#103 Loch Kelly: Effortless Mindfulness

0:00 So I felt kind of spacious and embodied. kind of in this timeless Here. Almost like a cat.

0:09 So I said, Okay, let me do this when I play sports and so the next time I went and played goalie, I said, Okay, here we go and I Intentionally did this. Way of Getting into the flow or

0:22 Zone And then I was You know, felt like that. More

0:28 Uh capable and more Like everything was enjoyable. I was interconnected with everything. Somebody would take a Slap shot from the Blue line.

0:38 And then All of a sudden I'd see it for the first five Yards and then it would get lost in legs and sticks and then my hand would go out and the puck would be in there. And I'd be like, Oh, cool.

1:06 Welcome to the Knowledge Project, this is Shane Parish. This podcast and our website fs.blog help sharpen your mind by mastering the best what other people have already figured out. If you're hearing this, you're not currently a supporting member. If you'd like early access to the podcast, ad-free episodes, transcripts, and other subscriber only content, you can join at fs.blog slash podcast. Check out the show notes for a link. My guest today is Locke Kelly, author, meditation teacher, founder of the Open Hearted Awareness Institute, and so much more.

1:36 In many ways, life is full of change and uncertainty and we're all doing the best we can, and yet most of us can't help but feel there's more. A deeper connection, some wisdom that just seems to elude us, or something just out of reach. So we explore debugging our thoughts and we get lost in thinking. In this conversation we transcend them. You'll walk away with practical tools like how not to let your emotions take over and quick ways to access your hidden awareness.

1:59 But also a better appreciation for debugging your mind. and effortless mindfulness. It's time to listen and learn.

2:15 Locke. How are you, man? Good, Shane. I'm so glad to be here. This should be fun. It should be. I I must say I I've probably never spent so much time researching a podcast before and I'm a little bit intimidated to start asking questions. That's pretty funny for somebody like you to be intimidated. I think it's it's just new. Right. Yeah, I I I I want to get into the vocabulary, but before we sort of get there, and I think that'll help orient the conversation a little bit. What early experiences get you interested in mindfulness? Yeah, this initial experience may help.

2:48 People kind of get on board. With a little bit about what this kind of Effortless mindfulness is about. Which actually Isn't

2:57 traditional mindfulness, it's a little more Like what people talk about flow consciousness or being in the zone. So Probably as I look back, one of my first experiences was Living outside of New York City and

3:12 Playing a lot of different sports. Um, I was playing ice hockey goalie. And I was watching Uh football game on

3:22 T V. And the announcer said about the quarterback He's got eyes in the back of his head. And I thought, Oh, I know what that is like. Oh, I it doesn't mean you can actually see back there. But you have this kind of

3:36 Peripheral. uh awareness that isn't just visual it isn't just sensing or informational Um let me see if I can do that. And I literally started playing with

3:49 my own consciousness and awareness. And I ended up finding a way Two open my awareness around to the sides and my peripheral vision followed, and then I kind of Let this awareness

4:03 Move to the sides where sounds coming going. And then somehow in kind of like I'm not sure what I'm doing. But the awareness continued around in this kind of three hundred and sixty degree Panoramic feeling.

4:17 That then just dropped me into my body. So I felt kind of spacious and embodied. kind of in this timeless Here

4:26 Almost like a cat. So I said, Okay, let me do this when I play sports and so the next time I went and played goalie, I said, Okay, here we go and I Intentionally did this Way of

4:39 getting into the flow or Zone And then I was You know, felt like that.

4:46 More uh capable and more Like everything was enjoyable. I was interconnected with everything. Somebody would take a Slap shot from the

4:56 Blue line. And then All of a sudden I'd see it for the first five Yards and then it would get lost in legs and sticks and then my hand would go out and the puck would be in there.

5:07 And I'd be like, Oh, cool. So then the second part of the story is Um I was telling One of my friends After

5:17 One of these games, he said, Wow, man. That was so cool. You played so great. How did you do it? And I actually just went through what I just explained to you and he kind of

5:27 Looked at me with his jaw dropped and went. Oh, cool. And then walked away. Because it was like, What are you talking about? I have no idea what you're talking about. And then But one of the seniors on the team, I was like a sophomore.

5:42 The next week. came and just threw me this book. Said, here, kid, read this. And it was Zen and the art of archery.

5:50 I picked it up, so it was kind of a Zen explanation through kind of sport. That led to The Sense that You know, you and the target are

6:00 Connected. And a little bit how to do it a little differently. But it led me to s say, Oh my God, there's people Who do this and value this and are interested in this.

6:12 And I think I'm gonna check it out. So I started my interest in uh Finding out what this was all about. And then w how how did you explore that interest?

6:24 Yeah, so then I would do more reading of different books at that time. There weren't a lot, and that's one of the amazing things today that A lot of these Wisdom. Text Uh just in the last

6:38 Really, twenty years have become available. Um and I've continued to kinda update my reading. But then I did um You know, some sitting I studied with a guy, his en teacher, Philip Kaplu. Who wrote the three pillars of Zen.

6:54 Then I did some TM And then I kinda started just Mixing the principles of meditation with

7:05 my own consciousness with psychology, with neuroscience, with So I never was like a True or going into the religious part of it, but I Felt like from the beginning it was this

7:20 natural experience that was a potential And so I would You know, try to find anybody

7:29 Talking about it. Yeah, someone like Abraham Maslow was talking about peak experiences and you know, different I think oh that's cool. That's that's w that's similar, but different.

7:41 Then I'd always do this kind of Well that's similar. They've got that, but they're how do they get from here to there and So it's kind of a Almost like this scientific approach or curiosity

7:53 But always like then learning how do you do it. How do you do that? And so I You know, just continued. Um Through.

8:02 Through college and then In graduate school I actually went and studied uh psychology and spirituality and did two master's degrees and went o over to Sri Lanka, India, and Nepal. And met some of these teachers.

8:20 Um And you know, would put my hand up and ask these questions that they'd look at me like w you can't ask that question. It's like how do you do this? What is this? Well how is it different than this? And

8:31 Uh so it just started to become uh You know, going more into depth. You know, through Practicing and doing it experientially. I think the best place to start this is sort of to dive into some of the vocabulary around this, because that's where I think people get into a lot of

8:50 trouble m myself included, which is Uh let's just start by defining some basic terms. What is consciousness? Yeah, so Oh oh. I'll play with

9:00 You know, again, it's almost like there's the there are these words that are used in common culture and then they're used in uh psychology, academic psychology, then they're used in Uh psychotherapy, then there The translators from Tibetan Buddhism or Pali

9:21 Buddhism translate words and start using Similar word. So it's a quite a bit of uh A variety

9:28 Um and I've kind of Taken them and define them. in a way that's about usefulness or Sometimes I call it the power of how rather than How do I how do you do this? So

9:41 I would start with a Definitive Kind of different. Types of awareness. Uh

9:48 And you know, start with what we know as attention. So attention is like a one pointed attention using Your frontal lobe of your brain, bring your attention to your breath. And then move to uh

10:04 Step up. to mindful uh awareness. Which is kind of the ability To not

10:11 Look from Thought, but look at thought and the great revelation of the first Kind of inside of mindfulness is

10:20 Oh, I'm not my thoughts. Oh, my thoughts even when they start with I am thinking this thought. are coming and going and there's some Awareness that's observing it.

10:33 So mindful awareness is like debugging your brain almost. You're watching the instructions go by, you're aware of what's happening and you see it. Yes, and so You know that That really You know, challenges

10:47 What we've taken for granted, I think therefore I am. So here's the M, the awareness. That is watching thought. come and go and is actually

10:58 As we start looking at that awareness, that's where effortless mindfulness starts. So in deliberate mindfulness or traditional mindfulness, you step up and look at the contents. Oh, I'm not my thoughts. And then in effortless mindfulness, which is kind of the next stage, which is what I Share with people.

11:17 Say now let's look back at What's aware. Where is it aware from? Who's aware. And then you realize there's an alert.

11:26 Awareness. That's not made of Thought. looking to thought. That's aware of thought.

11:33 It's A kind of a contentless awareness. It's conscious. Meaning Using the word conscious to mean

11:41 It is Alert And conscious of the room and conscious of But it's conscious from Not a thinker.

11:49 It's conscious from what I eventually call awake awareness. Which is kind of a pure contentless, timeless. Awareness

12:00 That then As that awareness comes into relationship. Almost like the quantum field arising as waves and particles, it arrives into hearing consciousness and thinking consciousness. as aspects of it.

12:17 Or Kind of like an ocean. of awareness arising. as experience And then getting you can get caught back in a thinker or a judger.

12:28 Or uh Sad part of you. That You then identify with and take to be you. But

12:35 The usefulness of You know separating out Awareness that's alert. And clear And not orienting consciously to thought.

12:48 And then opening it up, so is is what happens. Two people naturally when they're in a flow state, which is kind of the optimally functioning uh way that musicians, athletes, people at work, scientists Operate.

13:05 But they Only can find it. during the activity they're good at. And so when you're in a flow state, is that sort of Effortless mindfulness.

13:16 When they talk about I distinguish two kinds of flow state. One's an absorbed flow state. Where you're so interested in an activity and your

13:27 uh focused, one pointed attention and you're kind of go into it and then time you look up and an hour's gone by. So you kinda enter that world and everything else is gone. And they call that a flow state. But that's not as interesting to me as

13:44 What I call a panoramic flow state. Which is when Similar to that. Initial exercise

13:52 Awareness around And feeling embodied. You're in the world connected to everybody and everything. You're aware of being able to do kind of optimal

14:04 functioning of complex tasks without Thinking about thinking. And then You feel in the now. You feel selfless.

14:14 A kind of sense of joy or well being or ecstasy. Your Implicit memory. is your thinking so you know how to do whatever you're doing. And

14:26 You're just Operating from and awake awareness uh consciousness. That's organizing.

14:35 uh your thought in a way. That's Effortlessly mindful. And is this sort of available to all people, or is this something that only a select few can have access to? I mean that's my that's that was my question. So it's a great question. Uh

14:52 You know, I heard these different answers. No. Oh, you have to go through if you go to any of the you know, the religious institutions that teach this, No, you have to do it my way, you know, is usually the response like Zen or Tibetan Buddhism or Tarbotta. inside meditation. Well, you have to go through training or join a monastery or

15:14 become an Olympic athlete of meditation or Spend Thirty thousand hours. And Yet there's always these what called direct path traditions.

15:25 That Say This Consciousness this Awareness based.

15:32 Flow. Is already installed. And it's available to each of us. As each of us. And we just

15:40 It's like a figure ground shift. So there's like a It's in the background, in the foreground is organizing around thinking parts and judging parts and

15:51 emotional parts. That are in like a little cloud of our mind. And if we just literally this is kind of one of the pointers and actually uh Little experience that you can have if you feel like

16:05 You're trying to figure out your life in this cloud either of your head or your Body. And then you just shift out. Of that cloud.

16:15 And become aware of the Sky or the Space? And then You just curiously wonder whether you're aware from that open mind and that

16:26 Open heart. And then feel like you include what's in the cloud. So you're Spacious and pervasive.

16:35 In a way that's calm and alert. Then there's this possibility to to begin to optimally function from there. And so we can flip this on almost on demand.

16:48 Mm-hmm. That's what you're we're gonna get into glimpses l a little bit later and and maybe walk people through some of that. Um What is the most common reason people do this? So I mean the the amazing thing is, you know, the history of this is this is You know, perhaps the most valued

17:06 developmental stage of of human beings throughout history and through our cultures, you know, what's called awakening or enlightenment or uh a sense of full being able to be fully human

17:20 And particularly To relieve suffering. So that's the first Half of it is This

17:28 Access to this greater capacity this felt sense. Open mind, open heart to mention. That's awareness based and embodied. has the capacity and the space

17:42 To be with And to see thoughts, feelings, sensations. And parts of us that are anxious, sad. So we end up feeling uh, you know, I am

17:54 sad or I am angry, and then you step into this and you realize Oh, there's a part of me. That said, Oh, there's a part of me that's angry. Who's aware of those two parts? And then you realize the parts are smaller.

18:09 But Those if we're operating from kind of an ego center. Emotions are bigger. Uh then

18:19 the ego center. So it's really upgrading the operating system. From a small sense of self. to this transitional Selflessness or no self?

18:31 But then the key is In this Particular. method is not just deconstructing and waiting. After you

18:40 Let go of Or realize there isn't A self in the middle of your head. That's you. But literally letting the awareness discover

18:50 And already awake. Consciousness that's installed That's able to relieve suffering. And it also has kind of embodied positive qualities.

19:00 That people will report like if I just walk into a room and say, Okay, check this out, and I just start with a Climpse. Okay, do the you know, just try this, try that, try this. What's here? People go

19:13 Love. Peace. Relief. Joy. Freedom.

19:19 And I'm like How long did that take? You know, and what is what is it you've been looking for? In your life the whole time? And Could it really be?

19:29 Like This far away? So then the then the practices are these glimpses. So You know, it's not instant enlightenment.

19:38 But it's not long. periods of sitting still. That actually Because of the flow kind of research and

19:46 Consciousness. It's just as easy with these glimpses to do them. With your eyes open, moving. As it is with your eyes closed sitting. And you could start either one, but

19:57 You can uh begin to familiarize yourself with this. uh installed operating system and then

20:06 Like a developmental stage. It just takes Like You know, like a developmental stage from uh pre school to learning

20:17 uh to read and write. So it just takes a little small glimpses many times and then you develop and all of a sudden You can read. You just pick up a book and you can read. Just walk out the door. And you're living from this open hearted

20:30 away consciousness and you're responding rather than reacting. I wanna come back to something you said earlier about Ego. Um, what is ego and what does it mean to be egocentered? Like when you said egocentric view, what does that mean? Yeah, so again here we go with These um

20:49 multi defined terms, right? From Fifteen wise Traditions and people. Ego is this, ego is that, small self is this, self is this. You know. So

21:03 It's it's a fascinating play. Um and where I am now is that Is that ego is kind of a function. And uh kind of managing parts of us. So there isn't one ego. There's a number of these

21:19 Parts of us like if you were To have I'm gonna do it this way. And then another part of it would say, Well, do you sure you have to do it that way? You know, is one of them your ego?

21:32 Or Are they Two parts of this kind of managing system or identified Um So in terms of psychology

21:42 Many of the Current psychological psychotherapy healing models that seem to work. Um, are these parts based systems. So rather than saying you're just

21:55 You know, you need uh get yourself together and become strong and healthy and Competent. You realize oh there's parts of me, there's a Sad part, there's an angry part, there's a hurt part, there's a

22:08 Judging part. There's a And who and then the key is who's aware of those parts. And that first step is kind of basic mindfulness, and then the next step is this um spacious and pervasive, open hearted Awareness.

22:24 From effortless mindfulness. And then you realize Mm. What has been called ego. doesn't need to be killed or fought or

22:34 Gotten rid of or It's not who the little ego doesn't grow up to be the awakened Sense of self either. So

22:44 It's it's a kind of a Personality part. A functional part. that has an opinion and usually it forms around thoughts, feelings, sensations, and views. So

22:54 By stepping out, you can also See that many people are caught in this kind of like Especially when they're very smart. Like, well, this is the way it is, and I'm just gonna do it this way, and that's the way it's worked for me, and I'm just gonna keep doing it this way, and then you know. And and that

23:09 can be seen. So the what was the observer becomes observed. And then can be dialogued with or Seen as one Perspective.

23:21 So the ego is a function of The human Psyche. uh consciousness And the key is

23:30 It's not the center. It's the o one of the organizing principles of your body, kinda like your Blood system. is organizing of your body. The it's not the driver.

23:42 And once You kind of Dialogue with it and let it know that Literally the ego or these Ego managers that are

23:53 Kind of this Round table of of this committee. Usually rather than one. We'll go like

24:01 Oh good. We can take a vacation? Oh we can be part of the team? Oh good. We don't have to like Be anxious and feel worthless and not feel like we can't do everything perfectly.

24:13 No, you don't. You never did. And Then there's this kind of Dimension of being That becomes primary that can be with

24:22 um your whole personality. In in a way that's uh so freeing and loving and And optimally uh functional. So it's not it doesn't lead you to

24:35 join a monastery or sit on a couch, it actually brings forth this creativity. and joy and interest. So often we're taught to suppress those feelings or avoid them, the anxiety, the stress, the uh with distractions we sort of like seek happiness outside of ourselves

24:54 Can you expand on that? Yeah, so I mean a couple of the ways of dealing with them are You know, from a strong ego. If you develop a strong ego and Many smart people who are good at Life can for a while develop.

25:10 str ego strengths and ego defenses. And kind of chug along. and become successful, but usually they'll hit a wall. At some point, whether it's In another area like a relationship or

25:24 become over like get the motor running. Too fast. It's almost Seeing it in the frame of Th there's a developmental stage. So

25:34 There's different ways of thinking about it, but there's About having primary process. Thinking. And then the next stage is

25:44 you develop secondary process thinking, which is conceptual thinking, comparing, contrasting. And then we stop there. with the ego function and the smart parts of us. And so this is you know, the tertiary or the third level

26:01 Um Both knowing And identity. That What has the

26:08 capacity to bear what seemed to be unbearable. And wants to do it and can do it. And that thus No small ego.

26:17 can live a fully intimate Happy life. Because it will always be dualistically Comparing, contrasting striving, feeling not good enough for

26:29 can get into kind of a role like I'm doing well, I'm positive thinking. But There's a s feeling of being that we've all felt. When we're Relaxed and at ease.

26:42 And what if that wasn't related to the conditions? Like oh I'm on vacation, oh I'm climbed up this you know, beautiful hill with my friends and now I'm at the top. I'm looking over this

26:57 beautiful space and this view, and I'm feeling That I can let go of seeking And be connected to nature and people. And this sense of well being and freedom. And then you go back to work and say

27:13 Oh my God, I don't have a vacation for six months to be able to go back to that place'cause that's where it is. So what if that We're actually just a background foreground shift That was done through

27:25 External events, people, place and things. What if it didn't have to do with People place and things that that same sense of well being was our central nature in this next

27:39 phase of development. So maybe walk me through what that looks like. Like if I if I come to you and I'm Maybe let's do some common scenarios, right? Like I'm I'm anxious. I'm feeling super anxious. What what would you advise me to do? Yeah, so there's there's two two approaches. One is um

27:59 One is the the basic training. So I ha I have, you know, kinda bunch of hats that you know, I'm interested in the As a psychotherapist.

28:10 Um kind of a Awakening teacher or meditation teacher. Um Neuroscience bring in neuroscience and from the meditation awakening. It's really about okay, let's not deal with the symptom. Let's train you over time.

28:27 to not focus on what's arising, but who or what is it arising to. That's That's the key. We're not gonna focus on uh changing your thoughts or Trying to mitigate

28:40 Primarily. I mean You would always always start with things that You know, our basic uh calming and soothing practices. So there's ways to just

28:52 You know, I work with Kind of a simple. set of practices where you do Kind of a three part breath. And then breathe out a little slower, and what that does.

29:02 Is it addresses the Autonomic nervous system. And your polyvagal. uh nerves and it also gives you one pointed attention. And it oxygenates your system.

29:16 You know, so there's certain Preparations. To get you out of that. Initial. Anxiety.

29:23 But primarily It's finding that which Is already here. That isn't anxious. And then as that.

29:31 Go back and check out. What that part of you that's anxious. is worried about. So it's upgrading. And then you know, there's a psychotherapy

29:42 Version of that. um that I could go through as well. Which is starting Starting with the The anxiety and locating it.

29:53 physicalizing it. And saying where in or around your body are you anxious? And then Rather than saying, What are you anxious about? 'Cause some people are like, I don't know. I think it's maybe this, maybe that, maybe this.

30:07 Soothing, calming the body, nervous system. Chattering mind relax. Then Finding this so someone might say their throat. I'm anxious where you feel it, it's in my throat, right here, what's its shape size.

30:21 color, what is it communicating to you? So you really like give it A voice give it a Felt sense of location. 'Cause you're developing it as a part of you. And noticing oh it's

30:34 Somebody might say the cortisol and adrenaline's running through their whole body, so well, my whole body's anxious. And You could find a center of that. Or sometimes I'll use the whole body. Okay. So

30:45 Is it is it outside your body? No, I guess it's not. So okay, so then your body is a part. Of you. Can you ask that part? To give you some space.

30:56 And then can you open into that space and be aware. Of that part. From this And then how do you feel toward that part from this?

31:07 More spacious. Awake. Consciousness. Not from just your head. But from

31:16 kind of an open heartedness. And then if I say who Who's aware of that part? People will often say Well I am.

31:25 What do you mean I? You mean the ego? No. Like the real me. Like like the me, like the me that I knew when I was four, you know, like Like or when I'm me really me or something. So that feeling of being Is here. We've all tasted it.

31:41 So that Starting with that, feeling that And then feeling like oh there's a part of me that's anxious. I'm with it. Is there anything that needs to be known? So then the you know the in

31:52 In intelligence can then Be specific. You know, oh I'm afraid of what might happen with the situation at work. Okay. So then you're then you start working with it.

32:04 Both in terms of Intelligence and uh flow and Kind of open hearted. presence and it starts to

32:14 be part of this bigger team that has some help. rather than one part that's anxious and the other part that says don't be so anxious. Another part says Well, I'll tell you how not to be anxious. Just be positive. Another part that says.

32:28 W you know, um You know, you have a right to be anxious. Let's You know, prepare by Staying up all night and writing the report. Yeah, like it's like

32:38 All those Parts. From this Bigger no self self. Or

32:44 open hearted awareness or Awake. Consciousness, whichever you want to call that. But you'll feel it. You feel that is

32:53 Is not a part. Of you. It's this. Conscio you know, some people call it consciousness itself. It isn't. A new location

33:04 Even when it's called self with a big s. It feels like me, but it's also if you look at it. It's like Is there a location? No.

33:14 It's everywhere, nowhere, and here. And that's the But that feels safe. Because you're interconnected. And kind of there's a new ground.

33:26 feeling. That isn't in thought and it isn't just in your body. So it sounds like the levels to sort of exploring that are, you know, the first level is recognizing that it's happening. Most of us sort of suppress at that level, I would imagine. The second one is this sort of like Effortful. brain debugging where you're sort of like exploring it a little bit and you're reasoning with yourself.

33:49 And thinking through the problem in a very logical structural manner. And then the third sort of level, if I'm understanding correctly, is more of a You're letting all of that go and you're you're trying to see everything almost as as a three D hologram, if you will, and and feel everything at once. And by doing that it becomes something that you can explore without consciously exploring it. I mean the the thing about kind it's almost like a

34:18 It's another level of knowing. It's like um That that paradox makes sense in some ways,'cause it kinda feels like that when you say that. Consciously without con consciously, like consciously without words or consciously without concepts. Like it's it's almost more It it's not it's not in intuition. It's almost something

34:40 you know, different than intuition. Everyone's experienced it, but it's not on any map in the West. That's why the language is so hard. But those kind of paradoxes Are Almost show that that's

34:52 Yeah, that's right. You're in the right territory. Consciously, but not Conceptually or something. Okay, so I would say maybe if I were to put a third one there that you're saying I'd make that more a mindful awareness. So

35:05 from mindfully Mindfulness based psychotherapy or mindfulness? Based on the Insight. you've kind of established this mindful witness and now you realize, oh, that's a thought, feeling, sensation. It's coming and going. It's not me.

35:19 But you're still In a detached disembodied witness position. So what Effortless mindfulness does is actually

35:29 opens up and looks through the meditator. Who's behind the camera? Of the The looker who's detached and mindfully witnessing. So that we don't get caught in what I call the mind the witness protection program.

35:44 So then Open To What seems to feel like A kind of awareness.

35:52 That's always already been aware without our help. So that's kind of this move that you're like, What wait a minute. It's like

36:01 There's kind of a effortless and that's what The word effortless. is pointing to it's like it seems like oh behind all this without concentrating And trying. There's a kind of a natural alertness.

36:14 That has a softness And a wisdom to it. That is already aware and when the awareness Rests into that.

36:25 Yeah. Actually isn't spaced out, it actually is interconnected And arises like a quantum field as

36:34 Thoughts, feelings and sensations. In uh In a kind of Embracing Connection rather than

36:42 Detached. So it's with The part that's anxious. And it's open and bigger. hasn't created a new thinker.

36:51 But it's like uh And it's not just oh. Emotional heart. presence it's what's called heart mind. So it has this.

37:01 intelligence available if needed. If there's a specific but it's also Kind of resting as this I mean, I think what I'm emphasizing here is this interconnected feeling of

37:15 Rather than detached witness. It sounds like that would work for stress as well, right? Especially in an highly changing or uncertain environment. Yeah, as soon as you I mean, the main thing is what you're doing is You're realizing, okay.

37:30 There's this other operating system. That I'm I've been Trying to work just with the interface here of the Computer programs. But there's a

37:42 A whole nother New operating system that has a greater intelligence capacity. And Soothing, loving, and it isn't In its essential nature.

37:56 It's never been anxious. It's not afraid. It's got non fear. Non worry. And non shame.

38:06 In its Essential nature, and then it comes Into and arises as Thoughts, feelings, sensations, so it can be with

38:15 Worry, shame. Or fear. From Non shame, non fear. So and it's so much bigger, it's like a deep ocean.

38:25 That's with These waves of anxiety. But in being the ocean and the sky. It's like all right. So what's up?

38:34 You know, it's kinda like. That's you know, stuff happens, you know. And I'm living a human life, so I guess that's gonna happen. So So the continue continue the operating sort of theme, I guess.

38:48 How do we create an interrupt in the moment? Like somebody cuts us off and we're driving and and we instantly get hijacked, like our brains, or some biological hierarchy thing going on and we lose control. What can we do in those moments to make better decisions and ground ourselves? Yeah. So now we're gonna get into maybe a little of of the unique Glimpsing.

39:11 Method. Um, which you learn ahead of time and then You know, once you've learned it. And it You know, takes

39:21 Interestingly. the same amount of time having taught Deliberate mindfulness or basic mindfulness. the same amount of time to learn this glimpsing practice or effortless mindfulness as it does Deliberate mindfulness.

39:35 But it is a unique way of finding the identification with the thinker or the worrier or the Mm part of us that's in fight or flight or Freeze.

39:48 And then Unhooking the awareness and either having it drop From head to heart space and then open up And include? Or move from

39:57 Thinking to seeing to Open Effortless awareness.

40:05 That's Inclusive. And operating from a bigger A bigger field. of consciousness.

40:14 Not Method it. you know, once you learn it, I'm you know, I'm doing like a a four month course where Now I'm meeting with longtime students who

40:26 meet every other week with me and then they have their own support groups in between. They're teaching each other. And You know, the reports they're making Or You know, that they're stabilizing this.

40:38 So they learn the basics. Of glimpsing. Which is Not Like

40:44 Much else that there is. In the world. So that's the unique thing. Let's go through the basics of glimpsing. I think that would be uh helpful for us to orient around this. You know, so just starting with going back to the first thing we talked about, which is the way I learned I learned this without knowing what glimpsing was was Hearing

41:04 He's got eyes in the back of his head. Oh, I know what that is. How do I do that? And so one way I know some people are listening to this rather than watching it, but Um I have YouTube's of this too, but you can also

41:18 Just kind of l let your eyes be soft and kind of take in the Not just pinpoint one thing, but kind of look at a little wider like All the things on a table. And then

41:34 Almost feel like You can feel like a circle of a soft lens of a camera. And then feel like Hearing you're receiving hearing.

41:46 And then just somehow re Actually realize that Seeing is receiving. Light reflects off of objects and comes to your eyes. So just resting And receiving

41:58 And then You're gonna have your awareness move itself. So you're not doing it, but awareness starts to move. From

42:09 Something in front of you to the space. little more to the sides, then you're gonna feel your peripheral vision follow and open, but your eyes aren't opening. But this having awareness start To open to the sides.

42:24 And then moving itself. Two The side of your head in which sound is coming, going, and then somehow letting your awareness

42:34 Open all the way around. Just curiously wondering. feeling that open view and then just noticing are you aware of that? Spacious awareness or what's it like when you're aware from that? awareness that's equally inside and out.

42:50 Both. Open Minded, open hearted, and embodied. And feeling Kind of dropped.

42:58 Down so you're aware of your body from within. And you are able to Respond. From A more open

43:11 non thought based Alertness. So just noticing As you open. And feel both. embodied.

43:20 What what is it like? to have the potential to move your hand or to use thought. But just rest. Without orienting to thought. And without

43:33 Going to sleep. To rest. And just notice this kind of freeing, it's kind of like looking Standing on a beach looking at the ocean. Or

43:44 If you add an activity You could do stuff From here. So that glimpses Is

43:51 Away. that You're not just using thought to do something, but you're actually starting Two

43:59 Shift your consciousness by moving awareness. In this case. It's opening awareness around Which changes Your perception it changes your way of knowing.

44:12 And it changes your Center of identity. Um and it Actually when you're in an F M R I which I've been Yeah.

44:22 Balances If you keep going, it'll balance your default mode network and your Task mode network. It will Open Your parietal lobe, it'll

44:33 Not only calm. You moving you from beta to alpha, but it'll actually start Putting the synchronized gamma Creativity.

44:44 Open up so that you're more creative and related. It'll kinda drop you into this compassionate Intelligent. Field. So for

44:54 Those of us who are Um more prone to instruction. I think in the book you lay out seven steps starting with unhook. Yes. Can you walk us through those? Yeah.

45:06 So So that one I just did is kind of a You know, a quick Um way of starting from seeing.

45:16 So the premise is That Um Awareness is our primary way of knowing is like a

45:26 A feeling of open Spacious and pervasive. And it isn't Doesn't have to be identified with thought or creating a thinker.

45:38 And we can see that when we do s do basic mindfulness, which is just step back. And be aware of Thoughts coming and going. So just that move which many of us have done. Just being aware of your thoughts.

45:53 Is A way of unhooking. or stepping back. to another uh center.

46:04 Or observing point of view that Is Not Your

46:12 Thought based self. So I think most people can feel that. So that's the Just giving kind of some references that some people may have done. the f the feeling, what whatever it is biologically, you know, you can't exact. You can't You can't say, Oh, I thought we were

46:32 Aware from our brain isn't you mean that's not true? Are we aware from the universe or something like that? I kinda don't deal with those questions. However

46:45 These you know, direct practice, wisdom traditions. When you Open your awareness to What feels like

46:55 A spacious view. That's embodied. Everyone reports that's true and then Your brain

47:04 Shows results. The A C C the Interior interior singular course. Cortex, which is the

47:12 Self referencing part of your brain relaxes. So The results Are clear. Um felt sense.

47:21 is clear. So unhooking. feels like you're unhooking into this Um open mind, open heart. mind which is spacious and pervasive. So

47:35 So we can try it here. If you're not driving. By Feeling

47:42 Well so what we'll do is we'll Will drop. Will unhook awareness and drop it. down to feel our jaw from within, feel our throat from within. Feel our upper body from within.

47:53 And drop into what's called Um a heart space or heart mind. As if that's the new Open location. From which

48:04 We're aware. So this is Just one way of kind of beginning to feel what that's like. So just feel This sense of

48:14 Your awareness. uh being identified with this location of where you're hearing From where you're trying to understand what am I talking about from So then

48:27 Not Just what is he talking about? Where are you aware from? Where are you listen, where is the hearer? Where's the looker? Feel that, and then just assume that awareness.

48:39 is actually the intelligence. That can step above or drop down. And Feel as if awareness somehow Can unhook.

48:51 And kind of step back. As if it's stepping out of a cloud into space. And it's as if you didn't do it, but awareness actually is moving itself. А не філ азиф с аверне. Can move itself.

49:08 Down. Two Your smile and your jaw. To feel Your draw directly from within

49:18 Uh feel as if the awareness can drop. into your throat and your neck. And just check that the subject and the object. are now located in the same place. So you're not stretching attention down.

49:36 From its usual center behind your eyes. And you don't have to Go back to thought to check. that you're knowing. So feel that The awareness

49:49 Space. And kind of an effervescence aliveness. are directly perceiving From your throat. And then notice that this kind of bubble of awareness can drop.

50:03 Below your neck, into your upper body. Just feel your upper body. So it can get a little bigger. directly from within feel that Aliveness, space, and effervescence.

50:15 And then feel as if you can drop kind of Into the middle Of your Just into kind of a heart space or a safe open space.

50:27 They go deep into The space within the atoms. And feeling as if Yes. Subject and the object are now located.

50:37 In this Open Heart, mind. So that you're aware of The heart space.

50:45 And somehow you're aware from This heart space. And just notice a quality That feels open. So it's as if once you go deep within it feels like it opens

51:00 To a more open mind, open heart. All around. And within, and notice how you can be aware. From here without orienting to thought. As if you're located as if

51:13 the files in the office of your head. Could come down by Wi Fi. to this home in your Hard space. If needed.

51:23 And then just notice the location, just see where you feel Your phone number arising. Whether it Can feel like it's Arising to your heart space.

51:37 And then let it go. And just notice a kind of Alert. Potential To know or do you know.

51:46 So spacious and embodied. Alert, resting. Deeper than sleep as that which is wide awake. And safe. Okay.

51:59 So that's A sense of One little beginning. Method of unhooking. And

52:07 You can do that once you learn to do that. Something like that. That's just one door. So Mm. I have like Fifty doors. for different types of people and then different

52:22 Ways to Continue. So you find your right. Climbs. Door.

52:28 Some people are more Kinesthetic, some people more visual, some people more auditory. So I found that different learning styles. You know?

52:38 Did that one work? No. No. No. Oh. Oh.

52:45 Wow. So then Just finding A glimpse practice and a Kind of a

52:53 Way of Shifting. That works for you. Thank you for that. Yeah.

52:59 What was your experience of that? Uh well I'm I'm simultaneously trying to to keep track of uh sort of the conversation and also be in the moment with you. Uh and those two things don't necessarily align super well. So I will go back and listen to this again. Can you talk to us about the three levels of mind? The the three shifts are the

53:20 Shifts. Uh from small south. To no self. operating system.

53:28 So that's the shift of identity. Then there's a shift of knowing. From thought based knowing. That creates a thinker. Two

53:38 Not knowing. Or non conceptual Knowing or don't know mind. And then to kind of a not knowing that knows. Which is

53:49 The way that this awareness based knowing That's arising as thought. Can no. So that's a shift of identity, shift of knowing.

53:58 And then the shift of perception. Which is moving from using a tension system And mindful witness. To

54:08 uh perceiving from a spacious pervasive interconnected Awake consciousness that isn't just limited to your body or detached witness, but it's perceiving from this. That has markers. Yeah. Most people have felt if they really

54:25 You know, have been in a flow. Consciousness or have been in the zone or have been just walking in nature. You tend to feel The

54:34 Results. Oh, I feel good, I feel relaxed. But if you really felt Into well What's your relationship, where are you aware? Um

54:44 The forest from. Well, from me. Well But just look. Feel back that way.

54:51 And then people who I'm walking with will say Oh my God. I'm like connected. to the trees and I'm not in my head. So that's what we're doing. We're looking

55:03 To the type of consciousness that is Shift of perception. Shift of Knowing and shift of identity.

55:13 That's the three. And so so then the five levels of mind is kinda where we We go through. So the first level mind is The everyday mind or thought based mind or ego center mind or the thinker.

55:25 A small self. Where most people live. And then the second level of mind. Is uh the mindful witness the what's called subtle mind

55:37 Or subtle body. Which is dropping out of your everyday mind into more Body based. um hypofrontality

55:48 Uh when when you know, when you go running or do yoga or do Chanting or Say um You drop out of everyday thought based mind and into this

56:01 Subtle body. Um, or if you step up And watch your thoughts coming going, you're in Subtle mind. And most

56:09 Meditation system stop there. So most meditation systems Do You know, move from everyday mind to either subtle Body or subtle energy.

56:22 She go, you know, first levels Of Practice. Dropping in, exercise Yoga.

56:30 Or Just basic mindfulness detached witness. So then the third level of mind is this unique. Effortless.

56:39 Awake awareness. So this is Called very subtle mind. Or Nature of mind.

56:48 Um in Tibetan it's called Rigpa. You know, the Down. It's called Turia.

56:56 In uh In Hinduism. So these are these are You know, given names but but we Most of us haven't

57:04 Heard of them. But these are practices that have been Done for thousands of years. And this is the model that says There is this nature of mind.

57:16 Then doesn't deny thought isn't anti intellectual, but it is A flow consciousness. That You can either

57:25 Train In a progressive Way? Or There's these direct path.

57:32 Ways to recognize this awake awareness, which is Contentless, timeless. Boundless. Equally inside and out. And then

57:42 The fourth level of mind is the unity of a wake awareness arising As Sensation. Thought.

57:50 feeling vibration. in the world. So this is where The word this is the difference. Between If you go into pure awareness or kind of a mindful witness.

58:04 The experience is as if you're the screen of a movie. And Everything's coming and going within it, or you're the Big sky mind. And

58:14 Thoughts, feelings and sensations are rising and passing. So that That's the meditation state. But from awake awareness to this next Uh Unity Uh

58:26 Awareness and aliveness. Is what's Described as emptiness. So Emptiness is a strange word. Sure.

58:35 Most of us in the West, but what it means is There's no thing in itself that has independent existence. So a flower There's no such thing as a flower. that can be referred to

58:50 Independent of Sun, water. Earth. An air. There's no thing.

58:58 That's separate a separate object. And subject. Everything everything's connected. So this is the interesting thing. What are we using the word emptiness? We should use interconnected. So so when when I say that to people, because the the word

59:13 It's translated even in the Theravada tradition insight meditations. Interdependent. And I'm like Interdependent. Yeah, interconnected is what we use.

59:23 More symbiotic, like we all. So that everything So w what if we were to use that, like You know, or unity, you know, everything is interconnected. So when we go out to this awake awareness

59:37 And then the awareness is like the quantum field. Arising as particles and waves. And then we feel Oh my God.

59:46 Um being embodied is connected Knowing my body from within and being connected to everybody. And then there's the safety. When you feel that

59:57 Rather than sky with birds and clouds of thoughts. An ocean. arising as interconnected feeling of flow. Then you feel this

1:00:09 Sense of like Everything's okay. and and well being and That's the magic move. From awake awareness, which is a new concept.

1:00:19 Two What's called the inseparable pair scroll simultaneous mind. Um because it's simultaneously Awareness and Aliveness.

1:00:31 And then there's one more level beyond that, right? That was level four. And then the Fifth level is true nature. Often translated as bodhicitta. Which is translated as heart, mind or

1:00:43 uh open hearted awareness. So this is the This is the place where you start to feel not only is everything interconnected, but there's a little like positive qualities are flourishing. And

1:00:55 It's where your new operating system of flow feels like it's a compassionate flow. So there's like a compassionate wisdom. A kind of non reactivity. A feeling of like

1:01:08 Safety and friendliness. That even though stuff is happening in the world and You get triggered and everything. There's this greater almost like

1:01:18 Something greater than you s yourself that's supporting you and then your Kind of flowing out with More

1:01:27 Natural loving kindness. That isn't something you're kind of Thinking about but it's just Like comes from that. Ease and well being.

1:01:37 So if I were to sum up our conversation so far, I think it would be that we try to change Our thoughts. And beliefs. Instead of trying to change the level at which we're accessing the mind, is that correct? Yeah, that most people, you know, most philosophy, psychology, even

1:01:57 You know meditation starts, you know, then we have meditation where you kinda go one level of consciousness. And you get some relief and you go like okay, that's enough. That's just stress management. I'll stop there. Whereas this is

1:02:10 There is I mean this is the Thing that You know, it's it's hard hard to say because it starts sounding like But there is like an awake consciousness.

1:02:21 That is so freeing and so loving and so Available. And it's just beyond the point when most give up, right?'Cause that w that was level three and Level two you said is where most of us get to and then sort of like stop.

1:02:37 We don't push through that. Yeah, we don't because there's some kind of letting go. And and then The subtle So all the strengths that we've used from our mind

1:02:49 can get a little vacation in level two. But then we come back to functioning from a calmer Ego. What And then we're like, Oh well, that was good.

1:02:58 But this is the upgrade you have to go from kind of the old orientation to a little disorientation. Like Where am I? I'm not a self, there's nothing here. And then

1:03:09 The system one is saying like Don't go out of your mind. Stay in control. Avoid the void, you know. It's like

1:03:16 No, you gotta go. But in this method of glimpsing, it literally takes three seconds to three minutes. To let go. And then tune in. To the already awake.

1:03:27 Awareness. That's timeless, boundless, contentless. And you feel almost like you're plugging in or Handing off a baton. And then you're like oh

1:03:37 Like Plugged in. And now like, okay, now include everything. And then it's like wow. So that's that's the amazing thing that I

1:03:48 I'm convinced that it Is this Amazing potential that's learnable and teachable. And a developmental stage and I'm just

1:03:59 Very much You know, more of an educational approach, scientific approach, than a teacher guru or something, I'm just like, Okay, let's see. Let's get a group of people together. Let's test it out.

1:04:10 Give me some feedback. Let's keep Keep getting it changed, but I'm pretty like What do you guys think? And so somebody like In my

1:04:20 course that I'm doing said. You know, I just felt so stuck and Couldn't do any of the spirituality. So I went down to South America and did ayahuasca. And it really changed my life. It's just been amazing for the last year. Everything's changed. And then it started to fade.

1:04:37 And I was about to go back, but then I took your course. And it's like now I can access the positive qualities of it. So I'm not go I'm not going back. That's the potential of this is that it's like This is this is crazy. This is like

1:04:52 And I'm very, you know, kinda humbled by it all. I'm like, Whoa this is crazy. But I'm just doing the work of translating Experientially And try to get

1:05:02 People on board. uh to try it out and give me feedback and say what's true, what's real, what's true, is it working, does it really? Work. Are we kidding ourselves? So But it does seem

1:05:14 Remarkable. I know my life is You know, I wake up My wife says. You have a smile on your face when you're sleeping, you know. Like yeah, well.

1:05:24 Just the background. You know sense of freedom and as you can see, I live in New York City and Talk fast, you know. Even for

1:05:33 For a meditation teacher, you know, um I'm very much involved in You know, more flow optimal than passive than And just Escaping life.

1:05:45 What is happiness to you? I mean It it you know, there's you know like small H happiness Which is the attempt To find

1:05:55 Some kind of Pleasure or satisfaction, right? So You know, and that's Good.

1:06:01 But can become an addiction. And if we only know that level. You know, that happiness of some pleasure, having uh You know, even just the basic

1:06:11 Then the endorphins and then the And then there, you know you know, filling up of of biological stomach that was craving something and then uh feeling okay

1:06:25 Then the d when that fades, whatever that is, whether it's Food or Or drugs or Uh sex or Exercise or some

1:06:35 Pleasure. Then what's revealed is well what's the baseline? And then it's like Almost like go up and then go down, and then it's like Oh my God, my anxiety or depression. So

1:06:48 Most people Because of the small Ego center as the operating system. Well either their energy And emotions they either have to be anxious, which means too much

1:07:01 going on to try to manage it or they depress it. So most people are anxious or depressed. Or They're like in a roll. Of like

1:07:10 Go, go, go, work, work, work, go to sleep. Get up, do it again. So those are like the three modes that most and then people You know, get

1:07:19 too anxious all of a sudden something happens, then they get super anxious, then their body breaks down or their Motions break down or you too depressed. Because Overwhelmed or stressed out or worried. So

1:07:32 Happiness With a capital H. is our natural condition. which is this kind of okayness and well being. from this essential nature which kind of

1:07:44 feels like It's okay. I'm I'm here. And Some day I'm gonna die. And it's not

1:07:52 And I'm aware of the part that's afraid of death and I'm aware of part that Feels like I'm Not good enough, and I should do something to be okay. And

1:08:03 There's an essential Well being, okayness. But comes into these positive qualities that arise

1:08:11 That has this low level of bliss. And Um kind of friendliness toward people And

1:08:21 Things even even things seem like they're lit up from within and It's really this hidden jewel or this dimension of consciousness that's hidden in the background. But it's already installed. And if you me if we learn how to make this

1:08:37 Drop or openness. Uh Or background, foreground. shift so it becomes primary. As soon as it becomes fifty one percent primary. It's like

1:08:49 Relief. Joy, happiness. Bubbling. Freedom because there's there's no fear. It's kind of uh

1:08:58 It can't be hurt. Yeah, the the image they use in the wisdom traditions is The awake awareness is like shooting arrows through the sky. You you you just feel like All right.

1:09:10 Everything's Everything's essentially okay and There's a human being that's Bumbling through life with pleasant and unpleasant experiences, trying to do the best we can with ups and downs.

1:09:24 But the ups and downs are so small. Compared to the new uh baseline. How would you describe love? Yeah, so that that's again, it's like

1:09:33 Love. is almost the fabric of Of this. dimension of self

1:09:41 Primary dimension. So The love that you feel isn't even just Compassion. It's literally like unconditional love. So it feels like

1:09:53 Who I am is love, what everything is love. And unconditional means There's no conditions. It's literally something that is not Gotten.

1:10:04 Through Something. Outside of myself or ourselves? And it's not a It's not a mental state. So that's the the key to this also is this

1:10:15 What I'm describing is not a meditation state. That's a question I'll often ask people will say, like Okay. Shift, drop, open, include. In these glimpses.

1:10:26 Now what's here? And is this a meditation state? Or does this feel like Essentially who you are. to which other states can come and go.

1:10:37 And when you start to realize that this is your foundation or ground of being And you start to be able to slowly optimally function from this. In a way that

1:10:49 You're more creative and related. There's a kind of love and a joy in Um, you know, Chick Sent Mahay, the guy who did the research on Flow. called it ecstasy, you know.

1:11:01 He said it's you know, there's a quality and flow of ecstasy. Or bliss or love. That feels like uh Palpable. Like what we've looked for.

1:11:13 You know, there's still other Lines and levels of love, you know, types of love. There's You know, friendship, love. Romantic love. Colleague love, you know.

1:11:24 Like that are different. Almost like Lines. But this is the foundational Unconditional.

1:11:31 love that we are that isn't something that comes and goes. I appreciate the Yeah. W what do you think is the hardest skill about what you've learned to transfer to other people? Certainly the

1:11:45 But The languaging of it is the first first one. As many smart maps as we have from Psychology and even Even reading the poetry and the

1:12:00 Wisdom traditions. It just seems like a We're filtering it through Our secondary process thinking. uh from a thinker in a subject object way.

1:12:13 And so we're taking in information. And trying to understand it. Based on Thoughts, conceps, and experiences. That we've had

1:12:24 Whereas moving from that knowing to not knowing to this new Wordless Awareness that could use words.

1:12:34 That doesn't have a center in our head. But has a feeling of clarity and openness. So that so even people who experience that in flow. Haven't looked

1:12:48 that way. They haven't looked at that to say Well, where are you aware from? When you're no, I'm in flow, I'm so connected, everything. So they they have the qualities But they can only get Into it.

1:13:01 through okay, well I do it through playing the violin. So I you know, I haven't played the violin, so I'm miserable. I better go play the violin. So this is like no when you're there. Look to see what Is Looking. Like don't just

1:13:16 Feel the results and the expression and the symptoms Of of qualities look to the

1:13:25 Looker. Look. Look to find that. Where you're aware from And so if we start with that, let's just Unhook from the small self.

1:13:35 And have a little sh simple map. Okay, and then there's no self, and then there's Consciousness itself. Which is spacious. Pervasive

1:13:45 Interconnected, open hearted. And Can now begin to walk and talk and type. And create and then lose it.

1:13:55 And then I say no big surprise. Just re recognize. Then you just re recognize and start again and bring it into Action and activity. You know, getting

1:14:06 that started and then being willing to stay with it so that It becomes the new operating system. Takes um It's more'cause the old operating system is so strong.

1:14:21 It has such a Habitual Like pops you back in there like well You know, but Don't don't you think I should be thinking about this and from here? I've always thought about this way.

1:14:31 And It's been presented in a way that it Is this meditation state or it's this you know, time apart or you go on a retreat. And

1:14:43 So so teaching that No, no, do it for small Times and then retrain your brain To remain.

1:14:51 I like that. I think that's a great place to sort of end this uh conversation. I really appreciate you taking the time lock. Where can people find you online? My website is uh W Lock Kelly.org. That's L O C H K E L L Y dot org. And then I have uh

1:15:10 A bunch of good um You know, YouTube uh available of doing some of these glimpses and then SoundCloud, if you want to listen to them, so that's all free. Um

1:15:22 And then You'll see my books and other things on on my website. And events. So a lot of online events where I go through Glimpse after glimpse.

1:15:32 Thank you so much. All right, Shane, thank you. Appreciate it. Mm-hm Hey, one more thing before we say goodbye.

1:15:45 The Knowledge Project is produced by the team at Furnham Street. I wanna make this the best podcast you listen to and I'd love to get your feedback. If you have comments, ideas for future shows or topics, or just feedback in general, you can email me at shanefs.blog or follow me on Twitter at ShaneAParish. You can learn more about the show and find past episodes at fs.blog slash podcast. If you want a transcript of this episode, go to fs.blog slash tribe and join our learning community.

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