93 Rejections, One Revolution: How Indiegogo Changed Crowdfunding Forever

0:01 Yeah. Yeah. How much do you guys did you guys have to put in, three of you? I remember do you remember this, Slava? I remember each of us committing

0:16 Thirty thousand dollars. Which was a big Chuck of our savings. Mm-hmm. Yeah, we got offered some money and we turned it down. We were like We don't need your money at a low valuation.

0:27 We had this uh genius ID. In Q one we were gonna launch, by Q two we were gonna have momentum. And then we're gonna raise money in Q three two thousand eight. The market crash happened in two thousand eight. That idea went right out the window.

0:45 Welcome to How I Built This. A show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements. I'm Guy Roz and on the show today, how three founders came together to build Indiegogo.

1:08 A platform where people can fund movies, music, games, devices, even a new baby. Crowdfunding art or public projects isn't new. It dates back to at least the 1880s when tens of thousands of New Yorkers donated money to build the pedestal of a Statue of Liberty. But a little more than a hundred years later, the internet made crowdfunding way more efficient and way faster. And around two thousand eight, when the global financial crisis made traditional funding almost impossible,

1:47 The idea suddenly felt urgent. Crowdfunding went from a fringe idea to an enterprise approaching a billion dollars by 2010. Growing so quickly that some analysts predicted It might one day rival venture capital. Now before Kickstarter or Patreon or GoFundMe

2:08 There was Indiegogo. one of the first platforms to ask a radical question. What if Anyone. Anywhere could raise money for anything.

2:18 as long as it stayed within a few basic guardrails. The idea for Indiegogo came from frustration. from three co-founders who each knew what it felt like to hear the word no one too many times. Their early years building Indiegogo were full of the things you might expect in a story like this. Mismatched personalities.

2:39 Big debate and even some fights. More than ninety investor rejections? In many moments when the founders nearly shut the whole thing down. But the founders, Slava Rubin, Dine Ringelman, and Eric Shell We're just building a platform.

2:57 They wanted to build something that would hand power back to the crowd. and take power away from the gatekeepers. from the people who decided which ideas deserve to exist. In today's story, you'll hear from Danae and Slava. And long before they met

3:14 Both had been thinking of ways to make it easier for people without connections to get access to capital. Slavo was born in the former Soviet Union and immigrated to the US with his family when he was a baby. He grew up in the eighties and nineties in Pennsylvania. And when he was just fifteen years old. His dad died of cancer.

3:34 And Slava remembers the exact moment. Three years earlier. When the cancer was discovered. А ви плен баскбал токеде. He dove for the ball, uh, he hurt his back.

3:46 He's very athletic. Very athletic and he shouldn't hurt his back when he dives for the ball. So he had to go to the hospital. We found out that he had a vertebrae uh fracture, which was really weird. They did some more tests and they found out that he had multiple myeloma. Which is uh bone marrow cancer, which is what a affected that. Well.

4:07 So After he passed, at that point you, y your brother and your mom And tell me about I mean I can't even imagine. being fifteen and um going through that.

4:20 How did it affect your I mean, aside from just the devastating personal loss. What did it mean for Everything else like because if your dad's You know, passing.

4:31 Uh. was massively affected in peril. Yeah. It was challenging to deal with my dad getting cancer. His first year was pretty bad. His second year was really bad. And the third year

4:46 Ah, was you know absolutely terrible. Специфік, абі от home by myself. having to make sure that I properly deploy the morphine drip for any of his pain. Um so all of that sucked. It really put perspective into uh all of it. Um because my dad's passing and because we, you know, didn't really have a good Let's call it insurance and financial setup like good people who've been in America for a long time and know how to have all those

5:11 uh cushions and parachute set up. We didn't have any of that, so I went to the local public school. Uh, I was actually the only Jew at the local public school was uh it was its own experience, but There's lots of nice people in the world and there's some people that are less nice and You know, I got to interact with all of them. So when you um started college, I know you you stayed in in in the area and went to Penn, y you studied finance and you I think you went to to to Morton as an undergraduate. Um did you intend to like was it your sort of idea that okay, I'm gonna go to New York and go to Wall Street and

5:44 Getting to finance. Yeah, of course. You know,'cause there's like In the eighties, you grow up, finance is the way to become wealthy and become important and all that good stuff. I'm an eighties kid. I did study finance and entrepreneurial management. I was actually entrepreneurial even when I was a kid with uh sports cards. So I did get the finance degree major, but never actually practiced finance formally as a investment banker.

6:08 And one of the things that I read about is that you started a non profit to raise money for I guess research and how to battle myeloma. It was called Music Against Myeloma. And tell me what that was. You you had like concerts and and would raise money for it.

6:26 Yeah, so I was living in New York. Uh I I would kind of argue I was living the dream. Um Uh, or as the kids say, you know, bottles and models, you know, it was all fun, uh very Easy, I made way too much money for being really young. And I should have been really happy, but I wasn't really that happy and I had to kinda do some soul searching to understand why I wasn't happy and I think the main reason is I was never able to talk about my dad. Yeah. Um, you know, since my dad died, no one would ever bring it up. I would never bring it up. People didn't know if he was in jail, they were divorced, like

7:00 Who knows if he's alive or dead? It wasn't a topic I would discuss. So I just thought to myself, like, I need to deal with this, and the only way to deal with it is head on. And that was a catalyst of Me then I yeah partnered with the IMF, which is the international Myloma Foundation, uh not the monetary. Fund and yeah, we partnered and started doing all these different concerts and different fundraisers to Raise a bunch of money for my lumber research.

7:26 Well. Well. All right, Slava, I wanna I wanna pause for a second and turn to Danae um and and ask you a few questions. Um I know uh Dana you grew up in San Francisco. And when you were I I think still like a a teenager, you worked for your dad, right, who I I think had like a m a moving business of some sort?

7:44 Yeah. So is brick and mortar Uh hard work. Heavy labor. It's my first job.

7:52 He would put Put me in charge of crews. In high school. Mostly men on the cruise, mostly men who had lived pretty pretty hard lives. Um, made some bad decisions, but

8:04 uh this was the the work that they could get and uh It was an opportunity for me. Two To lead a group of people. Um

8:15 That maybe I was a little bit more uncomfortable leading. But do it in a empathic way. Yeah. So that was my first Job. From what I gather, while y I know you went to college at at UN C in Chapel Hill. Um

8:29 And and you went Initially I guess you studied pre med and and and And that didn't work out, obviously,'cause you're not a doctor. You decided not to do that. Mm-hmm. But I guess while you were in college, your parents business

8:42 basically went belly up. Tell me what happened. The the moving business went bankrupt. I mean it's as simple as that. Um there was a recession. My dad couldn't get Get jobs and They couldn't pay the bills. So and e they had to refinance their house. They had already done that a few times. Um

9:01 So they had to just reorg And build back slowly. And Not get any credit. Not get any help.

9:10 Um, through it all they did not fire the most most loyal people. And I think in the end. After my father actually passed away, the one thing my mother Wanted to make sure of. Is when we

9:22 sold the business. She actually didn't care about the price tag. She just cared that the the company that bought it would keep her employees that had been loyal to her for thirty years. That was a lesson, um

9:37 To me personally about values and principles. Yeah. I guess oh one of the things that that you took away from your Your parents experience. Is that being financially secure or I g at least making money.

9:50 um became important to you decided to to take a job in finance at JP Morgan in New York. After you graduated. Um, and I guess somehow you got involved in a part of the finance world that was investing in movies. Like how how did that happen? Well I started off in the media and entertainment group and the sports group and so That kinda

10:12 gave me a purview into the world. of movies and film. From the business perspective. I mean I'd always gone to movies as a kid, but I never actually thought about the business behind it and somehow

10:25 discovered or got invited to this event called Where Hollywood Meets Wall Street. Like a mixer, like a networking event? Like a mixer and networking event. So I almost thought I didn't deserve to be invited, that it was kind of an accident, so I thought I should just go. And be a fly on the wall and just see what it Is like Right. And here you are, you're like what, twenty two, twenty three?

10:46 Mm. And you go in, you're like, Wow, they've invited me to this Hollywood meets Wall Street. Yeah. Yeah. And you're psyched and you get there. I'm psyched because I just wanna listen and I just wanna be this fly on the wall and See producers, what do they look like? And

11:02 Suddenly I I got barrage because somebody heard me heard the word JP Morgan come out of my mouth because I work there. And they just assumed I was this big financier. And suddenly everybody wanted to talk to me, and I was trying to explain No no no I'm the wrong person. I have no power. I have no power. I'm twenty two.

11:26 I'm an analyst, but you said JP Morgan, so all these people looking for financing like oh you're JP Morgan, let me give you my car, let me tell you about my screenplay of my film. And it wasn't and it wasn't big time producers. It was Striving producers. And

11:44 After that night I was kind of in shock. And just trying to digest it all. And two days later I just remember receiving a FedEx package. From one of the theater producers I had met that night. With a handwritten note.

11:58 That said, you know, it was wonderful to meet you. Here's here's the script. I look forward to talking to you about Funding my next Theater project. And here I was sitting at my analyst desk.

12:11 And I think I almost started to cry. Hm. This was a man in his sixties. who had been working his whole life

12:20 Bringing small Productions to life, both movies and small Theatre productions. Yet he was begging me. Само в носперієн.

12:30 Just the right name on the card. For money. Right. And that just felt so wrong. I I'm just curious,'cause you go to this thing, you meet these producers, they all want

12:42 Help with their films. But why did it like Why why did it Affect you emotionally. I think it was because I saw my parents work so damn hard all their life.

12:54 And they never really got a break. Uh I think there is one mini break that I thought my dad would get. He had actually come up with another uh business idea. Got flown to New York. Met with all these investors.

13:07 Yeah. And I just remember I finished a basketball game and he came to them he m made it to the game and He said I think this this one's gonna work D. I was just so grateful. This was in high school. And then the next I knew it, um

13:24 The investors had taken his idea and And Push forward with it without him. Do you remember do you remember what the idea was? Yeah, it was around energy efficiency.

13:35 I guess you asked me why was I emotional? Yeah. I think I just grew up With A hope or an optimism that

13:47 that life would be more fair and that you would be rewarded if you worked hard. Yeah. And it was it seems I think back a lot now, years later, it Perhaps was a bit naive. But it was It's what I felt.

14:02 Yeah. When I saw my parents working so hard and never getting a break and I did I was a scholarship kid at a private high school in San Francisco and You know, I s I saw money.

14:14 Um I saw people with money. And I saw the interconnected network of that. And then here I was Slowly trying to

14:24 potentially break into that myself on Wall Street. Also at the same time never feeling like I really fit in. There was Um just a sadness that hit when When that guy was begging me for money. When Yeah.

14:40 I knew he Was worthy of it. But I Can it make a difference at that point. So I ended up working with him.

14:47 And he was doing a I think he was doing like an Arthur Miller play, right? Is that is that the sp and And did you help him? Get the financing for that play? So I failed. Mm-hmm.

14:58 But I tried. So the goal was to produce a concert reading. Of of the play in an in a off broad way. Then you.

15:07 Yeah. And I got the producers there and everybody loved the play. It was a standing ovation. And I turned to the producers at that point said, All right, do we have Do we have something here? And they said, This is an amazing play. We're not gonna invest. Good luck. Yeah. And that was the moment that I realized that there was

15:24 a huge room of people that wanted this thing to happen, yet they didn't have the power to make it happen and and was all dependent on one person. To say yes. And that was the Inequity. That

15:35 drove me to eventually start indiegogo. Alright, so you eventually move back to the Bay Area. Yep. um to do your MBA. And was your I w when you got to Berkeley in this in two thousand six Did you have an idea of what you wanted to do with at the time or not quite yet?

15:55 Yeah, no, it what drove me back to business school was to start Something that would Make the funding process more democratic. And my initial idea was a fund. Actually, with a democratic twist where the investors could be lots of people putting a little bit in.

16:13 And then there was a democratic process to actually vote on what would get invested in. Got it. Okay, and and business school winds up being pretty important because that's where you would meet another student again named Eric Shell

16:27 join you in in founding Indiegogo. Um, but Eric was also the one who introduces you to Slava, Uh he was friends with Slava from before And I guess what? Like one weekend Slava comes out to the Bay Area from New York for a visit and and and Eric introduces the two of you? Yeah. I remember the weekend. Slava, you came out.

16:51 We started talking and I actually think we were at the lookout point for the Golden Gate Bridge, if I remember correctly. And I go into my okay, here's what I wanna do with Um With this idea to help. Uh basically bring more projects to life, but with a more democratic twist.

17:08 You said well I remember this, Slava, you probably do too. If you really want to Democratize access to capital, why aren't you using the internet? Hm.

17:18 Yeah, I I said if you wanna change finance you can do it in the finance world. So I was like I kept on saying that and I said you probably want to use the internet And then I actually looked at Eric and was like I thought you I thought you said this guy was smart because I really wasn't like um.

17:33 Again, my background connected to this is My dad died of cancer and I tried to raise a bunch of money and I was using MySpace and PayPal and email, which is really painful to try to get people to contribute towards a bigger project. That bigger project could be the movie that Danae was referring to, it could be anything. And I thought wow, that could be a big idea. Right. And this is like

17:56 When I I mean the term crowdfunding It may have been co I think it was actually coined at that point, but nobody had heard that term. It was not a doesn't exist in in in sort of popular consciousness. And and that wasn't really what what you were talking about anyway, initially. It was like

18:14 The The challenge you were trying to solve was How do we make capital available In a more democratic way. even the playing field it when it comes to access to capital to start something.

18:26 That's exactly right. I actually Uh talked about YouTube. I mean, I just thought that if YouTube is able to let anybody put up anything and let the data and the momentum get the best of to rise to the top. You know, that could happen for money. And

18:43 You know, YouTube seemed like it was growing really fast and it was really interesting new product. uh and kind of a a derivative off of MySpace and what was happening all there. Why not move this towards You know, the movement of money.

18:56 Yeah, for me it was The ability to let the people decide. What should be funded. And it It also meant that it

19:04 You didn't have to be huge to be successful. Like maybe you are a small project and you just need a hundred people to support you and that should That deserves the same right to exist as A large film.

19:16 And that was where meritocracy kind of came through, like let the idea. succeed based on how good of an idea it was to others versus on how good of an idea it was to A gatekeeper. And clearly Danne, you started to s to say or think, I I'm assuming, okay, this is interesting, maybe we should

19:35 use you know, figure out how to scale this to the internet. Tell me about your th your thinking around this. Like how did your understanding of what this could be evolve. Well You know, I think I I think that meeting with Slava

19:48 Was probably some time around November. October. Of two thousand six. Two thousand six. And I had to present something in one of my entrepreneurship classes. Like end of

20:01 November. Like Two or three weeks or something from that moment. And so I had spent the entire semester refining this old idea, as I call it. But then this new idea or new twist. Yeah.

20:15 And I remember going to my професор. And saying how do I decide which way to go. And he said Well, what are you more excited about?

20:28 And I said well clearly this new direction. But I know nothing about the internet. He said, Well that's your answer. Well we come back in just a moment. Indiegogo launches, and then

20:41 Stalls out. right after the financial crisis hits. Stay with us, I'm Guy Roz, and you're listening to How I Built This. Hey, welcome back to how I built this. I'm Guy Raz. So it's around 2006, and Danae Slava and their friend Eric Shell are kicking around a new idea for a business.

21:14 a crowdfunding platform that will live on the internet. When I connected with Eric and Danae, uh I really did think this wasn't just another coffee shop that hey, we could have a small business. I thought this was A really high risk, high reward type of thing, which I'm very attracted to. I'm attracted to being able to have failure or get some great results. I had a ton of respect for Eric. I thought he was really smart. Ah, plus he was a technical person, which I love.

21:42 I had met Denet, she seemed really smart. Eric already really liked Danae. Um, so we had three people that wanted to explore it. Plus we had this institution, which is Berkeley, uh, to kind of help us think through some of the R and D process. So it was almost like free testing, if that makes sense. Yeah. So we were doing this free testing and as we were getting past some of the uh concerns

22:07 I was like, Yeah, let's do this. And Slava, did you I mean, you mentioned this idea of like high risk, high reward. Um when how did you start to model out Uh

22:18 Again, we're talking about two thousand six and seven, and so at this point I should remind everybody that nobody thought about business models then. People just thought about accumulating followers and and then you'd figure out the model later. Did you guys also think about that way, or did you in your mind, Slavit, did you think okay, and here's how we're gonna make money? Did you have that mapped out? I mean we did. It wasn't like that hard to

22:41 really figure it out. I mean you had eBay already, which was you had GMV through the business and eBay took a cut of the money. Right. You had YouTube, um Not YouTube specifically, but you had different potential advertising platforms, et cetera. But our very high level point of view, which fast forward twenty years later, it's actually Pretty much the same. was money will go through the platform and you can get a cut. Exactly.

23:05 That's how Visa and MasterCard and Square and Amex make money. There were lots of other ideas. But trying to have a business model was not So hard to figure out per se.

23:17 Right. So social enterprise, do good and do well. Right, or do well and do good. I can't remember what the order is. I mean the initial idea was crowd was equity crowdfunding, w what we call today equity crowdfunding, where people could you know, contribute to a project, let's say it's a movie, and then they would own a piece of it, they'd get a return on it, but that was not possible to do at the time, right? It was not possible because the the laws wouldn't be changed for another ten years. Um so how are you going to create incentives

23:47 for people to give money to somebody for their project. How how did you think about all right, let's let's we can't do the equity. People are gonna have a cut of the the returns, but we gotta incentivize them to donate to a project. We we also did explore is there any SEC loopholes we could get around? So at the and when when we're first starting, we were actually were thinking investments, like Full on investment. And we

24:10 We the benefit of being in business school is we had all these Supporters. Classmates. coming from their industry is we had a bunch of lawyers show up and Help us try to nitpick through the laws and figure this out.

24:23 I do remember at one point There was a path. But we realized that we would have to maybe change some laws and prove this concept of raising money on the internet. And we decided let's just do one thing at a time. Because

24:40 Simplification here is It's paramount. Right. If you try to change too man move too many boulders at a time, you're gonna fail. So That's where we came up with the Perks concept. As A way to

24:54 enable people to get something for their early contribution. And we weren't sure what would the right perks would be. Yeah. But it was conducive to filmmaking because there are so many of these um natural Uh benefits that you can get. premier, go to the premier, you could meet the director, stuff like that. Okay, so there's rewards that you would get for being part of the project. Slava You meet in in the fall of two thousand six and you spend the next kind of year and and and several months

25:23 grinding into this idea and seeing how to get it off the ground. Did you uh did you uh any of you guys talk about let's go out and raise some money for this thing? I mean you two business school students access to, you know, maybe at least face you know, pitching competitions with VCs and stuff. Uh tell me about about that process.

25:44 Yeah, as a matter of fact, we were already trying to network our way to different uh film conferences, movie festivals, et cetera, et cetera. And we even had a few folks that wanted to give us money. Actually before the company even launched. I believe we even end up getting media Before the launch. But yeah, we got offered some money and we turned it down. We're like

26:07 We don't need your money at a low valuation. We had this uh genius idea. Which was we were going to in Q one we were gonna launch, by Q two of two thousand eight, we were gonna have momentum. Uh VCs are suckers for momentum and media. So we were gonna have media in Q three, and then we're gonna raise money in uh Q three two thousand eight. Off of our momentum and our media.

26:31 Uh the market crash happened in Q three two thousand eight and that Uh idea went right out the window. I got you. I guess the idea was, even though you had some people offering you money, You said no, let's wait. We can fund this ourselves. Were the startup costs high? It's all relative, but they weren't so high. We

26:52 You guys all pooled money your your own money. Yes, it was all our own money. Yes. How much do you guys did you guys have to put in, three of you?

27:01 I remember do you remember this, Slava? I remember each of us committing Thirty thousand dollars. Of our own money. Which was a big Chunk of our savings.

27:11 Or at least for me. Yeah. We actually didn't Raise a dime for was it four years? Three years. For years.

27:20 Let's talk about division of labor. How did you guys decide did you decide who was going to do what? Did you have like sort of formal roles like I'll be CEO, I'll be CTO, I'll be CMO or a or not. Not having that discussion. I think v roles kind of fell naturally.

27:38 I just remember doing a lot of the finance and customer legal, all the fun stuff. The customer stuff was fun. 'Cause we didn't have any. So I had to go find them. Slav, you kinda fell into the sales marketing strategy.

27:53 Rules. And Eric was the builder. Yeah. And I always tell the story that Eric is the hands, uh, Danao is the heart, and I was the eyes, and we just all work together because Eric would be the guy who kinda made the stuff.

28:06 Uh, Danae was always the one who had the heart in terms of the customer and like the operations and making it all run well. And I was kind of looking forward typically. Um, how did you guys Well, I there were definitely some personality clashes. Slava and I probably had the most.

28:28 It took a while to just get used to how we operate. Uh you know, y clearly Slav is incredibly direct. Doesn't beat around the bush. Very efficient in his communication. Sometimes

28:40 People need more than that. To really feel like they understand him. Eric. Speaks much less than the two of us. Very quiet.

28:50 But incredibly cerebral. And thanks for everything and listens incredibly well. So he often played mediator. A bit? Both in terms of helping us understand each other.

29:04 As well as Uh appreciate each other. Yeah. I do remember Eric saying we were standing outside late at night after class once. Before Slava got involved, and he asked me directly

29:16 Do you consider yourself A number one person or a number two person. What'd you say? And I couldn't answer. Interesting.

29:26 And I think I go back to that moment because I think I wanted to think of myself as a number one person, but maybe I'm better at being a number two person. So it it left me with some Unanswered questions then and I think That uncertainty was part of the struggles.

29:47 Well the W arose in those moments of conflict with Slava. Yeah. Slavic, you're gonna say? Yeah, I I

29:55 I have always been, and even back then I'm sure more. very action oriented and just like let's do stuff and if it fails, it fails, we'll just fix it. It's okay. Right. So no doubt there were some challenges. But it was good because Danae would challenge one of my thoughts and it would make me have to be really good about answering the question.

30:17 Which is I gotta come like strong with my answers, knowing like the facts and really have done the research, as opposed to just like push through nonsense. Uh, which ended up being great. Alright, you guys Are ready to launch this thing. Bye.

30:35 two thousand eight. January two thousand eight. And you come up with a real I think a really interesting idea given that you initially are focusing on films and and and creative projects You decide to use Sundance. Tell me about

30:50 This launch strategy you guys came up with. We'd uh been to Sundance. Uh I've been to Sundance, Eric's been to Sundance, so we know that it's kinda mecha. for independent film. We thought

31:02 That we would align quicker with the independent market. In terms of trying to access film. as opposed to getting these huge blockbusters to wanna work with us. And what I I have to imagine the reception was amazing because there are all these people go to Sundance to get their films funded, only a fraction of them actually get funding. So what was the reception like?

31:24 It was great. We filled the room. It was a pizza parlor. Yeah, we had a party. We you know had guerrilla marketing. We actually had this funny uh

31:33 play where we gave people love swag at at Sundance, you know,'cause there's all these companies trying to market. So we created scarves. Uh we gave away scarves with go go bucks. Ah, which was we invented this concept of If you sign up using this card, you'll automatically get some free money. You don't know how much you're gonna get. It's gonna be between five dollars and five hundred dollars on every card. Uh and what we really did there was every card only had five dollars, except one card had five hundred dollars. Um and everybody then got five f free dollars to put into one of these uh campaigns.

32:05 And obviously some people only use the five, but other people use more. And it was a great catalyst and we got a lot of buzz really in terms of media attention. And then people started being interested. I mean I have to imagine that these producers, especially young producers like you guys are gonna say this industry. Like what do you remember, Danae?

32:24 I remember being Very um Yes, popular among the really emerging filmmakers. I bet. But I do remember the more Established filmmakers. Kind of turn turning their noses on us.

32:40 Hm. Oh, you're a cute little idea for the update coming. Okay, so but you have this launch, you've got a website out there. How many projects did you have on the site initially? Like Ten, fifteen, twenty, five, how many? We had ten.

32:54 Okay. movies or All of'em were films. Mm-hmm. And the idea was

33:01 uh we're gonna put like just like we know it now, you're gonna put a number out and we have to raise this money and And if you don't raise the money, you don't get the money. If you do raise the goal you You do get the money, is that how it worked? Tell me, explain how it worked. That's exactly right. Which was we created this concept of These people are trying to raise ten thousand dollars for their movie. If they raise the ten thousand dollars, they're gonna receive this ten thousand dollars. If they only raise eight thousand or one thousand, everybody's gonna get their money back. So there's incentive to hit the goal.

33:31 And our tagline was D Wo. Do it with others. Do it with others, okay. It launches. Ten projects? What are they raising? How much b on average do what do you guys remember?

33:43 They were trying to raise like 10K plus minus. Our second film, Tapestries of Hope, raised twenty five. Got it. Okay. So you guys launched in January of 2008. couple months later you got the Bear s the Bear Stearns thing, some some rumblings in the market, but it's still two thousand eight and you know uh and but you have this plan, which I think is a very smart plan. We'll launch Q one, Q two, we'll have all this media attention, we'll have to s we'll get to start to get some profit from the cut we're getting from. uh it'll be like a flywheel. It will just attract more and then Q three will go out and raise money and we'll have a high valuation. Well Q three

34:19 Turns out to be Uh coincide with the greatest cra market crashes. It's the Great Depression. Right. uh a financial crisis and and a market crash and the perfect storm of things and and uh mortgage crisis

34:36 Tell me what happens. You you guys have this great website that's getting a lot of attention. But now When you go to raise money. What happens? Yeah, I mean crickets, um it was hard for anybody to raise money for anything.

34:49 We definitely got a lot of nose. Danae, w tell me about w w tell me what you remember about trying to raise money,'cause you were going to these pitches What were they like? Well, actually Slava ended up taking on most of that. At the time, I mean my my memory's a bit fuzzy'cause right after the market

35:06 Crashed, my father died. Mm. And That was a moment for me to step back I had to step back for a couple weeks. Slav and Eric just completely jumped in and took over. Yeah.

35:18 Yeah. I just lost my father, who was my biggest coach and mentor. But he saw you guys launch this thing. He did. You know, he was supportive, but he also was saying be very practical and realistic. Don't

35:30 Don't just fool yourself that You have a nice pretty idea, but who cares if you can't make money? Yeah. So I just remember Getting clarity on Do something meaningful. Yeah.

35:41 And this was meaningful. So Slava, when you when it became clear to you in the fall of two thousand eight that you were not gonna be able to by the way, how many do you do remember how many VCs you pitched? Yeah, we got ninety three no's before we got a yes. Wow. Oh

35:55 Wow, that's a lot of nose. That's a lot of pitches. I mean, getting a lot of rejection it doesn't help the ego. Uh but Twitter was Really interesting.

36:06 Because people were starting to talk about Indiegogo on Twitter. And I'd be listening to Tweet Deck. And people would mention Indiegogo. And somebody would say, for example, like I would track how the conversation went. I was like, Hey do you want to go to this music festival this weekend? They would say, No, I can't work in my Indiegogo video. What's your indiegogo video? Yeah, I'm trying to raise money from my movie. Oh that's cool, I'll come help.

36:27 And I remember just thinking to myself, like You know, their lives, the two of them. Changed for this weekend. Because of the product that we created. And they're excited about doing their Indiegogo video. And for me

36:40 That was just like this wind in the sails, you know, it's like we're going in the right direction. Like people that we do not know that they don't need to be nice to us. А такива ас. Say that our weekend is gonna be different because of Indiegogo. And I just thought to myself like All these people can reject us as much as we want. Like these customers are saying they like it.

37:00 So we have to look ourselves into the mirror and just say You know, do we want to bootstrap this further, deal with our own savings. There was this opportunity cost of how much time do you spend doing this thing that might become a big fat zero. And how long are we gonna be willing to do this until we can't do it anymore? When we come back in just a moment.

37:21 As the business starts to grow, The founders start grappling with people problems, with their employees, and with each other. Stay with us, I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This. Hey, welcome back to how I built this. I'm Guy Raz.

37:55 So it's the fall of two thousand eight and it seems like nobody wants to invest in Indiegogo. So Slava and Dine are asking themselves How long can we keep this thing going? when it was clear you were not going to be able to raise money. How how much runway did you think you guys had before you would run out of money? Runway. I love this.

38:18 So the way people think about uh running out of gas is they actually look at their gas tank and they actually look at the meter go down. So eventually the meter is at zero, so they now have no gas. But if you have no meter. Nothing gets to go down. You only get to decide based on how far you want to push the car. So there is no concept of runway. We have no money.

38:40 We just have our own savings and just trying to decide whether or not we want to keep on investing or going into more debt. Poor m I gotcha. But we did have very frequent Conversations like Are Gonna keep going or not? And it was one of those we just let's

38:56 Let's discuss it next time. We know no one really wanted to make the decision. And we were all adjusted our lifestyle to be very frugal. Do you remember a moment'cause you're you know, you're now into the getting into two thousand nine and the economy is getting worse and worse. In two thousand nine was Just a horrible year, you know. Do do either of you remember a moment

39:19 Or you had to decide. Let's keep going or let's end this. Absolutely. I mean, we're like middle of two thousand nine. Personal balance sheets are running low.

39:30 And You know, we're all talking about How are we going to be running our own lives, like having enough cash in our own lives to do whatever it is we need to do, whether it's pay the rent or buy breakfast, whatever it is. And

39:44 We eventually just decided this is our last stand sort of thing. We committed to sales and we upgraded the product in terms of design. And we said this is the last stand and if this works, it works. If it doesn't work, we might have to actually shut down. Dina, do you remember the stress of that period of time creating tension between the co founders or did it actually bring you guys together? It didn't

40:10 It was not the source of tension, no. I actually think that probably Brought us together. Because you're in a foxhole together. Yeah.

40:19 I mean I remember Feeling Lucky that my mom wasn't charging me rent. And feeling bad for Eric that he had to pay it. So you didn't feel bad for me.

40:31 And and you slide. But I do remember feeling like We were avoiding the question, or I was avoiding the question. Because I didn't want to accept shutting down. Yeah.

40:44 I I I wonder if one of the decisions you guys took in two thousand nine was to open up the platform. So now it was no longer just specific to film or creative things, but it was any any anybody anything. Was that a was that tied to to was that part of the plan initially or was that tied to the f to the e economy and just wanting to Grow as quickly as possible. Slava. Since day one, the idea was to democratize it for all funding ideas.

41:08 We just started with film because trying to take a You know, page out of the playbook of Amazon. You know, starting with books only and then expanding to other stuff. Right. It's really funny because I would try to be raising money from VCs in two thousand eight or early two thousand nine. And I would talk to them and they say listen

41:26 We don't fund the film stuff. Like we're not a film platform, we're a funding platform. Right. Those same VCs later where we open up to everything come knocking and they're like This is amazing. You're like funding everything. So it's like fascinating how people's minds

41:41 Work. Unless you actually shoot to them. They have a hard time, most people, abstracting what it is that we're trying to accomplish here. So yeah, it was a hundred percent part of the plan. Honestly, it was like hockey stick growth. Like Almost immediately after that.

41:59 And by the end of two thousand ten I read you had like uh you'd you'd hosted over ten thousand campaigns and from all over the world All kinds of campaigns. Here here's my question though, right? You're a platform, anybody could launch a campaign to raise money. And Uh but the couple challenges. The first is you just can't at this point you're not vetting all of them because you just don't have the capacity. So you don't probably know exactly what everyone is trying to raise money for. The second challenge is Unless it's funded, you guys don't get paid. It's sort like or being a real estate agent. If you don't make the sale

42:35 You don't get a you don't get a Uh uh The commission. So you have an interest in seeing campaigns that are going to succeed. But if I was on the team, I might have said, why don't we curate these to make sure we only get campaigns that were like, you know, sixty, seventy percent sure gonna work. Otherwise we're just We're just platforming these things that are

42:55 You know That we don't benefit from. We've we we believed in open You you would have kicked me out right then. You'd be like out the door. Philosophically, we couldn't become the big gatekeeper.

43:07 Right. Otherwise, what's the point of all of this? Fair enough. We were trying to accomplish something in the world. And the thing that we were trying to accomplish is to have an open platform where people can have the world decide what deserves to get funded.

43:20 Not move, you know, who's the decision maker, like Danae said. So I know later on this would change, but w but initially i it just from a business perspective, Slava. Why didn't you say from the beginning We're just it doesn't matter what you raise.

43:36 You'll get the money. And I know you would change that policy later, but But why did it have to be fully funded? In other words If somebody was trying to raise ten thousand dollars, they only raise five thousand Why not let them keep the money and then you guys still get a cut of that?

43:51 I mean that's a perfectly fair idea and debate. Looking back, that's not how we thought about it up front. We thought it'd be much better to have to hit your target. Um, but your point is a really good question. We potentially could have started that way. Um, but there's really a power to each of the models, both a kind of hit your target. And get your money or get your money no matter what.

44:11 And were you guys I mean I know you you weren't didn't have like Scobs of cash coming in, but were you profitable? Pretty quickly.

44:21 Um not instantaneously, but by the time we're raising and actually getting everybody to say yes, we're right there. Yeah. You were one of the rare startups that actually had Profitability. You know, as part of the uh concept of Are we gonna keep existing?

44:36 Right. We needed to be able to make enough money. to actually personally exist. Right. So

44:44 If we knew that there was no way to get external capital. It was really just a very efficient way of saying okay, we need to make money. I mean it's it's interesting to me because I think Just sort of from a thirty five thousand foot. Perspective?

44:59 This seems like a no-brainer. It's like when There's a project and people are gonna support it. Then all you're gonna get cut. So Yeah.

45:09 It seems like it would be really attractive to investors, although I guess their c their pushback was well how do we know people are really gonna want to support these projects? Yeah, I mean it's easy to say that now sixteen, seventeen years later. It's all very obvious today. But in the moment you have to underwrite a lot of risks. You have to underwrite

45:30 whether or not you could acquire the funders, whether or not people are actually gonna do what they say, how much fraud is there gonna be in the industry, how much is this gonna turn off everybody. You know, what's competition look like? So Um there's plenty of risks. You know, most VCs don't actually want to do risky things. They want everything de risked.

45:49 And then they just wanted to invest on the upside. Okay, you needed to raise money, presumably because you needed to hire people, you needed to do marketing, y I mean customer acquisition costs, you know, you were an issue and you wanted to even though you were getting media attention, you needed money. And I guess by September of two thousand eleven you finally raised your first round. It's about a million and a half dollars. Next year if you launch a series A

46:15 And you raise fifteen million dollars. And and I have to imagine that was a much different experience than it was in t in the fall of two thousand eight and into nine. When you're trying to raise money initially. It was the exact opposite. Uh I I was going from all partner meeting to all partner meeting to all partner meeting. Um

46:33 In the same way, You weren't even talking to the junior people who are just there to like Filter this through. Exactly. You're talking to the you're talking to the decision makers now. In the same day. most of them will come back with yeses and term sheets, et cetera.

46:46 And it was fascinating. Meantime I think there's one I mean, some of these campaigns that that are on the site are getting all kinds of attention. I mean any time there's an interesting one like Tanay there was one I think in two thousand eleven help the Haley's have a baby. They they basically use the platform to raise money for IVF. D was that funded?

47:06 Yeah. And the baby was born. And this was you guys called this the it was called the first world's first crowd funded baby. It was amazing. It was amazing because it was a testament to our belief that if you give

47:19 The world choice. and the opportunity to fund what matters to them. They will. So you guys Raise this money and w tell me about the fifteen million dollars. What what did that enable you to do?

47:33 I'm assuming hiring, I'm assuming marketing. Tell me a little bit about how you started to use that money. Yeah, we just level up on everything. We Um for the first time now start bringing in experiencing your talent. And we started going from that scrappy garage company to being a real company.

47:52 Uh pretty quickly. what roles did you guys take on formally? Slava, what was your I'm CEO. Your CEO, okay. And today? I think I was C O O.

48:03 That was a hard transition. Why? Because I had to give up. A lot. Mm

48:09 When you're working so hard to hang on to everything. Doesn't fall apart. You have a very tight grip. And so it was a process of letting go of control and tr and learning to trust.

48:24 All three of us as founders uh are really evolving and having to deal with the growth, like Danae mentioned. So it used to be that the way we dealt with it was we are three Equal co founders, there's nobody else. Right. There's no titles. That's how s businesses start. Right. And we just debate and argue. Around Denis. Family dining room.

48:48 Right. Or in the kitchen. And Now You know, we're raising the A, the B, we're bringing on all these executives, everybody has to have more clear roles, people need to be empowered to do their jobs, people have to have like lines of responsibility, reporting structures, yada yada yada. And that is challenging for all of us because all three of us have our own founder instincts and we might want to resort back to the three of us arguing about something. But it's tricky because now this is this organization that has created itself that just hired this crazy senior executive from XYZ organization that

49:28 They don't want to be exposed to that. Right, if they didn't join. three founders in a garage, they join this thing that just raised a bunch of money that has these crazy growth numbers that they want to be part of that. System. So all of that takes a lot of growing for sure.

49:43 Mm-hmm. And we started to really um When we brought people on board. Not just do a kind of a cliche culture interview, but we actually had a pretty structured approach about understanding what drives the person and how they tick and what motivates them.

49:58 I know even if we you know hired a rock star, if they were an individual and they just wanted to go shine on their own, they would not be successful. And I think Uh I always questioned is this. Is this me just being in my head and theoretical? And is this really as important? I got pushback sometimes from

50:18 Slava or from other people. But then when I was out on maternity leave with My son, I think it was you, Slava, who you just called me and you said Can you just come back? And just be here.

50:32 And Remind people who we are. Slava, do you remember why you said that? I mean Dine's always been really good.

50:43 At um Thinking about people And we potentially would be uh talking in ways or hiring people that were too mercenary or transactional. I'll never forget actually similar but different. Which is

50:59 To come up with our values which I thought was a uh poor use of time Which obviously was not a poor use of time. It ends up being a very valuable use of time. But We actually did a exercise where we drew the things that we thought we wanted as our values and then we shared all of that with each other. Which I just kinda went through the motions to do it because then they asked us to do it and I was trying to be nice. But I actually did it, you know, with all my effort and then by the time we were done, I was like, Oh, this is actually pretty interesting and it was great.

51:28 Mm. And every now and then we needed some more dinner. I know that the the ethos was Indiegogo's an open platform, right? But now that you've had serious behind you and venture firms that are sensitive about oh you know

51:44 I wonder and now you've l a lot more employees, I wonder whether you started to build Guardrails around what you would accept and not accept. Like for example there was a a a group that was I guess in trying to raise money to

52:00 Uh they it was a climate apparently a climate change denial group, right? And and they were trying to raise money on the platform and you guys came under pressure To remove them. from the site because, you know, that was people felt offended by it. But that would be a lot, that would be okay, right?

52:18 Yes. So um We definitely got to deal with the cutting edge of people's opinions. Free speech. What is appropriate. In my opinion, the way we try to navigate it.

52:31 Is Just be fair. Yeah. Treat everyone the same. And I think most actually respected that. Which is

52:40 For every you know, too far to the left, let's call it. We had something way too far to the right. Or for everything that was too much pro this topic, we had something that was very anti this topic. And that doesn't mean that we were looking for those things because we want to have the counterbalance on the site. It's because the site was open that it just attracted these projects. And that was the way I kind of dealt with it. Um We took some guidance and

53:07 It's through the terms. That We just did some basic things like no one should be hurt here. No one should promote hatred and things like that. But actually end up becoming More of an issue is

53:20 Less about people Trying to do Bad. You wanna it's a subjective term, but It was more about misusing the product to try to raise money for fraud or something. So that actually

53:33 Something That became more of the prominent issue that we had to tackle. much earlier than People using it for things that maybe we didn't particularly care for.

53:46 Yeah. Um, today I I want to ask you about About your decision to Step down. in in twenty eighteen. I mean you you stayed on the board

53:56 But y you decided that you didn't want to be involved in the day to day anymore. Can you talk a little bit about about that time and and what led to that decision. Yeah. I uh

54:08 was pregnant with my second child I was One of the things we had to do Та вознат і на план was um Move to Norway. Which is where my partner was from.

54:20 For a few different reasons. And then I stayed. And I was doing all my meetings in midnight to three and getting up for burnt you know, kindergarten at six and It was um very difficult. Lifestyle.

54:37 Yeah, and I also did feel less impactful. You know, I couldn't I didn't couldn't read between the tea li tea leaves like I used to. Yeah. And then at the time I think we also had Uh A CEO change and so it then just felt normal. There was a d Slava, you became

54:53 I think you became m you you transition to a different role, right? I w uh went from CEO to chief business officer. So w tell me about that decision. Wanted that you prompted Definitely not.

55:08 No. No, I mean that was uh me having uh debate with the board as to how we need it to grow. I really wanted to uh create a massive company. And I really thought we had the opportunity to create the Airbnb. of uh crowdfunding because it should all be consolidated under one roof. There should be all to be well all these verticals.

55:27 Um, and I got into a debate with the board and I I didn't win that debate. So they asked they basically said we want a new C we want a new CEO. That's correct. You know, I I think that founders are very important as part of growing a company. And

55:43 If you take out the founders too early. Don't get wrong, you don't need to have a founder at the company like Mark Zuckerberg is still there. There's not so many Mark Zuckerbergs. Uh, but if you take out a founder too early, I do think you handicap the potential of the future of that company. Um And I think you see that with some of the results of Indiegogo. So I was sad that happened for myself.

56:05 And I was sad that it happened for my co workers. And I was definitely sad that it happened for the overall potential for what Indiegoga could be. So y so you both of you guys and I think Eric leaves in May of two thousand nineteen, so all three of you are gone before Covid. Not on the day to day operational side. Here here's a big question for you, and it's a it's a bit of a sensitive question, but I think it's An important one which is

56:30 Wha what happened after that? I mean, if you look at Kickstarter, which was not as innovative It had much more limit many more limitations initially. It would go on to I don't know if it's I don't know if it's profitable today, I don't know what, but but but it would go on to Bring in more Money. What w what was Kickstarter doing right that K Indie Gogo was not doing?

56:52 I mean Kickstarter comes out, they have a good design experience, they have a curated product, so it's easier to just have upfront uh positive stories. But They Definitely don't scale as rapidly as they could either. You also have GoFundMe uh who does quite well. You have Patreon who does well.

57:12 You also have all the equity crowdfunding platforms. You have so many slices that really Indiegogo should have owned and be able to have that all under one roof. So basically as this whole industry grew, Indiegogo you you could argue miss an opportunity to own those verticals and own those spaces. I mean I think that's a massive understatement.

57:33 Then it should have owned them. we were in the position to own all of them and you know, we decided that we had to think too much about unit economics and profitability and I think that's a shame. Mm Y you know, both of you guys leave about ten years after launch. Two thousand eighteen. He launched in two thousand eight. And that year Indiegogo announced that it had done about a one point it raised about one point five billion dollars for different projects, which is a you know, a really nice milestone.

58:01 In twenty uh in twenty twenty five. Indigo gets acquired by A crowdfunding platform for board games called GameFound, which is You know, it's it's interesting. I mean it's surprising, right, given that at at one time Indie Yogo was sort of a huge cultural phenomenon, right? Like like w tell me about that acquisition. I mean I have to imagine they acquired it for

58:25 you know, less than than than the previous valuations. Yeah, so it's actually Ravensburger, which is a much more substantial European gaming company, which is kinda like a parent that kinda backs it. Yes. Uh but yes, it's uh quite remarkable. I would almost argue That Beyond the effort of people trying to stop Indiegogo from succeeding.

58:46 Indiegogo was able to succeed for as long as it's been and still succeeding today. I mean, V Cs in the early days tried to say no because we're not gonna give you money'cause you don't deserve it,'cause it's a bad idea. But the customers on their own were like, No, we're gonna use this. I still think there's huge opportunity out there. I mean with web three and crypto, all of these things are ripe for innovation still today.

59:09 I mean when you think about all the sort of challenges you guys went through in building this and then getting it to scale and then eventually um It's sort of

59:20 final chapters and what happened after. I mean how much of of what happened and and where it went with all the skepticism, do you attribute to the the the grind you put in and how much do you think had to do with just Luck and timing and just the right Moment. I think I mean if we didn't have the grind.

59:40 In the beginning nothing would've happened. It was it was three and a half years. Four years. About Um, before we are able to even start to pay ourselves.

59:52 Probably irrational. To continue at that point. You know, we had a head of PR at one. one point say It's so rare to have all the three founders still here.

1:00:04 at this point in the company. It is so rare. And she'd been through many startups. And I remember being surprised by that. I said, Really? That that's that's unusual. She's like, Yeah, it's quite unusual. And I think she said something like, It's just you guys care so much.

1:00:20 Slava. I don't really believe in like pure luck that much. I really believe that preparation plus opportunity equals luck. So putting in the work Then identifying the opportunity and you know, kicking it open if it's just a crack.

1:00:35 Yeah, I think a lot of people did a lot of great stuff to accomplish awesome things and that includes all the customers and all the funders having to step up to do all that stuff. Right. I I actually had a a phenomenal experience even just yesterday, which kind of resonates to all of this with different Which is I'm now a V C

1:00:52 And I like to invest into young, amazing people. They don't always have to be young, but it just so happened to be this entrepreneur that I was talking to yesterday who was twenty two. And I was wearing a code like a girl, my code like a girl sweatshirt, which is actually a code.org sweatshirt. Which was funded by Indiegogo. Which was funded on Indiegogo. Started on Indiegogo. So The young entrepreneur he says to мі I love your hoodie.

1:01:20 And I'm like, Yeah, it's code.org. He's like, No way I actually learned how to code. Starting with co dot org. Which was like fifteen years ago. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, this is like now generational as to how this like lives on. And there's tons of that because there's so many incredible companies and products and movies and music and

1:01:40 that all of this is now, you know, legacy in the world and continue to have its impact. Yeah. I mean that is Probably what I'm Most proud of.

1:01:49 Is Creating a place. For opportunity. And I think you know, I think back at how many people would say, Oh, how's your little project going? or Or getting all those rejections.

1:02:01 That's Lava took most of the brunt of the I think The word cute was used way more than once. To r to explain what we're trying to do. You know, I I think the world has fundamentally shifted.

1:02:14 To not be so arrogant. That a few people can decide. what should happen and what shouldn't. And I do think we were part of that. We weren't the only Piece of that.

1:02:25 um unraveling, but I think we were a key part of it. And I'd like to believe humanity's a little bit better off. For that. That's Indiegogo founders Dana Ringelman and Slava Rubin.

1:02:38 Since leaving Indiegogo, Slava started a venture fund and launched his own podcast. Meanwhile, Danae is still in Norway where she runs a mountain lodge with her partner. She says it's a pretty popular retreat for tech executives who are burnt out. and need to recharge. Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week.

1:02:59 please make sure to click the follow button on your podcast app so you never miss a new episode of the show. And if you're interested in insights, ideas, and lessons from some of the world's greatest entrepreneurs, sign up for my newsletter at guyRaz.com or on Substack. This episode was produced by Catherine Cypher with music composed by Ramteen Arablui. It was edited by Neva Grant. with research help from Chris Massini. Our engineers were Patrick Murray and Jimmy Keeley.

1:03:26 Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Andrea Bruce, Casey Herman, JC Howard, Sam Paulson, Carrie Thompson, Ramel Wood, and Elaine Coates. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to how I built this and don't stop the podcast just yet. Пиказ район You're about to hear an amazing small business story that you don't want to miss.

1:03:47 This segment is presented by American Express. With a business platinum membership? The best Just got even better. Today's story starts with a young man sitting in the corner booth of a hamburger joint in Boston.

1:04:02 It was like that kind of burnout eating where you're at the end of a really long shift and you're like I'm gonna shove this food in my face and be so happy and exhausted. That's Noah Wilson Rich. At the time, he was putting himself through graduate school by working multiple jobs. He was worn out, and he was starting to feel that even with a PhD, He'd have to keep on bartending and adjunct teaching forever. This was at the height of the 2008 financial crisis, and the teaching jobs he'd counted on just weren't there, especially for people like Noah who'd picked niche fields.

1:04:36 I was finishing up my PhD in bees. I was thinking What have I done? Yep. Bees. But here's the thing, Noah hadn't picked the wrong expertise. He just hadn't found a way to monetize it. Because around that time, people were starting to worry about a big problem.

1:04:54 Bees were dying on a massive scale. And a lot of people wanted to know how to save them. No one knew this because he was getting contacted almost daily by libraries and garden clubs, even some businesses. They were saying how do I get bees on my property? How can I get biodiversity on my empty rooftop? There was a marketplace developing that was hitting me over the head, and it got me thinking, huh? What if I could do that as a business. So he started a Facebook page and said, Hey

1:05:25 Wanna help the bees? Put some on your property, I will sell you the hive. and I'll volunteer my time to manage them in exchange for researching. You keep the honey, I keep the data. Anybody want some bees? And with that Facebook post, the best bees company was born. The first year, Noah had seven clients, then 12, then 65. Over time, the business model evolved. He started charging clients for the ongoing maintenance of their hives. You may have heard of companies that do that now, but in the late 2000s?

1:05:58 It was a novel concept. But still, growth comes with challenges, as Noah learned the first year he brought in a million dollars. I did not count on our expenses being 1.1 million. I thought This is too big for me. What am I gonna do? I should just go back to teaching, I should go back to bartending. And I said, no, I've nothing to lose.

1:06:20 So he got himself a business advisor who helped him grow responsibly and he kept going. Today, the Best Bees Company has 120 employees operating in 24 cities. And Noah's customers are still hungry for more. These days, they don't just want bees on their property, they want to turn unused green space into healthy bee habitats. So this past year, NOAA launched a spin-off company called the Biodiversity Lab to provide that service.

1:06:50 inspiring others to take part in this global movement, not just to save the bees, but to advance biodiversity. It's a full circle moment. That's Noah Wilson Rich, the founder of Best Bees. His story was presented by American Express. To build a business like no other, you need a car like no other. There's nothing like business platinum.

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