#125 Paul Rabil: Confidence and Competition

0:00 to have that. Endless competitive streak. You've gotta have a fire in your belly. Morning, noon, and night. the the trait that I'm describing to is really the one percent of the one percent.

0:13 And you know it when you see that competitive'cause it's a kind of a competitive asshole is what you have to become in sports, at least. And what I've learned in business and in life is you've got to be a competitive compromiser. And that requires kindness, empathy. Ingenuity Uh, but the same level of like aggressive competitive spirit.

0:33 But it's shifted. In sports, it's binary. You can just tackle someone and win. Can't do that in life. Welcome to the Knowledge Project. I'm your host, Shane Parish. The goal of this podcast is to master the best of what other people have already figured out, so you can unlock your potential.

1:06 We interview world class doers and thinkers so that you can better analyze problems, seize opportunities, and and master decision making. Every episode is packed with lessons and insights that never expire. If you're listening to this, you're missing out. If you'd like special member only episodes, access before anyone else, transcripts and other member only content. You can join at fs dot blog slash membership.

1:31 Check out the show notes for a link. Paul Rabel is here today. Paul is the Michael Jordan of Lacrosse. Not only is he the face of lacrosse, he's literally the best lacrosse player to ever exist. He's also a gold medal winner. He's also one of the co founders of the Professional Lacrosse League, which is heading into its fourth season.

1:53 I wanted to talk to Paul because I'm interested in how the best become the best and how they stay the best. I want to know the mindsets, the competitiveness, the drive, and all the things that make that possible. We talk about how Bill Belichick tried to make him a safety in the NFL. Where confidence and competitiveness come from. The business side of sport.

2:13 The mental tools to recover after making a mistake How to handle stress and so much more. It's time to listen. and learn. I think the place I wanna dive in is tell me the story of how Bill Belichick once tried to make you a safety.

2:32 Ha ha He uh He is a lacrosse player. He grew up playing lacrosse in Annapolis, Maryland. And He played lacrosse in college. His father was the football coach at at Navy.

2:45 And that's really where he cut his teeth. um literally in the film room cutting tape and that led to where he is today is I think uh A football coach giant. of the world and

2:59 Uh even like in a in a micro uh setting for Coach Belichick. He started cutting tape. And I think in the world of sports, I'm in the sports business. A lot of the best executives commissioners, owners started selling tickets uh for if if that lands for anyone out there listening.

3:17 Then Bill. because of his fandom of lacrosse and his allegiance to lacrosse in a way, he would come to Johns Hopkins practices, which is the the school I attended. Two thousand four to two thousand eight. And uh I built a relationship with him. And my junior and senior year, I was a captain, and I remember asking my coach at the time, Petra Malawa, if I could get

3:38 ten, fifteen minutes with Belichick when he would come to Baltimore and then he granted me that. Uh I graduated from Hopkins. He sent a a box of patriots. swag to my home.

3:50 at the time'cause he knew that I was a Washington football fan. uh growing up in the DMV and he was like now you can support the Patriots Um, I had a really good rookie year playing professional across and I continued to build my relationship with coach. And we would go to dinner a couple of times a year and he would invite me to a Patriots game and spend the weekend with him. And then I started turning into conversations and I I would suspect that for

4:13 Play that he has either drafted or signed, and more likely signed. that aren't football players or non traditional SEC recruits. It started with a conversation that we had, which was I think you could play in the NFL. And uh I was like, I wanna play wide receiver. He's like, I think you'd be a strong safety. I was like, Why? He was like because you have the size and the speed of strong safeties and you have the work ethic. in our league and we went for about six months of

4:38 Deliberating that. And then we both came back together and he was like, You know what? Things are tracking really well in lacrosse. I was just the MVP. at the time and and playing with team USA.

4:48 And we just had a practical conversation, Wayne, risk reward, and uh never pursued it. Well talk to me about that because you're you're you It would be going from the top of the lacrosse world. To Uh I'm assuming on the bubble of the NFL roster.

5:05 For sure. The bottom of the uh of the football world. I guess. to your to your analogy. You know, we just had a guy

5:14 play for half the season in the POL. N FL fans know him. His name's Chris Hogan. Chris is two years younger than me. Um and literally took the path that I was contemplating.

5:26 He was uh An all American at Penn State. And he did take a fifth year,'cause you're given five years of athletic eligibility at the N C double A level, four of them to one specific sport. So he took his fifth year and played football at Monmouth. Uh, and he went the NFL route and he was like jumping from training camp to training camp, rash, roster. It really took him eight, nine years to break through. Then when he broke through, he had big moments. big Super Bowl moments that led to an eleven million dollar a year contract.

5:54 And but not every Path goes like Chris's. It was just really significant for me because we shared in so many similar traits. Like he was a college midfielder. as I was and uh and Bill ended up trading for him. Yeah. Um, but there's just so much risk and and you know, I don't regret it at all.

6:15 Um, because of where I am in my career on the professional side, on the ownership side of a sport that continues to emerge. And what I really love doing, which is storytelling and building businesses. I'm not sure if I would have been able to protect my head, to be honest. It's such a Violent sport. And I wonder if you would have looked back and sort of um you know, life expectancy of an NFL player is not really long and miss this opportunity to regret becoming the greatest ever in your sport.

6:44 I mean the thing about Sport that I don't think people realize. And it's the same in any industry. There's a reset button at every level. From junior high to high High to college, college to pro, pro international.

6:59 Um, meaning you can be the best in class and when you go to the next level, you're then at the bottom of the roster. And the difference between amateurism and professionalism, and I know amateurism's changing now with name, image, and likeness regulation at the at the college level, but just call it amateurism as college and below. versus professional is you have people looking at After you and holding your hand. As an amateur athlete.

7:22 Professionally, no one does. And no one talks about it either. In fact, all we talk about is the path to pro. We don't talk about the path as a pro to thirty five. And and that's really what athletes want. They don't want to fall into the expected two and a half year cycle that all pro sports have.

7:38 Um, so it's uncharted territory and it remains to be that way. But the but the reason I share that story is like It just doesn't matter how good of a college player you are. What matters is like what you uh do and how you apply yourself consistently. in your head space at the professional level. And that's what Bill has a sense for. And he was like, This guy didn't play college football, but

8:01 He's got this work ethic that translates to longevity. And I think that we see again we see that in business, but that that was That's been a glaring

8:12 characteristic that I try to identify even with the next gen lacrosse player or or athletes that I see today in in other sports. How do you maintain that level of work ethic and sort of dedication and love for the sport through the grind through the years? Yeah, it's it's um I think a lot of it is innate. to be honest and it's a it's a dangerous path.

8:34 Because to have that Endless competitive streak. You've gotta have a fire in your belly. Morning, noon, and night.

8:45 And that's hard to reconcile with because most of the time in sport. Most of the time in life. You fail. And so those that have that competitive streak and that desire to be the best and that relentlessness, the doggedness. Um they also sit in that

9:04 seemingly black hole of failure more than others. But that's also why they come out better. More than others. And uh and so you need therapy. You need like good sports psychology. And the the trait that I'm describing to is really the one percent of the one percent.

9:22 And you know it when you see that competitive because it's a kind of a competitive asshole is what you have to become in sports, at least. And what I've learned in business and in life is you've got to be a competitive compromiser. And uh and that requires kindness, empathy. Ingenuity Uh, but the same level of like aggressive competitive spirit, but it's shifted. In sports, it's binary. You can just tackle someone and win.

9:47 Can't do that in life. Talk to me a little bit more about what did you call it competitive Competitive compromise? But yeah, I think the difference between sports and and real life is compromise. And um You know, we my position's unique because I got to

10:05 Build a league. And playing it. most athletes play in leagues and then when they retire they transition. So the conversation is always transferable skill sets between sport and business, sport and life. I get to See, oh damn, I actually think there might be

10:20 Better. transferable skills and business back to sport. It's just that's reverse order that most people don't get. And uh it really helps with leadership. And and essentially what I'm referring to in sports and why people love it.

10:34 is that we get to sit for two hours and count on a binary outcome. Someone's gonna win, someone's gonna lose. And it's it's usually a derivative physicality. Um, and then there's community and engagement tied to which team or which players you're backing. Um, so it's these like exits that we get from the reality of life, and we get to know that we're gonna either win or lose. And life, if you approach it it with a win or lose mentality, you're always gonna lose. Because in business, put it this way.

11:01 The network deal that I'm I'm I'm structuring right now, if if we feel as a company that we won, that means that they lost. Sh and and it and just certain aspects of the deal. Yeah, it's nuanced.

11:16 Same thing in sponsorship. Same thing with employment structure of agreements. And so you actually just want to build towards win-win. And that requires sometimes more conversations. It also requires more concessions. And uh and that's what I mean by compromise.

11:32 But if you think of that, like the only sustainable relationship is win-win. Like if somebody's losing, if one party's losing in a relationship, it it can exist across time. And what will exist is resentment, which inevitably comes to the surface at some point, unless there is a uh Yeah, I mean there's unless there's like narcissistic relational tendencies or manipulation that is also unhealthy. And I think that's your point. Yeah, you look at romantic relationships, pl platonic relationships. the the compromise to me uh Prevails.

12:04 We're we're gonna jump around a little bit here in in terms of the podcast, but you're the only player I can think of who started their own league. Wha what sort of surprised you the most about that journey? how I got there, I think, because it was never part of My plan. Um, I wanted to model and emulate my career really around Michael Jordan. And that's where Competitively I I ran into

12:29 some challenges and I referenced sport psychology and therapy earlier to help Get through it. Um, Michael Jordan, I think, was the greatest athlete and greatest competitor of all time. And the way that makes you say that? Well, having read most of his biographies, having watched every piece of media around him that's been published across, you know, traditional mediums, I can't say I've watched every YouTube highlight of his.

12:54 But knowing his team And then his track record. So if you just look at success side by side. Every championship he was in, he won and he was the MVP of that championship. No one's ever done that. Uh he was six for six.

13:09 at the highest level. And he probably would have been eight for eight if he didn't take a short sabbatical. To go play baseball. That feet. To me, it's just Sheer dominance.

13:19 that you can win every championship you're in and be the MVP of that. in a two way sport where he plays offense and defense, where he was also defensive player of the year, offensive player of the year. So he just dominates. And I think those that are close to him, which I am not. Um, would say that that was through his sheer competitive level. Day to day and everything that he did.

13:39 Yeah, so I wanted to be Michael Jordan on the field and I want to be Michael Jordan off the field, which meant I was gonna take an ownership position professional lacrosse. But I thought it would be through the existing league. Um and then over ten years of playing I have this like I I think it's probably more innate than it is learned, but learning has really

14:00 uh sparked that passion. over the last ten years for me more than anything else is For media. And storytelling. And and then what soon became business. And I think business was by necessity because professional cross players don't make much money. So

14:15 You have to figure out ancillary income streams. Uh, but I became a A student of sports. in sports business and sports media, and I kept running into almost at every turn.

14:28 obstacles and questions as to why Major Lee Lacrosse at the time was not doing what the UFC was doing or M L S was doing or M L B was doing or MBA was doing. And I would have those conversations with with leadership. And Uh, they're met with a lot of resistance.

14:43 And over ten year period I You know, I'm I think lobbied enough. support from players and um respect from players and even uh different, you know, outside Interest.

14:58 And then the the intersection of my brother and I, my brother's a serial entrepreneur and him f finishing really his like third cycle of building businesses looking for a new one. we decided to look at the intersection of sports and entertainment, in particular sport that I think I have subject matter expertise on and that's lacrosse and that that was how we got there. W what are some of the lessons that you've learned about the business of sports that most people in the industry miss? If I could just say lessons in the business without really knowing if people miss or I could refer to where M O L was missing is is that we're actually just in

15:31 The media business. It's all about distribution. You can have the greatest product in the world. agnostic of industry if no one sees it. It doesn't matter.

15:40 Um, and so If you if you want to monetize your product in the commercial space, which were a commercial business. Um, you've gotta get The core audience eyeballs on it and engaged, and then you gotta go after net new eyeballs.

15:56 And so everything starts with your distribution deal. uh professional sports team sports in America dating back to the early nineteen hundreds and our Past time as major league baseball. That was a ticket business. And that was an event business. It was just print and radio at the time. Television era of the sixties uplifted the NFL.

16:16 Um, now you could say sports, especially emerging sports, are uh trans formative because of the digital and social era that we're in. That's our media. But you still have to access the knowns of media, which are television print and call it audio.

16:34 No. Um, because that gives you maybe not the scale that digital and social does. But it gives you the Um

16:44 It gives you like the gold standard of respect and um And almost like eligibility of of mind share for sports fans around the world. Oh, w I wanna come back to a little bit about you as a player. I mean, you you achieved basically being the Michael Jordan of your sport, right? How how did you handle the the pressure That comes along with the

17:07 Or did you ever feel that pressure? Well, based on my standard of of Michael Jordan, I did not achieve that. I've lost championships. Um, and I certainly wasn't the the player that he was relative to his sport, but Well, j just to put it in context, the greatest lacrosse player of all time. We can consider MJ the greatest basketball player of all time. Yeah. Um the unknown for me at the time, but the trick in a way is that I never I never focused on getting too far ahead of where I was

17:40 at the time. And the time for me And the lessons in sport. It's real are really meditative. It's being present. And

17:52 completing the task at hand to the best of your ability. So whether that was like every day Against the wall, shooting on that. I would have this approach that I wouldn't stop until I felt like I got as close to perfect as possible.

18:08 So it wasn't like timed, it wasn't number of reps, it was just out there. 'Cause I wanted to be great. And then when I was playing, whether it was high school, college professionally internationally. I always wanted to be the best version of myself and then the best version of the

18:24 An on that team. And then the best player on the field. Which could you know, then quickly became best in the world or best in college or best in high school. So I it was like that process to me.

18:39 uh unfolded. organically, if that makes any sense. I didn't uh because I do see kids that say, I want to be the best in the world, or I want to be the best player in high school. And and they're not even close to being the best player on their midfield line yet. So I I I stacked them, I think, appropriately. It's not that I ignored or I never put a you know, a goal that I wanted to be the the greatest player ever. I I did.

19:02 But I I focus on how to get there versus just saying, I wanna be there. Were you always the hardest worker on the teams that you were on? I mean, I think that's that's relative. Or I shouldn't say is relative, but mostly subjective.

19:16 Um, I believe that I was. Um And there were probably Guys that thought that they worked harder than me, but they but they maybe only thought of it linearly.

19:27 They worked harder than me in the weight room. And worked harder than me, maybe on the field. But Why

19:34 Why I think that my meter was always full is I I never stop thinking about it. And even to this day, I think what helps drive our business is that Mike and I think about it. All the time. And it's a blessing and a curse.

19:48 But I'll be watching you know, squid game and thinking about how Squid Game became the most popular title on Netflix, I immediately think start thinking about the the business. And I'm reading about it and seeing the simultaneous release in one hundred and ninety countries in thirty one different Closed captions and thirteen different dubovers.

20:06 All at once. First time they ever did that. So they eliminated the language barrier, it became a universal title overnight. What are how what are the lessons in sports? And so that's what I mean. Whether I was playing, I was like watching

20:18 Chris Paul. make a pass with his weak hand off balance. What's that lesson in across? How can I emulate that? So wasn't just what I was doing on the field, it was what I was doing really in everything in life. I think that's so important. Uh I don't think you'll ever be exceptional at anything you're not sort of thinking about constantly.

20:36 Um when you were practicing, was it sort of regimented or was it more creative? It was creative at first and then it became very regimented. The way that I think about my career is actually in three phases I started playing the game when I was twelve and all the way up until my sophomore year in high school I was playing because I had a passion for it. It was fun.

20:58 Loved it. Um the fun and the love didn't go away. It got superseded by competitiveness. And my sophomore year I started getting like A lot of eyeballs and recruits. uh recruiting letters and stuff.

21:11 And so then I started really like sh regimenting gamifying in many cases, doing whatever I could, timing, counting everything that I did. And that was both tiresome, but it was also, in my opinion, the fastest path to to like high growth improvement.

21:30 And that lasted really all the way until I was about Twenty eight. To thirty in that range. Um, that's when I started getting injured. And I think what what happened is like Yeah.

21:40 sustainably you can only be that competitive in a contact sport the way that I've played for so long without Finally breaking down. And the breaking down was my body and then my mind because of my body. That's what I got in you know, had surgeries, gotten to sports psychology, got into therapy, and then the the back portion of my career call it thirty one to thirty five.

22:01 has been more reflective and more appreciative. I've had to recharge that compete level at moments, but I could also shut it off. And I could also play for fun and shut that off too. And so you think about athletes when they're at their best is maybe um the ability to to have a an overarching

22:22 approach that is within their control. You're still going, I mean, you're still playing. What things do you sort of do to take care of your body now? Like what nutrition habits do you have? What do you do from a physical standpoint to keep it going? Is there like a Tom Brady stretching um sort of pliability regimen going on here. W what do you have on the back end here? Well, I I just uh I just retired after the season. I uh yeah, I mean I I had a really good season, which in in

22:51 actually didn't make it difficult to retire for me because I had made a decision at least. Yeah. personally in advance of the season because of the toll of building the league and playing in it. Physically, my body continued to break down and then just mentally I was

23:06 I was not there as I used to be. coming out of the pandemic and building the bubble and playing in that was difficult as well. Um, but I felt like it was time to to really like centralize my efforts and drive La cross forward.

23:22 Um So so it turns out I I had one of my best seasons as a thirty five year old playing injured. Um and that's I think Largely because I knew And I was the only one who knew that I was emptying out the tank every weekend. But to to sustain a career into your thirties, even into your twenties.

23:41 As uh as a hard charging professional athlete that's in a contact sport. You always have to take care of your body. Sleep number one, hydrate number two, eat number three, Stay on your workouts number four.

23:55 Stay on your skill number four. Four point two. And the reason I say that is like you know, as you get in your late twenties and thirties The margin

24:03 Uh Improvement on skill is really thin. Um and in fact, like you're able to tap into skill better if you're smarter. that you weren't able to utilize, you didn't even know you had. Uh, so to speak.

24:17 But to be able to play one in your career you just have to carry your body in your mind. In season and off season. Always Always uh omnipresent. There.

24:26 How do you take care of your mind? Go deeper on that. Well, taking care of your mind starts with taking care of your body. Um,'cause your body will let your your mind down as an athlete. Uh, and I think that's probably the case for anyone, really. So there's like There's tactics, tangible steps that will help.

24:43 Your mentals. By eating well, sleeping well, staying hydrated. That's one. Number two is um you know, really understanding

24:54 Why the way you are. And in particular, I find it very relational. Like what makes you happy, what makes you sad, what makes you agitated. uh what gives you your anxiety and stress. And understanding

25:09 Whether that's attachment theory, whether that is The way that You know, you have Overlapped. your career with your life.

25:19 And what are the upside and downsides there? The way to unpack it is the best way to unpack it is with counsel. Um, whether that's it for athletes in sports psychology And therapy and couples therapy. I think that

25:33 In sports it's a it's a great place to analyze how we improve. No one bats an eye at having a shooting coach, a head coach, an assistant coach, a strength coach. A medical team Doctors. Physios.

25:48 Physical therapist, trainers. Like they're all there to help. 'Cause they're experts. Why not tap into if we want to improve our mental health experts in that field? Well, it's been stereotyped and stigmatized through modern media and

26:02 you know, slow return advancements as to why. But I I think we're close to breaking through that. Um That obstacle. When you were playing, do you did you ever

26:13 feel like somebody else was better than you, like there's a better player than you. Uh, that's a great question. So the truth is that I did it. But I always felt threatened. by that and I was always comparing myself to others and that was the the bad side of it.

26:28 The comparison was the bad side. Oh yeah.'Cause you're constantly A B and you're constantly like judging other people and Yeah. looking at their stats versus yours. And it's like unhealthy because that wasn't the best path to continued growth.

26:43 personally, which is what I was describing earlier. But that was just there. Because I was a I was a competitive asshole. And uh and so The

26:54 You know, the the tricky part about sports is Yeah, the balance of of confidence. versus cockiness. versus

27:04 you know, hints of narcissism. around I am the best and I'm the best because I just believe I'm the best or I'm telling you I'm the best. Like It's highly subjective. You can't get there without

27:15 Like fully buying into that. And you can't fully buy into that without really putting in all the work. That you can and having the results on the field. So

27:28 You know, I see a uh I I see, you know, people trying to convince others that they are or convince themselves, but it it's It's a holistic approach and then And then irrational belief. Because a lot of times I wasn't. Um, probably very few times I was.

27:45 But if I didn't buy into that. belief then I wouldn't have continued to improve like I did. So al almost sort of like If I were to paraphrase confidence comes from putting in the work and the results and at times having an irrational belief in yourself. Yes, that's right. And And the

28:04 the ability to Persevere. Through failure. I I think There's a misconception out there.

28:13 that successful people Have faced fewer obstacles. Than most. It's quite the opposite. I think what makes successful people or successful athletes I'll just use as an example.

28:27 Is They have failed in many cases more than most people because they've had the audacity to try things that are out of their wheelhouse more regularly. They take a they had high risk. Um Yeah, we'll we'll continue with Michael Jordan famously cut.

28:45 from the varsity team. Um, he was a sophomore. That's not not the part of the story they told in a time where like no sophomores made varsity. Um but like the the the story is like oh he was cut from the basketball team. Well we played J V and he was the best player in J V. But he had the audacity to try out for the varsity team, then get cut, take it personally and come back way better.

29:09 than how he made the varsity team his sophomore year. So in hindsight it's it's actually those high risk, the volume of take of risk taking Met by the resilience. and the ability to like get up and and be better because of that failure.

29:25 Uh a lot of great athletes. Take it personally. Um And those are things that you also have to shed. When when you get out of

29:34 sport and into life and business is take things less personally. Uh, but in sport things are very personal and I think that in a way drives That uh outcome that we see with a lot of athletes. How how do you do that in a game or sort of after a game, like you make a mistake, how do you put that out of your mind, go on to the next play, the next series, or the next game? Like how how what is the mental process you go through

30:00 to sort of, you know, in Belichick's words, we're on to Cincinnati. Right. Like what is that process that you're you're sort of drawing. I think every athlete will tell you it's easier said than done. Uh, but it is the key to success and consistency over time. is your ability to have resilience in a game. I think what makes sports Great.

30:19 Is that You can have a poor game. And then use the weak. to recalibrate. So you go back And you practice and then you get the benefit of time, which time is is a healing mechanism.

30:31 Uh to do that in the in a sixty minute game is a lot more difficult. Re requires, I think, a high level of mental aptitude. um and and mental training. So uh I'll give you one example. It's called a rebound goal. I think golf gets it right,'cause golf is a really challenging sport and that's the genesis of rebound goals. Uh an example of a rebound goal And

30:53 Golf is an up and down. Where like literally Phil Mickelson has made tens of, if not hundreds, of millions of dollars being famous for hitting Miraculous shots, which by the way, it's a miraculous shot because he had a shitty T shot.

31:09 Um, but they celebrate an up and down And that's a and that's a rebound goal because it's coming off of a bad shot. In in most sports, if you have a bad shot, what do you think the next shot is gonna be? Bad again, bad again, bad again. And that's what we're trying to fix. Is is your suggestion.

31:27 So creating in team sports a lot more difficult than golf. Um because they because of w what kind of just said in team sports are there's more people on the field and there's there's more actions and reactions that are out of your control. So I always focused on what are my rebound opportunities off of a bad play.

31:47 that are within my control. And it's like a lot of it was like effort getting back on defense. Like I took a bad shot or turned the ball over. I would stay on the field. to try to like get that mental rep back where a lot of people make a bad shot or turnover and they run off the field and they sub out. Um, so not knowing that I can't count on the ball will be back on my stick.

32:08 Again. Can I go stay on the field and play defense against the guy who does have the ball in a stick and build that Confidence back up. That's a rebound goal. control the controllables, right? What what can I do right now? What's the next sort of thing to get me back on track? It's almost like remembering the basics, right? So it's like you get lost, you you make a bad play, and then it's like okay, I don't want to get fancy. I don't want to get complicated. I just want to get back to like what are the core things I need to pay attention to. Yeah. But you know the other thing is

32:37 You know, step one is that awareness. Step two is then adjusting the neuroscience. And that's where athletes really struggle. It's like I know you can almost zoom out and be like, I know what's happening to me right now. I'm losing confidence'cause I made two bad plays in a row. And I know that I can turn this around. But I have this feeling in my body. I'm running hot.

32:58 And I I'm ruminating and I can't get out of it. That's like real biochemical takeover. There's science behind that. Um, so there are also techniques that you can do. Breeding. You know, actually getting

33:10 uh an ice towel on your neck to like shift the chemistry that's happening in your body. Your body actually is getting hot when you're getting angry. And uh and I found that those tactics actually resemble a lot of in basketball when you get on the free throw line, you go through your routine. That is meditative. It's a reset.

33:28 for uh everything that's happened up to that point. So you can just put the ball in the hoop from close range. Which you're tend to be really good at if you're at the M VA level. I I wanna come back to MJ and sort of competitiveness and getting cut. Like Wh where does competitiveness come from? It seems to c a lot of people I mean Tom Brady might be the counterexample to this, but

33:49 You know, it seems to come from anger. in a lot of people or I mean to even Brady, a huge chip on his shoulder, right? Like gets to Michigan, can't even, you know, start, Drew Henson comes in. He's like switching duties with him. Like talk to me about where that drive comes from for you and where you see it come from for other people. I don't think that it comes from

34:11 Anger'cause I think Operating with anger Is it? the best path and if you look at best in class in theory operating from anger, like I I have a hard time thinking that that that was the source.

34:25 I do think that mentally Elevating doubt. And fear. i is probably uh the better uh way to describe

34:37 how these top athletes think. They're they're they're They're fear motivated. uh fear of not being the best, fear of losing. and and fear of not performing well.

34:49 Uh it's a huge motivator. And so I think that that's probably It versus anger. Um, and I think that that can come from a number of things. It comes from the way that we're raised. Product of our environment.

35:04 socioeconomic disparity from athlete to athlete. Yeah, again, like all things that differ. From one person to the next. Um, and then I think there's I think there's gene pool.

35:16 as well. Whether you're uh You know, a descendant from Uh a conqueror. An emperor like Genghis Khan.

35:24 Or not. Um, like that's a crazy theory, but like that that like I think that That Conquering spirit. performs quite well in sport.

35:35 Wh where did yours come from? Um, I think it's probably a combination of kinda like the the Rabel family tree coming over from Lebanon as immigrants and uh the work ethic. Uh

35:50 my great grandparents, my grandparents, and to my father that was uh demonstrated To me as as a kid. Uh all the way through to to today. the the fear based motivation

36:02 really began to trigger for me. In that high school. Kind of phase two that I had mentioned. Um and so it it uh

36:12 I I think I i it began to form as I started tasting success. Because success was so good and failure was so bad. Um that I I uh

36:24 I I really wanted to to skew toward the former as much as possible. And and that was binary for me, because in sport you can block out everything else in life. And um and so it's it's it's like a breeding ground for for that type of motivation. Uh so that's what I think as a combination of of having supreme work ethic.

36:45 bestowed upon me from my family heritage. uh, you know, blessed with Strong athletic genes. And I celebrate. The notion that

36:55 I have performed beyond my probably like my projected capabilities. you know, when my younger self may would may have taken offense to it. Like what does that mean? I'm not as good of an athlete as I think I am, but I I think that

37:09 We should all feel good about our lives if we out kick our coverage or punch above our weight glass. Well, one of the challenges in a team sport is that you're sort of defined by your wins, right? And and the greatest players get paid the most and they also have to mesh with their teammates.

37:29 How do you think about contracts that sort of incentivize individual success and not team success? As a player uh being on the team and the best in the league, but also as an owner of a league and trying to create the best product on the field. I mean it's a it's a huge dilemma in sports and teams and ownership groups do it differently, but I I totally see the the paradox of incentivizing wide receivers based on number of catches and touchdowns scored. And then trying to address the sideline issues of the quarterback not throwing to them and then

38:01 You know. having a temper tantrum. Like you get uh you understand it. Yeah. And then it's distracting to the overarching goal of the team, which is winning. I think the Patriots do a really good job of building incentive incentives around starting. And playing in games.

38:15 And they don't incentivise based off of number of catches or touchdowns or yards passed. So you can still build an incentive structure to performance, which is kind of the business behind the scenes and what agents are gonna want to push for. So As an athlete.

38:30 being represented by management, like you want them to create best in class terms in your contract. Um, and then you walk away and you go, Well, these might be at odds with the team. Um so that's just pro sports. And and frankly, uh there's that in business too.

38:46 um sales figures within your B D Org. uh are incentivized and you want the entire sales team to collaborate and share on deals and share contacts and so on and so forth. So That's where like good managers and good leadership comes in, whether it's the head coach, assistant coaches to you know, your your executive team um down and like building a really strong culture.

39:09 So that you celebrate individual performance, but individuals uh widely recognize that their success contributes to the companies or the teams. Talk to me a little bit about what it means to be a captain of a team. Like leading a team as a player.

39:27 The well the p the person you should interview who's best suited for this is Sam Walker. Who uh wrote the clo the Captain's Class. And he's he's studied the best teams and dynasties in the world. Um, and he'll tell you that uh the the best captains Our

39:46 Most responsible. For the success. of dynasties. and the best teams in in professional sports history.

39:55 Around the globe. So he ran this um study around the best teams ever. most championships dynasties in eras across sport, across gender. And he came down to like ten. teams and he found uh he he found something he wasn't looking for.

40:12 which was a singular captain across each of those teams that was a water bottle carrier, which was often Not the person responsible for top performance. And he references Pele, for example, that never had or was never given the responsibility to Captain Brazil because they always viewed it as like Why give him that extra responsibility when he's got enough?

40:33 pressure. He's got to score three goals a game. Like let's get out of his way. Get out of his way. Yeah, it doesn't mean you're the best player. Yeah. And I I I think like Western culture gets it wrong. in sports for that for that reason. Like I grew up in a system where best player was captain. And we should think critically around who is best to be captain.

40:53 Where you're leading the team, you're empathizing with the team, you're bridging the comms from the coaches to the teams, in some cases, teams to coach to GM. And that requires a lot of time. A lot of individual and group conversation. And time uh must not be Discount it.

41:11 because time is at a premium when it comes to pro sports and individual performance and all the stuff we just talked about. It it's it's a really important question because your team's success relies on your choice for captain. I wanna switch gears a little bit and get into a little bit more personal questions if you're okay with that. Sure. What have you struggled with in life?

41:31 A lot. I s I struggle every day. Um, so there's not one thing I can think about. The first the first word that came to mind was balance. And I I I I've thought a lot about it, spent a lot of time around balance. So What does that mean to you?

41:44 Well, it it means that Like happiness. There isn't A moment or a time in your life where or or a

41:54 place to be where you'll feel More balance than you do now. I think the perspective at least that I subscribe to around balance and happiness. It's it's it's more of the frequency of those moments, small moments. It gets you feeling whole.

42:10 In the intensity of one. you win a championship, it's amazing, but it's just actually just not as great as uh it's led up to be. And most athletes and coaches like a day or a week later like okay, on to the next one.

42:24 So it's it's the frequency of Moments of happiness, a frequenci of moments of feeling balanced and secure. And frequency meaning that there are a lot of moments where there isn't. But if you can get more than half, then That's a good place to be. So I think it uh where I struggle with the most probably just

42:40 talking this out is um is dealing with the lows. And knowing that there's always gonna be the other side of it if you continue to persevere. When do you feel the greatest sense of inner peace? In the morning, I think. before before the day starts.

42:55 And then sometimes mid morning after the day has started and I get a break. That's probably like The time Where I feel the most interpiece. Are you alone?

43:06 Typically yes. And it doesn't matter where you are, like in nature in your car, it's just that inner like your alone inner peace. That's right. It's it's the reset. The start of a day. you know, sleep is is really important.

43:20 in the in that regard. And it doesn't happen every morning. Because there's some times where you wake up with your head on fire. With a bunch of stuff to do. Uh, but in in those moments where you do have time and space and using it wisely.

43:34 Uh, that's where I have the most interpiece. When are you most likely to lose control of your thoughts? Pretty regularly actually. I struggle with ADHD. in in today's technological world. There are uh

43:45 There are things happening to me, not just in my own head, but around me with hardware. that distract me. It's it's a big challenge of mine is is um is being present. Um

43:59 And then the flip embracing Some of the uh benefits. Uh the way that my mind tends to work, which

44:08 shoots off in sometimes a dozen directions at the same time. Helps me solve for problems that I think are multi dimensional or abstract. So it's it's again that balance of

44:22 What got me here. uh is also Making me feel this way. And so let me Use the strengths.

44:31 And also acknowledge the weaknesses and care for those and help cure those. It it's so like ADHD in in society is so strange to me,'cause we tend to focus only on the weaknesses without the corresponding advantages that you you gain from that. Yeah, oh no doubt. I I so I grew up with learning differences and um I believe that my learning differences ended up being a gift.

44:56 Um, because the way that I've had to learn in a traditional education model. Which is very linear. was almost through R and D.

45:06 Like a and and course of action. And in some cases like acting out. A history lesson helped me retain the information.

45:16 And so schools that specialize in educating children with learning differences Whether it's somewhere on the spectrum to dyslexia, to ADHD, to ontoid processing disorder. I think they actually get it right. And it's led to a very entrepreneurial environment for me.

45:33 uh where I I actually love to problem solve and I like to question the status quo. Even like the the quick snare at like I retired and You know. Maybe I'll come back. Is a challenge to the status quo. Like why in sports do you if you if you want to take a break, do you do you have to like end it all?

45:51 Well, it's just because it's all it it is a commoditized business. Athletes are commoditized. However, like it just doesn't need to be that way. Like Gronkowski needed two and a half seasons to heal, and now he's playing great again. Yeah. Uh and I'm not for the record, I'm not planning to come out of retirement, but I do think the the systems Arcane. Um, and it's worth talking about. So so that that I'm I'm constantly, and I think it's because of the way that my brain functions, constantly challenging status quo.

46:17 Wh what are you afraid of? I'm fearfully motivated on the field. I think fear kicks in. in a lot of other aspects of life. I feel that it is more unhealthy. than than motivating.

46:31 I'm not afraid of Anything at the moment. When I've spent seven years in therapy, I do weekly therapy. I I think that I have the mammoths on my shoulders. Yeah. that we all do uh critical

46:46 negative self talk, etcetera. What therapy does is is just kind of like Dissipate. A lot of that or lower the volume?

46:56 And gives you perspective that like those mammoths never go away. The goal is to actually just shrink them in size. And that I think helps with Fear of one thing.

47:07 Or another. What habits are you trying to break right now? Phone had it. Maybe some caffeine kicks. Um

47:15 uh critical self talk. Uh those types of things. What are you most stressed? I'll I'll stick with time and space. Usually like the the three to five o'clock.

47:25 Range in the afternoon. Um,'cause I never get everything done. In a day, never. Um, and I think that's just That's okay. It's

47:34 Called entrepreneurship. And I I'm at this stage of my life I'm I'm really trying to explore relationships more and the enjoyment of life more. Which conflicts with you know, eighty hour work weeks. So

47:47 that like bottleneck is that three to five PM range'cause I I don't stop work at five. But like you start thinking all right, if I need to get out of here by six or seven. I've gotta start jamming now. And then and then looking at a counter from time to time where there's twelve or thirteen meetings in a day, then you're like fuck. This is gonna be a stressful one.

48:08 What's most important to remind yourself in those moments when you're feeling that stress? Um, that there are tactics to get out of it. I mentioned um you know, m meditation, breathing. accessing Uh cold ice. Yeah, that was an interesting one. You mentioned putting cold ice around your neck, eh? So so similar to

48:29 um schools that specialize in edu educating children with Learning differences. Um, I think that certain Therapy.

48:38 Yeah. It's Focused on working with certain people on the DSM call it.

48:45 It's it's actually like really good therapy for anyone. So so example is dialectical behavioral therapy. It's called DVT. It is a a process often worked w through with people with personality disorders. Um, but it's very tactical. because people with personality disorders are often dealing with disassociation. Um, but the difference between a personality disorder and someone who doesn't

49:08 At least from a prescription standpoint. non-medical is is like we have the same thoughts, we just are able to step away from it. that critical inner voice I was just mentioning. Someone who experiences disassociation

49:22 has that same thought that we do, and then it becomes reality. So DBT uh will give tactics to stepping out of it. One of them is changing your body temperature. So like putting your hand in the freezer or like having it having an ice pack and just cooling off your head, taking a walk. Um And uh

49:40 Yeah, meditating, things like that. What does a walk do? reactivates your your biochemistry in your body. It's like begins to release endorphins, which helps shift some of that mindset. Um some of the most stimulating and I think

49:55 uh breakthrough thoughts that Mike and I have are on hikes. Yeah, I've I find it's a great way to think and reflect and also just generate new ideas. I love walking meetings. Uh it feels it feels so much healthier and just looser and more natural. Yeah, the only thing you have to be careful of is meetings running long and then all of a sudden you're you're missing others. I I was there during Covet. I I would take most of my meetings walking. uh with headphones in. And then I found out I was bumping up against other meetings, so I had to Be more thoughtful.

50:23 Wha what keeps you up at night? Um, fortunately, not much. I I've uh I I can sleep really well. It's it's a benefit. Um, or at least I say it's I can go to sleep. Really well. Oh, you don't stay asleep? I don't stay asleep. So maybe the question is like what Keeps you from sleeping.

50:41 Do you have the entrepreneur's curse of like waking up at four AM or three AM and just being ready to go? Lit literally you should have stopped at four AM. Like I did it this morning, I did the morning like I can count on waking up at four A. M almost every day. And I think it's for different reasons, but And at different moments.

51:00 Uh right now a lot is going on in my life because I've retired, I'm bi coastal, um in a big moment for our business in transitioning from year three to four. So I'm having trouble staying asleep. But going to sleep uh again has never been an issue. Luckily.

51:19 What are you most optimistic about? uh the future of our business right now. I I'm really optimistic about where the P O L is going and the people that we have here, the talent. It's not just in the workforce, but on the field. Um, it's what I spend most of my time thinking about is is uh is our business that we're building. And and final question, I always try to end with the same question, but what do you want other people to s say about you?

51:45 Uh when you're no longer here. Oh man, that's It's really difficult. It's like writing your own obituary. Um I think that uh the one word comes to mind it's impact. Um and impact.

51:59 fill in the blank, but I I hope to have an impact on the next generation. uh impact on the current I don't wanna call current generation, I just wanna call it impact on people that I know. uh people that I I share an experience with.

52:13 That that to me is is uh at the highest level what We're hoping to do. In business. Relationships, interactions. Of all sorts.

52:24 That's a great place to end this. Thank you so much, Paul. Yeah, thanks for having me, I enjoyed it. The Knowledge Project is produced by the team at Furnham Street. I'd love to get your advice on how to make this the most valuable podcast you listen to.

52:42 Email me at shane at fs.blog. You can learn more about the show and find past episodes at FS dot blog slash podcast. To get a transcript of this episode, go to fs.blog slash tribe or check out the show notes. Can you do me a small favor? Go online right now and share this episode with one friend who you think would love it.

53:02 Thanks for listening and learning with us. Till next time.

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