Transcript

Advice Line with Eric Ryan of Method returns

0:07 Hello and welcome to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show. who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Leave us a one minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. All right, let's get to it. Joining me today is Eric Ryan. He's a serial entrepreneur and the co-founder of Method. Ollie, Welly, Tandy, just a whole bunch of incredible brands and that's not all of them. Uh and this is actually the second time Eric has joined me on the how I built this advice line to take your calls. Eric, thank you so much for coming back. So happy to be back, guy. Thank you for having me. And of course, if any of you listening haven't heard the original story about how Eric and Adam Lowry built the cleaning products brand method.

1:03 You gotta check it out. It's an awesome story. We will put a link to it in the show notes. Um Eric When you were b uh on an advice line back last summer, we got an update on some of the projects that you had kinda wound down. Give us a sense of what's going on right now. What are you up to? You are s you are so busy, you've got all these different Things happening at the same time, give us an update. Yeah, so I've moved much more into the uh venture investing space. And uh I joined Greycroft. We are launching a new hundred fifty million dollar dedicated consumer fund. We just made our first two investments. So I've officially made the move from entrepreneur to investor.

1:38 Wow, and how does that feel? I mean, you were on the other side of the table for so long and uh probably had some opinions about some of the investors that you you talked to. Yeah. What is that what's that like? You know, it's like when you're an entrepreneur, as we're about to talk to several of'em today. You very much feel like a quarterback. And you get sacked over and over. So to be on the sidelines and playing coach feels really good. Where you could say to somebody, get back in the game, you got this. Um so after years of getting sacked, it's it's uh I'm really enjoying starting to play coach.

2:09 Tell me a little bit about I know you're philosophy about about building businesses was was basically identifying opportunities for brands that You know that. that needed a a disruption or cultural shift, right? Like cleaning products or vitamins, uh or you know First aid, right? Which is all these things you did.

2:28 Do you apply that to to what you look for in Yeah. other startups that you you're gonna invest in? Yeah, very much so. And we work really closely with like Target as a retail partner. And so I focus very much on identifying in any given category

2:43 over the next three to five years, like what are gonna be the big macro trends? And then it's just pattern matching. And going out and scouting and finding founders and entrepreneurs then who are kind of building into that. Interesting, yeah. As you know, you're here in the Bay Area and it seems like it's it's here with more intensity right now this idea that investors are really cold on consumer.

3:06 products right now. Consumer brand, CPG, right, because of a variety of reasons. There was a sort of exuberant period where a lot of money went into consumer brands and a lot of them didn't or some of them didn't work out. Uh and it's tough. It's tough market. It's tough to hit a hundred million dollars, right? Which is really where a brand is either, you know, a target for acquisition or Raises more money and then pursues it go public.

3:28 I mean is that is that real, is it true, and and if so, w what's your sense of why? Yeah, you know, I think it's a great time to be getting back into consumer. That's why I love our timing of of building this fund. And what you said is exactly what happened. We we really saw, you know, around twenty twenty, twenty one, Um and even before that a lot of tech money poured in a consumer. And then things that were like literally a recipe would suddenly be classified as food tech. And these insane valuations got applied.

3:57 all sorts of bad behaviors are trying to grow too fast. And I think now we've seen a really great reset, and it's never been easier. to start a company, but it's never been harder to scale one. And I think as an investor really picking the founders and the brands that you think

4:12 fundamentally can be hundred, two hundred million. brands like one of the one of them I've been involved with for the last three years is Goodles, the mac and cheese. And you know, trying to find those Goodles are are not easy. All right. Well, I think that the answer to this question is yes. Um are you ready for our first call. Let's deal it. All right, let's let's bring our first caller. Hello, welcome to the advice line. Please tell us your name where you're calling from and just a little bit about your business. Hi Guy, hi Eric, my name is Christina Peng. I am calling from San Diego today and I am the founder of Haven Beauty. Our mission is to bring joy and beauty to the lives of all through scent, and the way that we are doing that is by build the first fine fragrance and skincare brand formulated without

4:56 The 82 known fragrangens, so that everyone, including those who have had to give up fragrance in the past, can enjoy it again. Alright, welcome to the show, Christina. So Haven is a It's Basically perfume. But that is for people who

5:12 Stopped using it because they were allergic to it. Yes, so we do perfumes as well as fragranced skincare. Um and we also have some home fragrants um and it is designed to be suitable even for people who haven't been able to use it. So we're not interested um yeah, we're not like excluding people who just generally love fragrance, but we're making it possible for those who haven't been able to enjoy it. You know, I think as somebody who g reacts to things with like my skin, I think most maybe maybe not most, but like I feel like at least a third of the human population has some reaction to things like you know, f and so this is really interesting to me because I imagine, right, a lot of people are allergic to things in perfumes and they stop using it.

5:56 Uh w tell me the the idea behind it. W d did you have this issue yourself? Yeah, so you know, my background has been in the beauty industry, but then when I had my eldest child, he was born severely allergic and had also severe eczema. And so what we found was that he was just reacting to everything so even clean natural products we were getting reactions to and it wasn't until we cut all fragrance out of our lives including natural fragrances that his skin began to clear up so naturally we kind of started looking into hey what is it about fragran that is causing so many issues. And what we found is that fragrance ingredients in general, including natural ones, they contain a lot of allergens. And so it's not necessarily toxic, but if you're allergic to it, it's gonna give you a reaction. And you know, because he also had multiple food allergies from that journey we had discovered, hey, if you exclude

7:00 What he's allergic to You know, we're still able to make great food. So um it's kind of a similar concept we were applying to fragrants, skincare, beauty. That seems really hard, right? Because a lot of fragrances are just oils, right? Like um lavender or or something. And I mean, imagine you can't create a line of endless sense, right? There are only certain ones that work.

7:24 Yeah, it's really, really challenging and that's also why it hasn't really been done because you're effectively going from thousands of fragrance ingredients limiting that palette to maybe a couple hundred if you're lucky. Um it's also something you can't necessarily do at home yourself in your own kitchen, you know, you you do need to partner with a specialized fragrance lab because they use these techniques to kind of separate the compounds that are allergenic from those that aren't. And tell me a little bit about the business. What did you say you launched? So I started the business August of twenty twenty four after I left my corporate job. We were already kind of working on candles and things, um, and then we started working on the

8:09 beauty and personal care. After that we launched our first product last summer in July. Okay. And and tell me about your sales last year. How'd you do? We ended the year a little bit over a hundred thousand this year to date. We're on track to maybe get to two fifty, three hundred, um, but we do have a stretch goal for ourselves of four hundred. And where are you selling the products?

8:33 We initially launched on Direct to Consumer. We also have wholesale accounts with several luxury resorts and spas. And just last month we launched nationwide at Anthropology. Okay, awesome. I wanna bring in Eric Ryan, but before I do, tell us your question and we'll see if we can answer it. Yeah, so effectively there have been millions of consumers with eczema, sensitive skin. They've been trained to Think fragrance is bad and just to avoid fragranely. And even the experts that they trust, like dermatologists, have been um trained to think that as well. So when you're introducing a new idea into an established category like that, you know, how do you rebuild that trust and help people feel comfortable giving fragrance a try again, especially if you have a very limited marketing budget. Okay, Eric Ran, I want to bring you in any um f thoughts, uh ideas, questions that you may have for Christina? Yeah, I think you nailed it, which is like you've got a really good idea. Fragrance is a hot category, particularly with Gen Alpha and Gen Z. Mm-hmm. What what percentage

9:39 of consumers have fragrance allergies or So there's about thirty million Americans who have eczema, um, and then more than a hundred million people who self-identify as having sensitive skin. So that's a pretty big number because you can assume that um most of them, a significant portion of them aren't able to use fragrance products. Yeah, okay. It's fascinating because you're entering into a a huge category.

10:09 That's growing. And there's a really big addressable audience today, but you nailed it, which is the challenge of re educating them, going from fragrances bad to me to fragrance is safe for me. That's that's a huge leap. I think You don't

10:24 Really educating consumers is is hard, re educating them is even harder. And so I think you're approaching it the right way. Just looking at the packaging, it's really beautiful and I think you have to create a brand that is appealing to everybody that just happens to be allergen free. And really kind of run two paths which continue to bring in people who don't have sensitivities but really love this idea of

10:52 a fragrance that's just better for me in general, right?'Cause we're all questioning what's in these products. While at the same time Bringing in this group that's written off fragrances. But I think if you focus only on them, it's a much slower build. And just like nailing your emotional hook, the idea of like, you know, fragrance you can finally wear.

11:12 And finding influencers who ha you know previously have never been able to wear a fragrance. Finally I can wear fragrance again. Right. So Eric, what you're saying is is that it's probably a better idea to try and appeal to everybody who's looking for a quote unquote better for you. fragrance or better for you products. I mean one of the things that I think Christina would probably benefit from is having

11:36 some kind of clinical study. If and and if that's not possible, like even dermatologists who could speak to the products like testimonials or Even customer test. I mean your website's great, but I don't see any of that um Uh maybe I'm missing it. Is that something that you're exploring that you m might want to try? Yeah we have done several clinical tests. Actually, uh you can imagine clinical tests are quite expensive. Um so we've done some on sensitive skin first and they have come out with just

12:08 Incredible. results so we do share those with dermatologists that we speak with. Um we were also trying to work with some third parties to kind of like get different seals and everything, but uh again, it's it's quite expensive because there's just so many tests involved. And then I think one of the things we found is A lot of times these tests are also testing on um healthy skin. And so since we're trying to prove something works for skin that's been really sensitized. It's also more expensive to recruit that population. So we are working on it, but it's taking a little bit Longer.

12:46 Yeah, one other idea too, so you're currently working with anthropology and I would imagine you're starting to think about ALTA. Mm-hmm. And really working with a retailer to create this, you know, fragrant safe. At the end of the day, like you're not really building a brand, you're building a completely new category. And I would really brand that category maybe around the idea of allergen free fragrance.

13:05 And make that a destination inside of a retailer. So if you sit down with Alta, it's not about selling Haven, which by the way is a great brand name. I think again the design is beautiful and you can really see your your beauty background coming through. But if you sit down with like an altar Yeah, or a target and work with them on this idea that Haven is not a new brand, it's really a new category. And then brand that category and then position yourself, of course, as the leader of that category.

13:31 That's really great. I love that. I really think the this idea of Allergy free is relevant to everybody because it really means it's a safer fragrance. think you want to really build this fragrance back to like at the end of the day, it is the most beautiful, amazing, like it just wins as a great fragrance that oh happens to be allergen free.

13:54 That core audience who is really a need for them. I think that's a marketing tactic. that is gonna be a harder climb of convincing them that actually now Fragrance is safe for you. Yeah. But I think ultimately turn this into a big brand, you've got to serve both audiences. And look, most innovation comes from like really serving the needs of an extreme user.

14:14 that then you apply that to a general population. And fragrance I mean the the challenge with fragrance is yes, it's a big category, it's growing, but it's insanely crowded. And I think the allergen free really gives you a meaningful point of difference. That's both rational as well as the emotion of selling a beautiful fine fragrance. The brand is called Haven, Christina Penn, good luck, thanks for calling in.

14:36 Thank you. Thanks Christina. Great to meet you. Alright, we're gonna take a quick break, but we'll be right back with another collar and another round of advice. Stay with us, I'm Guy Roz, and you're listening to the advice line right here on how I built this lab. Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz, and my guest today is Serial Entrepreneur Eric Ryan, and we're taking your calls, and uh Eric, you ready for our next one? Let's do it. method and founder of many other products. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business, please. Hey Guy and Eric, it's an honor to be with you guys. I learn a lot from this show, so thanks very much for the opportunity.

15:32 My name is James Chambliss, I'm from Orange County, California. I'm the founder of Pigeon Toes. Which is a fun kid's flip flop brand. Our goal is to build the world's ratdest, comfiest kids flip flops. And our core focus and motto is built for comfort for kids. So tell what what makes your

15:51 They're flip flops, right? And what makes them different or special from other flip flops? Yeah, we've done a couple of core things which One of the number one complaints of kids for the first time getting into flip flops is the scratchy toe cord between their toes. And so when we did some research in starting this out, we found that out And so we've come up with just a really pillowy soft toe cord.

16:13 And then the second thing that kinda helps us stick out. is kids can customize their strap design. And so what happens on our website is they're able to choose their flavor, which is the color. So that's the first choice.

16:26 And then they're able to choose their topping, which is the strap design, which is kinda fun for them. Oh cool. So it's customizable. So y it's not just like ready to wear you can actually design the flip flop. Okay, cool. And and tell me, uh you s said you s launched it last year, have you been in the apparel business or in footwear or is like how did this start? Yeah, so I've actually been in the apparel business. I started my core company out of college and so I've been doing this for a while. I started with screen printing, doing mainly T shirts and delivering'em to the dorms and uh Yeah, it's kind of a funny story, but I used to put the T shirts in my oven in my kitchen because I didn't have a big conveyor belt oven to cure the ink. Right. And so I would deliver'em to the dorms hot out of the oven.

17:06 So I've been doing that for a while. Now I do some help with branding and kind of the the brand imagery, which is what I really love to do. And that's kind of what I did with Pigeon Toes. Alright, you launched last year. Tell me how you're doing so far. Give me a sense of like You know of your sales like quarterly sales.

17:24 Yeah, so f so far today we're about fifteen K. So we really got going to end of Q four last year and started hitting the ground running then. Got it. Okay. Before we um dive in further, tell us your question. Yeah, so In a saturated market where I'm competing with brands with far more resources for content generation.

17:43 Plus the ability to undercut my thirty nine dollar per pair price point. What can I do to build brand awareness and reach more customers? Alright, Eric Ryan, uh pigeon toes, flip flops, customizable And more comfortable. Questions or thoughts.

17:58 For James. Um Disappointed you're not solving the biggest problem with kids' flip flops. Losing them. The number of times I had bought four flip flops. I finally get to the point on a vacation. I always pack two pairs every kid, knowing that we would need a backup.

18:15 Um I love uh I'm just looking at the website too and I I love the branding, the overall approach. Let me ask you a question. At the heart of it, what are you really solving? Uh that's a good question. I mean I'd say the In the industry I saw a gap where all the kids flip flops were mainly adult lines dabbling in kids. And so I really wanted to come in and say, Hey, we are the best done kids flip flop brand dedicated to creating awesome kids' flip flops. It's you know, really trying to win on

18:46 A product iteration is tough because it almost becomes more of an invention than building a brand. I love the name Pigeon, by the way. I don't know if you could just drop toe, is it just like Pigeon. And just gives you a little bit more space to go, but even the idea of pigeon flip flops. And That I think will help you unlock again, like this bigger idea of like what do you own? Do you own summer? Do you own kids first flip flop moment? Do you own kids' shoes? But I think there's a bigger idea here that you're kinda working on.

19:13 First, though, is you got to win in this category. I think the customization really is I think making that the hero is super, super smart. That's what's gonna drive Content. And I would really focus as much as you can on driving customization and then telling those stories. The other part I'm really I I think you could do well here as part of customization is licensing.

19:35 Licensing, especially with retailers, is a great quick shortcut to really build, even though you're borrowing someone else's brand equity, but particularly for kids. Bringing in kids' characters and being able to customize I think would really get that flywheel going and be able to drive a l a lot more content around it. That sounds like a lot of fun.

19:54 Yeah, I I agree. I saw I must be on Instagram or something, a shop in somewhere in South East Asia where you go in And they're flip flops on like a wheel and you spin the wheel and and you can stop it on a I saw that and you could create these customizable

20:12 a flip flops. Now you're doing it here and so when I look at this, I think this is an experiential business. I I think the direct to consumer is great and I hope it really, you know But I think this is something that's not a little bit more. That if you can kind of I mean that's probably not the best analogy, but But maybe it's something kids do on vacation. Like they know they're gonna go to a shop that has this product available and they can sp you know spin a wheel and pick their flip flop and then

20:40 you know, spin another wheel and it's and maybe they could even put their name on it. To me this feels like an experience that you can do with your kids on vacation, right? And it's like Choose your own adventure. So it's not just a practical thing that you're gonna want and wear, but it's a fun experience and so I wonder whether I mean you said you're in Orange County. I mean

21:00 Could you or have you tried to do a live experience like at a f even at at a farmer's market. or at a you know uh a sort of a a fair or something where people can actually make them in real time. Yeah, I've had the thought and it's a really good idea, which kinda pushes me to wanna do it more, um, you know, because I've really been trying through my website, how do I paint that picture, you know, and so I thought Up close, I really might be able to see people's reaction to it and do something like that.

21:27 But we could do it. Yeah, it's a good idea. Yeah, I think that's the gold. I think Everything is built around customization. And guy I love that too, because you could do Hotel activations.

21:38 And that then drives your entire content strategy. And then if you could lay around licensing on top of it to just continue to drive freshness and relevancy. And at the end of the day I think you're you're not selling flip flops, you're really selling summer and celebrating summer. And summer sometimes is on a vacation during the winter. But Mm.

21:56 that I think will give you the foundation that will start then unlock a bigger brand idea here as well. Yeah, I mean can can you imagine Eric being on vacation with your family somewhere and in the hotel lobby There's somebody who

22:10 offers this product and you've got a kid and they're like, I want those flip flops, right? And you would do it. I mean it make your flip flops in ten minutes. Does it how long does it take, by the way? Uh gosh, a few minutes per pair right now. That's great. We'll speed up.

22:25 That no a few minutes is great. I mean if it's part of an activity and it's customizable and even down the road you get your name printed on the you know, on on it. What's the uh the on the strap. I mean You can imagine all kinds of activations. Oh yeah. How hard would it be to create event teams that that go into and kind of building on guys' idea, so you send event teams into uh hotels uh during peak moments and you use that to not only drive sales, but also drive content that ultimately fuels your marketing.

22:54 Uh, there's a process right now with the straps, which is a little more labor intensive and takes a little bit of a skill set. And so that's my only concern. So we would have to figure out a way to streamline that and make it a little more foolproof, I think. But have you done it yourself, anything like that? So far. Oh no, I I love the idea. Yeah, and I there's plenty of'em down here and uh

23:17 I think Doing that would be really fun. And I know my kids would love it. And as Eric said, it it's a chance to create content and to encourage people to do it. You know, scan this QR code, show us your design, na you know, show us your flip flops, feature put the kid you know, I uh and then eventually on your webpage you wanna see kids wearing these things. You wanna see what what it looks like on kids' feet. I love it. Yeah, it's great. Eric, final thoughts or James?

23:39 If you can create cost neutral marketing. through advance that I think you solve your problem. of how to create a flywheel here. And then

23:49 how I agree with Guy is like this is your really selling an experience and any way you can layer on that experience, vacation kids, summer bundles. And I think ultimately as a parent, like That would have been the best souvenir to come back with with kids. Yep. Got it. And useful too, right? Exactly. U not just another piece of junk or like another stuffed animal that just

24:08 Gather dust, yeah. Yeah. Awesome. The brand's called Pigeon Toes James Chambless. Uh thank so much for calling in. Good luck. Thank you guys. It was a pleasure. Thanks again. Thanks. I mean, you've gone through this with your kids and and at some point you're like So you've had this thing on your shelf for like nine years that you bought, you know, at a souvenir shop, and what are you gonna do with it? And so

24:32 Eventually they're just gonna go off to college and just leave it in their room. And then they're gonna box it up and put it in your basement. And then one day you're gonna say, Hey You bought this for like seven dollars on vacation, and I've been storing it in my basement for nineteen years and Anyway. Flip flops. No, and every parent loves flip flops and there's nothing cuter than little flip flops with a kid's name on it and some sort of customization. So like you know, parents will just eat this up.

24:58 Um but I think that's the right approach, the way he's thinking about it. Okay, next up after the break, another caller with another business challenge. I'm Guy Raz, and we're answering your business questions right here on the advice line on how I built this lab. All right, let's bring in our next caller. Welcome to the advice line. You're on with Eric Ryan, co-founder of Method, founder of

25:43 many other brands, Welly Ollie, etc. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business. Thank you, Guy, and thank you, Eric. Uh my name is Ben Forrest and I'm calling out of Deland, Florida. And I'm the founder of Reserved for Humans. Which uh is a brand that is exploring a new category in jewelry.

26:03 And our first product is the spire pendant, which is A light up crystal necklace that is designed to reveal the hidden textures and colors inside of natural stone. The spire is the start to a broader line of illuminated jewelry with more designs currently in development. Awesome. Ben thanks for thanks for uh calling in. So it's a crystal that you wear around your neck and it has like a light in it, like you Flip a switch and a light goes on. Yeah, currently you you twist it to turn it on and it has a very soft Light that lasts surprisingly a long

26:34 Use it sparingly. Got it. And when did you launch this business? Uh I s soft launched it uh last year in August. Uh I say soft'cause I I started with low quantity. Uh the way it was des machine design, uh allowed me to start small, kind of test the market, not go broke. With the tooling and everything. Yeah.

26:55 And tell me who are your customers. Like what w who is who's buying these things. So you would think music festivals, parties, everyone likes their first thing is like go to the music festivals and actually all of our marketing's on on meta right now'cause I can't go past my bandwidth. It's just me doing the marketing. Um And our customers are very, very diverse in age and culture and background and it's it's just surprising to learn how f uh liquid the market is for this thing. And how how have you done so far in sales?

27:25 Yeah, so after soft launching, uh I kind of stress tested uh the ads uh and my my high school friends and my mom just assembling these and December Uh, we did ninety two thousand in uh revenue. Ninety two thousand dollars in December. Yeah. Wow. Have you replicated that since? Uh I actually

27:45 Turned everything off, uh to to go right to China. Uh, I spent two months there to Uh get the assembly and work with factories and prepare for three PO. Um And just now got back, uh actually a few days ago and uh starting to turn the the ads back on and

28:04 Prepared to say. Wow, okay. This is interesting. All right, we got a lot of qu questions for you, but before we get there, what's your question for us? Yeah, so uh the spire penant appears to be the first of its kind. And we've already seen early traction. My concern is that if this truly becomes a new category in jewelry, mainstream, like I really truly believe it will. Larger companies with more resources and speed can come in, uh especially given it's hardware. Um, so should I raise outside capital now and expand the product line and build the brand around it.

28:36 Or just continue bootstrapping. And don't listen to that little voice that's like Hurry up. Got it. Okay. Eric Ryan, I want to bring you in here. Um, interesting product ninety thousand over ninety thousand dollars in one month. I mean, wow. Yeah, uh Ben, what I love what you're doing is you're putting a fresh spin on jewelry. I mean you're really creating digital jewelry. And jewelry has always been about expressing oneself.

28:59 the light approach is you're actually allowing people to express how they feel in that moment. And I think there's something really, really powerful in that. But you're also running the risk of becoming a one hit novelty. And also just getting, you know, run over by fast followers from China and Etsy. So I think being really thoughtful about how you build a brand around this.

29:22 and really laddering up to like what is the big idea here?'Cause the big idea is not jewelry that lights up. I think the big idea is how this allows you to express yourself. in a way that's always been inherent in true to jewelry. but it hasn't been done before and you're just applying a modern approach to that. When people

29:40 use the product, what do how do they really express what they love about it? What does it give'em? I think a Kind of just scratches the Itch uh your your inner child. Uh and that's sounds silly, but that's kind of how it started, is just the the curiosity and And the wonder uh behind this this object, which you can assign

29:59 Meaning and I think It also it like invites curiosity. W so a lot of people they they tell us they get so many compliments and I see it myself wearing it, it just kind of stands out. So people are like, What is that? How does does that light up? Is that a crystal? And it just like Creates a moment.

30:16 By just wearing it too. And then the capital question, have you started to talk to investors yet? I haven't one just kind of like saw our story one day, like in the midst of December, and I just jumped the gun and like sent him some and he

30:29 Apparently loved it, um, but I didn't want to seem desperate and like keep following up. I don't know when the the right time is and that's what brought me here. Well, one thing I can tell you is the right time to raise money is when you don't need it. And you're also kinda solving an imaginary problem right now, which is to take capital or not take capital, but you don't know yet if you can even raise capital. For this.

30:51 And so my advice would be don't worry about the decision to raise or not raise. I would start reaching out to investors and really go into those conversations, not trying to prove yourself, but really improve yourself. like going in and really listening and understanding. And the great thing is like you don't ac actually have to ask for the money because if anybody's excited about it, of course, they'll always offer to invest. That's what investors do. But I think right now I would put aside the decision whether I have to raise capital or not, and I would just start taking meetings. And really use that to learn.

31:22 And then if you have an investor that really wants to move forward with you then make the decision whether to take that investment. And the worst case is you don't need the capital yet. You wanna keep bootstrapping it, but you've started to warm up an investor base. So when you do need the money, you're not starting cold. Yeah, uh my feeling uh slightly different, which is

31:42 I don't think you're in a I think it's a great idea to talk to investors. I don't think you're in a position to raise money. Ninety two thousand in a month is incredible, but people want to see that repeated, right? They want to see consistency. The other thing is is that And I'm just gonna put this very bluntly, and then I'm gonna follow up with it's I'm gonna give you some bad news, but then I'm gonna follow up with some good news, which is

32:01 I don't believe you have a defensible product. This is a product that can be replicated, right? The good news is If you build a brand around it. then you create that mode. And it sounds like that's really where you want to put your energy, which I think is where you absolutely should be putting your energy in the

32:20 brand. around this thing. I mean I'm not a crystalware, but I can imagine The kind of person that wants to wear a glow in the dark crystal Yeah, and I mean this with all sincerity, not in any way like oh that's a sort of a weird hippie but I mean it's a person who wants to be part of a community. Right? What does it mean to wear this?

32:38 It's almost like People who wear fancy watches. You know, uh people who wear certain fancy brands of watches. they will recognize uh somebody else wearing that watch and they will s oftentimes uh have a conversation like across I've seen this happen in restaurants and bars.

32:55 You you know, or or Some people wave at each other when they're driving the same car. That's the community you want to build. Uh A lot of work but really interesting work ahead of you.

33:07 to focus on that community. aspect of this of of what these are because somebody else can come up with light up crystals. So now the question is, Well why are they gonna buy your crystals? Because they're reserved for humans, right? The the this is your brand. So that's that's where I think you are right now. And I agree with Eric, you're not in a place to raise money and you shouldn't be.

33:27 But uh having those conversations certainly doesn't hurt. I just don't know if if you're gonna have the bandwidth to do that and build a brand and focus on advertising and production and et cetera, et cetera. I love that. Thank you. And maybe I'll Take up uh Eric's advice and take these meetings uh when I have the bandwidth. Just for practice and

33:46 Maybe Something will happen. That's right. You know, build those relationships and just get as much free learning as you can while you're on this journey. Eric, you also y it's amazing how many categories you have experience in and and you built brands and you have experience in in jewelry as well. Uh how do you I mean it's I'm putting you on the spot a little bit here, but how would you think about starting to build a brand around

34:08 You know, a light up crystal. Around a pendant around your deck. It's a really exciting challenge, but it's not an easy challenge. And that's why I was going back to like It's how does this product make you feel when you wear it and how does it allow you to express your feelings to other people? And I think in a lot of ways you've kinda created the modern day mood ring.

34:25 And if there's a way to be able to really build into it that you can express your mood or your energy. On the spot. Through it. And I think that's that does what Guy said, is like it then it creates conversations. So when you're in a social setting or a bar and somebody like recognizes it, that's a great conversation starter.

34:46 But I think that's really the big idea here is like I said, jewelry's always been about Expressing individuality and personality and and and what you care about. But no one's ever been able to express their mood in real time through jewelry. And now because you can apply digital technology to do that, I think that's really the big idea. And that's what drives the community.

35:07 That guy is referring to. Yeah, and I'm thinking like you wanna have people posting photos of them at Burning Man or I don't know, just uh festivals and I'm I'm just spitballing here, but like a desert festival, you know. It to me it's like that's It's a community of people who are open, uh artistic, um are free spirited and spiritual maybe.

35:31 Um and there's a lot of different directions you can go in. And I one one thing is is Have you tapped into your customer base? Have you a had a chance to ask Who y like who are you? What are you like? What are you interested in? Have you And if you haven't, then you should start to do that.

35:48 Yeah. Um So Our our ads are uh quite different. And I've used different models and different like the festival vibe. I I Went into to Bonnaru and filmed

36:00 And did reactions and stuff, but a lot of them are uh like I have a model friend that's wearing a denim jacket, very normal clothes and he's got some other chains on. Walking in slow motion and and that's hitting a whole different market, um of just normal, not crystal lovers and music festival rave goers. It's just like It fits in with like a Like that could be my style. And you can

36:23 Wear it with anything. It's like Eric, it's like how like super high end, you know, sort of High fashion. Pear Hokas.

36:33 Like they're wearing hoka's with their outfit because hoka became a thing too, even though it's a consumer brand that anybody can buy, pretty much. Yeah, you know, I think a big idea of digital jewellery is gonna become a real thing. 'Cause it allows you to enhance the appearance of it, if it's done in a really subtle way, which I think is what you're trying to do.

36:51 the people who are using it and expressing their energy in real moments in real life. that is like the community you're building and that's the big idea. I love that. Thank you. Awesome. Ben Forrest, a brand's called Reserve for Humans. Thanks for calling in. Good luck. Thank you so much. Thanks.

37:05 All right. Um, Eric, now that you are a A V C Uh, yeah, fancy. Sounds very fancy. Um

37:16 What now that you have all of this sort of knowledge e about You know, how to run businesses, how to start them. And I've asked you a version of this in the past, but I'm wondering If you have another piece of advice for yourself, or like you know when you were starting out and and also When you were talking to investors, you know, now that you're on the other side of the table

37:36 What would have been helpful for you to know that you No now. You know, I think a common theme in almost everybody we heard today is just confidence. Like all these people are clearly accomplished and and have that ability. But

37:49 The hardest part is the mental game. And that self confidence to keep going when things get hard. And at the end of the day, you know, it's not the capital risk or the time risk. It's really your personal reputation risk and willing to put that out there. But it's the mind games and I find too as I've moved to the venture side, so I use the word coach. Like so much of my job is to just almost play therapist and really help people stay confident and focused on the the right things in this journey.

38:15 And that's the part I wish I had more help with in those early years. Yeah, awesome. Eric, thanks so much for coming back onto the show. Always a pleasure, guys. That's Eric Ryan, he's co-founder of Method, Ollie, Welly, and many more brands. And by the way, if you haven't heard our Method episode with Eric and his co-founder, Adam, you gotta go back and check it out. It's great story, and here's one of my favorite moments from that episode. I read it at one point, Eric, that to prove that this really was non toxic

38:43 You actually drank it. So I was in London, you know, I love the British press, they're so sceptical. And she said is it You know, safe enough to drink. I was like Sure.

38:54 So we both took a shot at the toil bowl cleaner. Okay. And then I immediately uh text Adam finally got back to me. I was like, Hey, just drank the toil bowl cleaner. I'm gonna be okay. Right. Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. And by the way, please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free at guy.com or on Substack. And of course, if you are working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one-minute message that tells us a little bit about your business and the questions or issues that you're currently facing, because we would love to try and help you solve them. You can send us a voice memo at hibt at id.wondery.com, or call us at oneeree.

39:36 one eight hundred four three three. 1298. Leave a message there and make sure to tell us how to reach you, and we'll put all of this information in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Nor Gill with music composed by Ramptina Rablui. It was edited by Casey Herman, and our audio engineer was Cina Lafredo. Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, John Isabella, Carrie Thompson, Chris Massini, Katherine Cypher, Ramel Wood, Sam Paulson, Neva Grant, and Elaine Coates. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to the advice line.

40:09 On how I built this lab.