Transcript

PBS fights for its future, with President & CEO Paula Kerger

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1:20 Join us at masters of scale dot com slash apply twenty six. That's mastersofscom slash apply. Twenty six. The amount of federal money that comes into public broadcasting. is about fifteen percent.

1:38 For us, the amount of money that we would lose would be significant, but if you're in sitting in a small community and forty percent of your budget is the federal support. You probably can't make that up. This is about something that's much larger than any of us. I always say if you're looking for a guarantee, you're living in the wrong decade, because everything I think has shifted so much, and I believe that we will succeed at the end of the day. But we're gonna succeed if we are, again, constantly focused on both our values as well as the mission, and not letting that somehow get lost in in just all the noise. That's Paul Kirger, CEO of PBS, the public broadcasting service. I wanted to talk with Paul about PBS's battle to maintain government funding in the face of MAGA hostility and what if anything she can do to protect programming from Sesame Street to frontline. We dig into what she calls misconceptions about PBS, the role of corporate philanthropy in its future, its relationship with Netflix and YouTube, and more, whether or not you're an avid watcher of Nova or Ken Burns or Masterpiece.

2:51 PBS's predicament reveals critical lessons about focus, mission, and the need to evolve or die trying. I'm Bob Safian, and this is Rapid Response. I'm Bob Safian. I'm here with Paula Kerger, president and CEO of PBS. Paula, thanks for being here. Oh, thank you for giving me an opportunity to t chat with you today. This year has been a uh stressful, uncertain time for a lot of business leaders. You've had more tough choices than most

3:24 How are you doing? Uh, it's been an interesting year. I'll say that, and we're actually only halfway through it. So uh yeah, we were already in an interesting time, right? With all of the changes in media and uh and now with Washington too. It's been interesting. Yeah, I mean it it's been uh Disquieting to me that the place that You know, Brought Me Nova and Sesame Street, and so many other great shows has sort of found itself in in the Trump crosshairs, but you've been Defined as being

3:54 uh political Right? Yeah. Well, you know, in March I uh participated in uh I was invited uh to speak at a hearing hosted by the Doge subcommittee chaired by Marjorie Taylor Green, and the the title of that hearing was un American airwaves. holding the CEOs of NPR and PBS to account.

4:19 Yeah. I have heard PBS referred to in many different ways, never as un American. I I believe we're the most American of institutions. We're independent stations across the country, all locally owned, operated, governed, run by people that live in communities. Feels like America to me. What do you think? I had the CO of NPR on this show.

4:41 Just before you and she both both testified in Congress at that hearing. Was was being lumped together with NPR Was that a good thing or a bad thing for PBS? I I mean, I don't know. I mean they're largely a news organization. Um news is a piece of what we do, but it's certainly not all of what we do. People think that we're together. We we aren't exactly we just happen to you know, both serve the public and some of our stations are joint licensees. I'm always happy to sit alongside our our colleagues uh in radio. My grandfather founded a public radio station, so radio has always been in my blood.

5:17 So you know, it was it was fine to be able to talk together. Our stories are a little different because again, what we do is a little different, but uh it was an experience. I mean no, as as as I recall the Republican congresspeople in the in that hearing, they were they were pretty hostile. You must have wanted to snap back, but uh yeah, I I guess you know that you you can't when you're there. Do do you erupt afterwards? Like how how do you vent after something like that? I actually went for a run afterwards. I uh you know it's um y yeah, I mean I obviously it's it's sobering. I mean, this is uh you know, I I love our democracy. And so, you know, to be testifying and um And and to realize that I'm

6:02 I was not uh convinced going in and I certainly wasn't convinced coming out that I actually changed anyone's mind. I think everyone came into that hearing with their own ideas of who we are and what we do, and I'm not sure there was anything that I could say that it would have made a difference or not. A lot of people. I I guess misunderstand what PBS is. I mean you mentioned this three hundred some local member stations that that control their own programming. So what what's the role of PBS itself in that system? Yep. Your role. Yeah, I mean I I uh you know, since I've been in this job, I've spent a lot of time on on the road, um visiting stations. I came into it from our station in New York. I was the um I was the station manager there. And I knew a lot about public broadcasting from the lens of WNET.

6:52 Um, and I recognize for many people in this country, um I worked on an island off of the coast of North America. And so when I first took this job, I I went on the road. I went to um every state. um across the country. And I wanted to see what public broadcasting uh really look like at the ground level because people do misunderstand we're not a network. We're not like CBS or NBC. We don't control any of these stations. We were built by the stations themselves. uh to be able to uh deliver at scale The things that individual stations wouldn't be able to do by themselves. Even my old station in New York would not have been able to produce a news hour and a Sesame Street and a Masterpiece and a great performances in a nature in Nova. But if you put all of the resources together and people sort of shared in program acquisition and also shared in an ability to move content

7:45 in between stations, you actually have something that is actually the S um The S in PBS um represents the service that we provide for our public broadcasting system. And so um and so each station is independent. They make the decision what they air. I always say if you want to lessen in humility, run a federated organization because you have a lot of responsibility, but you absolutely don't have ultimate authority over a whole series of things that people assume you do. Mm.

8:17 Now federal funding accounts for uh a a a portion of your budget. Right. There are There are legislative challenges to that underway. There's an executive order that you've sued to block. I know you're hoping none of this comes to pass, but Yeah. Do you have to prepare now in case the funding goes away?

8:38 So in aggregate The amount of federal money that comes into public broadcasting. uh g is about fifteen percent. The federal money uh that we're talking about that's under debate in Congress, seventy percent of that actually goes directly to stations. And then a little bit of it comes to us. Um so fifteen percent, someone just said to me a little while ago, Well, that doesn't sound like a lot. Maybe you could make that up. If you know, for us the amount of money that we would lose would be significant. But if you're in sitting in a small community and forty percent of your budget

9:11 is the federal Support. You probably can't make that up. And this is actually why we fight so hard to try to hold on to that funding. You mentioned the name of of that hearing. And it

9:23 I mean the the impression is like Oh, PBS is uh and this funding is a conduit for a certain kind of content to be infiltrated into Some of these smaller communities as well as larger ones. Do you think there's anything you could do to sort of change the impression of PBS from this administration, change the programming, change the talent, anything do you do?

9:47 Think about that. we've always had, you know, really passionate supporters of um, you know, all across the political spectrum. So I really don't think that it's a matter of I I mean I think in some ways perhaps we're a talking point. I don't know. I when during the hearing some of the programs I was asked about are more than ten years old. And I think someone just looked through a list and pulled some titles and rather than actually understanding what it is that we have on the air. And I'll tell you, Bob, I actually just got a a note um from someone over the weekend have said, you know, I think there may be some some bias in what you do. And I said, Well, can you give me an example of what you're talking about? And many times they can't. You know, it's like well, I I just think you you know, and it and usually I think at that point they're talking about news.

10:36 Um which is you know, which is a piece of what we do. It's an important piece. We do the news every night and then we also have Frontline, which I'm I often say is the most important series we have on our air. It's so few media organizations are doing investigative journalism anymore. Um, and I know those programs have been heavily used by legislators and policy makers as well as the general public. So To me all of this feels not exactly what people have as p people have represented. I don't know. The brand of PBS. I mean, you mentioned sort of the the support, historical bipartisan support, and it's it's almost like the brand has been turned into something di to meaning something different than it that it meant in a very short period of time.

11:21 Well, you know, we've done a lot of surveys of um and we do all the time because I'm ver I take to heart our obligations to serve all of America. And I feel in this moment people have put themselves into, you know, these little bubbles where they're only getting information or interested in information that reflects back their own perspectives. And I think the role of any media organization should be to challenge people to You know, understand that people have different perspectives. We you know, we can agree that we may not agree with someone's point of view, but we can accept the fact that that's a legitimate point of view. We seem to have lost all of that. Everything has devolved into I'm I'm right and you're wrong. But at our heart, I think we agree with a lot of key

12:07 ideas and principles. And so how do we get back to that again? How do we get back to helping people understand, you know, information that is is going to be important for them for their lives. And that's but that's what we do. And when when you choose to Take legal action against the Trump administration, against the executive order. H how much do you wor worry that like, oh, there's a certain part of the country that's just gonna say, Yep, that

12:37 confirms that they're against our president. Yeah. I mean, look, I I mean those are tough decisions, right? Yeah. This was a really tough decision. And I had people um that were very anxious that we file immediately. Why haven't you filed yet? You know? And I had others that said, you know, just make sure that you really have looked at this carefully. I mean the decision to file um was not one that we took lightly, and frankly we filed with a great amount of sadness. And it was sobering to look at the first draft of our complaint Um that begins PBS V Donald J. Trump.

13:18 Um, to the fact that we would ever be in a position where we would be involved in legal action against the President of the United States is nothing that I ever thought we would be in, but the the executive order was one we had to respond to. It made it um illegal for any federal money to come into public broadcasting. This executive order would have restricted any of our stations of using any money that they receive from the government. I mean it would basically unwind our system. So we we then made the decision that we were gonna go forward, but it is not anything that I wanted to do. Even with the sort of

13:57 The more recent Supreme Court decisions that have been largely supportive of of Trump's administration's efforts m still no second thoughts about This being something you you kinda had to do. No, I I think we had to do it. I think we we had to go on the record. The executive order is in breach of the public broadcasting act. I um

14:20 I w I wanted to be spending any of our efforts, but I I could see no way around not pushing back on this executive order. H how difficult is it to run the day to day operations of PBS amid so much noise and distraction? You know, do your employees talk about the future of PBS's funding? Are you trying to tell them just just keep your heads down as much as possible? What I tell them is that this is a time when we need to be doing our best work. Because I can think of no better um argument for the support of public broadcasting, whether that's from the public or whether it's from the federal government, than by doing the work that people expect us to do. And and because I have been out talking a lot about it, I'm getting directly a lot of notes from people who talk about how important their local stations are to them. And one especially moving card from a young man who was who had just gotten his doctorate, who wrote about the fact that he grew up in a home without cable, that uh PBS was hugely important to him and that he felt that it had really shaped him and had sort of sent him on the path

15:28 uh eventually to and he was first generation in his family to you know to go to college. And so I I read those letters to our our staff and to our station managers because for me it's a reminder that we can't mess this up. This is about something that's much larger than any of us I always say if you're looking for a guarantee, you're living in the wrong decade because everything I think has shifted so much. The importance of communication and clarity and recognizing that when you don't have answers to say, you know, I don't know. Um, not making promises around things that you know that you can't necessarily deliver against. No so no false assurances, oh this everything's gonna be fine, we're gonna be fine. No, we we don't know, but we're gonna do our best, and I believe that we will succeed at the end of the day. But we're gonna succeed if we are again constantly focused on both our values as well as the mission and not letting that somehow get lost in in just all the noise.

16:28 There's not enough data, right? To to really know what the what the right decision is and you you have to sort of make a choice with incomplete information. I mean, that's certainly what we're experiencing in in twenty twenty five things are are so Volatile. It's so volatile and so fluid. And I think so many people are just not comfortable in in that kind of role. You know, uh so many of the decisions we end up making you make with your best judgment and hope that you're right more than wrong. And um and even when you're wrong, you know recognizing that fast and and you know pivoting off of it. We don't have the luxury of of being able to just coast on a lot of things that we've done in the past. We've got to be constantly just leaned forward and figuring out as we're learning things on the fly, what does that mean and how does that change the way that we think about our business.

17:22 So much of being a leader in 2025, as Paul notes, is about staying flexible, whatever crazy hand you're dealt next. So how much does PBS double down on controversial programs and documentaries? Or might the organization be better off without shows like PBS News or Frontline? We'll talk about that after the break. Stay with us. Humans will never be more intelligent than AI. Those are great at AI and those that went out of business because they weren't. How do we build a future?

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19:11 Before the break, PBS's Paula Kirger talked about hostile government attacks on the organization from Congress to the White House. Now she talks about how she's rethinking PBS's business model, what was behind Sesame Street's deal with Netflix, and whether investigative news is just too risky. Let's get back to it. Netflix picked up the the rights to syndicate Uh, Sesame Street. I'm curious if you were involved in that at all as a way to safeguard the programming. Like how much of your future business model might be

19:45 as a partner to To streamers. You know, that the the public part of public broadcasting maybe Becomes less than the Yeah. I mean, look, I'm constantly thinking about our business models moving forward. So Sesame is a really interesting example. About 10 years, maybe a little less than 10 years ago, HBO was building out its um streaming presence.

20:09 and they wanted to acquire some kids content. And so they entered into a relationship with uh with Sesame. But as um streamers now are looking at their businesses, many of them actually have really moved away from from much kids content. And Max under you know, Warner Brothers Discovery, you know, made the decision they weren't gonna continue. And so Sesame was able to to make a deal with Netflix that for us is is frankly a better deal. We have access to more of the library, we have everything available same date day and date. And I think all of that um just shows And I think for most companies, um, partnership is is part of the future. I think we all have expertise in specific areas. And if we can figure out ways that, you know, we can bring some of our our forces together. And again, that comes back to the public private partnership. You know, we're not expecting the federal government to um you know, give us all the money we need to run PBS. As I said, it's fifteen percent, but it's a critical fifteen percent. We n we take our responsibility seriously to go out and raise the rest. And a lot of that's through philanthropy, some of that's through partnership. And I think that certainly will be the case as as we look forward.

21:30 But it it's not the case where you're like I I just have to think about a future where I'm not getting any money from the From the government anymore. It you know, look, anything is possible in this environment. I think anything is possible. I mean we would look different, for sure. Um I think a number of our stations would go off the air, which I think would be very um damaging to communities. The need for information is significant. And I think with all the promise of digital media, it hasn't been fully realized. And I think there is always going to be a space for

22:05 Public media. We're not the whole answer to the information needs of of the country, but we're a significant piece and and I think as we look to partner with others, um, I think there are big opportunities for the future. These are terrible bargains to have to ask you about. But like in in trying to keep the the federal money, do you talk at all about like, oh Well, you know.

22:29 News is a flash point. Maybe we don't. do as much news programming. You know, DEI is a flash point. Like maybe we don't emphasize diversity and representation in our programming the same way. Like are those are those conversations that you have or or is it like well Then we're not then it's not our mission and we we're better off not existing at all.

22:51 I think it's a slippery slope. I have um I'm sure it's not gonna surprise you that others have said, Well, you know, maybe news is something that you could set aside, but I I mean I'm I'm really proud of the news work that we do. There are very few um in the investigative journalism business anymore. It's expensive, it's risky. There are big stories that need to be covered and someone needs to do it. But of course to meet it. Six sixty minutes is is one of the targets that Trump has gone after, which is one of those more investigative shows, right? Correct. And I and I do hope that they stay firm. Because I think that these shows are really important. And I I think that if we start to make those choices is like well, maybe we won't do news or well, maybe we won't do this. I mean that th this is why we were created, then then we don't deserve to exist. I look back over the history of public broadcasting, I mean we were created originally with this idea that the marketplace as rich and robust as it could be was never gonna be able to do everything. And you see that. I mean you saw that in cable. All these companies You know, started up, people forget that A and E stood for arts and entertainment or TLC actually stood for the learning channel. That's what it was. That's what the initial stand for, a Bravo was high arts. I mean, all of this has shifted tremendously. They started out great.

24:06 you know, with this wonderful lofty idea is we'll be just like public broadcasting we'll show them we can make it go as a commercial venture. But you m start to make different decisions. And um it's just the commercial imperative is different. I always say, you know, we're in a different business. We just happen to use the same tools. And I so I I feel now so even deeper that so much of the work that we do, including in news, where people where so many people have just retreat to places where they're just going to hear their own opinions parroted back, that we need to be in the space. We started by talking about how Uncertain twenty twenty five has been in a year for a year and and you said well we're and we're only six months in

24:49 What's at stake for for PBS right now? So right now we have pulled together um you know we've been working for many months actually thinking about, you know, different scenario planning if we have to The first trip. That I did This uh man came up to me. He said, I have a a farm uh three hours from here. He said, So I drove in because I wanted to meet you. And he said, And I wanted to tell you that I worried a lot

25:29 uh with my kids, uh raising them on the same farm that I grew up. But I knew that we had you. And I knew that because You were there for my kids. that they would have exposure to some of the things that I hoped would be important for them. And he said, and so I really want you to know

25:49 Don't mess this up. So right now I would I would hate to see us go in a in a more commercial direction. I think that the opportunity for us through some philanthropy and Through some partnerships is is probably what will propel us forward. Have you had any in engagement with

26:09 businesses with corporations about the private sector about stepping in and filling some of this gap. Uh I mean a lot of the the You know corporate executives I talk to, they're a little wary about getting on the wrong side of the administration. Has that Is doing that kind of fundraising.

26:27 Gotten easier, gotten harder. Look, fundraising is never easy. And right now, when you look at all of the other organizations that are being impacted by some of the decisions over these last months, and I think a lot about uh you know research, science research, the challenges that universities are grappling with and so forth, there are a lot of people that are looking for help and support. And so I I often have had people come to me in the last months and say, you know, isn't there some billionaire that could come in and, you know, solve your problem and make this a lot easier? And I you know, there's not a long line of billionaires waiting, but I I I think even if there were, I'm not sure that's the right idea. I mean, the thing that has always been powerful about public broadcasting is we get lots of contributions from lots of people. So when I say we're the most American, I believe that we're the most democratic organizations. Nobody owns PBS. And

27:28 I think that's very important to preserve. We've always benefited from relationships with corporations. There may be other opportunities with other media partners, and we certainly have been in those conversations. We have a great relationship with um with uh uh Google and YouTube, the place where so many people are now watching PBS so I think that there are other opportunities for us, but I I also believe that in the midst of what is a very, very difficult time we also are being forced to step back and think about are there things that we're doing that we shouldn't be doing anymore that maybe aren't as effective? And I think using this moment to um to try to to think about all of that as well as are there other partners that we should be thinking about that perhaps we haven't until now And that I think is um that is a positive of the moment. Mm-hmm.

28:21 Well, Paula, this has been great. Thank you so much for doing it. Oh, this was really fun. Thank you. In the world of commerce, when you have passionate consumers, it usually provides a competitive mode. But for PBS, that doesn't seem to matter right now. And I think that echoes a lot of fears that other brands businesses have in this unpredictable climate. The old rules about what protected us are breaking down, and we just don't know where to look for safety.

28:50 Paul's response to that is spot on, to focus on your mission and your values. The goal is to feel content and proud of the mark we've made for however long we can. Here at Rapid Response, we have no plans of slowing down, but acknowledging that our future isn't guaranteed helps us to be more present, intentional, and grateful. We're certainly grateful to you for spending your time with us. Our next episode comes out on Friday. I'm Bob Safian. Thanks for listening.

29:22 Rapid response is a wait what original. I'm Bob Safian. Our executive producer is Eve Tro. Our producer is Alex Morris. Associate producer is Mashimaku Tonina. Mixing and Mastering by Aaron Bastanelli. Our theme music is by Ryan Holiday.

29:48 Our head of podcasts is Letal Malad. For more, visit rapidresponsshow.com. Yeah.