Advice Line with Jonah Peretti of Buzzfeed

Transcript from https://podmenti.com/t/c628004f29ccf56a

Hello and welcome to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show.
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Alright.
Let's get to it.
Joining me this week is BuzzFeed founder and CEO Jonah Paretti. Jonah, welcome back to the show.
Thanks for having me.
So you were first on uh back in twenty seventeen to tell us a story about how you started BuzzFeed, and that was a long time ago. I mean we did that that live in New York City. It was uh it was fun. I had fun, hope you did.
Yeah, it was great. Uh, and if anyone listening missed that episode and you want to go back and listen, it's a great episode. It involves the founding of Huffington Post and Ariana Huffington makes an appearance in the show, all kinds of things happen.
Uh we will drop a link to it in our episode show notes. Um so basically uh the b BuzzFeed story really began about twenty years ago, back in two thousand six, uh for a time
It was the most fun place on the internet. The site had online quizzes and listicles, and I'm sure lots of you listening remember the famous dress and
Was it gold and white or black and blue I always saw
Gold and White myself.
And over time buzzfeeds started to

In twenty twenty one uh but today.
the internet is a much different place than it was when we first told the story.
And BuzzFeed like m many other um similar sites like Vice and others.
has faced its share of challenges. Um the recent article in the New York Times
with the headline Can Jonah Paretti save Buzzfeed? So Jonah, let's start with that question.
Can you save BuzzFeed? What's going on right now with BuzzFeed?
Uh so
I would argue that BuzzFeed is uh still one of the most fun places on the internet. You know, tens of millions of people every every month coming to coming to BuzzFeed.
We also have HuffPost, uh another Pulits are winning news brand and so that you guys acquired, I think, in twenty twenty.
Yeah, so I I started it, you know, all over twenty years ago and and then uh it was
Sold to AOL and then was had the opportunity to buy it back. So now um now HuffPost is our is our news brand. And so
We've had a lot of changes over the years, um, and the way the internet works has really dramatically changed.
The biggest difference is that
content from publishers used to go viral on Facebook all the time.
And everyone used to be on Facebook. Now now the social
web is really fragmented. Some people are on Facebook, some on Instagram, some on TikTok, so you know, some
are quitting the apps entirely and trying to
And so you don't see content.
from publishers fly across these social media the way you used to.
And so our business has radically changed. Now people come directly to BuzzFeed, coming to our front page, coming directly to our site.
Um and
Building community. So BuzzFeed now has really a very active um comments section that we put a lot of uh attention into.
Um Huff Post um has had
Tremendous growth in membership.
The biggest thing we have to f figure out as a as a company is some of these legacy
things that encumber the business, you know, some pre-COVID real estate that we still have leases on, um debt payments, some of the restructuring costs, like all these things have weighed down our business and we we've made a lot of progress. Um but we still have more work to do on that. And and I think one of the things that you cover in your
in your show is
is the way entrepreneurs have to continually reinvent their businesses and change what they're doing and No question. Yeah. Yeah, you know, I think about when you started this business twenty years ago. I mean you were a younger guy and you've had a lot of experience running a business now for twenty years as a as the CEO.
Um but you know, you've you are at a in a rocky period. You it's not uh secret that you've told investors that you guys were are at risk of not continuing by the end of this year if you run out of cash. So give me a sense of what the game plan is. How do you I mean you also have said that you're optimistic.
About the future of the company, which is important. You should be, you're the the leader.
Tell you.
how you will you sort of plan to
Turn the ship around.
Yeah, so we d what what happened was we disclosed what's called a going concern.
Yeah. And that is a technical accounting term that means that
Um you have liabilities within the next year.
That you can't
Cover with your
with your current cash balance.
А лота компанії.
have had those. We had one in a couple of years ago as well.
Um that we resolved.
So our plan and management's plan is to resolve that going concern.
And
Really going going back to founder mode of saying, Hey
W we gotta reinvent the company for this near future.
And wanting investors to know there's risk to that, but also now we're getting back to
Um what we love most, which is innovating and creating new things. Uh we launched this new incubator branch office. We have new apps.
Yeah, tell me tell me about that. This is all around AI apps, right?
Yeah, I mean I think
The apps
Use AI, but I think any time you're building something new now, there'll be some AI.
Yeah, aspect to it.
The main thing isn't that it's AI, um the main thing is that it's starting fresh to build things for
the world as it exists today.
One of the apps that is uh really fun is if you
search in the app uh the Apple app store uh is
Conjure camera.
You get one challenge every day, uh, from a mysterious spirit, and you take pictures with the camera and it shows you unseen things that are in the world around you.
It's kinda like a Pokemon Go uh meets Instagram meets uh
a new thing that couldn't have existed until a you know a year or two ago.
Um and so building things like that are
you know, really exciting for me because it it it gets back to the reinventing it and creating new things and seeing a lot of excitement.
in in the new models that we're developing around community membership, programmatic advertising, uh new AI apps and new ways of of operating.
Alright, well, um be interesting to follow and see what happens and of course I'm I'm wishing you
Um great luck. Are you ready to take a call from somebody who is looking for advice from us?
Yeah, let's do it. Let's do it. Okay. Welcome to the advice line. You're on with Jonah Pretti.
founder of BuzzFeed, please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.
Hi Guy, hi Jonah. My name is Anthony Cortez. I'm calling from Miami, Florida, and I'm the CEO and founder of Motion Flix.
We bring movies beyond the traditional theater and into the open air, creating a five star cinema under the stars with plush seating.
Personal headphones and elevated concession service.
Wow, well thanks thanks in, Anthony. So it's motion flick, so you are a company that
mount outdoor movie experiences, basically. Correct. Yeah, we pop up pretty much anywhere. The beach, rooftops, backyards.
Anywhere we can think of.
And you bring everything. You bring the screen, you bring the chairs, you bring the headphones. Yes, screen headphones, um concession, we have popcorn attendance that serve throughout the event. Um everything that's in the theater comes to you.
And outdoors.
And you work with like companies hire you? Like who who pays for all this?
Yeah, so um a lot of it is property management companies that they have resident events, as you know, a lot of the rentals now, um, they put a lot of effort into their experiences and their community. So that's a big part of our uh clientele. And then we also work with uh Netflix and Prime to bring a cinematic experience to their originals since they don't have
really presents in movie theaters for their originals. So we've been able to do some great stuff with them. Um and then also cities will bring us on to do community events in their parks.
Um and sponsored events.
Nice. How did this business start?
Yeah, so um I have always had a love for events and my business partner has uh a background in property management. So during COVID, we kind of were just like everyone else trying to figure out how can we adapt to this this new way of living. And we found that there was a lot of
budgets that weren't being used for resident events.
uh because of covet so
We kind of thought how can we come up with a creative way for people to gather outdoors with proper social distancing and use these budgets that people have.
Um, so we kinda came up with the concept. It was supposed to be temporary and then it snowballs, and now uh we're in Los Angeles, San Diego, Orlando, Tampa, and now just Miami, we're just launched.
Wow, that's awesome. Congrats. And tell me a little bit about your business. How what did you guys do in overall sales last year?
Uh, last year we did a little over a million.
Nice. Okay. So before I bring Joan in, what is your question or challenge you're trying to
So
Yeah, since our business is seasonal, we do outdoor events and cash flow can be challenging, how can we continue launching new markets ourselves while also attracting aspiring entrepreneurs we can invest in to operate and own a share of each market? And is this the right model to scale efficiently?
All right. Awesome. Joan Freddie, I want to bring you in. Um
Thoughts or ideas or questions that you might have for Anthony before we tackle his question.
Yeah, I guess w one question is how how much in advance do you promote
uh a screening and
Do you think it's important that people have a lot of advanced notice or
It you know, if you saw that there was gonna be some really good weather in
in the winter or something, could you get people to come like more quickly to an event?
Yeah, that's a great question. So we aren't uh we're brought on typically by the location. So typically these locations will plan out their schedules way in advance. So typically in January or Q one, uh they're planning their programming for the year. So we usually already have kind of our set dates. Um
And then we do have weather and what we call weather insurance. If there's rain on the radar, uh, we will move the date at no extra cost to the client.
Anthony, I have a question for you. Um, you mentioned that you're in Los Angeles and Miami and San Diego and a few other places. So
Your question is around how can we invest in entrepreneurs who who want to operate these for us.
Are you doing any of that right now, or you and your partner running all these events in these different cities?

We are doing it right now slowly. So I uh the majority of our business, of course, is in LA because of the love for film there and the weather. Um, so we do have a really great operations manager, Leanne there, that manages all of SoCal. And then I'm here kind of expanding into Florida and working on that. Um my goal is to expand into all major cities.
uh kind of in the same business model where we give a salary and then a percentage of of net profit to each partner.
Got it. Okay.
when you're thinking about these entrepreneurs who are doing it in other cities
Um what is it that keeps them from just just
Just going rogue and
Doing their own.
outdoor event and
Like what do they get from you that makes it
feel like a no brainer to to work with you instead of just kinda
Doing it independently.
Yeah, that's a great question. So um luckily because my business partner
has the experience in property management. He's managed a few buildings. We've been lucky to really kind of
uh know how to get fully insured with these properties that are on a national level. So we pretty much already have clientele as we open in each market. Uh it's a really low risk for us and also the partners. So I'm wondering if that's the best way to do it or just having a team that and we kind of manage it um from
You know, wherever we are.
You know, we've done um a few
Episodes over the years.
about uh franchise m businesses. And we did one recently on Wing Stop and
What they did well and why Wingstop today is three thousand locations around the world. It's the biggest uh you know chicken wings brand in the world.
Uh why it worked was for three reasons. It was simple.
A simple idea, just chic wings.
Uh it they create a replicable system.
And then eventually a brand. And you don't need all three of these things at first, but you do need
The first two. You need a simple model.
And you need
Uh replicable system.
And it's the same story if you look at Dave's hot chicken or five guys and I'm talking about food, because
We think about franchises oftentimes it's it's it's restaurants. Um
En so
Have you created a system?
Oh or or are you working on a system
That can be replicated, that is very clear.
uh and that has a whole operations manual and it's just a kind of a turnkey
Thing.
Yeah, we have. Um and with just like I always hear on this podcast, everything comes with lessons. So um we have gone through a lot that we've
document it and we've come to solutions. We're also working with AI to create a training system that they can just log on through our website and learn how to set up a motion flix event um within, you know, a few hours. And so we are trying to come up with those systems to make it something that we can
Um duplicate, you know, easily in on each market.
Yeah.
But if you could figure out a more real time way of being able to quickly
uh a movie experience um
You know
That that feels like something that is
could be pretty exciting and defensible where like
There's gonna be a good weather day, you know, three days from now and
And you have a
organizations or real estate or places that you know you can quickly spin this up and
People get an alert that some iconic movie is gonna show or some special thing is gonna show, and it it kind of like happens in this way that.
Feels
magical and fast and and surprising and spontaneous. I love that. Um
But it also might open up
You know, when there's gaps or extra, you know, the way a pop up store
will take advantage of real estate where between like one lease and another, they'll find a spot where they get really cheap real estate in a cool spot and do a pop up. Yeah. Like is there a way to make this almost like a real time platform where you're able to to do this and and people can connect to it and and
And grab it and use it for for
the screening idea they have no matter where they are in the in the country to to make something happen quickly. Yeah, it's a great idea.
So like a platform like an like an Airbnb type platform. I mean it's interesting'cause'cause you you could imagine that your business will
could become an events business down the road, where where movies are just one of the things that you're doing.
Right. And and so your question is about like how do you scale this? And it sounds like right now
the model you're kinda leaning towards is sort of sort of like a uh a company owned hub, right? Where you guys
Own
the cities, but you have people who are employees.
You train them and they run it, which is definitely a model. I mean, there are other ways to do it. You could
You could find people who want to invest a small amount of money, you know, sort of buy into it.
And then you guys provide the brand and the systems and the relationships and um
and how to book these events.
And then you've got some sort of revenue split, right? Which allows you to keep control over the brand.
And standards without
Um having
An employee.
In other words, right?
Which could be great, but it's also a liability. Yeah. There's also a licensing model where you can just license it out, but that's riskier because
The people who operate it may not operate it to the standards that you guys
expect and and and want to maintain.
Right.
And then there's the marketplace model where
You basically have real estate people who say I have this space that's suitable for this.
And I get to put which dates it's open, you know, more like the Airbnb model. And then you
You have a a set of standards that you
you have for these kinds of things. And then
It's like the freelance labor, the real estate and all and then your brand all comes together where people can do that and and then partnerships.
Potentially with
you know, the the streamers that wanna that wanna show movies, you know, too. Um so you can have selection of which movies you might have r the rights to show
And you could potentially, you know, have something where it could really scale to be massive, but you'd have to you'd have the challenges of a marketplace of priming the pump and getting the demand on all the different sides of the marketplace, but it could also be something massive.
Yeah. It's great. I mean look, in person events, uh there's a lot of in an era of of sort of
disaggregation and and everybody kind of plugged into their computers. Um
There's a lot I'm sure you know there's a lot of talk and excitement about the future of live events, and I think that there's something to that. Because people do want to connect. They they want to be around other people. So and it sounds like you are leaning towards
Towards what? Towards towards actually
having people as employees in cities around the country, training them and and having them
run the business in in different cities.
Yeah, so I guess it's it's kind of
my passion because I was given the opportunity when I was younger to have my first business and someone invested in me. So it's kind of more of a passion thing and I wonder if that's really something that is scalable, um, is giving an opportunity to people that wanna start their own business and we put up the upfront costs because it's so low to start
emotion flicks in a in a location. Um and it's so it's kind of more like a passion, but I don't know if that's you know, something that's scalable or a good way to
I mean a franchise model can scale very quickly. It's very risky and it requires a whole lot of work to maintain
control over it. Um but it can it can be really successful and it can be a really fast way to scale
a business, but you really have to have a clear
brand, right? You people need to know
Very quickly.
What motion flicks means. It's it's gonna mean great snacks and popcorn and comfortable seats and a really great sound system. Like is it if it means all those things.
you have to really establish that um
In a bigger way.
Yeah, totally. Early on.
Definitely.
Uh, Jonah, final thoughts for
For uh Anthony.
Uh, just a random little extra idea, which is you should do one in the middle of winter.
Serve soup. I love that. Yeah. Blankets. Yeah. It'd get some social media pickup if uh, you know, these people went and you know, pick the coldest day of the year and uh heat lamps, blankets.
Marshmallows. Like a Buffalo Bills game, but for for a movie.
I love that. That's a great idea. I'm gonna do that. Thank you.
Anthony Cortez, a company's called Motion Flix. Thanks for calling in. Good luck.
Thank you so much. I just want to also say that I had this on my goalboard to be on this podcast before you guys even had the advice line. And there I was like, There's no way I'll be on this podcast because I know it's usually really established founders. So this is a full circle moment for me. So thank you so much. Awesome. Well thanks for calling.
Uh yeah. I mean you've talked about this too.
Jonah, about live events. You're really bullish on this, right? Like in person events.
I think that you can embrace
AI and use it in products.
But you also can counter program AI, which is people are sick of just digital experiences and want to connect with other people in the real world. And it's also scarce. You know, if if all of a sudden software is is is sort of infinite and anyone can make vibe code anything, then
What becomes scarce and it's spending time with real people in the world. And so I I definitely think it's a good a good area where there's gonna be a lot of growth.

We're gonna take a quick break, but when we come back, another caller, another question, and another round of advice.
I'm Guy Roz and we've got the answers right here on the advice line on how I built this lab.
Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz, and my guest today is Jonah Peretti, he's the founder and CEO of BuzzFeed, and we are taking your calls and let's bring in our next caller. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.
Hi Guy, hi Jonah. Hello. Um I'm a longtime listener and very excited to be on. My name is Andrew Bruce. I'm based out of San Francisco and the founder of Cat Sumo, which is a pet company focused on helping cats live longer, healthier lives through products that encourage play and relaxation.
While also strengthening the bond between cats and their owners.
Okay, so it's a cat products company. Tell me about your products.
Yeah, so the first product um is an interactive cat wrestling glove.
that allows you to socially play with your cat.
It's like a puppet. Yep.
Yep, exactly. Okay. So I stumbled upon the idea, um
In large part due to my parents, who have historically and somewhat ironically been
Um ardent dog people.
Um so I grew up in Calisbow, Montana, and as a family we raised a litter of six Australian shepherds, and I have really fond memories of rough housing with them as puppies.
Um, so it came as a complete shock when in twenty twenty three my parents they were traveling abroad in Greece, they call me and say, Hey, Andrew.
We've fallen in love with a a feral Greek kitten.
Um we want to rescue her, do you want her?
And I graciously accepted.
And a couple months after living with her, I realized just like those Australian Shepher puppies, she wanted to rough house. She was jumping at my legs, jumping at my hands and arms.
And I realized I I would like a toy to play with her. Right, harder with a cat,'cause you're gonna get scratched.
Quite. Yeah. Yeah. So this glove it it protects your I'm looking at it now on your website. So it's it's like a it looks like a cat and it's you're
company called Catsumo. This is called the Catsumo, like a sumo wrestler. And and I see it's got like catnip in it, so the cat's going for your
Catsumo wrestler'cause it's
Try to the catnip.
Yeah, yeah. So it's loaded with I you know stimulants. So that there are um like mess free catnip bags that you can easily replace in seven locations.
And I put some crinkle material in the ears, and then you can manipulate the legs and the mouth, and it has realistic features. So it it really does intrigue cats.
Cool. Um tell me, uh so you started this business when?
I launched the website was live November of twenty twenty three.
Um, and I had a vi uh like a viral video go December thirty first of that year.
And left my full time job in April of last year.
Wow, what were you doing?
Uh, I was doing mechanical engineering and and medical device.
Well, so this has really taken off. Tell me uh how your uh and and your sales are almost entirely through through your website?
Yeah, so last year
I was selling through my website at the beginning of the year and then um got on Amazon and closed out the year doing around one point two million dollars in sales.
Amazing. And these are and you're you're working with a contract manufacturer in Asia, presumably?
Yes. Yep.
Nice. Okay, so you one point two million sales, congrats, you quit your job.
Um before we dive in further, what's your question for us?
Yeah.
So
When you create a new product category and competitors quickly,
What matters most for actually owning that category long term?
Got it. Okay. General Party I want to bring you in. Um thoughts or questions for Andrew.
It's a real it's a really good question, especially with with physical products because
it is very common, you know, people can go find the same factory and you know
other companies can kind of mimic what you're doing and sell things for for cheaper and undercut what you're you're doing. And so it's hard to keep your margins intact when when that happens.
A few
possible ways to do it. Um
You know
Building a really strong brand.
Building.
community where people are subscribing to something, maybe connecting with each other.
Um
good marketing where
You're constantly
hack in the attention economy where you have new new ways to get viral distribution.
you know some kind of membership or subscription based um
program where maybe you buy the product but you

your cat nip delivery or or new additions or new changes or new toy you know, or even a s a subscription box where a subscription where you get new cat things every month so that you have the customer for longer. Um
But but it it is the right thing to think about because there's a weird
dynamic of this kind of superconnected viral internet, which is that oftentimes people have their best year of sales the the first year because it's there's novelty and it goes viral. And then it's like
you know, how what do you do the second year and the third year? And it used to be you'd slowly build a business and but it would take three years before you got any traction and you know, and that felt
Like painfully slow, but it also had more
forecastability and predictability and I think with in a kind of more viral internet you need to figure out, you know
How do you either keep going viral or how do you lock in core customers into a tighter community or subscriber?
Yeah, I I completely agree. I mean, Andrew, I'm I'm sure you are aware that that, you know, I I just did a quick search here on Amazon. If you type in Catsumo, there are knockoffs, right? And
And that's a a challenge, especially for a small business to try and fight. I mean you can spend a lot of time and money to fight it, but
But what you have is a memorable name and a a a funny kind of
viral product. Um
And as you know, in in this
business speed matters sometimes, uh actually all the time, more than perfection, right? Because it's a
This was a viral product and so the winners aren't always
The best
Or the cheapest products, it's the ones that are moving fastest. And I think now you really
need to hit the gas on
as Jonas you know said, uh new versions, uh maybe d bigger or smaller of uh versions for other kinds of pets for dogs, maybe.
Limited drops, you know, like a
different colours of the cat or um themes. You know, maybe that's really
Wait, what you want to lean into?
Yeah, no, I I completely agree. Um I actually just got back from China and was designing a few accessories to release this year.
And plan on building out with product variations and having certain product lines
um in the in the coming year.
But I also wanted to ask you both, and uh Jonah, you're in the news in industry.
Is there an opportunity here to
Um
H have people.
uh like partake in the community where we start to prop up cats and their owners and
you are you could buy into um some sort of feed or like
Uh it would be basically wrestling footage. We you know, we cat enthusiasts are really fun to work with. I mean it's been so
fulfilling working with a lot of these creators and and hearing customer feedback come back.
And I want to somehow harness that.
I mean I think what you're getting at is
If you buy a Catsumo product, you also get to be part of this.
media experience where people are posting their
Cats and you might post your cat and you're part of more of a community. Right. If if that becomes more of a thing.
then the competitor product
You don't get that. You know, there's not the network, there's not the community.
Then
It that's more enduring.
Um and and so sometimes it can be
the media channels and the customer feeling like oh I'm gonna get featured on the Katsuma page or
You know, w whereas uh the whatever knock off karate cat is is is just like a cheap
Product that
I buy but I'm not part of a big something bigger.
Yes, precisely.
Yeah, one other thing on the media front is you could have a Katsumo cam in the in the glove. Oh yeah it it broadcasts video of the fights and then a GoPro inside the inside the glove, yeah. Yeah, like a little camera and then it c that could that that could go into
A feed where you just have like a web page that just has a you know an endless feed of what people are doing with with um so I've done it. I I I cut a little hole in the in the head of one and then put a little insta three sixty go camera there, and I've only posted one video of it, but it performed pretty well and it is it's very entertaining to watch.
And that could be a way to build the little media network that's a that that that creates community.
That's cool.
The brand is called Catsumbo Andrew Bruce. Good luck, thanks for calling in.
Thanks so much for having me.
Okay, next up after the break, another collar with another business challenge.
I'm Guy Raz, and we're answering your business questions right here.
On the advice line.
on how I built this lab.
Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz and today I'm taking calls with BuzzFeed founder and CEO Jonah Paretti. Uh Jonah, what do you say? Should we bring our ex caller?
Let's do it. Welcome to the advice line, your arm with John Pretty.
Founder BuzzFeed. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business. Hi, guy. Hi, Jonah. My name is Melissa Bermudez, and I'm calling from Newburyport, Massachusetts. I'm the co-founder and CEO of Unrefined Foods. We make mornings easier for busy families with farm to freezer nutrition they can trust. Our frozen muffins are just like home.
made but better, loaded with stone milled organic grains, real fruits and veggies, just a little maple syrup, and they're ready to eat.
All right. Thanks for calling in. So uh Melissa and and what makes them different from I don't know like a
you know, another muffin that you would buy.
So there are not many frozen muffins in the grocery store that are ready to eat. Uh so we make everything with one hundred percent organic stone milled grains. So that means we're truly taking a wheat berry, which in our opinion is the original superfood, milling it.
keeping all the nutrition and flavor of the entire grain intact and taking that fresh flour.
Putting it in our muffins and a ton of other really great ingredients you'd use at home if you were trying to make power muffins like olive oil, again, real fruits and veggies, maple syrup, whole milk, eggs, and
Unbelievably
There's nothing else like it in the grocery store that we are aware of.
And tell me how um how long have you guys been around?
Yeah, we started just over a year ago. Um, we launched right around the holidays twenty twenty four, um, all direct to consumer and farmers markets. And we've been in wholesale for about eight months now.
And and so wholesale meaning you're selling what what kinds of stores? Are these small local co ops?
Exactly, yep.
Um small independent real retailers. We're really close to Boston, so there's a lot of home delivery services that we also sell to. Um and that's really how we want to grow. Um we we did direct to consumer as a frozen product. It's a little tricky. Um I did actually used to work in frozen meat. So the logistics of delivering are are are pretty straightforward for me.
locally. We've been able to learn a ton through that. But um to meet pretty much our our ambitious vision and goals, we really do want to grow through wholesale.
And and right now or in your first full year, how'd you guys do in sales?
We did about thirty thousand dollars in sales um in twenty twenty five. Um and that was mostly direct to consumer. Through the website. Exactly. Yep.
All right, Melissa, before we dive in further, what's your question for us?
Yeah. At a time when so many companies are competing for the attention of our target customer, busy parents, how should we think about crafting our message in a way that stands out and really importantly gets people talking?
Okay.
Uh Jonah Paretti, a lot to to think about here. Um first of all.
Thoughts or or more questions for Melissa?
How do you defrost them? Like I know, you know, the toaster
waffles and things like that, you you defrost. But like how do you defrost a muffin?
Super easily. So they're all individually packaged the way we sell them. You throw them into a lunchbox. Um, they're ready to go by snack time, or you can throw them in the microwave or the toaster, um, and and feed your family any time.
Yeah.
Cool.
Yeah, and I I uh the other thing, um I think it
Is really hard to get people to talk about muffins. You know? I know
I know people might talk about recipes and things like that, but like in terms of the idea of something going viral.
You're competing for attention f against um
You know, what what I call snarf, which is, you know, content that
Provokes
En anger and fear and is super novel and
Super high stakes and
If you want to
get organic distribution, you need to find things that are s are are pretty
novel, surprising that
Might even shock people. So it's a
It's a it's a tricky question. Like how could you make
muffins surprising and novel and polarizing and exciting to people on social media.
I I think I think it's interesting. I think w the other
challenge, but I think it's surmountable is
You're in the education business here, right? Because
There are million healthy options, right? Healthy is a a really jammed category. Healthy foods, healthy this, clean, organic.
And so just calling them healthy or clean is not gonna be enough. I think
really what you want to focus on is
I'm a parent. I couldn't
Find anything I trusted.
to feed my kids, so I had to make them myself. And then you really want to start to educate consumers about things that might seem
plainly obvious to you, but are not to
Many people in the stores, for example.
you are milling your own grains, right? And and you I think you mentioned you're using stone mills, is that right? Most people don't know that by milling grain in stone mills you preserve more of the nutrients of the wheat berry. But really what you want to do is use any channels you can, social media i ideally
to start to explain to people what's the difference between
milling a wheat berry yourself versus a a big muffin manufacturer. I would make videos
Where you see
You open up the muffin and you show people what it looks like inside and why you can deliver like you just mentioned
why you are able to deliver more nutrients as you argue.
In the form of a muffin, an easily consumable product.
than you know, just a a sugar bomb that
that somebody might be buying at, you know, Starbucks or something.
Yeah, but if you want to be a
financially successful in this venture, you should also slowly increase the amount of sugar in the muffins over time. So that you first get a reputation for being really healthy.
And then each year there's just a little more sugar, a little more, you know, it's a trend that you see again and again and again in the food space. You see this like creeping in, even of companies where the founders are are well intentioned, slowly they're like, Oh, to compete, I gotta add a little more. Yeah. Uh eventually you're eating cake.
I would not recommend that that that path, Melissa. I I think there's enough of a market. It may not be an enormous one, but enough of a market that would be interested in
what you're going after. What what I think is interesting and where you have an opportunity is your brand is called unrefined foods. It's not called muffins, right? And so I imagine that you want to use the same principle around stone ground
Grains, wheat.
Right.
And create other
other food products, right? Yeah, exactly. Crackers or cookies or
Um or other things that you would
Make out of grains. Mm-hmm. Exactly. Yeah. I like those ideas a lot. And I we have really struggled about this, like is this for kids? Is this for busy families? I the more I've been in the market, I really believe like it's also moms who are not feeding themselves in need of product like this. Um
Because yes, there's something we need to do to get folks
Talking and realizing this is for them because I know I know it's
crowded space. And I also know when I talk to our target customer, they're like, There is nothing like this. This is exactly what I need for my family. And trying to just figure out how we convey that.
for those customers are like, oh yes, this is exactly what I wanted you to be for me. Um, yeah, that's that's what we're trying to figure out.
You know, one one thought I I had was I'm looking at your
your nutritional values and you've got a lot of fiber. Over thirty percent of daily recommended fiber. Seven uh nine grams, a lot of fiber.
And if you could put that on the front of the package. So right now the package doesn't tell me
It tells me almost nothing about what you're describing. It just says stone meet milled wheat. It doesn't say
real and nourishing doesn't mean anything. Uh it would it would almost want to see like a little cartoon drawing of you on the front with like a little bubble that says I couldn't find um
nutritionally, you know, powerhouse nutri packed.
uh food. So I'm had to make it myself. And and then
Maybe on the back of the box you got a little story. Not everybody reads that, but
You may want to really emphasize the fiber on the front and
You could add protein.
I mean you could make them high fiber, high protein muffins. Think about a brand like Chomps. We've done Chomps on this show, okay? These are meat sticks. They are uh grass fed Slim Jim, right?
The guys that that create that brand
We're really targeting, you know, men who are going to the gym.
uh who wanted like a hit of protein.
The majority of their customers are moms.
on the go moms and that's what they start to see very rapidly.
So they really start to see that shift early on, and it also changed how they message the product. So of course they you know men and women are buying the products, but most of their customers are moms on the go.
Um so if you start to think about
that customer will what's gonna appeal to them. It's things like fiber and protein.
Right. And so
Yeah, low sugar.
high fiber, high protein.
I would really think about emphasizing that on the front of the box.
Yeah.
Another kind of idea is
Is there a way to do it?
to package what you're selling.
that has a little bit of novelty or uh g brings a little bit of extra value. Like for example
Could you have
Little
messages or poems or something on the bottom of the wrapper. So you drop it in your kids' lunchbox and each day they get a different little
fortune cookie or a a a muffin message on the bottom, something like that. Or could the y could the customer actually have a little tool that lets them personalize the messages so that you know and u using some kind of of printing on demand or something like that where they could, you know, have have
their muffins stamp with the message they want to send to their kids. Um
Something that makes the that adds to the narrative and the story and makes them stand out even more.
Yeah, for sure.
Melissa Bermudas, the brand is called the Unrefined Foods Company. Thanks for calling in. Good luck. Yeah, thank you so much. This has been a really special opportunity. I appreciate it.
Um, Jonah, before I let you go, a question that I ask everybody who comes onto the advice line, which is if you were you know with twenty years now of experience running this business, if you could go back to where you were in 2006 when you were just starting out BuzzFeed and you could
Give yourself some advice knowing what you know now.
you know, twenty years on, what would have been helpful for you to know back then?
Uh
I feel like advice kinda is somewhat overrated. Um
It's it's like
There's these moments in time when the world opens up and there's possibilities to create new things and they're kinda rare and you have to be in the right place and
Reading all of the I don't I'm not trying to like take a shot at some of your audience, but like like r reading everything about founders and knowing everything about like it's sometimes I've seen that lead to paralysis where people
People have trouble.
Just getting obsessed with something that they notice in their life.
And just
just throwing themselves into it'cause they're they can't help themselves'cause they're they're obsessed with it.
And I'm happy that when I was young
I got obsessed with, you know, how did things go viral on the internet and I like followed that.
That path.
There's only
You you need a confluence of something that you're truly obsessed with and an opening in the world where that thing can be something bigger.
And you know, there's a million tactical things that if I had a time machine I could, you know
Like not
Not do uh
a spAC acquisition where we take on a bunch of of debt um you know before and go public without raising capital. That would that I would tell my younger self not to do that. Um but we're digging our way out of that uh out of that particular uh predicament and um
The important thing is that you you know, you find a path that
That is truly something w where you can't help yourself doing it. Not not that you've thought about every option and are pursuing the one that you think is the best option. It's usually usually doesn't work that way.
Yeah. Jonah, thanks so much for coming on the show.
Thanks for having me. It's fun.
That's Jonah Pretti, founder and CEO of BuzzFeed. And by the way, if you haven't heard Jonah's original how I built this episode,
Uh you should go back and check it out. Give it a listen, we'll put a link to it in the show notes. And here is one of my favorite moments from that interview.
I come out and Ariana's having breakfast.
Uh so then we have our me our our meeting, she's talking about, you know what she wants to do. I don't even really remember. It just was kinda w you know, it was like she was charming and smart and you know, fun to talk to. And then a little while later she's like
Uh you have to meet Phil Angelinis, he's running for governor of California.
And then like Ariana's introducing me to Phil Angelini's. Uh but A Ariana is like is like introducing me to Phil Angelini's and he's like he should be your head of digital. You know? And I'm like what?
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I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to how I built this.