#120 Chris Bosh: Hunger and Greatness

0:00 Yeah, when you put that NBA in your chest, it's different when We always had jokes like, Yeah, that popcorn. Once that popcorn gets to popping, it's a different it's a different show. Think about it. Do you smell popcorn like that at at High school basketball games, kinda, but not really. Popcorn.

0:17 People are here to see the show, so now it's about performance, it's about consistency. And it's about doing your job and and making sure you're helping this team win. And if not There's a problem. People will move, people get traded. Man

0:31 It's professional now. Welcome to the Knowledge Project Podcast. I'm your host, Shane Parish. This podcast sharpens your mind by helping you master the best of what other people have already figured out. If you're listening to this, you're missing out. If you'd like special member only episodes, access before anyone else, transcripts, and other member only content. You can join at fs.blog slash tribe.

1:09 Check out the show notes for a link. Chris Bosch is here today. One of the best to ever play basketball. He's an eleven time NBA All Star, a two time world champion. NBA Hall of Famer and Olympic Gold Medalist. Originally drafted by the Toronto Raptors, fourth overall in the NBA draft, he also played for the Miami Heat, where he won two world championships. This episode isn't really about sports as much as it's about life.

1:34 Chris had his playing days cut short by a freak medical condition. There was no farewell game. There was no last shot that he knew of. And he had no idea when his last game was gonna be. We talk about the rare combination of talent and hunger.

1:47 Emulating others before becoming your own person. Individual versus team. The subjective things that set championship teams aside. Self-doubt, what it means to lead by example, where confidence comes from. And so much more.

2:02 It's time to listen. And learn. Where did your love of basketball come from? It came from uh my father. Um I watched um he would take us to the recreation centers on uh on weekends. And he played in the church leagues uh quite a bit.

2:24 You know he was a very active dad and then you know, even as he didn't have time for doing those things. Uh, we still would go Like to the park. Play basketball.

2:36 Pretty much when I saw I saw Michael Jordan in ninety one, ninety two. Every time I went over my uh Grandmother's house in Dayton, Ohio for the summer. The Bulls will be playing. And I thought that was so fascinating that the same team was playing and then they get a trophy and later on I learn that it's oh it's champagne that they're spraying around and

2:59 Not only that, it was everybody watching or huddled around the TV, watching the TV. Like my dad and his friends and you know, any Any any little boy uh anything that the dad does is the thing to do, right? Yeah, I I saw those things, I retained those images

3:19 And really I just the feeling too, once I felt Once I felt what I felt when I watched these things like the whole I felt like the whole world disappeared. You know, if we're watching a uh uh the finals game late night I just felt like it was me and the TV. It could have been Hundred people there. You c I mean my whole family is there sometimes.

3:38 It just felt like it was me and the T V. So I It was just in there and once I saw that, I said, Okay, yeah, I wanna d I'll just do that. I wanna do that. So yeah. That's it. A lot of talented kids uh lack hunger. Where does the hunger come from? And how do you keep going back to that well, even when you don't feel like it? Like when you're doing suicides in the gym, like how do you keep going back to that? Yeah.

4:03 I did suicides early. Um, th that that's like a a good practice, uh, to shock'em early. Uh, you know what? Uh I wanted to I just wanted to be the best that I could be. That was important to me early. And to be honest with you, I realized how you you realize the difference

4:23 in treatment to be honest with you when you're playing basketball or Not only playing basketball, but you're excelling in the s in the in the classroom. You put those things together, I learned very quickly. The first time I played basketball in front of people was in the fourth grade.

4:40 I distinctly remember to this day people oh Chris is good. Chris I mean, people always call me Chris Bosch my whole life. And so it's like oh Chris Bosch can play. Chris Bosch is Chris Boston played basketball. And and I was so interesting. I had never heard that before because Up until that point. You you just you're just a student. You just kinda mix in.

5:01 But after that. I said, Okay. Yeah. I I wanna do that. And and then I kept getting the confirmations and the the exterior treatment, I suppose, that's what

5:15 What kind of aided like okay, that goes along with how I feel. I feel good about it and then people are smiling when they see me play. Or see me after a win or even a loss sometimes, you know. It was uh it was a good feeling. How did you deal growing up with all those eyes on you? Like everybody's watching you. I think back to some of the stuff I did as a teenager and I'm like oh shit, man Yeah it's tough, man. I mean even looking back on it, it is crazy, right? Yeah. And I can't even

5:46 really explain to you, um, because those are the times to make mistakes. Right, those are the times to Right, those are the times to be like, No, no, no, you can't Do this, but for me I was already so focused. I wanted nothing more than to be a basketball player. That's all I ever wanted to be.

6:03 And so every an inch of my being. was towards that goal. I had other likes. I had friends. We went to parties and all kind of stuff. But I went to a tremendously amount different amount of parties than my friends, you know, I didn't

6:22 I I had my focus. I had what I wanted to do. And so I went I went all for it, um once once I started. There's a couple things I want to talk to you sort of about the the high school experience here. And I think the first is in your book you sort of talk about you love playing

6:40 uh you know the wealthy kids from the prep schools'cause they just didn't want it want it as bad as you. Talk to me about that. Yeah. Well, I mean, you you were asking about hunger. Those were the some of the things that I was hungry about. That's that inspired Lit the fuse um for me. When I say those things and it's no knock against them because now my kids are those kids. Isn't how isn't life funny? You know

7:03 I knew what we had or we didn't have. We did not have the resources, right? And I love nothing more than Than the summertime, so I could go and play summer league basketball. And see these Texas schools which are like malls. You know, they've got McDonald's and Chick fil A in there for lunch. It's crazy. It's like mind boggling Things and then

7:27 You go to the gym and they've got a weight room, they have all these amenities, you know? And to be honest with you, I heard kids that weren't appreciative of it. They Could only find the faults. in those things. And so When I saw that I was like man, I want this. You know, I wanna

7:45 I want air conditioning in my gym. That's something that's something we should all want. And the fact that they weren't appreciative of it. It just drove me more. I mean, yeah, they had the things that I wanted. They had the PlayStation.

8:01 You know, they had their own room. I didn't get my own room till I was seventeen. You know, I shared a room with my brother my whole life. I mean small stuff, right? Like If we're playing a team And even if I beat you, you can you get to go and have some pizza

8:17 I'm gonna eat leftovers at home. You know? Nothing wrong with that, it's fine, but I want pizza. You know, I want those things that are out there. And

8:28 It was just such a mo motivating factor because basketball was always the ultimate equalizer. It didn't matter. you know, your parents status or your status or If you had a car or not. When we play on this game, I'm gonna take it out on you.

8:44 Yeah, that drove me. I wanted I wanted those things that they had. So I wanted to exercise that That feeling of getting out my frustration and showing how bad I want them. And then th then when you got those things, so you kept going. Like as an adult, uh you know, playing professionally drafted fourth overall by the Raptors, millions of dollars.

9:05 Y now all of a sudden your environment is all those things. How do you still keep going? You know, I never it was never about those things. I I never to be honest with you, I never had a concept of money. Um I do now as I'm older, of course. I have kids and bills. um that need paying and taxes and stuff like that. You become more aware as a s as as a citizen But at that time I hustled for everything I had. I was joking earlier today, I tell people like, yo, the NBA was my fourth job.

9:36 You know, it wasn't my first job. It wasn't it was just the The amount of money being talked about was so astronomical there's no reason to talk about it. I want it to be like Kobe. I want it to be like Michael. I want it to be like KG. Now it's about the glory. It's about

9:55 the name on my back of my jersey and you know, it's about me establishing who I am. and achieving and continuing to achieve great things. Because yeah, now I'm hearing I see that from so many young athletes. They make the mistake of just saying, I made it And they don't have to work anymore. No, you have to continue to work, as a matter of fact.

10:15 It gets harder. Uh because you're making millions of dollars. Take money out the equation. You can't complain about money anymore. Even if people are stealing it from you. Okay.

10:25 Put that to the side. You can't talk about being happy anymore. Uh uh because everybody assumes that you're happy. Uh so for me It was just about putting everything into the game. and and and and hopefully getting some out of it.

10:40 Sure. You you got five kids, right? I have five children. Yeah. How how do you instill hunger in them? That's gonna be a challenge that I have to face as we go along. That is a great question, man. right now what I do I want to make sure I encourage what their their likes And sometimes it takes a little reverse psychology. You know, my uh I had coaches that did that to me, like, Oh well, if you don't wanna work today, it's fine. You probably Yeah, sit down, you're tired. You're tired, hey.

11:09 Get him get him a boo. He got a boo boo. Sit him you know, sit her down. She's not feeling well today. And you know, sometimes that works, but That will be a continuous uh thing that I have a challenge and that will be their challenge as individuals, you know, finding that hunger. Um for me Yeah, it was uh it was a bit of of motivation, you know, going after

11:30 Um some of those material Things that you want and saying, Okay, chasing that ideal In saying oh If if I just made this I could Take care of your family. Nobody wants to take care of a family.

11:43 You know, to be honest. You know, unless you're a father or a mother. You know, but Taking care of him. They didn't take care of themselves, you know? Let me take care of me, you eventually get to that point where

11:55 tha that'll be something that they'll have a challenge with and and and I'm I I look forward to Trying to help them figure it out. You know, because Yeah, I don't have all the answers and I tell them that. I don't have all the answers. You you answer that question. I've since writing this book really, I've

12:11 Understood that. I mean they have their own room, like the that's a level of understanding that I don't have. And so I try to You know, just be patient with them and and you know what, they teach me quite a bit. So I'm sure that they'll Teach me the way uh of how they need to be fed and and and what type of hunger they want to pursue.

12:34 People called you KG in high school because you wanted to emulate Kevin Garnett so badly. And I I'm curious as to the relationship between emulation of somebody like one of your heroes and at what point does that turn into creation on your own? I think when you emulate so much to where it just becomes a part of you. Um Then

12:57 you you you're doing it without thinking about it, then you're able to put your own sauce on it. You're gonna it's gonna happen anyway because your personality will come out. You know, I never encourage people to just try to copy everything. But copy the things you like. You know, and and put them together and it makes It makes you you.

13:17 Um, because we all have influences if we're lucky. But you know, for me When I saw him just having a face up game. Like that was the thing, the face up game, the mid range jumper. Handling the ball in the full court, the finishing.

13:32 That's what I tried to emulate. You just start Saying, Okay, well I'm left handed, so And I like it here, so since I'm left handed and this is where I am This is how I'm gonna do it now. And you have to take your own data.

13:47 Right? The data that you gather from playing in the games or Being in the boardroom or Doing that speech. You want take The things that work and take the things that don't work. Just because you emulate doesn't mean it's all gonna work.

14:01 Right. So you continue to take things that work and And put your own spin on it. And and and you know I was always confident that, yeah, naturally It would just kind of just show through.

14:14 in my playing'cause the ultimate um you know, pinnacle for me as an athlete was just to go out there and express myself without thinking. You know, that's uh that was the holy grail for me. And so I just wanted to take in all that knowledge, but then

14:28 Come approach each situation with an empty cup and just And just fill it and then just empty it again. And just go through that continuous process. You're a Texas boy. How'd you end up at Georgia Tech? I I wanted to I wanted to play in the A C C.

14:45 I wanted to play in the A C C. Um, to me that was the best league Uh short of the NBA. All of most of my heroes had gone there, it had the storied uh colleges it had tobacco road had the rivalries and I was into um um academics as well. And the coach Paul Hewitt at the time. He was a um

15:07 uh black man, I I felt it was uh necessary to play Uh, for somebody who could understand me a little more and and he did. Um and it was just a natural fit. I had been to Atlanta, had family in Atlanta. been to Stone Mountain Atlanta many times, you know, and and it was a place that was familiar. And so it was like the

15:28 Perfect mix, you know, academics, A C C ball. It just seemed right. And and when I took my visit there, I that was where my heart was. It just felt right and for and I can't tell you why, but for whatever reason I was listening to my gut Way back when I was a teenager. So I'm one of the lucky ones in in in you know I'm

15:48 I made the right decision. When you make decisions off the court, how much of that is would you say is your gut versus reflection and sort of thinking a bit more, slowing down that thinking and thinking through it a bit more. I d I do I do all gut, man. Have you, um is this book I believe is uh by Malcolm, uh called Blink. Yeah.

16:09 And I so related to the idea that You know the answer, said When you're asked a question, if you don't know, you don't know. But if it's like oh where are you gonna go to school, you know. You know.

16:23 Where you feel even if You feel it's like uh No, not that one. What we do is We that's secondary thought.

16:33 The third thought. Justifying Well no, I mean I should go here and Because it is closer to home. That's when we start tricking ourselves, but

16:46 That blink, that minute We know Like Yeah, I'm going here. This is where I feel I you know.

16:55 I I couldn't describe it, but I was in tune with it. You know, even if I didn't know what it was, I had the knowledge of it, so You know, it just seemed natural for me because I wanted to go to the NBA. You've gotta go to the ACC'cause that's where all the talent is. And you've got to play right away.

17:11 And Georgia Tech needs this forward. It's pretty good school, academically sound. You gonna play right away. It just kind of it it just made sense to me. But I I'm You know, I go with all gut, and I say that because Before

17:26 I I educate myself. I take in all the information I can and then eventually you have to make a decision, but yeah, you always go with the gut, man. You know, it's a reason why we have that as humans. And play you did, man. You you ended up fourth overall selection by the Toronto Raptors. Did you know they were gonna take you?

17:46 I knew but I didn't know. I had hunches, I remember meeting scouts and My believe it or not, Miami had the fifth pick. Oh, that's interesting. A lot of people know that'cause they could took D But they were looking at me as well because you know, uh Seven foot kid that can run and jump. Yeah.

18:03 We're gonna look at him. And um They kept telling me, like, Yeah, you won't be there. Uh yeah, we take it, but she won't be there. Just from People I met.

18:12 Uh along the way. And you know, they made the right pick. uh for their franchise, obviously. But yeah, at the time You know, you you wanna know, but then it's so incredible just to even be the fourth pick.

18:26 For me, like okay, yeah, Brian, yeah, sure, he's a Best player and then Mello. Yeah, sure. I mean we play them the They beat the crap out of us. He's pretty good. But to think of yourself as a high In high regard. That's

18:40 That's a different ball game, so I had to get used to that. People think when you're drafted it's over, like you made it. You're you're good, but such a dangerous thought. Talk to me about the difference between college ball and pro ball and The work difference and Man

18:57 It's professional now. Uh before in college You had Class. You had obligations that you had to fulfill to be able to be on that team.

19:09 Well in pro basketball there's nothing else. Everything is dedicated toward that time. And you s and you give more time actually. Um, I thought I was putting in work at Georgia Tech. I and I was, but when you've got buses

19:26 And passports to keep up with And you know, flights to catch And food to eat, you know, and and then, you know, the obligation for being a public uh figure. Those start to come into thing. Your days You know, those late night video game sessions they kinda get

19:46 Ax a little bit'cause you're on the road now. Or You know, you have obligations with your team to do an appearance. You know, it was uh The business changes. Um, and and you're very aware of that. And so for me, yeah, that was the main thing for me, just like

20:02 Getting used to everything and Yeah, when you put that NBA in your chest, it's different when We always had jokes like, Yeah, that popcorn once that popcorn gets to popping, it's a different it's a different show. You know, you when you when you smell that popcorn, it's time for the show. Think about it. Do you smell popcorn like that at at

20:21 High school basketball games kinda, but not really. Popcorn. That is people are here to see the show. So now it's about performance, it's about consistency. And it's about doing your job and and making sure you're helping this team win. And if not There's a problem.

20:37 People will move, people get traded. You know, it's uh it's it's it's a harsh reality out there when you when you get into into the pro levels. And I would imagine if you think you made it at that point, you're not gonna last more than a year or two. Man, I mean, and that's the thing, like I never want young people in that position to feel like oh I made it. And and and it is true, you did.

21:00 Bravo. Excellent, excellent, excellent. Now that you've made it, get to work. Get to work, man.

21:09 I like that. Talk to me about the practices. Like what per s like how how do you relate the difference between basics like To me as an outsider, Tim Duncan was a master of the basics.

21:23 He was just really, really good at the fundamentals. And he made an entire career out of that. That's not to say he wasn't talented at all, but like he just had the foundation. Yeah, the greatest of all time, right? But like how much in practice is it like you're trying to get too cute, too fancy, and you get away from the basics and then you gotta come back to it. You know, that's all about your work ethic and your personal taste and really just how the coaches take it. Eric Spostra. He always had a saying when we were in Miami. Do not get bored with the process.

21:55 Because and and you find and I I think that's a huge part where greatness lies. Because yeah, like you were saying, yeah, the fundamentals Somebody will want to do something fancy, but Let's say you do a in and out between the legs behind the back, step back fade away three. Awesome.

22:14 Somebody passes it to me, I catch, I shoot it. Three. They count the same. There is a mastery to staying within those fundamentals.

22:25 you know, Tim Duncan was known as the big fundamental. Kobe Bryant does not get Enough credit for how fundamentally sound he was, and the most technical of the technicians were Was Michael Jordan. He was the most fundamentally sound player I've ever seen.

22:40 Talk to me about that. Break that down for me. Well, I mean just in in the fact if you ever watch him play, look where he catches the ball, look at his pivot, his footwork. The way he shoots it. The way he keeps the ball in the pocket. Snaps the wrist every time.

22:57 His ball handling. He went air Jordan when it was in the In the air. That's when his fundamentals allow him to get fancy. People saw the fancy parts and it's like, Yeah, that's the last half second. You miss the whole twenty seconds of him just dismantling. somebody with angles and footwork. And it's a reason that he was able

23:18 Um to be so successful. And yeah, I mean You know, that's always like a young uh player's thing and I went through the same thing as a young player, like Nah, you wanna and and I fight this every day myself. You wanna do the fancy stuff, you know, you wanna get right to the fancy. You want people to go ooh and ah. But at the end of the day it's about being successful and about

23:37 Putting the ball in the hoop. That's the object of basketball. fundamentally wouldn't want you want to be as efficient as possible'cause then you have more energy and then it's like okay, yeah, while you guys are tired, now I'll do the fancy stuff. Yeah, it makes it easier. Yeah. Did did social media change the game at all? Like just going back to that last half second, Michael Jordan in the air, that's a shareable clip. Everybody sort of wants that attention, that spotlight. But there's also a whole mental health angle, I would imagine, to being a player and social media It's changed, you know, and there is

24:12 Um there is an aspect to it that I do not understand. I do But then I didn't grow up in it. You know, my experience with social media I remember social media on the desktop.

24:25 Once we got to Miami, that's kind of when the supernova sonic boom happened and then the video and the ability to have the bandwidth to share all these things. That's when those things happen. I was disinterested by then. I wasn't all the way in. I was more Concentrated on my craft, you know?

24:45 It's different now, yeah. Everybody wants that moment, but Do you want to put in the work? That'll be the easiest thing you do. Is to pick up a trophy. Now do you want to go through everything in between that?

24:58 You know, and then once once you're successful Do you think that that's gonna make your life perfect? It will not. So i I I love the discussion around mental health because You don't wanna be in a position where I'd be like, Man, I didn't even really enjoy this ride the whole time. It was just Everybody's happier than me.

25:20 And I'm the one that won. I did all the work and stuff like this, and sure we got the team and we did that, but uh I don't feel Like it's fulfilled me like I thought it would and You know, you have to find those reasons to play the game. Or whatever your game is, you have to find those reasons for yourself.

25:38 I have to ask as a Canadian. You went you were Mr. Canada. You had our entire country. Almost on your shoulders playing for the Raptors. Yeah. And then you broke everyone's heart. You went to Miami, man. What happened? Talk talk to me about that decision. Yeah, you know, it was hard. I tell people it was hard. It was very difficult. And and you know I

25:57 I try to tread lightly around these things'cause a lot of people's feelings are always involved, but I try to tell the truth. I even had people come to me like How could you say that? Like so you don't want me to tell what my experience was? Like, come on. Of course you want to win a championship. Yeah. Of course I wanna win a championship, you know, and and it was right then and there. we had the opportunity to go down to Miami, but that was the main thing. It was always about basketball. I tell people this all the time. I had I have went and s seeked knowledge from

26:27 Guys who have been through this. And had this whole decision to make in I was just on the fence. I didn't know whether I wanted to come or go and The Raptors were doing everything they could. Yeah, they As an organization, they're telling me everything that I want to hear. They're doing everything that

26:43 they feel that would make me happy to to to compete. And It wasn't you know, it wasn't about money. That was the thing that messed me up. Yeah. It wasn't about notoriety. You know, it wasn't about The adoration from fans'cause I

26:59 I ha I've had Guys in the NBA come and visit me in Toronto, and when they see the fan reaction, they look at me and be like, What the hell is going on here, bro? You know, and I tell him, you know, I can't explain it. They love basketball. Thankfully they love me. It's been amazing.

27:16 Um, and I was that guy, but You know, I wanted I wanted to win. I wanted to I told you like Michael and Kobe were my heroes. And I wanted to be able to raise that trophy and my experience in Toronto taught me how hard it is to win in this league. And yeah.

27:34 It's cool being Mr. Basketball in Canada. You know what else isn't cool being Mr. Basketball in Canada and you didn't make the playoffs. You know, and it's like Man, we just kept coming up short and kept coming up short and I just I saw an opportunity and I took it.

27:51 There's this Bill Belichick quote that the Miami super team sort of brings to mind here. And I at one point he answers to a reporter that You know, he's not interested in assembling the most talented team, he's interested in assembling the best team. What's your reaction to that? I mean yes. It's uh it doesn't necessarily mean that yeah, the best team is talented or or or the most talented team is the best, right? Uh, but in our case the best team was the most that was our goal. Well you you lost to the Spurs too, right? So like you guys won twice. We lost the first championship. The first and the last championship that we competed in.

28:32 We lost. So That doesn't guarantee anything. A lot of people You know,'cause it's it's a sexy thing to talk about super teams and You know, people can Point the blame at us for that,'cause yeah, there was

28:46 We did introduce a different way of thinking in free agency. It's just a creative way of winning. Yeah, it's just a creative way of winning and it's always been like that. What am I gonna wait for a trade to happen, a miracle trade and say, Oh, we're gonna win one that's too early nineties, late eighties. You know what I mean? That was a nostalgic idea. The actual

29:10 Realization of business is that, hey. These teams They spend a lot of money. There's a reason that the salary cap parameters are in place. There's rules to this. And at the end of the day

29:24 Do you wanna win or do you wanna go home? That's that's eventually what I came to. And You know, you win it. By any way. A lot of people like look at Yanna, somebody it was interesting. They say yeah, you did it the hard way. And I'm like you know, don't let's not

29:40 Let's not take a crap on every champion before. With all due respect to what those guys did, which has been amazing. Anyway is the hard way. It's just your way of doing it. How did you get it done? And on top of that, nobody picked Milwaukee to win anyway. So that's theirs.

29:57 to enjoy and reflect on. We we we made it happen a totally different way and there's nothing wrong with that, you know? How how hard was it to learn to to blend these three superstars on the same team? Was that instant chemistry or did that take a lot of work? It took a lot of work. Um I think we all came in with the intent of saying like oh yeah, this is how it's gonna go and it was not like that. And that's even in LeBron's shoes, that's even in Dwayne's shoes. You know, um

30:27 We we had to all do different things and we all have to play roles. Leading scorer is a role. Um the second leading score is a role. That doesn't make it easy. Matter of fact, they're gonna

30:40 You know, the first Two people people, you know, point at will be them two if we're not successful. You know, my my thing was to find that gray area And sometimes be magnificent like I can be, but for the most part, bring your work hat. Bring your boots.

30:57 This is what we're doing today. This is the Miami Heatway and this is how we're gonna play basketball, but figuring out how to jail together as a team. Yeah, it was it was difficult, but it always is, you know? There's sacrifices that have to be made. You have to check your ego.

31:14 In one way or another you have to be a leader. To ensure that you guys can be successful. Aside from the objective talent, what what would you say are the subjective factors that set the championship teams that you are a part of apart from the other teams in your career? I I would say the thought From day one.

31:34 Coming in. Say hey, this is you know, the the ethos of the team, the identity of the team and the organization. And I'm not trying to knock. you know, any of the prior organizations before which Toronto is a championship organization, right? We all have to get better.

31:52 But having that that was the main thing that I found like Pat Riley said at best, it's either win winning or misery. coming with that idea from the first day in camp. And then you know. The day to day work.

32:06 Knowing that We need to win, we're gonna win, and this is how we're gonna win. In having that attitude, And even for myself as a leader in Toronto, those were things that I had to learn eventually. You know, setting the tone.

32:20 uh being that person, you know, that that has to lead these uh group of teammates into into something hopefully uh that'll materialize into something. But I saw how The attitude. Just the attitude. In embracing the tough situations.

32:36 If you watch the finals or watch play off basketball, any championship Any in any sport. Any every team goes to a moment where they want to quit. Every time. You know, that is indescribable. Yeah.

32:48 How about not quitting? How about you keep doing your job and matter of fact, let's do it even better. Let's turn it up a notch. When it gets hard. That was the main uh difference that I saw. that was really a a a huge, huge had a huge, profound, you know, impact on me.

33:05 You know, just seeing like okay I've learned to use cliches, right? I you know, used to hate'em, now I love'em. When the tough get going. Going get tough. Boom, there you go. Take that with you. I gave that to you for free. Take eed to that one, man.

33:23 W what do you think makes an effective coach? Being prepared, being ready, um, having a game plan. And being ready to deviate from that game plan whenever if it's not working. There's that fine balance of s sticking with what you said you were gonna do. And just all right, guys, hey, that game plan, throw it out.

33:43 This is what we're doing now. You have to know You know, you kinda have to know in my opinion. Um when to deviate from that. But I but I think overall just someone who Can connect.

33:54 With their team. Can uh communicate. uh effectively with with each member. of the team and that's including uh their staff as well. And that can get everybody on the same page and keep everybody on the same page. I think uh

34:10 You know, that's really what a coach does,'cause at the end of the day, the players are gonna go out there and it's about the players. There's nothing a coach can do. outside of saying the right things to get the right response out of their players. Other than that It's just all preparation and and and you know, thinking ahead.

34:28 Is there a difference in your mind between losing and being beaten? It's all the same to me. It's all the same, a loss is a loss, man. And that's to say You know, I never Hold on for a sec,'cause I I remember this this thing. It was a couple of years ago.

34:47 That uh and I I forget what happened, but It it's sort of like Losing is, you know, you didn't put in the work. getting beaten is like the other team was better than you. And like, yeah, objectively speaking, you're still losing either way. But is there a difference between like, man, if I practiced harder this week, uh we probably wouldn't have lost that or I mean, you said the word already right there. You said we wouldn't have lost. We lost. We are losing.

35:17 And there's nothing wrong with that. I don't want That's to have a negative connotation on the thing. Um, you know, and it it I was brought up in a harsher reality. when I was um, you know, uh being taught the game of basketball. um around extremely competitive people. So there are very extreme

35:35 Competitive. thoughts that I have in myself, but this is how I think. Loss is a loss. You know, but whether it's by one or one hundred, I've You know, one of that makes me think like somebody like would you rather lose like on a last second shot or just like lose by a hundred?

35:54 They said lose by a hundred. I said, Man, I'm losing on a last second shot. That don't even mean you had a shot. If you didn't have a chance, like you won't even want a chance. You know, I'm that person. And yeah, loss is a loss. If you get beat, okay. A loss. Yeah. And that's okay. And that's okay. You got beat. That is a loss, but It's a win column and a loss column. At the end of every game, you either win or you lose.

36:21 You can take whatever you want to, whatever lessons you want to afterwards. But let's not let's keep it. Let's keep apples to apples, oranges to oranges. Loss and wins. Okay. That doesn't mean that doesn't umnecessarily uh uh

36:37 You know, speak to your character. Or speak to your approach. And yeah, if you're not successful if you lose, that doesn't You know, meaning that you can't take away, well, if I would have done those things No, no, how about we do those things this time? And how about we don't lose the game this time? How about we win that jump?

36:56 That's what I love. And then win it. You know, that's the attitude that's required. to be successful in my opinion, to go for the win. And if you don't Alright, I'll be back. If you don't

37:06 I'll be back. You know, until I win. And then when I win, we're gonna keep it going. How do you get out of a losing streak? Like you had five game losing streaks, you Yeah, a little a few that were longer than that. Like I've had ten game losing streaks, dude. So so like talk to me about like what does it feel like to be

37:26 in the midst of that, how do you turn that ship around and how do you How do you go forward? You wanna know one of the main differences and this is gonna be a secret that's gonna go over a lot of people's head. And it's so simple to be like, Ah yeah, whatever, that doesn't work. I'm telling you. Listen to me what I'm about to say. Have you ever watched a game?

37:47 Any game. Baseball, basketball, volleyball, football. And it's that moment where the team that always loses They're winning, right? They're winning the game. And then they get to that point in the game, you said, Up, here we go again.

38:02 Have you ex ever experienced that? Yeah. You watch the Raptors, so you probably watched us go through it a lot. The the the secret is to continue Doing what you're supposed to do. Not worry about not to slouch the shoulders

38:20 Yeah. The team ties it up after you've been up twenty points. It's about the next evolution. It's about moving on to the next play. It's about when you or your teammates make a mistake. When they make a mistake, hey, it's all right, let's get the next one.

38:35 Or or if you make a mistake, not to slouch your shoulders and start feeling sorry for yourself. Nobody likes a pity party. Everybody hates pity parties. Trust me, I tried to throw'em. Nobody came. So

38:49 As opposed to saying Woe is me How about you get back on defense? You know, how about you dive into those fundamentals of what makes a team a team? How do we win this game?

39:02 How can I bring the right attitude? You know, those things alone. Will tremendously turn things around. I'm telling you, man, that that part and every and peop those who know or know will be like, But that part in the game where it's like oh I knew it.

39:19 I knew it. I knew it. Like bro, it's the first quarter. You know, and even if we do lose, so what? How about we just do the things we're supposed to do? Yeah. You're a fan, how about you cheer? And we'll worry about the outcome later.

39:36 But don't look it in the eye and be like oh Oh boy, here we go. And find reasons to escape not trying. D did you watch the uh switching sports here just for a second, but did you watch the Super Bowl where the Patriots came back from twenty eight to three against the Falcons? Yeah, it was incredible. Yeah, and it one of the things that I noticed about that was Brady never looked worried.

39:59 I mean he looked upset, but he didn't look like defeated. Right. He didn't look but you have to play the game, right? Why would you look defeated if the game is not over? Brady's job at that time and every person on that team, their job was to say, All right, hey It's twenty eight three. We suck right now. What do we need to do?

40:20 To change the outcome. That does not uh shouldn't you know, dictate your effort and your mental capacity to be able to be like The game of football, you wanna score a touchdown and you wanna stop the other team.

40:35 Point blank period. So if if you're not into that Then you're doing yourself a disservice. If you're not thinking about that wholeheartedly You're doing yourself a disservice. And it's not his job to come out there be like, Oh well, let's just Oh, they're the best team ever. We're losing. Let's just get out of No. You look at that and say, That's the maniac in the in the in the confident person. Say, Okay, hey.

40:58 We're only down twenty five points, guys. If we get a score And then a stop and then a score. Hey. That's what you need. I'm I'm I'm looking for that person that's gonna find me

41:11 Oh reason That we should win. Yeah. You know, that's what it's about. Not saying You don't need to be looking at the scoreboard anyway,'cause we're getting smashed. So stop looking up there and let's let's get into this game'cause You know, they're still I'm sure they were like, Hey, I'm I I guarantee you one of the things they said, Hey, there's plenty of football left, guys.

41:34 I guarantee you that's one of the motifs that they were working with during that Super Bowl comeback. And then guess what? You you put yourself in a position, you stay down. And you keep going, what did Atlanta do? They stopped. They probably were looking at the scoreboard and said, Please just run out.

41:50 Come on, just run out. No no no. You play the game until it's over. Yeah, I loved his his sort of um the way that he just depri I remember just the camera angle on the sidelines and I'm like he's still in this game. Like he's not he hasn't checked out. Oh yeah. And everybody's looking at you. He's looking at they're looking at the leader, like, What do we do, Tom? Hey, we do this. Hey, we look confident, even if we lose. Back straight, head up. Hey.

42:15 You you lost to a good teammate. You got or you got beat. By a good team. There's no shame in that. You shake their hand. You congratulate them and you move on. But you keep that chest up and you keep that those shoulders back.

42:29 You keep that head up. But never, never, never slouch. I Hate that. Talk to me about coming back the first year in Miami you lost The world championship.

42:41 Talk to me about what that off season was like. I got married um that off season, so it was a lot of planning, of course. That was one of the things that I felt really helped the team. That was like our are kind of peeking our head out after we're all depressed and down and just saying, Okay, hey man

43:00 We had a good time together. Man, that's all right. But it was work. You know, work with a passion. And you're motivated. Motivated. Work with a passion. It's like I'm not losing again. You remember that last drill?

43:12 I kinda drug assed a little bit last time, you know what I mean? But nah, not this time. I'm gladly going into this work ethic, you know, d during this workout. With the enthusiasm. Uh with passion that I need. uh to get going. Uh one of my buddies, um, who's the assistant coach for the Lakers now, he was working me out back then.

43:34 And he told me like I came down the first day we met. I came down and I already had the film. To break down What we were doing wrong in the finals. And I had this move.

43:46 That I wanted to steal from dirt. And I couldn't figure it out. And so I pretty much gave him this task of like okay, yeah, I can't see it, yo. Let me know what you see and we That was our introduction to each other. Breakfast and film.

44:01 Every day getting after it'cause You know, even if I was tired As tired as I was It it couldn't hurt more than losing.

44:13 You know what I mean? So I had to train my body and my mind so When it got hard next time I wouldn't give up. You know, I would continue to push through. And I would get that loose ball, I would get that rebound. I would make that play.

44:28 Instead of thinking. U what if I don't make it? Or thinking about oh U what does this mean? No no no. Just do it because you do it. And it's the game. And I and I, you know, we worked our way up to that. Did you win?

44:43 The next year. Yeah. Is that off season are you as hungry? That's the challenge uh that's the true challenge that I found out. When we won that and I've had people tell me this, yeah, anybody can do it once.

44:55 I said, Oh boy, here we go. Now it's about staying at the top, baby. Anybody yeah, any and I truly do feel that too. And I mean that's no offense to one time champions. There is greatness in that. All I'm saying is there's more greatness in s into sustaining that. How can you sustain it? Can you? Can you? You know, can you do those same drills that you did last pre season at the beginning as a team?

45:22 And not get bored. That You're diving on the floor. Matter of fact, you gotta dive more now. Matter of fact, there's less shots now. There's more of a challenge now because it's harder uh to repeat as a champion'cause everybody knows your best punch.

45:38 Everybody can see you coming and everybody's motivated to be you and your team. You know? That was that was the truth. That's what we wanted. We wanted to be one of the dynasty teams, uh to be mentioned and That was a part of it, and I know I know how I was in my head, but then I would have conversations. I remember I had a conversation, quick conversation with Brian.

45:59 Not too long after the season, you know. You play the season and it's like okay guys, I'll see you in a f you know Two and a half months. I hit up Brian probably less than a month later and he said, Yo, man, I've been working on my game and Yo, you should see this now. And I was working on mine too, but I'm like, Okay.

46:17 Damn, I didn't think okay, yeah, I gotta get back in there, yeah. It was an individual You know, compet competition. uh between the team. We pushed each other uh to be the greatest that we could be as well. You know, there's a mo to that too.

46:31 What does it mean to lead by example to you? And are there any examples that come to mind from your career where you sort of maybe led in a different way. Lead by example. I've truly learned how to lead by example being a father. I thought It was about being early to practice and lifting.

46:49 before practice, getting the shots up, being the first one there and the last one to leave, and there are aspects to that. But I truly, truly understood it. Uh When once I had children. Uh because they're watching every move that I make. And I wanna make sure that I'm making a good move because

47:07 I want to lead by example. I want To treat you nice. On a day that I'm feeling bad. That's like to me, that's leading by example, in the truest form. 'Cause it's not about me.

47:19 You know, it's not about how I feel particularly at that time. It's about Our team. It's about our family. It's about how you see me and and your experience in this day.

47:32 And just because I'm having a bad day doesn't mean I get to take it out on you. And I always say that any you know, I always have the big saying like no, this household is a sanctuary. Uh we could we should be able to let the wall down when we cross these doors. And we're on the same team, so let's watch how we talk to each other. Let's watch how we treat each other. And I truly did understand that.

47:54 Uh once I became a parent for the Fifth time. You know, getting these boys and girls to be on the same page and go after this one goal, which is just daily happiness. You know, that's uh That's something I take with me and You can do hard things just'cause they hard, right? But

48:12 No, do the hard things when they're hard. Like yeah, I'm tired. And I worked all day and I don't feel like doing anything else, but if my boys and girls ask me, Hey Dad, let's go for a hike. Uh.

48:27 Well, you said to lead by example. You said we gotta walk outside every day. Ah Let's go. And and and to me that's uh that's with leading by example. Where do you think confidence comes from? Man, that's a good question. I don't know, man. 'Cause I can't tell you what gave me my confidence.

48:48 And I and and the crazy part is, right, I can tell you what what took my confidence away. I think we can all talk about that, right? the things that took it away, but You know, for me Confidence is it it it comes through putting work in. It comes through working on your craft. It comes through I'm I'm coming into this test confident.

49:09 Because I busted my butt and I studied all week. I put the work in. And now I'm here, I'm confident. Now doesn't mean I'm just like oh yeah, I'm gonna pass test. That's why the in the book I try to like that's ego without studying. Yeah, that's the ego talking. Confidence is like no.

49:27 C to me confidence comes from work. You know, putting the work in you know, attaining that goal. So I put in thousands of shots. Thousands of dribbling drills, thousands of hours.

49:39 So When I step on the court. I am confident. That I can do this task. That I've been assigned.

49:47 You mentioned the m training yourself mentally. Wha what does that involve and how important is the mental aspect? I mean it's everything to me. Um to me and then there's you know, it's a totally different thing. But you have to be strong mentally to get to where you want to go. There will be obstacles, unforeseen obstacles, as a matter of fact, that you don't see coming.

50:08 And you have to be prepared for that. And You know, you're gonna take a few punches. I I'm not going to sugarcoat that. Um, especially if you want to do um something great, you know, so being able to continue to do that job, to continue to stay with the fundamentals, even when you feel like you should be doing more.

50:28 Or To get your body out of bed when you don't feel like it. Those days when you don't feel like it. That's where the magic happens. And Kobe told me this. Like, yo, you gotta get in That day where you don't wanna go in the gym, you gotta go.

50:43 You have to. Because the one of the things that helped me was to think like okay, how many people are stopping now? How many people felt what I'm feeling? Right now. Nobody's looking.

50:56 Nobody cares. Am I going to that gym or not? And you gotta continue to do Um your job. Do those things that you said you were gonna do. to help you get there. Or if you have a mentor

51:10 tr have the trust and to say, okay, I'm gonna do those things that you said you wanted me to do to be able uh for me to to accomplish my goal. I like that. W what are some of the lessons you learned from playing with LeBron James?

51:25 Just being able to watch him just enjoy himself being the best player in the world for years and years and years. To find that joy in the game. to to have that confidence in what you're doing. But most of all to work hard, to put the work in. Um any time that I thought that I was putting the work in, him and Dwayne and Ray

51:45 They were always my reason to do more. And just their skill level and talent level and handling it with the grace that they've handled it with. You know, there's a reason that People are successful. And people

51:59 you know, continue to to be successful. I was able to see up close for four years. uh what that takes. And I'm not talking about off the court. That's a whole other monster. I'm just talking about in your craft.

52:13 uh playing the game Loving the game but working extremely hard at it. Putting the time uh into your body uh weight room routine, what you eat, how you act, how you move.

52:27 But most of all when it's time to play You play the game, you know, LeBron plays the game with joy. You know, I've never seen so much joy. uh being experienced. by an individual, he he definitely brings that to the game, and so I try to

52:44 Make sure I brought that to Say Oh man, man, he really loves playing this game and this is just a great thing to watch. Let me make sure, you know. Make sure I'm enjoying it too. Am I enjoying it today? Yeah, yeah, even if it's a grindy day, you know, it's those days but

53:01 At the end of the day. You have to be doing something to to to where you enjoy it. That s that stands to me as like stark contrast to sort of The Last Dance and Michael Jordan, who had that beautiful sort of quote on leadership, right? So he's like, So I push people when they didn't want to be pushed. So I made people work harder than they wanted to work. But you know what?

53:22 That's what it meant to play on this team and I set the fire and Kobe was very much so like that as well. He He and and you know, that's no knock up against those guys. They played the game a certain way. You know, I don't know what it was like. To play with Jordan, but I know what it was like to play with Brian. I don't know who had most cameras. I don't think it matters.

53:45 But to play on that team. That is on the balance beam. of the NBA. Kobe got five. And sh Brian got four. Exactly. I know how hard it is to win one.

53:59 Not even two, just one. Six. As as the player to lead the charge. I mean that's uh and then two three peats I've had my, you know, uh experience trying to three peat.

54:13 It's damn near impossible, man. You know, we got the four finals in a row and we had the shot, but Boy, the Spurs were pretty darn good that year. They were a motivated bunch of guys. And they played their asses off.

54:27 You know, and we just didn't have it. We got all the way to the finals. to understand that we weren't the best team. And that sucks. looking at that, there's only so much that people can understand. He did a great job in telling the story, but

54:42 Those who know Which I'm blessed to be in that. thing to know that I don't know? It's it's like some other Bro, that's another mental landscape, bro. Three P

54:55 It's something else, dude. Unfathomable. I remember your your playing career was and you didn't know your last shot. There was no farewell tour. Yeah. You know, it ended in a doctor's office just saying you can't play and not because you you couldn't physically play, you might die if you play.

55:13 Right. And and is there a message to everybody that you have about that?'Cause it strikes me that we have the same thing in life, too. You don't know when your last hug is. You don't know when the last time you ever talk to your parents is I think Make sure you talk to your parents. Make sure you do that. Give that hug.

55:31 And not in a sense to where it's gotta be like this might be the last time ever, bro. Come in No Just do it'cause it really might be the last time. I really did play my gap last game and didn't know it. So thank goodness I was just in a mode to where

55:49 This was my practice. To say what's up. to the popcorn guy when I'm coming out. to give the high five to a janitor. To help the young fella

56:01 With their game. When it was time. to go through my routine to better myself and my game to listen to my coach. execute the game plan and be the best leader that I could be. 'Cause one day it was over.

56:15 So, yeah, I mean Yeah, well. Hey, yeah, call call that person. Yo, I just wanted yeah, I just wanted to call you'cause I want to call you. Hear your voice. Yo, you good? Okay, yeah. It don't have to be long. It doesn't have to be Win one for the Gipper status all day. But it does have to be a part of the process, right?

56:33 It does have to be, hey, just call and check on you. Hey, give me a hug. Come on. Uh even with my kids. Hug them every day, you know, and you know boys. I have three boys, they're in that moment like Ah, ah, ah Like No, give me a hug. We hug each other. I see My good friend that I haven't seen in years, I give him a hug. Tight one.

56:52 You know,'cause yeah, you never know. I mean I didn't know Um, that I would play my last game. I didn't know when I had dinner with Kobe in September that that would be it. But you know what I do know? We talked about film. We talked about dreams.

57:07 We talked about writing. We talked about bettering ourselves and getting to that next level. in our lifetime because he was one of the only people in the world that could understand what I was going through. You know, so just be fully present and just take it all in. Put the phone down.

57:24 For a few minutes, you know, nothing crazy. Just take that moment in. Just you know, just take it all in,'cause you never know if that'll be it. And and and in a sense that made it perfect for me. Um, I didn't have a fair world tour. It probably wouldn't have been cool anyway to see a seven foot dude shooting threes like oh yeah, you know, oh okay, Chris. You know, at least

57:46 Uh it was just a normal regular day at the office. And Nobody knew it. And and to me That is perfect because that's the reality of what I was facing at that time. I I try to end the interview with sort of a legacy question. How do you how do you want to be remembered when you're ninety five and you're

58:07 You know, what do you want people to say about you? You know, great father. Uh family man. Uh man of his word. Uh but most importantly

58:16 You know that he wasn't afraid to try. You know, basketball is only the uh First act for me. And that's kinda like a lot of people see me say, Why are you gonna be in a front office? Are you gonna coach? Like you should coach. And and and maybe one day, maybe one day. I I don't

58:34 I have not closed the chapter on basketball. at all. You know, it'll always be a part of my life. I love the game. My challenge is to just dive into those other things that Complete me as a person. Um, I have goals in my mind that I wanna do. Being an author is one of'em. Damn, I didn't even think it'd be that quick.

58:54 But I wanna be a multi faceted seen as a multi faceted person who You know, was able to put out great content, great art. But most importantly, the person That I am and hopefully the people that I helped and and helped inspire, you know.

59:10 That'll be the message that transcends me. So It's not about me so much as it is about the message as as it is about Going after your dreams and trying to accomplish them. You know, that's uh

59:24 That's what I think is most important. I'm kinda just Just in the weeds, just trying to, you know. continue to uplift the message, and the message is bigger than me. There will be many other dreams. by individuals hopefully lived out in this

59:40 Hopefully infinite lifetime. And after I'm gone, maybe even the boss name lives on, maybe, who knows, you know what I mean? But uh more so for those who that do remember They'll remember If they think of me, yo, let me help this person out.

59:57 Let me make sure this person has a good day. Or or or hey, how are you today? Let me do this extra tutoring session so that I can get better at my craft. Let me pick my teammate up'cause they just had a shitty day. I've watched the whole thing. Hopefully that's

1:00:15 the thing that people do if they think of me, or when they think of me when I'm gone. Beautiful. Thank you so much, man. This was an amazing conversation. Yeah, no, I appreciate you, man. I appreciate it, dude. The Knowledge Project is produced by the team at Furnham Street. I'd love to get your advice on how to make this the most valuable podcast you listen to.

1:00:43 Email me at shane at fs.blog. You can learn more about the show and find past episodes at fs.blog slash podcast. To get a transcript of this episode, go to fs.blog slash tribe or check out the show notes. Can you do me a small favor? Go online right now and share this episode with one friend who you think would love it.

1:01:02 Thanks for listening and learning with us. Till next time.

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