Possible: Amjad Masad on vibe coding, AI agents, and the end of boilerplate

0:00 We have CEOs that finally feel unleashed, like they have Rapplet and they have an idea. They don't have to go beg someone to do it. They can like just vibe code and bring into a meeting and look what I built. We want to get to a point where you don't have to code at all. You should be in a creative space. A lot of coding is minutia. A lot of coding is accidental complexity. And turns out there's actually research. Doctors who play video games have much better reaction times. So if you want to do a surgery, I was asking if they're a gamer. Oh, not a gamer, sorry. Where where's the gamer? Get the gamer. A I is reshaping how we work, learn, and create. And nowhere. Is that change more tangible?

0:38 Then encoding. That's where today's guest comes in. If you've heard of vibe coding You've heard of Amjad Masad, founder and CEO of Replit. The platform that lets anyone

0:49 Build software. Right from the browser. Amjad grew up in Jordan, where he taught himself to code before studying computer science and moving to the United States. He became a founding engineer at Code Academy and later led JavaScript infrastructure at Facebook. What you might not know is that he's also an empathetic people focused voice in the AI space. Talking about issues and philosophy that others won't. I've used Replic myself, and it's clear to me.

1:16 This isn't what's next. It's what's happening. Right now. Replit makes building software as natural as writing an email. Shifting the power of creation.

1:25 So yes, this is an interview about coding and the fastest growing programming language in the world. English. But even more broadly, it's about how AI is already forcing us to rethink how work and society function.

1:40 Told through the lens of one field. That's transforming. Before our eyes. And we're thrilled to welcome to the show. I'm Jad Masad.

1:48 I'm Jad, I'm so glad this worked out. We've known each other for a number of years, and part of the thing I love about doing podcasts is people that I learn from. And there's been a whole stack of things out of our conversations, you know, mostly at the Grove, but other places as well. So welcome to Possible. So glad to have you. Thank you for having me. I'm really excited. I'd like to start with a question about kind of you right like it's about making things and so you might even phrase this question of how are you made? You know, tell me about your early experience playing video games and how video games kind of Did your trajectory into Where and then we'll get into more depth than Replica. Right.

2:28 Yeah, so video games have been a huge part of my life. I started playing video games, I think Under like Atari. May maybe even before getting my first PC. I wonder how many people still know what Atari is. Yeah, maybe we have to actually describe what an Atari is. But He used to bid from history. Steve Jobs worked at Atari. I was like the Silicon Valley premier company for computers. And so uh I was I I just like was captivated by by video games. And when I first got a computer, my first idea was like, Can you actually make a video game on this thing? Well, turned out it was initially very, very hard. But Uh, I remember going to every year back in Amman, Jordan, where I grew up, uh, there's a computer show that my father would would take us to. And it's like really big place where they have all sorts of New computers, new devices, CD ROMs, whatever. And I bought a I bought a uh CD ROM and a collection of of CDs and I went home.

3:20 And I didn't know what's in them. One of them was like a fax program, whatever. I used bought a CDs. I just wanted to try one. One of them was like a visual programming experience that allowed you to build kind of game like experiences. So one of the early games that I built was for my younger brother. Ah, five years young younger than me to teach him math. I think I was maybe eight and he was three or something like that. And there'd be two boxes. It would be an equation. He'd have to like enter the right the right number, like you know, five plus blank equals six. And it's like one. If he gets it right, he gets a applause, he gets the wrong, he gets a boo. And it works o out so well, he now works at Replet. So I taught him math early on. Very early recruiting. Early recruiting. Yes, early recruiting worked out. The moment you give a user a program you made, it's like horrific because they'll put in things that you don't expect. Like instead of one, it'll put an E and I was like

4:12 Error. No edge cases. Exactly. But then just the high of not only meeting something, but seeing other people getting value out of it just hooked me. And then video games just been through my journey since then. Uh, I got really into Counter Strike and I used to go to these land gaming cafes and we would play Counter Strike against each other. But all these cafes were kind of run by you know pen and paper. So you would go there, you'd be pay for an hour or two, they'll write your name and what time you came in, and they'll watch you which computer in And like they'll tap you on the shoulder when there's like when your time's up. And I was like, that's so silly. Like there's computers all over the place. I'm gonna go write a program for it. And I was maybe 13 at the time. Took me two years, but I built this like client server application to manage the entire thing with security and everything. And you could like have user accounts and I have gift cards and I started selling it and I got really for the time I felt like I got really rich. I got All my classmates, I took them to McDonald's when it first opened in Jordan. Uh and so yeah, gaming has been like a recurring theme to kind of pull me more. And and now Raplet has a really fun gaming experience that you can you can build the games with it. So, you know, starting with your younger brother, how much is like a gaming background part of kind of the

5:27 Recruiting target. The uh cultural organization target the The how do you talk to people in Replit? In addition, of course. the dynamic of how the product operates itself. But how much does the gaming background inform That whole stack of the company. Yeah, it w it was it was never explicit. But I think for whatever reason, like the way we design the product, the kind of people we attract, the kind of art we put together around the product, even the product itself, kind of attracts those gamer mindsets.

5:55 Uh and actually You know, I've always intuited that people who played games early on had a you know, their clock speed was higher. They could like think faster, they could react faster. And turns out there's actually research around it. Like doctors who play video games have much better reaction times. So if you want to go to a surgeon You wanna do a surgery, I was asking them if they're a gamer. Oh not a gamer, sorry. Where's the gamer? Get the gamer. Um and then uh when we were designing uh Replet Agent, which it was is our like vibe coding tool. codes on your behalf. I was playing this uh video game called Hades, and a lot of my colleagues were got them into it as well.

6:34 And so In Hades, it is like a roguelike game where every game you start starts with a different run and it's actually a randomly generated game, essentially. And so It was a very important mindset when designing AI experiences because AI is stochastic. And so even the language that we use inside the company, like a like an agent run, is sort of like a like a game run and so on and so forth. So it's a big part of the culture. So you've already described kind of your very first Intensity goat experiences. It's the Younger brother, it's the manage the whole gaming land.

7:05 How would you take The current kind of coding enablement. Like well, if your younger self had that coding enablement, how would your younger self have done this differently? Yeah, you know the interesting thing about programming, and and you know those you know those very well. Actually I think my generation It's the last generation where the tools were really A joy to use.

7:27 And then it became it became very industrialized. So when we were programming, like I started on um like my real programming experience when I built that business. was individual basic. Yeah. And Visual Basic was a very creative interface. At some point, I think in the mid two thousands, Like everything became, you know, this like Linux terminal, even building a JavaScript app, you have to download all sorts of software and like uh hook them together. And so at least I kind of grew up In a generation where coding was like a little more creative. And then because it became such a high paying job, it kind of, I think, changed because of that. And so as we're building the product, we got a lot of criticism early on, even before AI, that Raphload abstracts too much away from the environment. And we're like

8:09 we abstract it, but it is there. Like you can peer under the hood. And I think that's what's important. Um But if you make programming so complex at the top. People lose interest. And that's why, you know, in CS classes, uh in universities, but in schools as well, you can turn off a lot of people because they think it's a it's this laborious IT task of like, you know, pip install and all that stuff. Instead, what you want to do is make things. Mm so for kids nowadays growing up, for parents encouraging their kids to code.

8:39 Just go and wrap it and like Make things. And I promise you, your kids will learn programming by osmosis. Like they it they can just like see they're gonna get curious at some point, they run into a bug, they're gonna go google around and ask Jet GPT. And that's how I think the organic learning process happens. And say a little bit about how the gaming dynamic enhances that. What's the way that the the things you've learned from being a gamer To make that creative experience, yeah, you know, kind of come alive. So there's no game in the world.

9:10 That starts with a manual. Yeah. Right. So if your program is starting with a manual, you've you've already sort of lost. So the first thing you wanna get to Um dopamine Really quickly.

9:22 Yeah. So with Raplet getting you the first preview, getting you the first thing that you can see, that immediately just like hooks you. Like, Oh, I I immediately made something, I put on a prompt. I I I made something. And then you wanna create a safe environment where It is easy to go back, right? In video games, if you think about save and load, is a very important part of exploring a game. You don't wanna be in a position where you're just like die and that's it. And you have to, you know, restart all over.

9:51 So roughly we spent a lot of time working on checkpoint and restore. So every action you make in the IDE Uh if I can get a little more technical, every action in the IDE is actually sort in a sort of ledger. So you make an action to the file system, to the database. And then any time you feel like you got into a weird spot, you can always go back. Or the agent did something you don't like, you can always go back to the previous one. So that's another uh principle. And then uh there's the aspect of like sharing and having other people use your thing. So publishing should be really easy, inviting other people

10:27 So we designed the multiplier experience to be sort of like gaming as well. And really I think the mindset g go goes a long way. Instead of thinking of the onboarding mindset is just thinking about it if how it's A unfolding experience of more complexity. the first experience it's like sort of fractal. Level one, level two, level three. Gaming dynamics. That's right. What's some of the places where

10:52 You've been most surprised. By what this unleash of early creativity As Enable some of the medical things were really interesting. I I because it's so outside of the purview. I wouldn't have imagined it even. But you know, there's uh there's a woman that had like a very um rare eye disease and required to do uh certain

11:14 exercises and she sh she built an app that helps her do these exercises with her eyes every day. There's a woman in Korea and her kid has also like a barrier or disease and she built an app to like manage that disease on a on a day to day basis. So medical is one that's really fascinating. I think there's more to do there. And then something also so outside of my purview is like go to market and like uh salespeople, you know, there's a role in these organizations that I I recently learned about is RevOps is uh those people that are managing a lot of the data flow within market uh go to market teams and building the tools and helping salespeople do their jobs. And those people uh tend to ha use a lot of SaaS software, a lot of other data sources, but they don't have anything to connect all these things together.

12:01 to create applications and make their salespeople more more successful. So that's uh go to market. Uh, and then um finally I think one thing that's been really, really surprising. is CEOs, and maybe that gets s some engineers to hate us a little bit, but CEOs that feel disempowered because they've delegated a lot of things. They they they don't have a as much input on the on the process. So you know, uh we we have CEOs that finally feel unleashed, like they have Replet and they have an idea. They don't have to go beg someone to do it. They can like just vibe code and bring into a meeting and look what I built and uh why can't you do that in two weeks if I can do it in in two days. So that's another interesting one.

12:44 I mean you're talking so much about building and you also talking about sort of for kids bringing them the whimsy and the creativity and the fun And as Reed knows, I hadn't programmed since uh freshman year CS. Uh uh so a long time ago, my co worker Parth sent me a Replit login a few months ago and he's like, just play around. And literally within twenty minutes I had built an app and like because I was so excited and because I could do it right away, like it's just so easy to get onboard. There's no barriers, whether you're a CEO or a five year old or someone who's a little rusty. You can get right in there. And I think reply is sort of so closely associated with what might be the Silicon Valley word of the year, which is vibe coding. And so You've said that you don't love that word, we all use that word. How would you define vibe coding? And is there are there other words that you would prefer to use when talking about sort of a full suite of what Ruplet does. Yeah. Well I I've learned through my times in the Valley is not to f fight the high boards. Sure.

13:43 Sure. Uh like I remember when cloud was controversial, a lot of people hated cloud, but just stuck around, right? So so although I have feelings about it, I we we kind of embrace it in many ways. So what vibe coding is, uh it was coined by Andrew Karpathi, and he was the head of uh AI at uh Tesla at some point, and he talked about how uh when he's programming he especially when he's prototyping, he got to a point where he's no longer looking at the code. Where he's typing in the prompts, a bunch of code comes out, and he gets tab or accept and he just keeps going and try to make as much progress as possible before it stalls out. He calls it this is no longer coding because I'm going by the vibes, like whether the vibes feel right, if the app is running, then it is working. And so that That's how vibe coding uh

14:28 come around. No, I I think that the reason that, you know, for us might not be really fitting is because you know a lot you can do coding, but a lot of times you're not coding at all. And I think vibe coding might scare some people away because the word coding is still in it. We want to get to a point where you don't have to code at all. You should be in a creative space, right? A lot of coding is minutia. A lot of coding is accidental complexity. You know the fact that I know that Null is an object in JavaScript, doesn't add anything to my life, right? But I had to learn all that stuff. I think there's gonna be a generation of programmers that don't have to learn that stuff.

15:05 I think that's fine. And and that's the history of programming. Like when Grace Hopper, uh the inventor of the compiler in the nineteen fifties, invented the compiler, she was actually inventing a form of vibe coding. She said I want millions of people to experience programming because it's such a wonderful thing and changes people's lives, changes businesses. And I want them to program in English. And she said that way before Karpathi said that. And then the machine code people were like pitforks. Program in English? No, that's you know, we can't do that. How can you understand how you know how much data you're putting into each register or whatever, right? But the history of humanity has been let's abstract away the details. So we can focus on the more creative things. Now there's always specialists. There's still people kind of looking at machine code, and there's people doing C and there's people doing JavaScript. And I think there are people that are gonna be entirely programming in natural language. Mm.

15:57 Segue to one of the questions I've been thinking about. It's like what is the new literacy is the highline. Cause obviously, you know, previously literacy was reading and writing and part of how we get to a massive elevation of humanity is through a as broad base literacy amongst the billions of people as we possibly can because what enables everything else enabling, enables uh cultural evolution, enables patterns of thought. Now with the the no code code, you know, kind of like the the the vibing as opposed to vibe coding or the You know, whichever. That's a New form of literacy. Mm-hmm. So

16:30 Say a little bit about how you think about this new form of literacy and then also add in a little bit as like one of the things I think is I think Actually in fact. Everyone's going to be having a coding co-pilot, whatever coding coding because just like that CO and all it's like that's now part of just the way that you would also write. Like write an email or anything else. Yes. As we're doing it. So so so give a little bit of this kind of literacy and future of How everyone's gonna be navigating thinking and information spaces. Well the first thing I will say is that uh uh soft skills I think are more important than ever. So for a while in the uh in the US, at least we're all STEM STEM and STEM is s still really important. But I think you know you have a lot of engineers going to work right now and they don't really

17:15 Are not very good at communication, at like talking about ideas. They're good at writing the code, translating some of those ideas into code. But I think now the way we see our product being used by product managers, for example, product managers are some of the best vibe coders because they're really good at taking problems and breaking them down into their constituent parts. uh and communicating them very well to the machine and then like the machine can can build them. So whatever we do if it's like maybe a question about education in our education system, it needs to get better at much much better at like being able to take problems and breaking them down. There was a hype word like I think 10, 15 years ago called computational thinking. Mm-hmm And like people were building startups around teaching people computational thinking. I think that's still important because underlying all of this is still computational.

18:04 So when you're describing an idea to an LM to build it, you need to be able to talk about databases, you need to be able to talk about persistence, you need to be able to talk about lists and and things like that. So If I'm designing a Computer course for young people. I would focus more on the abstract concept of computation as opposed to again, knowledge not an object type of type of thing. Is not only is the baseline computation about

18:31 What the three of us learned, even if it goes all the way back to freshman year, yes. Which it tends to be a very deterministic algorithmic. Data structures, memory management, other kinds of things. But also I think what's gonna happen is we're going to bring in a set of other computational concepts. I think it'll be probabilistic concepts. Yes. Because actually most of like where L Ms and everything else is very interesting, it's probabilistic. I think it'll be maybe even quantum, but A bunch of other things where compute is not just like one plus one equals two. Th there's a richer sense of compute. Have you seen any of that yet with Replet, or is that still kind of in the glimmerings of what's coming up? We see the problems of not understanding it. Yeah. We see the problems of user not understanding that it's a probabilistic system, it's a stochastic system, they expect results to be reproducible and all of that stuff. So a hundred percent like I think The future is understanding these concepts really well. And by the way, once you understand them, you can predict how these tools might work and you can go from one tool to another and still have the same mental model understanding.

19:29 Of it. In the same way that you know, when I was growing up, I really understood how computers work and that allowed me to build you know all these businesses and programs, whatever. Understanding how LMs work is gonna be very, very important. Now the problem is most people's experiences with chat GPT that is trained to sound like a friend, you're not getting raw access into the LM in order to to like figure out how to program it. And so we just introduced a set of AI integration. So now if you ask Rapload like Make me uh an app that takes a prompt, generates an image model, audio model, puts them together, or something like that. It's so simple. You don't have to do anything just putting that prompt to tell you we're gonna use OpenAI for this, we're gonna use Gemini for this, we'll take care of the billing, we'll bill you on behalf of them. But I feel like there needs to also be A

20:13 uh s sort of UI I don't think we've invented the UI for how to mix and match these LLMs and how to program them. So as much as I am a big believer in natural language based programming. I think at some point as agents get better and they're like working most of the time in the background. We need to invent the new interfaces for how to program these machines. Well, also, I mean, you said most people when they think of AI, they think of Chat GPT. And so when I'm talking about my friends who are not technical or not at you know not in Silicon Valley, like that's their only thought about what AI is. And so they can't even open their minds to anything else because that's the one experience they have. And I think one of the things we're excited about is that with Replit and tools like it, we're gonna open up the possibility to build to so many people. And so sort of a two part question. One is

21:01 What is the ways that we can have more people experience AI in this positive, agentic, like super agency way? And then like what happens when we open up these opportunities for more people to build? Yeah. So uh Alan Kay uh has this essay that's that's Alan K one of the um computer pioneers has this as a called a computer revolution hasn't happened yet. And in it he makes the case that literacy changed the world. We had democratic revolution, scientific revolution, you couldn't imagine any of those without literacy. Now computational literacy uh or people being able to use a computer to its best ability, which is being able to program a computer, will change the world in fundamental ways. I think you need an entire generation of people to grow up using these tools. Maybe I'm showing my bias because I have a history and kind of working in education. I was founding engineer at Code Academy where we taught millions of people how to code. Uh, and I'd like to help governments now. We did a deal with the government of Saudi Arabia where they wanna put vibe coding as part of their curriculum. Like an entire generation of people actually experientially

22:04 you know, learning how you use these tools w we'll change the world in ways we haven't predicted just yet. One of my first public repli experiences in Angles was We produced LinkedIn. Yes. Yes. Um and it w it was partially'cause it was kinda you know, it was a bit of a mimetic hack and everything else. Part of what I think Both the AI revolution does and also what Replet does is

22:28 Expand the zone of your imagination about what's doable. Walk us through Like what's a really I mean and obviously Like it's not a I'm not looking for a manual'cause just like your gaming point. It's like a manual. But like what kind of imagination should people bring with them?

22:46 Yeah. Learning. And bring an idea to reality. Such a good point because We still suffer, although you don't need it onboarding or manual. We still suffer from the blank page.

22:58 problem. So we see a lot of it, we talk to a lot of users that sign up to Replet. And then sit there for a little bit and then leave. And I was like, what happened? And it's like I just didn't know what to type in there. There's a Of course, in retrospect, you know, us in ta living in Tac is like you're prompt, what do you mean?

23:15 But of course, you know, it's a it's a skill. Now, before I go back to how we solve it. I think after people go through this hump. It's it's an amazing experience because You become possessed. You walk around your day and you're looking for software problems to solve. You're like, wow, I have this new hammer and like now everything kind of looks like a nail. And once once that clicks, it's pretty amazing. So now we're doing a lot of work at the

23:40 top of the funnel like figuring out what kind of educational experiences we give people, what kind when do we tell them about it. But the the first thing I would say Is Don't complicate it. Like you know, have a a very simple idea, an app that you would have liked existed. Like maybe uh every one of us has an idea for an app that uh you can't find it in the app store, right? Like I want something to do this or that for my kids.

24:04 Having kids is a great way because just thinking that there's so many things. You're like, Oh, I'll just organize my camp schedule. Right, exactly. Or I want this, you know, educational thing. I want to be able to do this fun thing with my kids. And then talk to it like you would talk to a person. Just say, Well, I have an idea and like, you know, just like Don't worry about the grammar's all that. You'll get better at prompting. But initially just really get in and with any kind of idea. If you want some sample ideas. I would just say like basic things, like just say I wanna build a collaborative whiteboard and then just i imagine If you've done improv, improv is like a good good way to do it. Just like word association. I want a collab with whiteboard.

24:43 And then like look around the room and you'll see a plant. that uh allows me to like create a garden or or something like that. So really just be generative and you'll get an experience and you'll get a feeling of it. Do you know sort of who is the typical replic user and like what kinds of things are they building already? Is it, oh, eighty percent of people are building whatever, SAS software. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think most of it is AI software, which is why we built this recent thing. It used to be that you have to go figure out how to get an API key from OpenAI or others, but people have AI ideas. Like they see AI and like a lot of people will be like, oh, I wish ChatGPT did this one thing. Right. Uh and then and then they wanna build AI experiences like chat bots, like read AI is a great example. Obviously, Read AI is very advanced and that it has video and all of that. But you can build like

25:35 You know, I'm Jot AI. Like Go like tell Raplet to like go look at your personal blog or paste in your notes and just say, I want to create a chat experience that sounds like me based on these notes. And so AI is a is a really big one. Another one is like people want to build businesses. And this is you know, as I started thinking about our business more, there's two aspects of our business. I would say maybe three.

25:58 There is the uh consumer aspect, which is, you know, building family stuff and building personal things. And then there's the enterprise, which is like automating things at work, line of business applications, you know, rapid prototyping, product development inside businesses, large term businesses. And then entrepreneurs. And the way I start thinking about entrepreneurs is that everyone has domain knowledge in their head that is not monetized just yet. Similar how you know, Airbnb found that everyone has space in the room that's not monetized. There are People all over the world that have

26:32 niche specific problems that they've run into that no one el else has solved. I was talking to an entrepreneur on Rapid the other day. His wife is a yoga teacher in rural England. And she does these pop pop Yoga events. And most of the communication is happening over WhatsApp. Payment is really hard to do. They use PPPL, all these different things.

26:54 And so he wanted to build a platform for her, but other people like her. So she doesn't have a yoga studio that you can go to every day, but she does these events at backyards and things like that. So he's built a platform and he has users and he has other instructors and and so the the every niche in our life, there are people that are experts and that previously were not entrepreneurs because they didn't have hundreds of thousands of dollars to go pay developers to do it. Now they can do it. I love that example because obviously there's entrepreneurs that you're serving that are building you know, million dollar, billion dollar businesses that serve hundreds of thousands of customers, millions of customers.

27:29 But I think that like solopreneur, the woman who has a yoga studio, like I think of my mom who's a piano teacher, and she's always trying to figure out how do I get my schedule straight? How do I get payment? How do I figure this out? And so there's so many, like she's an entrepreneur. person who runs a yoga studio, the person who has a like a bakery outside their house, like those are the people Who would never be able to afford fancy coders, a fancy website. But Replit can empower them to do so much more. So I love that. And there's something about it that makes me really excited about the world to come. As much as I love Silicon Valley.

28:03 We tend to flatten the world. We just like build one size fit all. And that that means like, you know Yeah, SAS software tends to have all these buttons and configuration just to fit every use case. But instead we're gonna

28:16 explode that and decentralize it around the world and every community might have a special business that does one specific niche thing. And that diversity I think is exciting. And as part of um That diversity. And being fun, um, we'd like to play for you a short clip of one of the ways people have used Replit. To build something important to them. Okay. So great. What if you turn boba into a game? I prompted a basic app and sketched out some boba. I made three different drinks: taro, milk tea, and matcha. I added logic so the pearls fall from the sky. If you miss three bobas, you lose. But the game was way too easy, so let's make it difficult and add some bombs and a scoreboard. I noticed the game was a bit glitchy and I wanted to try it on mobile. So I met my favorite

28:58 Cafe. I added more colors, different fonts, and harder levels. Which is amazing. Exactly. What other features should I add? That's that's fantastic. I mean we didn't just select it because she added it to her bio. We first started working on the on the phone. People said were just like crazy, like because back then there was no AI. Um And we we had to build a lot of things to make coding on the phone like a little bit easier. But I But I always imagined because Back in school, I remember that

29:32 I had a symbient phone. I was like, I wish I could program it under my desk. So it's really cool to see people doing that now. So one of the things that as you dig into AI, it becomes But also now Like What's what's what's a good way of optimizing like, for example, you know, obviously you can do things that have huge token counts. And that's kinda like

29:58 Doesn't build a good business. Right. You know, et cetera. It might be fun as a one off thing, but that kind of thing. What is, as it were, in the game dynamics, the next level of compute. Thinking. Right. Because it's like okay, how does this work within the operational envelope of like AI enabling it, being able to figure out what kind of interface elements. What's some of the The things you've seen there in terms of You know, kind of context optimization, managing the AI token outputs, right? You know, how helping people with that kind of compute thinking. Yeah. I mean they're

30:29 Two aspects of this. One is uh strategy. You want to be able to do things that the big labs are not gonna do or eat your your eat your lunch and like I should be able to build a good good business. Um And and then the other thing what Can LMs do right now? in what scaffolding do they need around them, right? The scaffolding part is really important because this is where you can build the value on top of the LMs. So The way I think about

30:55 uh our business right now, we were in the business of training models now where we use all the different commercial models. And I see our businesses to build the the milieu, the environment around LMs. If you think about LMs as like a as a person, you want to live the ha you wanna create the habitat for them, right? So we built the best habitat, I think, for programming, right? So when we first Did this pivot from like the human being of the programmer to the AI being the programmer? I took the same teams of the company and I told them now you're no longer build for humans, you're building for the I. So the editor team built editing tools for the AI. The cloud infrastructure teams that build deployment tools for humans, they now build it for the AI. So I would s look at any different vertical and I would think this way. It you know, if you want to build like

31:40 A financial agent. Just think about what kind of environment you can build for that agent. Now I see a lot of people, for example, like trying to put LMs into into Excel sheets, whatever, which I think works okay, but can you build an Excel interface for the AI, right? Like in a way it's sexual, it can use it in uh you know based on that You want to hit the right distribution of the of the LMs. You can pick any vertical. And if you want to build like a really great business, just think about building Your user, your first user is the LM. Think about building that habitat for LM to live in to create like amazing experiences. Amazing things with the product. The unlock of creativity, the unloc of what does that mean for more personalization, things that work for individuals, businesses, you know, creative thinking is great. So let's talk a little bit about also kind of some of the business attributes.

32:28 And like one of them is You know, you just mentioned That the But You know, part of what you've done as opposed to

32:35 Home grown in your own models. You're now using a fleet of models. Mm-hmm. But that obviously makes you somewhat dependent on them, makes you more copyable, et cetera. You know, business attribute. So one of the things that the people who listen to our podcast a lot are entrepreneurs, you're navigating a business challenge. that they need to learn from. So how do you think about that? What are the things that you're doing to build unique and enduring business? What are the kinds of considerations that go into that? First thing I would say is user obsession. There's a massive platform called LMs, right? That platform is useful on its own. People can use it directly.

33:09 But for you to build a very valuable business on top of what kind of value you're creating. One is if you're really obsessive over certain types of users. OpenAI can't build for every type of user in the world. So pick a user that you know very well. Hopefully it's you. You've had that experience. Your your salesperson, you were gonna build the best LM for salespeople, right? Yeah, it goes into UI, UX, all that. Now second

33:32 And this this my comment I'll go a little deeper on the comment about the environment around it. So Mm. You know, I said that People in uh using Replis should feel like they're in a safe environment.

33:44 Uh it f it should feel like anything is reversible. Yeah, that turns out to be a huge technical challenge. Now you could easily kind of hack around it or say, you know, we'll just, you know, restart the app or do whatever. But what we did is we built a transactional file system. Mm. That allows undo. Like we have proprietary file system that we spend two years building that every action is like an immutable. Part of a ledger.

34:09 that anything can be rolled back and rolled forward. That ends up being like in a time travel system. And now we're finding more use cases for it, for for example. One way to Make. Um

34:21 Models. better or more performant is by doing sampling because models are stochastic. Every time you're on the model, you might get better results, uh, you might get worse results. Uh, and if there's a way to verify whether the result is good or bad, you can sample from the model. So what we do is because the system is immutable has this characteristics of being very cheap to fork. So you can take a file system, you can fork it a hundred times.

34:45 run the same prompt with with different parameters on on these different uh forks. And then pick the best one. Do it repeatedly. Uh, obviously that that costs quite a bit of money, but for the advanced users they're willing to pay it. They they will get the the extra money. Do hard technical things on top of the models in the environment where the models are sitting, right? You want to build technical advantage. It doesn't have to be.

35:10 in the model itself because that costs billion of dollars. There are, you know, huge industries around it. You don't wanna be training models, at least not yet, when you're building initially building a business. But you can do a lot of other hard technical challenges on top of it to make the models work a lot better. That's the second thing. Third is reaching scale. Once you reach scale, you actually have negotiating

35:31 uh negotiation advantage. Like you can negotiate really large discounts with providers similar to cloud. Mm-hmm. Well, and you can pit them against each other and so on and so forth. So And venture capital is an amazing system to give you that initial money that That allows you to get to scale quickly, and then the business, uh, you know, and then you can enter more of an optimization phase of the business. So you have this great metaphor, uh, which is cathedrals built from bazaars. And so you want to describe the tension between open source and closed product design. And the bizarre is this messy, collaborative, maybe fun, bright, and that's where open source lives.

36:12 And then you have the cathedral, and that is the top down, that's that's sort of Apple where they live. And you said that you wanna build cathedrals from bazaars. Tell us more about what that means to you. Yeah. So I think that comes from Eric Raymond or some of the original like Linux hackers, Cathedrals versus Bazaars. And there was a huge discussion early on in the in the world of software. And so I I gave a twist on it is Cathedral's made of bazaars. Now in the uh early 2010s, when uh this idea of no code kind of emerged. There are a lot of different approaches, you know, there are amazing businesses built there, obviously. uh you know the api or air table notion you can all think of them as no code builders. Now our approach, which for a while didn't work until AI kinda really made it work. The amazing

36:58 Uh. Hyper competitive diverse landscape of open source, of people building all these open source packages and components. What's happening there is it's but it it's like bizarre. It's messy, but it's it's very innovative, very Can you build a facade on top of all this?

37:17 that makes it feel as good as a user experience as say an Ocean. And it wasn't obvious that you can do that, but the kind of abstractions you have to build on top of that. And you can still hook into the latest and greatest. Like when a new package comes in open source, Replet has it on day one because Cause we built all this abstraction like to be able to go get the packages and install them and run run them on the system. And so we're writing Huge wave. We're riding multiple waves. Alm's getting better.

37:47 We're also writing open source getting better. New programming language comes up, we can run it on day one. And that required a lot of investment up front. And there are a lot of competitors that are not doing this and it might be short term. Easier uh for them to do. But I know how the landscape programming works. Things will shift. Like the other day we saw a new

38:07 uh Jason format called tune. That is more efficient. token optimized uh format. That is more efficient for LMs. And so again, like programming will continue to improve and we want to to be the platform. Where you can program anything with LMs.

38:27 kind of how the future work is going to evolve. Most people's experience right now is with chat bots, so they They put in something, they get out something, they put in something, they get out something. directing the work in some ways, but it's kind of iteratively from what they're doing. So How do you imagine this trend, Replit?

38:43 Others. In this kind of everyone working with You know, kind of that. power of code because it's got a you need a combination of That individual creativity, imagination, you know, broadened imagination drive, but also standardization for work processes. One of the reasons why the classic industrial issues I felt this for him and then I hand it from you and you know, da da da da as we're doing it. So I'm certain that you've been thinking about what this means for the future of of

39:08 Corporate work. What are some of the observations you might share? Yeah. When I first came to the corporate world, one thing that I found extremely depressing. is uh how atomized and siloed people are. So you know Over time, uh, you know, with capitalism sort of emerging, you have the original, I think Adam Smith, like, how do you make a pencil, right? Like someone make an eraser. And so people become sort of cogs in a machine. And I don't think that is conducive to the human spirit. Like I think humans are fundamentally creative. I think any time we assume the shape of a machine, I think people

39:48 are actually not Happy in their lives. I'm not a Marxist, but I've read some Marx and Marx says that the theory of alienation and the theory the I think Marx was r right on a lot of the critique of capitalism, maybe not the solutions. Um Definitely not the solutions. The one of his critiques is alienation is that you don't Yeah, you don't see the fruits of your work. You you you build one part of one part of one part of part of a larger supply chain of of things, right? And

40:19 that doesn't make people pr proud of like like I said, when I was a kid when I built this entire thing and my my brother used it. That's amazing. That's I think what a what being human is about, and so I think now we're at an opp w there's an opportunity in the workplace to a lot of that standardization stuff. By work process automation and all that stuff. And what's left for people

40:43 Yes, we'll have to. Broad swim lanes. Like I'm generally in design, but I can code. I can write a you know PRD using chat GPT or whatever. I can even have a marketing idea and I can like use all the tools and like hey, I built like this this marketing package. And that to me is a lot more exciting. So we we have, for example, one of our uh customers, large enterprise, one one person had an idea

41:10 it's a it's a you know real estate uh marketplace where they connect uh real estate buyers, with real estate agents had an idea on how to optimize that algorithm and couldn't get engineering resources. Yeah, previously it was just dead. The idea is dead. Although he's in the business, he understands that he talks to real estate agents all the time. Instead, he went to Replit, he built a new routing algorithm. That drove tens of millions of dollars, if not a hundred million dollars, to the business. And that person got promoted.

41:36 w again and again and again and again. And now he's saying Guiding their AI strategy. Entrepreneurship, I think, in my opinion, is not just about building businesses. You can be an activist entrepreneur. You can be humanitarian entrepreneur.

41:52 You can be an entrepreneur inside a large business. And I promise you, your life will will will be a lot more interesting, exciting. You'll meet a lot more exciting people. You'll have a better reputation. You'll have a halo around you. So my hope for the future of corporate work, but humanity in general. is that As the boring things, the automated things

42:14 Actually taking care of machines. We're left to be more entrepreneurial and more creative. Obviously. Totally hope that's the case. It goes back to my very first book, The Startup of You. So it's like it's it's a definite strong because it's like it's not that we all have to start businesses, but that kind of creativity, entrepreneurship. Engagement with it, the exact passion that you had with your brother. Um, one micro thing that I think is an important thing for people to focus on, because it's

42:37 General lack of context awareness. The current agents have. Yeah. What do you see as the kind of the longest unsupervised work that agents can currently do? I I think it's more possible

42:53 Than our tools allow it to be. Mm. So I think state of the arts LMs, uh, especially Gemini has done a great job at a million context, million token context. uh but others have two hundred thousand or or somewhere there. Yeah, the easy thing is like to fit every all history inside the context, but that's not That's not feasible. There are few components, if you put them together. Then you can run agents a lot longer.

43:17 Uh one component is verification. The work needs to be verified. It's a form of supervision. If the AI agent is going on a path, and doesn't have feedback from the environment, from the work, from the human, for someone, then it would very likely stray off the bat path and do something really Like if you make one mistake it'll just compound over time. So Roughlet Asian to three came out in September. We now boot up a browser. for the agent, have the agent use it to test the application for you.

43:44 Uh, and we have another agent that's adversarial that's like reviewing the code and giving you feedback. And because of that, we went from Agent one ran for two minutes unsupervised. P after that it didn't work very well. Nation two is twenty minutes. Asian three w you know two hundred minutes we're seeing two hundred minute runs that are actually really, really useful.

44:06 Um There's there's still mistakes and all of that. Now we've introduced an autonomy selector inside Replet. So depending on your risk appetite. You can go all the way high autonomy and some people run it for ten hours. Now I don't recommend it to everyone. Now if you have a lot of disposable income, you should tell me do it. But you know, we have medium autonomy and it can run for, you know, hundred minutes, high autonomy can run for two hundred, three hundred minutes. So I I think it's possible. And in terms of the context here, the verification is very important. So you pass from one Asian to a to another. And so uh

44:39 Yeah, you know, one agent does the unity of work, another agent gets a prompt and says test the app. You don't have to give it the entire thing. So it's a multi agent system. And then after the testing is done, pass back. But you don't Pass it back using

44:52 The All the existing contacts you kind of summarize and give the next it's almost like passing the baton to the next one. Again, ideally we put everything in the agent, but I'm not sure we're gonna be there anytime soon. So I think this sort of relates back to what we were saying, how the difference between programmers and non-programmers is collapsing because if everyone has a replit agent, you don't need to be a programmer. Grammar. And I think so many people are talking about, and you said yourself, you worked at Code Academy the last 15, 20 years, we were telling everyone, like parents, Teach your kids to program. Learning to code is the future. You recently said you don't think uh people should learn how to code. And so I'm

45:30 all for the democratization of this for people who are not coders now to be able to use Replit to do amazing things. Yet at least right now, I feel like the people who are most adept at using AI for anything. are actually the people who have learned how to code. Yeah. So I would say to you, Do you think we're at a moment in time? Or will that continue to be true? You're a parent will you want your kid to learn how to code in the traditional sense, or that's gonna be a skill that's not important soon.

45:56 Look, similar to uh what Grace Hopper said, you know, seventy five years ago. She said specialists will exist, but we want this technology to be just so my advice would apply to ninety nine percent of people. Mm-hmm. Like I you know, I don't think you most people who want to make things with software and computers don't need to learn how to code. It's gonna be Uh huge costs on them, it's gonna take a lot of time, but instead just jump into making things. And if it's your cup of tea, if you're looking at the Asian traces and you're seeing the code and you're like, okay, I'd like to learn what it's doing, then go learn it. I think it'll take you further for sure. Uh this time along.

46:35 But if you believe in AI, as I do, and we're gonna continue to make progress on AI agents and All the labs, billions of dollars, perhaps trillions of dollars are going towards Optimizing code specifically. Then we're gonna get to a point where it Again, specialists exist. We need them. If we're sending people to the moon, I don't want them to be on a vibe coded uh computer. But for the vast majority of applications, I think vibe coders will be able to make them. Now to the question about my kids, I've struggled with this a little bit. I've never wanted to admit that there's a temperament.

47:09 to coding, but there is. There is a certain temperament to coding. Do my kids have that temperament? I'm not entirely sure. What do you think is the temperament that uh that a coder needs? Basic thing like the ability to sit in front of the computer for twelve hours. Sure. I think coding is actually bad on your health. And if you're okay with that like you really I mean I don't know any programmer That didn't go through periods of life where they're like really spending a lot of time with that

47:34 in front of the computer with diet codes or whatever, and like just like quoting all the time and like learning every aspect of it. Do you enjoy that? A lot of people don't. And that's fine. Like again, diversity. Like the people come with all sorts of temperaments and some people want visual things. wanna interact with visual s things. Some people want to work with other people all the time. But if you're someone who's comfortable like I was And I am

47:56 I am like totally like my wife is not the same. Like I have an insane ability to be alone. Like I can be alone for a year. Uh but but other people can. And you know that's that's fine. We should be okay with people of different Temperaments. That is actually really illustrative to me because I love math, I love logic, I loved AP computer science in high school. But I'm an extroverted. I couldn't I can't do that. I can't sit with code for twelve hours. Okay. So people like me are okay in the future. Uh they'll find other jobs. Exactly. Soft skills are important. So I feel like we're in this time where some of us see Replit and CAI and we're like, oh my God, it is so empowering. We're helping small business owners, we're helping young people.

48:42 But when you actually look at the numbers, it's like more Americans are nervous about AI or scared about AI than are excited about it. And so if you're talking to someone like that, like what do you say to them? Like what's your sort of go to line to be like, No, this is why we have excitement coming forward and in the future, even though we understand that there are risks. I think there's like a various distribution of intent. Some people just want to get famous by writing like sci fi sounding. Like, you know, just to be concrete about it. Like I don't think anything that Izerkowski read, for example, uh And the yes, you had Kowski big. Yeah. Maybe he doesn't describe himself as a doomer.

49:20 I would say I Doomer. wrote a lot about how AI could end the world and kill literally everyone. Like I can't like You know, every every time you try to read some of those n like there's n insane loops in logic, and really it doesn't compute for me like how that actually ends up happening. And I think it's like a fundamental misunderstanding of the world. Anyone who's try to build a business understand that are bottlenecks that are not just intelligence in the regulatory bottlenecks, that are source all sorts of things. So without getting too deep into that, I think Some of it we just have to counter intellectually and and like we

49:54 You know, the AI optimists have to be out there like arguing with these people. I don't have time to do that. I did that for a little bit. But it's important I know they're out there in D C kind of scaring politicians and and all of that. And I think that's Really bad because like Do you know we can get to a point where, you know, AI is regulated in a way that allows that doesn't allow the US to be competitive and so there's aspect of it that I think we really need to to to to battle. Uh there are aspects of it.

50:22 that I think is on the creative art film front. Sure. Like You know, everyone thinks about Skynet and Terminator and things like that. But who's who's producing like really optimistic visions? About sci fi human. I I love reading mid century sci fi because it's a lot more optimistic. Something having happened in our culture and we don't have really good sci fi anymore. Um so that's another part.

50:49 Now third part, now this is the more pragmatic. I'm worried about my job. I'm worried about my I'm worried about my everyday concerns that people have that aren't sort of fantastical, that maybe are sort of based in reality. I worry about it for my kids a lot, like The idea of it's really hard to go out in the world and make friends and have people like you. It's really easy to have an AI like you. I mean p and humans tend to take the you know shortest, you know, the easiest path and like

51:16 I worry about this AI friend thing becoming a really problem. My eternal optimist is always like Well, look, you know, we had a period uh of history where you know, eating junk food was was acceptable and like but I think there's like Um societal antibodies. I think healthy societies have antibodies around you know smoking.

51:38 Yeah, smoking is like, you know, I w when I grew up in Jordan, everyone smoked, I smoked, I came to the US. None of my friends smoked and I just felt like an outcast and I stopped smoking. I say society is like You know, it's like truly one of the greatest public health battles of our time, and to your point. A lot of it was we solved it with culture. Yes, culture.

52:00 culture. I I think r religion used to play a role, uh, as well. And Uh, I don't know whether it will in the future or not, but like government is such a blunt instrument. You can't you can't do everything. So I think it's it's leadership. It is uh culture. It is incumbent on all of us to just say like no chat GPT is not your friend. Like It's friendly and you can use it for therapy, you can use it for all sorts of things and the Those are fraud as well. But like if if someone is saying to you, it's like I'm spending all my time talking to G hey

52:33 Hey man, it's not really healthy. You know, it's I think I think a lot of it is about culture and society. Well, I do think that like There's like two points that I think are very important. One is the friends point. Completely agree. Um part of the reason why like with you know inflections pie you know, you kinda engages, You're my best friend. It's like no no no no, I'm your companion. I'm here to help you

52:54 Have you talked to your friend Ram Jad recently? You know what what's like with him? Or are you you catch up and I think that That that helping especially for young people. Yes. Where they might be encountering difficulty and so I think it's like Uh tieing you back into community, tying you back into connecting with other human beings. Actual real friendship is not just saying, Oh, I'm Jad, you're so great. Or Amjad, I just I I I I was waiting to to for the for all year to talk to you, except it's like no

53:21 It's it's the that that thing of like Where I might show up thinking, Oh, I've had a bad day, I want to talk to Amjad about it, and then I hear about your day, I'm like, Oh, we're talking about Omjad's day. Right, right. That is actually part of how you evolve, part of how you elevate, part of how you learn compassion, wisdom, empathy, and it's really important. And that's part of the reason I also share with you. It's not impossible to make AI friends, but it's not what's happening right now. You know, anything that that is that is that is illusory that way. Is actually in fact.

53:48 destructive. That's why it's causing psychosis and things like that. Like um You know, there's uh high profile cases. Uh where uh Yeah.

53:58 people have psychotic breaks because they have like delusions of grandeur and things like that. And Chat GPT is like reinforcing that. And that's like really bad. And I think it's incumbent on the uh Labs as well to like start a program pushback into these machines as well, right? Yeah. There was this funny thing that a friend of mine showed me, which is By only listening to you know AI agency end up in a desert.

54:20 By yourself drinking a glass of milk, thinking the whole world's out to get you. You know, so it's like that's that's the the wrong long path. Now back to the jobs thing, people. Ideally Love to say, I'd like to have an elevation of my life, but I'd like to have no strength. And Unfortunately, but those aren't the times we're in. Yeah. We're in the similar times to the industrial revolution. Now there's a cognitive industrial revolution. And so many, many jobs will change, right? Like if you said my my job is

54:47 I'm a form filler for digital marketing. Like, yeah, that's not really gonna be You better start thinking about other things. Now AI can help you with that. Right. What we have to embrace is that kind of That entrepreneurial mindset. People say, Well, but I don't want to, I just want to keep doing what I'm doing. It's like, Well, so did the horse groomer back when there were lots of horses and that was all the transport. That's not the way it works. Right. And by the way, if you try to lock that in, you're essentially going to be stealing your children's future because the other society will move ahead and then yours will now have put them in a very disadvantaged position. So

55:27 The important thing, like almost like that Adam Smith specialization thing you were talking about, the important thing is say, look, I understand that it's gonna be painful for me, but I'm gonna own this. this change because I'm helping My children, my community's children, the future generations. And by the way, Like own it as an adventure. Mm-hmm. Right. Yes.

55:46 Like sometimes you don't choose to go on the adventure, but sometimes you just find yourself on it. And own it as the adventure and how do you shape it and make that happen. And so in this vein One of the things that You know, companies are Starting to look for is

55:58 What is AI native talent? What kind of pointers, heuristics. Thoughts, lenses might you offer to people to say, Here's how you can think about becoming AI native talent. Here's what companies should look for in hiring AI net of talent is you know you live in AI nativity. On the previous point, briefly, like

56:18 Um I I s I I say versions that you say are very articularly uh as advice to people I on the YouTube comments that I unfortunately sometimes read. Uh hey, be nice. Um People ah it's easy for you to say you're rich, right? Um And I I think that

56:37 Silicon Valley has a responsibility to do something. I don't know if it is some kind of like non profit where we have like you know, tr retraining and upskilling Maybe it's a government thing, I'm not entirely sure, but I think there's a responsibility

56:53 to do that because it is it is hard for people. Like people who've done like marketing form filling for like, you know Thirty years it is hard to break out of that. But I think there are potential to create like AI education programs. Yeah, on the on the question of how to become uh AI native. You know, we were at a CO event earlier

57:14 And even the CEOs are struggling with it themselves and really amazing CEOs built, you know hundred billion dollar plus companies that are like I take a week every few months to kind of learn AI, but I'm constantly behind. And what I said, if you if you're a programmer have technical ability, go go really deep. Go read the papers. Go build a fundamental understanding.

57:35 of how LMs work. Uh, maybe even build an LM yourself. Uh like Karpathi has like this really nice GitHub repo that you can go explore and Try to train her own all um. Now this this you conditional on the fact that you have some technical background. If you don't

57:52 Um I would say using tools like Raplet. to build L experiences. So kind of Think about ideas for how LMs could like

58:03 improve your job and go try your hand uh at building them. That's one. Train your Algorithms and feeds to give you AI news.

58:16 Uh, one of the first things that I've I did when I just like committed our company to AI is like I went and followed all these like different AI people. My YouTube is all AI content. There's a wealth of information out there, and so many of us consume content passively. You can be consuming information and learning, and this is And by the way TikTok can be certainly destructive. I see it as a as a skill to actually like train my TikTok algorithm. So like they try to bait me with like you know different content and just scroll really fast. And I pitched this to Elon and I think he responded to me at one, so I said like You should be you should be able to prompt your feed. I want only AI content today to be able to consume. But like this passive consumption that we all do, you can fill it with useful information. And so this next question, Reed, I do want you to weigh in on it. Um but You and Replit uh recently passed a hundred million ARR. Congratulations. Uh huge milestone.

59:10 And you guys have been building for a long time. But right now in the valley, there's so many companies that are getting to both enormous valuations, but also enormous revenue very quickly. My question for you is What do you think about this time where it seems like everyone has to get to insane revenue numbers immediately. Is this good? Is that true? And like what what is sort of the new kind of era we're in, sort of building in an AI era? So one of the reasons uh th there are few reasons that happened that that made it so that these revenue ramps are really high. One obvious one is

59:43 The ROI is really clear when when we make an application for someone and then we put a paywall, like they really like the application. They want it, they'll they'll m they're much more likely to pay. But also just like credit card penetration across the world has like reach uh certain heights. Internet stability and connectivity, there's all these confluence of factors that got us to a point where you can grow revenue. Faz. That being said, like AI revenue can go up as easy as it goes uh down. You know, we've seen businesses I think uh Jasper is now like an enterprise business, but at some point they had like a really amazing consumer business that they lost all of it to Chad GPT. Right. Like so y if you're not an AI business, if you're a SaaS business and and your investors like oh why don't you have AI revenue? Well

1:00:27 I mean the other thing is like Yeah, so and and we spent like eight nine years building all this infrastructure to get to a point where where the company took off. But we're also still very paranoid. Like Google just released another vibe coding thing today and they're a close partner of ours and obviously they're gonna do it. But so many companies are interested in in the vibe coding space right now. And it and so it's very, very competitive. And so if you can build a business Um

1:00:56 That is lasting, that is grows slower and compounds over time, I think I think there's still a lot of value in it. Now the question is like, Are there a lot of investors that want to pour a lot of capital into that. Well, maybe you don't need a lot of capital uh anymore. And so yes, a lot of the capital is going into AI, but like you can build SaaS businesses today that are cash flowing, that can grow over time. What do you think your mode is? Is it your brand? Is it your existing consumers? Like how do you make sure that you're not, you know, subject to that? I I think there are less motes these days than than than before. I mean, one of my favorite books is uh Seven Powers uh by Hamilton Hamler and it just talks about there's seven motes, right.

1:01:36 Yeah, network facts, economies of scale, you know, um, so on. Um I I think that We have a technology lead in that like we built all this technology for so many years. We built a hyper competitive, uh amazing team that will continue to produce these uh technology.

1:01:56 uh advancements Uh we launch a new break through version of agent every few months. Elon said this a long time ago. The only mode is continued innovation, rapid uh progress, and I think that's true in in in AI today. I think at some point when you reach certain scales there are certain decisions that you can make that really create Structural modes.

1:02:17 w we're not there yet, but I think, you know I would say the big labs achieved economies of scale, obviously, right. And that's that's a mode for them. Now it's very competitive between like that. five of them. Um, but I think it is a game that we'll play over time. So I was just as CO just constantly thinking about what are the degrees of freedom that we have. In order to position our business in a way to create lasting advantage. Your earlier question was like almost like the classic blitz scaling question. Right. And part of the reason why now I'm trying to remember how many years ago I wrote blitz scaling.

1:02:50 So it's kind of the lessons from Silicon Valley in China about how the technology companies of the future are built. If anything It's Five X, ten X true. As one I did as like it's the trend of where it's gonna go into. Now that doesn't mean that everyone

1:03:04 Has to go to You know. Amazing revenue, 10x employee growth in like six months, twelve months, et cetera. The thing in blitz scaling, which you know, Chris and I wrote about was it depends a lot on what the nature of the market is, what the nature of competition is, et cetera. And if you're going up against blitz scalers, it's very hard to succeed. Without also blitz scaling. Because the blitz scaling will set the market. It may blow up, but will set the market and if it blows up, it'll probably blow you up with the market. Like a scooter market, yeah. Exactly. And it doesn't matter that you were kind of You know, not uh minding your operating margins and you know can we say it just gets swamped. And so

1:03:40 So you have to look at What's happening on the market, you have to look at what happening with competition. There are definitely opportunities where you can build More Like you know, like one of the ones from the Greylock portfolio is Roblox, where like for many years kinda like Yeah, out in the wilderness, and then boom, all of a sudden it's the amazing new thing. And you can build towards that and that kind of phase can come. So you have to kind of make an evaluation of where you're at. Now if you're going

1:04:05 kind of where the zeitgeist is, where everyone currently recognizes it. It better be moving pretty fast because everybody's recognizing it. And so So that's a little bit of kind of the the the reason like with like with monas AI we could say hey we can actually take a and build iteratively to what the AI pieces are are for doing for the drug discovery, because most of the people don't realize what are the things you need to do. And so you can take more time to build that. You don't have to go

1:04:33 You know. Like it's basically Дью Екстрім анцертні риск. Trying to capture our market. So th there's a nuanced answer there. But But there's a number of markets.

1:04:43 Or that speed and that speed revenue scale. By the way, the speed revenue scale is not just revenue for you, not just what comes in as capital, it also comes into what happens with hiring employees and a bunch of other things. And there's a whole set of compounding things that get to that. So It's y you have to make a kind of strategic decision. By the way, you may have to Change your sh decision. As you're going. What's interesting is once you hit an infliction point inflection point

1:05:07 Then other people pay attention and now it's split scaling because they notice a revenue and they want to go after it. And so you have to change your stance. And that's what happened with us, right? Like, you know, it's like you're replet agent was kind of the first vibe coding thing that anyone could use. Every everyone poured into it. And this is one of the things that people don't understand about the blitz scaling side, which is It's not that you start blitz scaling from day one.

1:05:36 And it's not that you blitz scale forever. By the way, if you don't end blitz scaling at some point, I think that the seven powers I You know. Great book, great call out. Um Maintain I also think the the configurations of how business models come together will still actually get to different kinds of motes. Now we have speculation on what those motes are.

1:05:55 The motes only scale now. Are the modes brand? Are the moats Network effects. Mm-hmm. You know. Are the motes data now? Like in in it'll be in different combinations of different things in terms of But you have to be okay with the uncertainty of the And you're gonna and you're gonna be iterating through it. And you should be thinking about what those motes are.

1:06:13 And you can't go, well, we you know, the cause Silicon Valley went for maybe even two decades and I was one of the architects of this. you know, gaga over network effects. Right as the mother. And by the way, network effects still very valuable. Right. But they're changing and the shape and how they establish and what happens and so forth. And that's That's that that reinvention, like people tend to think, oh The most central thing is you reinvent your product or service. And by the way, of course it's really important.

1:06:38 By the way, it's also reinvent your go to market. Right. Oh and by the way, it's also reinvent. your business model. Oh, and by the way, it's also reinvent what the motes are behind this. And it's all of these kind of different things. Like Google search doesn't have network effects. From it's

1:06:53 Search engine. It has scale. But it's AdWords. Yeah. Is where the network effects and then what it does is it buys distribution from Apple and other people through that is the way that it kinda and so it's how do these things kinda come together. And actually sort of per conversation of the car, Amjad, one of the things I've really appreciated is that your willingness to speak out about things that matter in our society, whether it's Gaza human rights, et cetera. And it can be difficult for people to speak out, especially when they're CEOs of companies, you're fighting for talent. Why do you think it's important for people in the space, specifically in technology, to speak out about human rights and things like that? I I don't do it because of this. I do it because of principles and because, you know

1:07:33 We also have a family history and I I understand what people uh in in Gaza going through right now, and I really care about that. But I also think that Um You know, the

1:07:45 the corporate world, the market has has changed in that w when you stand for something, I think there's actually There's there's an effect where maybe you you might be certain people don't want to work with you or don't want to invest in you. But there are other people that might be attracted to that, right? So I think the you know, people are no longer sort of attracted to these, you know, bland corporate brands.

1:08:06 And the faces behind these companies I mean, thanks to LinkedIn and things like that, are becoming more important than the brands themselves. And as humans we care about things. And if you're If you just have no opinions and you're just no one has no opinions, right? And so um I I think a lot of people come to work at Repli because

1:08:27 They know I care about these things and people want to invest in Replib because They know we stand for certain things, and and I think Silicon Valley is no longer the underdog as well. Like Silicon Valley is now the mainstream. People look to us for leadership, but they also when we do certain things that are not conducive to society They're gonna they're gonna come and try to burn us at the stake. And so it's important for for us to kind of take that

1:08:52 uh the role that we're playing seriously. Yeah, I I completely agree. And I think actually Think of humanity first. Mm-hmm. That's part of the principles. No s uh

1:09:03 Alleviate suffering, uh economic enablement and part of what I love about Replit is economic enablement across the entire world. And society. What's the organization on which we live together and so and then industry. By the way, industry is super important. I've you know it's been my entire life. But thinking about those, even when you're a industry leader.

1:09:22 You should not abandon the fact that you're also humanists and you're also a member of a society. That's right. Absolutely. On that basis of frame. What are some of the Really important things we should do.

1:09:34 Leaders in Silicon Valley and the tech industry. Make sure that technology is spreading compassion too. And one of the problems with some of the social networks is it's you know rage and engagement, like baiting and so then but yet That is not who we aspired. to become as individuals in society.

1:09:51 So What do we do? to grow empathy, to grow compassion. What what what are some of the ideas that you might have kicked around on this? W one thing I try to do on our business is uh align our business model. With something that allows us to be

1:10:07 Good in the world? Um, and so you know, Replit benefits when people's lives improves through, you know, the software that that they're building or they're create or the business they're creating or how they're improving their business. And so I've always been really inspired. My businesses that create like a game theoretic win win win situation, right? Like when you think about platforms, like you know, Shopify is an amazing business where the company's winning The entrepreneurs are winning and consumers are winning. Not every business is like that. There's a lot of businesses where consumers are losing or s someone is getting exploited.

1:10:42 But by the way, the best businesses are the win win win businesses, right? Um So I think one of the you know, speaking of modes and things like that, one of the early strategic decisions that you can make is what is the business model? Uh and try to try to actually kind of write down it's usually you know, different constituents, uh, usually the company

1:11:03 The users, may maybe the uh the developers, whatever kind of business that you have. What situations or what business models allow you to create that that joint winning? So now we're moving to our rapid fire. That doesn't mean you have to answer rapid fire. This is the questions we we ask all of our guests. Um, is there a movie, song, or book? That Uh fills you with optimism. Of the future.

1:11:25 You know, a a a book that I think is is is amazing that it pulls together everything that I love. I really love learning about theory of consciousness, theory of mind, the philosophy of that I like computers and math and physics and all that. And like the human aspect to human stories, um

1:11:44 I am a strange loop by Douglas uh ho Hofsadder is is an amazing book. It's partly about his a book about his wife dying and their kids and and how how His personal story in that's also a book about him struggling with the concept of soul. And kind of try to understand it in a like a more secular way and a in like mathematical way.

1:12:05 it it goes through vignettes about like Girdle's incompleteness ther theorem or what that says about um about how consciousness is potentially like a loop and It's it's it's an amazing book. that tells you that like really everything is interconnected and we can't be technical or innovators without actually caring about all the other things that happens in our world. What is the question that you wish people would ask you more often?

1:12:32 Mm. I mean, this question is really fascinating. I mean, I I don't get to talk a lot about, you know literary or philosophical uh ins inspiration. So that that's a great one. Yeah, well and the strange loop is awesome. So where do you see progress or momentum Outside of Your industry, you know, tech. you know, kind of AI um vibe coding applications.

1:12:55 That inspires you. You know, I this is very fresh on my mind, but I I took a uh Demo a tour of a of a plane. And I was so surprised that they got to full automation. This is a TBM nine sixty. A turboprop plane.

1:13:12 Um And it Everything's automated, including landing. Mm. And there's not one neural network in it.

1:13:18 Mm. Mm. And so It it's surprising because like You know, uh in Silicon Valley we think that we sort of tapped out on

1:13:26 classical deterministic systems in terms of what you can do in terms of automation. But actually there are industries that are just slogging along. They don't just don't want to use neural networks as like too probableistic to so that was really fascinating. And it's like there's there's a lot more to go, even in the classical systems and the traditional technology that we have. So always our final question. Uh, can you leave us with a final thought on what you think is possible if everything goes humanity's way in the next fifteen years? And what's the first step to get there? The thing I think a lot about, and this is driven by my my history, my my family, is that anyone who has ideas should potentially be wealthy. Anyone who has ideas and can follow through and has the grits and has the moral upsanding and ha and can do the right things.

1:14:14 should be able I I think I think that's the true promise of capitalism. And I think, you know It's very easy to imagine the world. where it's like certain corporates that are controlling everything. and the business models are not aligned with humanity in such a way that it's like it's all based on spying on us and selling us the worst things that we desire. But instead in a world where uh where the tools create the decentralized power ability

1:14:41 to generate wealth for everyone in the world the entire world is sort of interconnected. I think people waking up in the morning And feeling Like tab dancing to work, like Jeff Basos. Like most ninety nine percent of people don't tap dance to work, right? Like so

1:14:57 Including me, like I love my job a lot, but I hate email. Like why hasn't anyone solved that, right? Like the technology is there, but like we you know, the tools have not uh are not there just yet. So uh rewarding work work that is more human allows us to to relate with one another. more creatively and uh and less siloing and less politics at work. But also the ability for anyone to generate ideas and build businesses. That's something I'd be really excited about. Amen. Yeah. Umjad. It's a great pleasure. We could have gone on

1:15:29 Thanks for making it. Thank you for having me. Possible. is produced by Pallet Media. It's hosted by Arifinger and me, Reed Hoffman. Our showrunner is Sean Young.

1:15:38 Possible. is produced by Tanasi Delos, Katie Sanders. Spencer Strassmore. I museum. Trent Barbosa and Tafadwa.

1:15:46 Nimorundwe Special thanks to Surya, Yalamanchili, Saida Sabieva. Ian Alice, Greg Biotto, Parth Patille. I'm Ben Rallis. And a big thanks to Ben Kasnoca and the Village Global team. Philip Smith, an action house.

1:16:00 Lorenzo Davis and Will Whitley at Static. and Caitlin Norrod and the team at Replit.

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