Transcript

A more compassionate capitalism, with Cotopaxi’s Davis Smith

0:01 The very best founders I know are brilliant at building systems. They connect teams, they remove bottlenecks, and they eliminate single points of failure. And yet When it comes to their own wealth. Most are running a disconnected stack. A tax accountant here and a state attorney there, a wealth manager who doesn't talk to either one of them.

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0:53 Hey folks, Jeff Berman here. I am thrilled to share some of the new names who will be joining us at this year's Masters of Scale summit. This may be our biggest stage yet. Reed Hastings, Meredith Whitaker, Van Jones, Amjad Masad, and more. Will be there with us October 20th through 22nd in San Francisco. If you're building something great, or you want to build something great, We want you there with us too.

1:20 Join us at masters of scale dot com slash apply twenty six. That's mastersofscom slash apply. twenty six. When we launched the business and we had this twenty four hour adventure race.

1:39 We actually needed to make backpacks for everyone during the race, and we need to make it as quickly as possible. The only way for us to do it was to actually to use Remnants. Leftovers. The clock was ticking for Davis Smith and his small team at Cotapaxi, so the new outdoor gear company got to work sewing bags out of salvaged fabric.

2:03 They mix bold colors, the wackier the combinations, the better. And in that moment, the signature look for the Coda Paxi brand was born. And then we really doubled down on it. And it was like hey, what if we started making one of a kind bags? And so A huge amount of our product that we sell is one of a kind product. Every single bag. Is unique.

2:24 And you could start seeing the personality of the of the sewers and the different products. It was really a cool thing to see. Whatever they got, no matter how funky it was. They loved it. the return rate was like zero. Just over a decade later, Cuttapaxi has cemented a stellar reputation among outdoor enthusiasts and intrepid travelers with its gear and its apparel.

2:49 This week we hear from founder Davis Smith about the spark of inspiration that started it all, how he leveraged lessons from past struggles to build the Coda Paxi team. And why he stepped away from the CEO role in the midst of the company's meteoric rise. You gotta have incredible talent at every position. It's like this huge push. There are fires burning when you're going out. Can you believe it? Such an idiot. And then you go back to this is totally gonna be amazing. There are so many easy ways. I have no idea what to do. Sorry, we made a mistake. But you have to time it right. Oops, working out of a free bedroom apartment. Ten years later, but well that's just how you do it. We haven't made just how you do it.

3:36 This is masters of scale. I'm Jeff Berman. Your host. Davis Smith subscribes to philosophy that's simple enough to put on a t-shirt. And he does. He actually puts it on a t-shirt.

3:55 The Codopaxi slogan is two words. Do good. For Davis, that means the social justice mission is at the core of the company. Cuttapaxi is a B Corp. And it donates one percent of its revenue to not for profits that fight poverty.

4:11 This conscious capitalism model is driven by Davis' faith-fueled passion for helping others. That faith is also why he's taking a break from the business. Davis is currently serving his church in Brazil, and that's where he joined us for this conversation. We recorded this over video. And candidly, I sometimes struggle with our video interviews because it can be harder to create a personal connection. As I think you're going to experience here, that really wasn't the case with Davis. He's heartled, he's self-aware, he's candid, and he is a heck of a storyteller. Davis, welcome to Masters of Scale.

4:49 Thanks, Jeff. This is so fun. I've been looking forward to this. Before we get into the Codapaxi success story, I wanted to hear about the lessons Davis learned the hard way. Back when he moved to Brazil the first time. As a recent MBA graduate and tried to make a go of it in e commerce. I'd met along the way along my journey Mark Lori, who had founded a business called diapers dot com. And

5:13 I kinda watched him scale that business pretty significantly before uh Amazon bought it. And I had this interest in Brazil and I knew Mark. I kinda thought, Hey, what about a baby business down in Brazil? The internet's relatively nascent, uh, not a ton of e commerce businesses down in Brazil. And you know, I had a couple of kids and so I I knew what the pains of buying things for kids. And uh I think like a lot of entrepreneurs, it's just naivete. You know, you just you you have no idea the challenges you're gonna face. So yeah, going to Brazil w had all sorts of challenges, had never lived in Brazil, didn't speak Portuguese. Brazil's very, very bureaucratic, very complicated to do business in. And there were some challenges that we didn't anticipate. And uh, you know, the story was

5:57 Good until it wasn't good. What scale did you reach with the baby business and then what ended up going wrong? over the next two, three years grew to um maybe twenty million in in revenue. So you know the the business scaled, it grew. What we missed was there's a

6:13 Uh, there's I think a focus that needs to happen on efficiency before you go hit the gas. You need to make sure that business is actually making money. And that business, we didn't do that. You know, we we validated that there was a business, so there was a need, but we actually didn't build the efficiency that we needed to be able to be profitable as we scaled. So as as rapidly as we scaled, we accelerated losses, which meant go raise more money. And uh that's a painful process to be in. Yeah, I mean th there also are myriad stories of companies where, you know, I mean, this is Reed Hoffman and Blitzscaling, and it is pour gas on the fire and grow, grow, grow. But what I hear you saying is that

6:53 because you hadn't built the foundation exactly right. you know, when you're one degree off at the bottom, you can be twenty degrees off at the top very quickly. Is that the right way to think about the challenges that you all face? Absolutely. And you had a co founder in the baby business. Yes, my cousin. And things went sideways between the two of you.

7:14 Yeah, unfortunately. That relationship. um was really impacted. as we work together over ten years. And um honestly it's one of the saddest things uh I think in my life is just that lost relationship. I don't wanna dwell on such a sad experience for you, but I'm I'm curious if there are

7:33 lessons from the falling out there. that are useful for our audience or that you've applied as as you've gone forward in your own journey. Yeah, you know, I think one of the lessons I think I learned was You know, when you're starting a business, it's so fun sometimes to have a best friend or a family member that you can go brainstorm with.

7:54 But I think another approach to maybe starting is saying, Hey, instead of choosing my co-founder based on who I love and you know who's close to me right now, why don't I go first try to find a great idea? And then once I have the right idea, then I should go find a co-founder that really help me solve the problem that I'm trying to solve, that best person's probably not gonna be my brother or cousin or or spouse. Sorry that that happened and I'm glad you also were able to learn the lessons from that and apply them going forward. So let's talk about Codepaxi. Where did the idea come from? So you know, I'm living in Brazil and I'm having this experience, you know, building that business that was

8:33 Painful, especially this relationship that was kind of unraveling before my eyes. And my entire life I'd known I'd wanted to find a way to help people. Uh when I was 19, 20, 21 years old, I actually was a missionary for my church in Bolivia, for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. And those two years were so transformational for me. And when I was living in Brazil It was just in my face. I'm seeing every single day the poverty there. And I'm feeling so discouraged. I'm like, I why my you know, I'm thirty four at this point. I how come I haven't figured out how to use my life to help people? And uh I went into bed and I started just having some ideas come to my mind. I started writing them down.

9:13 And pretty soon I was out on the couch and I spent the next thirty six hours that entire night The next day and the next night. Where the entire idea for code paxie came to me. The colourful backpacks. Th using the business to do good, everything.

9:28 Did it feel at the time like an epiphany? Did it feel like divine intervention? How did it feel? I've never experienced anything like this in my life before. I don't know that I ever will again. I knew exactly what was happening. I wrote it all down. I have a j I have I have pages of journal from this thirty six hours. And it was for me.

9:48 It was divine. It I don't know how else to describe it, but I I knew that all of a sudden all these ex years all these years of experience I'd had that I felt discouraged and disappointed about that I hadn't found a way to help, I realized I needed all these experiences to be able to go do what I needed to do next. You know, no one wanted to believe that the the world needed another outdoor brand. Every investor I talked to was kind of like I don't why we already have Patagonia. We already have these other great brands, why do we need another brand? But I had no doubt. I knew it would work. I knew it needed to exist. And we had a few great investors that believed. Kirsten Green from Foreigner Ventures was the very first. And uh she stepped up in a big way and uh it made a big difference. And she's one of the very, very best, um, on every level. Not only a great investor, but a great human. Did you have a a love for the outdoors? Had you grown up in the outdoors? Was it something that was a personal passion? Was that part of the origin here?

10:40 Absolutely. I love the outdoors. My my dad is an adventurer and I grew up spending a lot of time in the outdoors camping, backpacking, you know, these different countries that we lived in. We you know, we made our own raft and flow to the Amazon River and fish for piranha. We'd go survive on little uninhabited islands and make our own spears and and spearfish and eat coconuts to survive. Like I just I loved adventure. I loved the outdoors. I loved travel. And so I kinda was able to merge this love for the outdoors and this passion and desire to go do good and Kind of blend these two things together.

11:14 I wanna understand what happens at the end of the thirty six hours, but two questions before we get there. One the name, how did that come to you? And then two the llama. Alright. Where did the woman come from? Yeah. So uh the name came from uh my childhood. So when I lived in Ecuador as a kid and as a teenager

11:37 I went to a school called Academia Cotopaxi. And it was this American international school named after a volcano out outside of Quito, Ecuador, this beautiful snow capped volcano. I'd go camping and backpacking there with my dad and my brother all the time. My dad was our scoutmaster. We had this little international troop and my dad is just obsessed with anything he does, he does it like all in. So like he was the best scoutmaster ever and We had so many cool adventures with these Boy Scouts, but I just loved that mountain. It meant so much to me. I loved that school experience that I had at Cotopaxi. So when I started thinking of names, it was the first name that popped in my head. And I just thought I wanted a name that connected

12:16 to my life experience and to the outdoors and so it felt like the perfect name. And then the llama. The first place I saw llamas in the wild was on uh was actually at the base of Cotopaxi. We were camping, we just moved to Ecuador from Puerto Rico, where I'd spent some other years as a child and It was just magical. We woke up. We we're out making breakfast on the campfire and these llamas just started walking through our campsite

12:44 And it was just You know, I I'm a I think I'm maybe eleven years old at this time and it's like For an eleven year old, a llama, I mean, that's just one of those magical moments you just never forget. And you know, they're mysterious, they're rugged, they're They're always in a herd, they're always together, they're never by themselves. And so I just thought what a great mascot for a brand that's all about united together, let's go make the world a better place. And uh so yeah, it's I I love the llama. Still ahead, how Davis scaled Cotopaxi and its global impact on extreme poverty.

13:28 Humans will never be more intelligent than AI. There can be two types of companies. Those were great at AI and those that went out of business because they weren't. How do we build a future? That is human centered. I'm Rana El Chayubi.

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14:58 How do you go figure out your founding team and then how do you go find the money? How did you get the funding? Yeah, so uh I started looking online for the founding team and this is where I was like, I'm gonna do it differently this time. And so I went onto LinkedIn and I just started looking for experts in the outdoor industry, people that had been award winning designers of product. I reached out to a few of them on LinkedIn and they responded and Somehow they they believed. They believe in this vision of building a brand that could make the world better, where we'd use our profits to fight poverty alleviation and

15:32 So we built a small little team. I I've ended up resigning from my role there at my business in Brazil and Move back to the US and Flew into Utah, I decided to build it there. I felt it was a great place to build a business in the outdoor space and the small group of five of us, we met in a mountain cabin. And I kind of laid out the vision for what I wanted to build. And those are just the most fun moments for any entrepreneur, that early visionary stage where nothing's been built but like the world

16:01 is yours, you know, to go do whatever you want to do and You know, it was just a magical moment, a magical time. And it you know, took a few months, but we started making our first product and we We ended up launching the business in a very, very unique way. That blast of the business off in a way that I never could have imagined.

16:18 Tell us about that. You know I love llamas, so uh we actually went and we bought a couple llamas on The online classifieds. As one does. As one does. And we started going around college campuses in Salt Lake City with all these llamas. And uh We told everyone that we were launching this new outdoor brand, Adventure Brand. And we were launching with this twenty-four hour amazing race style event, this huge scavenger hunt type of event where you formed a team, everyone that did the race would get one of these Cotopaxi backpacks.

16:51 And they had twenty four hours to go get as many points as possible. And you got points from doing also all sorts of different adventures in the outdoors or service in the community. They were all living the brand for twenty four hours and they we had thirty thousand social media posts in that first twenty four hours of our launch. And people were out living the brand, wearing our product, taking pictures of it, and sharing it on social media and The winning teams got some trips and some gear and that night when we were celebrating on stage with five thousand people All wearing the product.

17:24 all like waving these little do good flags like it was just It was surreal. I couldn't believe it was actually happening at the same time. It felt divine, like it was divinely inspired. And so I I I felt like uh yeah, of course this is working. It's beautiful.

17:40 How did you fund the business to get it started? Yeah, so that's where You know, I think having some experience raising some venture capital really made a difference for me. And so I was able to go to Silicon Valley and I met I actually met with a hundred I I have a list of every investor I've ever met with. And at this point I have Around a thousand. people and I trust me, I've been rejected a lot. I've gotten really very good at rejection. My mission experience as a nineteen year old kid really

18:04 prepared me for a lot of the rejection that I I dealt with as an entrepreneur. Just to be clear for those who don't know. As a missionary, you're literally knocking on doors and having doors slammed in your face multiple times a day. Right. Absolutely.

18:18 You know, if you're not resilient, it can really beat you down. And but it's I think what keeps you going is a belief. A deep belief that what you have matters and it's worth sharing. And so I felt the same thing about Codopacks. It was like this matters. I don't care how many people reject me. This needs to exist. And so we ended up with a handful of investors that invested, like I mentioned, Kirsten Green from Foreigner Ventures and a handful of other amazing people that stepped up and Some of my friends from business school, like the Warby Parker founders, uh The founders of Harry's and

18:51 Uh Andy Dunn from Bonobos and uh you know some other founders that put a little bit of money as well, and it was enough to kinda get the business started. And but we they gave us money before I'd sold the single backpack. So it was really You know, a belief in me and a belief in this vision that we had. And we talk a little bit about the mission of the company beyond, I mean, because this thirty six hour sprint in which the vision for the company on spools is inspired by this

19:18 Personal mission. This need. to do good in the world, to fulfill your own potential to change other people's lives. So will you talk a little bit about the mission of the company and how that fits with running it as a business?

19:32 So the mission that we have is to eradicate I I believe that it's possible to eradicate extreme poverty in my lifetime. In eighteen twenty two hundred years ago, ninety four percent of the world was living in extreme poverty. And when I was born, it was around 40%. Now it's under 10%. So we are eradicating extreme poverty, and I want to be a part in this movement of showing that business can be a force for good. Capitalism can be done better than it has been. Uh it's this amazing tool that's lifted so many out of poverty, but it's a little broken. You know, there's uh there's things that aren't quite right about it. And so what can we do better? And I really believe there's a way to help take capitalism in this better direction. And so that was the vision for this brand. And so we're we donate one percent of all of our revenues, which to be clear, uh a lot of times is uh many years that was actually more

20:23 Than we made. We maybe weren't even making money, but we were still giving money away. You know, as we all know, I think people that don't understand business think, Oh, that's like nothing, you know, one percent, that's nothing. But if Amazon did that, that I think that's like all that'd be all their profit or something, you know? So it was a big commitment and investors really had to buy into it. But we've done it every year and it's core to who we are. It's why we exist. We are not an outdoor brand or a backpack brand. We are a brand that does good. We're a brand that shows that capitalism can be done better, and we happen to make really amazing and great outdoor and adventure gear to do it. And your setup is an E Corp, is that right? Yeah. This was another thing that like I I I had reached out to our attorney uh before we started the business and I said, Hey, I'm thinking about this new business. And

21:04 I know that the Warby Parker team just converted to a benefit corporation. What do you think about me starting as a benefit corporation and he he actually said I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't recommend it. I'm not aware of any business that started as a benefit corporation. This is in twenty fourteen and that has raised venture capital. Investors might not be very interested. You know, Warby Parker, they already have a brand. They're people are excited about them. They can kind of do what they want, but it's like I wouldn't recommend it. I just felt so strongly about it. It's like if if I'm not gonna do this For that reason, for the right reason. And now if there's investors that don't want to invest in us because of that, that's not the right investor for me, anyways. And so we incorporate it from Inception as a benefit corporation, became a B a certified B Corp a year later.

21:43 And that was uh almost ten years ago. And then how do you decide where the one percent of profits go? What's your process for figuring out how to make sure that that that money is being spent as optimally as possible? Well, I there was a learning curve. You know, when we started the business, uh I was the one that oversaw our impact work because I was I was so passionate about it. And I'd been involved in some nonprofits around the world and in Latin America specifically that I was really excited about. Uh, for example, there was an orphanage that I visited. and would frequently visit when I was in Bolivia as a missionary. I went there on Christmas Day. It was uh my first Christmas away from my family. I was incredibly lonely and and sad and kind of honestly probably a little self absorbed thinking about myself and

22:24 You know, how much I miss my home and That afternoon uh a couple of other missionaries had organized for us to go over to this orphanage and After going there, it was like how could I possibly feel Sorry for myself. Like what a gift to be here. So that orphanage meant a lot to me. And so that was one of the first places we started helping. And we had a few other places that I was really passionate about. But uh year into the business, we I I hired a chief impact officer and she came in, she worked for Salesforce, and she basically said, Okay, tell me about how you're doing this. And I said, Oh, I was so proud to tell her about this orphanage. And she's like,

22:56 That's horrible. She's like, so wait, how you just send the money? Like you just send the money, like how do you know what they're doing with it? It's like well, they're nuns. Like the nuns aren't gonna, you know, do anything wrong with the money. She's like, You have no idea. You don't know how are you measuring the impact? And she was right, you know, I had no idea what I was doing. And so she helped us build And you know, we invest it. We had a chief impact officer before we had a chief marketing officer. Our board was like Davis, like are you sh like, why are we spending money on someone who you know, telling you how to give away the money, like let's focus on making more money and, you know, selling selling more stuff. But I just felt so strongly If we don't get this right, nothing else matters in this brand. We've got to do the impact right. We've got to be best in class. We've got to do this better than anyone has ever done it. And if we can do that, then this brand matters and people will buy the product.

23:42 Yeah. I wanna Just go back for a minute because we're in an era The last

23:49 let's call it forty years or so. It's relatively new in the Scope of American capitalism. Where Almost every company is optimizing just for shareholder value.

24:02 Right. The job is shareholder value. That is it. And there is not a consideration or there is diminished consideration of stakeholders, whether that is members of the team, or that is the local community, or that is the environment, or that is eradicating extreme poverty in our lifetime. You noted and I think it's impossible to argue

24:25 The counterpoint. that while capitalism is undoubtedly, in my view, the best and most impactful economic system we've ever created. It's also deeply flawed. And we're suffering from a lot of the consequences of capitalism now.

24:41 So How do you think about it when you're talking with other founders, other CEOs? when you're engaged in these conversations How do you engage the conversation around a more conscious capitalism? beyond leading by example and building a world class company that is doing so much good in the world.

25:00 How do you talk about it in a way that opens people's eyes to what They and their companies can also be doing. Yeah, you know, I I think what you said is actually the most powerful way to do it, though. It's it's actually being that visionary leader. I've been on a lot of stages speaking about code Paxi. I rarely talk about our product. I almost never. I almost never talk about a our product. I just talk about what we represent and what we stand for. And I'll tell you, people care. It touches people. People want. Humans are good.

25:30 Humans are good by nature. People want to do good. They want to make the world a better place. Sometimes they're just not sure how. And so when they hear an example of someone that's doing their best to do it, and look, we're not gonna be perfect. And I honestly, like, I can't wait for this next generation of entrepreneurs that are gonna do it way better than we're doing it. And they're gonna hopefully learn from all the things that We're doing okay and the things that maybe we could have done better. But like I think that's the most powerful way to affect change is to be inspiring, to be visionary. I think that's mainly the way that I've approached helping other entrepreneurs do good. And I can say there's been a lot of CEOs, friends, people that have become friends that have approached me and said, Hey, we're thinking a lot about how we can do good. Help me think through this. And uh I'm not a an maybe the world's best expert, but I love this topic. And so I'd love to talk about it. And if entrepreneurs can find something they're really passionate about and find a way to weave it into their business and to how they're building the business, that's it becomes very, very powerful. And you know, to your point too, Jeff, like we have a responsibility to shareholders and also to stakeholders, but even to shareholders, yes, I want to, I want to give them a great return. I want them to have a great return. And I don't think we have to compromise. What I believe is that when you do business the right way, when you do it better, it saves so many other costs. You can attract and retain cal talent in a way that no one else can. Our marketing costs are less than what other brands because

26:48 There's word of mouth doing it for us. Our product, you know, we've made we've sold five million backpac made of remnant leftover repurposed material from other outdoor brands. It's their leftover scraps. Guess what? That material costs less than if we were making it from scratch and it has a much lighter impact on the world. And so there's all these benefits from doing things the right way. And I really believe uh that if you're doing things right it'll end up coming back and you'll end up having a more profitable business in the end as well.

27:18 You stepped aside from dignity leadership of the company. Can you tell us why and what you're doing right now? Yeah, um, you know, honestly, one of the hardest things I've ever done because of how much I love Codopaxi. It wasn't just a job for me. It was a calling and I felt a deep stewardship over this brand and

27:38 At the same time, I think there was a combination of factors. One being that I may not be the best CEO forever. You know, I think I did a good job taking a business from zero to around a hundred fifty million in revenue and There's probably better leaders that can take it. To the next level. There was that element.

27:55 I bought Part of it was uh you know, my church came to me and and they asked if if we'd my wife and my family and I would consider leading a mission in Brazil for three years and putting aside our life, our our business and

28:09 It took about one second uh for my wife and I to say yes. It's not that it was so easy to to do, it was very hard, but it was an easy decision because It was so aligned with our values and what aligned with what we knew mattered most. And so we sold our house and we moved here and our daughter do her senior year in high school here. She's the only American in the school. And our you know, two little boys here are are they picking up the language and just loving Brazil. And it but it wasn't an easy move. And I I miss my work at Coda Paxi every day. And at the same time I love what I'm doing here. It is so fulfilling. Uh, I find so much joy in in being here, even though it hasn't been easy. It's been, I think, one of the most fulfilling things I've ever done with my life.

28:52 Davis, when you accepted the call to go back to Brazil and lead a mission. You had to replace yourself. As CEO of the company. How did you go about doing that?

29:03 You know, so when I I remember when I started Codopaxi, you know, met with a small group of people in this little cabin in Utah and told them, you know, my vision. I remember telling them. I think we need to build something that's bigger than any of us because I'm not gonna be the right CEO forever. And so I'd always kinda known that in the back of my head, even though I wanted to be. I really did want to be the CEO for it because I loved it so much. But what I looked for in my replacement was someone that first of all was aligned with our values that really understood why we were building this and what mattered most. I wanted someone that would stay true to that. And then of course someone that had much more experience than me, that had taken something from our scale and had built something much bigger.

29:43 And the way that I went through that process was I I actually I shared it on social media that I was looking for somebody and you know, went through a process of finding, you know, some really amazing people. And so uh it's not easy to replace as a as a founder, because you just you're so deeply connected to what you built. And at the same time, it wasn't hard to see that there were other people much more qualified than me. Uh, I think what I maybe had that no one else could really replace was just the deep passion for why we were building it. And so I think no matter what as a founder, it's important to stay connected. And even though I'm I'm very far away, I've I've tried to do that. I've remained on the board. I talk

30:23 you know, frequently to our team members, uh, especially the CEO and so I think that's a really important part of it is like not just totally walking away and how could I? How could I want to feel so passionately about what we've built? Uh, but you know, it's it's not always perfect and you learn lessons uh in that transition as well. Davis, what happens after your mission? Do you go back to Codopaxi? Do you go do something new? Do you know yet? I uh you know, I don't know yet. I'm halfway through, so I've got another year and a half, but I'm at that point where the first year and a half I didn't have time to even breathe, it felt like. So I didn't really think about it much, but starting to get the point where it's like, okay, I I maybe need to think about what's next and You know, I suspect I'll probably go back to Codapaxi and not as a CEO. I think I've I've given that role up and I'm I'm okay with that now. Maybe play an executive chairman kind of role where I can still be very involved in our mission and our purpose and the culture. I love culture and

31:18 And so I think that's what I'll do. I I I think there's certainly work I'm gonna do on the on the impact side. I love working with young people. Like I'm here overseeing all these A few hundred young missionaries. I'm I'm helping scale the next generation of world changing leaders. And I am so excited to see what all they're they're gonna do. So I think I'm gonna be doing a lot of mentoring.

31:38 for the rest of my life of these young these young kids that are just changing the world down here. Davis, it's a real pleasure and honor to get to speak with you and Thank you for all you're doing in the world. grateful for your leading by example and the the impact that you're you're having on people's lives. Jeff thank you. Thank you for inviting me and thank you for telling people stories so beautifully. І із іпасо.

32:04 To come away from a conversation with Davis Smith and not feel at least a little bit inspired. He went from introducing his brand by wandering college campuses with llamas. To making hundreds of millions in revenue all in the span of one decade. His story is a tremendous example of what's possible when you lead with creativity and compassion. I'm Jeff Berman.

32:29 Thank you for listening. Masters of Scales await what original. Our executive producer is Eve Tro. Our senior producer is Trisha Bobida. The production team includes Tucker Legurski, Masha Makatanina, Brandon Klein, Timothy Lou Lee. Our senior town executive is Stephanie Stern.

33:04 Mixing and mastering by Aaron Bastanelli and Brian Q. Original music by Ryan Holiday. Our head of podcasts is the tall Malad. Visit mastersofscale.com to find the transcript for this episode and to subscribe to our newsletter.