Rick Steves' Europe: Rick Steves (2021)

0:06 So you know. I'm actually old enough to remember what it was like to travel overseas with just a guidebo to get around. No smartphones, no GPS, no easy internet, no influencers telling us what we were supposed to do, no long lines at gelato shops. Anyway, for those of you who remember that time and especially for those of you who don't, this episode is for you. And we first ran it back in the spring of twenty twenty one. Enjoy.

0:38 Did you sit down and say, Okay, this is the strategy. We're gonna create a travel business and we're gonna do all these different things. Or Do the things that eventually h happen kind of just happen haphazardly? I never really wanted to look in the book and say, Oh, now you have a C O O Now you have a C F O I don't even know what that stuff is until it becomes apparent, Oh, we need a guy to do this and then they go, Yeah That's called a a a a CFO. We're just kinda going, Oh, that's why they have that.

1:15 Welcome to How I Built This, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements. The built. I'm Guy Raz, and on the show today. how Rick Steves backpacked around Europe on bread and jam and a few dollars a day. And turned his passion for no frills travel

1:37 into a one hundred million dollar brand. Giving your products away for free? Doesn't sound like a winning business strategy. In fact, it's one reason why most regional newspapers in America collapsed when media first went digital. Because at the dawn of the internet age,

2:01 Most newspapers made their content available online for free. And lots of subscribers wondered, why am I paying when I could just read it on the internet for nothing? It's an old truism. Once you start to give away your core product, People don't place as much value on it.

2:19 Except when that truism is false. Like Remember a few years ago we had an episode about the rapper Logic and his manager Chris Zarew? Logic spent the first several years of his career giving his music away for free.

2:35 Free downloads online. But that free music made its way into the hands of a small and loyal following. People who would pay to see Logic perform those songs at a venue. And over time, that following grew. until thousands of people would turn out to see him live.

2:53 And when Logic finally released his first major label album in two thousand fourteen, After years of giving his music away, The record shot right to the top of the charts. This approach is actually how Rick Steves created a$100 million travel business. Rick has spent much of his career giving away travel tips, information, videos, and audio tours.

3:19 For free. But his brand is so trusted. considered so authentic by millions of people, that his travel guides are among the best selling of all time. And before the pandemic hit

3:32 thirty thousand people a year went on tours organized by his company, called, not surprisingly, Rick Steve's Europe. And Rick's done this by being well. Himself. a super nerdy, super earnest tour guide

3:49 Who visits popular sites around Europe? On the cheap. His public television show is so recognizable. That ricks up there with PBS icons like Big Bird or Bob Ross or LeVar Burton or Arthur the Hardvark.

4:05 And what's remarkable about Rick's story is He never planned on building a huge business. He caught the travel bug as a fourteen year old when he tagged along with his parents on a business trip to Europe. Rick mainly grew up in the town where he still lives. Edmonds Washington.

4:23 As kids, he and his sisters spent a lot of time camping with their parents and being active members of the Lutheran church. I would go to church not every Sunday and uh I do remember it was kind of embarrassing. We'd go to church and then after communion we would We would go up there and have our the wine and the and the wafer and then we would as a family we would walk straight out of the church. It's like Thank you, that was tasty and then we'd walk to the car and we'd go camping. Um and uh it was like that was when I think back on it. kind of a a a not a very polite way to to go to church. But um you know my my parents were um juggling a lot of things and they they wanted to have their cake and

5:02 had their community and and vacation too. Uh but yeah, we we grew up, um I mean now I'm I love the whole Lutheran style of Christianity. Um but back then it was just um you know It's who your parents and your grandparents were. So you know, we we were Lutherans. Yeah.

5:19 Yeah. Tell me a a little bit about your parents. I know that your dad Was Oh they had like a a a piano repair and import importing store in Edmonds. Tell me tell me about that. Yeah, my dad was a piano tuner. He was the go to guy in Seattle for

5:34 For your country. pianists and so on. And uh an old German guy said, uh Steves, you should import the finest pianos in the world from Germany. So my dad thought, well, that's interesting. And uh he went to the piano fair in Frankfurt and made connections with the great piano makers and um He decided to import pianos. And I remember when I was a kid, it was just Um that was w what we were all excited about. I I couldn't step into a A home without

6:00 lifting up the fallboard and seeing what the name was on the above the keyboard for that piano. And um you know, I knew the Beatles paid a blutner and uh each piano has a different personality. Even to this day, you know, I I I can't go into a a a building in Europe when I'm traveling if I see a piano without checking out the name of it, or I squint to see, you know, at the on the on the T V special what piano that person playing. And presumably you You played piano, you grew up. I mean it was that wasn't an option. Um and um Uh it's interesting. My dad made me play the piano, my mom listened to musical. You know, so that was a big part of

6:35 My childhood. And uh I remember one day um I came from home from school and my dad said, Son, we're going to Europe to see the piano factories. And I thought Dad, that's a silly idea, but uh it was actually the the be uh what opened up my world. So Hourteen.

6:51 Take you to Europe for This trip and this This trip really I guess was like a was revelatory, right? Like y d what what do you remember about how that trip made you think about the world. I mean you're only fourteen, so you're still a kid. Yeah.

7:09 My very first Moments over there. Just stepping out of the hotel on my very first morning in the Netherlands. And there was a stop sign in front of this little town in the Netherlands and uh All the people had bicycles with with racks on the front of the bicycles and in every rack there was a set of wooden shoes.

7:27 And they're all peddling out to the farm where they were gonna work in the farm with their wooden shoes for a practical purpose. Not for tourism. But because you needed wooden shoes to to walk around in the soggy bug. I mean, were you were you curious and excited about everything you saw, were you were were you more like a typical fourteen year old kid where you were kinda bored with some of the museums and things like that. I was a fourteen year old with a bad attitude. Then I got over there and I've always Navigated. I I navigated childhood with a pragmatic understanding that things go better if you're not fighting your parents. You know, and I just thought, okay, I'm gonna make the best of this. And then I was uh always into stuff. I remember I I had no money at all.

8:08 But I was collecting things. I would collect bottle caps because in Europe when you have a bottle cap it says what city it was uh bottled in. So I'd have all these uh exotic bottle caps, beer or soft drinks with where it was bottled and I collected that I collected matchbooks, I collected sugar cubes, uh you know, and I I also was a businessman. I would Uh guy, it's it's kind of when I think back on it, funny'cause I found the the most incredible business for a fourteen year old because I was a coin collector.

8:35 Coins sold in Seattle in the sixties, foreign coins for three cents apiece, you know, in the in the in the coin markets. If it was a German coin or a Norwegian coin. So I could buy fifty two Groschen coins for a nickel. And bring'em home and sell'em for three cents each. That is a markup man. There is a a photograph of you.

8:56 It's you Your mom, your dad, and I think a s uh little sister. And um you are you've got shaggy long hair and big glasses, and it's a photo of your family in Europe. And this was, I guess Nineteen sixty nine, the summer of sixty nine. That was my mom and my dad and a a a a piano salesman who took care of us from Bürzendorfer in Vienna.

9:21 And an an old man we met and it was Sunday and we went to this little village And uh we dropped in on the church and after the the mass everybody It it just felt like it was an old Wild West scene. Everybody was wearing black and top hats and long mustaches and everybody walked across the dusty square, past the fountain, over to the wine garden. And they would have drink their wine and they would uh smear. Lard on rustic bread, and uh

9:48 And tell stories. And it was multi generational. And to me That was That was probably one of the eye opening things that I thought this world is. is just inviting me to to open up to it and explore and And I remember m this old guy he looked like a caricature out of some

10:05 um silent movie. Uh he had a big handlebar mustache and a fancy carved pipe. And um he was telling stories about how he witnessed the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand in nineteen fourteen that kicked off World War One. And um he was old enough to have witnessed it and I was just wide eyed. And I was right on the border of uh the the communist world, right there between Austria and Hungary. And uh Oh gee, it was It was uh

10:34 It was a it was a cauldron. It was a whirlpool of culture and history. And had my parents not taken me to Europe, you know, I I just would uh not had that dimension to my world. And of course that was just the the first of what would be m many more like Like dozens more uh trips to Europe. Yeah. And um I remember on the The next trip to Europe.

10:54 I was in a in the train station in Copenhagen, going between the piano factories in Germany and the relatives in Norway. And I saw these backpackers, and this was back in a time when literally A sixteen year old kid. in the United States.

11:07 could be on his mother's passport. My I didn't have a passport. My mom had a passport with two photographs on it. It was her and her son. So I was the second this is a second family trip. Yeah, two years later. And I was sixteen, so I don't know, that would have been Tenth. And um I remember s I was in the In the train station with my parents.

11:26 And I saw these kids. This was a really a Eureka moment for me. 'Cause I was literally Legally. chained to my mom to travel. Yeah.

11:36 And then I saw these kids with backpacks with the European equivalent of a Urail pass, an interrail pass. And They were free as the whip. And they had no parents in sight. And I remember looking at the destination board.

11:50 uh in that old fashioned Copenhagen train station which me which to me is sort of a It's sort of almost a mecca of of travelers to go into these tra old train stations. And I'm going to go to the board. Yeah, those letters flipping. Tit, ticket ticket ticket. Berlin or Stockholm or Amsterdam and I saw those kids. And I looked over at my mom and dad and I thought, I don't need you guys for this. The world can be my playground. And I vowed right then in the Copenhagen train station that I would go back to Europe.

12:17 every year after I graduated from high school. And I have. So that was quite a commitment, quite a A vision. And I didn't have any intention of making a business out of it. This is just what I did in the summer. It was just fun. So the day I guess the like the day after your you graduated high school, this is nineteen seventy three, you did. You went on a a solo dr or you went with a friend, I guess, um to Europe. You were eighteen, right? And you were there

12:43 Pretty much all summer traveling around Europe. That was a hardcore trip. That was the best trip of my life and uh I wanted to go to Europe. I was gonna I was hell bent on going to Europe and my parents said um Well, you gotta have a buddy to go with you. And uh and they said you gotta send home postcards so if you disappear we know where you are and we can come and find you. And how did you Uh how did you pay for it? How how did you how did you

13:05 I I remember I used to I had a um I had a jar on the mantle. in my parents in in our home. And it said, Send a poor boy to Europe. And every time guests would come over, they would um I would tr try to

13:20 You know, beg a little money, but I was a piano teacher. And I I was making good money as a piano teacher. I mean I think I made Six dollars for a half hour lesson and that was really good money. Um But back then you could go to Europe really cheap. You could you could fly to Europe for a few hundred dollars, you could get a year rail pass, a student year rail pass for I think it was two hundred and fifty dollars and we lived on

13:42 I mean that was that was a time where the the one of the most famous guidebooks for Americans was was Arthur Frommer's Europe on five dollars a day. And were you living you were living on that or even less than that? Yeah. How do you live on I mean nineteen seventy three I get it, it's a d but s how do you live on less than five dollars a day in Europe, even in nineteen seventy three? You know I guy, I've got the journals for this. I was a a a journal writing fiend. I wrote Every day. Even when I was fourteen years old.

14:16 uh what the weather was like, how much money I had in my in my money belt, um, you know, what food I ate. And uh I can trace every day I was in Europe for Every year and until I got wrapped up in my business much later when I didn't have the energy, the bandwidth to do that. And You know, when I was eighteen my buddy Gene and I

14:34 We would have a game would see how many hours we could go without spending any money. I mean when we were sightseeing if it we'd go right up to the door and if it cost We'd find a way to sneak in the back door. And we would we would visit it. We would buy a single room in a hotel and I'd sleep on the floor.

14:50 Once a week we'd put all of our money on the bed. And we'd count up the money and we'd divide how many days we had left, and we'd say, Oh no, we've we're slipping down below two dollars a day, we've got to really tighten up. Um and then we went home after that trip. With no money. And we went from the Frankfurt Youth Hostel out to the airport.

15:08 on an expired rail pass. It was frightening. I the conduct we were really good at stowing away on boat on on trains and boats and uh And the conductors were coming from either end of the train. And we knew we were just going to the suburban airport. So

15:22 You know, they were it was like two collapsing walls with those spikes on it, like in Batman and Superman. And um they they were coming closer and closer on the left and the right, and we were just let's get to the airport. And just in time we got to the airport, the door opened and we popped out um before the conductors. Before they could see your expired rail. And uh it was and I came home and I was I was sick. I was What the doctor called chronically undernourished or chronically fatigued. Um Nutrition I would eat bread and jam.

15:56 We had a One of our theme songs, Codachrome, was a big hit that year by Paul Simon. I don't know if you remember that, you know. Can I sing it I'll sing it a little if I can remember it. But um Mama don't take my codachrome away. So it was like um W when I think back on all the crap I ate in Europe, it's a wonder I am here at all, although my lack of good nutrition never hurt me none. I got maggots on my stomach wall bread and jam. You know, I we went over there and and uh I often think back, why was that trip so great? And that crip trip was so great because it was a challenge, because every penny mattered, because everything was new, because we were totally on our own. And uh and it was just a beautiful part of growing up.

16:41 I remember that feeling too, when I'cause I traveled around Europe in in around nineteen, twenty years old and And that feeling when you when you do that on your own. and you have to make all these choices and decisions and and you do you you come back A changed person. It's it's it really is transformational. Yeah. And uh even as a teenager.

16:59 I I was aware of that. And uh you know, I I often think if the world was smart they would establish a fund and give every American kid a little gapier trip, and it seems extravagant, but it'd be a small price to pay. to get Americans out of their home and into the rest of the world and realize this world's a beautiful place and it's worth the being part of. Yeah. You know, when if you grow up in the United States you think the world's a pyramid with the United States on top and everybody else trying to figure it out. And you get over there and and you realize No. Uh they they like their style of life and they've got

17:28 They've got different dreams. They they don't have the American dream. They've got the the Bulgarian dream. And and these are these are revelations I had as a teenage traveler that are still integral to the talks that I give today. So you you take that trip. And you come back to to Edmunds and you start college, you go to the University of Washington. And what was your I mean

17:52 At that point you're still, you know, young, eighteen, nineteen, twenty. But did you ha did you start to think, um I think I just was very happy to be a piano. teacher. I love teaching piano. Um I had a studio. So I was a little businessman. I had the studio next to my parents' piano store.

18:14 paid two hundred dollars a month for the rent. We had a recital hall where twice a year the kids would do their recitals and I bought a coffee machine where I could actually serve coffee and styrofoam cups to all the parents. And it was just for me I was just like so happy to do that. And the kids wouldn't practice in the summer, so I'm just gonna go to Europe. I'll see you in the fall. Life was gonna be simple and sweet like that. And um Then I thought, Well, I should get something practical so I got a business degree also. So I got a history degree for'cause I love that and business degree'cause I thought it would be practical. Um but I had no No thought about m turning my my love of travel into a business. I but but then, you know, uh things unfolded.

18:51 I read that while you were still in college, um There was something called the Experimental College, which I think is still around. Wh some universities have it, and it's basically free classes for for k people in the community. And you started to Uh you start to offer a class called Travel Europe. Cheap. Yeah. Which I'm I'm assuming this is free. You would just give these lectures for free. No, not quite, but almost, you know. That was the turning point for me.

19:15 It was I was in the dorm. And I just I love when I look back on it, I just love um teaching things I love. I teach piano and I teach travel. Um And um I would spend a lot of time at lunch helping people plan their trips and I was the local expert in the dorm.

19:31 I remember You know, I remember I took a class about taking the hippie trail from Kathmandu to uh no from Istanbul to Kathmandu. That was what the ultimate backpacker trip back. You taught a class or you took No, I took the class.

19:48 And And I there's no good information back then. Today we have a glut of information, but back then, you know, you just didn't have much information. This guy had information. I signed up for his class and there was like fifteen of us there dreaming about, you know, just you know, just like Wide eyed. He's done this trip from Stanbull to Katmandu over Kyber Pass, you know. Yeah. And he was just too cool for school. He just didn't prepare, he didn't care about our trip, he had the information, but he didn't give it to us.

20:18 And it really It really frustrated me. And at that moment I realized If somebody has travel experience and other people need it It's wrong not to be well organized and and share it in a in a artful careful, practical way.

20:34 And I thought, you know, I could do the same thing and I could really help people. So I put together this class. And it was I just it was sort of a lark, you know, it's just this goofy college where people teach you how to fix your bike or how to build a log cabin or how to forage and eat snails and all this kind of stuff. And And um I was teaching a class called European Travel Cheap. And I remember I'm not gonna mince words. This is European travel cheap. That's all it is. How we're gonna afford to go to Europe. And um

21:02 It was a six Wednesday class or something like that. And I I thought I'd get twenty kids from the dorm signing up. I had a hundred of their parents signing up. And um I I just remember holy cow, I've I've struck something here. There's th these are not the students, these are the parents. And I I left the dorm

21:19 I was trained to be very efficient. I knew it would cost eight dollars for the class. And I thought, okay, I better And t I don't wanna have a a backlog because of lack of change, you know. So I went I remember I actually went to the class with with like a hundred two dollar bills.

21:43 And I For me. as a as a kid in the dorm. Eight hundred dollars, that paid for my My flight and my rail pass for next summer's trip.

21:52 And by the way, Rick, what how How detailed were you going into in these classes? Was it like here's how you get to Europe, here's where you stay, here's or or or was it I I would sit on a on a table facing the group in the c in the s in the classroom and I had a slideshow. I had my slide projector and I showed slides. And I I remember I could Uh it was two After a while it got

22:15 I I mean I was teaching all the time. I was just a teaching maniac. I would teach all Saturday. I would give the that six week course in a one Saturday session because people from out of out of s out of town wanted to take it and they couldn't come every Wednesday night. So they would drive in and and I would um teach it from nine till five with an hour break for lunch. And I could keep a hundred people into a packed little hotel ballroom. All day long. Um

22:38 And um And it was I got better and better at it. And I experimented with the delivery uh time after time how I would teach this and how I'd get the points across. And eventually. Um

22:51 My uh uh my mom's sister, my aunt said You should write a book. I thought that's so stupid. And then I uh but then I thought, Well, wait a minute, I've already written the book by giving this talk over and over and over. And uh I just sat down and And gave my lecture to the paper, and there it was the first edition of Europe through the back door. Yeah.

23:16 I think I even hand wrote it or something. But it was just my lecture. I mean,'cause I had given that lecture and for me giving the t the giving the talk is is is uh recreation. It's how how are you gonna um How are you gonna design these ideas and get it across and how are you gonna illustrate it? And uh you know, you're gonna talk about uh uh bed and breakfasts and how did that relate to youth hostels and what about sleeping on the train and uh finding cheap free free places to sleep and and whatever. And after each at the beginning of each class. I had everybody write on a piece of paper their fears and apprehensions. And I would survey for a long time. I would survey the class in the first night

23:52 And what are your fears and apprehensions? And I really got good at knowing what people's fears and apprehensions were. They're afraid of the language barrier. They're afraid of not finding a room. They're afraid of uh you know getting diarrhea, they're afraid of pickpockets, they're afraid of well how do I how do I use my traveler's checks properly. Um so you know, and I just would have all of these issues that I would just Bing bing bing. You took your

24:19 And you typed it up into into a book that that you called Europe through the back door. And did you did you structure the book in just a you know c clear way was like country by country. Is that how you organized it? In the beginning the book was two halves. It was like two books bound together. The first half was all the skills, packing, hotels. Eating, transportation, communication, you name it. And then the last half were

24:44 individual chapters on my twenty favorite discoveries. These are the backdoors. So I didn't need to write a guidebook to Paris or to Ireland. I just need to share my discoveries. And um for a long time I kind of almost prided myself in not having to bog down on you know, phone numbers and prices and hours and that kind of stuff. I just wrote creative articles to turn people on to my favorite Yeah. Dingle Peninsula in Ireland, Arrow Island up in Denmark, uh, you know, the Mosul River Valley instead of the Rhine for your castles in Germany. And did you did you get it formally published? Did you I mean did you start to distribute to bookstores? Well tell me what what the book looked like and and how how you made that The book looked so simple that

25:29 Once it was already sold. People When I tried to get publicity they thought it was a pre publication edition. They would say, When's the book coming out? This is the book. It was a very simple thing. It was self published. I didn't know what an ISPN was, so it it didn't have an ISPN, which was stupid.

25:50 My girlfriend for me. My My roommate. uh was an artist. He I gave him the uh photographs that I w I and he sketched them really nicely. And and then it was a time when you type and you you correct by

26:03 typing it on another piece of paper with a glue stick, you then you you you glue that strip over the the line that has the mistake. Yeah so it was a lovingly put together pile of 180 pages and I took it up to the publisher with and I dug up all my money and it would cost a couple thousand dollars and I got a couple thousand books. Uh, came back a few weeks later, picked him up in my Oldsmobile station wagon, drove home. And now I had the first self published edition of Rick's Steve's Europe through the back door. And then after that I finally got a publisher, which uh was a blessing. And how much were you charging for the book in that in that first year? I think it was Four ninety five.

26:40 And so you were just hawking them yourself. You were you were going into bookstores and and saying, Hey, I've got these books or you were going to giving lectures and and offering the book for sale. And then I would have the books in my car. And It was literally the books in the back of my car and I I remember a a few occasions I was giving a talk and Oh no you can't sell anything on the premises here. Okay. After the talk I'd say if you want to buy the book, I'll be out in my car. And it's just five bucks, you know? And then it's just bam, bam, bam, selling like hot cakes and

27:07 Uh, and I got to the point where I would get bigger and bigger classes and I would sell the book for The book got bigger and bigger and bigger, but I kept it at five dollars for a long time just'cause I wanted to move those books. And I I knew though that my audience was my parents age for m for many years. Now I'm older, so I I don't have audience that's my parents age anymore. But um in the beginning I was always thinking I'm talking to my parents and their friends. you know, leading these lectures and talking about going to Europe, I mean

27:38 Were you just saying, Look, you can do this. I don't speak French, German, Dutch. You can you can get a little guidebook, you can make your you know, you can make it work. I I think that's part of my Um How I was successful. part of my appeal is I'm not a scholar.

27:52 you know, I mispronounce the words. I I don't know how to s I don't say Paris, you know. Um I say Paris. Um I speak only English. You know, remember I was interviewing my students. That was a fear and apprehension. I don't speak the language. And I tell'em, Well neither do I, and I write guide books, I make T V shows, I lead tours, and I have great vacations, going to Portugal. So I I I have to imagine after you Publish Europe through the backdoor, self publish that fur I think the first edition came out in nineteen eighty, is that right? Yes, that's right. Um I'm assuming that it was clear to you.'Cause you had you had established a business, right? You you called it Europe through the back door like a few years earlier, it was like a you you probably filed an L C but

28:34 I it's not clear to me that you thought this was still going to be the way you were gonna make a living up until Ninety. I was just having fun teaching and selling books out of the back of my car when I had books to sell. But you know when I think back on it Friends and loved ones and relatives give me these ideas in my My gut response is No, that's crazy. And then I think about it and it's actually a great idea. And uh Good friend of my parents, uh Patty Price said you should take

29:04 Bus tours around. And I just thought, that sounds horrible. And then I thought, God, there's huge efficiency in sharing the rental cost of a mini bus. And I'd love to um sh you know, I'd love to help organize people's trip plans uh at the table in the dormitory over lunch. And I'd love to take people around to Europe on these minibus tours and so I uh you know, I was giving these talks and it was very easy. to um talk people who were enamored with me because of my fun stories I could tell about traveling. They you know it's kind of

29:34 Natural they would. They'd be interested in traveling with me if I made that possible. And I did. And The the mini bus there was no there was no promises. The the mini bus tours were like it was like a commune on wheels. It was

29:47 it was not profitable except to cover my costs so I could stay over there longer. And um You know, um everybody had to almost sign a little agreement that says they wouldn't um complain about the lousy accommodations. It was so upfront. So you you would basically would you drive the bus? Yeah, I drove the bus. It was just the that was a beautiful formula. When people want to get into the travel business, uh and make some money, I say, you know, f I think the best thing is just to have a forte. Just you know, you are uh

30:13 you know, you are m Mr um uh Sc Scandinavia or you are Mr Baja or Mr Baja California, and just do that specialty with eight people on a minibus. And uh The economy of uh sharing a a vehicle with eight people is wonderful. The fact that you don't have to take care of uh a driver and a guide, but the driver can be the guide is wonderful. And uh that's that was kind of my original formula there. And this worked really well at the time. I was I would actually

30:43 have a day where I would uh announce my my mini bus tour plans for the next year and I would And I'd have, you know, four or five. tours that I would do with the mini bus, I was always the guide and the driver. And that night

31:03 All those tours would be full. They would sell out. They would sell out that one night. And it was like what, ten or twelve people per per tour. Eight people per tour. It was usually twenty two days. Back then I only did twenty two day tours. I was on a one man crusade to help Americans have a longer vacation. I'm amazed that we put up with such short vacations and so is twenty-two days in Britain, twenty two days in Germany, our student Switzerland. Uh it's funny, because now, you know, forty years later, it's evolved where that's way too long for the American market, and uh the longest tour is twenty days and our best selling tours are ten or twelve days.

31:37 So I'm I'm trying to I'm trying to picture this. I mean you are like in your late twenties, you're offering these mini bus tours of with eight people and it's you're driving the minibus and you're the guide. And you only speak English. So I mean that's a lot to take on. Like you didn't have a local guide with you, it was just you and eight people. Oh yeah. And I I w didn't have the um sophistication or the appreciation of a local guide or the or the money for a local guide. So we were just bumbling around together. You know, I remember we we would do the craziest things. We'd they would go through the

32:09 The there's an oak forest where Admiral Nelson used to get his masts for his ships in southern Wales. forget the name of the forest of something very romantic and we would take turns sitting up on the top of the bus on the on the luggage rack and uh a couple of people up on the top of the luggage rack just so they could look up at the oak forest as we rolled through it slowly. Uh every night we'd in the youth host we'd pull out the map and debate. We would actually debate what we're gonna do the next day. And this was a formative time for me as a tour organizer because again I was learning.

32:43 what the market wanted. I was learning how many How many hill towns can a mortal tour find worth climbing up? Uh how many Madonna's and children can a mortal tourist um be excited about? I don't after a while it doesn't matter if it's Raphael's greatest. They're gonna stay in the bus and and do something else because they're burned out on Madonna's and children. It's interesting. I remember.

33:07 Um This is this business kind of philosophy I think of mine. I would have the handbooks for those tours, laying around in my lectures and um The handbooks were designed so people could be independent in the context of the tour. That was there's always this focus on. Everybody got a handbook who who joined the tour.

33:25 Time and time again. so impressed by how honest my my cl my students were in these classes I gave. I never checked ID for checks when people were giving me any money for anything and and I just didn't need to. They're just great people. But they were stealing this book, these books. And I I thought these tour handbooks are driving decent people to theft. They need to be available for sale. So the next year. It's sort of a radical thing to do. I put everything I knew about doing the tour in the handbook for the tour, intending to give people the information necessary so they could do the Rick Steves tour without Rick Steves. They could buy the book for five bucks and do it on their own. And some people said, Oh, you're giving away all your secrets. No, it was a great thing because it turned people onto the tours.

34:10 And it opened up my teaching to people that wouldn't take the tours anyway. And then I could stand in front of these groups of people who were taking my class for free and say, I don't care. You can take my tour or you can buy this book and do the tour without me. But just do it and do it right. When did you start to think of yourself? As the real deal because I think a lot of people, including myself

34:32 have had and sometimes still have imposter syndrome. We were like h how do people listen to me? When did when did you start to think, God, I I'm not an expert, but but Well, you you kinda you kinda grow into it. Yeah. I I remember a big breakthrough for me was Arthur Fromer. I mean he was the grandad of all this. He's the guy that that that inspired the the uh democratization of of uh international travel, you know. Yeah. And I was just a kid and and uh I mean I must have been right after I self published my book and and he

35:06 I didn't even know he knew who I was. He he had me fly all the way to New York and be on his radio show and Wow. Or it's a T V show I think maybe. kind of effectively put his arm around me and he said Ladies and gentlemen, I'd like you to meet the next

35:23 Temple Fielding, Eugene Fodor, and Steven Burnbaum of the travel publishing world. Those were the big household words in the fifties and sixties. Fielding guides, photor guides, burn bomb guides. And eventually I mean you would do you would You know, do your own. like Rick Steve's guides'cause you'd get a a publisher and and start publishing them. But I mean for a while I guess you were You were pretty much hawking that.

35:45 The first book on your own, right? Yeah. And it was uh there was sort of this It was like this. big business that was just a little kernel and it was just ready to burst out because there was such a market for it if it was um

35:58 Designed and and uh what do you call scaled up properly. What about your um personal life? Were you were you married at at that point in in in the nineteen eighties? Yes. I was married. I forget. I I remember I was m my class was Wednesday nights and I got married on a

36:16 On a Saturday and a Sunday, of course. Uh so I remember giving a talk one Wednesday and saying, I'm gonna get married this week. And then the next Wednesday I was back uh in the University of Washington giving the experimental college class. So I I guess that's a little indication that I was uh focused on my business quite a lot. Beautiful partner for that. period of my life and uh

36:42 Then I got this uh complexity, you know, of a growing family and kids and also a business that was just taken off and and my heart was in two places at the same time. And and sounds like it was still a regional business. This is still like Pacific Northwest. Like Rick Steve's the is the guy in the Pacific Northwest. I remember I was walking to the book the book fair once in uh San Francisco and my publisher put his arm around me and he said, Rick If you're ever gonna get anywhere, you gotta have more titles. You know,'cause then I just had two or three titles.

37:13 And I thought, Oh, more titles, that sounds like a lot of work. And then I had to um branch beyond that, you know, favorite place's essays and generic travel skills into specifics. Where are you gonna sleep in in Brussels? Where are you gonna eat in Copenhagen? Uh you know, what time is the museum open in Dublin? And that was a lot of work and that was a big change, but that's what people wanted and that's what we could offer in a in a unique Rick Steves kind of way. So then we embarked on All of making all of these Guide books to different

37:45 countries and different regions and ultimately different cities. But from eighty on, after I had the guidebook, the tour the the bus tours were we're funding the idealism of the business. Uh I then I started to get uh people working with me and That was kind of a breakthrough. You know, you got a book, you got an idea. And you need to realise

38:07 It's not a one man show. Mm. When we come back in just a moment, how Rick went from selling books out of his car to hosting an incredibly popular TV show. And how that success and all the work that went with it

38:23 would wind up taking a big toll. on his family life. Stay with us, I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to how I built this. Hey, welcome back to how I built this. I'm Guy Raz. So it's around 1991, and from his home in Edmonds, Washington, Rick Steves is running a pretty successful travel business.

38:58 Writing guidebooks and doing small tours of Europe for months at a time. And then comes a pretty important turning point. He starts making a TV show called Travels in Europe? With Rick Steves. Tell me how that um began. I mean, did you did you

39:16 produ find a production company and and have them follow you through Europe? Did it had I mean, how did that idea even come about? You know when I when you just said that I'm just thinking, I am such a reluctant I'm sort of In a way I'm eager and I'm just like an energizer bunny about all this, but in another way I'm sort of like digging my heels in like a stubborn dog and saying, No, you know, some some loved one says you should make tours and take people around on a minibus. No. And then I do that. And then somebody says you should write a book, and I say no. And then somebody Actually a whole bunch of people in the late eighties were coming to me and saying, You should make a T V show. Yeah. I thought No way.

39:52 But then I thought these are smart people and they've m you know worked with other people, made shows, they've got a track record of success, and they see something in this. And I thought, well, I'll give it a whirl. So the idea was uh y you'd make a a T V show where you'd be touring uh cities in Europe and and kind of taking us with you on the journey. Um, but how I mean how would you like how are you gonna Well, that was the trouble. I mean, everything I had done up until now had been

40:18 no finance necessary. I'm just I'll give a free gather ten people together. I'm there all day giving you a talk, you know? But this was different because you had to have a funder. Uh you had to have a it's it's a s it's expensive production. It's a huge investment of time. And for me it was an investment of time. Do I really want to take all that time away from researching my guidebooks? and dedicated to making T V shows where I'm not learning anything.

40:43 You see, when I'm researching, I'm learning. I'm I'm I'm contributing. It's a it's a huge uh practical investment in my program of who I am as a travel teacher. Sure. The T V show it takes six days. to produce a half hour T V show. And you learn nothing during that. I mean, I always thought oh I can learn while I'm there. No. It's just so all consuming. You're just there waiting for the jackhammer to stop, trying to remember your lines, uh waiting for the clouds to go away, and then saying it, and then you go to the next place and you do it. And after six days if all goes well, you have a show. But h how did you find I mean how did you even

41:17 Begin the process. Did you find a production company and then start to pitch the show? What what did you do? No, I didn't want to do it. They found me and I did it. This was a a small production company called Small World Productions. There's this flurry of interest in the late eighties. I was skeptical and I felt like well I can actually play hard to get because I don't want to do this. And uh they were really smart, they were good people, and they knew what I did. They had they had been followers of mine, you know, they knew my program. They drank the Rick Steve syrup through the backdoor Kool-Aid and they wanted to share it on public television. And um I said, Okay, if you guys think you can do it, I'm I'm with you. And I was basically a hired hand. I was the I was the host. So they they owned the c the whole thing and you they hired you as the talent, let's say. Yeah.

42:08 One of their friends had a a a few thousand dollars that he could be the funder. And we did a pilot. And it I look at it now and it seemed kinda gawky, but at the time it was it was good enough to get the show off the ground. And and and what, you make a pilot and and pitch the idea to

42:24 To public T V stations? Yeah, when you when you make a T V show for public television, you need a station to be your presenting station. And Seattle opted out for some reason, so Oregon. took it up. And uh Oregon Public Broadcasting, OPB all over the country. No, you know, thirty years later people think I'm from Portland because my show gets the little OP jingle.

42:46 And um They presented it to the system in a few Channel's picked it up. And uh if it works well. there's a buzz and other channels pick it up the next time around. Uh but what that uh end up doing was um kicking off a series and we did five series with Small World.

43:04 Uh and I remember it was expensive. Every dissolve was it was a financial decision. I remember they had to go to an editing suite and just have a dissolve. Yeah. Yeah. And uh a camera was hugely expensive. Now anybody can afford a camera, but back then. I mean this production company They had this idea, you were the face of it. But it wasn't your No.

43:30 The only pay I was getting was the exposure I suppose to the public and the chance to say and he writes a guidebook. So at the end of the show he writes a cool book and if you like the show, you like the book, you buy that, and then Small World would make a little money. And I mean that was that was kind of risky, I mean a great risk, because you you were essentially giving them the IP. I mean they were they owned the intellectual property of this and you you you you know it could have worked. Entirely in their favor and not in your favor.

43:59 I had no No option. I mean they were they knew how to do it. I didn't. They had I didn't have any capital. Uh and uh it was for me it was an adventure. It was one of those things that if an opportunity opportunity comes along Say yes. You know. I had the energy and uh it turned out

44:17 Could be Frustrating because I wanted to be more than what they wanted me to be. You know, what did they want you to be versus what you wanted you to be? They wanted me to be uh a an obedient host that would learn his lines and stay out of the way. And um

44:33 I had a teaching agenda. Uh they had a uh let's stay in business agenda and I had a teaching agenda. So they wanted to produce shows that would be pleasant to watch and popular and I wanted to produce shows that would teach the Rick Steve's style of travel.

44:51 But I mean, in nineteen ninety one you were not the kind of typical television host. You're you know, you're you've got this n you know, kinda nerdy earnest um thing going. And which of course today that's that's why people love you, but then like you know People were going for like the you know, the deep bassy voice, like that you know, that kind of So I I I mean I'm just curious why they thought you were the guy. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Well if if there wasn't public television, I don't think anybody else would have taken a look at me, but public television was the domain of of the Bob Rosses and the and the Mr. Rogers and the Rick Steves, I think. And we were all getting started back or we were we were we were doing it back then, we were part of the time. I look at it and I think, boy, that was dorky. Um but it's me, it's honest, it's authentic, and it's it's driven by a passion for travel.

45:45 True for public television. And um Uh it's just hard to have a I've got a lot of friends now and that are travel teachers that are trying to break through with a TV show on public television. I don't know how you do it. I mean I'm very lucky that that I had the the breaks that I had way back then. I mean the stations got it for free because you guys were handling the underwriting and then and and you got some publicity. And this turned you into a celebrity. Yeah. Like kind of quickly, right? You know one thing I've had as a business sort of um

46:16 Value is be other people's cash cow. If everybody is struggling, everybody is desperate to be viable from a business point of view. And if all you are is your own cash cow Nobody's gonna want to talk to you. But if you honestly are other people's cash cow. Then you become a key player for all these organizations because you're making them money. Yeah and uh I'm I'm a cash cow for my publisher. I do a lot of things for my publisher that while other writers just complain that their publishers don't promote them properly,

46:47 I realize no, I gotta do my own song and dance and my publisher appreciates that and I pay for it, you know? Um and I I I benefit from it. And from a television point of view. I was Mr. Pledge Drive, right f as soon as I could. You were raising money for stations all over the country. I was spending twenty days a year. twenty days on the road doing pledge and to this day. I mean I just t was talking to the people at public television uh a week or two ago and they said nearly twenty percent of all the money that they raised in pledge this last quarter was from my show. For the whole system. W when did you first realize'cause the show's is it's debut in nineteen ninety one and it's super fun to watch because it's so nerdy and I love it. I love it for that reason. It's so

47:32 I mean it's really special. Um When did you start what did you first realize that people were recognizing you and going, Hey, there's a there's that guy from T V like w w do you remember that feeling? When that happened? Yeah, it was very it was um I remember the first time I ever saw somebody with my book in Europe.

47:52 I remember the first time people started recognizing me from the T V show and then The first time people from other the other hemisphere would know me from the seeing the T V show in uh YouTube and other streaming ways. But uh Yeah, over time that became more and more of a a deal. I w I remember

48:11 into a a y a youth hostel high in the Alps and I just checking for the guidebook information and dropping in and there was uh the guy who ran the hotel said, Oh there's a girl scout group in the in the dining room and they'd love to see you'cause they're here with your book. And I came in to the I just interrupted their dinner and they just go, Oh, there's the guy we saw on TV, we saw his shows before we took our trip and the girl scout leader says to the girls, girls If it's not to your liking. And they all go.

48:37 Change your liking. And that's one of my s slogans in my in my guidebook. If it's not to your liking, change your liking. So they were true blue and doing you know, honoring my little slogans without me even knowing it. And That was You know, that's pretty fun when you work really hard to to realise you're having an impact that way. Meantime.

48:58 You you're you're doing these shows, which is super labor intensive. Um you are also Going to Europe for to lead tours. You're also um updating your guidebooks. You're traveling around now doing fundraisers for public radio stations, and you've got a family at home and I Um, I mean, I imagine you're away you were away from home for for months on end throughout the year. Yeah.

49:25 Yeah, it was Uh when I think back on it. Ah, it was tough. I mean I was uh I needed two lives. And my uh

49:35 You know, I I worked uh a lot of people work hard and it takes a toll on their families. I worked hard, uh and it was sort of addictive to be writing a business that was rising up and it was my dream uh And uh It was also so enjoyable. And I I uh

49:52 I loved parenting. I I I just I was um married to my work as well as to my family and in that case I was uh It didn't work well. Mm-hmm. And there were demands on Being Rick Steve's people needed

50:05 Rick Steeves for a variety of reasons. And that was a big deal. In fact, my relationship with my son was was difficult for for uh several years because uh he really recognized that my public And his other friends had dads that didn't have a quote public.

50:27 Yeah. And I've had this attitude that if you've got an Not I was gonna say an adoring public. But you know, you got fans who love your work. Yeah. I mean I feel like you owe it to your public to take time and talk to them and to you know, to visit them in person and

50:45 So it's a choice you make. I mean I can imagine that That cause some Some tension or stress. Uh In your marriage with your wife.

50:57 Yeah. She just was realizing and I think her friends were helping her figure this out that You know, you gotta stop being in Rick's shadow. Uh you know, she'd go to the grocery store and she'd buy the groceries and the and she'd sign the check and they go, Oh, are you you that you know that Rick Steves. And I'm sure that gets really old because she's stuck with the kids and she's, you know, doing all the responsible things a a parent should do. Not a mother, a parent should do, and she was doing it pretty much alone. Um

51:27 doing the family thing a lot like my dad did, you know. My dad was out there being the big personality conducting the band, uh, you know, being everybody's favorite piano technician and and going with the concerts and And my own mom was at home making sure the books worked and the kids were getting their shots and all that kind of thing. So, you know, I was um That was just uh a choice I made. And um I don't know how else I could have done it, frankly. Um I I went

51:56 to the soccer games and the football games and I was very I was very uh frustrated because I wanted to be working and I didn't want to be sitting there with the other parents watching the kids kick the ball. Um You know, I uh I and uh it was it was uh It was a difficult thing.

52:13 Hm. Now my I mean Uh My kids. w as adults now, they're in their early thirties.

52:23 We have beautiful relationship and I'm I'm they know I I feel There wasn't two of me and much of uh those years were the formative years in my business and it and we missed a lot of opportunities. On the other hand, we we did a lot of great things too. Um and I I wasn't I just don't want somebody else to dictate what it takes to be a good dad. Yeah. I had a a little chip on my shoulder about that because I didn't feel like I needed to

52:48 help the kids moved into the dorm, you know. I mean move into the dorm yourself. You know, I'm busy. Uh and if that's wrong, well that's not wrong. It's just one person's assessment of what it takes to be a good parent. Um but I just miss the the joys, the the the little magic moments, you know. Uh you you can't I'm pretty practical about the reality that you You can't

53:11 Do it all. Yeah. So so you did this first series, television series with this production company for I guess five seasons. And then um And then a couple years later you you relaunched

53:24 the show is Rick Steve's Europe, right? You also on public television In this time it was your It was your show, right? And this was gonna be different. This was going to be The way you want it to do it.

53:36 Yep. I suppose creative people have had that. You know, where they're in a band and They wanna be the composer and the and the and the manager and and create the vision and and say what album they're gonna do next.

53:48 And I got to the point with Small World where it just We had different visions and we weren't enjoying the collaboration. And especially when you're making TV, if you're not having fun in the field. You know. It's not gonna it's the the the product is gonna suffer.

54:03 So I wanted to have fun in the field and uh I I and I wanted to be in to be totally honest, I just wanted to be in complete control. I knew what I wanted to make. Life is short. I'm spending A third of my time in Europe. Making TV.

54:19 You see, my time in Europe is divided it's basically a third involved with the tour program, a third involved in researching the books. And a third involved in Producing the T V shows. And uh that's a big commitment. What's really remarkable to me is that a lot of people don't realize this is that b uh with all the television out in the world today,

54:40 A lot of people don't really make that much money from T V. The T V in some ways is is like a vehicle to promote other things you do. My understanding of the way your business works is that television and and and then you started a public radio show, which you have a podcast and radio show and And and all this c you go to your c your web page say there's all this free content.

55:02 And my understanding is that that Virtually all of your revenue comes from giving tours in Europe. Rick Steve's tours that you no longer personally lead, but tours and books, that that is like the vast majority of your revenue. It's not the T V shows, it's not the radio stuff, it's not the content on your website. I think the worst thing I could do is charge for the T V show'cause then Nobody would watch it.

55:24 People people couldn't afford to run it. I mean public television doesn't have much money. Yeah. My show ran Every night in Los Angeles for years. Every night in prime time. Because Los Angeles public television broke away from PBS because they couldn't afford the the the dues. K C T, yeah. And I was there

55:47 I was there. Favorite little guy for for years. And it was free content for them that they liked and they just aired. And they had they had a budget reality and they said, Well, we can do this and it'll cost us X or we can do this and it'll cost us nothing and everybody likes that and it's free, so let's do it. So as long as my shows are good And popular and free.

56:07 We can do no wrong. That's why our show it just has wheels and you know, we we work very hard. It's got legs. I mean we've we work really hard to make the shows so they are evergreen. And uh you know, and they they get run a lot. We We we try to pack as much content in there so people can watch them several times and still get And um

56:28 It's it works quite well. I mean it's really an interesting model because the content Isn't what drives the the the business. I mean you know, you eventually W as you gr grew and grew and you had I think you were doing what tours for like thirty thousand people a year it by by by two thousand nineteen or even more. In the normal year we take thirty thousand people and twelve hundred tours.

56:51 I mean it's just uh un unbelievable. So this is You know. And and so the content that you offer Mm. Because you can go to your website now and and download apps that are free. Right. You can go you can download free.

57:03 Uh Guides to like like uh audio guides. That is really just stuff you put out there. And I and I I I I hope this doesn't sound cynical,'cause I don't think this is how you think about it, but It really is a a brilliant kind of free advertisement for the things you do sell. Yeah.

57:20 So we spent a lot of money making this T V show. We've got every right to charge for this, but I would much rather have people run it and then say How can he afford to do this? And then it becomes a part of their teaching arsenal. And uh and then people like us more and you know, without even being aggressive and and calculated. You know they're gonna think good about Rick Steves. When you when you started to get more visible become when you started to become more visible and and you know, you're on the T V show and they're Presumably more people interested in buying your books and then maybe even taking your tours.

57:52 Did you sit down and say, Okay, this is the strategy. We're gonna create a travel business and we're gonna do all these different things, or Or did did the things that eventually h happen kind of just happen haphazardly? No strategy at all. Um you got I always think I kinda like this idea of the

58:09 in Mexico there's a volcano that just appears. You know, it just a little mountain grows out of the desert and then it grows bigger and bigger. And all of a sudden it's a mountain. Didn't there was not any plan there. And that's kinda the way we grew. We b we become And for me

58:27 It's I never really wanted I got a business degree, but I never really wanted to look in the book and say, Oh, now you have a C O. Now you have a C F O. Now you have a C E O. Um I I don't even know what that stuff is until it becomes apparent, oh, we need a guy to do this and then they go, Yeah, that's called a a a a CFO. Uh you know, and it it we're just We're just kinda going

58:50 Oh, that's why they have that. Why don't we come back in just a moment, why Rick didn't want the company to grow too big. Or too fast. Stay with us, I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This. Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz. So by the late nineteen nineties and early two thousands, Rick Steve's books and tours and TV show

59:40 We're doing so well that he and his small team We're actually a little worried. Oh yeah. In fact, for years in my office the big issue when we had our annual meetings and stuff was how do we not let growth brutalize us? Hm.

59:55 Because we are. We're a gang of collaborators of friends, like a big family in my business and uh And we're not We're not as typical we're we're privately held. I always say if we were publicly held we'd have no choice, we'd have to profit maximized, but we have ideals and it's not just making money and we didn't want to sell our soul. We didn't you know, we wanted to maintain who we were. And that's I mean, I remember the

1:00:17 I just remember when I used to take the checks to the bank myself, you know, and it was uh not a not a not a sliver of that. Um but um so now we've got the power to do things. We've got the power to you know, when I'm when I want to make a show, a T V show about About hunger. I dedicate a lot of time and a lot of money to going to Ethiopia and Guatemala and we finish it with we don't have to worry about what does every dissolve cost. We make that show first class at whatever it costs and then it has an impact. So we're just really enjoying the success we've had because of the

1:00:48 Yeah. In the tools we use to teach the public. Rick, um

1:00:56 I I don't think many people dislike you, I think probably nobody does. But the the rap on you, one of the criticisms of you, and you know this, is Rick Steves has ruined these Like beautiful quaint places'cause they're just m masses of American tourists coming through them and And they're not special anymore. There's nothing hidden. Like writing about Europe through the back door in nineteen eighty two meant one thing, but today it's like every spot on earth you g whether ch Cinquaterra in Italy or

1:01:24 you know, or or or or you know, the coast of Donegal in Ireland, wherever it is, there's some influencer posing f you know, get posing for photographs in a field, you know, a uh a field of lavender in Provence or whatever it might be. Like it's just Ever it you know, there's it's it's kind of a trope, but there's some truth to it, which is everything special has kinda been ruined. Yeah. I remember there's a cartoon when it was these uh whalers and somebody goes quick Harpoon it before it's extinct. And uh I thought maybe that's a little bit like me. My job is to find these undiscovered places and uh tell everybody about'em.

1:01:57 And uh you know, I've thought on long and hard about this. You know, I'm I'm the hired hand of my readers. I'm not in business to protect places that I discover. Um I remember once I went to an uh a lecture with Arthur Fromer, you know, my mentor, my inspiration in so many ways. And he and somebody said, uh you know, what's your favorite place in in Rome? And he said, I've got a favorite place in Rome. I just go there for myself. It's just and he described it so beautiful. He says, I don't tell any about it, but because I just want it to be for me. And I thought, Arthur, that's not what we're supposed to do as travel writers. We work really hard to find these great places, and the very, very favorite places need to be more important than anything else shared with the public. As long as that place can handle the public. You know, some places don't want the public or they can't handle the public.

1:02:41 And you would be wrong to promote it in a way that overwhelmed it and made everybody miserable, the locals and the tourists. But you know, I'm not I used to Genuinely look for places off the beaten path. But I've been sort of I've morphed into finding

1:02:57 Unique. Authentic places that are accessible to the beaten path. That's what people want. And uh You know, Paris is by no means undiscovered, but you can go to Paris in a way that you can enjoy it without it being a tourist trap. uh how influencers on on social media

1:03:17 Travel around Europe, around the world. Um and and oftentimes they're not They're not really there to see it, but basically to be seen, seeing it, right? Like they post pictures of themselves like posing in in this or or in that place sometimes is a as a way of getting travel perks, right? And I mean I mean you've seen those kinds of posts, right? Yeah. I mean

1:03:37 Just last year I was traveling around Europe and it occurred to me I went to like four places in a row Well there was this Instagram phenom this is uh whatever it is. And uh I was in Muren in Switzerland and people were lining up to stand on a stump. in Murin to get a photograph with the m famous mountain behind them. And they're literally lining up to get this photograph.

1:03:57 And then I go to the Cinquetera. in the Italian Riviera. In uh there's five towns. Nobody goes to Monarola. And all of a sudden everybody's going to Monarola and they're on the spit out in the waterfront in Monarola. And th there's a big crowd on the spit in Monarola. And I ask my local friend, what is that? And he goes, that's the Instagram spot. Everybody goes there. to get their picture. And they don't even know the name of the town, you know? And uh

1:04:23 You know, when I go When I go to the loop I'm not putting on my shoulder pads and getting a selfie in front of the uh Mona Lisa. I've got some serious uh art appreciation to do. Uh so that's a different world and uh those people are scrambling to make it in that world and uh That's fine. With me, but it has nothing to do with my work as a travel writer.

1:04:42 Hm. Rick for a um For a sixty five year old guy, um, you are remarkably self aware of your privilege and Um your um have you talked about um what it means to be a white man

1:04:56 in the world and You have been pretty open about your progressive politics. You wrote a book called Travel is a Political Act. In two thousand nine you've updated it. Um

1:05:09 Do you think Do you think because you have spent so much time overseas seeing other cultures and talking to other people that it it it's actually made you more progressive politically. Mm.

1:05:25 I love how travel Opens you up to the world. And I think it does make you more Progressive. I I've always been aware that culture shock

1:05:35 Is a challenge for travelers and uh Just this last few months I've been thinking about how Culture shock is is a positive thing. It's the growing pains of a broadening perspective. And uh

1:05:48 uh I'm I'm so aware of the gap between rich and poor. I'm so aware that That My daily latte costs uh a day's wages. for the less privileged fifty percent of humanity. Half of our planet is trying to live on five dollars a day.

1:06:05 I think it's so interesting how you learn about your country a lot of times by leaving at it and leaving it and and looking at it from a distance. So this is all To me You know, my travel teaching has morphed. Uh we talked about it on the very beginning, I said European travel cheap. It was just budget tricks.

1:06:23 Uh, you know, and uh since then it has morphed gradually, gradually, gradually over the years. And now it is Getting out of your comfort zone. And gaining an empathy for people who live differently and see things differently than we do. You know, for somebody who really, um, kinda started this as a A passion project, right?

1:06:45 Um, you never I I can't imagine you ever anticipated getting rich off of what you do. But you did. I mean th th this this is a business that that in twenty nineteen generated a hundred million dollars a year of staff of a hundred people. I mean Um you probably have enough money to retire several times over Um is money in Was money ever important to you? D would it you know, is it important to you?

1:07:08 Do are you uncomfortable when I say, you know, you're a rich guy? No, when I was a when I was a kid I wanted to get A's. As a businessman, when you get A's by making money. Uh I I pride myself in paying my staff well and taking care of my staff and providing a a working environment that helps people feel good about what they're doing and not just you know earning a paycheck, but But contributing in a positive way. And I like to make money. When I when I make money I can do things that um

1:07:38 Give me power to do stuff that I think is worthwhile. Hm. Like what? You know, I like to pay the rent for my local symphony.

1:07:46 So my symphony uh has a tough time financially, like most symphonies. And I just thought. How about if one of your fans just paid the concert hall rental fee all year long, every year? So I've committed myself to doing that. I uh I care about uh homelessness. Uh here. You know, I try to find make sure people can find an affordable who don't when they're traveling in Europe. And I know a lot of people will never see their name on a plane ticket because life is just tough for them and and if we've got money for traveling, we should have money to house people that here in our country. So I bought a twenty five unit apartment building.

1:08:17 That's in in Edmonds wasn't it right? Yeah, north of Seattle. And I thought a lot of you know well off people have money as a nest egg sitting in the bank making interest. Why not take that capital and buy an apartment complex and then give it to the YWCA or some organization like that to house people. And uh you still own it. But your money is doing something good instead of sitting in the bank. Uh eventually I just gave that building to the YWCA and now I go to sleep knowing that my hard work has resulted in the YWCA owning in a a twenty five unit apartment complex that is housing twenty five single moms, uh in this case people who have had problems with hard drug addiction and they were not able to be with their kids and now they can be with their kids.

1:09:01 Do you give yourself some luxuries like w when you travel, do you travel first class on a flat bed? I've never paid for anything other than Economy on an airplane ticket. If I get bumped, you just get upgraded because of your your miles. No, I don't do miles. I've never collected miles or anything like that. I just have a I don't want to try to defend it because I don't know for sure why I don't like it, but I don't bother with Miles. I don't like miles. Um when you fly to Europe, you fly an economy class. Oh yeah, I fly way back there. And you just somebody just sits next to you and they're like

1:09:33 Wait, aren't you Rick Steve? I just sit there like a Norwegian Bernie Sanders with my uh noise reduction headphones on looking at my laptop for eight hours. How do you prevent people from giving you a bunch of free stuff or trying to influence your decision by making because you you've gotta be recognized now everywhere you go. It's not like you're a a an anonymous Critic. I take it personally because you gotta earn your way into a Rick Steves book. You can't get in there because you gave Rick a a nice bottle of wine or or that your cousin's already in there. You gotta earn it. I owe it I owe that to my readers. So uh it is a constant battle. And I uh

1:10:13 I you know, I get free rooms when I travel. Nobody would charge me for a room when I go to their hotel because I send them a quarter of their business all year long. But um I am very tuned in to the fact that I cannot let that Corrupt me. If if things go south. That

1:10:28 hotel even if it's run by friends of mine, is out of the book. And it breaks my heart. But I have had to drop hotels run by friends of mine because it's no longer what it used to be when it earned a spot in the book. Do you um Do you think that your audience is getting older or do you think that you are still appealing to Like if you're if you're young

1:10:50 Traveller today. Like when I was twenty and I went all over Europe. Why would you use a Rick Steve's guide versus a let's go or a rough guide or a lonely planet. Yeah, my staff is tuned in to

1:11:04 generational changes and so on. Um I find it kinda boring. Um Maybe it's because I'm the old generation, but um I want to produce content. I think if content is fundamentally helpful. And if it's well designed.

1:11:19 And if it's affordable. Can be devised after the fact to fit. the consuming habits of this generation or that generation. So

1:11:29 Is it an electronic book or a book in print? Is it an app or all that kind of stuff? I don't know. I just want to produce the content. You know I've been You know, our guidebooks are the best. Before Covid hit, my publisher was so excited. He showed me the sales chart and twenty five of the top thirty Guide books and published in the United States for Europe had Rick Steves on the cover.

1:11:48 And I think that is more fundamental than what generation is using it. I mean, what's interesting about your business, right? That It's a it's a travel business, but it's around the name

1:12:02 uh Rick Steves, right? And and normally you would say, well, you know, once Rick Steves is is no longer part of the equation, Uh there's no business. But But I mean Rick Steves is like

1:12:14 Fromers or or or Lonely Planet, right? It's it's you, but it's something else too. It's uh it's actually I mean what's interesting to me about your business is that It can survive without Without the person Rick Steves. Yeah. I've you know, I've wanted.

1:12:29 Where the business could survive without me. And uh I think we're at the point. now. And I'm really happy about that. That

1:12:38 We've got a team. where the the company is viable without me. On the other hand, it's it's a shame when a company is named after a person because then You have other people that should have them. the potential to be the public face of that company.

1:12:55 But it's kind of awkward to say You know, here's uh John Doe, who is uh f speaking for Rick Steves. It it would be nicer if the company was just called Europe to the back door and then John Doe would not be not Rick Steves. But uh that's not a problem right now because Rick Steves is still having fun being Rick Steves. When you think about the arc of your career and what you've built.

1:13:22 Yeah. Top. selling business uh the top selling travel books are Rick Steve's books. Hundred million dollars in revenue. uh at at at your peak. How much of that

1:13:34 success do you do you attribute to how hard you worked and how How much you put into it and how much Do you think had to do with luck? Oh, I think a lot of it is how hard I work. I just I've dedicated

1:13:47 Basically I've I'm not. not at all complaining about it, but I've given my life to this business. I I always work on Saturday. I work every night till ten o'clock. So I'm loving my work, but not everybody can love the work the way they I'm I'm blessed to love the work. I've I've I believe in what we're doing. I got my name on the cover. And uh I like to be America's uh

1:14:08 traveling guinea pig. I like to make mistakes, take careful notes and come home and help people learn from my mistakes rather than their own so they can have a better trip. earlier in the conversation, um you were so candid about your family and and your personal life and um And and I understand your You're in a new chapter there as well. Um you and your wife had have divorced divorced

1:14:31 some time ago. Um I guess was it was pretty amicable. Um, but you now have a a a new partner. Uh I think her name is Shelley, who's actually a Lutheran bishop, and Uh it sounds like even though

1:14:43 you know, you're not traveling as much as you normally would, um It sounds like you're in a a really good place. Yeah. I'm so thankful. And uh she's been able to introduce me to things that I would have never

1:14:56 ever taken seriously. I've got an apron now. I cook. I know how to use the stove. I'm I'm I'm walking dogs. Shelley's got a couple of dogs and You know, uh I would have thought that'd be a deal breaker for anybody who's gonna be my girlfriend, but no, these dogs are very important part of our life. So It's totally new to me. And it reminds me there's more to life than travel, and I'm really thankful for that. That's Rick Steves, founder and owner of Rick Steves Europe.

1:15:26 A few years after we ran this interview, Rick announced that he was about to embark on a very different type of journey. He'd been diagnosed with prostate cancer and had to undergo some serious surgery. Fortunately, he announced just a few months ago that he'd been successfully treated. and was ready to return to the road. Rick's been pretty public about his experience, hoping

1:15:48 That it will encourage more men to get tested. Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to click the follow button on your podcast app so you never miss a new episode of the show. And please sign up for my newsletter at guy.com or on Substack. This episode was produced by Rachel Faulkner with music composed by Ramteen Arablui. It was edited by Neba Grant.

1:16:12 Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, JC Howard, Carla Esteves, Sam Paulson, Casey Herman, Katherine Seifer, Carrie Thompson. Andrea Bruce and Elaine Coates. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening. to how I built this.

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