#197 Michaeleen Doucleff: The 4 Biggest Mistakes Parents Make

0:00 I spent twelve years at MPR covering mostly viruses and they would send me around the world. What was really surprising to me and why I went on this journey to like learn this other way of parenting was when I came back to San Francisco and I tried some of these techniques and methods. They worked like amazing on my little girl. So what are some of these tips? I mean you summed it up with an acronym of TEAM. Yes. What is TEM and like Like let's make them practical for people. So the first thing T is like this idea of like A lot of the Western relationship, parent child relationship is based on control. The E is a different way. E is And the next one is autonomy. Yeah, this one's huge. If you could just change like one thing in your child's life, it that would be

0:42 M, I guess. We've sort of talked about this a little bit. Yeah. The M is like So praising is a really interesting topic that's very unique in Western society. In my entire travels, I've never seen a parent praise a child. Like it's not necessary. Okay, we do video games, it's like seven, eight. Today you have your homework done. I would cut out every day. Oh, I can't, yeah, no. But they don't need it. I don't.

1:07 I don't well You know If Parents are listening to this and they have a sixteen year old addicted to their phone. Yeah. What are the tangible things they can do in the next one month to sort of like help So here's how it works. Welcome to the Knowledge Project, a biweekly podcast exploring the powerful ideas, practical insights, and mental models of others.

1:43 In a world where knowledge is power, this podcast is your toolkit for mastering the best what other people have already figured out. I'm your host. Shane Parish. Before we dive in, I have a quick favor to ask. If you're enjoying the show and listening on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or another platform, please take a moment and hit the follow button. The more followers we have, the better guests we can bring on to share their knowledge with you.

2:05 If you want to take your learning to the next level, consider joining the membership program at fs.blog slash membership. As a member, you'll get my personal reflections at the end of every episode, early access to episodes, no ads, exclusive content, hand edited transcripts, and so much more. Check out the show notes for a link. Today my guest is Michaeline Duklef, author of Hunt Gather Parent and a global explorer of parenting practices. Her work takes us on a journey across cultures, revealing profound insights that challenge our Modern assumptions, I guess, about raising children.

2:38 At the heart of her discoveries lies the acronym TEAM. Together, encourage autonomy and minimal intervention. These four principles draw from the wisdom of indigenous communities around the world, offering a roadmap for fostering resilience, independence, and emotional well being in our children. She shares her observations on how different cultures approach parenting and how their practices can help alleviate the burdens we place on ourselves and our children. We also explore the role of technology in modern parenting and its impact on our children's development. She offers practical strategies for navigating this digital landscape and fostering meaningful connections within our families. It's surprising how often we give our kids orders.

3:18 Do this. Don't do that. And in this conversation you'll learn a better approach that encourages critical thinking, empathy, and problem solving skills that works on toddlers and teens. I tried to make this episode as practical as possible, so while we learn insights from other cultures, how do we put them into practice in our culture? Michaeline shares insights on how we can create an environment that allows our children to take appropriate risks, learn from their mistakes, and grow into confident, capable individuals in a world that sometimes pushes back. Listening to this episode will give you another perspective on parenting that draws from the collective wisdom of cultures around the world.

3:55 As with anything, take what works and ignore the rest. It's time. To listen. And learn. I want to start with our parenting.

4:14 Have we collectively lost our way as parents? Western society has kind of veered off the path. You know, and kinda gone into this valley. of strange parenting valley where we've kind of yeah, we've kind of lost sight of like what kids actually need. What the parent child relationship actually needs.

4:33 To really function. What's different? So there's so many things that are different. One anthropologist said that there's about Forty to fifty things that we do. as parents that you can't really find anywhere else except in places that have westernized. And then there's like four or five things that we are really missing.

4:51 It. Are really key to Raising a child That you enjoy being with, raising a child that's helpful and respectful and confident. I mean, that's really if you look at our data, right? In Western society we have this epidemic of children who are anxious.

5:09 who have kind of lost confidence And then For sure we have children that like we struggle to get them to help. Right, and be helpful around the house and kind of work together as a team. And and so there's a couple of things that we're not doing that really support that.

5:24 How did we get here? It's a it's a big question. But it dates back to like Probably the fifteen hundreds in Europe. Um it actually one Scientist thinks and has this whole theory and book about how it dates back to the Catholic Church.

5:40 Um we could talk about that. But in general what's happened is we've We've lost the parenting teachers. That's I think a really key aspect of it. That traditionally You have a child often

5:53 very young, you know, in your twenties. And your parents or aunts or neighbor would teach you how to raise that baby. And then by the time you have your second or third baby, you kind of know, right? But now, like me, when I had my daughter basically handed me this baby. sent me home and it was like

6:12 Me by myself. Good luck. Good luck. Exactly. They they you know, my husband always says like we took all these Birthing classes. But he was like, Why didn't we take all these parenting classes? Like, now what do we do? Now that it's you know Um so that I think around Seventeen hundreds is then when that really started to get going, losing this kind of

6:30 The teachers And then Parents started turning to the medical industry and parenting experts, and you can see the progression of like, what do we do? We don't really know what to do. And so we're h parents are hungry for these pant. They were pamphlets basically from orphanages that doctors had made just to like say how like how do you raise like Forty kids, right? And they turned into these like parenting manuals and books that

6:56 were very popular because parents stopped really knowing What to do. Parenting books today you can trace all the way back to those pamphlets. It's really incredible. And of course they weren't the way you raise children in a home. you know, in a family, they were for these

7:11 institutions basically. I think I remember listening to one of your interviews and you mentioned like the number one sleep book is by some dude in the eighteen hundreds who didn't even have kids. Yeah, he was like a sports writer and he wrote about golf, I think and He was also super into guns and he actually like blew his hand off and stuff and he like I think he saw like there was like this market. For parenting advice and he wrote, yeah, like he was one of the first ones to really write about sleep training, which is totally crazy, like around the world, like leaving a baby.

7:42 to cry and it it's a very Unequ style and he was kind of one of the first people to suggest it and recommend it. Can we come back to like the Catholic Church and and sort of like we're not taught how to be parents anymore? Is that a byproduct of like All of us working more and living in a busier society, or is it The theory is and

8:04 It's it's really fascinating was that Before the fifteen hundreds, the People in Europe lived like people everywhere in the world in these big kind of Clans or group.

8:14 groups of like family, like big, and not like all one house, but kind of in the same neighborhood. And it was um Yeah, we was like communal living, right? And this is this is how Ch children were raised for hundreds uh thousands of years in these kind of big groups. And there's a lot of data to support that. And that's how

8:33 Europeans. We're doing it. And then the Catholic Church came along about the fifteen hundreds and started having these laws. To prevent Close cousins from marrying and having children, which is totally legitimate, like biologically. You don't want to marry your first cousin and have a child.

8:50 But over time they started extending it out to like second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth cousins. I mean you and I are sixth cousins, right? But we're not related at all. And It's it's Whether this was intentional or not, what it did was it broke up this like big uh family living. Yeah, right, because like you couldn't marry any more into these groups and it really like

9:10 took intergenerational living and squashed it down slowly and slowly to what we now think of as like the nuclear family. So you go from living in an environment where You know, as a mom I would have Clearly an older sibling, I'd have an aunt, an uncle, I'd have a cousin, I'd have this all these people that are like helping me. And I would be watching as I grew up. Other children being raised.

9:34 Right, that's a big element too, right? Like by the time I was sixteen, I probably had seen like five children get raised from somebody in this big group, right? So that's I mean, if you look around the world, that's how people learn to parent. That's how this Skill. The craft is like passed down. Through watching and then when you have your own

9:52 Teaching But if you live if you squash down the family into like Mother and father only. And you're right, one parent is out of the home a lot, or two parents are out of the home. Then you've

10:05 No longer have You never l no longer watch people being raised. Maybe you get one kid, one sibling, right? And then you don't have any helpers. And this Professor at Harvard has like tracked down the the rise of the nuclear family. correlates with how long ago the Catholic Church was

10:24 Uh uh brought into a society. And so Europe is the longest, and you you see this very strong nuclear family, and then other parts of the world, you know, it's been introduced. More recently and you still see, you know, intergenerational living and these big family units. But it's not the only. factor, I think. Lots of other things have come about to kind of support the creation of the nuclear family. And um

10:49 The reduction of The people in our lives raising children. And we have this saying, right? Like it takes a village to raise kids, but it sounds like we don't actually create the village anymore. That's right. And y and it's funny because I always say like it doesn't take a village. It takes like five extra people. Like, you know, because if you look

11:08 In some societies so they're called aloe parents. This is what um scientists call them. They're people in children's lives that Ar just is close to the child and just as important to the child as the mother and the father. Do they their other parents, basically. And if you look In most societies.

11:24 Children have like Four or five of these. very close. In some societies they have like twelve or fifteen, but they're not very close. But there's amazing studies in some societies where like A babe they'll track like how many times a baby is

11:38 passed around to a different person in like an hour or two hours and it's like something ex like ten or eleven people in like an hour, like just regularly. Think about that, like when you had your kids, like If you had ten people like constantly helping you hold the baby, feed the baby, like how much different your life would have been. I'd have a lot more kids. Right? You know?

12:05 Günstig ohne App. Bei Aldi gibt es einen Preis für alle. Diese Woche der große Bauer Fruchtjogurt. 250 Gramm. Für nur 39 Cent. Oder Gerolsteiner Mineralwasser. 1,5 Liter für nur 79 Cent zuzüglich Pfand. Entdecke weitere Angebote in deinem Aldi Nord. Aldi Gutes für alle. W when I was travelling with Rosie

12:28 Um my l my little girl, we were in Tanzania, and we were with these women. Raising they had the little ones, the babies and the toddlers'cause the other ones were at school. And They would it was a group of like six women and they would spend all day long together.

12:44 helping each other with the bab the toddlers and the babies like all day long. I'm talking like ten, twelve hours a day. It was Amazing, right? From the standpoint of like social support, right? And then I I got back home. And it was just me, like

12:59 In this condo with a kid. Yeah, it was It was the difference was so stark. S so before we sort of cover how we undo all of this. Like what did you learn? You traveled around the world, you found four different tribes that

13:13 All taught in a in a sort of different way. What are the key lessons that came out of that? Why is that important? I'm a reporter. And I spent thirteen, twelve years at NPR. Covering

13:26 mostly viruses and they would send me around the world and I started to notice While I was travelling that Parents didn't seem to have the same struggles as we did. You know, there were clearly struggles. There's struggles everywhere. I don't want to romanticize it. But what was really surprising to me and why I went on this journey to like learn this other way of parenting was When I came back to San Francisco and I tried some of these

13:50 techniques and methods because that's really what they are. Um They worked like amazing on my little girl in Urban San Francisco, like it's surprising It it really surprised me how quickly our relationship improved. She was like two at the time when I really started to

14:06 Try this. So what are some of these tips? I mean you summed it up with an acronym of TEAM. Yes. Um but let's make them pro what is TEAM and like let's make them practical for people. So the first thing T is like this idea of like together that humans, Homo sapiens are these incredibly social creatures. We that's what separates us from like other homo species is that we are social. And not only that we want to be with people, we want to help People. And children are born wanting to help. Everyone knows this in our society.

14:37 And so the first thing is really is let your children help you. Even when they can't do it. Right. So we have this there's there's studies that show this, like American parents Or ask this question of like you're doing the laundry and your little two year old comes over and starts throwing the clothes like all over the place. Like, what do you do?

14:57 And the the American mom says something the European American mom says something like I get mad'cause she's making a mess and I tell her to go play. Right? Or I tell her to go watch cartoons, right? And then they asked the same question to a my mom.

15:10 And my mom says something like, I get kind of mad because she's making a mess, right? Starts off kind of similar, and then she says, But I'm really excited that she wants to help with the laundry. And so the Maya mom sees the little toddler's mess. as this like sign of interest in helping. Right, it's a very different view of the child, right? It's a very pro social view. And then she says, So I start teaching her how to do the laundry.

15:35 And one of the moms even says that the the little girl's like ball like sometimes balls up the laundry and she says, I can see she's trying to fold it. Right, where's where I would just say she's bawling up the laundry and making a ball, right? This you know, the the other view is that she wants to help. We are these social creatures. And we

15:53 We have this huge desire to help. Starting off just from really from day one in many many parts of the world. Parents immediately Say yes, come help.

16:05 And keep the child there and have the child at least watch or give the child a very small task to do. And so that's really the T. Never turn down a child's request to help. Like when I was getting ready for this podcast, like Rosie wanted to do my hair, she wanted to do my makeup, and it was like Yes. My job as a parent I see is to find a way that she can actually help.

16:27 And then my families have some saying about it. Like it's Your job to find The purpose in the child's life. To find the opportunities for the child to have purpose. Don't push them away, because if you keep pushing them away. By the time they're

16:41 seven or eight and they actually can start kind of helping They're not stupid. They're like that's not my job. You know, like you've pushed me away for six years. Why would I help you now? You know? And they and there's data that show that that's kinda what happens. That kids They learn their place.

16:58 In the home. Is my place Playing and Watching video game uh playing video games, watching TV is my place like Helping with dinner, helping with the laundry, helping And unlearning that is hard. I I I don't think it's as hard as we think it is.

17:12 But again, I think you have to change your view of the child. Right. You have to instead of just saying, Oh, he doesn't want to help. He never helps. He's never gonna help. Don't ask. Right. Can you imagine, right? If Sony said that at work. Don't ask him. He's never he's no good at this. Like how bad that would make you feel, right? So it's like actually starting to see

17:32 There's a little flame inside the child. that actually really does want to help, I think you can turn it around. Oh let's uh E for increasing. Oh E. Yes. So E is this idea that like A lot of the Western relationship parent child relationship is based on control. That the parent tells the child what to do and they're supposed to listen because They're the child. And you're the authority. And you're the authority. Right. And that's kind of just said. But E is a different way. E is

17:59 We're gonna encourage children. To do the right thing and And really we're gonna get them To figure out what the right thing is. Themselves.

18:09 And every time you try to control a child, you create conflict. Risk. Creating conflict. Because either the child's gonna get mad because They don't want to be told what to do.

18:19 Or you're gonna get mad'cause they're not doing it, right? And so another way of doing it is like okay I'm gonna guide you, I'm gonna encourage you to do the right thing. And you know what? It's okay if like nine Sometimes you don't.

18:32 Because this is a long game. But I'm gonna use all these tools I have in my toolbox to get you To learn to figure out what the right thing is, to learn to to think. When I went travelling I

18:44 I knew there were like tools that cultures use to get children to figure things out and Instead of just telling them what to do. Um but I I had no clue how many there were. There's so many. It's amazing. And they're very subtle, but they can really change like the whole dynamic between the parent and the child. What the E does, the encouragement, is it gets the child to feel like I'm making decisions for myself. I'm in charge of my life.

19:08 You know, my mom has confidence that I can do it. And so there's this this ease that starts to happen with with the parent and the child. So what are those tools? So one of the the amazing tools with smaller children is stories. Like we are there's good evidence that humans are really made to learn through story. And when we were actually with the Hadzabe, this hunter gatherer community in in Tanzania, they were using stories to teach me. The rules.

19:34 So when we got to the camp, they didn't just list off you know, very like American be like, here are the rules and like you know like this is what you can do and you can't do No, around the fire they would tell these stories. And um Some of them were about where you went to the bathroom and they would say things like this isn't about you, though. Like this about clearly about me. No, are they They sang songs that had stories in them for children.

19:58 Um So this is a way of like Putting the ideas into the child's mind in a way that One they can really understand. 'Cause they don't

20:06 L young children don't understand logic. But also like a way of like again they're gonna figure it out through these stories. So that's a huge one for younger children. As a Even for your children, there's all these ways of like Asking questions.

20:19 Telling them consequences, kind of these little puzzles that you set up for them. Another big one is the environment, like just setting up the environment so They can't. get themselves in trouble. Or they're less likely to.

20:33 Right, the I mean the list goes on and on. I mean there's some beautiful examples like When we were up in the Arctic, Rosie was kind of like throwing these rocks up in the air like this, and the little nine year old Rosie was three at the time and the little nine year old comes over and says, You're gonna hurt somebody with those rocks. And Rosie kind of sat there and like looked. And then drop the rocks.

20:53 And the nine year old walked away. Like it wasn't uh No, it's and and that's what the parents do. It's like I mean I think if Rosie was throwing rocks at kids, like then like it would be different. But it's like if you really stop and look at most of the situations, you don't need And one of the stories that will probably resonate with people you told in the book is How uh Rosie was keeping the fridge door open.

21:14 Yes. So When I when I first traveled up to the Arctic, the moms would tell me these stories, like to get kids to wear their hats. In the winter, because they would get frostbite on their ears and they would tell them that like if they didn't, like that their heads would get chopped off and they that the northern lights would use their heads as soccer balls. All these very kind of scary stories. And I was like, No, I'm never doing that. And that's one of the things readers write into me about. Like one of the things they're like, I could never do this, you know? And then when I got back, Rosie had the Refrigerator door open and I was sitting there.

21:46 Close the refrigerator door, close you know, just kind of nagging her, which is the big tool we use, right? Over and over again. And then I was like trying logic, you know, the electricity, da. And I was very frustrated with her. And then I turned to her and I said, there's a monster in that refrigerator. And he when he warms up, he's coming, oh my gosh, she's coming out. And I kind of made it very dramatic and kind of fun. And like these stories are often kind of a wink and eye, like the kid kinda knows it's a story. And she like slammed the refrigerator door and was like looked at me and she was like Tell me more, Mama. Tell me more about this monster. And it

22:21 She was I think three and three and a half at the time. Three. And um It like changed our whole relationship. We just started using stories for everything.

22:31 'Cause the way we could communicate like with her. Like we weren't communicating with her. Otherwise. Oh, we had s we had so many stories and like When she's now she's eight and like Around six or seven she kinda knew the stories were were fake and she kinda didn't want to hear'em for a while and then she wanted to again. Like it was like

22:49 Because Even as an adult, you like stories. I mean we still use stories as a society, right? We absolutely we use them as warnings, we use them as fairy tales, we use them as I mean we use them as entertainment. Right? Like one of the scientist I talked to,'cause again, parents are very

23:05 Like I was, like this is too scary, you know. Um But then one of the scientists I was talking to said, Yeah, but look at a Disney movie. Like it's way scarier, like, you know, than you know,'cause also I'm I'm there. I can see the point is not to scare her to death. It's to communicate. Panting is about transmitting values. Is there a difference between encouraging and sort of praising? Cause we seem really good at praising kids. Wow you picked the green pen, like you're amazing. My child's a genius, you know? So praising is a really interesting topic that's Very unique in Western society. You don't

23:42 In my entire travels, I've never seen a parent phrase a child. I guess not necessary. Is it more subtle or they just don't do it at all? I think that there is some This more subtle. If you think the parents not doing anything, but then you look and there is like these subtle signals that are happening, which also speaks to the fact that we could be a lot more subtle with children, you know? Like a smile or Yeah, or like a

24:04 A pat on the shoulder or When one of the moms said I would I would hug the child, you know, to thank them. But praise really just came about in the last like thirty years. Like I'm 47 and like my mom was really into praise and my dad wasn't. So I'm kind of right at the generation where the praise kind of and there's this whole backstory to it about why. It happened. Um but praise is a tricky beast. Praise can

24:28 m motivate children, but it can also demotivate. It's like depends on How it's done, what context it is, this the child Does the praise actually kind of fit with what you're doing? And I mean, it's it we have this sense that all praise is good and it's not. I tell parents, like, You can just stop. Before we get to autonomy, let's double click on that. What what's the difference between good praise and bad praise? And I mean, I don't think psychologists know.

24:54 And I think that's one of the problems. I think this over the top praise that you're talking about, I don't think Kids know it's fake. And in some ways it's manipulative. I think the problem is we don't know. We don't know how much praise helps kids because it's an experiment. It's brand new. How how do we get

25:10 In this experiment. eighties there was this whole push from the California government There was this idea that like The reason why kids Started to use drugs and

25:24 misbehave is because they had poor self esteem. І неп к' Was to have was to praise them, have that gives them good self esteem, but there was the data don't support it at all. There was no data. It's just again like these myths that kind of bubble up. But you don't need you don't need to do it. I mean I think I come from a privileged position in the sense that like I've seen many, many families not praise children in like The kids are like amazing and have enormous amounts of confidence and self esteem. So it's like it's just not required.

25:55 I think what's More important, and what motivates kids, and there's a lot of data to support this, what motivates kids is having them actually. contribute to your life. You know, having them be part of your life and Contribute in it.

26:13 I mean you know as a person who works that You feel good and motivated when you help and you do something and you accomplish something and that I mean, there's tons of data in psychology to support that's what motivates kids, not when somebody Goes on and on about

26:30 Oh my God, amazing. Um, so just to orient us where we are, you have the acronym team togetherness, and we've talked about encouraging. And the next one is autonomy. Yeah, this one's huge. If you could just change like one thing in your child's life, it that would be To give them two hours an hour a week of autonomy. If you look at hunter-gatherer communities around the world, so you know, um humans spent 200,000 years as hunter-gatherers. That's where our brains evolved, that's where our We evolved, right, in this context.

27:00 And so looking at hunter gatherer communities around the world offers some clues kind of to how the condition in which we involved in. It doesn't say it exactly, but kind of gives you some clues. And if you look in all lots of different continents. Children have enormous amounts of autonomy in these communities, which implies that's how Yeah.

27:21 The child evolved, right? The child's brain We used to have a lot of autonomy. I mean, I was walking to school at seven. I was walking like two kilometers almost. Exactly. Like it wasn't that long ago in Western society that we had it. The evolutionary stem Perspective kind of says it like we need it. You know, and then there's this data that shows that kids that don't have it are more anxious, more prone to depression, like so and there's just tons of data that's like We need autonomy. Children need autonomy.

27:47 But I think parents Don't know what it looks like. So what does autonomy look like? The best way to figure it out. Is to

27:55 Put your stockwatch on. where you're when you're with with a child in the morning, at at the grocery store just somewhere and give No commands to the child, no verbal instruction to the child for twenty minutes. And see if you can do it. I mean, because s scientists have done this.

28:12 analysis. I did this analysis like in different communities and like In places where children have autonomy, parents give children like two to three Verbal Inputs. In an hour.

28:24 And I've done it on myself, I've done it with parents in San Francisco, and we are talking about like a hundred and twenty Verbal inputs per hour, just a constant stream. Do this, do the Don't do this. Say this, say thank you. Like I mean You can just you can see it. Like it's just a constant praise. 'Cause it is a form of like kind of manipulating their behavior, right? Which creates a power struggle in some ways. Oh, can create for some ch some children are fine some children appear fine with it, right? They just kind of

28:51 go I call them like turtles. They kinda go down into a little shell and kind of okay, you know. And some children it's horrible. When when I was writing the book and Rosie and I's relationship was really changing If we were in a hard time and we were arguing a lot, I would do this. I put my sout watch on and or my phone and I would say, Okay, I'm gonna be quiet. I'm not gonna g I can give her Physical.

29:11 Physical input, right? Wh like you're talking about more subtle? Like some eye movement and some I can move her, you know, if she's doing something bad, I can take something, right? I can do physical things, but I can't no talking to her. And it was Amazing chain, like how Quickly that improves.

29:31 our relationship. What can I do? I have two teenagers prior to encourage. Like what does that look like? Well it depends on where they're at, how much they're already doing on their own. Well, I used to like send them to grocery stores on their own when they were like seven and eight. Yeah. And you know I I got a lot of pushback for that. From society. Yes, yes. I used to let them walk to school and I get a lot of pushback from society. One one aside from this, it's so cute. Um

29:58 My youngest came home one day. And I had asked him to get a red pepper and he got a green pepper. And I was like, Well, go back to the store. And he was like, I think eight or nine at the time. And he goes back to the store and then he comes home. And I was like, Well, what was the difference in price? And he's like, Huh? And I was like, What did you do? He's like, I put the green pepper on the shelf and I took the red pepper. Because why would it be any different? It's like I paid for it the first time. Exactly why. It's a funny story. It seems like society, I guess, is has Uh

30:31 Maybe it's just my feeling, I guess. But like it's push back on those things. Oh It's not just your feeling. There's huge data on this. And one David Lancy, one of the anthropologists that I cite a lot in the book. Calls it like the shrink shrink wrapping of kid children. Where we're just so afraid of their safety. I'm not afraid of their safety as much as afraid of other parents and like the police showing up at my door and like taking away my kids because I sent them on an errand, you know? Like society as a whole is afraid of their safety. And there are parents that are. Like I think we're kind of

31:06 probably in the minority right now. But like so Rosie's eight. She started going to the store. We live in that right now, a six thousand person town. You know, America I don't know about Canada, but I bet it's the same as the safest it's ever been. Like Than when we were kids. And um she got she's gotten pulled over by the cops twice. One time they brought her home in the back of the car.

31:24 So I mean we've gotten push there's absolutely huge pushback. I've had to just be like This is what we value. You know, my husband and I sat down, we're like, What do we do? You know, we We've thought about going to the police so we dealt with the police and we told them like

31:39 And the police actually admitted like it's She she's fine. Yeah. You know. Yeah. Um But other than that. It's the neighbors that we're calling, you know. And so we've also made her look Better? Like the optics of it. We've like she's on the bike now and

31:55 You know, she looks less She looks more like she's in charge. We also there's a great society, there's a great organization called Let Grow. I don't know if you know about it. But it's It's all about empowering parents and children to give their to have more autonomy. And they have these little licenses that you can print out.

32:12 Did say like I'm Rosie Ducleff and my parents allow me to go to these places And I'm allowed to talk to strangers. I'm talking to you right now. And like so we printed that out for her, and but it's hard. But it's worth it. Well, I don't know. Like w what can I do? Like it will So okay, so there are thirteen.

32:30 Th one's thirteen, one's fourteen. I mean, autonomy is also like what does the child want to do that they can't because they feel afraid or they feel Like they, you know, they can't do it because of parents or society or whatever, and then helping them kind of achieve those goals. So I guess like w maybe an example, like what comes to mind with uh with my kids would be like Do I give complete autonomy, which is they come home

32:56 You know, this is dinner time, you help out with chores and you're you contribute to the household, but I I don't talk to them about homework, I don't talk to them about schoolwork, or do I provide like a structure around this where it's like, let's go over what's due tomorrow and I don't tell them what to do, you know, like how how do you think about that between structure and Autonomy. I think at thirteen and fourteen I would not help them. Structure their time. But if they ha if they don't have the ability. Do you do you see what I'm saying? If they're capable of doing it, let them do it. And if they're not

33:26 Give the structure, but not the instruction. Give the encouragement. Oh back to the E. So what would that look like? I'm happy exposing all my poor. I mean I'm just it's it's really fascinating, right? Because like we have this sense in our s this is another weird thing we do, is that like we think, okay, they're at this age, they need to do this. You know, and I would ask parents like well what what age can they use a knife? And the parent would just be like, It depends on the child. Yeah. You know, and so I that's why I'm like kind of like, Well where are they with it? Right? Because One of the one of the publisher said to me, Well I

34:01 My my child's eleven and I opened up the back door and said, You're free now You have autonomy now. She just stood there. Yes, exactly. I'm telling you, like chickens will just stand there too if they've been inside a cage for like You know, and she was like, But she didn't want autonomy and I was like, Well she She's eleven, she's never had that. So she can't just like Yeah. You can't just tell her to go run and play outside after eleven years of not, right? So that's why I'm asking you, like, where are they? But I think the idea is like

34:29 Don't do things for them. Like ever. Like ever. You don't need to. Especially thirteen, fourteen. It's like Like if they can't manage their time or they can't figure out okay what's next, because that's that's a skill.

34:44 There's actually a study looking at this in um Guadalajara. It's a fascinating study. It looks at Parents that are more westernized who manage the child's time. Okay, now you're doing dinner, now you're doing chores, now you're doing this, now you're doing that. And then more a little more like team parenting like my book, like Where the

35:03 Children manage their own time. And in the study, they sho these are like nine, 10 year olds. In the study, they show that the kids that are in that kind of more flexible environment. Take initiation. They start their homework themselves. They like But it takes time. That's a s that's a skill. I mean, that's one of the things that I tell parents like It when you're managing your child when you're kind of their personal assistant.

35:25 and you're managing their time like blocked hour by hour, you're kind of doing them a disservice because you're They're not able to learn this skill of like what do I do next? Yeah. And you know, like at your job, like my job, I I sit down in the morning it's like, Well, what do I do? That's a big part of the job is like Okay, I gotta interview this person, I gotta set this email, I gotta read this part, I gotta write this part, right? And that's a skill that takes time. So I would start if I if I don't know, I'm not trying to say your child doesn't have that, but if if if I felt like my child didn't have that, I would start trying to teach like teach them that.

35:59 You know, like what do you What do you have on your plate tonight? Yeah. You know, what would you do next? Questions, questions exactly. Like, you know. That was one of my favorite parts. Questions not commands. So we actually now have a little school. And so I love it because I get to say I tried these things on lots of kids, you know, like as time's gone on, I've gotten more confident because I've tried them on all these kids at this little school we have. And like the questions work on every kid.

36:23 And the questions are designed to get them to think about the next step instead of you giving the instruction. And telling them what to do. That's right. We have one little boy who He's eleven, he's very smart, great reader, great math, but he cannot do anything that I don't tell him kind of the next step.

36:41 Like we were just making um Valentine's Day carts and then hanging them on a tree for the teacher. And he was literally standing there with the two pieces of yarn and was like, What do I do next? And I was like, What do you think you do next? And it took about five minutes. For him to figure out that he needs to tie it and put it on the tray. And you just let him sort of struggle with it. Yeah. Yeah. That's really interesting. And the M, I guess, we've sort of talked about this a little bit. Yeah in the circle. The M is like minimal interference.

37:10 That's kind of a little bit what we're getting at. It's like We think that good parenting I thought that good parenting was maximal interference. Like I was always trying to figure out okay, what do I tell Rosie next? Okay, I'm always looking out for like the next thing to say. And like one parent even told me, I I forgot who it was, but she told me Sometimes I have to really hold myself back. Mm-hmm. From interfering.

37:32 To see if they can do it. You know, that there's this like magic moment where you wanna jump in and that's when they're like But if they need your help, you jump in. How do we learn that as parents?'Cause you're you're you've done it for so long and then the temptation is obviously I tell parents and this is kinda how I started it. Was I would Take Rosie to the beach. I would take her to an environment where she had r a lot of autonomy. I know the beach doesn't sound like that to a lot of parents, but like.

37:58 I had taught her like not to go into the water. And then I would just sit there like hours and I would read and work and just let her live. And that was how I practiced it. You get the confidence that like, oh, the kid I don't need to interfere so much and When I don't interfere, she does she's so happy and she's you know, I can work and my I can do my life and like I think you just have to try it. And she didn't want to play with you and y or she did want to play. She didn't want to play with me. I mean, especially if there was like

38:27 Not other kids around or something. I would just say no, I'm I'm reading right now. Mm. You know? I mean that's another thing is like most society's parents don't play with children. Yeah. Like oh a baby's a little bit.

38:39 But otherwise sort of like figure it out. Use your imagination. Before Yeah, or there's other kids a lot of times there's other kids around. And now we're in a nonstop I feel like I have to entertain you. So that is another huge one. hu huge difference in our this is one of I think the most stressful things is like This feeling of what do you do with your time with your kids. Kids do not need to be entertained.

39:03 They have not been entertained for like hundreds, thousands of years. Two hundred thousand years. They do not need it. Like I said, like you can welcome them into your world. And teach them how to be in your world. But when they're in their world You can be there. T for together. But you don't have to do anything.

39:23 There's a lot of differences between the world's Mm-hmm. And our world. Yes. Some some of those differences are Shoot. Yes, technology.

39:35 Well, both of those are changing. Culture. Culture. uh in terms of women's roles and and whether they work or not, and how they contribute. How do you think that affected how they're raising kids. Is that specific to that environment? How does it affect our environment? What's the same? What's different? In the Maya community and the Inuit community, which is you know just north of us right now in Canada.

40:01 There was lots of technology. Okay. And lots of processed foods. Interesting. Yeah. I mean the Maya community less, but Like they're eating fruit loops for breakfast, sort of thing. The inuit yes. A lot of them, yes. The might have the more there were more traditional foods kind of made every day and eaten every day, but they had you know

40:20 Had it it was v no technology. m very little um westernized processed food. So it was very different. So I think the the food is interesting question because like these really control children and control us kind of in ways. I don't know. What do you mean by that? Like I think both tech I think technology is probably easier to talk about. I mean it's designed to make the child use it. Right. So it's it's not a secret, right? To shape the child's behavior and th their activities. And so it's it's hard to be As a parent to just let that go. So how is it impacting these kids though? Like kids today, I mean

40:58 My kids are maybe an exception, but most kids long before they hit thirteen, fourteen, have iPhones or Uh iPads and Right. So the Maya is very fascinating. The Maya Many of the parents

41:12 Told me that They don't get a phone until they can pay for it. But you can do that when everybody's in the collective. When you're the only grade, you know, when my grade seven. So how did you do it? You know, well, I just did what my parents did. I was like, I don't care about Johnny down the street. Yeah, yes, yes. I care about you, but like I feel that pressure and in grade seven. You know, that he was the there's two kids in his class who didn't have a phone in grade eight, he was the only one who didn't have a phone. Uh

41:38 He feels it because he feels sort of like left out. You know, like these guys or these you know, my classmates are doing something and I'm not I can't be a part of it. The way that we've talked about this inside our house is like, okay, going into grade nine, you can have a phone but you can't take your phone to school with you. Uh, and you have to wait at least a year before you have to show me your that you can be responsible with it before you can have other apps on your phone that aren't sort of like games, right? Like so Uh, before you can have Instagram or my whole path with this is like I'm hoping schools ban phones. By the time they like by the time they might w they probably will. Well, Ontario came out yesterday and said they bann phones in in all um schools up until the end of grade twelve, which I think is a great idea personally.

42:25 Um, and I'm hoping we get to this place with sort of like Snapchat and social media and some of that stuff before he gets there. So I'm like all about delaying, right? Like I mean, yeah, I mean that is the the word sort of like they're growing up in a world where they have to coexist with technology, and we know how addictive it is. So you know, all of a sudden you're eighteen and giving them a phone is also probably not the best strategy. It's interesting because the all the data show that when they get the phone it do it makes them more lonely. Yeah. It makes them more isolated. Adamant, no phone. Uh

43:00 I don't care what the pushback is, like I'm I'm gonna slow roll this as long as I can. And he told me every year you can delay it. Makes a huge difference. Absolutely. Because they have like a prefrontal cortex, right? The inuet were really interesting because they have tons of video games. Tons of TV. Like the the grandmother we were with was like she spent like a A week out in the land hunting caribou, and then she comes back, she's like, I got so much CSI to catch up on. Like there's this like very like. The technology and

43:29 Never like Completely squeezed out the other life. Right. How is that possible? Because it's designed and I say this as You know, it's designed to make it a it's designed to squeeze it out. There's there's no doubt a sixteen year old boy or girl and they're on technology, like how do you limit how did they limit that as parents? I mean I think s some of it is like and I'm not saying that anyone know how to do this at all because um I don't want to give that impression, but I think delay is absolutely the right word for many reasons. But also

44:03 It's about making sure that it is like you're talking about like it is not The way it works in the brain is is it narrows your desires and wants. To this to this one thing. That's that's what happens over time. I mean you see it with kids, right? There's like all they do is be are is on their phone. Right. They do nothing else.

44:25 And I think that to me is like The key and it's what you're talking about. It's like having these spaces and time And And I mean we could talk about this for like an hour. We could like go on and on about this. Um

44:42 And I feel like we've kind of gone out and tanned it, but No, let's double click on this for a second. What what are sort of the big points here? Because this is something when I talk to other parents, it's a hot topic to talk about. Yeah. When I talk to schools, it's a hot topic. People wanna know. uh more about it. They also want to know sort of like Where Where they can take strides, right? So if if

45:04 parents are listening to this and they have a sixteen year old addicted to their phone. Yeah. What are the tangible things they can do in the next one month or, you know, today, the next month, the next three months to sort of like help. Okay, so here's how it works, and this is what I'm just writing about right now. Our brains are these little prediction devices, right? And when I walk into an environment, my brain Does this quick calculation of where am I gonna get my rewards in this environment. I'm gonna maximize the rewards and kids are even more this way.

45:33 'Cause their brains are The prefrontal court is less evolved or less developed. If a child walks into the living room, and every time they walked into that living room for the last like Five years of their life. They've played on the video game. They've looked at their phone. Their brain is just Lighting up Lego Firecrackers.

45:51 They're gonna use the phone. It's gonna it's gonna exclude out everything else. You're never gonna pick up a book. Because it the phone is designed to do that. So the only way you can bring back these other things into their life.

46:05 is to create environments where their brain knows they can't have it. You have to. So does that mean like a technology free weekend? Does it mean like Whip it around. So that's like the kind of the desire or like the way we talk about now, like Sabbath is and hours where we're not. It's the other way around.

46:23 Life is without it, and these are the times we have it. Oh interesting. Okay. Because then your brain relaxes. I can't 'Cause again, your brain is just an it's just a it's a prediction device. It just is predicting where do I get these things? And if it knows like I never get it. If it's variable reinforcement, then you're Oh just like all there's there's variable reinforcement. It's just the tip of the iceberg of the

46:45 Of the The tools they use to create this. No, but I mean like if if you're like, Oh, I can get video games some days at four, I can get it at some days at six. So if you move it around. If you move it around as a parent, you create this sort of like I I don't know. It's interesting because you could think of the moving that a that's a very interesting question to me. I've read both in these books. Like You should do it at the same time. So if you do it at the same time

47:08 The brain will know. The brain will know and if you don't do it at that time you'll get like So this is what we currently do and and like Give me the best practices here, because I'm making this shit up as I go. But it's like, okay, we do video games. It's like seven, eight. If you have your homework done.

47:24 I would cut out every day. Oh, I can't. Yeah. They learn a lot from bidigan. I mean, I would argue they actually learn a lot from Vidigans. Screens are not screens. Right. It depends on what they're actually Playing, right? But they don't need it.

47:39 I don't I don't know. Well You know. There's there's an element of you're right, they don't need it. There's an element of All their friends are doing it.

47:49 Playing those video games. Yeah. But I mean they don't need every day. Oh God. I think you know, if you were to survey parents, the fact that I give them like eight hours of screen time a week is probably on the extremely low end. Is eight hours of screen time gonna like hurt them in the long run? Probably. This is what I worry about. I mean, I think again, it depends on what they're doing. Depends on the kid, depends on their reward center. There's all these genetics involved and like I have this incredibly addictive personality. Like I can get I'm

48:20 Basically addicted to Gmail, right? Like the interest on Harris. Like I I I can get like we'll play Hey man, I'll be like, play it again, you know? Like so like For me, an hour a day playing videos wouldn't be good. Okay. You know, I think for some kids it wouldn't be good. Well, I do change what they play. So if they're mean to each other after Yeah. So we've talked about this, right? Like we we um took away a certain video game a while ago.

48:45 Because I was like, Hey and I warned them, right? I'm like, I noticed how you guys interact after you play this. I don't like it. Right. That's not what we do and that's not how we treat Anybody, let alone her family. And then it kept going and I was like okay, you just can't play this video game anymore. So I think And then it came back two years later. The game? Yeah. I was like, Do you want to try again? Like, you know, they're like, We want to play it. And I'm like, Okay, but you know why we lost it, right? Like so if it has the same impact, we're gonna have the same results. So I think you said like the key thing here, we always talk about time.

49:14 hours of whatever screen, but it's like that Like, I think we need new recommendations from AAP from all the societies because An hour of screen time. n today can be so different first of all what what you're doing. Oh totally. Yeah. And then it's so different than like an hour screen time when I was a kid. Yeah. Right? It's just not the same. So I think you have to like do exactly what you're saying. You have to like

49:36 What happens during that hour screen time? How does the kid behave? What does it what do they behave like afterwards, right? Like how does it make them feel? Like why do we need to do things Why do kids need to do things where they feel worse afterwards? Tell me more about this feeling worse. Is that like when I I try to end it and They won't let me end it. Is it how they treat people? Like what does it mean to feel worse? I mean, I think you're d you're doing exactly what I'm saying it's it's like assessing like I'm really just making this stuff up. Like this is I have no idea what I'm doing. I'm just trying to think like, Okay, maybe let's figure this out. One thing is that just because a child wants it

50:15 doesn't mean it's actually like pleasurable. Of course. Right. And so I think a lot of parents think that they oh they want it so much. The they they like it. Right. And and that's just wrong. That's based off like

50:27 Fifty year old. Neuroscience. So Yeah. I'm gonna push back on this slightly because when when I intuitively hear that I think in a different way, which is probably completely wrong, but I think

50:40 Ah, something they care about. a currency that I can use to Manipulate at worst behavior. Yes, yes. Right. And I think lots of parents for that. Positively reward behavior at best, maybe. Right. And so it's like the one thing in their lives where I'm like, Okay, I have something that I know they want. Yes. I think that's the common. That's very common. And I think I felt that way too about it at first. But then I was like

51:04 Is it worth it? Go deeper on that. Like okay, so we had like Was he Maybe like when she was six?

51:11 It was like Starting like with you know Netflix, right? Mm-hmm. Which is insane. Right? I mean if you w you watch it. Like it

51:19 It m makes me feel insane to watch some some of it. It's like so fast and it's so like psychedelic, and it's just like uh And we would every night she would get some time and it would like you saying it was like this currency, right? This like oh reward, this like manipulative device. But then at the end of it she'd be so crazy. And every night it would be like a struggle and a fight and like She'd be like a different child. And it was just like

51:44 I don't think this is worth it. I don't need this. I can I don't first of all I I can motivate her in other ways. Ways that don't make her scream at me and ways that don't feel like this struggle and don't make her hyper and don't And it just feels like a waste of her time. I think I come at it more from the perspective of it's not hurting her. But actually

52:02 She's gonna feel better and have if she does something else. Yeah. And it like lifelong better. You know, because what you're doing is you're building habits. Oh totally. Right. Like when I'm when I'm bored, when I when I want to relax, and I would even question whether it's relaxing for kids a lot. Especially video games.

52:20 I do this. Mm-hmm. Right. I can build that habit. I can build that habit in Rosie like that. But maybe maybe a maybe a better in her life would be like

52:30 When I'm bored I play I play them a piano. Mm-hmm. I read a book and she's never gonna pick those things if she knows the other is available. I have one kid who probably reads too much. So if that's even possible. I think most kids are not like that. Yeah.

52:45 I take away books as like a consequence. He's like, you know, books like paper books? And Kindle, like he's on the Kindle all the time. It's attached to my account. So hey, I get these crazy Amazon recommendations. It's like based on your read. I'm like, man, you don't know me. I'm not worried about AI taking over at all, right? Then I open the Kindle and I'm like, oh now I know where to get it from. But like it's it's a currency coming back to technology. It's like I know something that motivates him. I know that hey I'm gonna, you know, this is a consequ a natural consequence to your behavior.

53:19 And then he's like, Oh, you're the dad that takes away reading from his child. Right. But that currency to me is more valuable than like watching Netflix. Does it matter if they're if it's sort of like the same thing, if they're reading a book about the same show they'd be watching, do you think or I I mean I think it just again it depends on what you value. What do you think? For a while Rizi was kind of addicted to um Audio books. Okay. Like hours and hours and hours, like six, seven hours on the weekends, you know? of just listening. And to some parents that would be like amazing.

53:49 And I mean I I think that's better than watching cartoons in the sense that like She learned narrative structure. She learned an incredible vocabulary, right? Like like so that's what I'm saying. Like I had to like figure out. But then it was I could see it was like squeezing out other things. And it was like creating conflict. Right. Like so it's like what do I value? Takes over. So this value thing is super interesting because it's It makes me wonder if a lot of our parenting is driven by like We're trying to succeed through our children instead of putting our children in a position where they can succeed. I think that we need to oh you get into Yale, that's my success as much as your success. And you're transmitting the value of that.

54:28 Yeah. I don't think we stop. And think enough about like How our actions and what we say and what we The currency we use with children.

54:38 Transmits values. So for instance like I'm sitting there talking to one of my friends about Jonathan's book and about literally about this topic. In the e with with the mom of two Children and the thirteen year old comes over and shows us, Look, Mom, look at this video of this gerbil. Like while we're talking about this topic. And what does the mom do?

54:59 Stops looks at the video. Stops our face to face conversation. to look at this like TikTok video. Mm-hmm. And like engage with it. And I just left there and I was like, What is that transmitting to The children in the room.

55:13 They're the the VIP, right? You're the And this TikTok video is more important. Yeah. Than a face to face conversation with a friend. And it's not something you're actively communicating, but it's something they're receiving through Oh, I think it's active. I mean, yes, in the sense that like not directive I'm not saying oh the TikTok video is more important, but that's not how kids learn. Kids don't learn from what you say is important. Kids learn through practice and modeling. That is how kids learn.

55:41 Everything. What would be an alternative way to handle that situation? I would say I'm I'm I'm I'm talking I'm talking to this is important. I'm having a conversation with Mike Lane right now. You know, let's discuss this later. And then I would tell the child later. You know, number one, that's really rude.

55:56 Mm. To to you know. You know, it's a thirteen year old kid. Like they should know at that point. That's rude to in you know, interrupt in the middle of a conversation, like I would tell Rosie that.

56:07 Nicely. Not maybe not as mean as I just said it. You would do that after, not in the moment. I wouldn't do it in the moment. You would embarrass the child. You'd make a big scene. It in the moment it's more of a performative parenting. device. Right. Which is again, what do you value? Be looking good as a parent. They're less likely to learn, but you feel better. That's right. You're basically shaming them. Right. But I would tell them in the moment, like I'm I'm this conversation is important and There, I'm transmitting the value of I value of face to face interaction more than some gerbo video on TikTok. Right. But if you look around chain, you will see this everywhere. You will see parents

56:45 actively valuing and modelling The love of technology. The reward system is really a value system. Yeah. The the reward system in the brain Is made

56:56 In animals. So to, you know, make sure they get food, sex, water, safety, right? But in humans, it's can be it can be hooked up to anything that seems valuable. And that's what children are learning. They're learning that the screen, these videos, this video game. This is what our society this is what my family values. It's so hard. Like I I

57:17 I leave my phone in a different room when we eat dinner. Yeah. Yeah, we we have it we have one phone. And it's in a drawer. And I feel it.

57:27 Right. You want to go over there? I do. I I I definitely feel a pull towards it, right? Well, it's like where's my phone? You know, like you don't have this thing on your name. But it's interesting'cause Uh, a couple of weeks ago, my youngest came up to me and he's like, I like that you never have your phone. At dinner. And I was like, I didn't even think you noticed. He's like, Yeah. Like it was just this moment of like

57:55 Oh, I was like I so I was doing it because I wanted to pay attention to them. And my motivation was like less of a Uh you know, it's sort of communicating values, which is like we need to chat face to face, but it was also about avoiding regret. I didn't want them I always think about like well they're gonna move out one day. Yeah. I hope. Eventually. And

58:15 When they move out. I'm gonna wish I was having dinner with him. Yeah, and what was more important? Checking your email? For the on your time or like

58:23 And so all of these thoughts lead to like I'm just gonna leave and I'm not uh I usually am, but like I'm not a hundred percent confident that I can just. Like leave it in my pocket. And then you can't. But the other thing that I've started doing recently is I just when I'm with them, I put it on silent mode. For sure. And the only people that can get through silent mode are them. Right. I mean

58:44 All these things that you're doing Are transmitting the value of like you care about Interacting with them. More than the phone. Yeah, I I didn't think they paid attention. Oh, at least one of them pays attention. I think it's a fascinating observation. I've been

58:58 I'm writing a chapter now about how actually kids don't like Technology as much as you think they do. Oh, tell me more about this. Because I just asked them. But can they answer that? It's not that blatant.

59:14 And you can actually find it P in in these um Like in conversations or in books, people will say these Th people will like Say what you just said. Like

59:24 Kids will say things like, Oh, I really like this night because we're not on the screens. You know, so kids that's what I'm saying. Like But you can ask them. You can say, like what what do you do on the iPad after school? I do this, I do that. And then one little girl said Without even me saying anything was like But you know, I would do something more fun and more you know better if my parents let me. Oh, you don't want to actually be on that bed. No, I don't really want to be on that bed. Actually, and Rosie one day said to me, like not that long ago, she said, I thought you wanted me on the Netflix.

59:51 Oh interesting. Because I kinda did, in the sense that like what you're talking about, using it as currency, right? So I was like pushing it at her. Right. You need to find something. You don't need it. It was really weird. It's just like um again, it's this question of Wanting it wanting to pick up your phone and actually

1:00:12 Enjoying it. And actually valuing it and actually like I think most kids Would rather do something else. But they are like, especially teenagers that have been on technology for so long, I mean, their brains are so wired. To want it.

1:00:27 They call them motivational magnets. The cues turn into these like magnets that pull you there. Not the actual Software, the Qs. Yeah. And you actually transfer the value onto the Qs. And it's this very, very, very strong pull. To get away from that, you have to protect the child from the cues.

1:00:45 What do you tell your I don't know, like I'm picking random ages here, but like your your sixteen year old or your twelve year old that they can't watch a show On Netflix, or or that's not what our family does or values, but then they go to school And everybody's talking about it and now they feel left out. They feel like they're not a part of something. Right, right. And isn't it interesting how it's all about fear? Because we think it's about reward. Yeah, yeah. But it's actually about fear, and the fear and the reward system are all enneshed. Yeah. Um

1:01:15 So I think at the teenage years You start you really they you they really need to start to understand how it affects their brain. Right. You know, and how it's manipulating their brain, kind of wiring wiring up their reward system to prioritize it over everything else. Teenagers don't like to be manipulated. So I think you start there. You start with this conversation of how this actually works. One of the nurse scientists said to me, he has a twelve year old boy, just gave him a phone.

1:01:42 He gave him this like hour long powerpoint on what the phone does to his brain. And how it works. And how the This thing called sign tracking and all this stuff. Um, and then they had they sat down and they said, Okay, he said, How much of your day do you want the phone to take up? Let's write it down.

1:01:57 How much do you want? And I think the kids is on like forty five minutes a day. Which sounds About what you're doing, right? Yeah. And he said, Okay, and they wrote it out and he said, Now it's my job as the parent to hold him to that. It becomes more of this

1:02:12 Cooperation Saying where they're like Well that's what it is, right? Like you're effectively trying to come up with something with them, but you're still the parental authority. Oh I think absolutely to coaching. Yeah, it's more it's a more guidance. But then there I think that there's these rules that make sense just neuro neurologically, you know, like no No screens in the bedroom.

1:02:35 Yeah. I mean Like we got rid of right now we have No screens after seven. And I try to hold it.

1:02:42 to myself. I I can't do that just because of homework too. Like the they do all their homework on technology. Sure. I mean like yeah yeah. But like they leave their phones in the living room. They're not allowed to phones in their bedroom at this point, you know, this all changes. But try try it in the sense that like If you can One of the neuroscientists who studies dopamine in the eyes told me three hours before bedtime. Yeah. And so I started doing I mean it's crazy, right? That's like seven o'clock, right? Yeah. Um, and I started doing it like maybe in November. And I

1:03:13 Jane, I sleep like I've never slept before. I mean I'm not kidding you. I'm like I mean I and I think I think kids will feel the same. I mean it really affects your the sleep. There's no doubt. Is there a book you came across in your research that like parents of teens, you know, sort of twelve, thirteen can be like hey Before you get a phone, before we talk about technology, I want you to read this and let's have a conversation about it. I would recommend watching Social Dilemma. Okay. Have you watched that? Have you guys watched that? Definitely watch that. I've heard of some teenagers tell me they've had to watch it in school. Like it's Oh interesting. Yeah, it's it's good. It is the same schools that don't ban phones.

1:03:46 I'm not sure. I haven't done the cross correlation data on that. But I d but the problem is is that parents don't know these things. Like parents it's not like I say uh like it's not an even playing field right now. The tech industry has all this knowledge and tools And goals. about technology and how it affects your brain and and it affects children's brains more that way because of

1:04:08 You know, they're not as developed. And parents have none of it right now. It's a really, really uneven playing field. And we're playing with these old rules of two hours of screen time at night and I try to be I I mean personally I just try it. Like the rules are interesting. we're trying to get away from roles into more like autonomy.

1:04:28 If you will, within within certain limits of absolutely how that goes. But I mean, it's just a nonstop struggle. And I have great kids. So I can imagine like if you had if you had more difficult children, I can only like some nights I go to bed and I'm like, Man, I just won the Olympics, right? Nobody died today. Everybody ate food. This is a win. And they were on the screen for an hour. And and you know, like some days I'm like oh I just don't care. I need a break, right? Like I I need uh I mean it really is about setting up your environment. I mean I I said that earlier. Yeah. I said like you set up an environment where the child can be autonomous and you It's about doing that with the screens. It's gonna be hard it's just gonna be harder because

1:05:09 They They are magnets. I wanna come back to this just before we end, but like what Have you learned about And

1:05:16 Not these tribes, but in sort of Western culture, what can we do for our environment? That sort of at least adds friction to things, if not removes them as a possibility. Um you mean for technology? Well, for technology or anything. Like what can we do to encourage autonomy in our kids?

1:05:36 Through the environment. I I'm I'm a big fan of the environment is like the hidden hand. It is. I think James Claire said that the hidden hand that shapes your your Yeah. I mean, like we said, like a prediction machine. I come into an environment and it's like And yeah. Like I'm predicting everything that I've done here in the past. Especially with younger children. I mean older children too. It's about empowering them

1:05:57 So you don't have to say anything to them. Right. It's Teaching them. the skills they need so that they can be autonomous in your environment. So you can either change the environment and get rid of everything, which is what we kind of tend to do with kids. But then You just leave them unempowered, right? Or you slowly teach them.

1:06:15 You know? So Does that make sense? A little bit, yeah. I I think it's just Uh I'm trying to make it practical for right. So give me an example of something that you've uh uh like a house environment. Like what are the things so like one thing that you mentioned that I I picked up on, which I mean we don't do

1:06:31 Um, other people may or may not, and I tr really try not to judge other people. Everybody's doing their best. I really do. And every kid is different. That's the thing too. So but like having a T V in your room or or having something like so that's an environmental choice, right? Where you put the parental choice. And so if you put the TV in sort of the main floor, you end up with one sort of you're you're exemplifying one thing. Right. And if you put it in the basement, you're you're sort of like putting it out of the way. It's not a showpiece. Uh, and then the kids get more autonomy in a way because they have to go downstairs and like figure it out themselves and hang out with their friends if they want to watch TV. And so like I'm just thinking, are there any other environmental I would love to learn some. I'm sure everybody else listening would. I think one of the things that maybe we haven't said explicitly that should be said is like

1:07:19 I don't think children can be autonomous with technology, some technologies. Oh, that's interesting. Okay. I I I don't think that they're capable. I don't even think adults are capable. I'm not. So use the environment to shape the technology uses like screen time limits or app limits or something like that. That's right. So like let's take like Inuit hunting. A lot of one of the big goals in is to teach boys, but now girls too, it's very mixed, um, to seal hunt. Mm-hmm. Okay, m they have to do many families have to do it and like

1:07:51 you know, this is a skill you have to learn, right? Well the seal hunt is crazy. Like it is a crazy skill. You have to go out on the ice. Poke a hole in the middle of nowhere. And stint and then they put a little tiny like feather in the hole and you sit there and you stare at it for six hours.

1:08:09 Until the feather moves. And then you stab the ice. This is a very difficult Yeah. Task. Well, you can't just take a six year old and tell them to go see a hunt. Yeah. Right. Well, what do they do?

1:08:21 The dad explained it to me. He's like, When the kid can stay outside for six hours, then we'll take'em with us, but we'll park them like way out because if they make noise. You're gonna mess it all up. And then If the kid still wants to do it, then we'll bring you know, slowly bring them closer. And it's like I mean, I think that's well how we have to think of technology is a little bit like seal hunting. A little bit at a time demonstrate responsibility and then Yeah, you delay it until they show a lot of interest and really want it. And then it's like, Okay, well, where can you go in the seal hunt? You're gonna be way out there. Right. And then you sh you show me you can do that. And then and then I'll pull you in. I'll do that. Which is like okay, well show me you can be responsible before we start adding more things to do. And delaying it, you know, because they're the kids not capable.

1:09:08 Of standing over the hole. Six hours, right? And it's like the the parent's not gonna stick them in that situation and have them fail. Well, I think if you put a phone Give the child a phone and stick'em in their bedroom or the video game'cause You're putting them at the seal hole to fail. Right. And so it it's not new that this idea. I just think that we have to treat this thing as this tool that's like

1:09:30 Kids can't learn yet. They don't have the mental capacity. To sit over the hole for six hours. They don't have the mental capacity to carry a phone into their room and not go to bed. It's a slow process. Oh, yeah, and like everybody's doing the best they can. Every child is different. Every sort of like environment's different, but then like every broader environment's different and too. Like actually the community, the school. A lot of schools are all technology now. There's iPads and computers and laptops and in the school is crazy. Which I think actually

1:10:02 means at home it's more important They need to build these other skills. Yeah. I mean, like I'm a big fan of Cal Newpert, and he talks a lot about how like concentrating and these in you know doing this kind of deep Thinking and stuff is it takes practice. We always end with uh the same question, but I'm gonna use a slightly different version of it for you, which is. What?

1:10:24 Is success as a parent for you. So when I first before I wrote the book, it was like what you're talking about, like Yale. You know, it's like Mercy speaking Mandarin and going to Yale. I don't I don't even Oh. But then when I With the book I was like

1:10:41 Success for me is Rosie feeling be growing up mentally healthy. What does that mean, mentally healthy? Not having Tons of anxiety and depression and like feeling suicidal and like, you know, like just Like enjoying life.

1:10:56 You're like really enjoying life. And Enjoying Our relationship. Enjoying being part of the family, which I think is important for like mentally healthy kids. You know, that means working, having a job, that means having a

1:11:08 Family, that means Whatever that means for her, but like You know, waking up and being excited. About the things she's doing. In that day.

1:11:17 It's a beautiful way to end this conversation. Thank you so much for taking the time. Mm. Thanks for listening and learning with us. For a complete list of episodes, show notes. transcripts and more go to fs.blog slash podcast or just Google the Knowledge Project. Recently, I've started to record my reflections and thoughts about the interview after the interview.

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