Transcript

Music biz at a crossroads: from Taylor Swift to AI, with Sowmya Krishnamurthy

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1:20 Join us at masters of scale dot com slash apply twenty six. That's mastersofscom slash apply. Twenty six. We're really at a crossroads because as it is right now, record labels are almost catalog companies. Like they're just amassing money from back catalog, actively signing new artists, developing them, investing in them. That doesn't seem to be the ethos and what kind of industry, music business, or otherwise. can rely on being a catalog industry. That's essentially a nostalgia industry, something that's looking at the past versus looking at the future. And to me the VMAs were kind of indicative of that.

2:11 That's Somya Krishna Murthy, a music journalist whose work has been featured from rolling stone to billboard to NPR. Just hours after the conclusion of MTV's 2025 Video Music Awards, I talked with Someja about the business and cultural lessons from the show and what it reveals about the state of the music industry. Somewhere also talks about Taylor Swift, AI and music, and the latest twists in the streaming war between Spotify and Apple. There's plenty of catchy stuff to hummelong to, so let's get to it.

2:43 I'm Bob Safian, and this Із рапід респонс. So it is the morning after the VMAs, the M T V Video music awards, a key moment in the music industry calendar, broadcast on CBS for the first time, hosted by LL Cool J and

3:06 What did you think? Yeah. Well, I'm gonna be honest with you. I did not watch it. I this shows you I think where we are in sort of the relevance of the MTV VMAs. I watched them on little clips on social media, which I think is very twenty twenty five, don't you agree? Absolutely.

3:27 You know, we gotta go back, Bob. When I was growing up, I remember so clearly from about 630 to eight o'clock, I was glued to the television on the night of the VMAs. That was the red carpet, everyone walking down, what were people wearing, who was with who. Eight to eleven was the show. Somewhere in you would have to get dinner because your mom would be yelling at you. And then eleven to eleven thirty was the after show, but we watched it so voraciously'cause the next day at school or the water cooler and Everybody was talking about it. The VMAs really were about these incredible music moments, pop culture moments. I mean, who can forget like the Britney Madonna kiss or Beyonce revealing she was pregnant? But fast forward to 2025. The MTV VMAs, first of all, being on CBS, I think tells you everything you need to know about this once like edgy, rebellious, cool show. Talking about music videos, which Everyone kinda watches on their phone. And you know, I just like so many people. I caught little clips, I read a lot of the recaps, but I was overwhelm I'm underwhelmed because it really just felt like

4:37 It was a very safe show, a very kind of you know, family friendly sanitized show. And there were so many opportunities to do something interesting or something that really would push through the noise or reflect just where we are as a society. And like L L Cool J I mean he's great, but it's not exactly on the cutting edge of Pop culture, but I guess that's not what the VMAs are. Four anymore? You know, it's so interesting. I you know, I was trying to think, okay, who is the demographic?

5:08 And I would say probably about 17 to 25 is like that real sweet spot. But you know, for people like myself in the industry, we should still be tuned in. And I can say honestly, my timeline, no one was talking about it. And the only people I even saw in attendance is because they had clients there. You mentioned L and the way he started the show, he essentially told people the audience. The artist like today is going to be about the music. Like he didn't say don't be political, but he, you know, said don't be political. And I thought that was so interesting, especially given the CBS lawsuit following the Donald Trump lawsuit and that settlement. I just thought to myself, We're in such an era now, there's so much going on that affects young people, and they're passionate. They want to talk about it. And the fact that a show is saying from jump, Yeah, we don't talk about that. Tonight it's about being happy and having fun. And to me, that just set the tone. It was a very pop night. Like it was a lot of like women and pop and you had and Ariana Grande and Sabrina Carpenter, like all the big names came out. And like you said, this weird generational tension. You have LL Cool J, then like Buster Rhymes performing.

6:23 Ricky Martin getting an award, Mariah, who are all icons, but I grew up with them and I just wonder to a seventeen year old now. I know, it's not let's not date ourselves, Bob. Come on. And You know, I do think that's the other one. It's important to always, you know, respect the elders, respect the OGs, but is that also a reflection of the fact that the brand doesn't know who it's catering to? In my mind, it's always like a room full of people just like throwing ideas at a bulletin board and saying, Yeah, this is not like this is what the kids are doing, right? And Again, it's s sort of like if you try to cater to everyone, you end up catering to nobody. So I'm not sure who this show was really for. They want to get that TikTok audience. Like they were very much trying to speak to a lot of the Stan armies and getting them to watch and vote and be a part of it. But also those kids don't watch television.

7:16 I mean you mentioned the sort of sanitized feel of it all. Yeah. Is that Like Does that reflect anything about the music industry and the music business right now? I mean, is is that becoming more sanitized because of this environment we're in, or is this just CBS?

7:33 I think it's the music business. Anytime we talk about art versus commerce, it's always that very tenuous balance. And right now, commerce is winning, whether it be the fact that you know tech companies are really at the forefront of pushing music, record labels. admittedly, are not really signing unheard of acts, wanting to develop them. It's all about follower numbers, engagement, and clicks. So in that realm, I think it's really just about who advertisers like, who's being sponsored and who can make money. I feel the music biz is kind of in a slump. And I think one of the reasons is because artists just are afraid to take those risks. And not everyone, but I mean by and large, we're just in this era where everyone wants to be a brand first and an artist second.

8:21 Hm the VMA's had a bunch of high profile sponsors, Picardy Burger King, Under Armour but I noticed that the streaming platforms were like Abs Is there still a streaming war going on in music, or have we just settled into like Spotify, Apple Duopoli and you know They're just let things ride. And I think there was such a missed opportunity with YouTube because that's where people are consuming music videos for a very long time, probably much to the chagrin of MTV and similar channels. That's the way that

8:55 music videos are consumed and shared. I mean, some people, especially in other countries, they use YouTube as their DSP. They're not even going to a Spotify or Apple. Oh, I want to hear that song. Let me go to YouTube. And that's the way that they're consuming music. Now you mentioned their D S P their their digital pro provider for music being YouTube versus Apple and Spotify. How does TikTok play into that? I mean, it's changed how new music breaks out. It's kind of a new distribution network. I I know it's a puzzle a lot of industries, not just the music industry are trying to try to figure out how to play.

9:31 I think TikTok is very interesting because Initially, I think the industry really saw it as a place for music discovery. You would hear about artists going viral on TikTok and off not even one record, like a segment of a record, like 10 seconds, and they were getting record deals. But what has happened with TikTok as well as so many other of these social media platforms. It's very quickly just become e-commerce. Like I feel everything is about buy this, buy this, buy this. And with a TikTok store, that integration is right there. And to me, that has nothing to do with music. What I say about TikTok is I think the industry should just view it as a discovery platform, but by no means should that replace actually seeing an artist perform, them having an actual discography before getting a record deal. being able to see them live, like these things still matter. And I think those are aspects with a lot of new artists that are missing. One cool thing I will say is TikTok oftentimes introduces a new generation to classic records. So we all remember

10:36 What happened with Fleetwood Mac and Dreams. I think that's great. So I think for a lot of artists, they're really getting second and third and fourth lives because of the music discovery um aspect of TikTok. But I always tell the music business like we cannot outsource our ears to technology. Technology, algorithm, followers, that still doesn't tell you is this artist good? Is the music good? Like that should be a taste thing. And that, in my opinion, still comes from people. And the music business is so quick, whether it's through AI. or algorithms or social followings like that equates quality and it really doesn't. Now one act that did not appear at the VMAs, the Velvet Sundown. Now the Velvet Sundown is, of course, an AI generated group or music, I don't I don't quite know what to what to call it. This is a big question, but like how is AI impacting the music industry? I mean, I know in Hollywood AI is almost like a like a dirty secret, you know, detect d directors are using it, but they're wary of talking about it.

11:40 Is that the same in music? I think the problem with AI in the music business. It essentially enables people to just not work with human beings anymore. I can create this ideal group or band or rapper or singer. And they don't have all those pesky little feelings and thoughts that human beings have. They don't need to take breaks. They don't have any, you know, political inclination. So they're perfect for brands. Like it's literally made to sell stuff. And at that time when music seems so disposable and forgettable. I just don't feel as an industry we should be running to replace human beings. And everything I've seen, whether it's the group you mentioned or recently they did um

12:22 Rick Biotto did a piece, I believe, on CBS this morning, that they created like a female indie singer. And I just thought to myself, like, no one thinks it's creepy a room full of men creating a young woman singer like This can't go wrong, right, guys? Like you just know where this is gonna be taken, and it's not in a good place. And I just feel like as an industry, Of course, be on top of the technology, be cognizant of it, but we should be investing in human beings or using AI to help them versus replacing them. You know, I find it's hard for me to To gauge like how healthy the music industry is as a business. You know, like which metrics to follow, like billboard charts or spotify down. Are there things that you pay attention to

13:12 specifically I pay attention to a few metrics. Uh absolutely looking at the billboard charts and seeing which artists as well as which genres are represented. I also look at, you know, especially the companies that are public when they do their quarterly calls or their annual calls. But being in the music business, I can tell you behind the scenes like right now is a very dire time. probably ninety percent of the people I know are unemployed right now. There have been massive layoffs. over and over again at record labels, at tech companies. And it's a very jarring juxtaposition because on one hand, you'll see the the public announcement, this label had an amazing year, banner year, we're so happy with our artists.

13:56 And by the way, we're cutting 10% of our staff, or we're cutting 30% of our staff. And to me, that is not the sign of a healthy industry. It doesn't matter if the top one percent are doing well, if 99% are suffering and failing. And that's where I feel we're right now in the music business. Whether it's an artist, the top one percent are doing amazing. But talk to the other ninety nine percent, the pennies that they're getting every month from streaming. We're really at a crossroads, and it's very much The future of it is uncertain because as it is right now, record labels are almost catalog companies. Like they're just amassing money from back catalog, actively signing new artists, developing them, investing in them. That doesn't seem to be the ethos. And what kind of industry, music business, or otherwise Can rely on being a catalog industry. That's essentially a nostalgia industry, something that's looking at the past versus looking at the future. And to me, the VMAs were kind of indicative of that. And right now, to me, the industry seems to be at a bit of a standstill. And I don't think AI or technology is going to solve this problem.

15:04 You're talking about the one percent. I of course uh start thinking about Taylor Swift the buzz over her engagement to Travis Kelsey, anticipation for her new album release coming up. Does the world of Taylor like Dwarf everything else these days? I mean, I think she's somebody who is a

15:24 Pop superstar in an industry that doesn't really have a lot of them. Anytime there is this success story, like they like to prop it up. Like, look how great the industry is doing. I think she's a great case study of someone who's been very adept at starting in one genre, pivoting into another. and really being savvy about her business and how she's operating on you know her level when it comes to her masters, her music, her image. It's very curated. She's very much in charge, which I think is great. But you know, she's also an anomaly. And for one, Taylor Swift. very few other artists can do what she does. My always hope with people like her or those in similar positions is creating a new blueprint for other artists or opening doors for other creatives because she has that power. She has that leverage. I mean I would love to maybe see her own label one day or publishing company signing unsigned artists or songwriters and helping develop them. Like I think as she gets older, she could take on a very

16:29 Interesting role as an executive. And I think a lot of artists would really respect her for doing that. But I think right now it really is, she's in album mode. And we know one of her strategies is doing like various versions of the same album. I just heard the like target version just get announced. Like she's guaranteeing herself like a number one album. Like that's not a secret. But to me, it's sort of as an industry, we can't just rely on that because It's not a business model that can be replicated by anybody, but maybe, you know, Taylor, Beyonce. Maybe Kendra there's only a handful of people who can emulate what she does. It's so specific to her. Taylor Swift is certainly the alpha in music right now, but as Sony points out, the music business is all about change, and nothing is guaranteed in the future. So what are the trends we all should be keeping our eyes on, and what kind of impact is AI having on what we listen to? We'll talk about that more after the break.

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19:23 I hope to see you there. Before the break, music journalist and author Sonja Krishnamurthy broke down the most impactful takeaways from Sunday's VMAs. Now we talk about music's cultural impact on other industries, how AI is infiltrating the airwaves, and whether any artists entrepreneurs are poised to become the next Jay-Z. Let's dive back in. So I w I wanted to ask you about hip hop, which I know is one of your passions. It's come a long way from its renegade roots. Our listeners are are primarily business leaders.

20:00 What do business leaders miss about hip hop and and how it's shaped consumer culture and and I guess how it's maybe still shaping consumer culture in a way that's not being paid attention to. Hip hop really has Shaped and influenced culture across the board from music to fashion. Лифстайл, спорт. The music, the slaying, how people dress, how they walk, how they think, this has permeated every facet of culture.

20:30 Unfortunately, even though hip hop is over fifty years old, so technically it's a middle aged man. Even though it's in that life stage, it's still oftentimes treated as a niche art form. It's marginalized and I think there's a lot of you know historic reasons for that you know, racial reasons for that. Like it's just still sort of we want to ex extract the cool from it, but we don't want anything else that actually has to do with it in a meaningful way. And I think you look at, you know, you turn on the TV how many commercials have like, you know, Biggie in the background or Tupac song. Brands want that cool factor, but

21:07 sometimes they don't understand in a meaningful way. And just throwing a Drake song on your brand's, you know, social media page or using hip hop slang in your social media content. That doesn't mean it's cool. Like and in fact People who are Fans of the culture, they live this, they can sort of spot that out pretty quickly. So I feel like the commercialization of hip hop is probably at its apex right now. A lot of companies are throwing money at artists and sinking records and utilizing parts of the culture. But how many are actually reinvesting it or having a long term investment in a meaningful way?

21:46 That's up for debate. You wrote a book about hip hop's impact on on the fashion. New York Fashion Week is coming up. Is hip hop still impacting the fashion? Is it taking it forward the way it once did, or You know, are they sort of more I don't know, the more intertwined in a certain way. Yeah, I think high fashion specifically.

22:08 Is really leaning on hip hop because you know, designers, even historically, whether it's like a Gianni Versace or Tommy Hill figure, they want to know what the young, cool kids are doing. And especially in places like New York and LA, Miami, Tokyo, Atlanta, like that's where they want to see what are young people doing? How do they dress? How do they talk? And right now brands are still going to hip hop. Again, I think they are more so going to what they think are like the safer bets. So they are going to people who are more established. You look at someone like Pharrell, who has his position at Louis Vuitton.

22:44 You look at something like Chanel, who recently partnered with Kendrick Lamar. So they are going to these big superstars where I think they feel like they're gonna get the guaranteed eyeballs and clicks and engagements, but absolutely compared to every other genre, hip hop artists are the ones sitting front row at Fashion Week. You see them all over the Mad Gala. I mine as I mention in my book. Back in the day, it was like Little Kim and Puffy were the first art rappers at the Met Gala, and now they're everywhere because somebody like Anna Wintour knows that this is a demographic that maybe Vogue may not reach organically. But you can get these artists to post something on Instagram or live stream it, and it keeps these sort of heritage institutions young and relevant to the new generation. That relevance is so hard for these heritage businesses. And yet at the same time, it scares them.

23:40 Right. Like they want that that That relevant but they're also worried, you know, that it's gonna wash over them in some way that they can't control. I mean again it's all a business. So you always have to think about your corporate stakeholders, shareholders, luxury itself, luxury fashion is very much always trying to figure out how to stay relevant. Maybe not culturally relevant, but commercially. And some of these biggest brands now, they're making more money selling, let's say, a nail polish or keychain or a lipstick at let's say$150 or$200 than you know selling an outfit at

24:19 ten thousand dollars because the luxury consumers also very much evolving. And there is that schism between sort of quiet luxury and the, you know, we don't talk about what designers we wear, but houses, they want you to show off that logo. In the beginning, hip hop artists and those from the culture, they wanted to wear these high fashion brands, but they either couldn't afford it, or if they did go into those stores, they weren't welcome. This was the rise of people like Dapper Dan, who would basically create these DIY creations using a logo of let's say a Gucci or Louis Vuitton or Fendi to make something for the hip hop generation. Then as time went on in the 90s and the aughts, hip hop became the consumer. And now we're in an era where hip hop is really the collaborator, where artists are working with these lines, they're the face of the line, they're the creative directors of these lines. But I think for luxury fashion, they're constantly trying to juggle all these balls of getting new fans. Not alienating their old fans, not offending their political connections, not offending the stockholders, but I promise we're still cool, guys. Like we're still cool.

25:28 And we're expensive, so you should want us. And there's that aspirational element, but don't worry, if you want that hundred dollar keychain, we'll sell that to you as well. Like there's a lot of things going on for these brands to stay relevant and also financially viable. From a business perspective, is there a next generation of artist entrepreneurs who should be on our radar, like heirs to Jay-Z and Rihanna and so on? You know what's interesting. Had you asked me this question even like Two years ago, I would have given you a laundry list because I think specifically Rihanna and then later Selena Gomez, they created a blue artists. Becoming hyphenates in the fashion space and the beauty space. So specifically with Fenty Beauty and Rare Beauty, which are two of the most successful artist turn beauty lines. But so many artists try to release like sort of their version of that.

26:24 And there were more flops than wins. So I think for artists right now, I'm sure they get so many deal offerings of hey, you should sign on to be the face of this skincare line or beauty line or liquor line. Like they're constantly getting opportunities. But I would really say they need to vet these opportunities, do what makes sense for them in an organic way, and what they're ready to commit to. I think there's nothing worse than when you see an artist becoming the face of some brand and it's totally inorganic. Like the consumer now is more savvy than oftentimes businesses give us credit for. And they can tell, like this person doesn't use the skincare line, or this person has never talked about their love of tequila. All of a sudden it's a picture of them holding like an agave plant. Like we know you don't drink. So this was clearly a way to get like the second yacht or the fifth mortgage. And it's all about right now there's a proliferation of opportunities. Everyone wants to be seen as a business person, as a founder. Like these are like the buzzwords that people want to see. Like artists want to be on the cover of Forbes more than on the cover of Rolling Stone.

27:33 It is what it is. Like they want to be seen as business people. But to be seen as a business person, you have to know business or at least partner with people who know what they're talking about and make a real commitment. And I think that's why people like Jay-Z. Even Kanye at his height Puffy Dre, like all of their business extensions made sense. You wanted to buy headphones from Dr. Dre because he was supposed to have like golden ears as a producer. You probably wouldn't buy his tequila, but I think this is where the artists have to see what actually fits with them and what they're willing to learn about. Talk about and not just sell something for the sake of selling something. Mm. I mean one one of the ironies I I find is that, you know, the

28:20 The artists who are the best business people in some ways. Like Whatever, Taylor Swift, right? She doesn't want to be called a business person. She wants to be called an artist. And often when I talk to these artists and I try to get their business stories, they don't really want to talk about them. Um, and yet there are other artists who are scrambling to try to get a piece of being a uh being a business leader, as you say, to To try to get their themselves on the cover of Four. business and any of your listeners who are actually in business or entrepreneurs

28:53 It's not sexy. Most of the time you're doing work behind the scenes, looking a lot of PL sheets, you know, doing math. Like these are not sexy things. And I think for a lot of artists and celebrities, they want to be the face of it. And I think that's what they do very well. probably more so on the marketing side and promotional side, but they probably when it comes down to sort of brass tacks and talking about supply chain and seasonality and sourcing, they either don't have the knowledge, they don't want to learn the knowledge, and they're just not comfortable talking about it. Because I think now more than ever Everyone wants to be seen as an entrepreneur, you know, four hour work week. It's all about, you know, being a boss. I know girl boss is kind of antiquated now, but just being a boss, you know, I'm not a worker, I do what I want. And that's all great, but it comes with actually a lot of work. And there's people who have the knowledge, people who do the thankless job, and it's easy to be on the cover of the magazine.

29:54 But what about all those people that had to work to get you there? And I think with a lot of like celebrity businesses, you see their runway isn't very long. So it's almost like you start a company, give it that billion dollar valuation, fingers crossed, sell it, and we never speak of it again. For businesses and brands that want to leverage the power of music, the uh the emotion, the celebrity, uh Do you have any advice about how to approach it? I mean, are there are there brand artists collaborations that work better than others? How should they be thinking about it? I would save. First have somebody in house who actually understands culture.

30:32 And if that's not possible, actually hire genre experts, cultural experts, and Actually rely on those authorities to help guide you because oftentimes the idea is okay, we have a budget, we'll just throw it at the biggest name we can. We're gonna look at their social media followers, and that's what's going to predicate whether we hire them. That has absolutely no thought or nuance or analysis. And that's why a lot of these collaborations just sort of fall flat. Like you could tell a big check was cut. The CEO got their selfie with the artist, and that's about it. So I would say really rely on experts and also think long term. If you wanna be seen as a brand who actually is making inroads in culture, that has to be a longer term relationship. Let's look back at brands like Sprite.

31:22 Sprite made a long term commitment in hip hop. It wasn't just We're gonna hire like Nas and A Z to do a one off freestyle. No, no, we're gonna literally be a part of hiring artists, letting them do their thing over the course of several different campaigns, versus let's say Gap and LL Cool J, where he literally shouted out FUBU in a gap ad, but Gap didn't even know what FUBU was and they let that run. So they basically gave their competition a national platform at their expense. But that shows you where somebody wasn't thinking through it and not having these actual experts and not just hiring them, but listening to them. Well, Sonya, this has been great. Thank you so much for doing it. Thank you for having me.

32:08 The music business has sometimes been derided as not really being a business, but as Samya explains the landscape, it's pretty clear that there are sophisticated strategies at play. Musicians may prefer to describe themselves as artists, but no one's gonna break through like Taylor Swift without being calculated about their brand and product. Music is inspiring on so many levels. But one of the things I find so fascinating about it, the mix of creativity and discipline that's necessary for success. The truth is, creativity is required in every industry. As dispassionate and analytic as C-suite executives like to appear, The real value added usually comes from the heart.

32:53 I'm Bob Safian. Thanks. Rapid response is a wait what original. I'm Bob Safian. Our executive producer is Eve Tro. Our producer is Alex Morris. Associate producer is Mashimaku Tonina. Mixing and Mastering by Aaron Bastanelli. Our theme music is by Ryan Holiday.

33:22 Our head of podcasts is Le Tal Malad. For more, visit rapidresponsshow.com.