Meta’s Head of Product (and 29th employee) on working with Mark Zuckerberg, early growth tactics, why PMs are like conductors, and more | Naomi Gleit

Transcript from https://podmenti.com/t/b3609bc06e5337a2

I really believe in frameworks for things that helps drive extreme clarity. I work on a lot of different projects. A lot of times I'm ramping up mid-project. I'm like, where can I learn what I need to learn about this project? I ask five different people, get five different answers. That is unacceptable. Of course, I'm sure there's hundreds of docs associated with the project, but there needs to be one canonical doc.
Everyone should know exactly where the canonical dock is. That's the one place I can go to to get all the information I need about a project and it will link to all the other docs. Things on the canonical dock are

Today my guest is Naomi Gleite. Naomi is head of product at Meta.
Other than Mark Zuckerberg, she's the longest serving executive at Meta.
She joined what was then called Facebook as employee number twenty nine.
And has been at Meta for almost twenty years.
She's seen the company scale from thirty employees to the one and a half trillion dollar business that it is today.
Naomi does very few podcasts and interviews, and so I is really excited to chat with her and have her on this podcast. In our conversation, we dig into the many lessons that she learned from Facebook's early and legendary growth team.
Her superpower of taking really complex and gnarly problems and projects, simplifying them and delivering results.
We also get into leadership lessons she's learned from Zuck, including his recent transformation into possibly the coolest CEO in tech. Also, YPMs are the conductor of product teams some very tactical tips for running meetings, writing docs, working out, getting better sleep, and even how to get more protein in your diet.
This was such a fun conversation and such a wide ranging conversation, and whether you're in product or growth,
or any other attack function, you will get something useful out of this conversation.
If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube. It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes.
And helps the podcast tremendously.
With that, I bring you Naomi Gleit.

Naomi, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the podcast.
Thanks so much for having me. As I told you earlier, I
refer your podcast all the time and so I can't believe I have the opportunity to actually talk on it.
Well
I'm still flattered.
Nah, I never get tired of hearing that.
Appreciate you sharing that.
I wanna share a couple of tidbits about you because it's pretty crazy when you
uh see this list. Okay, so
You're Meta's longest serving executive.
Other than Mark Zuckerberg.
You're employee number twenty nine.
At Facebook.
You've been there for over nineteen years. Sorry, at Meta, formerly Facebook.
I do that all the time. That's what happens when you've been at Meta.
For nineteen years is you can't get the name right. Okay, good. I won't feel bad about that then.
And then the last thing is just you've been
uh at the center of some of the most foundational products that Meta and Facebook have worked on, including working on the early growth team and thinking about the early growth strategy.
Basically you've been there from employee number thirty two
Today uh one and a half trillion dollar company, one of the largest companies.
In the world today.
Very few people have ever seen this sort of growth and scale from the inside.
First of all, I guess let me just ask this do you ever th reflect on this and just realize like holy shit, what a journey I've been on. How
How wild.
Um, it's a great question. I would love to say that I
I reflect on it. The truth is, I think I barely have time to reflect right now. I'm thinking about all the things that I need to do on my to-do list. So I'm pretty in it still, even after nineteen years.
I am
really focused on the work that I need to do. I do
Honestly have
moments where I get to reflect, for example, like on this podcast.
Um, sometimes people do ask me, you know, and I think especially as I approach the twenty year.
Milestone, my twenty year face versus, I'm sure that will give ample opportunity for me to look back.
Such a classic product manager answer, like I'm just I have too much to do busy think about this. Yeah.
I gotta hit some goals here.
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Let me start. I wanna start about just how you actually landed at Meta as employee number twenty nine, which is a
life changing decision and a life changing role. And um
I wanna learn if there's something folks can see about what you did that might be helpful to them when they're trying to find a place to work.
And your story is reading about the story and it's super interesting. You basically wrote it your
senior thesis at Stanford about why Facebook was gonna win and why it was gonna
Beat its competitors.
And the competitor cited I've never even heard of. So it's interesting that that was the competitor at the time.
You just share the story of how you landed as
Employee number twenty nine at Facebook now, Meta.
Facebook
um as a pro you know, as part of being an academic, researching Facebook, also being a Stanford student using Facebook, I was like, I really
Want to work here.
Uh Facebook had just moved to Palo Alto. Mark had driven across country, I guess, and arrived in Palo Alto, opened up an office at four four three Emerson Avenue Emerson Avenue.
Or Emerson Street. It was right above the Jing Jing's Chinese restaurant in downtown Palo Alto.
And I just went to the office, sort of cold called the equivalent of just walking into the office and seeing if there were any available jobs.
There were not
I think I did that maybe five to ten more times. Eventually there was an opening to interview for
Sean Parker's personal assistant, he was at the time, I think, the president.
I did interview and I did not get the job.
A few months later I found out about a marketing role uh that was available.
And one interesting thing I haven't really talked about was
I got an offer from Facebook. I also got a competing offer from LinkedIn.
And so at that time I I I made the choice to go to Facebook because I was interested in sort of the social networking.
aspect of it. Why was I so bullish on this this website? Um at the time it was www dotfacebook.com. Like why was I so excited about this thing?
I think it's because
I definitely saw that there was product market fit.
I saw that
Students on Stanford at Stanford were obsessed with it.
But it also had a long list of colleges that were
really excited and on the waiting list.
to um be accepted onto Facebook. And so there was this like product market fit piece and also a huge demand from other
other audiences, other colleges, but you know, our younger brothers and sisters were also sort of interested about Facebook and it seemed like it had this
much broader appeal. Um
So
That's what happened. I got the marketing job. Cheryl also talks about
When you are getting on a rocket ship, don't ask what seat.
That was my foot in the door and
Here we are nineteen years later.
I was just gonna say that that that's such a good example of what she recommends of if you
Can get a seat on a rocket ship, don't ask which seat.
And uh I love the Sean Parker piece. I did not know that. That's hilarious.
What a different life it would have been if you got that job and went down that track. So a couple of takeaways here for
People that
are trying to pick where to work. What I love about your story is one is just like you had so much you just had confidence that this business would work.
And you just knew that
You wanted to get on this rocket ship.
You saw traction, so I told you give you I guess that added to this confidence that this is gonna work out.
And then the you said that you uh walked into the office kinda cold.
Uh not even cold emailing or calling, but cold arriving.
Five to ten times you said?
Yeah, it was it was pure
Um
Pure sort of
just like refusing to quit. I think I just walked into the office, I talked to the person at the front desk. Is there anything that I can do? They weren't hiring non-technical people. I didn't have a computer science degree. I wasn't technical. I had this bachelor of arts degree. And um and that's why the personal assistant in the marketing role eventually did open.
Um and was something that I thought I could be qualified for.
Cool. I think that's such an empowering lesson of
Uh, if you look at someone like you and they're like, Oh, she's so early at Facebook, how lucky.
Clearly wasn't lucky.
knew you wanted to work at this company, you
put a lot of effort into making it happen no matter the job.
I think that's a really good takeaway and lesson. So if there's
company today that you're excited about. They're just like this is gonna be a massive success.
What I'm hearing is just do everything you can to try to land a job there and eventually you'll be in the a role you actually want. It doesn't have to start there.
When I got to Facebook, I knew I wanted a build.
as someone who wasn't really technical, I wasn't gonna be an engineer or a coder. I wanted to work with the engineers and the coders to build
products. I thought product management was
the right function for me. And so my dream was always to be
a PM and it wasn't luck as to how I ended up
Becoming a PM, I sort of took the same approach showing up at the office asking if there were any roles.
By then we had moved to one hundred fifty six university.
Um, and all of the PMs and engineers worked on the second floor.
And I was working in marketing, like I mentioned, and I worked on the third floor, and all the business functions worked on the third floor. And
My goal was to be a PM. I ended up going
sort of the the analogy, I went to the second floor most days after work, asked if there were any projects that I could help out with. You know, it was very early days. There was always more to do.
um than people to do it. And so eventually I picked up a few
projects, helping with program management, you know, giving my product feedback, um
And
By the time that I actually applied formally,
To be a product manager, I had been doing the job
voluntarily, almost informally, for a few months and
I remember this because I don't
had a seat on the third floor, I picked up all the stuff on my desk, put it in a box,
walked down to the second floor once I got the job to
to become a PM and when I got to the second floor
I distinctly remember everyone on the second floor standing.
And clapping. And so it was a big standing ovation. I'll never forget Boz was there, by the way. I know Boz has been on your podcast, but
Even Baz was there sort of standing and clapping.
And so I I guess, you know, to
Shadow
The lesson that you were trying to extract from my story, I do think I sort of tried to create the luck.
Um
by by not giving up, um, and just repeatedly cold calling or cold showing up or cold volunteering until
They sort of.
you know, was able to make it happen.
Amazing. Again, very empowering. It's not just like
Oh, there's these people that just get lucky and they go buy in this PM job. It's like
You landed at the company, I wanna be a product manager. Which is interesting. Most people don't like grow up and like, I want to be a product manager. That's like a rare
uh a rare thing people even want, uh, especially that early on. So it's interesting that you already knew that.
But uh
You basically did the job. You did the job of PM before you had the job.
And
by the time you actually ask for it, you've been doing it for a long time and you could show, Hey, look, I'm actually good at this. I can do this job.
Awesome.
Um, by the way, I love the Boz connection. I'm finding that Boz is connected to the the most guest of this podcast in so many different ways.
Really? Yeah. Like Ami
And Oh yeah.
And uh a few other people. It's just interest there's like a Boz spiderweb of connections.
Throughout this podcast so far.
Um okay, so
I'm gonna fast forward to today. So your role today is head of product.
Meta.
Yes. What does that mean? What is what do you do at Meta today? How would you describe
You're all.
So
You know, there are a few thousand PMs at Meta. Um
Mm.
They do not all report to me.
um, I would say a few hundred of them report to me on the teams that I directly manage, but
I feel responsible for the entire PM community at Meta. There are things that we do centrally, things like PM performance, PM culture, PM onboarding and training, and that's the kind of thing that I look out for.
you know, obviously I wanted to be a PM
Head of product is my dream job.
I
And
you know, deeply um supportive of the PM
function and so I really care and I think it's PMs are huge point of lever.
uh leverage in a company.
for how we can actually, you know, get stuff done and and help accomplish the company's goals. And so that's
I I sort of focus on PM as like a a really
important exponential lever for doing that.
I love that.
Okay.
I'm gonna come back to what you've learned about what makes super successful PMs and what makes you really successful. I wanna take a tangent.
To Zuck.
Yeah.
Okay.
You've known Zuck for over twenty years at this point.
And I just have to ask a few Zuck questions'cause people are always curious to learn from
What has worked so well for him?
The first question is just there's been a pretty profound transformation in
in and Mark over the past few years, both in terms of how he leads and also just in his like coolness and vibe factor.
Uh what are your thoughts on just this transformation and how he's able to been been been able to pull it off?
So I've always said that there is the biggest gap of anybody I know.
Between
What people think of Mark and who Mark
Really is.
And so
I think this is the mark that I've known for the past twenty years, and the world is finally getting to see what I've been lucky enough to see in that gap.

It's really starting to close.
How how did we get here? I always say Mark is a learn it all, not a know it all.
He is the fastest person at upskilling of anyone I've ever met. He used to do these annual challenges one year I did them
With him, it was learning Chinese, and within a year he was able to basically achieve an eighth grade fluency in Chinese. And
That's just one example, obviously. He's gotten incredibly great at guitar.
MMA, a lot of his passions, but he's also gotten a lot of
a lot better at some of the professional skills, and I think
negotiation, public speaking is one of those. I think before in the early days, it just wasn't something that he was very comfortable with. He's talked himself about coming across as
Little scripted. I think he was
not confident and and pretty careful about how he showed up and
He's upskilled here. He's just gotten a lot more comfortable and so people are able to see who he
Who he really is.
He was also like, I don't know, twenty something uh uh when he started Facebook and now he's running uh
Eighty thousand person org, you know, I could see.
It could see they should have it.
Yes, I think he was I think he was might have been
Nineteen twenty, whenever I'm gonna go.
So yeah, I could see how why why someone would change. Uh I was at the uh the Quired Podcast Chase event with him being interviewed and he's just like such a cool dude now. He just has these like big shirts with his own like
Letters.
Phrases.
Chain. What a cool dude.
His his long hair. His long hair. His watch. Yeah. I was at that event too. I thought it was great. I think
Yeah, that's
That's the
Yeah.
No gap between who Mark is and and what the world sees.
I love that.
Is there something about Zuck that
You know that most people don't know.
Something that would surprise us.
One thing I would say about Mark is I think people people know he's married, he has three daughters, he's a really great dad, he's a really great husband.
I would say he's also a really good friend. Maybe that's something that I can
sort of speak to from experience. Um
He's just an incredibly thoughtful friend. There was a period in my life I think

ten years ago when I was going through just sort of like a really hard time I had
Come out of a breakup, but Mark saw that I was having a hard time. He asked me if
I wanted to volunteer
um to teach a class in um East Palo Alto after after their school day.
And in retrospect, it's pretty funny, but Mark and I taught a class about how to build a business.
So you had the CEO of Meta teaching this class to a bunch of um middle school students.
And we got really close to them through that process. We made some really gay
important mentorship connections, uh, for years. We met with them, I think
you know, w we still continue to, even though they've now
at this point graduated from college and
Uh.
You know, have real jobs.
But one of the
the lessons that we taught during that class
that I remember Mark distinctly like writing on the
whiteboard, or not the whiteboard, the actual or the chalk with chalk on a chalkboard.
For the four life lessons.
That was one, and I I kept these for myself as well.
Love yourself.
Two.
Only then could can you truly serve others.
Three, focus on what you can control and four, for those things never give up.
And that was sort of his his life lessons.
Four step.
steps to to how to approach life. Um, and we actually made stickers for these four steps that
the students could actually put on their like composition notebooks as a reminder.
And I think
Obviously that has
has really helped me over time, but I think that
In that you can see some of of what
I think we all see in Mark, for example.
For those things never give up.
He has that that aspect of him and it makes sense. For me, number three is really the hardest, which is focus on what you can control'cause I
I think I probably
think I can control more things than I actually can.
Mm. So do we all.
Uh
I love that he was sharing that in like a class on how to start a business. This like life advice maybe just totally
Oh yeah.
That's amazing.
I wanna chat a bit about so
m at this point Meta is
Eighty six thousand employees, something like that. That's what I found online.
He so he has to run this massive org.
as as as this CO one person
I know that one way that he does this is he has something called the small group. Is that the is that the term?
Yes. Okay, cool.
So he's got this small group that he calls it, and it's essentially his like core execs, and this group meets regularly, and that's kinda how he's able to
Manage the entire org through this small group.
For people that are struggling to
run an increasingly larger org.
Are there any tidbits from how
Mark and the small group operate that might be helpful to folks.
Sure. So I think the first thing is
Um, small group is sort of the leadership team. It's the leaders working on the most important projects at the company.
um sort of independent of reporting structure and stuff. It's like who are the the leaders on the big
On the big
most important projects or functions, they will be represented in small groups.
What makes this group unique? Um a lot of them are people like me
sort of people that have been there for a very long time. So I think sort of the tenure of small group is is really rare.
Um
Why I think that's important is you have a lot of people that are
Motivated by mission.
rather than sort of climbing the the corporate ladder at this point.
And so
There are a lot of what I call disagreeable givers.
So just to back up, I don't know if you've heard this framework, but I l I think I learned this from Adam Grant during like a um executive
um learning and development session. And he was saying that there are
you think of a two by two, there is people who are agreeable and disagreeable.
And then there's people who are givers and takers.
And
the most dangerous kind of person to have in an organization is an agreeable taker.
And what that means is an agreeable person, super nice, everyone likes them, really easy to get along with.
But they're a taker and maybe their motivation is more
self interested rather than what's best for a company for the company, which is is what how I would define a giver.
And the most
The most
the precious person in an organization is the disagreeable giver.
those are the people who are really motivated to do what's best for the company.
But they can they can be a little bit disagreeable in the sense that they may not say what you want to hear. Uh, they may push back on things.
They may fight for things.
And so I think small group is characterized by a lot of
disagreeable givers. Um
And I I think that's really important for an organization.
one thing I think Mark has done really well in general is just have a
Culture, including on his leadership team of
of people who give him feedback. Um, I think a lot of times as you get more successful or as you have more fame or if you have more wealth,
you lose having an accurate feedback loop.
Um
And people may not want to be, you know, a hundred percent honest with you for various reasons. And Mark has
tried to ensure that he himself has an accurate feedback loop or
We as a company have more of an accurate feedback loop.
Um by surrounding
Um, himself and our leadership team and creating a culture of giving
direct and honest feedback. Um
So that is that's, you know, some of the unique properties of small group from a process perspective. We have one
weekly sort of strategic meeting. It's more open ended. There is time for discussion. It's
longer and it sort of more
Unstructured.
We also have one weekly operational meeting, which is highly structured.
Um we are we go through all of the priority projects
the person who owns each of the projects will actually speak to the the weekly updates, um, for that project and and you know
It's very operational and tactical.
Awesome. Uh
I just love the s name small group. It's like such a
It's
Just like a scozy name. It's not like executive staff or easy. All these terms people always use. No, it's just our small group.
Totally.
And then this framework you described, it sounds a lot like radical candor of challenging directly, but caring deeply.
Uh
Yeah.
Constructive and additive. Is that the term what was it? Um
disagreeable, but
Uh a giver.
Gaver, yeah. Yeah.
That's great. Yes.

If there's nothing here, totally cool. But is there something that you
Changed.
Marks.
Mind about it.
Good at
seeing new data and being like, Oh, okay, I see, I see or is anything that
You were successful there. That is an interesting story.
One of the things that
We did.
In the early days.
On the growth team.
Yeah.
'Cause I'm not sure that necessarily
When we talk about this sort of legacy or the the history or the
The lore around the growth team.
And and this may not be a direct answer to the question, but it it didn't really necessarily come from Mark. Mark wasn't like you guys should create a growth team. Here's how you should operate.
And so I think
In some ways we established and grew a growth team and and
Yeah, mark sort of
got on board or or you know, saw the value in it and
Um
ha was was a s a huge proponent of it, but I'm not sure it w necessarily originated with him. And and indeed I think sometimes the focus on
being so data driven.
um might have been something that
You know, myself, Alex Schultz.
Javier Olivon, these are some of the original people that were on the growth team and that are my closest co workers now.
may have really pushed
on and um
highlighted the value of uh four mark.
I'm happy to talk about the growth team, which is something I get asked a lot of questions about if you want. Yeah, I'd love to. That's uh exactly where I was about to segue since you brought that up.
So the Facebook growth team it it's kinda it's a legendary
Team.
I think it was probably the first real growth team in tech. The team developed some of the most core growth levers and techniques that companies use today.
And so I'm really excited to
Chat a bit about this and what you learned from that time.
One thing I wanted to start with is there's this kind of this like legendary activation metric they all had.
Of uh the goal was get
I think it was seven friends in ten days or something like that. Mm-hmm. Is that a real thing? Is that what you guys actually did? Anything more there for folks that are like, Oh, we gotta come up with something like this.
Sure. So yes, seven friends in ten days was a thing. Uh ten friends in fourteen days was also a thing. They're kind of the same thing. They're just different points.
On a retention curve?
I would say the key insight here is
When we started the growth team, I think we were pretty focused on acquisition.
We had a notion, though, of the
Growth accounting, which looks at how many, what's our net growth every day. And that would look at the number of new users that registered.
minus the number of users that actually went stale. So after a 30 day period, that's how we define it. They no longer logged in.
And then plus the number of users that
resurrected, which is after thirty days they came back. And what we found was the churn and resurrection lines were actually much larger.
than the new user line.
Which
implied to us that retention
And driving those two lines was actually our biggest lever to drive net growth. And so while we were focused on acquisition,
A lot of our
Focus shifted.
to be around
engagement and retention.
How do we drive engagement and retention? We look at the variables that correlate most with that outcome. What we found was friending.
And so those those two magic moments having seven friends in in ten days or fourteen.
10 friends in 14 days, really just map to when we feel like your likelihood of being a retained user goes
up because you've seen sort of the value in Facebook. And it kinda makes sense. Like Facebook
It is.
is much more compelling if you have fourteen days.
I have fourteen friends and the other
thing around ten or fourteen days is we want it to happen quickly. We wanted to have you experience the magic moment soon after you had registered on the site to
to, you know, prevent you from
churning and then us having to resurrect you.
Again.
One of the most interesting kind of lessons from this activation metric that people talk about
Like right now everyone's like, Yeah, of course retention is how you
Yeah. But you need to focus on. That's what product market fit is. Like I think right now it's like that's what everyone knows. I love that that was
You guys basically figured that out as one of the first times of like here's how we understand if our product will last and how to grow retention matters most.
And retention cohort curves, I think, was one of the d innovations you all thought about early of just like here's how we track retention, people joining at a certain time, how long do they stick around? Totally. And that was Danny Farrante who who really
came up with the growth accounting framework, which I guess is is quite obvious, but like the plus new, minus uh stale, plus resurrected.
Um
The thing that I
I feel like
you know, may be valuable for PMs and and is one of my naomiisms is
I think what the growth team really pioneered was being data driven and product driven, especially in a area that was historically more of a
business function. So I think
It at that time a lot of the growth in new users was expected to come from like marketing or comms.
Whereas the insight that we had is actually the product is the biggest lever to drive growth. And that means we should have a product and engineering team working on optimizing things like the registration flow, the invite flow, then user onboarding, getting you seven friends in ten days. Um
one of my Naomiisms is really understand, identify, and execute.
That framework came from two thousand and nine where
the growth team at the time it was sort of fledgling and it just started
was
Focused on
Only instrumenting data.
And and Alex often wears a shirt that says
I guess when you can know.
We just didn't have the data that we needed to make informed decisions to know really what were the biggest levers to drive growth.
And so in two thousand nine and January we basically
stop doing anything on our roadmap except data instrumentation. And that's when we
you know, instrumentd every step of the registration flow, instrument every step of the news or onboarding experience. We knew where there was drop off, and so we understood
which allowed us to identify what were the key
opportunities to drive growth and maybe hey, it's like
you know, increasing friending in the
than user experience or
twenty percent drop off on registered users at the email confirmation step. How can we address that? These are the
uh opportunities that we identified.
And then we would execute by building products. So having this data driven, product driven approach to what I think historically was more of a
business responsibility at a company was sort of what the growth team
the special sauce of the growth team, we eventually extended that approach. I think that approach started with the growth team, but
We extended to other areas, um
So for example, one of the products or projects that I took on after growth was social impact.
And instead of what I think a normal company might do, which is start a um
corporate social responsibility wing, we decided, hey, no, we're gonna take a data driven, product driven approach to driving social impact. Instead of having a foundation that's distributing money, we're gonna build a product that actually raises money from our community and
You know.
many years later, we've raised billions of dollars from the community for charity.
So that that's sort of the approach that I think um
is unique about the growth team that expanded to other areas and that I think the the company
you know, in many ways.
has taken to to most of the problems that we face.
That's such a good point and I I almost took that for granted, but
There was such a huge shift.
that y'all started from moving from marketing being the driver of growth
to product and data and experiments and all that stuff.
And so I think that's such a good
Reminder of that.
Fun fact on the social good team. I'm really close friends with the designer that was on that team's name's
She was uh on that team for a while and
Really enjoyed and had and yeah, really enjoyed working with you.
Oh. Oh that's so great. I remember Mickey. What is his last name?
Uh Settler?
Okay. Yes, I definitely remember this. I mean I l yes.
And
Social impact is just one thing that I think I'm really proud of. And again, remember, social impact used to be
a business thing. You would you would create this corporate social responsibility.
part of the company that was very separate from the product and engineering
engineering team. Um another thing that we did in the early days
Was you know?
there was a a juncture where it was like how are we going to translate this site? And I think we could have
Taken.
more of an a non technical, traditional approach and had
professional translators translate the entire site into the different languages and instead sort of what
what the growth team suggested was why don't we build a version of Facebook that allows you to make translations in line and so the community of people using Facebook at the time who actually knew the product the best could actually
insert translations and there's a whole system that we built around how to like up rank the best translations and down rank, you know, sort of like
um Wikipedia and
And to this day we have over a hundred languages supported. So we're always like
product technology solutions to to these
These sort of traditional problems.
I totally remember that where it's like you
Ask your users to help translate the site.
Yes.

I wanna come back real quick to the activation metric because something that's a
a lot of people somewhat misuse and think maybe incorrectly about.
So to come up with an activation metric, as you described, you basically figure out what's like the regression
Of
If someone does X here's retention increases
And so let's focus on getting them there.
A lot of people struggle with coming up with that.
Metric?
Do you have any thoughts on just like how important it was to have that very specific
activation milestone of like seven exact friends in exactly ten days.
versus the value of just having anything.
That is a rallying point for everyone to focus on and drive.
Think the majority of the value is in the latter.
is just having
Extreme clarity around the goal.
Um and
that allowed everybody to work towards optimizing the same goal.
You're right, like we did
sort of just pick a point on the curve.
I think it could have.
been any of those. And and indeed I like as part of preparing for this, I was like, was it seven friends in 10 days? I had to go back and I asked a few people that I worked with back in the day and they were like, well, I thought it was 10 and 14.
I mean, I think at the it it just it doesn't matter, it's just that we picked one of them. Um
And what mattered there was we had the same goal. What mattered was that it was a retention goal or an activation metric.
And um
one of the the most important things that actually came out of having that goal was building a new user experience. Believe it or not,
You know, when we first
launched Facebook or you know, I wasn't around then, but in the early days of when it was just a college site, we didn't need a news or onboarding. We didn't need to explain to people that they had to find their friends.
They were sort of
Automatically
Connected to everyone on the college campus and sort of knew how to use this product. It felt very intuitive. Again, we were college students building a product for other college students.
They were sitting next to each other in libraries or at desks and sort of
through osmosis, understanding how the product worked.
It was more when we um
You know, we launched
The ability for teens to register and then work networks and then
In 2006, open registration, where we started getting all kinds of people with any email address. It was before it was.edu.
Or like a Microsoft dot com email address that
was required in order to sign up for Facebook, then anyone with any mail just could
register including people like my dad and my grandma.
that we realized, wow, in order to get people to this magic moment, how are we gonna do that? What's the most effective way?
That insight resulted in building like a a new user experience. I remember it was just like step one, upload your profile picture. That was really important so people could find you and know who you were.
Step two.
Find your friends. That's where a lot of the
sort of contact importing and people you may know and hear other people at your
school and here are mutual friends.
that step in the news or experience ultimately became one of the most important drivers of that activation metric that we talked about.
I love that you shared that.
Such a recurring theme on this podcast, the power of onboarding.
The value of investing in onboarding and the ripple effects of
Opportunities there.
I love that you also uh kind of like were one of the first like we need like onboarding. That's a thing. Let's invent onboarding users.
I know, I mean I remember the day where it was like do we need to explain to people how to use this?
Is it not obvious and it's like
My dad's like, I don't understand this whatsoever. My dad would go on to become like Facebook's biggest power user, because I always like, you know, beta tested everything with him. But
Yeah, the I there was that was not obvious to us at the time in two thousand and six that we had to explain to people.
How do you use Facebook?

And again, remember that
I it's fun talking about this because obviously the product has evolved so much, but the principles are relatively
The same,
It was thefacebook.com.
eventually it became Facebook dot com, but eventually, you know, we built a mobile app.
Um, and then
You know, it was
Mobile first.
product and then it was about mobile photos and then it was about mobile videos. So over time the technology has really changed, but the
the core use case that we really need to educate people on, which is like how to connect with their friends on
Facebook in whatever iteration or product.
is the same. And so obviously we still have an onboarding today. Um and it's relatively the same principles. Like
Get a profile picture and find your friends.
Along the same lines.
Just maybe a last question around the growth stuff that you worked on.
For folks that are thinking driving growth, working on onboarding, maybe specifically just
Are there any
Lessons from things that work super well.
when you're looking to accelerate growth.
of the Facebook early on that you think people are maybe
Sleeping on as levers and tactics that worked back then that might still be really powerful today.
Well, definitely the understand, identify, execute. I would I would just ask yourselves
do you have the data that you need to know what you need to do on growth? And if not, definitely take the time.
to instrument that data.
The thing that
You know, I
I I think we were relatively lucky.
I talked about why I was bullish on Facebook in two thousand five even.
was because there was product market fit. And so for us growth, you know, I I
As much as
credit as we give to the growth team. I'm actually not sure.
how much credit we deserve and how much incremental growth we drove above and beyond the fact that this was
A product that had product market fit and
We benefited.
in a huge amount from having high demand for the product. So at every step, and I I talked about
The growth team
The projects that we were working on were really
at a high level around removing barriers.
There were macro barriers like
the first project I work with worked on was
was high school students on on Facebook, which is an interesting story in and of itself, because at that time we almost created a separate website called Facebook High, just to keep them separate from the college students.
But at that time we were like, No, this is one
Graph. This is one community.
college students have
friends and people they're connected to of all different ages, why
Byfurcate the graph.
And obviously we've
maintain that principle ever since.
Um
But
It was about removing barriers, so
You had to be a college student, then you had to be a high school student, then you had to be in a work network, then you had to have any email address.
One of the next projects I worked on was not everyone has access to a smartphone.
How can we remove the barrier of having access to a smartphone you and building more of a uh rich Facebook experience for someone that was using a
a feature phone or a lower end device.
Internet dot org, what about removing the barrier of having access to the internet or being able to afford a data plan? And so
That those are the macro barriers that
Thematically, the growth team has worked on what I would say is maybe applicable is really the micro barriers.
All of the work that we did on growth around optimizing the flows were really about removing micro barriers.
One of the things that I
That was just so elegant.
was after we did that two thousand nine instrumentation of all the the flows, the product relevant the product flows relevant to growth.
What we found is twenty percent of people aren't actually confirming their email.
We tried sending them an SMS so maybe they would confirm the SMS.
Instead, the
What we found was a lot of people are actually still clicking on notifications that they're getting, but because it wasn't the specific confirmation email.
We weren't
able to confirm the account.
And so what we did was allow people to get notifications even as an unconfirmed account. And then if they clicked on any of those notifications, that would count as a account confirmation as well, because they proved ownership of the email.
It's just removing a micro barrier of having to like
go find the confirmation email, click it before you can do anything on the site.
So
I do think we've been relatively lucky in having like a lot of high demand that meant that we could focus on just removing micro macro barriers and then on the growth team.
a lot of the iterations and optimizations were about removing
Sort of friction.
I love that framework.
of like micro barriers and macro barriers, just thinking about ways to make this accessible to more people and also just getting
Helping them get through the flow faster.
Uh, I also love your point about how a lot of growth teams get a lot of credit for growing a business when really
In many ways it could have done really well even without that team potentially.
uh because product market fit was so strong. I think about this with Airbnb honestly, it's just such
Like after it gets to a certain point such good product markets fit that who knows?
what would happen if there was no one working on growth, it probably would have been okay for a long time.
Totally. And then
You know, maybe where where we we do sort of see the impact is
is maybe something like the translations thing that we talked about. We
When
the macro barrier, removing the language barrier. And so maybe the approach we took meant that we supported one hundred plus languages instead of whatever the professional translators, you know, there's just sort of we have the long tail of languages. So that last person who's still speaking, you know, our sort of near extinct language can still use
Use Facebook.
Um, but yeah, I I I think that's right. And I sometimes think that maybe some of our efforts were really more on the margin of a bigger trend around product market fit.
Final thing I just wanna highlight again that you said that I think is so important and I've always thought is true, and I love that you confirmed it is that
The activation metric that you all rallied around.
The more
The biggest value of it wasn't this is exactly the right
Regression.
connection to retention. It's more that we have something we are all gonna focus on.
And that is where most of the impact comes from is let's get more people to that point, whether it's
Perfectly right or not. It doesn't really matter.
Yes. Love that.
I think that's really freaking a lot of people'cause they're like, Oh, we don't know if we're gonna be as
perfect about this versus just let's just drive some growth and get people are good enough.
Uh
Thinking on that.
Okay.
Great.
You mentioned Naomi's. I want to segue to that.
So let me first read a a quote. So I asked
Adam Asari.
Who's head of Instagram, What to Ask You. I know you guys work together on a bunch of stuff.
Here's how he described you.
Naomi is called the conductor here at Meta. She has an incredible ability to handle the most complex projects and problems.
And bring the right people together to simplify and solve them.
She is very firm, yet kind.
Her standards are extremely high and she sets the bar.
Also, uh many other people that I messaged said very similar things about you about how you're incredibly good at taking very complex problems and getting shit done. Getting them done. Simplifying them and getting them done. So
I wanna spend some time understanding
what you've learned about how to do this well. What are kind of like the skills you've collected.
That allow you to take really complex problems and get
to a solution.
K stay kind, but firm.
and take on these really hard challenges. So
Maybe just broadly I'm curious.
What are some of these skills that you have built that allow you
To do this.
Yeah, well also that's very kind of Adam.
I adore Adam. Obviously he's
Um
Wanna be
tenured people in small group. Um, and I've actually gotten the opportunity to work even more closely with him than usual.
We recently launched something called Teen Accounts and Adam and I worked very closely on that.
In terms of
how I do the things people say that I can do. Um
I really rely on naomiisms, um
Like I said.
And actually like you like
I I refer your podcast out a lot because there isn't just like a PM university that I can send people to. There isn't like a formal training that people can get to become a product manager.
And that's where Naomians came from. It was stuff that I learned on the job from other people, including from Adam.
that I found myself repeating over and over again.
A good PM looks for a way to make that more efficient. For me, that was writing them down.
Um people started calling them naomiisms. I
started sharing them internally and then I think two years ago I also started sharing them externally.
Adam referred to me as
As
uh a conductor, that's one of the naomisms in my role as head of product.
I
want to educate the PM community about what is PM.
It's the most common question I get from PMs and non PMs.
What do PMs do?
What makes a great PM?
And
What I
say is
A PM is a conductor.
It's as though the um
team that you are a PM on is an orchestra.
There are many different functions in your
team that includes legal policy comms, data analytics, or sorry, analytics, engineering design.
much like there are many different instruments in an orchestra. And as a PM your job is to
Make sure everyone's playing their part correctly. Every section in the orchestra is playing their part.
But at the same time they're
playing together. They're unified in the music that they're producing and that they're
Playing at the right tempo.
And a lot of times
Um I think people use music
Analogies or vocabulary to describe
the work and that includes things like people being in harmony like a good team, a good PM
A good orchestra is in harmony, they're in sync, they're at the right tempo, and
They have the right cadence.
That's sort of how I imagine when a PM does that work
Important characteristics are the piano is not the star of the show.
Indeed.
conductors don't even say anything during the performance.
And also
You know, I but I would at the same time give PMs like little metronomes and um
Conductor wands.
This was something that I used to do when we were smaller, just to sort of take the analogy way too far. That's so funny. He actually gave them conductor ones and convention. Just to wave around. Yeah. I love that. I would love a conductor one.
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So PM.
As conductor is sort of how I describe the the product management function.
Um
But one of the key naomes that I think is really critical
to getting stuff done is what I call extreme clarity.
Um I think our jobs are super hard.
Extreme clarity means everyone's on the same page. It does definitely doesn't mean that they all agree with each other, but they just have the same understanding of the facts. So we can disagree.
But we all believe
you know, in the facts, which is that you know, there's A B C, our options are X, Y, Z.
And here are the trade offs.
You know, one two three.
that kind of
shared understanding is what extreme clarity is. That came from a place of just being in many meetings.
On many emails.
In many situations where I felt like we actually agree on something, the nature of this conflict is a result of misunderstanding.
And that seems like an incredible waste of time. And so we wanna have extreme clarity so we can just focus our
Conversations.
on things when we actually agree, not when we are misunderstanding each other.
There are a lot of tactics that I use to draft. I was gonna ask how do you do that. That sounds great.
How does one get to extreme clarity?
So another Nami isn't canonical everything.
So
That includes canonical nomenclature. I often talk about canonical nomenclature.
One way to ensure extreme clarity is we have the shared vocabulary. I've been in a lot of situations where people are using the same or different words to describe the same or different things, which results in talking past each other.
One of the most egregious examples of this is when
I was working, I was in a conversation around how our reviewers and global operations were performing
And we were using consistency and accuracy interchangeably. Consistency refers to how often re different reviewers agree on the decision. Accuracy refers to
how often the decision is correct according to ground truth.
Those are very different things. We don't want to optimize for consistency because you could be consistently wrong.
Yeah, like we want to optimize for accuracy. And so we that is what canonical nomenclature is, is literally writing out all the words and their definitions. So when we communicate
We're using the same vocabulary.
I really believe in visuals.
I think sometimes just having a conversation or a big meeting where people are talking
I'm just
not very auditory. I'm a very visual person. It's hard for me to follow along just by listening.
I will often have a visual in a meeting.
I will leverage that visual to literally real time edit what is being decided. So for example, if we have multiple options, I will edit the slide that's being projected to say we decided on option one. Here are the next steps, one, two, three.
A lot of times people are saying
That's not what I heard. I heard this as a next step, or I heard that as a next step. I love that.
Because that avoids
leaving the meeting and being like, I don't know what we agreed to. I heard this, you heard that. No, actually we have an agreed upon set of like decisions and next steps that we all real time edited and looked at together.
Just to double tick double click on that one, right? So what you're describing for the visual is
You're presenting here's our options, here's our three options on a slide.
Yes. You all decide we're gonna go with option two. You edit the slide.
With like a star, like here's what we chose.
And then maybe change some stuff.
And
This is exactly to your point of extreme clarity. People can ex see clearly this is what we're choosing if they disagree and don't realize that's what's happening.
It'll be really clear.
Totally.
And
one thing people make fun of me a lot for, but I think is just a great example of extreme clarity is
I never use bulleted lists.
Because you can never refer to a bullet.
I always use numbered lists because you can always
in the visual in a meeting
You know, as referenced in, you know
Number two.
um, you know, I have feedback on that versus like the third bullet, two up from the second, you know, whatever. That is
that is not extreme clarity. So very, very small tactical things to like bigger
bigger things like canonical everything.
Um
But yeah, I can be a little bit more than that. I love that very I love that very tactical tip. That is awesome. That's exactly the stuff I look for.
Uh is there any other very nuanced tip along those lines that
Is helpful.
And
Extreme clarity or canonical everything.
Canonical everything and uh stop me if I'm getting too wonky. I can really
Get into this.
We got a ways to go.
When people when when I had a face versury along the years, people have given me poster and the posters say these naomiism, so extreme clarity is is one.
Canonical everything is another, I think people really associate me with canonical, canonical, canonical.
Um
I always want a canonical doc. This came from a place of like me
I work on a lot of different projects. A lot of times I'm ramping up mid-project. I'm like, where can I learn what I need to learn about this project?
I ask five different people, get five different answers.
That is unacceptable.
Everyone should know exactly where the canonical doc is. That's the one place I can go to to get all the information I need about a project and it will link to all the other docks. Of course, I'm sure there's hundreds of docs associated with the project, but there needs to be one canonical doc.
that canonical doc really has to have the basic information that you need to know.
For any project, the basic information that you need to know is what are the discrete areas of work. I call those work streams. This is pretty obvious.
Who are the owners on those work streams?
So for every work stream
There's an owner. Again, seems pretty obvious. Sometimes it's like I'm like who's working who who's owning this? It's like
people don't know. That's why I think it's very important to have a single threaded owner. We used to call this a directly responsible individual or a throw to choke. We obviously don't say that anymore.
Single threaded owner. Every workstream has a single threaded owner.
Sometimes work streams are really big. You have sub work streams underneath them.
everything canonical needs to recurse. So you should have an owner.
or an STO for the sub work stream.
The other things on the canonical dock are
What is the process by which
the people on this team work together.
I
Hate.
pairwise conversations. I feel like they're a waste of time.
I feel like you could have four conversations with four different people.
Or one conversation with all four people, everyone has the same context. Ideally, there's a visual in that meeting, and you real time edited it, there is extreme clarity.
the canonical doc will have, what is the
Canonical meetings.
that people have.
What is the canonical?
email list that you're gonna use the what is the canonical workplace chat, you know, like
Let's not reinvent the same audience ten different times with like
different permutations of the people on the working team.
Um, we'll just have one canonical chap.
And then often the canonical duck will have the canonical nomenclature.
I really believe in frameworks for things that
Helps drive extreme clarity.
Um
A framework is best understood when there's a visual representation of the framework in my mind. And so we'll have canonical visuals and that's
Sort of what I mean by canonical.
everything. So anytime I start on a new project, everyone knows to send me the canonical doc.
I love this.
If you come into a project that you've given that's really gnarly
And complex. What do you find are the first couple things you do that make a big dent on helping everyone?
A line and
understand what happens.
how to what should what they should be doing and what they should be purchasing.
A lot of times I'm simplifying.
A lot of times there isn't a canonical doc, and so I'll go through the process of creating that. Um
But I think that really falls under the simplification.
Um

often go into a project, everyone's operating at a PhD level. I'm coming in at a kindergarten level. And so I need to
understand it's almost like
all of this complexity, we're at a PhD level. I need to create the curriculum.
Go back to basic building blocks.
for the kindergarten level. How do I explain th and understand this project at a kindergarten level?
It doesn't mean I want to oversimplify. That's not what a simplifier does. They're not oversimplifying, but what they are doing is identifying the most basic building blocks of a complex.
Problem.
And then unfolding
or revealing or building on top of them additional complexity and details.
as you go along. And so
Sometimes I talk about a school pyramid, but like I need to establish the kindergarten curriculum and then the elementary school curriculum and then the high school curriculum and then the college curriculum. And then we can operate at the PhD level. But
oftentimes people at different, you know, on the project are at really different levels of understanding your complexity, and until we have what we call the school pyramid, the curriculums for every level.
of the project. It's really hard.
to it's really hard to make progress.
A lot of times
That
process of simplification will often identify what are the most important things.
um to deal with.
On the project.
And so what I'm hearing is when you come into our project and
You w ha the way you simplify is you start putting together
A doc that describes these things you're talking about. Here's the work streams.
Here's the owners, here's the process, here's our canonical meeting style.
And that reveals here's what matters most and where there's confusion.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah, that is.
And a lot of times
what needs to happen in the project.
Is
Some sometimes there's a strategy or an execution issue.
And sometimes there's a people or a process issue.
I would say eighty percent of the time I think it's a people or process issue and that refers to not having the right people on the project or not having the right people but not having the right process by which they work together.
Um
a strategy or execution issue.
When we get to that
I first try to tackle those or in general I think it's really important to have perfect execution.
I wanna make sure a project is
Perfectly executing because only then can we really really reevaluate whether or not this strategy is right or wrong. We're sort of in the the worst of all worlds where
We are imperfectly executing.
And therefore at the end of the day we
you know, the project might fail, but we don't know why.
Is it because the strategy was right or wrong, or is it because the execution was poor?
The ideal case is the strategy was right and you perfectly executed on it. The next
Best case scenario is the strategy was wrong, but you perfectly executed on it because then you learned the strategy was wrong.
revamp the strategy and
Try again.
You're really tickling the PM part of my brain. I feel like uh most PMs listening are like yes.
Clean documents, really simple processes of one person charge, links to everything.
It just feels good.

Totally.
And I
Again, like sometimes I feel the need to defend that
The process is not for process sake, it's ultimately to help us all move faster.
and work better. So hopefully
that comes through. Um, but I I deeply believe that it is through this
approach.
um that we can move faster and and and I have to pr you you know, you have to prove that.
Nobody wants more process and more meetings and more
But my goal is that with this we're actually simplifying process and getting less meetings and just making things clearer and ultimately moving faster.
I'm gonna read another quote from another one of your co workers, Charles Porch.
He's vice president of Global Partnerships at Instagram and he
Yeah.
Basically said what we've been talking about. Some of the biggest strategic bets and biggest swings Meta has made have had Naomi at the helm.
No one can hurt cats, drive clarity, and get to outcomes more seamlessly.
Then she can.
She's legendary within meta for her canonical documents.
Great.
If maybe just like following the thread a little bit further, what's what's the gnarliest
project that you've worked on that would be a good example of you coming in and helping simplify and get it over
The finish line.
Well
Charles.
you know, maybe thinking of the most recent project that we worked on. I don't know if it's necessarily the gnarliest, but it's definitely one of the most cross functional projects that I've worked on before.
Basically every team at the company in some way works on youth.
And uh last week we actually learned teen accounts.
Which
was um
a very complex project. Again, like it involved the Instagram team, the Central Youth Team.
Um the you know
different teams working on various aspects of this, every function
Legal policy comms marketing.
product, um
And
I think we we definitely leveraged a lot of these um
these naomisms and and just to give you a sense of um
what Teen Accounts is. It was basically
putting all teens into the safest settings um by default on Instagram.
And
The reason I'm working on this, I I work across
um, multiple teams at Facebook. So obviously Adam is
the the head of Instagram and I work closely with him on this, like I was referring to yesterday, but
this is something like these teen accounts is something that we are thinking about how we expand to the other apps that we have, including Facebook and WhatsApp and

And I tend to work on projects that are across our family of apps and future platforms. And that's sort of why I was
I was involved in this but
Basically what Teen Accounts does is put teens in the safest settings. It's super
Focused on trying to address parents' biggest concerns around their teens on social media. This has obviously been a really big topic. We've had a lot of these features and tools. What this launch did is simplify things, standardized things.
and add a lot more functionality that gives parents controls. I think the
The thing you really need to know is
is that
For under sixteen year olds, if they wanna change any of these defaults, they're gonna have to get their parents permission. And so it's
It's interesting that, you know
we're really going to create an incentive for teens to get their parents involved and to actually set up parental supervision, especially because one of the default settings is a private account. So there's tens of millions of teens that currently have public accounts today that we are going to automatically transition to private accounts.
unless they get their parents permission to stay public. And so that's
So relatively big um
shift a fundamental change for how Instagram works. Um
fourteen and
Yeah, I would say one of the more complicated projects that I've worked on.
Yeah, and it just launched, right.
Yes. Um
As a as a new father, I'm excited for you all to be working on these sorts of things. Uh I don't need it yet.
But I'm glad it's gonna be there.
And it's funny how Meta and Facebook is in this world where
Uh people complain about
Teens using
social media and then you work on making the product better.
for teens and kids using social media and then it's like Facebook's where getting teens on social media. Like there's no way to
Make it feel good.
to people, no matter what you do, it's people are gonna complain.
That's what I've got to do.
And
And I think the the goal of this launch was
To orient ourselves and really there's a lot of complaints, there's a lot of
You know
different voices. I think we we just
are focused on parents. We think parents know best. Every kid is different and parents know their their own kid the best. So
that has been our North Star in terms of the the approach here.
When I talk about teen accounts, the as product people, I think one thing that you appreciate is
The thing that I think is really important when it comes to teens on the internet is really
having an understanding of how old someone is.
when they are using our apps.
And
it's important that we know how old they are because then we can put them in an age appropriate experience. So now we have teen accounts, we want to put all teens into
Tina Counts.
We all know sometimes teens lie. That's sort of been the biggest feedback that we've been getting is teens are really smart. They're gonna find workarounds, they're gonna be creative.
They're gonna lie about their age and
As a product person, the way that I think this should really work.
is that instead of
Everyone
Entering, you know, teens use on average 40 apps instead of Instagram and the th other thirty-nine apps that teens use trying to verify the age of the person using their app.
It's for two companies to do this, which is Apple and Google. They do collect the age. They should make that available to developers and
We ask for
information from the device all the time with user consent. You know, can Instagram have access to your camera? Can Instagram have access to your location information?
Uh
should be able to ask, can Instagram have access to your birthday? And that would
I think sort of elegantly from a product perspective, from a simplification perspective, from a privacy preserving perspective, and what's easiest for parents.
that would be the the right product solution to solve this problem around age.
that we're all sort of trying to to grapple with right now. And there's a lot of stuff that we're doing. Part of the reason that this
project was so complicated and I mentioned the age team is like we're building
classifiers to try to predict how old people are based on
Um
not just the age that they've stated, um, but you know, based on
who they're talking to, what kind of content they're looking at, what the age of the people they're connected to is. Do we think that this is actually
an adult like they say, or is it really a teen? And so we're doing a lot to
try to predict age or prevent people from lying about their age, but I think this would be a really big win for the industry.
Uh makes sense to me.
Okay, thank you, Lenny.
Ha ha ha.
So to close out this portion in this chapter of our conversation.
Oh, Naomi Naomiisms.
I know something else that you're really good at that I've heard from a few people is running meetings.
Something that a lot of people always want to get better at.
Uh, any tips? What have you learned about running great meeting?
A meeting is a high
value.
It's high cost, sort of.
Amount of time
And and I want to make sure it's as productive as possible.
Um what I will do is send an agenda twenty four hours prior to the meeting. Um that agenda will include a pre-read.
Um, I've talked to people who if the pre read is not attached to the calendar invite or like associated with the meeting at least twenty four hours in advance, they will cancel the meeting.
Um that just goes to show we want everybody in the meeting to have full context, have read the pre-read.
Often what will happen in the previous twenty four hours is because we're all sending
pre reads on Google Slides. There will be a lot of
conversation and questions that get hashed out leading up to the meeting.
Um
During the meeting, like I said, I
I think it's really important for
a group of people to be looking at something and anchoring people on some on something. If if somebody joins the meeting, say five minutes
Late.
They should know exactly.
where in the agenda you are in the meeting and like what is being discussed based on like catching up from the visual that's being projected.
Um
Usually a meeting
can be and hopefully a meeting is really either
is is a decision meeting. So if there is a decision
I need three options and I need a recommendation that should hopefully help focus the meeting. Um, and then
Like I said,
I will real time edit the visual
such that we
document and have extreme clarity on what is the option that we agreed on and any next steps that we also agreed to.
After the meeting, anyone who wasn't in the meeting, that's fine because
within twenty four hours post meeting.
I will send the notes.
reply all to the
the meeting invite and send the notes.
So m just like tactically
I use the calendar invite as the canonical
Unit?
by which to handle all of this communication, because a lot of times meetings are one offs, there isn't an existing
sort of email or chat thread.
that maps perfectly to the audience of the meeting. So for me that is the meeting or the calendar invite. So I'll click on the calendar invite.
Reply all
Include the pre read.
pre meeting and then um do this like reply all again post meeting twenty four hours with the the notes the decisions and the next steps.
I love this. So many s very specific uh tactics here. Uh I love it. This is uh
Food for my brain.
I love the uh always have three options in a recommendation. That's such a simple thing to recommend, but such a powerful way of operating as a PM. Just like here's the options, here's what I recommend, here's why.
Oh one one thing I forgot that I learned from Guy Rosen. He is our chief security officer is
When you have three options and a recommendation, in terms of evaluating the options, I don't love pros and cons. It's a flat list of text.
Um, it's hard to
You know, just get
A big picture from that.
Oftentimes we'll use a traffic light. That means that the three options are three rows.
The columns in the table will be
criteria by which to evaluate the options. Those could either be functions. So for example,
Five three options as the rose.
Column one could be
the legal perspective, column two could be the policy perspective, column three could be the
Privacy.
Uh
product perspective.
Um, alternatively the columns could map to different criteria like
what we're optimizing for.
So
It could be the user experience, it could be the engineering feasibility, it could be the
you know, internal complexity. Whatever whatever are the criteria should be laid out in the columns.
And then obviously it should be color coded red, yellow, green, based on how it stacks up against those criteria. And what this allows is
To get back to the point of the visual is you can quickly look at the three options, see where's the most red, and and sort of rule that out. Ideally, the recommendation has some
combination of like, you know, the the more green or yellow than the other options. And then obviously
within the cells you can spell out the specific rationale for w for the coloring, but I think this is a really good way to
To run a meeting and just
create extreme clarity around
how you're evaluating the options in a way that like a flat list of pros and cons just doesn't.
What other podcasts would have this level of detail of how to run
Okay.
A discussion on a decision and this is exactly what people want to hear. So I love it.
Says product market fit for listeners of this podcast. I love it. I love it. And
Obviously the reason this is more effective isn't it's not just like here's a quick sentence on the on
the pro and con it's like here's what I actually think if this is good or bad.
Or the things that matter to the business.
That's exactly.
It also gives people a framework to plug into. A lot of times the creation of a pre-read for these discussions involves many different people from many different teams and functions.
If you have a traffic light, they can own filling out their cell. They can own the rationale behind the legal position on option one, two, and three. And
in in general I I'm super into frameworks that allow people to
plug into and and
clearly represent their their point of view.
Oh.
Uh
Final question, completely different topic. I saw a Wall Street Journal story about how you exercise and your exercise regimen and how important that is to your
Life and career. Now most people don't have a Wall Street Journal story about their exercise regimen, especially tech worker.
And I know this is just important to how you
to your work that you
And they wrote that this basically helps you become better at your job.
Any advice there for folks that want to
I don't know, lean in to exercise, exercise more.

Your advice is this actually makes you better at work.
And like
I believe that. People are always like, What are you training for? And I'm like, I'm training for life. Like I
I have four must. Um it is eat, sleep, alone time and exercise. Those are the things that I need in order to perform in the other areas of my life. Um
Seems pretty obvious, but
Um, until recently I actually did not prioritize sleep. My boyfriend is actually super into sleep and we have the eight sleep. We have
eye masks, we have blackout shades, we have like
good sleep hygiene. Um, and so I'm getting much better at that. But exercise is something that I've always been on top of. Alone time is also musty for me because I'm an introvert and I need that time to
to recharge, otherwise I think I get kind of weird around people. Um
In terms of how I prioritize it, I am
It's sort of a non negotiable or table stakes every morning I have to work out. Um
I am also lucky enough to work in an environment where I can wear work out clothes to work, um, which I often do. I think
Working out is sure the hour of the day that I'm doing my exercise, but I also view, like I said
Um, life is is a work out.
performing at work is a workout. I need to be able to move. I need to feel comfortable. It's very physical, I think. Um especially if you're trying to
Really hard to be a conductor and running around with like a metaphorical conductor wand. Um, I need to be able to move.
Um
A while ago and that's what the Wall Street Journal article was about, I set a goal of doing five pull ups. I read
somewhere in an article that less than one percent of women can actually do pull ups.
Think having a goal is really helpful.
That's something that I worked on and I
Anyone can do this, truly, if you train for it. I think it's
potentially more technique uh for me than like strength per se.
And and I worked up towards that goal. Um, I think
Exercise in addition to all of the physical benefits primarily has a mental health benefit, I think, for me.
Um
And it also they're just like a lot of lessons that I think I take from exercise. So for example, I think being able to do five pull ups sort of taught me I can do hard things.
Um
in this sort of really narrow, measurable way, uh, which gave me confidence in other
aspects of my life.
I had a friend who her goal was
Do one push up.
Why not? She's like I want to be able to do one push up and that was the that was really motivating to her. And then she finally got there and then she could do more push ups.
That's awesome.
Yeah.
Similar. Uh I have so many notes here as you were talking. The other is
Uh sleep.
Advice. So iMask, I have an awesome iMask that I'll recommend in the show notes. Please when
Of all the things I've recommended in all the various places, I get the most comments about thank you for this very specific IMAS.
Uh, it changed my life. It's like uh Wawa. It's one Tim Ferris is often recommended. Okay. Uh W A O I'll link to it in the show notes, but it's uh great.
Wow, wow. Let me look it up real quick,'cause people are gonna be like, Oh I gotta get it. Wow I mask.
The one that we have has sort of cushions around the eyes such that it's um you have
It's not flush against your eyes. Yeah, this is the same. Okay. Oh great.
W A O W
W A O A W sleep mask on Amazon. It's thirteen bucks.
And uh
Amazing. My wife and I both sleep with these eye masks.
And it's ridiculous until you're like, Oh, I can't sleep without one now.
Totally. Well, there's a lot of research that even like ambient lighting results in lower quality sleep. So I think that's why the blackout shades and the eye mask just help.
In sure it's truly dark.
Yeah, I I was just watching a podcast and the advice there was even like your uh
You're
Smoke alarm with a little light is too much light.
Like you need to cover that up.
To create real darkness.
And uh
Why not just wear an iMask? You don't have to worry about any of that.
Yeah.
Okay. And then one thing I didn't mention when you're talking about the conductor, uh the PM as a conductor
That's exactly the metaphor I've always used my entire career when people ask me about what is product manager. So we're like Yeah. I have all these slides of like here's the piano with like a symphony and a conductor standing there.
Lenny, do you know how happy that makes me?
Mm.
Because I I feel like sometimes people are like, That sounds crazy, but the I the fact that you actually came to that same conclusion makes me like like why why did
Why?
Why did you come to that conclusion? I'm I'm just curious.
Uh, because as you said, the PM's not like doing the not making the thing, they're just helping

People who are the most talented at their very specific skill do the best possible work.
And
their back is, you know, to the audience. They're kinda trying to stay out of the way. Even though you know they come in everyone
Claps for them. Yeah, it's kinda.
Mm.
Oh. And then in theory they could like step in a little bit to help out when
You need
You know, they can pitch hit on like design here and there and research here and there, probably not engineering.
So those are the kind of the reasons and you know, they're not in charge that
You know, the violin the chairwine violinist is the actual person that making the music and the best at this thing.
It's it's so great to hear somebody else talk about this too. Thank you.
And I I think that
That is really how I view my role.
Um
and what I do, and I think maybe just hearing you talk about it reminded me why I think I put so much emphasis on just elevating the people on my team.
and the people around me and
One of the you know, sort of candidly one of the development areas
For me.
And it it could be sort of downstream because I do have this
analogy of how to be a PM is that
They
the growth feedback or the constructive feedback for me is really learning when to leave from the front more, maybe when to be less of a quiet conductor that's really elevating the first chair violinist. Um
And be more
be more front facing, I think.
a lot of my approach and my leadership style is really um leading through the people on my team and helping
Grow them and
A lot of times I think that, you know, they're dedicated, they're experts, they know, you know, particular areas obviously as a
head of product, I manage a portfolio of different projects of which each of them has the
incredible leader on it. And so
Oftentimes I'm just really trying to lead from behind and help them be as successful as possible. But there are there is a time and a place when when maybe that silent conductor needs to take more of a vocal and and front facing role.
I know exactly what you mean. I had the same problem when I was a PM.
Because there's always this like fear that PM's in charge and telling everyone to do. And so I had the opposite of like okay, and that's not me, I'm like I'm gonna
Just let you do the things you think are best and I'll just
Make sure
the best ideas come to the surface.
And I have to learn exactly the same thing. Sometimes people just want you to
point them in the right direction and make the decision in the end and
The best PMs are people that have the best opinions about
what is gonna work, have intuition of
What
users need, have strong product sense and all that stuff.
I've had this post that I'm trying to work on along these lines where there's this
kind of reaction to PMs aren't the CO of the product. They're just you know, like no, don't call yourselves that. I think it's the opposite. I think PMs actually should think of themselves as the CO of the product.
Not in terms of date.
you know charge and can fire people and manage people, but
They're the closest
heuristic for what the CEO and the founder wants.
They think of what does the business need?
What is gonna help?
the user the customers, what's gonna help us grow. And I think the PM is the closest to that.
role. And so I think it's important to think of that role as that.
Even though you're not, you know, technically in charge.
Yeah, and maybe
Maybe you could call it something different, but I I totally agree with that sentiment. I think there was some
I think we were trying to
you know, push against the
criticism that like PMs were sort of bossing everybody around and like, um but I I actually there's baggage there. There's baggage. There's I I call it there is something called the great
Non technical.
Sort of
There was a period of time at Facebook where I think
Wait, the
The PMs really had to prove their value to the engineers and show that we were actually not slowing things down with all this extra process. You can imagine an engineer hearing me talk about like how to run a meeting and all the canonical docs and just be like
What?
The sounds terrible.
Um
So yeah, they're we had to prove that. But
I really I really like
I actually do think the PM is the closest to really channeling what the CEO or the founder
Um
Once and another thing that I've
Worked on.
that I am working on is really developing a much stronger first party person.
Like
It's not enough for the PM to run this people in process that we talked about. Obviously, I I love that stuff. I lean that that way, but
At the end of the day, the
A PM cannot like outsource their
perspective or delegate their
You know
Their thinking
through people in process. And so for me
That has been a learning curve and
I am trying to
As someone who's very like
sort of
consensus driven. I want to hear all the different opinions from all the different people.
I can still do that. I can still
through people in process talk to all the different
uh folks working on a project, hear their first party perspectives.
and then use all of that to synthesize my own because it will be unique given my role on the team and just sort of what I'm trying to optimize for. Um, and really make sure that I
but develop that first party opinion and communicate it clearly.
And and
Like you said, the best PMs I think can do it all.
Just to follow this thread one thread further, because this is something I think a lot of product managers work on and are told.
to work on is there anything you found to be helpful in building this skill in yourself?
That might be helpful to folks that are working on it.
I'm lucky enough.
Because I sort of have a big team.
I have someone who helps me schedule my time.
And I used to gold that person.
and goal our work together on just being as efficient as possible. But now what I am goaling that person and and what we're
trying to accomplish here is
Giving me as much time to
develop a first party point of view. And so
Sort of how do I
What what is the most effective way?
to do that. And for me it is
Having you know
two to three hour blocks of time where I can actually sit, think
Have space?
But maybe something that's different about me than other people is it's very, very helpful for me to talk to maybe one or two people. Not be in a big meeting with like forty people.
sort of trusted.
people I ha I have an incredible person on my team that
I talk to that I think
Really helps me.
clarify my thinking. Um and so
to go back to the beginning, just I'm I'm trying to find blocks in my day that I can I can spend time thinking and also within those blocks, they don't have to be alone time. They can also be scheduling sort of my chief of staff and like my head of data to bounce off of as a sounding board because that is the process that I know works best for me in terms of really developing a first party perspective.
Such a good tip.
Like it makes sense if you're just spending all your day coordinating
In meetings.
Uh checking things, reviewing things, uh
You have no time to actually
Think
about what you think is the right move and answer and strategy and
Next step. And so
That's a really good tip.
If you're finding that you're just spinning that you don't have time to think about
what you think is the right solution and the right strategy and the right product decision.
Fine, just block time.
to think about the stuff. I always
Try to
Uh I have these deep work slots on my calendar. I've written about this a few times.
where it's three hours and the invite
I don't know if you can do this these days, but it was just
If you book time during the slot, I will slap you.
Ha
Nobody.
And
You know, I think
For me.
Some people
might need three hours on their own. I think for me
I don't know about you.
talking things through with one or two people really helps me as well. So sometimes it was it was almost like
quite challenging for me to think of going into a room by myself for three hours and then I was just gonna like figure it out on my own. This is like a
And and I don't know how I
you know, how people help people think strategically the best. Um, but it doesn't have to necessarily be alone.
That's a great tip. Just have a sparring partner, someone like is just interested in exploring ideas and
Not just
Uh
have a clear agenda.
I love that.
Okay. Naomi, I love this tangent we went on as we were wrapping up. It was amazing. There was a lot of good stuff.
That we covered there.
But I know you have to run. So before we get to our very exciting lightning round, is there anything else that we haven't covered that you wanted to cover?
Or share.
I think honestly, I think I just did it. I didn't even realize I wanted to talk about that, but it just all came out.
I love it. I love that. Those are the best nuggets.
With that we reached our very exciting lightning round. Are you ready?
I'm ready.
First question.
What are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?
I really love narrative nonfiction, so I like the Eric Larson books. They're a very compelling
And page turning way to learn about history.
Um, I recently read Devil in the White City.
And um there is also one about Churchill's first year.
by Eric Larson. Um another book that you know, just the canonical the canonical book that I
often recommend is sapiens. I think he's a great example of what we talk about when we s talk about simplifiers.
He took a very complex subject, which is all of human history, and tried to
Pull out the nuggets.
you know, I think his thesis that
What differentiates
Humans from other forms of life is really our ability to tell
and believe in myths or stories, and he
cites money and religion as examples. Um, but also there's a graphic version, graphic novel version of Sapiens. And so he almost has like the PhD level
And then he literally has like the high school level, which is a graphic novel version. He also has like
Unstoppable Us, which I think is a kids version. And so
Clearly here is someone who is a m a master. There's like a James Clear
um, thing that a friend Shirley told me about where it's like if you're a beginner, you have like ignorant
Simplicity, an intermediate has like functional complexity, and then like a master of a topic has profound simplicity. And that's what I feel like Noah Y Ball Harari really has because he can go.
all the way up and down the school pyramid in terms of explaining this really complex topic.
What I heard about him is that
He goes on a a one month meditation retreat every year.
Where it's just him silent meditation retreat.
And people ask him, How do you have time to do that when you have so much work to do? He's like, The only way I'm able to achieve
these books where I synthesize all of human history into a story is because I do that, because I can clear my mind and
And just
The
and many to our previous conversation, that is how he himself
And like is best. That's what he needs to do. You know, I might need two to three hours a day in a sparring partner. No, you've already needs a month in silent meditation.
Great point. Everyone has their own.

Uh
On Devil in the White City, uh fun fact, when I read that, I was like
I need to go to Chicago and see the stuff that they wrote about in this
book about the world's fair and so I I went to Chicago and You did? Because of that book.
Yes.
Wow. Have you read The Splendid in the Vial?
Yes, that was the the uh about the telegram, right? Yeah, right.
Oh no, there's Thrill's first year. But um you know, he has like six books. I haven't read all of them. Okay. I think it was either that one or something about a telegram. I did read it was less good, though, is what I find. I found the devil in the lake city was the best.
Was the best.
Uh amazing. Okay, we'll keep going.
Second question, do you have a favorite movie or TV show you've recently watched that you really enjoyed?
We just watched Shogun. I thought it was really good. Have you seen it?
I have, uh yes, I loved it. Very uh gruesome.
But amazing.
Yeah.
Yeah, it was I had to cover my eyes for some of it. And then we also the movie that we just watched was June 2. Chris Cox, who's our chief product officer, actually recommended that as one of the
you know, best films that he's seen recently, and I really trust his opinion on that. So we
Caught up by watching Dune One and then
Watch Dune Two, and it was really good.
I watched that in IMAX theater in San Francisco. There's like insanely large screen and
I would recommend that. I don't know if the I don't think it's still out there.
Yeah, lady's ridiculous. Amazing.
Um I think there's another one coming someday. Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Tune three.
Dune three. I'll jump just yeah, just keep'em coming.

Next question. Do you have a favorite product you recently discovered that you really love?
So
Well I'm gonna check out that
I'm asked that you recommended the Wa Wo thing.
But
I know it it's super expensive, but
Have you tried the eight sleep?
I have my wife
Uh doesn't love it. She doesn't like the no it's like a very slight noise when it
you know, starts up but she wakes her up, so we don't have it anymore.
I yeah, and
I noticed that too. I think maybe the the late they just released like the latest edition. Um
One of the features that is the killer feature for me is that it does a vibrating alarm so that when I wake up
At
Six AM, I do not wake up everyone in the house at six AM. And so it's just it's a thermal alarm. It
Makes the
Bad.
on my side hotter and it also slightly vibrates underneath my ear to wake me up.
It's under your ear? I remember vibrating the whole thing whole part of the bed. I wonder if that's a new feature. Maybe this is like your
I'm on version three. Maybe there's a version four. I don't know. Maybe that was version one. Yeah. That's so funny.
Um
A nice thing about my life right now is that because I have no meetings or boss, I don't need an alarm.
However
It's amazing. However, we have a young kid and he wakes up at six to six thirty, so that's my alarm usually.
Oh, and then the other thing I wanted to mention, um, I don't know if you have this problem, but I'm like
I'm trying to get like a hundred grams of protein every day. I think a lot of my friends and I are sort of
you know, focused on protein consumption right now and so
My trainer who helped me actually do the pull ups and the push ups.
um started a protein uh protein
Powder.
company, protein products company called Pro Mix that I really love. And he has like this rice crispy treat thing that I usually eat every morning and gives me fifteen grams of protein. I just bought that
What?
Yes. I was reading Kevin Rose had a
His favorite
His like health stack and uh
I don't know if that's the brand, but it's exactly a rice crispy thing with fifteen grams of protein. So I'm pretty sure that's it.
pretty sure that's it because the rice crispy pee part of it is is very unique. So let me let me know what you think. I really like the chocolate chip flavor.
And I just saw a funny TikTok where it's like I never thought when I'd grow up and be an adult I'd be thinking thinking so often about protein and how much protein I should be eating.

Maybe is this the
Maybe this is forty. I don't know. I just I'm not sure for me, but yes, I've been thinking a lot about protein. The other thing I I really like is canned seafood, which has a lot of protein. Um, so something called fish wife has like
It's just sort of um
Hipster.
Like cute.
Yes, my wife gets those.
Uh another protein tip.
Uh yeah.
They were a former sponsor, but no longer, but it's an amazing protein tip.
Uh Maui Nui venison.
Uh beef sticks. It's ten grams of protein and it's a delicious venison.
Heavy.
Thank you.
Look at what we've become, Lenny. Just seem obsessed.
Just gonna be so protein rich.
Amazing.
Okay. What else we got here? Okay, two more questions.
You have a favorite life motto that you often come back to and find helpful in work or in life?
Last month we were watching the
Or or I guess like two weeks ago we were watching the U S open.
And
We discovered that as the
People.
Come through the hallway to
Come on to the court to
Play.
The players all past the Billy Jean King.

And I really loved that because I think
Just sort of with
But
Teen accounts launch, um
And
just like a lot of the more public facing stuff that I've done recently. I I do like we talked about
get um nervous and
I think pressure is privilege just reminds me that a lot of this stuff is a really incredible opportunity that I
That I have and
to be grateful for it. I can still be nervous, but also recognize
Um and be grateful for it.
I love that. Just the
Remind yourself that you're lucky to be feeling this pressure because that means something is important.
Slightly different version of that is uh Zuck.
at the event in the Chase Center that you were also at had the shirt that said
Learning through suffering.
Learning through suffering.
Okay.
Learning through suffering. I I really
I like that one too.
Yeah.
I mean it's been I think he was you know, he spoke a little bit about this. Being an entrepreneur is really, really hard.
Yeah. They had uh the Jensen line about how people asked him if he'd start NVD again.
And his answer was like, If I knew how insanely hard and stressful this was, I would not

Very very honest.
Okay, last question.
So Charles, your former colleague, told me that
You're an incredible surfer.
Oh.
Now you design your life almost around where and when you can go surf.
Yeah.
Any story or lesson or
I don't know.
Surfing.
And the impact that's out on you.
Lessons about surfing.
So, um I think surfing and life have a lot of parallels.
It is an incredibly mental sport for me, and
um, the biggest thing that I can do to improve my surfing is to improve my confidence. And so when I'm going for a wave,
a lot of times I will hesitate or pull back or
You know.
instead the best thing that you can actually do in that situation
is stand up into your fear. Like is to to ride the wave. That is the safest thing you can do. That is the
you know, thing that you're actually supposed to do. But on every dimension that's the right thing. And so
It's almost I guess the motto there is stand up into the fear, um, when you're going you're about to catch a wave.
Um, and actually the things that you can
Do when you're afraid,
For example, like I said, pull back or like throw your board.
are actually quite counterproductive and actually unsafe and could lead to more more injury and so
It's just another reminder that um you really need to commit

And stand up into your fear.
I love it. Stand up into your fear and pressure is a privilege and learning through suffering.
Naomi, this was so much fun. I'm so happy that you agreed to do this.
Two final questions?
Where can folks find you a line where they find naomiisms and anything else you want to point folks to?
And how can listeners be useful to you?
So um believe it or not, I have Naomi.com. I know Boz has baz.com.
I bought that um URL I think maybe twenty years ago, fifteen to twenty years ago from a farmer actually whose name was Naomi.
And or whose wife's name was Naomi rather, and his wife was not using it. And so
They got it for
Quite quite a steal and
I will just say that I've had
other fa like, you know, famous Naomi is much more famous than uh much more well known than I who would who would like to have Naomi dot com make offers for this URL but I
I really like having um just sort of a home on the internet where I can put my Naomiisms. They're also available on Instagram, Naomi Glight.
Um, how can listeners be useful to you? I think Lenny, I
mentioned this before we got on the call. I don't tend to do that much sort of public speaking or talking about naomi as I did
Some of it two years ago when we first launched, but um
I as a result of being on the podcast and stuff would love to
do more of this. And so I think any feedback on what listeners would like to see or hear from me, questions that
But sort of give me a reason.
Where I felt like um
It would be useful.
for me to to do more on naomims would be super helpful.
Sweet. So if you have any of those, leave'em in the YouTube comments is usually the easiest place for folks to leave that.
Naomi, thank you so much for being here. This was so much fun.
Thank you, Lenny.
Bye, everyone.
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