Bruce Flatt on Value, Discipline, and Durability

0:00 the fundamentals of investing hasn't changed at all. Buying great things or great businesses, holding for long periods of time. Earning cash returns. What's changed is the environment around it.

0:13 Backbone of the world is changing. behind your phone or your computer. You can have this podcast. on your cell phone and go for a run in the morning. How that gets delivered to you is

0:24 Data center storing it, fiber delivering it to you. Going to a tower and bringing it down to your phone wireless. And all of that needs enormous amounts of infrastructure, and all of that is built by private enterprise. Fifty percent of the backbone of what we own today. did not exist as an asset class for investment twenty years ago.

0:46 Well, you have over a trillion dollars in management now. It sounds like a lot of money. It is a lot of money. It's a trillion dollars. But it's not that much when you do what we do. Yeah. Welcome to the Knowledge Project. I'm your host, Shane Parrish.

1:11 In a world where knowledge is power, this podcast is your toolkit for mastering the best of what other people have already figured out. If you want to take your learning to the next level, consider joining our membership program at fs.blog slash membership. As a member, you'll get my personal reflections at the end of every episode, early access to episodes, no ads including this, exclusive content, hand edited transcripts, and so much more. Check out the link in the show notes for more. Most investors see markets as a race to outperform every quarter. Our guest today, however, sees them as a marathon measured in decades.

1:49 As CEO of Brookfield Asset Management, he's quietly spent decades building a trillion dollar business. Investing patiently in the invisible machinery of the global economy. While others chase short-term returns, flat position Brookfield to capitalize on massive global shifts from digitalization and low carbon energy. to a reshaped global supply chain years before they appeared on anyone else's radar. In this rare public conversation, it's only the second podcast he's ever done, flat reveals not just what he invests in, but how he thinks.

2:22 From spotting trends early to structuring deals for resilience across economic cycles to placing big bold bets that compound steadily over time. He offers a masterclass in patient, disciplined investing. Whether you're allocating capital, building a business, or simply navigating uncertainty, you'll learn how one of today's most influential but private investors sees around economic corners and why his ability to ignore short-term noise might be his greatest competitive advantage of all. It's time? To listen. and learn.

2:57 The opinions shared on this podcast belong solely to those expressing them. Hosts and guests may hold positions in the securities discussed. This podcast is intended to provide general information only and should not be considered financial advice. I wanna start with how investing has changed over the past twenty three years, I think, since you've been CEO. Uh look, I on the first level, I'd say it hasn't changed at all.

3:23 What investing's about is to buying great things or great businesses, holding for long periods of time. Earning cash returns. And uh that hasn't changed at all. So the fundamentals of investing are exactly the way they were before. What's changed is the um

3:39 environment around it. Uh and I mention a couple of things. First one is um many uh businesses are publicly traded. and the indexing of um and passive investing has changed the

3:54 publicly traded market for investments. It's very different than the actual investments. investments are still the same and what we do is still the same. How they trade in the market and whether they're uh included in indexes has changed how they trade in the public markets. So I think that um is pro probably the fundamental biggest thing. The the second thing and and this is um

4:18 I I'd say maybe the most simple way to say it is Fifty percent of the things that we invest in today. Did not exist as an investment asset class. for investors like us twenty years ago. Fifty percent.

4:33 And and we invest in the backbone of the global economy. Like these are simple things. We Deliver your water in the morning. We We Deliver your power. uh to your house we um the data center that

4:48 Powers your phone. Um we own. Um, those are all really backbone things. So what we do is backbone. This is not innovative venture capital that we're doing.

4:59 But fifty percent in the backbone of what we own today. Did not exist as an asset class for investment twenty years ago. What percentage of that would you say is a new Um New things versus governments maybe um privatizing

5:15 Some of the services they used to deliver. When we started uh in infrastructure twenty five years ago, uh we were among the first, um We thought that it would be governments privatizing, and and to some extent it is. And it's not they're not privatizing because they have a hard time selling assets. Um, what they do is they're just not investing. Therefore private enterprise takes it up. But the biggest area of um investment today.

5:41 is really just the whole backbone of the world is changing. So um The digital digitization of um the whole world between behind your phone or your computer.

5:54 Um as you know, laptops didn't exist before, the internet didn't exist before Cell phones didn't exist before. Today you can have this podcast. on your cell phone and go for a run in the morning. How that gets delivered to you is Data center storing it.

6:12 uh fiber delivering it to you. going to a tower and bringing it down to your phone wireless. And all of that needs enormous amounts of infrastructure, and all of that is built by private enterprise. virtually every s all in fact not not virtually all of that

6:30 to you as an individual, and this is eight billion people in the world. Getting that delivered to them in various forms. It's all delivered by private money. And uh and that's what's changed. It's um before historically that was built out by governments, today it's being built out by um private enterprise, you know, to use an example. We own all of the telecom towers.

6:53 Not all, but we own a very substantial portion of the telecom towers in India. Um they deliver all the phone and wireless infrastructure to uh many individuals in India and that was originally built by Reliance Industries Gio. Um we bought it from them and we support their and other telecom companies activities through those Telecom Towers?

7:18 And um historically that would have been built by government. Um, but it was that's built by private enterprise. Let's go back to the rise of passive. uh maybe versus historically more active investing, what implications do you see? What opportunities are created? Look in every uh

7:36 In everything when there's a when I say there's a problem There's always an opportunity. And I think that's the Chinese symbol, right? Problem and opportunity. for some companies smaller, mid size, don't fit indexes They will be lost.

7:51 within um public markets investing. because active uh investors may not be investing in those sectors anymore. And if you don't fit the indexes, you have no buyers. Um Increasingly though, what it's doing is it it's creating

8:06 a a large disparity in some securities at points in time between the Price of them the market. And the value of the underlying assets back to You ask me. First question.

8:18 What has changed in the investing world, and I said nothing. That's related to value. W what's changed is the price of some things trades up and down. if over the last eighteen, twenty four months if you've been one of the big technology stocks in the world, everyone

8:36 needed or wanted to buy you in the indexes and therefore There are multiples traded very high. But if you were something that Um Didn't neatly fit the indexes.

8:48 Um it traded at a low price. the opportunities are that we can take those companies private. So we took a large container shipping company private. It had one It had one analyst and nobody following it. It fit in no indexes. It was a six billion dollar company.

9:07 Uh, and we took it private, and it's been an exceptional investment. Um so we continue to I to capitalize on opportunities where the Where we understand the value. And the price is not trading at that in the markets.

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9:43 What can you do with a private company that you can't do with a public company? Well firstly you don't have to look at what the price is versus the value. You just know what the value is and you run it. Yeah. But secondly, um

9:57 We can operate differently, finance differently, invest for the future. And run a business like somebody should just run it. If you and I owned a business. Privately.

10:10 We wouldn't care about the markets. We wouldn't care about whether the stock went up or down tomorrow morning. We just run our business. cash flow comes out, we decide should we diven it out to ourselves to use Together? Or should we keep it in the business and invest?

10:24 And um And that's really the the the difference is all you look at is the fundamentals of your business. If you're private. And uh if you're public People tend to get distracted.

10:40 By the trading price of the security. When it's not really relevant. Um, some businesses need access to capital and have to raise capital and therefore their price is uh important but most businesses that are listed.

10:55 don't need access to capital. They're only listed because they're large um And they happen to be just they need owners and therefore they're in the public markets. They're never issuing equity. And therefore the price of the security in the market really does matter.

11:10 And uh in fact it's a distraction. Wh which is why when um People often ask me why why what happened with the alternatives industry and why did it grow? the extent that it grew over the last twenty five years. And it's it's really grown that way because

11:27 Um private assets Uh Are the fundamentals are exactly perfectly match to the fundamentals of what institutional investors want to have in their portfolios.

11:39 And maybe even more importantly. By owning them privately, they don't have to have the distraction of the public market. Don't have to get confused that You and I

11:51 bought a Telecom Tower. Business. It generates a six percent yield. It grows at Four percent every year.

12:01 And um we don't have to invest much cash flow into it. So it's free cash flow. And uh If it's privately owned, it's just we just watch the cash flow and keep growing and try to enhance the business and grow it. And that's what we do privately. If it trades in the public market and today it's worth twenty dollars and tomorrow because of Whatever happens in the markets, it's worth ten.

12:23 Nothing changed in the business. And uh and that distraction is what causes people Um Issues. They sometimes make rash decisions. And uh and I'd say that's

12:35 Maybe the Biggest. um enhancement to long term investors. uh by having private assets. I take it you're not an efficient market hypothesis person. The answer's no. Um the the uh

12:51 The markets are never efficient. In fact, a very seldom do they ever trade at the at the actual um value of securities. Either most of the t most of the time. They trade above or below Very seldom do they trade at the at the value.

13:09 But yes, I guess there are many theories in life. Let's talk about some of the trends going on in the world today that you see from your aperture that you think have a long runway that we're maybe just beginning on or maybe in the middle innings on. So we uh Generally have three sort of themes that we

13:28 invest around or a f we have a few themes we invest around at all points in time today. We have three. Um the first one is uh Just the digitalization of everything and the amount of capital that's being invested. um behind that digitalization. Uh and and and really what it is is

13:47 There are many, many, many, many trillions of dollars. going into Um the uh movement of information into the cloud.

14:02 Onto your phone. And just the digitalization of everything behind it. And um that has been Uh

14:10 Enhanced, increased, enhanced. Buy artificial intelligence and the network's being set up now to harness artificial intelligence.

14:22 And um may maybe the most simplest way to explain it is Everyone thinks of artificial intelligence as chat GPT. I'm gonna get it to write my uh cooking class uh memorandum. Uh huh.

14:37 But really what it what the where the money is going to be made is the application of artificial intelligence into business. And simply stated that Taking processes in service and industrial businesses.

14:55 and making them more efficient. by using advanced robotics who have learned how to make who would run those processes. From uh models run on artificial intelligence and

15:08 We're in the very, very early stages of that. But um From an infrastructure standpoint, the amount of money being put behind this. uh is uh in amounts which have almost never been seen invested before. So that's sort of the first

15:25 theme we have in uh of investment, and it both affects our operating businesses because we're We're now applying artificial intelligence in our business to make them better. And they'll be more productive. Uh and we're also investing in supporting many of the technology companies with their

15:42 Um Funding for the the re digitalization of the world. Let let's spend a few minutes on digitalization before we move on in the sense of Yeah, there's um vast data centers being created today. I would love to hear your thinking on

15:59 whether that investment is going to be where winners are accrued or we over investing as we typically do in booms and boss. And then walk me through sort of like how you see winners emerging in this. Um from end to end, right? You generate energy, you lease data centers, you Walk me through how you see that.

16:20 So um There's no straight line in investing to success. And usually at point in time. People will lose money'cause they get over excited. Um, but uh

16:33 We're in a period of time where this is a major, major build out of what's going on. Um the clear winners uh in this um AI revolution are going to be the major uh technology companies. That that's sort of easy.

16:49 They're very sophisticated. They have large balance sheets and capital to deploy. um they they've already developed models and they're gonna be very, very uh they're gonna win. They're gonna win their donation. And they have enormous amounts of data. So all of they're going to they're going to win up. That that's easy. Like I'm not sure.

17:09 Um, there's anything that I would that that's helpful to you to anyone listening to this, if I tell you Oh, you should buy Google. Um These are gonna be great companies and they're gonna continue to be great. The winners that are

17:21 Unknown today. Are the companies that are going to figure out how to apply artificial intelligence into their businesses and make them better. And um

17:35 There are many businesses today where uh You cannot get people to operate. the businesses. There just aren't enough people. And if you can therefore deploy robotics. into businesses.

17:49 and um shrink the amount of labor you need. Or there are plants that are being operated in Asia. That um had high dollar value. That's why they went there, but w the reason the high dollar value products But they went there because there was high labor component.

18:06 If you can shrink the labor component. Um many of those plants can come back to where the demand is, um, specifically I'd say the United States. So The uh the unknown winners. are gonna be the companies that can apply

18:21 Artificial intelligence. um into their businesses and make them more efficient and more profitable. And I and I I think Um those that do it will win, those that don't, some will fall behind. Um, but the productivity advances we see over the next twenty years probably will be unprecedented for a period of time.

18:42 Um certainly one we haven't seen it for a long time uh in business uh across America. Is there anybody you're tracking externally that that you would never acquire that you're you admire how they're applying sort of technology? Um, we're talking to many. We've of course given their scale, we have access to um very significant resources, uh and we can talk to most people. So we talk to all the technology greats. We deal with all of them, um in our fundamentally in our business. Um in addition to that uh we're continuing to learn and apply these technologies within our business. And what I can tell you is the early learnings

19:25 of our business, some of our industrial businesses are V and why I have why I can s why I say the things I just said to you. Is it the early learnings are that um the advan the advancement of productivity is very, very significant.

19:43 And you see that in your battery like you guys make half the batteries in the world, don't you? Look, our uh we make all uh just under half of the car battery. So we me we make the little car battery that starts your car, you know, when you uh Get up in the morning, it doesn't start and you have to go get a new one. So that normally half of those in winter half of those will come from us. Yeah. uh that are out there and uh it's an amazing business and we continue to

20:09 Re you know, we're always trying to optimize businesses. Our job is to uh invest in businesses and Make them better. So that they will

20:19 grow greater amounts of cash flow so we can continue invest in the businesses and and um provide dividends to our owners. And so we're as we try to make these better, we're we're applying artificial intelligence into all our businesses, including that battery business, which is And why it's a perfect one. for these type of applications is we have twenty five thousand people in twenty plants. We do very repetitive process.

20:46 And as a result, and we have nine billion dollars of costs within the business. If you can. uh improve those by thirty percent. That's a lot of money to the bottom line. And um and it can be very significant for the company.

21:01 Is there another example that stands out about how you're applying AI to the businesses that you control? Every single business we have. Um, we have a health care uh business where we have um We approve your health care uh in the United States if you need a

21:20 back surgery and you need the uh authorization from your insurance company to do it, we take the phone call. Uh from you and we approve it online. uh we approved your hundred and fifty thousand dollar Operation. Uh or not.

21:35 And uh our agents do that. And today the amount of information we can put up when you call in. Is incredible. uh even from two years ago is incredible, and that just helps us make Better decisions, quicker.

21:50 And server clients. Or the the healthcare companies better. And um but it's everywhere. We you know, we the The the putting We're we're you know, we're applying these type of things in all the businesses, but we're in the

22:04 We're in the first inning of this. So it's um Anybody that has and started should start. Uh be and it's not too late. We're in the early innings of the application of this.

22:17 It's exciting to see where it's going. So we have a trend of digitalization. What other big trends do you see? The second one is that there is a transition of the world. To Low carbon energy. And uh and I say it that way because

22:33 I what what's really important here is we just have less carbon out there. And and but what's w what's even more important today is that m solar and wind, which is where we're um Which is what's filling the gap. Are the lowest Cost.

22:49 Energy sources. For power. in the world in most countries today. And why that's really important is It doesn't matter whether you choose to

23:00 have less carbon or no m uh don't care about less carbon. What you do choose is to pay less for your power. And uh that that's the the simple economics are today. If you go to somebody and say do you want to pay more for your power? They will say n they will say, No, I don't want to pay more for the power. I'd rather pay less.

23:21 And and as a result of it The lowest cost power in most countries of the world is solar and wind, therefore you're gonna choose solar and wind. So it it's inexorable that we're gonna build out most more solar and wind in the world. Um in the United States today, there's no doubt we're drilling more oil. Which is member, oil's not used in power.

23:40 Oil is used for Basically cars, chemicals, and um planes. They it goes into jet engine fuel. goes into car engine fuel. And it goes into chemicals.

23:52 And that has nothing to do with power. Oil's not used for power. Natural gas is And natural gas is one of the great assets the United States has. Um it's going to export it for a long time. It's gonna use a lot of it in America. Eventually batteries and nuclear

24:10 will be the baseload and it won't be natural gas. But It's being shipped. Elsewhere in the world. And where it's going to is needed for base load'cause they they um

24:23 They they need that. That base load power. Or it's replacing coal. Which is hugely beneficial to the world. So natural gas is an incredibly important

24:35 bridge fuel in America and long term fuel in many other places in the world. So the LNG market uh in the United States is extremely important and very lucrative for a long period of time. So let me make sure I understand this. So wind and solar are low cost and then gas is sort of the base load when there's no wind or solar because we don't yet have the batteries to time shift. We have we have base load capacity in the US, which is nuclear Um that will continue to grow. We talk about nuclear

25:06 If we have time later. Um What's happening uh in in grids is that you need something to stabilize the grids and to store when'cause remember, solar, the sun only shines During the day.

25:20 It's d usually dark at night. And Wind actually. Usually only blows at night. But you normally don't have

25:27 S the the um incidents of both together are not always The case? And you have to have something to bridge One of those.

25:38 And uh increasingly In past nuclear's done that and gas has done that. Increasingly battery storage. Uh at scale. Distributed.

25:51 will help both with trans transmission bottlenecks, but also with the um the two offsetting uh amounts. How how do you see the trend with like data centers in in terms of electrical use? Do you see that continuing to be Because these take a long time to permit to get into place, or do you see that reducing Uh in time. So so the reason why uh one of your questions earlier, which I really didn't answer, was um

26:18 our data centers, are we uh we gonna get in trouble with the amount of money that's going into data centers and The answer is no, and it's largely because It takes a long time to permit a data center. power the data center. And the needs of the technology companies are very significant, and on top of that

26:38 Energy usage everywhere is going up. And as a result of that. It just takes time to bring sites on, and most sites today. that are available to be built. are already contracted to somebody for the next twenty years.

26:56 So um We're in a we're at a a point in time where it's it's We're now trying to entitle new sites. And we're because of our vast real estate business, our vast power business, our vast data center business. Whereas

27:11 skilled and as um integrated as they are to entitle new sites, but it takes time. And um we've got some really exciting large sites coming. But these most the the earliest big one that's gonna come on that's brand new that we're entitling will and even though it has enormous advantages. because of it already has power, it'll be years.

27:37 Away. It's your con your risk is your de risk because you're not doing it unless it's contract it out, is that G generally yes. We're not uh we don't we've n we've net in past we never have and uh I don't think we um we need to. Take risk on that.

27:55 When we build an office building, you know, you're you Pew. Let it to a bunch of tenants and then you build it for them. And uh you don't have to take the risk on that in in particular in these because of the um demand for it. And what's the third trend that you see? So so the

28:11 The Third trend that we um identified a long time ago, and I'd say it's Uh changed even more, but is more relevant today than ever, which is just the deglobalization.

28:24 of industry And I or or I'd call it the reindustrialization of countries because of what's going on in the world. And uh that started with Covid.

28:37 It started. With um uh the Asia West. Issues. Which as you can imagine

28:45 That one has only Um The the uh since we coined that Four years ago. Five years ago, it's only increased.

28:54 Given what's been going on. Um, but increasingly many companies are moving. uh industrial capacity. back to Western markets where

29:05 On balance they can um make sense of putting plants there. Part of it's for supply chain. Pharmaceuticals. Uh ne now need to be

29:15 Next some of it needs to be next. to customer. Um, because they get caught during Covid that all of a sudden all my manufacturing's in China, how do I get it here? It can't get out of China, what am I gonna do?

29:30 So increasingly those type of things um But but also with tariffs and with Other things. Um, you're going to uh relocate manufacturing capacity back to to other markets.

29:44 and and be l more local. And um What I would say is things many things went to Asia and a lot of them will stay there and the Asian markets will be fine with this because they've

29:58 They've now matured. to the point where they are service economies in themselves. But um many products that have been developed there. will move back to America because the labor components with robotics

30:13 Coming in. are becoming less and less and less. So the reason for them to be in Asia Is um Less there today than it's ever been, and on top of that. if there happens to be a tariff long if there is a tariff longer term.

30:30 then um then it's even gonna quicken that process. Up. What do you see as the second order either opportunities or challenges to that sort of Call it.

30:42 repatriation of manufacturing. Look, I think China w it's a co it's an economy in itself today. It's one point five billion people. They're getting richer every day. They're turning into a consumer service society. There's not that much of manufacturing that's relevant to them. I think they will

31:00 They will do extremely well as a country. Uh on their own. But there are some countries in the world Where they haven't yet transformed themselves to be service economies and they're reliant on jobs.

31:14 That were from outsource manufacturing and if you can do that closer to consumer. Those um countries may have some issues.

31:26 On balance for Western countries. I'll just Take the US as an example. You're bringing some jobs back, maybe not as many as left before to make the product. But if that product comes back, you've actually added jobs.

31:40 And uh and that's very positive, which s sort of leads to the long term story of America, which is The long term story of America is extremely strong. Because um The US today has uh Energy.

31:57 Capital and technology dominance. Energy. Capital. and technology dominance. There's nobody in the world that has the technology businesses that the US has. There's nothing in the world that has the capital markets the US has.

32:14 And The US Just by nature. Has Dominance.

32:21 Nature and some hard work. has dominance In oil. in gas, in solar, and in wind. And it has dominance in nuclear.

32:31 And those five things together give it energy dominance in the world for a long, long period of time. And um so I think those three Those three things are going to make On top of

32:44 One of the greatest GDPs in the world. An entrepreneurial m class. Manufacturing moving back. At least to some extent. A lot or to some extent on balance is gonna be positive.

32:56 for for growth. Um the US has a Pretty Good runway going forward. It sounds like you think we're at an inflection point for productivity.

33:08 And some of the the job losses will be offset by sort of the remanufacturing uh coming back to the US. H how do you Where do you think we are in that? Try like that. Game, I guess.

33:20 There is no straight line in anything. Everyone always thinks that uh somebody says something and it's gonna happen tomorrow morning, usually Usually it happens. Yeah.

33:30 uh in greater amounts, but it takes longer periods of time. and take slower than you think it would happen. Um, I I would say we're in the early stages of all of this. uh we're seeing going to see productivity advances and nobody just flips a switch. Thing is n nobody ever s fli flips a switch. These are

33:47 incremental changes over very long periods of time, but it's qu what it means is that this that the application of greater intelligence into businesses. is going to Um make

34:03 business. Better. more efficient, more productive, and um And better better better for the world, frankly. Um that that just makes us all

34:14 uh smarter. You mentioned real estate. How has that changed over the past, I would say, ten, but specifically five years? You know, again, I would say, uh Over the past Uh twenty five, thirty years, ten years, five years, um, these things always just evolve.

34:31 And uh you know, industrial capacity used to be just used for manufacturing storage of goods and today it's used for transportation of many Goods that are delivered to homes. So industrial has

34:45 chain enormously changed as a business over the past ten years. Retail has changed because people used to All their shopping. uh uh in stores. Today what they do is they do very The spoke shopping in stores and they want experiences in stores.

35:06 But if you want to buy paper towels, you usually don't go to the mall. You just order it. Online. And um But but if you want to have a meal and you wanna go and try on a shirt. Or a pair of pants or have some fun for the afternoon, you go to the mall.

35:20 And that's That's what's changed is that commodity goods The own commodity If you want almost today commodity anything, it's bad. Feeling come out of the office bad.

35:31 Young commodity retail bad. Young commodity industrial bad. Fact if you own commodity hotels, bad. Um if you what's Great today.

35:41 Is all of those things. In the Top twenty five percent. And our our view always has been buy the best. Uh own the best, buy the best. continue to reinvest into the best and so our real estate is among the best in the world.

35:56 um and we continue to um experience some some Great numbers. five years because of Covid and because of other things. And because interest rates went up by four hundred, five hundred base points. Um, all of that disrupted the real estate market, but the

36:16 The worst is uh behind us by far. We're looking in the rear view uh mirror by by um Uh what happened in real estate. And in fact this time the fundamentals Are actually pretty good in most

36:30 Thanks. Um It's just There are some people that have uh capital structures.

36:37 That aren't built for these financing markets. Uh, and therefore they'll have to put capital in to be able to deleverage or whatever they have to do, or or somebody else will Take over the asset. Um But that's not a uh huge issue.

36:52 Across the world. Maybe spend a few minutes and and sort of like take me behind the scenes in how you think about risk and how you think about interest rates and how you think about debt. When it comes to assets. Our uh our fundamental thesis of investing is that you should put a prudent amount of debt On assets.

37:12 that can withstand markets, um, if you can. Then you should fix it. Because you know your cost. And um And from time to time if you got it wrong, you put a little more make sure you have a little more money around to

37:26 put it in and and support your asset. So um we've always conservatively financed our Businesses and assets. All of our financing is asset by asset by asset by asset or business by business by business by business. So Any

37:42 debt that we accumulate onto our consolidated balance sheet is just the accumulation Of a whole bunch of single asset financings. And um And it's not that we ever

37:53 One to Give back assets. Or not live up, in fact our reputation is with our lenders is that

38:02 We're one of the best sponsors in the world to borrow uh lend money to because we support our businesses. But buying have having asset by asset by asset financing. Allows you to just deal with the situation one by one by one. And and its duration.

38:19 Mean they're spread over long, long periods of time. And um And with interest rates. Um I think the most important thing to remember is We don't borrow the treasury rate.

38:31 Only the government borrows at treasury rates. And uh what we borrow at is Treasury rate plus spread. Yeah. And

38:40 historically spreads were two hundred basis points. And interest rates were Uh three hundred basis points and therefore you borrowed at five. And when co when covet hit

38:51 Interest rate, uh the treasury rate went to zero. And what the bor most of the lenders said to us is, eh, I'm not gonna lend you at at two hundred over and give you three. I'm widening that out to to uh three fifty. So I'll give ya.

39:07 Five. Yeah or four and a half. And uh therefore Before we were boring at five and in Covid we were boring at four and a half. So when people say, Oh, geez, you got

39:18 All this financing and Covid. Um Yes. Maybe some people did and some people got very ex low rates because rates were zero and they might have borrowed at two at a extreme point in time, but not very much.

39:32 Lenders just widened the spread out. Today Base rates are high, we're back to five. Guess what?

39:40 spread are the lowest they've ever been in history. We just did a thirty year Brookfield corporation financing. So we're

39:51 borrowing money for thirty years. Fixed. for that time period and is a hundred and twenty five. So It spreads.

40:01 Basically all in coupons are important. And um And that's really important to remember about Um

40:10 Investing in real assets. Uh real estate, but also infrastructure, renewables, et cetera. What distortions do you see by sort of like historically low interest rates and even by today's standards, you mentioned they went up. They've they have gone up quite a bit, but historically they're still well below Average. Yeah, look, I think the um that's That that maybe is the most important

40:31 Point. to note here is that um Interest rates. Aren't that high. They're they're higher than they were.

40:41 Because interest rates went to zero. And for a number of years after the financial crisis they were close to zero. And uh N now they're actually in a normal a relatively normal range. I'm sure we're gonna see another Few hundred f few

40:56 another fifty, hundred base points off of the short rates. And we're gonna settle into just a regular range. Of Rates. But these rates are actually

41:08 pretty normal and for our business very um constructive. And the things that we can do and we're f refinancing at,'cause the coupons aren't that much different than what they were before. People. We we talked about sort of dislocations providing opportunities and

41:26 You know, maybe spend a few minutes walking me through how you think of positioning to manage the recycle, but not only maintain your assets. But also take advantage of dislocations in the market. So the first thing one has to do when there are dislocations in the market is make sure that You have been you were prepared for it.

41:47 So the one thing you should do always when times are really good is ensure that you're preparing for the down markets that's coming. Uh the ones that don't uh usually aren't successful in the fullness of time. But if you are prepared.

42:03 The first order of business is Let's double down and make sure that we're fully prepared. But then secondly and and and And um I'd say coming out of recessions or cycles, uh coming out of the bottom.

42:17 What's most important is just have everything you have intact. Do not lose anything. Do not lose too much. And keep going. because there'll be many people who have lost stuff. What's even better to enhance the business is

42:32 Uh that point in time as the market's starting to recover and once you're comfortable We've taken care of all the things within our business. That you can and then invest capital.

42:45 Um into new businesses. At that point in time and add to your entity. And if you can That's the difference between the great winners.

42:59 and long term investing and the um and those that are just in the middle. You have almost well, you have over a trillion dollars in management now. How do you fend off the pressure to deploy that money.

43:13 It sounds like a lot of money. It is a lot of money. It sounds like a lot of money. But it's not that much. When you do what we do. Couple years ago we bought Deutsche Telekoms, half a Deutsche Telekoms Telekom Tow business in Germany, uh and Austria it's twenty billion dollar transaction. We're building for Microsoft thirteen billion dollars.

43:36 of power plants. Um We're building with Intel a thirty two billion dollar uh fabrication plant in Arizona. Um you know, and go through the list. These are large transactions that consume significant amounts of capital.

43:53 That earn excellent long term returns. And um I've just used that to say We're we're We've been doing this a long time.

44:05 Um, what we promise our investors and our clients is that we will take moderate amounts of risk. Um, not no risk, but moderate amounts of risk and earn Um good good returns over long periods of time. We won't shoot the lights out.

44:21 You're not gonna get forty five percent returns every year. Um, and we're not trying for that. But average returns over an above average period of time equal Outstanding returns. Yeah, and that's the point. The point is we've earned our parent companies earn nineteen percent return annualized returns for thirty years. Uh when you compound up.

44:43 Which doesn't sound like very much, nineteen percent returns annualized for thirty years. Like it just when you say that in that line. Doesn't sound like that much, but I think that's a million dollars became almost two hundred million dollars. over that period of time or a thousand dollars became two hundred thousand dollars. It's a lot. And uh so so the point is Success in investing isn't about making a lot of money in a short period of time.

45:10 What it's really about is Earning reasonable returns over very long periods of time. And and look, look that's Berkshire Hathaway. Berkshire Hathaway is successful. Because um uh they have been able to deploy capital at reasonable rounds a turn.

45:27 over very long periods of time. And uh And that's the success of long term investing. Is that a company you look up to? Th look, they've done an incredible job in uh in their business over a very long period of time.

45:41 Maybe you mentioned over thirty years. Walk me through a little bit of the history of Brookfield and then the future, where we're going. So we started as an operating business. We just invested for ourselves. Um We had the businesses

45:59 That we basically have today. uh infrastructure, real estate, renewables. an industrial service we call private equity today, businesses and credit lending. Those were our five businesses. We did it for ourselves and we lent money. And um

46:14 twenty five years ago we decided that we could take those skills we had. And turn them into a business to be able to um manage Some of our money. And some of our institutional or other clients' money.

46:30 And um and offer alternatives into those funds. When it started. nobody wanted to invest with us'cause they didn't really understand alternatives. And today, um, that's turned into a trillion dollar business. Um it's been extremely successful. Largely because

46:50 Um these products are ideal. For institutional and retail clients to invest into and the the past Twenty five years has been about institutional and

47:02 And this comment is not meant to say that they won't be investing. But they're s th their increase from going from zero to some of them are at thirty, forty, fifty percent alternatives. Um, when you go from zero to fifty, it can't go to a hundred. So s a lot of them are at their m uh numbers, but what's happening today and and to your question of the future

47:26 Із тем феномена. is now happening in retail. uh retail being individuals. four on Ks in the U S are gonna open up to alternatives. I think plans around the world will open up two alternatives.

47:41 Uh alternatives are ideal products for retail as well. In fact they're almost more ideal because You're saving for your Retirement. And uh what better to have in there than a product that earns

47:57 a reasonable return over a very long term T long period of time and can compound. And so the The future of our asset management business is really about

48:08 Um that Um the opening up of retail and continued growth of retail wealth. uh with our products. Doing the same things that we Do for institutions.

48:21 Exact same. But now just opening up in different types of products that are suited or tailored for um individuals. What does that mean? Maybe walk me through it because you know, I've always thought you've had these available to people. I could go buy Brookfield infrastructure on the public market.

48:38 Y you can buy it in the public market that fits in a stock portfolio, but you To date. We haven't offered you A product. for your four one K in the private market. Okay.

48:51 There was open to you to say, do you want to buy um infrastructure with us. And just own a bunch of data centers and different things like that. Um, we happen to have a couple of listed ones.

49:04 That are very unique, but but Uh uh what people want is private assets within their portfolios, and that's going to increase I'd say exponentially over the next twenty years. So retail is sort of the future, but another big area that you're investing in is insurance. Maybe walk me through some of the opportunities you see. over the next twenty or thirty years in insurance. Yeah. So outside of our asset management business, uh, we decided to um

49:33 take po a portion of our capital and um put it into insurance five years ago was a fortuitous time because we bought some um excellent insurance companies. uh at a point in time where they weren't doing very well because interest rates were extremely low and they weren't earning very high returns on their capital. fast forward four years later, the companies are doing extremely well. We're making two billion dollars a year of cash flow within the

49:59 Business. And um And insurance for us is is um I I'd say the following. Firstly, uh And maybe just go back. Our goal was

50:10 Get in the insurance business. Not not because we wanted to be an insurance. What our goal is, is Our clients Come to us. Because they

50:23 Um They want our investment skills. What we have is a very unique offering is a bunch of investment skills that can create products. Um, for

50:34 long term investors. uh our insurance company now being uh Hundred and twenty billion dollars of assets. is a perfect long term uh investor into all of the things we do from our asset management business. So we have a special

50:49 Um special expertise to be able to offer because we have access to our investment products. Or great we have greater access or greater comfort. with all the investment products to be able to put into the insurance companies than most other

51:06 Uh uh groups out there. Maybe there's a few other Others like us, but not very many. And um therefore we have a special benefit for that. So we we've

51:17 chosen annuities um in the United States largely. So far we've now just got licensed in the uh United Kingdom. Um but appeals to you about that. It's just because they're they're low risk liabilities. We we we're not taking on high risk on the liability side. Our goal originally w was in getting into this. was don't take risk on the liabilities, earn a money on the asset side. And um

51:43 And we have this unique ability to earn excess returns on the asset side. And our goal was Put very significant amounts of capital and over capitalize the businesses. Which allows us to do things in the

51:59 on the asset side of the balance sheet, which is very Um different than many insurance companies. And what you know we we can own real estate uh to a greater extent. We can own alternatives to a greater extent. We can own infrastructure to a greater extent. Um we can own high yield bonds as opposed to just uh fixed income on the market.

52:19 um all the things that we do for our clients. Um, we can put them in the insurance company. And they may take more capital. But we've overcapitalized the company. So we started with four billion dollars, we've increased the capital, I think, to seven, sixteen, seventeen billion dollars of Book.

52:36 Equity um within the business. We continue to overcapitalize. But on top of that, we have another hundred billion, hundred and fifty billion dollars of capital up top that if we need more money, we'll put it into the insurance companies to Ensure they're healthy and better than any that are out there. And um and we have an excellent relationship with the regulators.

52:57 Um and explain all these things to them and are very transparent with all the transactions we do with them. Um, and we happen to have some very unique things that we can do. Because you know, for example If we own an office building and somebody owns

53:13 the other half and they want to sell. And we know That's a really cheap uh price they're gonna sell at. Um

53:21 That's a great real estate investment for our in For our insurance company. Very seldom do people have that opportunity. with our knowledge and access to opportunities. So it's a pretty unique

53:33 um offering and and that's what we what we bring to the table. Do you think you'll get out of annuity, well, stay in annuities, but expand into other businesses? I am imagining short duration stuff is probably a property and casualties. Is not doesn't lend itself to that type of investing, but maybe reinsurance or Yeah, look, I I I would say we wanted to start this is a twenty five year venture. Uh we're five years in. Um We wanted to start to make sure that we uh

54:04 uh knew what we were doing. We met all our regulators, we uh earned their respect. Um And we um We operate we could operate and figure out what were all the risks.

54:16 Um, we've been in it five years. We're very comfortable over time. uh we may branch out into other types of Uh Other Products.

54:28 that we can understand that fit our skill set. And um and that's really what's important to us. So first we're expanding internationally writing Annuities. Or p pension risk transfer annuities, which are

54:41 Both are very similar. Uh so instead of Instead of going out of our uh comfort zone on the type of Liability.

54:51 What we're doing today is we're expanding to the UK. And which is a big uh pension risk transfer market, and that That's just a different way to expand. Are the pension risk defined benefit or defined contribution? These are Uh pen pension risk transfer means

55:08 Which happens in the US Canada and the UK largely, those three places in the world. Um What it means is that if there's a corporation that has a defined benefit plan that wants to get it off their balance sheet.

55:22 So they're not going to be able to do they have a ten billion dollar plan. There's ten billion assets, ten billion liabilities. they can commute that plan to us and we can our insurance company can take it. So they're no longer on the hook for the plan, they're no longer uh at risk on the assets or the liabilities.

55:39 We've assumed that risk. We will now pay their pensioners. And they gave us the assets to earn over time. Hopefully. the amount of money to pay all their pensioners. And if not, we're on the hook for it, not them.

55:52 Can you spend a few minutes walking me through the machinery of Brookfield and why you've structured it the way you have? Okay, I I would just say um Like one I'll I'll preface this with like one of the criticisms from the outside in is that it's super complicated. There's a lot of different entities and moving parts. How do you think through that? So I would just say that uh

56:13 Yes, there are probably more pieces of Brookfield. For Sam Mont. I I I I I might disagree first by saying There there are Many companies in the world

56:27 that are large like us and they have as many many pieces as we do. That's the first point. So I'm not sure that's actually a true statement, but I'll take your uh I'll take your uh points at at face value.

56:41 And I would just say each one of the pieces we've set up. has been f highly thought through and contributes a lot to the business. These are not. random things we've done. They're very specific, and they contribute enormous value.

56:56 in the long term to the company. And Because of that Um, we have to explain them more to maybe sometimes have to explain them more to investors. But

57:08 For our Uh friends. They understand exactly why those pieces are there and what they do for us and um And what each accomplishes.

57:20 In the short term I could we could wave a wand and get rid of all those Uh as you Denote complicated parts. We can wave one, get rid of them all.

57:32 In the In the long term, it would be bad for shareholders. Less less returns would be earned. We would be More At

57:40 Um financial risk. we would have we we have the maximum amount of flexibility within our structure to be able to go through deal with Opportunities Risks.

57:53 And everything is out there. So I I just I I uh I look, we can always do better on explaining the pieces and and we try all the time and it's incredibly m our Reputation's incredibly important to us.

58:09 Um so when people criticize us about our structure or different things that are there. Um We try to double down and make sure we explain it all to people. Um, but what I I would just say that each of those pieces is really important. And uh and contribute a lot to the business. Hypothetically if you were to all put it under one umbrella.

58:31 How would that change the opportunity set available to you? Which would just mean dilution. to some shareholder and And

58:40 And For example, we spun off our asset management business uh two years ago. There's a whole group of US investors Largely. that buy asset management businesses that only wanna be invested in asset management.

58:55 They don't wanna own assets that we own. They don't wanna be invest in insurance. They don't wanna do all the other things we do. Um they don't want to change like our our parent company Brookfield Corporation. It has changed. In thirty five years in many different ways and many different times for the benefit. But you need to

59:17 You need to Trust us. When we're changing. Brookfield Asset Management. is a pure play as a management business that's asset light.

59:29 that will n probably never be anything different. You can trust us for that, and that's what it is. So there's just they're just different audiences. And um And it just allows us to have a security which is tailored to that audience and if we want to offer it to somebody in the public markets or to an or to another alternative manager, we want to

59:50 merge in or something. It gives us the opportunity to Do that and not have to deal with all the other issues that we have. Well what about your insurance business? Or what about your investments? Or what what are you gonna do next? And uh

1:00:06 And it just allows us to do that. So I don't it just would take away a lot of the great benefits we have in the organization. If you put your investor Bruce hat on, which of the businesses do you think is the best positioned for the next 15 years. And I'm not asking. I just mean which business do you think is the best competitively positioned?

1:00:28 I just think they're all different. They're they're all totally different. E everything we invest into has enormous Opportunity. going forward as long as we execute properly. Um

1:00:41 But they're each one of them's different. Uh I I get excited. I could I could get excited about having all of my net worth in every single one of them. And uh and they're all pretty exciting going forward. Maybe spend a few minutes on talent and people. Brookfield is known to take really big bets with

1:01:02 What From the outside looking in would be young people. What do you see in people that gives you the confidence to take bets in them? How do you build a culture where I Meritocracy rises and people can take big bats. So we've always had the view that um

1:01:18 extreme meritocracy. Uh, this is a partnership. It's partnership of individuals. Uh when When we leave the partnership our shares

1:01:30 That uh if you're an owner or controller of the partnership, they go away. They go on to somebody else. So um nobody's family will ever Uh

1:01:40 will ever be part of this partnership. It's a meritocracy. Second, we've always had the view that um A cross between Uh uh wise

1:01:52 Older people. And smart, aggressive, young People. Both

1:02:00 Um give you the gravitas to deal with situations which you need a little history. But also allow you to be Um Allow you to know more about what's going on today. I'm positive or

1:02:15 thirty year olds today in the business know more about technology than I do. Because they've grown up with it differently. Um it allows us to Be faster. Better

1:02:27 Quicker. To every new trend in the world. And what's going on out there. And it also, I'd say, creates a culture. where people wanna be here and get ahead.

1:02:40 'Cause they know they can. And um and so I w look we Uh Brought to the partners and to our senior people, uh, three years ago we brought

1:02:53 Connor Teschy forward as the next person that will be the CEO of the asset management business. Um That was Internally.

1:03:04 uh vetted. It was then externally vetted, and today we're in the process of Him. uh continuing to meet clients and investors and all those kind of things and I think he's thirty seven years old today. Um he's incredibly passionate, talented.

1:03:22 And uh and he'll bring through a whole new group of people. within the company and Re energizing businesses is what makes them better and different. Walk me through some of those meetings where you're making a big investment decision. What goes on behind the scenes? How do you quantify risk? Where do you spend your time on deals?

1:03:43 our investment process is we only invest in things so we Deal with and know. Um, we have people on the ground and our knowledge of the business and um And we're

1:03:56 Our investment committees are normally only focused on downside protection. Upside will always take care of itself. And whether you shoot for sixteen percent, twenty two, twenty nine. Eighteen.

1:04:11 None of those matter. They're all great. What's really important is what are the risks. How what can go wrong? How bad could it get?

1:04:23 And um And how do we deal with it if that happens? And so we spend virtually all of our time on townside protection. at our investment communities and that's all that's important to us.

1:04:34 When you're wrong, where are you typically wrong? And you haven't been wrong a lot. No, no, look, we make mistakes. We we try to make small mistakes. I'd say that's it. When we're wrong. Where are we wrong? We're wrong.

1:04:47 In increment in small ways. Um which aren't Have you you don't know about them very much. Because in the last thirty five years. We've been right generally on the large things and nothing has

1:05:05 Been uh irreparably harm uh harmful. And um and that's because the things we do are small incremental and when we make mistakes we we We make them.

1:05:20 Along the way. And we encourage people to Keep. learning and and growing. Because if you don't make some mistakes you never advance.

1:05:30 But do not make big mistakes. And that's I'd say that's the biggest thing we try. um to impress across the organization. You mentioned the investment committee. I just wonder behind the scenes are investment decisions signed off by by one person, or is it committee that signs off? And if it's a committee, how do you hold people accountable or responsible for those?

1:05:51 So our uh Usually what happens is some a transaction came into the company some way. Or we m had an idea and we don't talk to somebody and a transaction came about. Uh it's then approved by

1:06:05 Today because we have these vast businesses. It's approved in the business, but then we have one committee that it's almost like an allocation committee up top because we want to know how many Across the organization, we want to know. How many transactions are happening? At any one point in time. So we're not compromising like you said, how could you make a mistake?

1:06:25 Yeah. Everybody made a massive transaction. At the same point in time. What we're probably betting on is a cycle. Mm.

1:06:33 And you may not like want that. And if you do, you better knowingly do it. And um So Uh In addition to all the deals being approved down below where accountability comes from.

1:06:47 Uh we have an oversight committee that approves Everything that goes on in the organization. Which includes Six or eight of us. And uh

1:06:57 And that approves everything really just to be a final. governor over the entire organization. Are there patterns to cyclist that you notice in advance of them happening where you're like, We're at the first inning or we're at the late stages? What are the signs that you look for? I I would just say that uh

1:07:19 cycles are never the same. But they sort of rhyme. And they look Similar. So um

1:07:30 The one thing of having wise Older guys around? I'll consider myself that today. Uh Uh I used to be a young

1:07:40 Unwise. individual uh I'll try to consider my s I know I'm old, just not sure I'm wise. But uh I um

1:07:51 Some of the reason for having the the wiser individually around is is Having the Um elongated knowledge of what goes on in cycles and what goes on in periods and and we've seen this before is helpful.

1:08:07 Sometimes it's a hindrance. Sometimes it's very helpful for context. And uh And therefore that's that that's what makes great organizations, I think in our view is that you have um

1:08:22 The combination of the tenacity and passion to make investments and be successful. Tempered by Um

1:08:34 The uh knowledge and skills of past. And what's gone wrong. to be able to bring together risk management and drive.

1:08:47 to succeed. Oh I'm curious like how you would teach me to that knowledge of cycles. Like how would you pass that on to somebody in your organization or or me if you were to sort of Here are the things I look for or don't look for, or you know, I I would say uh In general we don't do training.

1:09:07 Yeah. But Every day, every single person in this organization is learning. And it's a it's a learn by osmosis process. We have open plan uh in the place, including myself, never had an office.

1:09:24 And uh And People talk to one another, and it's very Interactive. And therefore

1:09:33 Well I started off by saying we don't train anybody. Uh we train them every single day. And uh it's just different than sending people to school. Do you do like postmortems after an investment? And what's the key, especially the bad ones. W what goes into those? Like walk me through that. Take me behind the scenes and

1:09:50 We try to look at look the the uh successful ones you can usually identify and know what happened. The unsuccessful ones Are harder to identify what happened. Um but often there are

1:10:08 there are reasons why and it either comes down to execution Uh you didn't you didn't execute properly. Um you had um You mistimed the market.

1:10:20 Or you just made a bad Bad, flawed. investment decision. And those are the worst. You missed time the market. Yeah.

1:10:29 You know, it's okay. Um But uh uh making flawed investment decisions is really bad. Is that where you you've got the business strength wrong, the competitive dynamics wrong? You don't understand

1:10:44 I I just sometimes it's we're sometimes we're pushing Oh. into areas which are adjunct to what we do and we probably shouldn't have, we really didn't know what we were doing. And um Not often does it happen, but once in a while.

1:10:59 How? How much of your investment decision you you focus on the downside, but how much of it is like we're modeling it the next five years and then we're tracking to that model. Or The the only thing I tell you about a model that's produced in an investment committee is it will never be exactly Mm-hmm. What happens?

1:11:18 Um But Uh I'd say if you get the We're trying to get the trends right.

1:11:25 is is really what it is. Is in investing it's Can you get the trend right? And and I would say most of our investing is Uh, we're trying to get the price right for value and therefore often we're buying at a discount of what we think is the value of something. And um

1:11:44 And therefore that's an an important uh thing to note. How do you think about the geopolitical risk? We we invest in backbone infrastructure. Largely.

1:11:58 And even our private equity businesses are backbone infrastructure type businesses. Therefore what's important for us is to Go to good countries with good people. You can operate with the standard we operate with, and that those countries respect rule of law and will over time be good places to invest.

1:12:19 We don't really sell over borders. So in the United States Where we are. Um We own data centers and telecom towers and real estate and industrial facilities and all of the things that we own in the US and we make batteries and we

1:12:37 Except, all all of those are consumed by individuals or companies in the United States. They're not shipped. We make power. It's used within state.

1:12:47 Um so Politics don't really matter to us. You know, they do on the margin. But on balance as long as you Invest in a good country. Um, you're gonna be fine.

1:13:01 And by good, I'm assuming you mean stable, rule of law. How do you think you did? Good means um For us it has to be large enough to be able to invest. We like we can't have small countries just not because they're not good they're not good place to invest, it's just not meaningful to us. When you have a trillion dollar things

1:13:18 The benefit Or the um Uh the Or the a drawback is that Uh

1:13:28 Is that you can't go to a little country. Like we just uh we can't invest the th uh a hundred million dollars. It's not relevant to us. Right. Um So we need large places. We'd like them to have

1:13:41 Uh we need to operate with the standards that we operate globally with Um We need to be we we'd like to have large GDP. We'd like to have it growing. Uh and we'd like to have a currency that's relatively

1:13:56 I didn't have to doesn't have to grow better than everyone else, just has to stay consistent. If it's highly volatile, not good. If it goes down over the long periods of time, bad. Um so we'd we'd rather pick countries with those

1:14:10 Um Those factors. And but it all comes down to price. Like some some have all that and then you you You invest. uh when you

1:14:22 Can but but for us we have to have people on the ground. So we pick those countries very methodically. We put people on the ground. We invest from time to time, new investments. When we find the opportunities. But we don't randomly go to countries.

1:14:37 Like this is not a random business. This is hard work. Therefore we have to be In country. Be able to action. An opportunity when it comes.

1:14:46 And therefore if we're not in a country and somebody calls us with an opportunity We just say sorry, we're not set up to do that. Can't no can do. It seems like part of your secret sauce is not only doing that in advance, but also You seem to prove the model before you take outside investors into it.

1:15:03 You know, I like I would say we have a large amount of capital ourself. We've always invested ourselves. We wanna make mistakes with our own money first. Not with others. Our reputation with our clients is The only thing we have. And uh and that's really important to us.

1:15:22 And and we try to incrementally grow to prices. For example, we s we have a massive platform in the United States, so we start an insurance in the United States. Now we're going to the UK. to do the same thing we did in the United States. And we just got licensed.

1:15:41 To do that. But it um We now have all the experience we have from the United States. We probably couldn't have started there. Because we just didn't have the same presence there as we had here.

1:15:54 And we always end these interviews with the same question, which is what is success for you? Brookfield, uh Is One of the Great investment.

1:16:08 uh management groups in the world today and twenty years from today Success. is that it is um bigger, broader Um More relevant to clients.

1:16:21 uh and continues to do exactly what it does today for everybody and earn reason it earn reasonable returns with With downside risk protected. And if we can do that, we'll have Felt success. uh of all of this.

1:16:39 Yeah. Thanks for listening and learning with us. The Furnham Street blog is where you can learn more about my new book, Clear Thinking. turning ordinary moments into extraordinary results. It's a transformative guide that hands you the tools to master your fate. Sharpen your decision making.

1:16:59 and set yourself up for unparalleled success. Lear more at fs dot blog slash clear. Until next time.

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