's a nudge to the system. It's a disruption. It's a one of the many things that can

33:22 Create the conditions. for me to become a person who goes to the gym. W what does it mean to create the conditions and w what are the most useful ways that we can think about creating the conditions uh for success or results or however you want to think or define that for you? creating the conditions is an idea that is one of the core ideas, moves and and complexity, right.

33:44 So if you're wanting to make A change. uh in a complex system which since each of us as human beings is a complex system. Yeah.

33:54 creating the change of becoming a person to go that goes to the gym. That's it. complex that's a change to a complex system. Right. If I want my team to behave differently.

34:06 I'm also dealing with complexity there because people are complex and human systems are complex. So the idea is That in a complex system. You can't make change happen. Because the first thing

34:19 Yeah. you need to do is understand how the complex adaptive system. currently self organizes. So what are its current patterns? So if you look at a f a family is one of the easiest ways to see this, right? Families have patterns.

34:33 Um, they have dynamics, people play roles. We've probably all heard stories or been part of a story where one person in a family suddenly changes. And the family tries to reject the change, right? They want to continue acting the same. Even when one person

34:48 Changes. So The idea there is that In a complex system. You you you have to understand the patterns and then if you want to make a change

34:56 Um you don't intervene directly. Because the system will push back. Instead You make little nudges. Shape the past.

35:05 app to like amp create and amplify conditions. So that something can change. So in that family example you might the family might um a couple of key members in the thing, you might identify who like

35:19 Who were the strong attractors for particular un Welcome patterns. And start with those people. and maybe those people begin going to therapy, or maybe it's real even much smaller. Right. They get a buddy.

35:32 Who might have an influence on them in a particular way. for example, or conditions might be Family dinners. Or they might be um so family dinners are a condition.

35:44 um I think that that might create f um at least the conditions for family conversations. For example. What role does environment play? Are there examples of sort of environmental nudges that you can think of that come to mind? In creating the conditions for success. We always have the the opportunity to change our environment, right? As a way to

36:04 Help us. Let's take losing weight. One condition. Did we could create. is to

36:10 take all the stuff out of our refrigerator that we're super tempted by. that doesn't contribute to our losing weight. Uh another way to create conditions if you want to get More if you want to get stronger. If you could buy some

36:23 light light hand weights and keep them next to your Computer. So that it's you don't have to Lift weig and get your muscles stronger.

36:34 buying a gym membership is an example of uh kind of a direct intervention that often fails. I mean it could be a condition creating thing. But But if we think that buying a gym member is gonna make us go to the gym.

36:47 uh anyone who's ever bought a gym membership, or most people will at least have had one experience of doing that and finding that they just wasted their money. Th that's why they sell twelve month memberships in November and December, right? Exactly. Yeah. They're creating their own conditions. for uh profitability. Because they know the patterns of human beings, the people who own the gems.

37:08 What about something that comes to mind for me, and this could be completely off, but sort of like hang around people whose default behavior is your desired behavior. So if I'm a leader and I want to cultivate Uh better listening and I hang around somebody like you Do I naturally sort of acquire Um

37:26 Better listening or If I am a runner and I join a running group, then I start to hang around with people who run and then it makes it more likely that I become a runner or that I enjoy running. And then that makes me run even more And I often think about how environment we think of our environment.

37:45 most of the time when it comes to mind is physical. But our environment is also our identity, right? We're creating an environment in our head, an artificial environment, if you will. Our environment is also who we hang around. uh and there's their sort of habits and if we hang around people who are are sort of politically extreme, we will eventually become politically extreme. Or we hang around people who are lazy, we become lazy. Talk to me a little bit about your reaction to that and what your experience has been.

38:13 Well I'm I'm chuckling because I'm the parent of three young adults. And Anyone who has ever had kids You might notice that

38:24 Who your kids hang around with. feels really important. So I noticed that Whenever one of the Not as much now, but when they were younger.

38:33 Um when my one of my children would be uh have a friend that I thought would be a really good influence on them, either because They were like a hard worker. or ambitious or kind.

38:47 Or not the sort of person who got into trouble. I always thought that was great, you know, and I wanted to amplify that. Um So I think the less lesson there is There are

38:58 Yes, of course. the people that we hang out with. Um I think can make a huge difference. Again.

39:05 is shaping and creating the conditions. For us to grow in particular grow and change in particular ways. And Yeah.

39:14 you know, found out with my children. It's not a guarantee. I trying to orchestrate things just right so that You know

39:24 you're hanging out with exactly the right people who will get you the exact right result. Yes. probably the wrong mindset. A more helpful mindset. Is

39:34 That People. Communities. Doom. create the conditions for particular things.

39:41 And we can be intentional about which people and communities. We spend time with. um in service of moving ourselves in a particular direction. And

39:52 It's no guarantee. Which is the way it is in complexity always. There's no guarantees ever. Listening is something a a few people have told me that you're extraordinarily good at, I suspect. That's because you you listen below the surface, uh, and to the meaning and not just the words. How would you teach

40:09 uh your kids to become better listeners. How do you teach adults to become better listeners? I've never had anybody ask me exactly that question before, Shade. Um I I guess the first thing I would say is um that listening Tends to be contagious.

40:26 So How each of us listens Does tend Two Wear off on other people.

40:34 So I noticed Again with my children. that when I Listen. what we call I often call listening to when

40:43 uh which is to just make them wrong. Or like when I say, Oh that's not true, you you look great. Or Don't worry about that. You you know, you'll be fine. It might feel good to me in the moment. But

40:54 Is not. Kind of They they don't feel heard. That mind that when people feel Really, really, truly seen and heard?

41:03 It's one of the most extraordinary experiences. um that a person can have. And so Um Just being around that and having the experience of being on the receiving end.

41:15 Uh that sort of deep listening where you feel truly seen. And fully seen? is itself a condition. Okay. Four.

41:22 For learning to listen well. On the other end of the spectrum. There are very particular techniques. That help. People listen.

41:31 Well, for me the most important one. Has been really the training and under in and understanding of adult development theory. Particularly the one that um my colleagues and I

41:44 our most um have most depth in. which is the the subject object theory. Um, that it was developed by Bob Keegan and others. And In the subject object theory.

41:55 you're what you're listening for, the stage of development Is defined by what is subject and what is object. And when I when I say subject, what I mean is like what you're fused with. It's like the water you're swimming in. the lens through which you see things but you don't actually even know you have a lens.

42:14 And And what is object? is what can be held out and examined. And talked about Um like a a value is object if you can see how it's shaping.

42:24 What you do and don't do. Um a value is subject if it's in visibly shaping. What you do and don't do. For example.

42:33 in the subject d um this growth edge coach training that um several of my colleagues and I run. what we're teaching coaches to do is to listen For what is subject and what is object. in listening in that way.

42:48 You have to be listening below the surface of the story. And every time you hear a word or a phrase wondering Yeah. I wonder what that person means by that. And so it's amping up curiosity.

43:00 It's really, really foregrounding The fact that We each of us never really knows what another person means. And

43:10 Um so we can only be curious to find out. I like the word curiosity. When I think of listening, I think of seeing the world through the other person's eyes. I don't have to agree with it. I wanna see what they see and I wanna understand what they understand.

43:26 uh I wanna come back to you in part because I have a child that does this is listening to win. How as a parent Do I coach uh intervene um

43:39 Get this out of their system. How old is your Child? Thirteen. Yeah, I ask that because um

43:46 It really does make a difference at their developmental stage. how how you might go about this. And I'm struck by By your uh phrase I think you said Um how do we How do we we coach this out of them?

44:00 Yeah. Maybe that's the wrong phrase, but it like drives me crazy. And he's super smart, which is like it amplifies it even more because often he's right. So what is the hardest thing for you about that? Uh just the social nature of it, right? And how alienating it can be to um always be the person who um is listening to win, right? So from his perspective, it's

44:24 Uh I listened to what you said. There it I'm literal. Right. Uh and so It's It's incorrect and I'm going to do you he doesn't do it maliciously. He's like I'm gonna do you a favor and point out

44:38 Why you're incorrect. As a parent. Uh I don't know what to do with this because On one hand, on a literal sense he's right, on a social sense he's wrong. uh and on a is this going to get you what you want in life perspective it's learning when to use that and when to not use that.

45:00 And I'm struggling with him in terms of how I I go about this. So you're worried That he will Alienate people? Or is he alienating you? Oh, it's not alienating me. I I I think I I'm worried that um it makes it harder for him to fit in or um be accepted by his peers. Yeah.

45:21 So I can hear that really that That sort of deep desire for him to not have Yeah, for life not to be harder for him because 'Cause he is like he's playing on hard mode. Yeah, playing on hard mode and he's already uh exceptionally bright.

45:40 Which in another another way puts it on hard mode again, right? Uh in certain ways. So Yeah, I hear so deeply this I mean, geez, um the the wanting for To wanting to help somebody.

45:54 Change something that is making In your view, making their life unnecessarily hard. And And a worrying. that maybe tell me if this is right, but worrying that

46:04 Um That if you don't help them change this. It might just become a more and more and more ingrained habit. That continues to make their life hard.

46:14 Yeah. Well I think that I as as he gets older, I mean my role changes too, right? And it changes to Um, you're getting feedback. Are you seeing the feedback that you're getting? Are you instead of a direct uh intervention like don't do this, do this. uh, you know, it changes to When you did this.

46:35 Did it help you get what you wanted? In that moment. Right, or is doing this going to get you what you want? And that coaching after the fact is usually very helpful for him because he's like oh I didn't mean it that way or I shouldn't have done that or

46:51 I wasn't thinking when I said something. And so it it prompts at least a little bit of reflection around it. Which we all have as adults too, right? Like we all say stupid things on occasion or make a comment that we didn't intend to make and it has an impact on another person. And then we reflect on it and we we sort of that reflection codifies the learning a little bit. So it takes that experience. And it translates that experience into a little bit of learning and with enough reflection and enough experience and enough iteration, enough feedback, we sort of self correct as as adults most of the time. And

47:25 I think you may have a Part of your own. Answer already. Um So it sounds like what you're doing.

47:33 Is your Creating the conditions. For him to reflect. on what the impact of the way he's listening or not listening.

47:42 um is is having. Well trying to when when you said the phrase listening to win and you were talking with your kids about not listening to win, I was like, Well is there a way that I can put a term around it or a label around it when I can just say you're listening to win. And in that moment, that means this whole deeper conversation to him, which is like an instant prompt to correct or not correct, to nudge behavior. uh towards a better that he's choosing, right? Because I don't wanna make his behavior choices for him, but

48:15 Can I say something like that? And when you were saying it, that's what I thought you were doing. So this is where the question I didn't I didn't intend for this to be like a a longer question, but Yeah, yeah. Um Uh so your question is is language And giving language to something, can that be a help?

48:33 i in in shifting the pattern. Well well it's sort of a a broader question. If we take it out of of the context of of me and my son, it it's sort of Can we learn to listen to ourselves better, or does it take an outside person to sort of intervene and point out our blind spots? And with my son, I'm trying to intervene or or sort of point out a blind spot. You're blind to this. It's happening. I'm pointing out that it's happening. It sounded like that's what you were doing with your kids, or maybe I'm misinterpreting when you were said listening to win, which I love that phrase, by the way. Uh. Um yeah. So accurate.

49:06 Yeah. I guess my point is there are many things. And wan that you can do.

49:13 To help somebody. to notice what they're doing. in term in this case in terms of how they're listening. One is uh reflecting back to them.

49:22 what you're seeing. um and the impact of that. One is the invitation to invite them to reflect on it, the connection between what they're doing and What they want. Uh another is giving it language.

49:35 I I love hearing that listening to when is such a powerful it it is because you It you can just say that. It it's like having a Um, some sort of a reminder every time you do something, like a light goes off, a something flashes, and it helps to create Create the connection.

49:52 between this thing that you're do a really instant connection Um a reminder of what you're doing. So the idea of listening to win. Absolutely can be a It's super helpful.

50:02 in shifting a pattern because it ha it it helps you to notice the pattern instantly each time it's coming up. The other thing I noticed just about feedback, the importance of feedback, right? We often cannot see what we're doing. And this is why we need company. And we need company with whom we have trust.

50:21 Who will tell us? things that we can't see in ourselves. Um this is this is one of the core conditions for being able to shift and change. How did you use listening to win with your kids?

50:34 I mean I honestly, I didn't use the phrase with them. I wish I had now, you know. I really wish I had been more explicit about it. I took a more kind of um indirect approach. In which You know, for example if my I've twins And um

50:50 When When they were Younger, my daughter. would often well they they all listened to Ben all the time to each other Um but uh

51:00 There were times when If you remember when my daughter would get so upset With my son. Um For

51:08 making her life miserable in whatever way, right? Like I have to do all your social life for you, I have to remind you of, you know, what homework we have. Like it was this kind of stuff. And um what when she was doing that to him, or vice versa, what I would do is I would come in and make what I would call a listening to learn or a listening to see move. Where I would Say.

51:29 To her. It looks like you're really upset because um Because he is Relying on you. for everything and you don't think he should have to be doing that and it's not your responsibility.

51:44 Is that right? And they could just literally see her whole body Like breathe. Out. So I generally took the approach of

51:54 doing something different. A deeper listening move. Um And my hope was that they would See that over time.

52:03 And notice the impact it had on them. I probably could have been a lot more direct about it. Now that you say it, Shane. I I love these phrases listening to win, listening to learn. I'm I'm gonna take this back and incorporate it and I'll I'll report back to you on how how it works. There is another one that you might find helpful, which is um called we call it listening to fix.

52:24 Um and this is probably the by far the most common one. So listening to Wick Win is Let me make the problem go away. By telling you you don't have a problem. Listening to

52:35 learn or listening to see is, you know, getting underneath literally really getting underneath That What's being said. And reflecting back to the person. Um

52:45 And listening to fix is let me take your problem. And solve it for you. Or help you solve it. Just so you have the whole repertoire. No, I I I I mean this sort of comes back to to

52:56 Men are from Mars, women are from Venus in a way, right? Which is women typically listen to learn, men typically listen to fix. problem solve and this creates a a divide between us, or cre in your word earlier, instead of a divide, it creates space between us. But li we we tend to think that listening just applies to words, but we can also listen to our bodies. I mean our emotions, our feelings. V these all come from the same systems that produce our words and our bodies tend to respond to our environment more than our words or quicker.

53:29 Than our words. How can we learn to listen? to our emotions, our feelings, our body and and what it's telling us. This one I'll I'll start with how someone else can help us do that. And this is what a lot of um

53:43 Coaches do this, coaches who pay attention to the are people's somatic experience. is simply to ask. So if you were to say, Shane, I feel Um Really Um

53:55 Like I have to get this thing done right now. Like I'm so busy I can't be distracted by anything else. I might say So where do you feel that in your body? And If you're unused to even noticing that you have a connected that there's any that there's a connection, you might say,

54:11 I d what do you even mean by that? I don't know. And then um I might just like invite you. Two. Um

54:20 Turn your attention inward. And To see if you can scan and notice. If there's any connection and what it might be between any kind of sensation in your body

54:31 And this sense of being super busy. And don't have time for any distractions. So this is where another person can be so, so helpful. It's about creating

54:41 Noticing connections between things that are happening in our head, which is what most people are u used to noticing. And what's happening in our bodies. So it's just practice that way, really. I like that question. Where do you feel it in your body? And that's something we can even ask ourselves.

54:57 Yes. So you don't need another person. It can become a habit. a habitual question. Um that we ask ourselves. Uh I'm a case in point, you know, I would fifteen years ago.

55:09 If you had asked me To notice. Where do I feel something in my body? I I would say I don't know. Like I I would say, Okay, I can make something up, you know. Let me just make something up. I'll just tell you.

55:22 Um It just takes practice. We're only as good as the information we have. There's a saying in psychology that if you could see the world the way that I see it, you'd understand why I behave the way that I do. So a large part of the way we see the world is through the information that we have. A lot of times the information comes from the questions we ask. How do we go about the process of asking different or better questions of ourselves and others?

55:49 in order to get better or different information. The first thing is to notice the questions that You currently ask. So Each of us.

55:59 has habitual questions that we ask as well of ourselves. Of others. Of the world. I was working with a coach years ago. Um

56:09 who was extremely helpful. And he noticed that I habitually asked the question Why do I do this? And Um, there's this idea that our questions direct our attention. So you are

56:23 Alluding to this. A minute ago. So the question that I ask then becomes Where I look.

56:30 So my attention Because of this question. Um I would get sort of intensely focused on trying to figure out Um

56:39 What? was wrong with me or what was You know what What what led me to do certain things. And

56:47 That Turns out to be helpful in some ways. But often, you know, like most of us, we hit a dead end with that question. Um And

56:57 So even if I got to the why I do this. It didn't always result in me changing behavior. So that's just a one example. So how do we get different questions?

57:09 Um, I really do think we get them most from other people. Often in um At least as a start. So we borrow them from other people. Right. Um often when we're

57:20 teaching around about this idea of asking different questions, we ask Who in your life asks the person. The the questions that are either most different from yours.

57:30 Or the best questions. And do do you know what most people say? Children. Children ask great. Questions.

57:38 Because They're not they don't have the overlay. of what should I be asking? They don't have the overlay of I need to look smart. They don't have any

57:48 Filter they're just Asking the question that comes that occurs to them. And And so these are questions that we often as adults don't ask anymore. And

58:00 And so like like a bias. The sky blue. You know, I For for example. We don't ask those questions anymore. Because

58:10 you know, we feel that's a question we either should know the answer to or it's not relevant. Uh, we of I often talk about borrowing questions from other people. So listen to the questions Like I'm listening to the questions that you're asking, Shane. And I'm noticing Some of them I love, they're questions I never thought to ask.

58:29 And so like I'm making a note of them. I I love those questions. So That's the best way I know. How. Notice the ones you y you habitually ask. And borrowing. shamelessly from other people's questions. I love the idea of borrowing. I mean the the whole theme of our podcast is mastering the best of what other people have figured out. So it's taking w what you've figured out and then integrating it into our lives so that we can become

58:55 um better at what we're trying to accomplish or or live a more meaningful life in the process. I just wanna say, Shane, that the There's something that happens to us as adults. Um That we

59:08 Think we have to have it all figured out ourselves. Right. I don't If if you don't Have this idea

59:16 This is great. For those of you out there who don't who have never had that idea. Um you're way ahead of the game in my book. But the

59:25 We don't like the the world is way too complex for that. That sometimes Our greatest resource is right. there in front of us in the form of another person or someone else's idea. Like we don't have to do this alone.

59:41 So when you work with people, you like to teach skills that are immediately useful. and developmental in nature. What are the common skills that you find people struggling with that you teach them That make a big difference. Well, I think the first one is probably listening.

1:00:00 Listening. Better. Is Immediately useful. Because

1:00:06 Yet. Um Yeah. It it enables you to get perspectives that you might actually need.

1:00:14 to solve a problem, right? Super useful. when teams listen to each other really well, it makes room for all the perspectives. that might be needed to solve the problem. Um But listening is also

1:00:27 Developmental. Because it um It helps Um It it it changes my relationship to me.

1:00:36 If I listen deeply. I begin to see That I d uh I might begin to question my own assumptions. I might begin to see myself differently through your eyes.

1:00:49 So it's developmental in terms of the way I see myself. It's developmental, it can be developmental in terms of the way I see the world. the the more perspectives I can make room for Than more. more complexity the more the world becomes a mosaic.

1:01:04 Right. Um and so I begin to see it. um in its fullness. More and more. Because it and that is a developmental move.

1:01:14 So listening would be the first one, I would say. Another one that I find really, really helpful. Um is Well actually the idea of complexity itself. Right.

1:01:25 So helping people to See the world as a friend of mine used to say. To see the world as it is. Rather as you want it to be. So there's a

1:01:35 You know, we we teach about complexity through a particular framework. called the Kinevan framework that Because Pretty widely known these days. Um

1:01:45 And so it's a framework. That can help immediately to sort out if I'm facing some sort of a challenge at like again as a team. um to sort out which bits of the challenge Or

1:01:56 Uh Obvious so I can just like Automate them. Um, don't have to worry about them, don't waste time on them. Which parts are complicated.

1:02:05 We need to figure them out. in which parts are complex and then so we deal with those things differently. Um, as we talked about earlier. But also seeing the world as it this framework

1:02:17 helps us see the world as it is in its full complexity That is also um really developmental because it changes the whole mindset. Changes my sense of what I need to be to as a leader, as a person dealing with it.

1:02:31 And It changes my view of others. um from uh obstacles to necessary uh parts of the system. So there's all kinds of ways. Do you want another one?

1:02:41 Yeah, I mean uh two of the ones that you've said in past interviews uh that were the pyramid method and then polarity management, I believe. Yeah, p uh polarity management was the one that I was going to talk about next. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. In a nutshell, for those of you uh listeners who are not fully familiar with what a polarity is, this is based on the work of Barry Johnson. Um

1:03:04 Who developed the idea of a polarity Um years and years ago, decades ago. And um I don't know whether it's just me who's now sees it sees polarities and polarity work everywhere, or whether it's becoming more Commonplace. I think it's a little bit of both.

1:03:21 But a polarity Is um It it's it's two things. that um are interconnected And that over time you need them both. So it's like a

1:03:33 Yeah. an example in organizations is Um centralized decentralized. Right. Uh the if the question is do we need to be

1:03:42 Decentralized or centralized? Um the answer is most likely Both. Yes. Sometimes we need to be decentralized, sometimes we need to be centralized. Um in some places we need to it's in its dynamic over time, right?

1:03:57 In a very personal sense, what I would call an intrapersonal polarity. Is um Like is a question of do I focus on my needs or do I focus on others needs.

1:04:07 Well both because If I focus on only my needs. Um pretty soon I'm gonna be able to get a lot of the negative aspects of that. I'm gonna be isolated I'm going to

1:04:17 Um Uh feel disconnected. And I'm not gonna be able to get my work done. If I focus only on other people's needs, I'm gonna get the negative aspects of that.

1:04:28 Um, because I will lose myself, I won't have a voice. Um I'll probably get burnt out. So a polarity are it's two things. that are like an energy system in that they are inherently interconnected.

1:04:40 And to get the best outcomes over time, you need both. Um this is in contrast to um a a choice. Like There I have a choice every day when I drive to the office. Do I go on the highway or do I go on the back roads? Uh like

1:04:54 That's a choice. That's not a polarity, right? On any given day I can choose, I'm fine. They're not s super interconnected. But polarities are so useful in organizations to help not only to get b uh different and more helpful perspectives on Sticky problems.

1:05:09 Um they also get people talking to each other. um in ways uh that that um That I find quite magical. Um but they're also polarity or um seeing the world through polarities is also developmental because

1:05:22 It literally changes the way You see the world. Because you look out at the world and suddenly you begin to see so many things are interconnected. So many things are not either this or that.

1:05:34 That's true inside me as well. Yeah, when we're younger we tend to see ourselves as I am a this and I'm not a that, right? I'm an athlete and I'm not a student. A person who likes to do it.

1:05:44 Big crowds. And I'm not a person who likes to be alone. Um But as we get older. think we s most peop many people naturally start to see themselves in more nuanced ways.

1:05:55 Polarity management, seeing polarity is polarity thinking. helps us to see things in more nuanced ways. Um Which Yeah, not everything is nuanced, a lot of things are not.

1:06:06 But when things really are nuanced, um it's it's helpful to see them that way and not try to shove them into a box of of either or good and bad. A lot of what we've talked about today is sort of Uh

1:06:21 Recognizing that we're in a system and then trying to get a better aperture into the system that we're in And to your friend's point about seeing the world as it is rather than have you as you'd have it be. How do we do that? I'm gonna just start for a second with why it's Hard.

1:06:39 It's hard because sometimes Very often the world as it is is Can feel overwhelming. It can feel too messy. Two

1:06:49 Solve. Um, it can feel unpredictable. And In many ways, as human beings, we don't like unpredictability. Um

1:06:59 Although Interestingly. Um, we do like unpredictability when it comes to things like athletic events. You know, like who would watch a uh a soccer match.

1:07:10 um if you knew who was gonna win and exactly what plays were gonna happen first, second, third, and fourth. Right. We wouldn't do that. That's what makes it fun. Who would go to uh A movie If you knew exactly how it was gonna turn out.

1:07:22 But somehow in our own lives we don't like And predictability, um, because it leaves us feeling sort of out of control. So Seeing the world as it is, um

1:07:34 Guys require a leap of faith. in a way, right, that we will be okay. that um that we don't need to be able to control everything. In order.

1:07:44 To for ourselves to be okay. And so I think um You know, that having that realization, really admitting

1:07:55 That it is Hard. We want the world to be a certain way because it's mix it gives us comfort. And then The second thing I think is um

1:08:04 is practicing Being in discomfort. Nudging. ourselves. Just a little bit, a little bit, a little bit.

1:08:13 Um in safe circumstances. Two Feel discomfort and stay in it. Um our urge. It's like going back to the body.

1:08:22 And Uh. Often w there's this thing called what I call an action urge. that when we feel uncomfortable, there's something in our bodies saying get out of the discomfort. So we act or react.

1:08:35 to remove the discomfort somehow. Of seeing the world as it is. Um not just kind of conceptually

1:08:44 But actually being in the world as it is. requires us to practice being uncomfortable. And Um our bodies are s so and and all parts of us are really adaptable. If we

1:08:56 If we Um put ourselves in uncomfortable situations where there's a safe and supportive environment. Um, it's like going to the gym. Um if you want to s build your muscles. You just have to go every day and you do it.

1:09:09 Um So those are the two things I would say are are helpful. at least as starters. I think they're actually more than helpful. They're they're required. Let's talk a little bit about perspective taking and How we can um use that

1:09:25 More effectively. Most of us are aware. That we have blind spots. And Taking somebody else's perspective.

1:09:35 Helps us remove our blind spots. But when it comes to the moment How do we prompt ourselves? How do we turn this knowledge into action? So we know we should do something. We know it's probably gonna help us in this in certain types of situations, but we have a problem taking this knowledge and transferring it into action. How do we A are there prompts or habits or like that we can develop or cues that we can use to uh

1:10:04 Remind ourselves to take other people's perspectives. Yes. That I do have a very specific answer to that to that question. Um

1:10:14 Which is Is it Developing the habit of asking the question How could I be wrong? So just think about that for a minute, right?

1:10:23 Like it it is Most of the time we don't even think we're wrong. So the question it doesn't even occur to us, could I be wrong? And the question how could I be wrong assumes that when it comes to the perspective

1:10:37 Of another person? Um We probably are Very wrong. Right.

1:10:43 Uh our perspective is our perspective. And it's gonna be different from other people's. And so Um, how could I be wrong?

1:10:51 increases our curiosity. Um And Yeah. ideally the I the purpose of the question.

1:10:58 Is to prompt us. to get more curious. to go beyond our initial kind of assumptions about You know what the truth is. um and get curious and ask questions of other people.

1:11:12 And um So this is this is my favorite habit. when it comes to perspective taking. Two other questions before before we wrap up here. One of which uh is what did you used to spend time on that you now see as unhelpful or not valuable? Oh my goodness, that's such a good question.

1:11:30 The first thing that comes to mind Yeah. Is Trying to be on top of everything. So I used to spend an inordinate amount of time

1:11:41 trying to attend to everything from answering every email. You know, within a certain amount of time. To having Um, so having a clean inbox, you know, where I could actually see the bottom of the inbox on the first page. Um

1:11:57 uh attending to It making sure my house was clean. Yeah. This is one that I I just had to give up when I had three young kids.

1:12:08 Yeah. Um And so just You don't knowing the latest um Like research on everything.

1:12:17 You know? I'm making sure that I knew every last um Possible. question that someone could ask me. before I walk into a situation so that I have an answer for everything.

1:12:28 Um These just Don't seem to They first became impossible. So it was through

1:12:36 realizing that I was in too much pain. Trying to get it. trying to get these things to be on top of everything. Um And now I see that

1:12:45 Trying to be on top of everything. actually takes away my attention from the present moment. From being fully. Um So

1:12:56 I I see the temptation of it. I'm really, really grateful to be in this place in my life where I don't feel I need to do that anymore. That's a really good one. It it's almost like um And I I I'm not mapping this to you, but when we think of being on top of everything, it's not like we're consciously choosing to be on top of everything. It's almost like we feel

1:13:19 Like If we're not on top of it. everything, what will other people what does that say about us? What do other people think about us? It's almost like somebody else has a scoreboard and part of that scoreboard is like, Are you on top of everything? And then we're playing to that scoreboard. And eventually as an adult, you sort of like get to a point where you're like, you know what? I don't wanna play by that scorebo anymore because it's not serving me. uh and it's just causing me to go crazy because it's almost impossible

1:13:47 To be on top of everything. Yeah, it it as as you say that, I'm wondering I'm asking myself Why was I doing that? And it would be a

1:13:57 so many different reasons, but Um, I think it shifted over time. Um But There's some element of

1:14:06 If I'm on top of everything. My life will feel. Calm. And settled. Right.

1:14:12 There's some sort of a destination in mind. It's like when you finish that last um when I was in university, you know, I'd finished my last exam of the semester. There was this momentary feeling of

1:14:24 Uh I'm done. I think I was in search of that oh I'm done feeling. Um I think but it there are also a couple other things. One is um I think I was

1:14:35 conflating respect for other people. with being on top of everything. So particularly with regard to answering all my emails. Um

1:14:45 I I thought if I don't attend to things I will be de being disrespectful of other people. I will not be I mean, if you get down to the core of it. I will not. Good people do not ignore

1:14:57 things that need to be done. Especially when they affect other people. So there's that whole element to it as well.

1:15:06 And um I'd say that was a much harder one for me to to loosen and I still struggle with it sometimes. Um Because Because um

1:15:16 my impact on other people. I'm talking about my identity now, so You all as listeners can think about what yours is. I've pretty strong identity around being a person who other people can count on and who would never

1:15:28 Intentionally do anything to hurt somebody else. And Y you might wonder what does email have to do with hurting somebody else? It's a pretty big stretch, but not in my mind sometimes. I think it's also interesting where email is a medium where you want to be seen as reliable. Right? We have this in the desire, but

1:15:47 Anybody can just email you. And you surpass your time without your permission And then you or I'm mapping this to you, but like I feel guilty if I don't respond to people. And I'm like, but I never asked for this email. I never wanted this email. Like why am I?

1:16:04 the one who's on the receiving end of this sort of like guilt. And I'm putting it on myself, obviously, and and not other people. Um is that what happens with you two or I just think what? What what we're both describing here is how incredibly complex we are as human beings.

1:16:21 Right, and h why it could be so hard. To change because we have these Back to identity, this sense of ourselves. as a certain kind of person and it has worked, otherwise we wouldn't have we wouldn't be here at at this place where we have this identity in the first place.

1:16:37 And last question, uh what does success mean to you? This sounds so trite. I just want to look back on my life. And now that um

1:16:47 That my Presence mattered to somebody else. Like that by me being Yeah. Whether it's in a room, you know

1:16:57 running a workshop or whether it's in a friendship, whether it's with my children or my partner. Or Anyone else that might presence mattered. And not because I had great ideas. Um, not because I was so smart.

1:17:12 But that in my presence Another person could be more fully themselves. That's one definition of success for me. That's beautiful. Thank you so much for taking the time today.

1:17:34 Thank you, Sean. Thanks and learning with us. For a complete list of episodes, show notes. Transcripts and more. Go to fs dot blog slash podcast.

1:17:53 Or just Google the Knowledge Project. Until next time.

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