Transcript

Public radio vs. DOGE: NPR CEO Katherine Maher previews her testimony

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1:20 Join us at masters of scale dot com slash apply twenty six. That's mastersofscom slash apply. Twenty six. Hey everyone, we have a special episode today with Catherine Marr, CEO of NPR. Catherine has been called to Capitol Hill tomorrow, Wednesday, March 26th, to answer questions before a DOE subcommittee in Congress, along with the CEO of PBS.

1:51 You'll hear an exclusive preview of how Catherine plans to face the congressional drilling and how she hopes to reposition NPR's liberal brand identity, appealing instead to all Americans. And hopefully winning not only their trust, but their continuing tax dollars. Whether you're a regular NPR listener or not, we're at an inflection point in American society as questions about impartiality and information and truth come fast and furious. I'm Bob Safian, and this Із рапід респанс.

2:24 I'm Bob Safe and I'm here with Katherine Maher, CEO of NPR. Catherine, great to see you. It's great to see you again. When you joined NPR last year

2:37 The organization faced Plenty of business challenges, audience, engagement, business model. Since then the environment It just Got a whole lot more fraught. There was a high profile criticism about newsroom bias last spring from an editor on the staff. That sounds almost quaint right now, though. You've been called to testify on Capitol Hill tomorrow to speak before

3:00 The Doge subcommittee in a hearing titled Anti American airwaves Alongside the head of PBS, I'm sure you Love that. label. What what do you expect from that?

3:12 What should we all expect? How do you prepare for that? Honestly, I view it as an opportunity. I view it as an opportunity to go and talk about all the great work that NPR does, but also the great work that our stations do. I think that that's something that often gets lost in the conversation about public radio is the overall percentage of Uh funds that go to directly to local stations, the importance of the local station network, the fact that when people are listening to public radio, they are not listening to us broadcasting from DC. They're listening to their local station, which is probably, you know, st chances are attached to a local university or it's a community nonprofit and it's making the choices about what folks hear on the air. It's probably has some sort of call in public affairs show where you can talk about what's going on that matters to you as a resident of your town, your city, et cetera. So

4:02 Just just really getting back to that. That feels like such an important part of what I'm there to do. And you know, how do you prepare? I mean you prepare by making sure you know what you're there to say and you prepare by making sure you know what it is that you know you want to be able to communicate about the value of the work. And you prepare by a lot of practice. It's like trying to go to Carnegie Hall. It's a lot of practice. Over the last year I've reached out to you a few times to see if you'd come on the show and you'd you've been hesitant. You've sort of tried to keep a low profile in some ways in all this noise. You you don't have that choice tomorrow. Well, I think trying to keep a low profile has really been about trying to keep my head down and get some work done. Uh you know, I as you rightly alluded to, I came into NPR not because I wanted to make a mark from a political standpoint at all. Like the goal for me coming to NPR was to really take this extraordinary organization and to think about what does our future actually look like? What does it mean to be a broadcaster in an era of digital? What does it mean to think about the next generation of audience? How do we think about what our programming mix looks like? How do we think about what

5:11 how to really strengthen our stations in terms of their service to their communities. And that was that was where my head has been for the past year. So But you're right, tomorrow's an opportunity for me to go out there and talk about all the work that we've been doing and all the work that I we want to do for the future. I mean this this year.

5:31 anti-Americ airwaves. Uh today people view NPR, a lot of people view NPR as liberal. regardless of what your content might be. Do you want to Change that brand identity? Like is that Part of what you're gonna talk to them in Congress about it or are you proud of it?

5:50 Well, I think it's a misunderstanding to be Yeah, if I'm being honest. For starters, if you look at the data around who comes to NPR's websites or uses our app or downloads our podcast, it is very representative of the political spectrum of the American public. In fact, it's almost a one-to-one. And so we know where we have data, which is on our digital platforms, it's harder to get that data for broadcast. It is

6:16 Our audiences are coming from all over. Like the the folks who come to the website are perfectly proportional to the states. of the nation. That means that in terms of population size, yes, California is the largest, so we get the most traffic from there, but then it's Texas, right? In terms of who's coming to NPR sites. And then when you look at the sort of cross-referencing of how people identify from a political affiliation standpoint, again, super representative of the nation, conservative, independent, you know, liberal, et cetera. So I think there's a bit of a misconception as to who we serve. I absolutely think it's an opportunity for us to reintroduce ourselves to the American public and you know whether that is in terms of our political reporting or whether it is our science and health reporting, which is a powerhouse desk. And then Veterans and Education beats those are two places where NPR is known for the work that we do. And we cover issues that really matter to Americans. In fact we're the only non paywalled media organization with a robust veterans beat.

7:12 I was talking to a friend about uh doing this interview. He was telling me a story about talking to a colleague who's uh MAGA republican and he mentioned in episode he said, Oh I'll send you this episode of This American Life and they were like, Oh, it's on NPR? Oh, you know, no, I I it It it almost sounds like there are people who are listening to NPR stations that maybe don't realize they're in PR stations or don't connect it to this sort of conversation about I I don't like being anti American. I w I really want to rebuff this idea that this

7:44 in any way that public radio is anti American. For starters, we are a uniquely American model. We are a public private partnership. For every single federal dollar we get local stations raise an additional seven. They rely on their communities, they rely on local businesses. You know, NPR is twenty five percent of what you hear on public radio airwaves on average. In fact seventy 55% of station's programming is are either other shows that they purchase or local shows that they produce. Um and this American Life's a great example. We love this American Life. Our glass used to work at NPR, but it's not an NPR. program. Radio program. It's part of the sort of diverse texture of what is actually available. So

8:26 You know, I think about the fact that we have Just at NPR alone, 246 member stations, there's thirteen hundred public radio stations across the country. You know, they represent their local communities in ways that are hyper unique, whether we're talking about like high school basketball, the price of sorghum wheat. This these are the things that I think it's easy to sort of forget about if you're just listening to the radio in perhaps a New York or a D C is that All of this is very much in tune with the whatever's going on in American lives at any particular point in time in this enormous nation of ours. N PR

9:00 isn't a federal agency. As as you say, you get money from lots of different places, but the the subtext of this doue hearing is the the prospect of losing federal funding or some important part of it. What would the practical impact of losing that funding be? I mean I I can imagine you've been preparing for this possibility even well before this hearing came up. I mean, I think we have to be prepared for all scenarios all the time. The thing that I would want everyone to know about federal funding is the impact that loss of federal funding would have on local stations. Again, of the hundred and twenty one point five million, that's it, hundred and twenty one point five million that goes to public radio on an annual basis. It's a lot of money. I want to acknowledge that. And it's also

9:45 Not a ton of money relative to the total size of the American public budget, right? The federal budget. A hundred million of that goes direct to local stations. And disproportionately the the percentage of those funds goes to support stations that have that serve rural communities, that serve less affluent communities, that serve communities with really large areas of service where the infrastructure investment in making sure that broadcast airwaves reach the country is significant. So I think about my my colleagues in eastern Kentucky who have to put, you know, repeaters and hollers in order for eastern Kentuckyans to be able to hear those radio broadcasts. So The loss of federal funding would directly impact the ability for stations to provide coverage, which is currently 99.7% of the nation has access to airwaves. It would directly affect our ability to be part of the emergency broadcast system.

10:41 And it would directly affect the ability of local stations to be able to continue to support commission and purchase programming. about their communities. That's where the harm would be. The harm would be for the local stations and that's what we're trying to avoid because it's very easy again in D C to forget that you know We've lost a third of newspapers across the country in the last twenty years. One fifth of Americans live in a news desert. Public radio. public broadcasting your local newsroom is

11:09 often the only news that folks have that actually cares about their community and covers the issues that that listeners care about. One of the things that we really focus on is not trying to tell the news from DC. It's trying to tell the news from America to Americans. And without federal funding, we run the risk that Only large cities are able to afford newsrooms. What we want to make sure is that large cities, small towns, rural communities have newsrooms so that when something happens in the country that all Americans need to know about. You're not having someone parachute in from the coast to tell that story. You're able to ha uh ensure that the local reporter in the local newsroom can go out Report that story and communicate that back.

11:55 You can't do that without a fifty state network and you can't have a fifty state network without federal funding. Beyond the the federal funding issue. You're also facing some scrutiny from the FCC about how N PR acknowledges sponsors on the air. What's that about? Could that hamper your ability to

12:15 generate revenue from another channel? on NPR, we receive donations from both private individuals, uh foundations and um corporations that sponsor or underwrite our programming and then we give acknowledgements or credits on the air. These are not advertisements. Uh we comply with the FCC guidelines and we have a team of you know attorneys who review all of the language that goes out in order to make sure it is in compliance with FCC guidelines. We feel Really confident about that process. We've been doing it for a very long time. We plan to comply fully with whatever inquiry the FCC wants to engage with. I I think as a as a public broadcaster

12:58 Scrutiny is always appropriate. You know, it is a it is appropriate for us to be accountable to the public. It is appropriate for us to be accountable to our listeners. We want people to be able to say, like, hey, you know, we want we want our public radio, our public media to live up to the highest of all standards. And so My view is that when we hear concerns or criticism or there's somebody who, you know, gives us feedback that we need to take that on. We need to evaluate it and we need to ascertain what are we gonna do with that with that feedback. We want to make sure that when whether it's a listener who feels as though you know, there's a perspective that's been missed, or whether it's uh, you know, someone with a question about how we engage with our sponsorship practices, we're answering those questions and we're open to that scrutiny. I mean, I guess there's some people who sort of say like You know, do we need public broadcasting in the dead digital age, right? Started in the nineteen sixties when there was sort of a limit on broadcast airwaves, but now everybody has plenty of access to plenty of media like Do we need this anymore?

13:58 Well of course the answer Is yes, and I'll and I'll give you a bunch of reasons why. Uh for starters, NPR is actually the most trusted news brand in America. Um, which you which not everyone knows. Uh in terms of the number of people that we reach. Uh we reach more than ten million people on a weekly basis just on our morning show, which makes us one of the biggest morning shows in media organizations in terms of audience size. Forty three million people listen to NPR in a week or engage with NPR as website or app, you know, or podcasts or broadcasts on a weekly basis. We're we're pretty big. much of the s uh commercial media right now is really attuned to a specific audience. You know, it might be a sort of political slant, uh, it might be a generational sort of demographic that it's trying to get.

14:45 That's not us. We're here for all Americans. We're nonpartisan. We seek to report the news. And so I would almost make the argument that in addition to being available n for all Americans and for free, no paywall. Another really important thing here. No paywall. We're here for connection. of our communities. And we don't take the view that we are trying to s hyper serve a specific segment of society. We're trying to take the view that all Americans should be in conversation about the news that matters and that we're here to serve everyone. You're for all Americans.

15:17 But you had You know, and the editor at NPR say like, No, the news has been biased the way you talk about COVID or you know, the Mueller report or whatever. There is this

15:30 Impression From certain people in America that N PR is not for all Americans. And obviously that's what the hearing's about tomorrow. Yeah, and that's one of the reasons that I'm here is I believe very deeply that that is our objective and our responsibility. I had someone come up to me and they said, you know, I'm a conservative, I grew up in NPR, I love NPR. And I'm just not sure it's a home for me right now. And that

15:57 struck me, you know, that like cut me to the core. I want it to be a home for everyone. I want people to feel as though it's their, you know home for curiosity. It's their home for understanding the world. It's certainly that's the role it played in my life as a young person. It's what I hear over and over again from listeners is that it it broadened their horizons. It was an opportunity to learn about a thing that they wouldn't have been you know, uh taught in school, whether it's like science or you know, exploring the cosmos or just understanding what's happening in sort of global affairs or just down the street or connecting with the humanity and empathy. That's what we are here to do. And so We've done a couple of things since I've come in around really rethinking how do we serve our audiences and who are our audiences, which is designed to get at some of these concerns that we're hearing. So for starters, um, we have really reoriented the organization around Audience needs.

16:52 Broadcast radio is not the greatest way to understand audience needs because we just don't have that much information about how people are listening. But as we have more digital data around people who are coming to our websites or listening to our podcasts, or even just streaming from our app, those sort of linear radio experience. It starts to be able to help us understand how to better serve audiences. We've also gone out and done For the first time ever, and I say this like With s this surprised me when I came in. I had to ask three times to be like Are you really sure? In the past, the only audience research that we did was with people with college degrees, but only thirty five percent of Americans have a college degree, which meant that we were not listening to the needs of all Americans, which just is like, how do you

17:37 Run a media organization and say 65% of my potential audience, I'm not gonna ask them what they want. Um, so we're doing that, which I think makes a really big difference. The thing that we've identified in terms of our audiences is that curiosity is the most common characteristic. And the great news is that curiosity is not a partisan trait. Curiosity exists in every demographic every age group, every political persuasion. And so that's a great place for us to hone in on is curiosity. What's going on in the world? How do we explain it? How do we give people the information to go a little bit deeper? Give them that context that helps them, you know, situate themselves. Um And I think it's time for us to reintroduce ourselves as if this is what we're here to do. And yes, we're here to do it for everyone.

18:23 I admire Catherine's optimism that curiosity drives a common American perspective. We just have to hope that traits like distrust or apathy or in some cases hate don't beat out curiosity. We'll talk about some of that, as well as NPR's DDI strategy, Catherine's own politically charged. Tweets and more after the break. Stay with us. Humans will never be more intelligent than AI. Those are great at AI and those that went out of business because they weren't. How do we build a future? That is human centered.

19:05 I'm Rana El Calyubi. And on my podcast Pioneers of AI, we answer that question and so many more. As an AI scientist, entrepreneur, and investor, I know what it takes to build AI that works for everyone. Every week, I sit down with the pioneers shaping our future. And we take you behind the scenes of the AI that's transforming our lives. Find pioneers of AI wherever you tune in.

19:34 Hey listeners, Bob here. If you listen to Rapid Response on Masters of Scale, you may be missing half the show because every Friday we release a second Rapid Response exclusively in the Rapid Response feed. The guests and topics are just as compelling and timely. From Ford CEO to NASA's administrator to the lessons from The Devil Wears Prada. It takes about 10 seconds to find, just search Rapid Response wherever you listen to podcasts and hit follow to make sure you never miss an episode. I hope to see you there. Before the break, Catherine Marr, CEO of NPR, shared how she's preparing to go in front of a Doge subcommittee in Congress tomorrow. Now we dig into lightning rod issues that have buffeted NPR, including its DEI strategy and Catherine's own politically charged social posts. Plus how she looks at Jeff Bezos' influence on the Washington Post coverage and more. Let's dive back in.

20:42 You're Predecessor John Lansing said that Diversifying NPR staff was critical to help you know, attract younger, more diverse listeners, that this was kind of the company's North Star was his phrase. When your DEI officer retires in May, you've said you won't be replacing the position. W was that

21:01 North Star mission Uh misplaced? I wouldn't say misplaced. I think that it was really important. piece of work for us to do. And we look at our staff today, and we do have a very diverse staff, both in terms of you know right racial and ethnic diversity, but also in terms of generational diversity. That was really important work for us as an organization that was fifty years into our existence. Um

21:28 you have to have the ability to have that refresh, to have new voices come in, people from different backgrounds, people who perhaps had non non-traditional pr approach to their journalistic career. it's imperative that we continue to do that work, not just in the lens of, say, racial and ethnic diversity or gender diversity, but also in terms of socioeconomic diversity, for example. I think that that is the sort of thing that often gets lost in these conversations. Political diversity is a is another important piece of it. I would I think it's great when we have people who can sit around a room in an editorial meeting and challenge one another to see different aspects of a story. Groupthink doesn't help anyone, um, and it certainly doesn't lead to great reporting. That to me is a important piece of the work. So it yes, I think that we did good work there. And now the question is, how do we translate in into serving all audiences in a way that feels reflective of the American public as a whole.

22:23 So not replacing that DEI position. It's not I mean one of the things I worry about and there's conversations about is sort of the chilling effects of some of pullbacks or decisions, you know. I wonder how much you th have to sort of balance like What is practical for you to keep moving forward today versus whether you're being impacted by some of these Yeah, as you talk about.

22:48 one of your listeners feeling like, Oh, it's not safe for me to listen to NPR. Well, I didn't say safe. I said that they didn't feel like they had a home. We want people to feel like they belong in public radio. And now the truth is. In the past, lots of Americans, perhaps people of color, didn't necessarily feel like they belonged in public radio. So I think that we have to make sure that as we expand that tent, we're expanding that tent in a way that we're keeping everyone in it. I was talking to somebody who said, It's not that I want to hear my view all the time. I just want to make sure I hear my view. Some of the time. And I'm like, yeah, that that's a reasonable thing. So we need to make sure that we're bringing on newsmakers. We need to make sure that we're interviewing people from across the political spectrum. This administration that we're covering today, it's transformative. Americans elected a transformative administration. And it's our job to cover that transformation and to do so from a place of, you know

23:39 uh awareness and respect for the fact that that's the will of the American people. And now we get to see where that transformation takes us. We'll cover the good, we'll cover, you know, the unintended consequences, we'll cover the impact on day to day. That's our job. But You know, I do wanna come back. I think you asked this question about um, you know, where do we go? I want to be very thoughtful about this. We care very deeply about ensuring that our staff represents the nation to make sure that people feel welcome and that they can do their best work here. Um I think that it is important as an employer of people that we continue to serve our people well. Uh and as we think about what does diversity look like in all of its forms, the work that we're doing is about how do we integrate that into our act our planning and our strategy and our goals so that our audience reflects the full range of the way that we think about diversity as in the country as a whole. And so we're just as as we make this transition um with our chief diversity officer retiring

24:35 We're moving some of his colleagues to sit in our chief operating officers function so that all of their work is also incorporated in how we think about, well, how do we know that we're successful when we say we want to reach all Americans? What does that look like? What do we need to know? How do we need to plan and resource for that? Some of your old social media posts from twenty eighteen have gotten attention supporting Black Lives Matter. Calling Trump Racist. Now you run the business side of NPR, not its Content.

25:05 But it It seems increasingly risky to have business leaders Share opinions. In any format. Unless your name is Elon Musk, in which case you can say what whatever you want. What messages do some of your personal

25:20 Opinions of the past. How does that impact the way you're trying to sort of re imagine or I guess remind people about what NPR stands for now and into the future. Well I mean those are Tweets that I sent more than half a decade ago. It was a different time. I had a very different role.

25:38 I was a private citizen at the time. I had no No sort of public fun facing role. Now N VR has a very strong firewall between my role on the business side, as you rightly note, and editor our editorial function. So I don't direct our reporting, I don't shape our reporting. I'm not involved in the way that we think about reporting in any way. So My personal views do not enter into my work. Looking back at sort of

26:04 something that I may have said nearly half a more than half a decade ago feels as though it is trying to muddy the waters around the work that we're here to do. Would I send those again? I would not. You know, I have a different role now. I would never say something like that. I set aside all of my political views to take on this role and that in and of itself, I think is you know, how I show up every single day is is with the sort of open mindedness to what does it really mean to be able to be present. For the whole nation in this moment. What do you think about how Jeff Bezos has impacted content policy at the Washington Post? Like, should those who fund a media organization

26:42 have input into the content that's produced. Well, I mean the post is the post and so obviously it's a private company and they have the opportunity to do what they want there. I think the big thing about public media and public radio and what we do at NPR is for starters, we don't have opinion programming. So I think one of the things that was a part of the conversation about the post was the change in terms of its op ed pages to a focus on free markets and personal liberties. We don't Do Op eds and N PR.

27:14 We are not an opinion journalism organization. We are a news organization that reports the news and does so from a nonpartisan perspective, and our opinions don't come into it. Now That being said. I never would interfere. with any of our programming. I would never interfere with the story. I believe that it is imperative that the ex chief executive of a media organization stays out of the newsroom entirely. I mean I can walk through the newsroom of course and say hi to folks. But the the idea that that would

27:47 be something that I would do is just anathema to how we operate as an organization. And frankly, the newsroom would have no patience for me if I did even try to have an opinion on that. So I think that's a critical thing. I think it's a critical distinction. I know it's a hard distinction right now because so many media organizations do feel as though they reflect their ownership. But I don't own NPR. You know, N VR is owned by the American public. We are a nonprofit media organization that serves the public interest, and this is a very hard and bright line in terms of how we operate. A lot of Americans today say they don't trust the media, or certainly don't trust parts of the media, right? Like What can you do about that?

28:27 First of all. I think that Americans are really smart and I think that it is important for us to start from a position of respect for our audience. Uh I don't believe that we have the right to ask that they just trust us blindly. I think that it is our responsibility to wake up every morning and seek to be worthy of their trust. So my my word on this is trustworthy, not trusted. I think we have to earn it.

28:54 Every single day. I think that when we make a mistake, we have to acknowledge it. I think that we have to be reflexive in taking in criticism and assessing how we continue to adapt and engage with that criticism. You know, the institutions that people trust most right now are institutions that are agile and responsive and can engage with that kind of criticism, or or they're not institutions at all. They're individuals, right? I mean just the role of sort of individual voices in reporting the news is is a huge piece of the story right now in terms of the number of Americans get who get their news from influencers on social media. The key piece here is that there's a personal relationship, whether it's with the institution, the company, or the individual. And there's honesty in the transaction of information or, you know, the way in which the you're talking to your audience. I think that that's where you build trust in this moment. I expect that tomorrow you're gonna get a little versions of some of these questions, although probably posed in slightly more confrontational language.

30:02 How do you prepare For that. Uh you know. I think that Congress has a right.

30:10 To ask questions and it's my obligation to respond. We receive federal funds, we're steward of p taxpayer dollars. It's my role to walk in and and answer those questions. My hope is that. it is an opportunity to talk about what some of the things I've just talked about with you in terms of our goals, our values, the bright line between editorial and business, um, the impartiality or nonpartisan nature of what we do, the importance of local journalism. Uh, but ultimately, you know, I will answer the questions that Congress asks and I will be there to sort of be respectful of their oversight function. How's the

30:50 Move it. And morale. On your team these days? Um Like they're here to go to work. I like I I just walked through the newsroom to get here to the studio and every everyone's heads down. They're they're working, they're reporting, they're producing, they're you know getting ready to file their sh their story for all things considered, or they're getting ready for whatever band is coming in for Tiny Desk next. Um

31:15 I I think that the overall environment right now is that people really want to Do the work. There's a lot of news in the world today, whether we're thinking about the, you know, as I said, transformative administration, whether we're thinking about um questions of space exploration. We just had four astronauts come back. Uh the we have a great science desk who loves to cover that sort of stuff. So I think people feel as though of course this is a different moment in time and it is really important that we show up and are responsive to people's questions about uh the value of our work. I I come back to the fact that when we talk about efficiency, public radio is remarkably efficient the cost per public media on a you know, per American is a dollar sixty. Uh it's basically, you know, when you go to check out at CBS and you're asked to round up um to a good cause, that's like that's us. That's what we cost. Public radio costs less than a dollar sixty, but public media as a whole is a dollar sixty per American per year. Um

32:15 You know, as I said, uh for every dollar of federal funding, seven dollars of private funding. So I think we've got a good story to tell. And seventy five percent of Americans want to see public media maintain or increase its current funding levels. So again, that's I think that's the story we're here to tell. Well, Catherine, this was great. Thank you. Things up. Catherine seems well prepared for the Doge hearing, emphasizing the breadth of the NPR's audience and a mission to impartially serve all Americans.

32:48 But I expect a session titled Anti-American Airwaves will be less forgiving about her old tweets than she'd like. And more skeptical about her assurances that she and NPR are non-political and non-partisan. Which would be a shame from a fiscal perspective, a public-private venture that brings in seven dollars for every one dollar in government support is a pretty good model. I'm not a fan of media that's 100% government supported, that's a bit like a propaganda machine to me. But I do see a public interest in local and community coverage that's predominantly backed by donors and members. Plus for the business community, any further splintering of media and information might escalate US divisions, which creates More commercial headwind than tailwind.

33:33 Is all that PBS and NPR and other public media do worth a dollar sixty a year in taxes? It is to me. But I'm not part of the Doge committee. I'm Bob Sapphian. Thanks.

33:55 Rapid response is a wait what original. I'm Bob Safian. Our executive producer is Eve Tro. Our producer is Alex Morris. Associate producer is Mashimaku Tonina. Mixing and Mastering by Aaron Bastonelli. Our theme music is by Ryan Holliday. Our head of podcast is Lytal Malad.

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