Kara Swisher takes on big tech, from Apple to Nvidia

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1:20 Join us at masters of scale dot com slash apply twenty six. That's mastersofscom slash apply. Twenty six. Friction is critical and one of the things that Silicon Valley people all the time do is they're like Let's be frictionless. Let's be seamless. That's their favorite word. But actually no.

1:44 Friction is how you move forward, right? That's always the case, including in technology and innovation. AI is so frictionless. You live longer if you do things that are hard for you. than you do if you do things that are easy. And I my fear, especially with young people, is you never have to try and therefore you atrophy, right? In so many ways. Make it hard.

2:07 To me that's where great things happen. That's Kara Swisher? Жорналист, автор, хост за подкастр, а вилажко Пивет алонса Галаю. I wanted to check in with Kara about the biggest stories in tech and beyond as 2025 winds down. She pointedly separates the lessons from the noise at NVIDIA, OpenAI, Apple, Google, Netflix, and more. It is a rich, full conversation.

2:42 Kara starts out pretty matter of fact and then quickly turns sparky, whether we're talking about Elon Musk or Mark Zuckerberg. So let's get to it. I'm Bob Safian, and this is Rapid Response. I'm Bob Staffi and I'm here with uh Kara Swisher, journalist, author, and podcast host. Kara, great, as always, to get a chance to chat. Thank you, Bob. We've both been engaged in uh tech and the business world for quite a while. We've seen a lot of cycles and scandals and booms and busts.

3:16 And even so, twenty twenty five has felt to me like Like a a a nonstop roller coaster. Yeah, a little bit. Has it felt that way to you? No, no, I just think it's uh I mean, there's just always been tech has just become more involved in politics, I guess probably is why. Um and and it hadn't been before. There was it's just a new element that's been entered into it since uh Trump was inaugurated. And so You have nonstop seeing of these Cze moguls in a way that's really

3:44 Pretty unattractive in a lot of ways, grasping and grabbing for power. Obviously AI, which has been around for a while, um, has has taken a quantum leap, so people are focused on that. Crypto has gotten a lot more attention since they uh got more power, uh you know, as they got more power and as the Trump family entered into that. area. Um so there's there's sort of new technologies, although they're not that new, um, sort of becoming more important. And probably the massive spending on AI is probably the biggest story of this year. Although I would argue there are other things that are happening that are more important. Investment markets often don't like um uncertainty and there's a lot of talk about different kinds of uncertainty this year, and yet stocks have just

4:27 you know, marched upward. Yeah. You know, powered by a a handful of these big Tech names. Well, they're spending a lot of money. It feels like around tripping. They're if they're spending money and then the economy's doing better because they're spending money, but they don't have a business, it's just this cycle that is maybe not sustainable. You are uh worried about a uh a bubble, an AI bubble. No, it's not a bubble necessarily'cause people are buying it. You know, I mean I think there's a lot of promise there. It's just are we spending ahead of it and then what are the implications if they don't find enough consumer results eventually. that'll be a problem. I mean, but Amazon went on forever, right? Yeah. For you know, until it finally got a good business. The same thing with Google or others. And so I mean there'll be one or two big winners here and we just don't know who they are. And You know, it's something like NVIDIA, yes, I think that's a bubble because I think it they remind me of Cisco back in the day. Um they are raking in money. Thank you. So with Cisco. So with Cisco.

5:24 And then it wasn't. Um, you know, I think uh ultimately everyone's gonna make their own chips, you know, Apple's entering the picture, Google, everybody's gonna make their own chips and um and that's gonna settle off. It's just this one company. It's very similar to Cisco. A lot of that to me is a That company's unsustainable at the at the numbers they have. But you know, it it's as if there's only gonna be one chipmaker, as if The end users of NVIDIA's Chips. They're not making money, right? I mean, No, exactly. I mean some of them are. Some of them are. I mean, no one's making money. No, not not in the AI space. They're spending money. And so some of them are making really interesting uh uh money. It's just not decent compared to Yeah. And so the question is if you're not s you know, it's sort of like how valuable is

6:08 Real estate in California. during the gold rush. And it was, it just became right. And so people have to get there and spend the money and waste the money in order to create California, right? So I you know, I it's some people are going to be left on the sidelines and others aren't. That's I mean it that's the the natural order of things in the internet space. Usually there's two or three big winners. As I'm listening to you, like you you have this tone that like, yeah, this is what happens in technology all the time. But like technology is is a more Feels like a more central part of the economy. It is a central part. It's always been. By the way, it's always been a central part. since the first IBM's the big IBM mainframes. But I mean I think the um I think what it is is that there are bigger

6:51 part of the stock market, but it was before. It was it just wasn't into this extent. Um last bubble it certainly was And it's just entered politics. I think that's what the issue is. And Trump has done such a bear hug of these companies that you notice it. And they, of course, you know, you you can't help but ignore Elon being part of the government and trying to cut it very badly, as it turned out. You know, just even last week with the head of Palantir, when's the last time we saw a defense par person look like he was on drugs screaming at the New York Times on stage? I didn't say he was on drugs, it just looked like he's on drugs to a lot of people. Um, or very joyous person, I guess. Um But you know, when's the last time you saw the see of Locky doing something like that? So these people just can't shut up is the problem. And so they have to appear on stage, they have to tweet, they've got to be, you know, if I see one more picture of Jensen Wong in a leather jacket, I'm gonna exhaust my like shut the f up. Like I'm my whole prediction for the series they need to shut the f all of them. They're like and they're not that interesting.

7:51 Except for the rich, right? That kind of stuff. And or you see Sam Altman everywhere. You see um Even poor Tim Cook has gotta wander into the White House and hand him a gold statue or be at the inauguration. It's very performative. And so that's why they just don't seem to go away because of their proximity to Trump, who is uh you know, a really coin operated president. I don't blame him. Of all of them, I don't blame him. In this case, why wouldn't he take advantage? They're just like throwing money at him uh to get it. Yeah, I mean he went he went from being sort of seeming like he was anti uh or somewhat anti tech to to now being just hand in glove. Why wouldn't he? I mean it I mean he is a politician. You said just before that there are things that you think are more important or more interesting than AI that people aren't really talking about. What what are they?

8:39 The uses of AI and the uses of quantum uh uh computing around healthcare is really interesting. Like a lot of the stuff that's happening with gene editing, CRISPR. And even GLP ones, um, I think are critically important to save cost savings and health and longevity. You know, right now AI is focused on the stupidest of things. When there's all this really astonishing possibilities. I'm also really interested in all the all the uh el electric vehicles and autonomous vehicles stuff. Take me down the road with electric vehicles. Like what

9:13 what is happening in China that people aren't paying attention to and like Well, as d as Donald Trump says, these tiny cars are so cool. They're so cute. Um, there's all you know, like B uh BYD and the stuff, the innovations are they're you know, go anywhere else in the world. You see them everywhere, right? I mean this is what Tesla should have been, except except for someone with a really problematic mommy, daddy problem a and a and a other problems, the shift of how cars are made and manufactured, and China is leading that. That

9:46 Revolution. they're gonna really go jump ahead of us in terms of autonomy and um the uses of it. I mean there's some really great stuff going on here with Waymo and things like that, which I love, I have to say I've been a big fan of that. technology for a long time, but it's so scattered that I I just think in China or anywhere else you go across the world and you see these very quickly made, very easy easily made cars that are much more efficient, you could see how they could change the way people move around the globe. And so Um You can still have your big cars, but I mean I think in cities, uh, you know, how to innovate in cities is really an interesting opportunity for Whether you're talking about uh the way you talk about electric cars or talking about CRISPR like you you

10:29 You're drawn to the things that are m more disruptive about the way our world can be, right? Yes, exactly. I mean I've spent a lot of time with Jennifer Dowd, and not just her, but all these people that are working on gene editing and, you know, the solving of cancer. I mean, think about like the money we would save with people that or or yeah same thing with GLP Ones, the diabetic industrial complex Is a tr multi-trillion dollar complex that we could just You know, we talk about balancing the budget. Like healthcare is the like just it's either military or healthcare. That that's really it. If you could make people healthier and and live better and less sick, like it's an astonishing savings. You're not as skeptical about some of the applications of whatever GLP ones then you know, or or

11:14 Or crisper than it's not. No, I've well yes, of course. It's gotta be regulated correctly, but I mean it has it's a real opportunity for people not to die of things they don't need to die of. This is the first year longevity's gone down. Well, why? It's largely c due to Elon, as far as I'm concerned, in terms of how we're Killing people across the globe, uh, with our our pulling back. But because of the pullback on U.S. A ID. But I think that there's all these opportunities to increase uh the health span of people and not sp everybody. Like we're we live in a world of sick care, right? And so if not healthcare, it's sick care. Another area I'm really interested in is building, like how we build things and uh materials. I think we don't spend enough time thinking about how much we if you think about it, the way we build housing is artisanal. Like You know, drywall? What? Like there's so many really interesting ways you could apply AI in particular or machine learning to how you build homes. And you know, one of the biggest problems uh that we have is we don't have enough homes for people. And it it that leads to

12:15 all manner of, you know, mental illness and insecurity, people feeling unsafe and uh societal unrest and everything else. And if I was an ex presidential candidate, which I'm not gonna be, I'd say twenty five dollar minimum wage, everybody gets GLPs and eight million houses. Like Everyone just has this collective sigh of f relief. They're not like like on this ridiculous Yeah, just and then everybody the more people are in the economy, the better. How worried are you about about A I fueled. Layoffs.

12:47 We actually have a population decline going on, which is interesting. Like it's it's actually a much more complex issue. Um, I I don't I think like look, like I was just the watch reading a lot about the the I thought um Netflix was gonna get uh Warner. Now this is a relatively small business now. Entertainment is not as big as it used to be, right? It's not So you thought from the beginning Netflix was gonna have to be a little bit more. Everyone was like, What? I'm like, of course he did. Why would he be with a loser? There's a story about how everyone in Hollywood hates Netflix. That may be. Like absolutely, they're very powerful. But Like as if they blame Netflix for the for the state they're in. I find that fascinating. Um because like they're in the state they're in because they didn't modernize, because they didn't lean into tech, because they didn't they had these ridiculous um you know, ways they did their business. The economy of Hollywood is so insane, like in terms of costs and everything else. They didn't listen to consumers. And then they're blaming Netflix for having a product consumers like. Like I I'm sorry. I just I I've been they're mad that he changed the they changed the economics. Too bad. Guess what?

14:01 But and if AI does that again to them or to any other industry, it's sort of Too f bad? No, I think it's it's uh it no, it's incumbent on our country, uh our citizens and our government to figure out what the shift is then. What do people then do? Because there are lots of AI's not gonna replace everything. It's gonna replace rote work first, right? Which a lot of information work is. So we were having people just like Do things that aren't Creative. I mean, I think there's a lot of creative jobs available. I think that you can be very creative in terms of of applying AI with New ways to work or

14:37 Let's have UBI. Like let's be creative of how we want to figure out how humans interact with this stuff rather than either be on the doom scale or the it's gonna solve everything scale because it's not. Like Think about mechanized uh farming. Like everybody was a farmer. Farmers are entrepreneurs, if you really think about it. Yeah. We're

14:58 Um and And mechanized. It just came in. Do you wanna go back to The plow? I doubt it. Like it's just not gonna happen. Mechanized farming, then we had manufacturing, and then now manufacturing has gotten mechanized. Um, I'm more interested, by the way, in robotics than I am. And I think the robotics with AI is sort of a really interesting. Not what Elon's doing, the optimist. Nobody wants one of those people wandering around and robots don't have to look like people. I don't know why there's that obsession with it. Robots can look like uh Amazon bought a company, Kiva, many years ago that I was really paying attention to. It moved around boxes, but did it in this

15:35 using AI and it knew where things should go. And that to me was like, okay, that's gonna replace people. I went to this Amazon warehouse ten years ago and I was as I was watching it and I thought, Oh goodness sake, and they were there to show me how much they like people. I'm like there's not gonna be any people here. Like why? Why should people put things in boxes? Like I don't get it. Like when a robot could do it. And they're like, We love people I'm like, Yeah, except when it's cheaper to have the robots do it. It just wasn't cheaper at the time. Now it is, of course. So I'm just like like what is what can we do creatively, uh including our public officials and all of us to figure out where jobs are. But Let me just tell you, if companies find a way to save costs, they're gonna say like I'm sorry, like everyone's like, Can you believe they're doing layoffs? I'm like, Absolutely, I can believe it. I wouldn't do it.

16:22 But They're going to. I mean Like a law firm doesn't need this many people to do stuff that AI can AI or whatever version of this Does why would you They just wouldn't. They didn't the last ten twenty six turns that we had in our economy. I don't know why you think they're gonna do it here.

16:39 You mentioned Elon Musk a couple of times. I mean he was in the hot center of the action early in the year. He got himself crossways with the White House. Now he's got a A trillion dollar Pay package? Well, maybe. If he makes it. I don't think he's gonna make it, but okay. Sure, why not? Like who cares? Like if he makes that if he makes it that valuable, he should get it. Like I that's how I feel. Like but he's not gonna but it has all kinds of hooks. They'll move the goalpost for him because that's the most ridiculous feckless board in history. But he has to do a certain amount of things in order to get it. He's got to get the valuation up. And if he manages somehow to get the valuation up, I guess he does deserve it, right? If he gets it to eight trillion dollars. I mean I start to think it's just

17:23 I get it, but if he gets he moves something from Whatever, one trillion to eight trillion. I guess he deserves it. If he's the one that does it, sure, why not? I f I feel like that That's in some ways though our system has become sort of like there's too much going to these folks at the top. Like he's doing all the work. You think I don't agree with that? It's up to these companies that do it. It's up to these I don't really you know, if they want to do that and they want that's how they want to run their business, I don't feel like Uh what are we gonna tell no? It's their business and they wanna they're by the way, they're running it into the grant. It's about to get shorted big time, I think, again. Everyone's tried to short I I think the meme stock of Tesla is nearly run its course. And you're gonna see it being valued at what it actually is worth which is

18:06 less and less every hour, essentially. And so eventually, you know, but these meme stocks, they are what they are. Like what are you what are you gonna do? You can't stop people from being stupid. You can't stop stupid, like I've always known it's my um I used the expression I liked is it you know, intelligence has its limitations, but stupidity is infinite. I'm curious how you uh how you rate Mark Zuckerberg's year. I mean he's he's cozy up to Trump. Oh, whatever. He was never nice. Let's just be clear. He was never I'm not even slightly surprised that he cozyed up to Trump. He doesn't like people, so that's the way that goes. Um Uh you know, he spent all this money on Neta. Like i I've never seen someone who made so many f mistakes. Like he's done a lot of listen, he's done an astonishing job with that company from a from a from a ad point of view. The products are quite good. Instagram threads is terrific. Like they're he makes some good products, right? But like here's someone who spent tw seventy five, what is it, billion?

19:02 on doing his m stupid metaverse, which both Scott Galloway and I were like, This is a waste of money, as it turns, but he gets to spend it And then declare victory, even though it's a defeat, and then move on, you know, which is sort of like He gets to make mistakes on an awesome scale. I wish I could. He goes to the new area where I'm just saying you know, if I made a mistake like that, I was I'm not gonna be lauded for spending seventy five billion dollars on a

19:34 Stupid thing that it's just I all it said to me is there was no one around him that said, Are you fucking kidding, bro? Like what are you doing? Like he doesn't. When you use this phrase founder worship, like is this what you're talking about? Yes, it's it's idolatry is the word we use, is idolatry of minute. Everything he does every Shitty makes his golden. No, no, no. Like some of them are. Some of them are really cool, but he's starting from a very You know, uh successful area. I don't think he's gonna be as successful in AI as people think.

20:04 I realize that e even by bringing this up with you, I'm falling into the trap of, you know, f founder worship just by asking these questions. I think these are remarkable people in many ways, but not that remarkable. I don't again, I don't want to listen to everything he has to say, but I seem to be forced to. Yeah, I also blame the media for that, too, is the um like the idolatry of innovators. They can do no wrong. I don't think that's very I mean, it's sort of like raising a bunch of sugar addicted children. Like they can know my child is so perfect, but they're not. Like I whatever. Kara has strong convictions about Musk and Zuckerberg, but her critique of idolatry, it doesn't come from nowhere. She's been holding sugar rush CEOs accountable through a lot of shifts. So what's her take on Google versus OpenAI? And why does she think both Tim Cook and Bob Iger should move on as CEOs?

20:57 We'll talk about that and more after the break. Stay with us. Hey listeners, Bob here. If you listen to Rapid Response on Masters of Scale, you may be missing half the show. Because every Friday we release a second rapid response exclusively in the rapid response feed. The guests and topics are just as compelling and timely from Ford CEO to NASA's administrator to the lessons from The Devil Wears Prada. It takes about 10 seconds to find, just search rapid response wherever you listen to podcasts and hit follow to make sure you never miss an episode.

21:41 I hope to see you there. Humans will never be more intelligent than AI. There's gonna be two types of companies. Those were great at AI and those that went out of business because they weren't. How do we build a future? That is human centered. I'm Rana El Calyubi.

22:00 And on my podcast, Pioneers of AI, we answer that question and so many more. As an AI scientist, entrepreneur, and investor, I know what it takes to build AI that works for everyone. Every week I sit down with the pioneers shaping our future. and we take you behind the scenes of the AI that's transforming our lives. Find pioneers of AI wherever you tune in.

22:28 Before the break, journalist and podcast host Kara Swisher gave her clear eye view on TechXX relationship with Trump, Elon Musk's trillion dollar pay package, and Mark Zuckerberg's quote, stupid metaverse. Now she talks about the battle between Google and OpenAI, why Tim Cook should move on as Apple CEO, and Hollywood's unfolding sagas from Disney to Netflix, plus Carrot's unexpected advice on the most important trends to watch in 2026. Let's jump back in. One of the twists in the AI wars has been a Google sort of bounce back, the surge by Gemini versus open AI's chat GPT. Um you know, Sam Altman calling this code red.

23:15 You you said before it's hard to know who a winner will be. Interestingly, on Pivot, we thought was gonna do this,'cause they had all the pieces, right? Like they if they didn't, what a bunch of idiots, right? That kind of I mean they were ahead. They just didn't Take the bet'cause they were afraid of it. Yeah, of course. Well Sundar is a much more um less risk he's more risk averse. I think s uh I think Sir De Brynn has rearrived there. I think you can feel his influence, right? He's the founder, one of the founders. So Um I think that they had all the elements in place to do it and just had to make the it's very hard to jump from one thing to the next and do it. The the one company that does do it is Netflix. It's like now we're this. We're not doing advertising, now we are. We're not doing we're mailing D V D now we're not. Like I love these guys. They like every time. They're like nah Today we're gonna we're not buying anything, which was a head say. We're gonna buy them studio. Like I love it. It's like great.

24:07 So you know, Google just took advantage of its obvious assets and it should've like the fact that it wasn't ahead was the Story. It should be. by every you know, they've got the technology, they've got the people, they've got the data, they've got the right businesses. They're the most set up for this era. Now look, Chat GBT's gotten really far. Open AI has gotten very far, but ultimately Is it

24:30 I what I kept asking myself is is it Netscape or is it Google? Is is open AI Netscape or Google? It's feeling a little netscape these days, right? Like even though they're way ahead. They're you know, the A lot of times in the in technology, the planes are covered with the bodies of pioneers, right? Like there's all kinds of that. You know that from being around. You know, there's so many companies that were There and then weren't, but were important.

24:55 Johnny Ive, the iconic Apple designer working with Altman and Open AI on some new device or interface or form factor or whatever. Okay. Big deal differentiator. I don't care. I think that I I think these devices are stupid. I think eventually the way I see it putting out, it's just gonna be around you. It doesn't they it make such a big deal about these devices you wear. I think probably what I would see more interesting is this is sort of an opportunity for Apple is Your AirPods, which you wear now comfortably, even though at the time if you remember when it rolled out, everyone said how ugly they were. I think if you put a camera in those and they could see as you go through the world, I mean people I mean the glasses format is the probably the way it's gonna go, but does it have to be glasses on your face? Um, because m not everybody wants to wear those, but if there was something in your ear that could see As you move through the world, who's the company who's most

25:46 able to do that. There's two of them, Google and Apple, right? Because people are very comfortable in the Apple environment. So they have to me, they have a lot of opportunity in this area. Apple is having a lot of trouble like Getting it AI needed together. Although does it not need to? I don't know. I don't know if they need it as I think they have to integrate it into its products, that's for sure, right? So that's that's they don't necessarily have to own the AI. They didn't have to own maps, did they? No, they they tried and they sort of half failed and then they used Google. Or they didn't have to make a lot of stuff. You know, they didn't have to make all those apps. Everybody else did, right? And they took advantage of it. To me, they're a system you they can ride up on things. Um I think the integration is what's difficult here. And so how do you integrate AI into the things that you already exist? To me, the airpo I keep obsessing on the AirPods. I'm like, what if they were just a little more functional? Like I know it sounds crazy, but I still have my pair of Google glasses, which I'm gonna keep so I can sell them someday to send one of my kids to college. It was directionally the correct idea just was didn't have enough functionality. Same thing with the the uh

26:52 The meta glasses? I mean, they're what do they do? They take a picture. That's pretty much it, right? How much functionality is that? Not much. Like and so w where can you get more functionality of the things you might do every day, which is information you need, um It sounds dumb, but directions, ordering food, getting places, appointment making, things like that. Like to me, that's where they should focus is on those on honestly, the software rather than the hardware. At Apple. Do you feel like Tim Cook is doing a good job. He did.

27:25 He should leave now. I mean I that's what I would do if I were him he look when when declare victory and move on. Well he has that victory. What an amazing run, right? So um Like when jobs died, everyone was like, Oh, it's over. It was three hundred billion dollar company, I think. I forget. It's trillions now. So what Tim Cook has done including around the watch, around the ear people don't give him as much'cause he doesn't have as much style as Jobs did, but I gotta say he presided over a lot of great products. Oh, if if jobs came back, he would be astounded by what his company has become, right? He would not recognize every now and then I look at something like oh he wouldn't let this happen. Like some of the some of the products, but um he had taste. That's a different thing. Um

28:06 Uh but I think uh you know, he he's had a great run and he should probably retire now would be if I were him, I'd be like, Great job, I just did. And and then put someone in place that understands sort of where it's the the next fresh ideas. Those guys have been together forever. All that they're all the same people when jobs done. Which is a good thing, but also a bad thing,'cause you want new, fresh Concepts. But they they have such a big um Amount of

28:32 stuff they've invented that they've got to keep going, right? That's the thing. They've got the whole ecosystem that has to continue and then they have to innovate on top of it. What about uh Disney? I mean Bob Iger is another one who sort of declared victory and then had to come back and now You know, his contract is ending. I think personally They need to merge with someone or sell. That's what you know, ultimately. I think he's done an amazing job with that brand. For sure. Again, another person, but probably shouldn't have come back. You know, he I think he was bored. I think, you know, he retired a little too early because he's so vibrant and intelligent and you know, he looks great. Like everything else, he's sort of was like

29:08 At one point he was sending me a lot of uh text from some boat in the in the And in French Polynesian he was sailing or something and I'm like, Oh, you're coming back and I joke with him on stage about it. I'm like, You're bored, like you have you have more to give, essentially. I think he probably should find the right um person to take over they've got plenty of people. It's just It's still too s

29:29 I've always m maintained it's it's the biggest of the small things, like it's too small. in today's environment. And so they really have to hook up with the tech. I would think Apple would be a very good merger with them or Comcast or They're just gonna have to, given the size problems. They're I think they're number Two in streaming, but it once they once if this one passes. Um

29:51 That'll be a a problem for them. I'm just getting a note here that uh Paramount is potentially back in the in the action with uh with the cash bit. Cash hostile cash bit. What a bunch of losers, honestly. You don't see it happening, huh? Maybe. Maybe. I don't know. I just think I don't I their only argument was we're friends with Donald Trump. That seems non economic to me. I mean I'm sorry, but Big daddy and Nepo baby really have to like have a better argument than we're friends with Donald. I mean, how like how ridiculous a way to conduct business is that? And so

30:23 I just like look, they de by by the way, from a An existential point of view. They're f If they don't get this, right? merge with someone else. I don't care how rich they are. You still, you know, there's only so much money you're throwing at the yacht. But you know, one of the things that drove me crazy is they had a um thing right when they did the deal and they're like we're gonna take technology and make it better. And I was like, specifically what?

30:48 And they're like, Technology and make it better and I was like, Um, yeah, I'd like a specific And they were like, Technology. Like I don't honestly, Larry, who's four hundred and twelve years old, like What? What are you gonna do? How are you gonna save money? Spell it out for the rest of us except and and it ultimately comes back to they're rich. That's they can spend it. They can buy

31:09 I don't know, all of France and give everyone a glass of wine. That's not really economics, right? Like it's it's they just want to own it. It's just a toy. Then it's just a toy and then okay. All right. That's what How much are you willing to pay for your toy is. Right, exactly. But they need it. Let me just tell you from business point of view, they need these things need to merge. Like I know everybody's all upset in Hollywood, getting back to that, but there is no other direction, largely because of Hollywood didn't innovate for so long. Their business model. I'm curious how how you feel like A I and the technology is gonna impact Journalism?

31:44 You know, like I mean I I did an on stage interview with uh with the Time CEO Meredith Levy. I love her. We we talked a bit about sort of risk of Uh. Deteriorating journalism maybe in the A to AI like d Do you use AI in your own work? Do you find yourself caught in the moment? No, I use it just for like I've got this rash, what is it?

32:06 It's just better than Google. Like I know it's here's a picture. And it actually is good. It does it works. I have to tell you, Google uses it. But it does mean we're being old fashioned because we're not using it. No, no, no. If I found a use for it, you know, I jumped right in, Bob, when I when the internet started. I don't I would I just I never find a use for it. Like that's the problem for me. You know what it's good at? Headlines, I have to say. I'm like, what would be the headline? What would be a good headline? And it comes up with stuff. I wouldn't have thought of some of them. Like I was looking for I was trying to do a a logo. It did that really well. To me it's a better Google. That's for me. For for some of journalism The problem

32:42 The thing is there's so much great data out there that doesn't get surfaced all the time and give you more to a story. I like that part. Like like I noticed the two big Hollywood movies that were very popular this year were all originals. Or like Pleurubus. You can't make that. AI actually I've I've decided Pluribus is about even though he didn't say it, I've decided myself it's about AI. It's about what happens if one difficult person has to deal with a world of AI. It's always pleasing you. It's always trying to get you what you want. It's it's almost self defeating in and of itself. It's lonely, right? Uh to me, that's what that whole show's about is a world where AI

33:21 Corporal. Right. Becomes in is people are it's a high mind and they have all the answers, but nothing interesting. The impact of AI and mental health. You referred to this earlier. I know you've you've done an episode about it. I mean it's it's bizarre. You start becoming in a relationship with these things, you will go, you will have Alzheimer's, no problem, because friction is critical to humanity. Like everyone always compares the brain to a computer. It's not a computer. A brain is so not a computer. It's so random. It's it's this the neurons firing all the Like a computer wishes it were as cool as the human brain, right? Like really does. But it's good at the things that

34:02 The human brain isn't, which is pattern matching. Like that. Let's use it for that and'cause we can't do those calculations as fast. But they s it still isn't It's m

34:13 marginally cre it's like literally you're least interesting friend. Like, okay. But I like I like your you're saying it's about friction. It's like we need to have Well, and not have And not have a a a relationship with the friction. There's a difference. Stupid conflict is stupid. It's bad for your cortisol. It kills you early. Stuff like that. Stress is bad for you. It just is. I'm working on this long series about longevity, but friction is critical. And one of the things that Silicon Valley people all the Time do is they're like

34:43 Let's be frictionless. Let's be seamless. That's their favorite words. But actually, no. Friction is what create friction creates babies, by the way, FYI. But um, but like friction is how you move forward, right? That's always the case, including in technology and innovation, like the friction creates the idea that creates the this. And so I think giving up that f AI is so frictionless. It's like, Ugh God. Like you know what I mean? Like it's so boring. It's so pleasing. The need for friction. Like you live longer if you do things that are hard for you. than you do if you do things that are easy. And I my fear, especially with young people, is um get into these synthetic relationships and

35:25 You never have to try and therefore you atrophy, right? In so many ways. Make it hard. Make and that's where great thing to me, that's where great things happen. Before I let you go, as As we As Our listeners to this show look ahead to twenty twenty six.

35:40 What do you think they share they're they're missing, they're misunderstanding things they should be. I would pay a lot more attention to health care and where the stuff healthcare is going. I would pay a lot more attention to robotics. The second thing is energy, not just that AI uses so much. By the way, it's so funny that all the tech bros are interested in longevity and then they're like using up all this energy and murdering people across the globe with using like methane or whatever the heck. Whatever okay. Just it's just an interesting disconnect. Um, but I do think one of the things that's really interesting is energy of how like where the innovation and energy is happening. I I'm fascinated with small nuclear devices. I'm fascinated with nuclear energy. It's just like That is right for innovation. I know everyone goes crazy. I mean, when when Microsoft said it was gonna revive Three Mile Island, I was like, Are you fing kidding me? But then I'm like, actually, when you start to do the research, nuclear is relatively safe compared to fossil fuels. It's just that The Russians mishandled Chernobyl.

36:36 That's what w the problem was. They mishandled it. And so there's all kinds of safety things we can put into place. And I think eventually we'll all have these small nuclear devices in our house that will power everything. And then we can, you know, make more trouble for other we'll make more trouble because we're friction people. We'll make other problems for ourselves. Find the friction. We'll find the friction. But I think that's really interesting. And then it really does it it it again helps the planet. Like once we solve the energy situation, that means we don't have to go to Mars, which we may have to do, right? We may have to live on other planets because we're what doing to this planet. Um and that to me we solve the energy issue and the and the health issue. You go a long way toward making it a better planet. That's my feeling. Carrie, you always get my mind moving.

37:18 Thanks. Bob, thank you. It's good to see you. Kara is such a compelling thinker. The conclusions she reaches are so sharp and pointed, but she also doesn't shy away from nuance and ambiguity. I love her point that frictionless experiences shouldn't be the goal, that obstacles are what keep our brain engaged and healthy and durable. In an emerging AI age, it's a powerful reminder that saving a bit of time on a particular task isn't always worth it.

37:51 In the long run, maybe efficiency and creativity need to be at odds for organizations and for each of us as individuals. As we head into the holidays, let's enjoy as frictionless a break as possible and be mindful that the obstacles of the season are also worth celebrating. They're keeping our brains in shape for the inevitable personal and professional challenges awaiting ahead in the new year. I'm Bob Safian. Thanks for listening. Rapid response is a wait what original.

38:30 I'm Bob Safian. Our executive producer is Eve Tro. Our producer is Alex Morris. Associate producer is Mashimaku Tonina. Mixing and Mastering by Aaron Bastanelli. And Brian Pugh. Our theme music is by Ryan Holiday. Our head of podcasts is Lital Malad.

38:51 For more, visit rapidresponsshow.com.

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