Blake Eastman: Learn to Read Anyone

0:00 This is the problem with relationships. Everybody has a different version of what a relationship is. And a lot of conflict comes from when two people have different ideas of what a relationship should look like. My uncle gave me this test and without fail it is predicted every divorce. And the test was so simple, it was like That is a huge red flag. The best paradigm for gates is storytelling. Never questions. So as soon as you get in the table not just like, hey how are you? It's just like the craziest thing just happened. You were on a double date with your wife and you met somebody for the first time and you were like they're cheating on their partner. How did you come to that conclusion? There was two things. One My guest on this episode of the podcast is Blake.

0:59 Eastman who has dedicated His entire life to psychology and nonverbal behavior. In 2009, He founded the Nonverbal Group, a behavioral research and education company in New York City, which conducts large-scale studies on human behavior and uses a wide range of technologies to systematically deconstruct and improve human communication.

1:24 In this episode, Eastman dives into a number of subjects revolving around how we communicate with one another, including the ability to read nonverbal cues, his thoughts on big talkers versus silent types. How we can communicate with our partners. Without complaining, the value of watching ourselves communicate on video Understanding the power structures is And social dynamics at work, and so much more.

1:53 It's time. To listen. and learn. I wanna start with how I can improve my ability to read. Nonverbal cues.

2:11 Yeah. Okay, it's a process. All right. So It starts with evaluating how you process behavior as it is. So it starts with your default approach. The the problem is this. We go down through life, we

2:25 have this like neural net in our head and it's based on all past model of all the interactions that we've had. And the truth is you have to understand how much you're wrong before you can improve the accuracy of what you're right on. So there's a lot of like pop science stuff or cultural biases or just experiences in your life that shifted the way that you view things. And the first is acknowledging all of that. That's like the first step, which is a pretty robust process, which I'll talk about. It's really looking at your perspective for life. and how you view social interactions.

2:54 And then after that, it's increasing your behavioral awareness. So this is just the ability to notice and pay attention to the shifts and the variation in somebody's behavior. and understand in real time the meaning you're deriving from it. So the truth is a lot of people

3:11 using body language experts will look at someone's behavior and be like, oh, like this this means this and this means that. That's not really what you're doing. I I think it's more about noticing than making meaning out of. So just like noticing. So for example, like noticing that the way that you're nodding your head at me right now, that is a facet of social coordination. You're showing me that you're listening to what I'm saying. It doesn't mean that you're quote unquote interested. But if we really looked at your head nods over the course of like a six month period, we could find out when you're genuinely are probably really interested in something when you're just socially coordinating because you all right, I gotta shake my head because this is interesting. So it's a multi-step process, but it really starts with confronting all your biases.

3:51 That's fascinating. How how does it work in terms of cues I might misread then? Because If I don't have knowledge of myself or a baseline of sort of how I'm approaching things and I'm just meeting you for the first time.

4:06 How how can I deal with that situation where are there obvious things I can do? What are the things that I'm more likely to misinterpret? I think people are m so first you have to understand where you are on this Threshold. Of I call it literals and contextuals. So there are certain people

4:23 That Alright, I can say these things three ways. I can say, Shane, how are you? I can say Shane. How are you? Like I say, Shane.

4:30 How are you? There are people out there that see no difference between those three things. They're all just Shane, how are you? And there's other people that over contextualize or try to extract more value from the tonal ships in what I'm saying. And the truth is most people over contextualize certain things. So for example, I'm someone who like on my team, there's a rule that no one could give me a one word response. So no one could ever say yes or no. It has to be like yes, emoji, yes, gif, or something like that, because I think someone's mad at me when they just say yes.

4:59 That's my own weird cultural type of thing. Where you get that passive aggressive like sure. Yeah. I I I'm like sure what? Like I th I can't stand that stuff. And I don't know why, but I have to know that first. So there's behavioral signs of this as well. So you'll have people like watch videos of like a 20 second interaction and they'll say, oh, this person doesn't like them. And I'm like, Well, why do you say that? I'm not really sure. And we break down Second by second by second, and they go like oh

5:24 I think it's the way that they're smiling, or I think most people don't know how they're coming up with these. perceptions. They don't really understand the origins of it. And when you break it down systematically and they start to see it, they get to understand a little bit more depth. So the the true work is video work. looking at videos and understanding what's going on with those.

5:43 How does trust form between people? Because it it has a large indication, the the nonverbal and also the verbal like cues that we get from other people. And I'm thinking specifically meeting somebody and forming trust with them in person where you're you're getting a three dimensional view of them. But now Zoom, right? It's very common to meet new colleagues over Zoom and not in person, and you have to form a trust relationship with each other.

6:09 And maybe there's um less detail in those interactions. How do we Look for signs that somebody might be untrustworthy. And conversely, how do we convey trustworthiness to other people through these interactions? That's a great question. Okay. So

6:26 Trust from a nonverbal perspective is just You could think of Behaviors on a bell curve distribution. Right. So certain people are going to

6:36 act in certain ways that are not in alignment with how society perceives that behavior to be trustworthy. So an example of this is eye contact. Right. If all of a sudden your eye contact is constantly darting all around the space, people have a perception of like why are they doing that? Like what's going on there. But on the other hand, like if you ask me, Blake, what is the most important moment that happened in your life? And I go, Well, the most important moment that happened in my life, I look at you dead out your eyes when I'm saying that. look it looks better when I'm like I mean the most important moment that ever happened in my life, it looks more genuine because it makes sense that I'm looking away to recall an emotional event and then look back at you. So it's in alignment with how society perceives things.

7:16 And that really, in my opinion, is what it's about. So everybody has their own sort of perceptual lens. for what trustworthy behaviors are and aren't. Right. So For me, I always look to have conversations or do things that are like three standard deviations to the right of a bell curve.

7:34 So like if me and you had a conversation for an hour, we're bringing up topic that you normally don't have with other people, which is gonna create a higher level of trust between me and you. So I'm looking for more nuanced topics and nuanced areas to draw that conclusion. And then to have the mimicking of my behavior. to be associated with the excitement for those things. So for example, like if Um

7:56 me and you have like a v a very long conversation about your children, for example. Like your children are obviously important to you. If my behavior is just asking you standard questions and I'm doing all that, but it doesn't actually look like I'm interested, it's like uh something's off here. Like what what's this person trying to do? What's this person trying to get? But the truth is, it's different for each person, which is why The puzzle is so fascinating. Because it's

8:19 I mean I've I've met with executives that have these weird things that like, oh, I never trust somebody who walks in the room and doesn't shake my hand first. I'm like, well, okay, so why? And we look at it and it's like when they were twelve years old, their dad taught them that. Right. So y you gotta understand that. It's Build trust, build trust. There's not this like step one, two, three, four, five. It's way more complex than that. But the first thing is don't be. so outside the Bell curve distribution of how someone acts that you're just not trusted from the get-go.

8:49 And how much do we update our information once we form an opinion? Yeah with you, like how much information would it take to because I'm not looking for signs anymore, right? Like my brain shuts down. I'm like, oh, this person's trustworthy. Therefore I stop looking for it. Or I say this person's not trustworthy, therefore that's all I see. And h how do we go about changing other people's perceptions of us and also changing our own or being open to changing our own perception of other people? So like

9:17 We have this Bayesian brain and even people that are the most like Think they're the most bayesian approach. When it comes to Human behavior, we get lazy and we build these things and we don't change. And I feel like the only time we're changed. is if we're shown we're really wrong.

9:33 And that's one of the things that I do a lot. So in like working with executives and programs and training, I get somebody to make a read or a prediction about someone else's behavior and then I show them like, oh no, you were completely wrong. And they're like, really? And they're like, oh yeah, this was the reason why they boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And enough of those wrongs, it gets people to sort of challenge how they're viewing the world. And then you can start to have the self growth. But

9:58 It's not an easy path. Like some people will hold on to their perceptions. They were like, oh no. Like I've been doing this thing for 25 years and it's never got me wrong. All the cognitive and decision making bias stuff that you're famous for gets apply to behavior. Every single second of every single day.

10:15 You did a lot of work with prisoners. Did you feel safe? Did you feel like you could trust them? Yeah, ne I never felt You know, my forensic background is

10:26 no way as robust as some people who've been doing this for like thirty or forty years, but I never felt unsafe in a forensic setting. I just I just didn't. I view people as like Most people are still reasonable.

10:38 And if they're sitting down and talking to me, there's a level of reasonable there. And um Yeah, I mean I think I just Through conversation, through looking at my lens for the world.

10:50 I used to be scared by people when I was a kid, like a lot of social anxiety, all that. And There's been so many instances in my life where Yeah, yeah. even on the street with somebody that's looking like really tough or

11:02 On the way here, something happened where I was like, oh, just a person. And I believe through discourse and through conversation anything could be settled. I ha I wasn't really Yeah, it's a great question. I I can't remember fear. But but did you feel like you could trust these people to give you honest answers? Well in a forensic setting, like so No. So like that that's one of the coolest In all forensic psychology, there's a lot of personality tests, which I'm very anti.

11:27 But forensics has One It it's built by a process, I think this is correct, empirical keying procedure. So it's really cool. What they basically do is they'll like Ask people that have been diagnosed with like schizophrenia like 15 or 20 questions and they find the patterns that like 99% of people hear voices in like one year or two years or whatever it is. And then they ask people those same questions that are malingering. Right. And that's how they determine whether or not they're lying or not. There's always, and that's why like

11:55 One of the biggest tests I think still used, the M M P I Two Minnesota multi phasic personality inventory. It's like 530 questions, and a lot of the inventory is asking questions. In different ways. So you don't remember what you said on question twenty six. And that's the point of it. And that's the whole point, right? So there's like this embedded in these forensic instruments, these embedded concept of the person might be lying, and we're trying to figure that out. So I think it's

12:20 It's just different. But yeah, but I'm You people lie for different reasons for shame, for embarrassment. I remember I I had to ask his inventory about Um sex, like how have they had sex in the past like 12 months, nine months six months, three months, and they're in prison in the men population. And when you ask that question, people get like very like what do you say and like people react in a different way. And it's like it makes total contextual sense that they would.

12:46 I'm gonna use a very subjective term in terms of like toughest, your baddest, your most dangerous person, if you had to rank them and categorize them sort of like by percentile into less or more dangerous without knowing their background and only having the information from sort of their answers and their nonverbal cues, how would you go about doing that? It's a great question. So I would Always

13:09 Focus on massively erratic behavior. That worries me more than anything else. So seeing somebody seeing like a schizophrenic in a in a full violent rage or episode like that, which society thinks it's way more common than it actually is. It's not. It's like a stigma that these most people walking down the street that you know, talking to themselves, just continue to talk to themselves. They don't really hurt anyone. But when somebody has l really lost their touch with reality And they're violent, I think that's the scariest thing by far.

13:37 And that's always like all right, just Watch out. Do you think the biggest hawkers are more dangerous than the silent type or I've always I in my experience, I've always found the silent types to not be. I I the biggest talkers are the ones that just talk, talk, talk, talk.

13:56 And They don't really do much, but the problem with them Is that like if that threshold of ego or disrespect gets violated violated, I feel like they feel the need to actually assert themselves. But some of the big tough people are just big and tough and Are they more like a light switch? Yeah. I think they're more erratic in that regard. Like all of a sudden you say something like what you said, like it's just it's quick.

14:18 Where like some of the bigger Um If they want, they'll just just lay you out right there. Like it's they're big. They've got that aggression. They've got that power. Um but

14:29 Yeah, I would definitely say that. And also the the younger population, like people in their twenties. that are just twenty five, twenty six, in prison. Um

14:41 It's different, it's a different time for someone versus forty or fifty that have had that experience that lifelong. Uh It just it's completely different. when you've been institutionalized and grown up in that area and understand how to handle yourself and how to play the game and how to navigate all these things. But I've met some really, really, really smart people. That were like just really ingenious

15:03 ideas and concepts that came from prison. We tend to judge people based on their worst choice in some cases, right? Oh, I mean I am That is probably like my advocacy. Like so Uh

15:14 My foundations will be all for uh prison reform. All for given people second chances. I believe that society it's Kind of

15:24 crazy to me that Yeah. If you were put in that situation. You might if you like people don't understand

15:32 You see somebody commit a horrible crime. and they do something horrible. But that person has a story. And if you were to touch that person and see every step of that story. most people would be like, I'd probably commit that crime too. Yeah. And there's just this massive fallacy that people are like, Well no, I

15:47 No, you grew up in a completely different world, in a completely different context. So the Be careful with that. Whenever I see somebody who does something that I think is Uh Not something I would do. I always ask myself, what would the world have to look like

16:02 Formi For that to be my default behavior. And it can be often an illuminating process to get out of your perspective, shift into a different perspective. And you're right, like Their behavior makes sense to them.

16:14 Yeah, and when you hear these people's stories, like they're real stories, it's like You're doing quite well considering. Like just like the most horrible things that people can't even sort of fathom. Um and If you're not If you don't view it through their lens and through their perspective, it's impossible to like truly relate.

16:33 I wanna come back to the trust thing again,'cause um You were on a Double date with your wife. And you met somebody for the first time, I believe. And

16:47 You were like they're cheating on their partner. Yeah. Within a few minutes. Yeah. Uh, and I'm wondering like what went into that, how did you come to that conclusion, how confident were you in that conclusion? Yeah. I was like a hundred percent confidence. I would have Plays a lot of money.

17:03 Uh there was two things. One It was like the gaze direction in the person's eyes. So f for For example like You know.

17:12 an a an attractive woman walks by, it's not uncommon for men to go like that and glance away. The way that he glanced was like there was just A certain Amount of desire in his eyes. Where he just like stared and was like And what he was doing, he was doing all these like more like a predator, yeah, more like a predator. More like a predator, that's a really good term. Predator desire for it.

17:33 And he kept saying things to me, like little things that were like, Are you one of these people that cheat on your wife? Like I could just Well he didn't say that. No, but he knew about he knew about this poker game and there was like a couple of things that he stated that I was just kind of like This is a little sketch. Testing the water. Yeah, he was like testing you to say Yeah, are you one of us? And I I think what I did is I I walked the line of like, Oh, I know that game or I know that I know that person, but I didn't actually cross it. And then that gave him a little bit of trust with me to kind of go a little bit more. And I'm like, yeah, I'm pretty sure Gina and your wife.

18:10 Yeah. How much of that is ego coming out too? Like why would he I'm also just trying to like understand his pr like why would I put myself in a situation in this double date? Where I'm exposing part of

18:24 Myself I'm trying to hide. I assume he was trying to hide the fact that he was having an affair. I don't think he was. I I think also I mean I definitely have a disarming quality to me when I meet people, because I'm very I'm not really judgmental. I'm of I'm I've like a low Judgment. So

18:41 I have I have friends on every spectrum of everything, right? So I I think I give permission to people to just sort of be themselves and then they keep pushing and I'm still fine with it. And then they keep pushing and I'm like, okay, like it is what it is. You go on there. But there's just like these cultural narratives. Like I was at a dinner once. And it w I was with like six of my friends and one of my friends started like complaining about his wife. And I everybody else started to like it was like such a cool dynamic. Everybody else was like, Yeah, you know, my wife does that too and it bothers me. And I looked at my friend, I was like, why don't you just get a divorce?

19:13 And he was like, What? I was like Just get a divorce. And he was like obviously not gonna get a divorce. I'm like, Well, why are you sitting here? Bad mouthing your wives, like I don't have anything bad. I love my wife. I love spending time with her. Like, why are we doing this?

19:27 And immediately the conversation switches to be like, Yeah, you're right. Like I love my life for th white for this reason, I love my wife for that reason and it's just like I really believe I hate that I hate saying this, but I do believe like people are sheep in that regard. Where there's a narrative and if a powerful person just comes along and shifts the narrative You see how quickly everybody else falls in line. And we're all on both sides of this. Sometimes we're the wolf and sometimes we're the sheep.

19:53 I know you you sort of specialize in nonverbal, but is there like a way that we communicate about our partner? That would be indicative. of like common complaining about our partner versus like oh there's something seriously wrong here. Oh total. I mean like I think there's just This is like all the work that uh Gottman did. the relationship labs and all predicting like signs of contempt and all these things.

20:17 This is the problem with relationships. Everybody has a different version of what a relationship is. So one of the reasons why, you know, me and my wife have been together for twelve years, we've are together like 99% of the time. It works because both of us have the same definition for what a relationship should quote unquote be. So we view things through the same sort of lens. And a lot of conflict comes from when two people have different ideas of what a relationship should look like.

20:42 And there has to be like that negotiation between that. And I think that's hard for a lot of couples. And it's like a it's a good question before you get married. Like what you know, what what are our characteristics of Yeah, what should which what's an ideal relationship? What does it look like? Some people are like, no, I hang out with my friends, you hang out with your friends, and we get together on the weekends. I've known couples that have been together for 45 years that have that paradigm. To me and my wife, we're like, Oh, they're not that close. But that doesn't matter. It's the it's what their relationship of uh Should look like. My uncle gave me this test, I think it was like

21:13 a decade ago now and without fail it has predicted every divorce. And the test was so simple. It was like if you hang out with people And they talk to each other, but only in transaction. And transaction being like you get groceries, you change the diaper, you like errands, you know, sort of like day to day life stuff, and they don't ask each other questions. Like that is a huge red flag for predicting a problem. And it's actually enabled me to like intervene in some friends' lives and be like, hey, we just had dinner last night, but I noticed this thing. Is everything okay? Is like there anything you want to talk about?

21:49 And they're like, How did you how did you know? And I'm like, Oh,'cause like I'm sitting there and you're both talking to me, but you're not talking to each other. Oh yeah. And and you know, on a one off basis that's fine, but like repeatedly, okay, well now I'm I'm detecting a pattern and something is something's up. There's so many Interesting. nuanced themes. I remember We used to do a bunch of studies in New York City and I had this one couple come in.

22:13 They they're like, Oh, can you can you study us? And I said, sure. So they come into the office and they sat down on a couch and I recorded them from like three different angles. And they're like, What do you see? I was like I'm not gonna say anything. I'm gonna leave the room. I'm gonna go get lunch.

22:27 Sit here. and watch your interaction. problems you think we we you know you have. And they did it.

22:35 And it was like they saw so many things. He's like, I don't really listen to her. I I was looking on the video and she was speaking and I was just kind of nodding my head and distracted and did and they both had I was really impressed to see that level of awareness. But I I think that you know, video does in a world with so many different perspectives and perceptual differences, video doesn't lie, it's just like raw data. And I think it's so helpful to like

22:57 see yourself on video in a role. Why don't we do more of that in terms of like recording ourselves because I mean I'm a big fan of it, but I'm sure there's gonna be lots of comments on YouTube here. I mean it's just Yeah, like sit down. And the truth is people like will talk about the observer effect with video and all that. It goes away in like 10 minutes. Like if you have like a small iPhone, you forget about it and you're actually seeing patterns of behavior. And um That's something I say to my wife a lot, like oh, uh

23:24 Like, let's get a video of it and see what it was actually like, right?'Cause it's It's so difficult to just You ask two people to recall an event. It's just wildly different. What?

23:36 And then you show the video and you see that it's like somewhere in the middle of what those two stories were. And I just find that fascinating. So I'm obsessed with video. I like the feedback if we're giving a presentation, we watch a video to like see ourselves. Articulation or that's another big problem. So uh in presentations We had a we had a program for called dynamic presentations. I used to do it for in New York City for like five years and a lot of corporate stuff around it. And people are obsessed with recording the person on stage. What's more interesting is recording the audience.

24:05 Because the truth is I'm always asked, how did my presentation go? I go, I don't know, let's see the audience. My presentation is for that group of people. So what often happens is a lot of communication experts will watch like a presentation and they'll go, Well, I think you should move your hands more or less, or I think you should speak up like They're doing that through their perceptual lens. They're not optimizing for the engagement of the audience. So I used to record my presentation and the audience every third presentation for like three years. It was fascinating. Why don't we take that approach? I mean comedians effectively take that approach without recording the audience because it's based on oh That joke got a laugh. I'm gonna use that next time. That joke fell flat. I'm not gonna use that next time. It's the feedback loop is instant. So that's how that was what's was such the value. Like when I was teaching psychology at CUNY, I was like speaking like eighty to a hundred hours a week, both at my office and both

24:53 Instant feedback loop of what story worked. what story didn't work. Like did that land, did that offend somebody? And you just start to develop this quicker repertoire of things that actually work, but that comes from that audience interaction. But most people when giving a presentation they're not even present enough to do that because they're so in their head about the presentation. So it's sort of a skill set that comes after you've been more comfortable being on stage to be able to process and sort of predict the behavior of an audience. What's the biggest thing that gets in people's way when they're presenting? Uh really just the

25:25 social construction that a presentation is something different. So pe oh, it it's got this whole cultural narrative. Oh, you got a you have your big presentation coming up. It's hyped up as this this different thing. You're just talking to a group of people. And they're responding by shaking their head and nodding and you're sitting up there and I I think That's the first construct that needs to be broken.

25:46 And then also just people just don't put in the reps. Like that's something that just takes time and Most people. Work so hard for a presentation. And they do it and it's like, oh, it's flood of release where they should have just done every day for the next three weeks do a presentation, it'd be so much better. W what does putting in the reps mean? Does that mean

26:05 crafting your story and positioning it for the audience? Does it mean your intonation Like how do you actually go about working on that? Like how would you make me an expert presenter if You had three weeks and you had one hour a day of my time. So th so that's so uh so cool that you did that. So my question was always be what was the constraint? So if you said three hours a week, one hour a day of your time The first week would probably be reps of just

26:31 Let's get you comfortable. Let's so the thing is with a lot of the nonverbal behavior stuff and movement I have found reliably that the most effective version of someone is when they're the most comfortable. Hm. Bar not every single time. So the the whole joke is people think I teach like oh stand this way. No. Like step one is get you to the level where you're the most comfortable, where you feel the most free, and then build on top of that. So I try to get you there first.

26:57 And I wouldn't be focusing on I mean it really depends. If you're doing like a TED talk that was like 20 minutes, I'd probably tell you just to rehearse it and get that down. But if you're doing like an hour presentation or the most presentations that people have to do, it would be all outlines repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat. And it's a It's a careful balancing act to like understand where you're at'cause Some people with a lot of anxiety.

27:19 I will know Or some people that are trying to get it right. I won't be focusing on little details. It's a way more dynamic process. Like so some people that have like these facial things to getting better at presentation, it's like It's different for every person'cause some if someone you're telling someone

27:34 Listen, you're moving your hands too much. and they're gonna get in their head about moving their hands too much. They're gonna start looking all weird. Yeah, yeah. And some people can take a cue and immediately change it. And other people J just get them comfortable. Just get them comfortable. And then using video. But you want to hear something else fascinating. So what do you show people video of themselves? I work once worked with this.

27:55 woman um I hope she's hearing this because I I I love her, but not to call her out. So I she gives one of the worst initial presentations I've ever seen in my entire life. She was Extremely flat. She was like moving her hands. She literally spoke like this for an entire 20 minutes. And I it was like painful to watch.

28:14 And at the end of the video, I was like, okay, so let's see what we're working with. And I put her video on her like projects. And the first thing she says to me is like, I need a nose job. And it just shows you like that's where that person's perception is focused on. Like we're focused on these weird little different things that no one else recognizes or no one else cares about. And I truly believe. That the most world class Best presenters. are truly about their audience and not about themselves. They're not trying to come across a certain way. They're trying to like I even feel that now, like I'm stepping more into my own self after the first twenty minutes.

28:51 Like at first it's a little bit you know, it's a little different. I'm trying to be more measure, now it's more me coming out of it. And the truth is how do you get to that immediately and build from there. And go right away into that. I wanna switch gears a little bit and talk about Um workplace and sort of power structures and social dynamics.

29:08 How Can you teach me to understand the power structure at work and social dynamics? How would you go about that? So power structures. Oh man. Such a good question. Uh They are

29:21 These invisible things. That's that's when I when we talk about reading a room in a corporate structure, that's what we're talking about. We're talking about power structure, talking about permissions, all these things. The first way to do it. is to do this exercise where You sort of do a decision tree of the potential, like show people what the potential landscape could be.

29:40 So for example, let's say all of a sudden uh a new CEO gets pulled in. And we want to say, okay, what is this CEO going through? Is this CEO just? pushed in by the PE company. Does the CEO have performance based incentives? Like what are they trying to do?

29:57 And just map out all what quote unquote is possible, and then start using the data and evidence that's coming in on a daily basis. to like cross out which one it is. And then sometimes just just straight up ask. I think that's something that a lot of organizations don't do. I can I can't tell you the amount of times where I'm just like

30:16 So I I have this really cool perspective'cause I work with Often the entire C suite. So like the CO, CTO, like everybody I work with. And it's like you two need to talk about this. Because this is blocking you two needs to talk about this.

30:28 But the amount of communication that just doesn't happen at like a personal level. Or just a level that's like blocking decision making. It's kinda crazy. Uh I I think organizations need to talk way more than they are. Uh in this

30:42 siloed environment sometimes. If you just were able to have those conversations, you would be able to navigate and see the power structures. way easier. And people just don't have that social skill set, that the people skills to sit down with someone and A lot I've just seen every a lot of people get power structures.

31:00 Oh, I'll give you a good one. If you are falling in line with the power structure. It's often very difficult to navigate it. Meaning if it's like oh my God, this person is this and this person is this and I'm just this

31:15 you're very rarely going to be able to see eye to eye with that person because you perceive them here and you perceive yourself here. And I feel like people do that a lot inside of organizations and doesn't give them that creative freedom to actually read what's going on. Okay. Is the delta between where you are and where you perceive the other person Like, does that influence your

31:36 How? I mean uh just from like of what you have quote unquote permission to do or say. It's all a perception. Like I I've I've worked with people like executive I've worked with CEOs that are Be most open. Every all of their behavior suggests that they're the most open, honest, come to them with problems.

31:56 But people don't come to them with problems because they're CEO. Yeah, but they say it over and over and over again. And I look at why and they're like I don't want to bother the CEO with this. I'm like They said seven times this year come to me with this specific kind of problem and Yeah, you're right, but uh j I just don't know. You get in your head like that. How much of that do you think is cultural too, because I I worked with a CEO who

32:19 said that, but the minute you came to him with a problem he'd basically like scream at you. That's the kind of stuff that I correct. So that's the bulk of my when you say something, but your patent a lot of these people Often Just

32:33 don't understand a lot of executives don't understand the impact of their own behavior. So I have met people that are wonderful, wonderful, wonderful people. But yeah, the way they give feedback, oh my God. It just ripped the person apart and they're like, no.

32:49 I l I love them. They're one of my best people. I think they're great. I'm like Well, let's take responsibility for what that interaction looked like. And that's why Zoom and video is so important for me. Cause sometimes when you work with an executive or you work with anybody and you tell them something. They don't see it like the way that you describe. But when you show them on video.

33:08 That feedback, I was like, listen, go back twenty years in your career, if you were given this feedback, how would you feel? They're like Yeah. And I and I do this cool thing I It's the exercise that really works. So You know, leadership.

33:21 Principles and all that stuff. I'm not there to tell somebody how to lead. I'm not there for any of that. I'm there just to make sure that their intent is aligned with their behavior. So I do this thing. Where I'm like, Close your eyes.

33:31 And imagine Yeah, your funeral. And everybody you've ever worked with in your entire life is there. what are the stories and things that you're saying about you. And I just make sure that those things are in alignment with their behavior. Yeah. And they choose and solidify what those things are. And then I kind of hold them accountable to making sure that they're carrying out those things. It's kind of interesting, right? Because it's almost like a destination analysis, which is like

33:55 There's a difference between getting what you want. And then wanting what's worth wanting. And then also the way that you employ a strategy to go about getting that thing. So like if to want the right destination. And you have to know how to get it, but then also it's like am I getting it in a way that I'm gonna be happy with at the end of my life. And you can think of Ebenezer Scrooge. Yeah. Great example of somebody who went after goals, whether consciously or unconsciously, about sort of being the wealthiest, most well respected, most well known person in his community, accomplished all of those goals. But what did he want to

34:30 At the end of his life, he just wanted a redo because the way that he pursued those goals. was mutually exclusive from a life of meaning, which he later determined, which is sort of like this deathbed sort of test, right? I'm calling it the Eb Ebenezer exercise. I'll credit you with that,'cause that's just a perfect sort of analogy. And also about that destination principle. I think there's a major gap. In

34:55 the leadership or organizational culture or that whole world between theory and application. So somebody reads a book about maybe radical candor or some like concept. And then the way that they apply it is completely different. So for example, some people just have like tonal aspects of their voice that society or eighty percent of people perceive as harsh.

35:16 And they'll say. Listen, so I'm just being totally honest here. But And it's like, okay, that's coming across a little bit strong, a little bit this. And what I've been fascinated by. is not everybody sees that.

35:29 Oh yeah. So some people see it and some people don't, and like I'll I'll I'll play it back for them and they go, I'm just giving them advice. And I'm like You really don't hear the difference between that? And they're like, no. And that's why you get some people in an organization that are hyper literal and some that are more contextual and you just they clash. And that's why it's like you said one word answer, you said this, you said that, uh back and forth. But it's all this just It's all this cool narrative of everybody seeing the world differently. And it's like my job to solve the puzzle of documenting that and bringing them together and show them. And that's usually the best step. Like I really believe that.

36:03 Uh the personal like operating manuals that it sometimes people I've seen some people do them that are so good. And just like listen, you need hear my quirks, here are my things about me. You get it all out there first. So that you create the narrative and not somebody else is imagining the narrative. Are there are there different techniques to enhance your communication? I'm thinking specifically with people who are hyperliteral.

36:28 'Cause if you're not a hyperliteral person, you don't tend to think that way by default. it's harder. So it's easier to deal with the people that are more contextual and lower them down than the hyperliteral. It becomes like certain people on spectrums and multi axle spectrums. Um I sometimes have worked with people that I have to like Yeah. It's

36:48 Basics, basic. And they're like interesting. So I had a client once that um Uh. This is years ago. This is maybe like fourteen years ago, in a or fifteen years ago, in a bar in New York City at three o'clock in the morning, not in a bar, I'm sorry, in a diner.

37:03 He walks into the diner and I was like on a double date. He walks into he walks in and he goes, Blake, how are and introduces everyone. Hey, how are you? How are you? How are you? And everybody starts hysterical laughing.

37:16 And I'm like good and and on our session later, I was explaining to him Like this is why the context was different. And I'm drawing circles of all the layers of context in that dynamic. And he's like, Okay, I I understand it now. And I was like that it was inappropriate for that dynamic. And I have so much empathy. For people that don't see the world that way because it's so, so, so hard. It's it's learned almost for people like that, right? It's like now next time he knows in that situation, but it's not intuitive for him. It's like a learned behavior and algorithm he's following. And it is intuitive for some people and it's Right now in this room there's just this

37:51 invisible norms of how I should act on a podcast, how you should be at like And if you don't know those norms You're sort of like ostracized. Yeah. And sometimes uh one of the things that happens is these like hyper or really successful people who violate those norms get modeled. And it's like, whoa, like

38:12 Elon Musk could violate all the norms he wants. Steve Jobs can too, but like you can't. You don't have that authority. You don't have that. that contextual understanding of who you are. So you have to sort of play the game in the beginning. Um this always comes up with small talk, like people Hate small talk I hate small talk small talk. Well small talk is a path to big talk. So you have like a couple of s seconds, couple of minutes of small talk. You don't just walk up to someone and be like, hey

38:34 Like, so tell me, what's the biggest conflict between you and your wife right now? It's like, what? It's very off putting, right? Like there's a gradual process, but if you don't understand those things, life is hard. Totally. What strategies can we use to enhance our nonverbal communication at work? our ability to communicate? Yeah. I think

38:53 One Step one, obviously I've been re repeating this over and over and over again, is get as much video as possible of you interacting. So everyone out there listening to this, if you work, I promise you You have a good amount of video. On Zoom, on whatever. You just basically want to re watch those videos and make sure that your intent is aligned with that. With or without sound.

39:13 Uh with definitely with sound. What are you watching? Are you watching you or are you watching other people's reactions to that so uh the exercise of watching other people reacting to you Is very valuable in the sense where you'll understand when you're losing people, when people are disinterested, when they're engaged, so on and so forth, but also understanding aspects of you, I believe that most people

39:33 You need somebody else to help you with this. Yeah um People look At the things. That don't matter. They'll say like

39:44 I say like so much, or I say um, or I say uh, like you're missing the picture of what you're trying to sort of convey. So part of the process is like coming up with. almost like a series of words that you'd want to like how do you want to come across in this interaction? Well I wanna be enthusiastic, I wanna be interested, I wanna be to the point, and then making sure that your behaviors are in alignment with that and landing for the people in that way. But a lot of it is like breaking down. video and just analyzing video. Like that's the best Way by far. Okay, and if we don't have access to video for whatever reason. Uh if you don't have access to video

40:21 I would really if I had to give you that. I would say I'd want you to record Yourself not in a work context. Record yourself with someone. They have a true unconditional positive regard with someone that you know is not judging you, that you're a close friend.

40:37 And I'd like you to look at your tonal patterns, your movement, how you are. That's how you should be at work. Okay. That's for for sure. It's like ninety five percent of people. And every once in a while there's A certain percentage that's not that, but that's I think a good standard to follow. And do you consider writing nonverbal, or is it verbal because we sort of like read it with that little voice in our heads? Yeah, I mean Yeah, it's it's I I I'll take nonverbal as everything. So all of our software analyzes language patterns, it analyzes tonality, and I go into

41:08 Ever you can't really separate nonverbal from verbal. I mean, maybe the only place you could do this is poker. And a couple of other things. The truth is We're always so the model for how we read behavior is we're looking at behavior within a context and we're coming up the reason for why it occurs. If you don't have

41:24 Like words, you don't understand the context. That's why like a lot of things, like a lot of these body language people like take a 10 second clip and be like you know, uh because my feet are sitting this way, that means this or that, and they just like build this narrative. Words allow you to understand the consistency of that narrative. So it's it's so much better

41:45 to have the full picture, as much data as possible. I like that. Is there a way that we can look at our emails and evaluate our our communication by Like sort of like looking outside in or questions we can ask other people to evaluate how effective our communication is. So that's probably the best way is questions of asking other people. Of but see, this is where it's what would we ask them? So this is this is where it gets interesting, right? So like you have to have a leadership style and a presence and a history.

42:11 of being the kind of person that could sit there and be like, hey everyone, I'm really trying to improve how I am on emails. So I just want you know, like when I send you an email, do you have any like weird stories of an email that I sent you that you thought I was a certain way or I was frustrated of a certain way? But a lot of leaders or executives, they can't even create the like space or the dynamic to do that. Most people be like, no, you're fine. So like I love these questions.

42:34 Where We do all these like perception research, right? So You go like this, you say How do you think that interaction went on a scale from one to ten? People are horrible at answering it.

42:45 Like, do you like that person from a scale from one to ten? And they're like, I don't know. But you ask somebody a question. Would on a scale from one to five, how likely are you to invite this person to a dinner with your closest friends? And the answer is so easy for them to answer. So I like questions that are about predictive type of things. Right. Right. Not about just your trait. Cause it allows them to conceptualize and give a better answer. So I would be asking questions like You know On a scale from like just tell me a scale from one to five, how many times do you leave

43:17 An email from me feeling frustrated. 'Cause they can easily give you the answer instead of searching for it. And But let's be real. A lot of people don't want to do that work. Yeah. Like they're just gonna

43:28 protect themselves from that and and listen also I think we have a problem in this kind of like self-help personal development. World. Where I th I think a lot of Let's say like

43:41 like thought leaders and leadership and all I think they're disconnected from what leaders actually go through. And the reason why I'm saying that is like all of this stuff is easy in theory. But I see some of these people. Like they're pulled in six different directions. Their board wants them to do this. Their stock is at this. This team is this. And I It's so much harder. Then just like, oh you know.

44:02 Be a little bit more happy in the morning. And I feel like You really as like a coach, you have to feel like What's the eighty twenty? Like what are the small things that you're gonna do that are gonna have the greatest impact on the team? And then also

44:17 Yeah. I really do struggle with this in the sense that like I've seen certain leaders be horrible. and get incredible things done. You violate every book ever written about leadership. And work a team to complete death and play this Machiavellian game of just when they're about to fire. Fi just about when they're about to quit.

44:38 give them enough of reinforcement. And I see they're like the dark side of everything that I'm teaching. And I'm like, they know exactly what they're doing here. And I call them out and I'm like, you know exactly where they're doing it. And then you look at their KPIs and their metrics and how the how the organization's structured. And they're like, They're actually in perfect alignment with how they should be acting. Yeah.

44:57 It's tricky. It's like it's a tricky thing. I don't think That's spoken about enough. Do you think all behavioral is contextual or environmental in that case. 'Cause their environment is those KPIs. The environment is the culture, the operating environment of the organization is your environment.

45:12 So the way to address that is to change the environment. Yeah, I think all optimal behavior is within a construct of your environment. So the more you have context, the more you stand understand an environment, the more your behavior can be designed or Modified To navigate that environment.

45:32 Are there things that we can do in our environment that we control individually outside of the context of an organization that we can use to Improve our behavior that come to mind for you? Set up cameras. Um also just Set it up so that you win. Like I I feel like uh

45:51 Like just the way an office is. integrated like I had I'd work for one person a long time ago that had like a desk And he had a like really large desk and then there was a chair. And he would every time somebody came to the office, he would like walk behind his desk. like sh shake their hand and then bring them to like a couch setup where they were faced one on one and that's before Zoom and before COVID. This is how they did all their one on one sessions. And it was just like a simple way of getting making sure the person feels really heard because you're just aligned with them. Totally. And you're you're looking at them and you're facing that direction. I was like huh that's a really cool

46:24 And I mean we do this all the time with our kids, with friends, with every we grab our phone and like we're talking to them but are not really talking to them. We're not There's a huge advantage to sort of being gained by like you I remember somebody said something who met Bill Clinton. Oh and I was like Everybody's got so many Bill Clinton stories. No about this though. Well so this was like and I was like, Oh, what did you take away from that? And this person like looked me in the eye And they said

46:52 I felt like the most important person in the room for forty five seconds. How did he do that? How did we create that? So The amount of people that have given me that build I'm like, and I'm so curious because

47:06 I've seen some footage of him in interactions. Uh a close friend told me the story once of walking into a um he was with him and they walked into like a conference center and there was a cleaning lady cleaning. And she got really like, I'm not supposed to be here. And he walked right up to her. And he looked at her with a level of presence and focus for two and a half or three minutes that people were like, huh, you know? And part of me is this, is like first.

47:33 There's definitely this halo or this thing of he's the president or former president of the United States, right? But there's also these like nonverbal ways of just the piercing eye contact and the way that he looks deep into your soul. And it it's there's definitely a balance of both. I am so curious though. That that was what my friend said. He never broke eye contact. Like he was just very intense. But it was like a warm intensity, if that makes sense. Not like a Th there's also I I think this is all about that perceptual bell curve. So I think there are qualities and tonality, the w the way the gaze, the shape of someone's face. It's kind of like these these whole Old ancient Pros um

48:10 ancient practices of like determining if somebody's gonna be a criminal or not based on their facial structure. And and the fun the interesting thing about that is like Our culture supports that. Like William Dafoe is usually the villain. 'Cause he's got that really like angular sort of like type of face. Like he was perfectly cast in one of the Spider Man movies, right? Like and there's certain things about like the th there's a professor out of UPenn that's done does a lot of stuff uh about impressions and the structure of someone's face. And like that stuff's an advantage in life. Like some people have a face that's gonna be more trustworthy or a face that's gonna be more aligned with attraction or whatever it is. So I definitely multivariable, right? There's so many different variables. And when they come together you get that like

48:52 really gifted communicator that just has that ability. But I will tell one thing. So one of the Big things that I've noticed in the best communicators is they have range. So the They have the ability There's a lot of

49:04 shifts in their tonality. There's a lot of uh movement. You kind of can't predict what the next word is going to be. There's I just think there's something that the brain loves that. It loves it loves the kiss. Because it keeps you guessing. Exactly. And when you're autocomplete in Google. Exactly. No, that's the best way of thinking of it. Like you know what's going to happen. And then Um I think there was there's one cool study I think out of like UPen that found that like people that talk faster Or listen to

49:31 at a greater level, even though what they're saying is nonsense. Like just not like that happens to me ever once in a listen to somebody and I'll be like I sounded really good. And then I replay it and if they say the same thing three times. I even catch myself doing that. I was like, I just said that the same thing three times. Like Right.

49:47 I'm passionate about it, so it sounds good, you know. Confidence. Yes. I mean that's How how are we on the other side of this though? Like One of the Biggest things that you can do in life is pick out

50:00 people who are incompetent but sound competent from competent. Are there How do we go about doing that? So Uh. It's tricky. It's a tricky one. It's in the sense that I believe that certain people

50:15 speak with I was like a lot like this when I was younger. I would talk about things so confidently that I knew nothing about. And my wife really changed my perspective on this when we first started dating. She was like, you have a responsibility with that level of conviction. And I was like, You're a hundred percent right. Like I definitely like I'm not really sure. So it's like This is my opinion about this thing, but not like it's absolute fact and nobody else. And I think when you find somebody like that.

50:41 I like to look for I don't know's. So whenever I talk to any expert and it's every there's always an answer, sometimes it's nice to be like, oh, I don't know. Or there's not always an answer to something, right? They don't always because I feel like there's a compulsion. to always contribute or always to be confident.

50:58 And the truth is it it's just not possible. Um And then also there's just L little traits of humility. Of when someone was wrong. or how they were wrong or why they were wrong that come up in language and are not prompted.

51:13 Like it's refreshing to hear an expert say I was really wrong about that. Um I think this is one thing that like Uberman does so well. Of just being this kind of like

51:25 Yeah. Senior uh uh very distinguished professor. Tons of research, but has this like Boyish kind of passion for science and for that. And I think that comes across as that's the new expert.

51:40 one person that's not just I have all the answers and trust me and I'm right, but one person that's able to Have humility and adapt over time. I like that. Are there other things that stand out in terms of identifying incompetent or even deception. And I'm relating those two because sometimes people are trying to deceive us and sometimes they're deceiving us in in part because they're They're playing

52:04 you know, prote fake it to you, make it sort of thing. Where it's not necessarily necessarily intentional deception. But it is sort of like masking a base level of incompetent. Yeah, so that's So the I think the best way so On the nonverbal behavior spectrum.

52:21 dating is probably the easiest paradigm to understand. And deception's the hardest. 'Cause it's so multifaceted, it's so complex. Uh I don't know if there ever will be a system that can predict

52:32 whether or not someone's lying or not'cause it's just it's a nuance that's very difficult to Encapsulate. I think the easiest way is to throw out fake information and see how people respond. So I've done this.

52:44 in academic settings where I meet someone that I just I think they're a little bit full of it. So I just like make up studies. I'm like, have you read that like Dillington study in like 2014? And they're like about that and then I'll say something and they're like, Yeah, I I think I've read it. And I'm like, Yeah, well they did the double blind and like yeah, yeah, it was it was great. I just made it up. Yeah. And the this is the trick though. It's not to make a judgment call about that person. So I don't do something like that and go, liar, how can it? But I know that in terms of how they're willing to be seen, they're willing to sacrifice that. for being read in on the no, right? And they they want to be perceived that way. So it's it's an interesting sort of character thing.

53:25 And then there's questions like You know, do you want your s your head of business development, your salesperson to to respond that way? Like, you know, it it gets interesting, but yeah, I think that's the easiest way. Because ultimately, I mean, there's a very innate biological function in us that is self preserving and the self preserving instincts that we have. mean that we want other people to like us because for Thousands of years. If we weren't liked, we died.

53:51 And by liked I mean we we got kicked out of the tribe, so sometimes we would fake things, I would imagine. to stay within the tribe rather than get excommunicato from the tribe and which is certain death. Yeah. People have to be reminded we're so bad as humans of looking at time.

54:09 But the amount of time we've been around on this planet utilizing exactly what you're talking about. is like this, and then the time that we're navigating all these crazy structures is like a teeny teeny teeny teeny teeny thing. And it plays such an important and valuable role in in how we function it. I always my wife owns a sleep optimization company. And she's all about circadian rhythms. And um

54:34 very anti these lights, right? And what's so fascinating is like if you look, we have had our sleep dictated by the sun in the same way for so long and just over the past like ninety years or eighty years or whatever it's been, completely altered. Yeah. That's so, so, so new. Yeah. And just we are the time that we're going into right now is the most socially Complicated Ever.

54:58 It there's nothing ever like it. We've got You know tons of political everything everything is so nuanced right now. that there isn't it's not just about your survival, it's about survival and looking good when you post this Instagram post and making sure it doesn't offend this, this, this, this, it's getting more complex, not less. And it's happening quickly it's like that you know hockey shaped curve of just like complexity is driving up. Well we did that right before this started. I moved a book, right? Because I didn't want that book in YouTube and I didn't want people commenting on that book. Totally totally my perception of how people would respond to it. Yeah, my I mean all all all these weird things. Like I'm wearing two different socks right now. Two different kinds of socks.

55:36 And I was like, Oh, maybe I'll cover my sock. And then like I don't care about my sock. Like we do that. Like we just we Um We over index these things that other people don't even notice. So there's when I was teaching psychology at CUNY, I had this, um So I was wearing the same J. Crew pants every day because they're really comfortable.

55:57 And I started like I'm just wearing the same pants like every single day and I have like two pants. And I was like I think people are gonna know, but I couldn't find these pants anymore. So it was in my head about these pants and my my students looking at my pants. So I was like, you know what, let me ask. So I basically set up this cool thing where I was like, hey everyone, like a month into the course I had like 140 students or whatever.

56:18 Um I was like, there's something about me. that hasn't really changed. What is it? And I had everybody like fill out a little form.

56:28 And they gave it to me. And only one person knew, and guess what? They worked at J. Crew. Uh-huh. And they said, You really love our pants. You must have so many. And it was just this moment where I was like. No one cares. No one really Careful.

56:45 And I think we spend so much time on those things. and not enough time on connection and not enough time on really like getting the other person getting out of our own head. Into what Like actually occurring. So it's interesting'cause I have a different approach to this, which is I believe nobody cares in day to day life and interactions.

57:04 A video. last forever. So what people care about today and what somebody's gonna pick out in ten or fifteen years uh are two different things and and then that adds like a layer of complexity to thinking about how things play across time.

57:20 Or not about what people remember or not about their experience in the moment, but now I can go back and analyze that video And like nitpick everything. Well, this is my big problem too. So I've I've had to get a a l a lot of personal coaching with my coaches about video. Yeah. So if I had to give a presentation in Madison Square Garden Tonight

57:39 I'd be ecstatic. But if I have to make a video. That I know that's gonna be out there on it. I overthink. I over analyze I mean, there's videos of me saying things. Because also I mean

57:50 I've changed my own opinions on things. Totally. So like I have videos out there that I made in twenty sixteen about poker tails. That over the past eight years, I've completely changed my mind and thoughts about that. There's videos of me saying things that I completely disagree with today. And I oh I yeah, I I struggle with the same thing. I think I have to go the What's the Rick Rubin? Rick Rubin had great quote about like a creative process is like your

58:15 Creating something for the time. Yeah. But I struggle with the same thing of like video of just like Oh no, of like how this is gonna be perceived. Or, you know, I'll be more effective at this kind of conversation a year from now. This is my second podcast in God knows how many years. Like those type of things, but Do people really care? I think we care more than, you know, they do.

58:37 You brought up dating. What are the things that we can take away from this conversation and apply to dating, whether we're A guy, a girl, it doesn't matter. Um how can we read into The first few interactions with somebody from a

58:53 Am I trying to determine if I want to spend my life with this person or see them more or How do we How do we use this information in that specific context? Yeah, dating's a tricky one because dra dating is this like It is this weird game still. Like in the beginning it's this game of like delayed attraction and

59:12 uh delayed gratification. It's it there's so much nuance to it. I I I'll tell you one thing. I think that So I I used to do this, I used to teach a dating class in New York City. Um and one of the cool things I would do is I'd ask people in the room like What's their ideal person? And they like write a list on that piece of paper.

59:32 And then I go, Okay, the last three relationships in your life How d how many of them met that criteria? And they would all like laugh and it would never be one to one. Right. I think people have this real weird concept of It's almost like mimetic desire. Like there's a desire of what you think you want, but what you actually want.

59:50 And I feel like the first step in really dating is like, what do you really want? And for a super young uh super somebody's young in their twenties or whatever, you don't know. It's gonna take some time to sort of like figure it out. But I think doing that work of like what what makes me happy, like what am I looking for in somebody else and Not going for the traits of just

1:00:09 I mean attractive in is an instant quality for the most part, right? You see somebody, you know if they're attractive or you're attracted to them or not. But there's sort of like these deeper things. Like I remember like uh me and my wife met. It was it was so funny. We met in like twenty Twelve years ago. I met my she met my class. I had a class called Body Language Explain. She was in the second class ever. And she walks in and I was like

1:00:29 Okay. What do we got here? And During the she sits down and then during during our conversations This uh sh on my bookshelf.

1:00:39 She said, you know, you remind me of like you remind me of like Tim Ferris a little bit, like a New York City Tim Ferris. And I was like has attractive girl though Tim F this is w before Tim was like Tim Ferris, right? It was just kind of like four hour body had just came out a four hour work week. And I was like, and she really read that book. And I she's like, Oh, I love him, I love his books and da da da and I was just kinda like

1:01:00 Yeah. Like it was this qualifier that was like different. And I was like, Yeah, I think I'd like to I never thought that I never had the concept that my partner was gonna share my interest at that age. Right. I just cause the women I had met weren't interested in this kind of stuff. And I met somebody that was like really interested in self development. And I was like, I didn't realize how important this is to me.

1:01:19 And it was so funny'cause then it was all these things that are like truly important to me at the time. and continue to grow that solidified this sort of relationship. And Yeah, and then there's all the other game type stuff. That you gotta do and it it's it's

1:01:35 even very difficult to even articulate. I can tell you what not to do. Uh I can tell you, try not to be someone you're not. Don't Everybody's got a song playing and sometimes you just need to dial the volume up and down.

1:01:49 Some people try to play a completely different song. So they try to become someone completely different to be more of a chameleon for that person. And then after three or four dates, it's just like This is not really me. You don't want to be too much yourself and too authentic and too straightforward. But it's funny, our first date

1:02:06 Uh, my first study ever was on dates. So I rented a restaurant in New York City. This was in 2008 in the subprime mortgage crisis. I put on a add on Craigslist$50 to set you up on a 30 minute date. I got like 300 applications. And I set up a series of dates, people came in, thirty minute date, and then the guy would leave and I would ask what's going on, like what's and we found that the

1:02:28 What's so interesting is when you show people these dates. What they perceive to be the best day is not the best day. So the best date is the one that was a little bit more awkward, a little bit weird, but it had more depth to it. And those people connected at a much deeper level. The surfaced ones, they look because and then you you also see all people's Biases.

1:02:47 So you see I show people two people in a date and like in one The female is by society standards. far more attractive than the male. And people immediately don't think that she's interested in him because of that reason. So they just met you projecting all your stuff onto the world around you every single second. And that really showed you.

1:03:05 Are there questions we can ask on dates that are more revealing of who the other person is? I don't I don't I If y the best paradigm for Date is storytelling. Never Questions.

1:03:18 'Cause when you fall into this question and all right, so if we take If we write a story out, let's say you told me like before we started this, you're telling me a story about your kids, right? And we list that out. There were so many threads of connection between me and you in that story. It would have been impossible for you to do that in a question and answer. So like even when I was dating people, I would uh when I was like helping people with dates, I would say start off with story. So as soon as you get in the table, not just like, hey, how are you? It's just like the craziest thing just happened. Or just get into some sort of story. I story are

1:03:49 it it still is the single most powerful communication tool. Barnon. The problem is People are now in in our society going into performance storytelling, which is a lot different than social storytelling. So performance storytelling is the When I was seven years old.

1:04:06 something happened that changed the course of my life. And it's kinda like I find it icky. Um a real story is just telling a story like you tell your friends, but it has a beginning and has an end. I I find that tell more stories in dating. It'll it will really show you how you connect to someone.

1:04:21 That's fascinating advice. How did nonverbal styles work across cultures? No, they're so different. This trick is this. So I have this thing called the Anywhere on the planet approach. And the the

1:04:34 sort of concept is you can be dropped anywhere on the planet and you could observe And you can look at things. So you can look at like the proximic differences between a Midwestern interaction versus the Middle East. Middle East people they talk quicker together, the behavior will be perceived as maybe a little bit more aggressive in the way that I move in this. It's a cultural construct. It's how they interact. It's not aggressive to them. Not aggressive to them. They're fine. In in in New York City, the way I was raised around my friends, like we were brutal to each other.

1:05:05 constantly making fun of each other, like Insulting people like Left and right. It was part of the cultural construct. Or even the way you walk in New York. Oh. I mean still You can pick out a tourist just by how they're walking, right? I mean still to this day, like everywhere I go.

1:05:20 I'm like, Can you hurt me up already? Like Exactly how what are you doing? There's like six I still get frustrated. How does one person take up the whole sidewalk? Like those kind I so that that's one of the interesting things. Like now I just get like really interested. So I see someone on an elevator. and there's two people and they're they're blocking the other side. And I'm just like You really don't have the concept that other people are and I don't think people do. I don't think people have that

1:05:47 theory of mind that other people are interacting in this world and it's why it's so infuriating for the people who do have that. But I just don't like even on the plane. Today. Somebody was literally holding back Yesterday everybody is walking on this line and they're trying to get their little luggage out and they're just

1:06:05 And then their wallet falls and they have to take their wallet out. And tuck it into their There's a world happening around you. What's going on? Um That's like my one prompt for everybody listening. It's like

1:06:17 There's a world happening around you and I think it's very healthy. Just sometimes. Make your behavior about others and not yourself. So how can you optimize your behavior for the people around you as opposed to what you're going through? It's a very helpful exercise for people that are in their head. And I think

1:06:36 the best communicators and the people that are the most well liked are consciously doing this. They're putting other people first. And it's just sort of like a a reaction or a way of doing it. I mean I walked in here and I was like just as a default approach. They were On loading gear. And I was like, Hey

1:06:53 Do you need help? And I picked up a stand and brought it in, like It sh it just 'Cause I know what it's like to carry all these damn stands down the block. It's just putting others first.

1:07:02 It can change your life and change what you get back. You just can't do it from a place of trying to get something. Like it's super weird if all of a sudden I bring the stand in and I'm like, Hey guys, I have a shoot after this, were you willing to da da da da da da'cause it's like oh I see I see where it's going, right? Because now it's insincere. It's totally insincere, right? There's an order to it and I think Approaching life from that perspective, I promise you, I always say this, you can never measure the ROI of a social interaction. You have no idea.

1:07:30 What one interaction will lead to. I mean I went to a an inter uh A meetup and I met you and now I'm here, right? Like just you never know what one thing is gonna do. So it makes sense that you wanna show up in a way that's about others as much as possible in these interactions because it comes back to It comes back. And even if it doesn't come back, I I tend to think you've

1:07:53 Most people feel better about themselves knowing they're for others than for themselves. My good friend Peter Kaufman has a saying, um Which is go positive and go first, and you really unlock the world. in a way that you can't even anticipate the second, third, fourth, fifth order consequences of that. But his theory is most people don't

1:08:12 go positive, go first. They wanna go positive, but they want the other person to go positive first. Yeah. So they sit around waiting for people to recognize their potential, for the world to give them what they're what they're owed. And because they're doing that, nothing happens because there's no action, so there's no Response. That's absolutely genius. It's and and in my opinion, that's what leadership is.

1:08:33 So leadership is that stepping up and and doing that. It's not waiting for it's I'm going to lead. And I love it because like everybody can be a leader. You ever been like on an elevator and it's like awkward and like the person who speaks up first and everybody laughs? It's like leadership right there. You broke the cultural norm and you said something. I I always get in there sometimes and I'm like, oh, it's the awkward elevator silence. Perfect, everybody laughs. Laughs instantly, right? Uh I wanna switch gears a little bit. What's the Rockefeller method? R okay, so I read I think it was Titan. Mm-hmm. Um

1:09:05 The book and there was a lot of lessons in that book, but there was one l story that fascinated me and it was Uh John De Rockefeller was in a b oil barreling facility. And he was watching

1:09:17 his group of people barrel these oil barrels and like back in the day you would take tar and you'd put tar all around the barrel and then you'd put it and you'd hammer it. And he's sitting there watching this and he's going, why do you use nine or ten or whatever pieces of tar? And they were like I don't know, Mr. Rockefeller, it's just what we do. And it was, and he was like, well, can you find out, do a do like a little study and find out how much can you do it without without ruining the integrity of it. And

1:09:47 I was like That's absolutely fascinating, like that way of thinking. And it's so cool to be like just Rockefeller sitting there as like Titan of Industry, looking at his really small process. And being like How can we optimize that? So after reading that, I made this like Rockefeller method internally, where every quarter I would sort of view things from that perspective, right? And uh it it comes up in weird like SAS ways right now where it's like, oh wow, we spent a lot of money on this.

1:10:13 like reach out to them and see if we could maybe get a bulk discount. And the amount that comes back from that method is absurd. Like just it it just works. And then also just think about it like in my own life. Like where am I putting extra tar on that I don't need to put tar on? And It's so helpful. 'Cause I am a very big

1:10:32 Control. do it myself ethos. It's like often hard for people to work for me because I'm like, I'll just do it. I'll just do it. And I have to almost get people around me that I'm like, listen. The thing I value the most. is when you say no, I'll do it and I'll do it better than you.

1:10:46 And then you back that up. Like and it's s and I need that sort of culture around me. But the Rockefeller method was Very helpful for that. What else did you take away from that book, Titan? Or lessons from Rockefeller.

1:10:58 So many like I f I found the um The uh when he was discussing how he didn't know how to give away his wealth. I thought that was like the most interesting. Problem ever.

1:11:12 I need to build a whole I don't know how to do this anymore. And how people were constantly asking, um Just the the ruthfulness of some of it all I've just The early monopolies were not a thing.

1:11:25 and just squeeze out, squeeze out, squeeze out everything. I found that really interesting. Yeah, I mean the funny thing is the thing I take away most from that book is that one story is that Rockefeller method out of everything. Also, I I learned this in graduate school at a I had a really good professor. I wish I remembered his name, but he uh our I was teaching it was like a terrorism class or something like that. And he the way we did it was we had to read six books in the class. Terrorism class. Yeah. So I got like my certificate in terrorism studies. Okay. Because I went to John Jay, which was a criminal justice study. Yeah. So it was really cool. We had like people from uh intelligent agencies come and give presentations and do all these things. So what he had us do is You gotta just read like six books?

1:12:08 And the only Assignment. for the entire class was to read a book. And take five passages out of the book? highlight it.

1:12:16 and write why they're important to you. And I was like It's I st I still do that to this day. So I still try to like I have like a Kindle connection where I just like highlight certain things because you highlight so much and then it all goes in one ear, out the other ear. But if you highlight five things that could actually improve or impact your life in a certain way or change your perspective,

1:12:36 So much t more tangible value from a book. So tell me your workflow. You go from Kindle to Notion, if I remember correctly. Yeah. Good. Kindle to readwise, read wise to notion. Okay. And then what do you do with it? So like I have this

1:12:52 Different colors mean different things. So I'm trying to improve my writing right now. So blue. Is a I like the way a sentence or a paragraph is structured. Red is I need to do like more research on this.

1:13:04 Yellow is one of those things that I want to sort of like take away from a lifetime perspective. And I've been trying to also I have a difficult time retaining a lot of what I read. Uh I'll remember aspects of this day for the rest of my life. Like I'm very good at like experiential memory.

1:13:20 But like things just go in one ear out the other ear. So I've been doing a a better job of like highlighting things that I want to remember. And I've been I'm wanting to use um It's like Japanese method of flashcards. Yeah, it's just basically create flashcards for my events so I guess start to keep things. 'Cause I remember when I used to teach, I used to like have all these like cool things in my head that I could pull from. And now that I'm doing more like Podcast like

1:13:42 I'll know a ton of researchers that I could reference, but I forgot their names. Yeah. So I'm like, yeah, that person from UPen. Like I'd rather just know their name. So just trying to be more intelligent about how I remember the sources and the things that are leading up to it. And then there's just certain like People or writers or authors that I use as like anchor points. Like one of them's like Robert Skopolski. Like uh how why Z don't get altered, determinism, behavior. He's like

1:14:08 While he's deep in Biology? He's pretty cross disciplined. Like he'll pull from different areas. So it sends you down all these rabbit holes. And I like to like document it in the best way that I possibly can. But I think AI is making that a hell of a lot easier now. Well, let's switch gears to AI. You're a master researcher. Uh, I'm curious about your process around using chat GPT

1:14:32 to get up to speed on something, or or how do you leverage AI to go about learning a new subject? Yeah, it's It's ridiculous, cause six months ago I was like I don't know. Like it would just make things up and now it's great. So one of my big things is I say I have a prompt that's if I'm looking at an academic discipline that I don't know a lot about.

1:14:53 I say I want you to imagine this academic discipline as the branch. And I want you to imagine the subcategories. As the uh I'm sorry, as the not the branch. I want you to imagine the base of the tree. as the discipline, the branch as a sub discipline.

1:15:10 and the leaves as the academics that correspond to that. And it does it for you. So like it goes into neurobiology. Like I've been really interested in predictive processing, which is this sort of universal theory for how Mm.

1:15:24 consciousness really is like how we process our world. And it's a it's a rabbit hole, to say the least, right? So It has all these different uh philosoph philosophical approach, all that. In order to understand that world, I need to understand the bigger macro principles behind it and like who the key players are in it. And th I mean you used to have to do that research or have a research team

1:15:45 I'd have somebody like do this and now I literally do it in a couple of prompts. It's in it's absurd. It's like absurd for workflows. Um, so then what do you do with it? You have the leaves, you have the people's name. And then I try to look for so I try to look for what are the three biggest sources of conflict. So what are they disagreeing about?

1:16:04 Like where is the big fight in the are you asking chat GPT? I've lately I've been asking chat GPT and the responses are Pretty good. It's pretty good. The problem so what I I I sort of back tested this and did it on things that I have an intimate knowledge about, right? So I I was like Like what are the discrepancies of research in universal of facial expressions and emotionality. And and I'm like, oh

1:16:29 Whoa. But I did it like six months ago and it wasn't oh it was bad. I was like, you just made up a person, this is not real, this is misappropriated, it is getting considerably better to the point of where I'm really trying starting to trust this tool. In six months from now, I think I'll have full confidence in these things. And also you can do like cool things, like we have a pretty robust database of all like the PDFs on nonverbal behavior from every academic journal that I've just been collecting.

1:16:53 I could build my own little language model on that and just ask questions and query that. I mean, there's different ways of doing it. But I mean AI's helped me with behavioral coding more than anything else. So I started this other company called Behavioral Robotics with the goal is to teach machines to read human behavior. Because if reading human behavior is all about these complex decision trees, there's no reason from a first principle perspective that a machine can't do the same thing. In fact, it should be way better than we should be way better because the camera on you is not just Blake's worldview. It's all these modeled out worldviews that can predict and understand. And I think it can be something really special. It's gonna take a lot of time to get there.

1:17:28 But um You know, my first big study on Beyond Tells, I spent like a stupid amount of money, like maybe quarter million dollars manually coding, like we counted Five hundred and fifty thousand blinks. Somebody so we had a team of like seventy people sit there and every time someone blinked, they clicked M on a keyboard.

1:17:46 And and it got cross validated and made sure it was right and all that. Not anymore. My machines do it. Like just run it. Amazon Web Services, every blink exactly when it happens. Accuracy is incredible. It's It's amazing.

1:18:01 So so how are you using it aside from that? Like what else are you doing with it? Because you had some interesting takes on like how you're leveraging AI. Yeah. So like I am using it to develop inventories and scales to better predict people that have social challenges. So for example, like we're building something right now that's like a facial Heat map. So basically

1:18:24 it could understand when I'm saying so I'm having a language just by words, right? So basically Our system takes all your movement and breaks down to raw data. coordinate data, so like where the hands and fixed points of the hands are moving, facial data, and a lot of this stuff is you can do it open source, but we're starting to refine it. So we're starting to understand like the composition of wrinkles in people's faces and then understanding how their facial movement changes the wrinkles to better classify behavior. And we know every word that everybody says at every second it says.

1:18:55 So then in interactions we could easily create summaries and inventories for like This is something where this person should have shook their head or shown some sort of facial reaction, but they didn't. So for a a a great example of this is a personal example, but my my dad passed away like literally two weeks ago from a two year battle with ALS, right? So horrible disease, horrible But to see how people handle death and react to death.

1:19:22 From my level of expertise has just been really fascinating. So some people are like, oh, so like, why aren't you coming? Oh, my dad passed away. And they don't have the mimicking Like the empathy, like I'm so sorry. They don't know how to do that. They're like, Oh, okay. And then I'm like, and I I have to know. So I'm like, listen, in that moment, you just like, oh I just feel really weird about death. I'm like, okay, thanks for but you should probably tell people that because that's gonna impact you.

1:19:46 So we can use machines to sort of identify that, right? We could basically know that like there's a low level of facial animation in this person's face. when this person said something that there should have been co social coordination. And that's the truth. Like Like all of these like I mean I'm Um

1:20:02 So it's almost like blind spot identifying for people because it's like hey You should have responded in this one way. You responded in a different way. That's not a judgment on how you responded, but we're gonna tell you how that's perceived. Exactly. So everything we do is about perception, not meaning. The biggest problem with this industry of nonverbal behavior and body language is it's pushed towards meaning, not perception. And the truth is it's just understanding that your behavior is outside the distribution of what would be perceived as socially relevant. And that's a lot more complex. Like all those like but there's also another angle to this, as we we keep talking about this, this is amazing for for classifying behavior.

1:20:41 But our society progresses because of people who are outside of the the norm. Like on an individual basis, it might be very detrimental to you on a societal basis. It's hugely advantageous to society to have people who operate outside the norms. So I wonder like to what extent if we try to rein people in to be more normal, we're actually giving up. Sort of

1:21:07 we're we're almost putting a ceiling on progress. Yeah, so this is my whole thing. So we wanna be to the right side of the bell curve, not the left. Yeah. So we I'm never pushing people towards normal. I'm getting them to understand normal, to be themselves in the most powerful way as possible, and to make sure they don't have behavioral blind spots that are completely gonna be like really ostracized by society. Like okay, you can't do that kind of thing. But I there's nothing more that I love when a person is just themselves. And just themselves. Like it it and that's a very attractive quality. That's like that's the definition of charisma in a lot of ways. Like somebody just walks in the room and they they own it. You're like, Who is this person? Like They must be someone, they must be something, but the truth is first you want to understand what normal is before you can. break normal, right? Like it that's how you know you're doing something that's on the right side of the bell curve. And I say that because

1:21:58 When you try something. that's on the right side of the bell curve and it doesn't work, you become the left side of the bell curve. So that's why you're always trying to push in the right way. Yeah, I like that a lot. Are there any other things you use chat GPT for? Um

1:22:12 I should use it more and more. I mean we use I mean I'm using chat E T. to build some of them. This is kind of meta, but I'm using chat GT to build some of the language models. that index and label communication,'cause it's phenomenal at that. So so for example, I was like trying to created a mechanism for determining

1:22:32 Assertion in text. So I said I posted in chat GPT like Three hundred separate Like words. Not words, phrases.

1:22:41 um that were from a conversation and I said, I want you to create an inventory. on a scale from one to five measuring assertion. First of all, what do you think is the opposite of assertion? And it's like, oh, probably passive. So all right, so assertive and passive, rank all of these. It was phenomenal at it. It w it like perfectly mimicked my like

1:23:01 what I perceive to be nuanced understanding of like the way someone structures a a phrase. And then you ask it, I said, okay, better yet, give me the rationality behind why. And it was like Because this answer is a little bit short and the other person's a little bit larger and it's da da da and I'm like, yeah, you got it. Yeah. It's phenomenal. But it goes into like hundreds of details that we can't even exactly comprehend. We can't even begin and like to me, this is my world of nuance, so I'm like Oh, this thing gets it. So I'm using it. I can do that to build out inventories like super quickly. Like it would have taken a lot of time.

1:23:34 Mm and effort to do that. I'd probably hire some like some PhDs to like sit there and blah blah blah. And now it's just like It's incredible. I don't know how else to describe it. I mean, yes, it's not AGI. Yes, there's so many other things. Yes, there's flaws. Yes, there's this. But as a tool.

1:23:51 Yeah. It is incredible. You uh use coaching as a tool. You have a lot of coaches. Tell me about the process you use to select coaches. And what's the difference between

1:24:04 A great coach and a good coach for you? That's a great question. Okay. So uh Process is not so much I'm always I always look for people that either I have had some sort of experience with

1:24:18 I like to follow people also, or I like to be coached by people that I believe are living. They're in alignment with their values. Like I

1:24:28 I know coaches out there in the world that I'm like, You're saying that, but your whole team hates you. Like how could you ever coach that? So I'm looking for that first. Do they show up? Because I tend to Stop listening to somebody if I don't see that they're They're teaching something and not applying it. Um I also just like a Uh maybe like a tougher coach?

1:24:48 Um, I I want somebody who's gonna call me out on my bullshit because I can be very convincing and I can argue and like stop. That's bullshit. Like one of my coaches, um Jocelyn Herman Sashoo, she is very quick to call me out on anything. She'd be like, that doesn't sound right. Like she just gets to the point and gets the heart of what's going on. And my other coach, John Michael Morgan, is very good at saying, like, well, you said this two weeks ago and now you're not saying this. Like I think it's very difficult to get people to hold us accountable.

1:25:16 And for us to be our word and all that. And then also I just Coaches for other things, like running and I just like coaching. Yeah. So if you're a coach And you don't have

1:25:25 Three coaches? You should stop being a coach. Well, it's really interesting, right? Because it it's a shortcut to sort of expertise in a way, which is like they don't have the expertise, they shouldn't be a coach. Uh, but from your point of view, it's like I can hire a coach who's done this, taught it. I can get up to speed rather quickly, no matter what the subject is. whether it's holding me accountable or like learning how to run longer distances or whatever objective I'm trying to achieve.

1:25:51 I now have access to sort of a better quality of thinking that I do in my immediate vicinity. Yeah, yeah. A hundred percent. And there's so many different and also just like I'm at point A.

1:26:02 I wanna get to point B. Yeah and I wanna get to point B, but I wanna minimize the suffering that I'm getting into point B. Find people to help me along that way. So if I were to go back, I always say this, I would go back twenty one years old and it was like what advice would you give your twenty one year old self? I would say

1:26:20 Get a coach, but my twenty one year old self would probably tell my Thirty eight yourself draw off. I don't need to make it. Well, let's go back to that a little bit uh I did want to touch on this before we wrap this up, which is You were a terrible student. Yeah. Up until university. Yeah. What changed?

1:26:38 Uh I felt like a complete failure. I think I had this identity that I was a smart person. And I went to school and at this moment where this kid next to me was going to West Point, kid to the left was going to Harvard. And I was like, I can't believe I just like wasted this whole thing and I was like, This is when everything changes. And literally it was the It was a massive identity shift for me. I had two big identity shifts.

1:27:00 That That moment When I shifted and when I started teaching psychology. Those are the two big things that shifted me. Go back to high school. Yeah. What was the shift? I was just like, I'm going to take school very seriously. I'm going to go to Harvard. I'm going to get my JD MBA. I made a decision that this is what I want. And it went a completely different way. But it it w I still

1:27:21 And worked like that. Yeah. Then your actions aligned with that identity. Yeah, a hundred percent. Like I was sitting I remember vivid conversations with my mom. She's like, Blake. Like what's the difference between like a ninety-five and an eighty eight? I'm like, you don't understand. Like I need my GPA to be four it was like the first time I really like applied myself to something. I I mean Except for like maybe gaming or a couple of other things that I did when I was younger. But um

1:27:46 I overcorrected. to say the least. And I was like stressed and dealt with a lot of other things and I think I I calibrated it like twenty one or twenty two to like, okay, now I know not to And also they're just like like weird systemic things. So in like City University, if anybody's still going there, like CUNY has the weirdest grading system. Where

1:28:06 And Mm. is ninety two and above from a numerical Point. So there's no point in getting a hundred.

1:28:14 Or ninety three. Yeah. So like if you're studying to get a hundred on a test, it's stupid. Like study for a ninety Get nineties across everything, be nice to the professor, you'll get an A. So it was just like seeing all this type of stuff. And then also like

1:28:29 Being in school had me like question a lot about psychology, question a lot about research. I learned how to critically think and then I apply that critical thinking to the the which I think was what you're supposed to do. Totally. Um but I'm like This study seems kinda like bullshit. Like there's not that many people here and like what's going on. And it really opened my eyes to like The flaws of research.

1:28:52 and how data can be manipulated. I had a very early experience with that where I had a My professor was an adjunct and he was the head of data analysis at the MTA at the time. And I had just done a study in my like experimental design class.

1:29:07 And I was like, Yeah, I'm doing this study. He goes, You seem really happy with your study. I says, Yeah. He's like, Give me the data set. And I vividly remember handing him a flash drive that had SPSS, my data set. He goes, What do you want it to show? I was like significance, of course. And he's like, watch this. And literally ten minutes later, he's like there you go. And it blew my mind. It blew my mind. That man blew my mind about how data can be manipulated. And he taught me at a very young age. He was like

1:29:30 This is w is what happening everywhere around. And he he was and he gave a an entire class on how data is manipulated. Oh yeah. In day to day life. And I remember Being like Oh my god. Like this is so cool. Like this is such a Well, imagine now, right? You just upload it for Chat GPT and you're like, I wanna show this. Give me the logic, give me the reasoning, lay it out with references. And you got a draft paper right there. Oh, that's another chat G PT point. So I probably spent

1:29:57 maybe a hundred and fifty thousand dollars in hiring data scientists to clean And two produce dashboards for Beyond Tels. Chat GPT? I could have done it all on a weekend.

1:30:09 Twenty bucks. Yeah. Yeah. Just sitting there. Insights are incredible. Yeah. I l I like the point about not uh You know, after ninety three it doesn't matter. So you might as well just optimize for ninety three.

1:30:22 But that's how uh this is this is a systemic problem in organizations. Well so you set the metrics and they were like, Oh, okay, so I need to do this more than this if I wanna get move up, right? Well, so this is interesting. One of my kids came home and he had a science fair project. And I was like, Oh, that's an interesting topic. And it didn't seem like something he was super interested in. I was like, Why'd you pick that? And he's like, Well If I pick what I wanted to, I'd probably win and then I'd have to present at like the regional science fair. And I don't want to present at the regional science fair, but I wanna get a good grade. But I don't wanna get like a really good grade. So he's like he's already thinking in terms of like optimizing for

1:30:58 It's a really interesting approach. I mean that's just like Sign of hyperintelligence in my opinion. Like the ability to Well no, but that's like the joke where a lot of people will s like a lot of wealthy people would be like, Oh, I wasn't smart, I was lazy. And I'm like, Yeah, but laziness embeds that level of sophistication, right? Uh, I get to interview the best people in the world. How can I ask better questions?

1:31:21 Oh. Well, these were really good questions. So one of the things I'm doing right now, I could do it on you. So we're doing a thing on how to ask better questions. So we're taking some really good question people. Like one of the people that I've seen evolve is Tim Ferris. his ability to ask questions in a certain way. And we basically

1:31:39 take every single interview he's ever had. And we analyze all the behavior. And we're looking at the nonverbal and contextual language patterns that do that. So I'll have to let you know because this is something that I'm like I can do it for you too. Yeah. Um, I think Oh God, those early interviews are terrible. But that's that's like the beauty of so like I've seen so many people like people that put themselves out there.

1:32:01 Like I find it so magical to see someone shift over years. And something that I've been like almost like afraid to do on video in a lot of ways, like not giving myself permission to just be myself on video. I'm being myself in person, but something about the video like we spoke about is like, whoa. But it you see people change and you see people like warm up and you see people become different over time. And I feel like That's so the that process is so much cooler than like just seeing a master.

1:32:27 Like anybody that puts themselves out there, y and applause to you for doing this right now. You're seeing their improvement. From where they started to where they ended. And I think the lessons in improvement. are the greatest lessons.

1:32:41 Like why did they go from the first 10 podcasts, they're asking questions this way. And the next ten they shifted. Like why? Yeah. Right? And understanding that context is um Oh, that's a good one. Like ask somebody Is there any context that you think I need to know? in order for me to ask a better question or to make this a better question.

1:33:02 I like that. 'Cause sometimes people don't give enough context and you they have to be prompted to. But once you give them the ability to give them more context, that works. And that's also a quick tip. That's probably my single biggest communication tip for everybody in a corporation. The more context, the better.

1:33:17 It's just that simple. I like the his works. one question before the last question. So the penultimate question, I guess, is we were talking about writing earlier. And the power of writing in terms of thinking. Can you expand on that?

1:33:32 It's Over time I have m seen more and more that it is probably one of the most powerful Self developed mediums. self-development mediums over anything. Uh, I think that people we're in a war, especially for those who are thinkers. I know I'm a thinker. I spend a lot of time in my head and not being present and thinking and processing. There's no checks and balances up here.

1:33:52 There's no one to stop and say, Hey, that's kind of not the right idea or not. When you write something out, you're creating reality. you're taking your thoughts and you're putting it out into reality and then there's an ability to critically Examine that.

1:34:06 And I just feel like it's so much help. It's so helpful. It allows you to structure your ideas. It makes you a better thinker. It makes you a better communicator. It's evidence of how you've shifted your thoughts and your principles and ideas over over time. I think a writing practice is so, so, so important. I think of it in terms of uh reflecting as well, right? So mental reflection, I tend to just keep going over the same things a lot, but when I write it down, it's like oh that doesn't make sense. You're checking your own thinking in a way, right? Because now you're and I prefer pen and pencil even if I like shred it or burn it after. Um

1:34:41 But you're checking your own thinking, and it's the process by which I discover I don't know what I'm talking about, but it's also the process by which I know where to look for more information. Where to go about it and learn what I'm talking about in a way that I can convey clearly to other people But it's also how I get new ideas. And

1:34:58 Importantly, how I give up ideas. uh which I don't think we do a lot of these days. And so there's like an ego thing to it where it's like you're practicing That's a really good sentence. You wanna keep it in and then you're like, Oh, I gotta get rid of it but doesn't fit with the piece, right? And but then you're giving something up and you you're sort of and then you can give it to other people and get feedback. Cause they don't see all the thoughts that you have in your head that you see. And so like they're giving you, Oh, this doesn't make sense. And now all of a sudden it's like oh I've got something here. Yeah, and

1:35:31 you talking about this makes me want to bring back this practice. So I started journaling And I started to realize that because I'm such an optimist, I lie in my journals. Uh so what I started doing was I made a video journal. And I sat in front of the camera. And I spoke to myself every day.

1:35:49 And I have some of these videos where it's like the IRS is coming after me. Like it was like the worst business moment. All this crazy stuff. And I have a video of myself like being like yeah things are okay and I have like big dark circles under my eyes and I look like Oh, you poor kid, things are not okay right now. Well'cause you have a different perspective. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. But also if I would have Watch even that video. After I recorded it, I probably would have seen that things are not so okay. With your analysis. Yeah, I would have been like the best kid. Uh so I think it's a helpful. But that optimism can be helpful, right? Which is I mean it's how you get through it. I've as an entrepreneur. I mean I

1:36:29 How you push through, right? It's like how Elon save. Tesla effectively like insane. But I'll Yeah. I won't say a lie, but you know, close to a lie and save the company through that lie. raise money and now we we have this, but had that not happened whether he was deceiving himself or deceiving other people or didn't even know he was deceiving himself or deceiving other people.

1:36:53 Uh objectively speaking It was sort of fiction. that save the company. So then d do the ends justify the means? Do the I mean I think so. As an entrepreneur, like There's there's like true belief. in being able to create something. Yeah. And you're not necessarily knowing what the path looks like. If you're gonna create something, right? And then there's just flat out

1:37:15 Micro Lies. Like and that line Is I think a lot different like intent is a lot of it uh of a different thing. But they but you know, a lot of people Well maybe they start off w was that uh the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I think that's what happens. I think people try to protect pride tech, they lose their values and then

1:37:36 Somewhere else. But yeah, I've I mean everybody does it. Like everybody any any VC pitch I've seen. Yeah. Come on. It's like It's a hockey stick right after this month, right? Like Exactly. It's like all right. No, our our users are we're redefining what active users is. Yeah. But they're growing up. Like it's like come on, we we all know the game. Um Yeah. The question we always end with is what is success for you? Success for me is pretty simple. You write things down and you accomplish it. That's success. I believe success is

1:38:06 a personal journey in whatever you want to do. So some people don't actually know what their version of success is and it just happens to them. So I think it's really helpful to sit there and be like, You know, I want a relationship where there's no friction and I have the love of my life. And like I I texted my wife. I was like, I miss you already. And we were gone for like eight hours, and it was like That's on the list. So I have a successful relationship.

1:38:29 the business right now is not necessar there's certain things that need to get changed this year. There certain things that need to change. That can be listed and I can measure if I'm successful or not. Cause the truth is If you don't do that, you're likely playing somebody else's game. Yeah. And it's just so it's so hard to live that life. Well, thank you for taking the time for this incredible conversation. Great questions.

1:38:51 Mmm Thanks and learning with us. For a complete list of episodes, show notes transcripts and more go to fs.blog slash podcast or just Google the Knowledge Project. Recently I've started to record my reflections and thoughts about the interview after the interview.

1:39:17 I sit down, highlight the key moments that stood out for me, and I also talk about other connections to episodes and sort of what's got me pondering that I maybe haven't quite figured out. This is available to supporting members of the Knowledge Project. You can go to fs.blog Slash membership. Check out the show notes for a link and you can sign up today. And my reflections will just be available in your private podcast feed. You'll also skip all the ads at the front of the episode.

1:39:44 The Fernham Street blog is also where you can learn more about my new book, Clear Thinking. turning ordinary moments into extraordinary results. It's a transformative guide that hands you the tools to master your fate. Sharpen your decision making. and set yourself up for unparalleled success.

1:40:01 Learn more at fs.blog slash clear. Until next time.

What you see above is a preview of the first minutes. One unlock costs 10 credits and covers this episode forever: full segment and word-level timestamps on this page, plus .txt, .srt, .vtt and word-level JSON downloads, as many times as you like.