Possible: Stephen Colbert isn’t so sure about AI (with Reid Hoffman)

0:00 I'm really struck by what are we most want to be, and that's not alone. And then loneliness is a disease, and it's a modern disease. I hope the sho has been. That the show has been sort of a third space for people.

0:15 is that sometimes they can come at the end of the day. And say oh А Стивен із гнаше the whole show's reaction to the same day I experienced. It's really important that I don't break news to the audience. What I'm really h having with them is an emotional experience. I mean it takes intellectual sweat to do it.

0:32 But I'm sharing the emotional reaction to everything. during the day. And that gives a sense that we're really communicating with each other. Hi, I'm Reed Hoffman. And I'm Aria Finger.

0:52 We want to know how together. We can use technology like AI. To help us shape the best possible future. We ask technologists, ambitious builders, and deep thinkers to help us sketch out the brightest version of the future. And we learn

1:07 What it'll take to get there. This is possible. In Jera Tolkien's legendarium. The elves were the first to awaken under the stars.

1:21 Masters of language, song, and memory. They believe that storytelling Was a form of stewardship. That to tell the world's tales. was to help preserve its soul.

1:34 In our world, we don't have elves, but we do have comedians, satirists, and storytellers. And some of them like our guests today, wield their craft like a mirror. Reflecting the contradictions, the absurdities. And sometimes the quiet beauty.

1:51 Of being human. Stephen Colbert is one of the most influential comedic voices of our time. Best known for hosting The Colbert report.

2:00 And The Late Show with Stephen Colbert. He combines razor sharp satire with a sincere curiosity. About the world. He spent decades.

2:10 Exploring what it means. To live truthfully. In an age of performance. In this episode, we talk with Steven about how our storytelling might evolve in an era of AI. What speculative fiction teach us about hope and fear.

2:26 And why creativity? Is more than just a spark. It's a discipline, a responsibility. And sometimes A kind of prayer.

2:35 Here's our conversation. With Stephen Colbert. Alright, well, Steven, we've been Uh looking forward to this for months. Uh welcome to Possible.

2:51 It is a pleasure. It is a pleasure. I thought the funnest way to start was that you and I are both Uh deep. Dungeon Dragons fans. And we both started playing at a young age.

3:02 So If you were to assign a character class to humanity In the twenty first century. You know, Bard. Rogue.

3:10 Wizard, barbarian. What are we right now? Wait, humanity? So the the entirety of humanity has to be a single character class? Or it could be a blend. Well,

3:23 Uh oh. I mean because there are Okay, so Fighter.

3:31 Then you have Ranger or Paladin. Okay. I I I I mean, there are some paladins out there. There are people who are

3:39 Picking up what they believe to be the sword of justice and enforcing the law. And the goodness. As they see it. I mean paladins are very narrow minded. Well, they're law. Paladins have a tunnel vision. Lawful good is a is a tunnel vision. And lawful good can cause a lot of chaos and evil. by being completely unbending.

4:00 So that's I've always been very suspicious of lawful good. characters. I mean I think of like what is the alignment of humanity? That's an that's an interesting thing. So that'd be there's fighters, okay? Then there's thief. There's thief, which also has the subcategory of assassin. At least back in my day. I'm talking original A D D Yep.

4:18 Um A D. Um I'm I mean some of us are thieves. I think there are very few assassins. I think some of us are clearly thieves. Yes. Oh and some people sincerely believe in crypto.

4:31 Yes. And that is an excellent opening for a a Techno Optimist podcast. And then just a quick follow up before I I I hand it over to Arya. And then if you were to assign yourself a character class for your role in terms of what you do, what what would your character class be? Oh. I m I guess

4:52 I mean, I don't think I have the skills for it, but I guess Bard You know what I mean? Because Bard has to be Bard you have to be like a thief and a monk or something? A cleric monk and then you also have to be like a thief. And then you also have to have like a high

5:08 You know, uh uh intelligence and then and then then you can spell bind people or something like that. I'm just thinking of like what's the what's the job of like a clown? Um What's the job of a clown on camera? I guess that's Bard. Yeah. Although it's it's also the the most elegant forms of clown, which is, you know, speaking some

5:29 Through humor speaking some truth. All right. I wanna let you I'm gonna let I'm like I'm I'm gonna stop on that one right there. Alright, I'm not even gonna try to compete on the sci fi level that is here or the D level, but to to To give some street cred, I did

5:47 I read all three Lord of the Rings. I saw all three movies. Last year I read The Hobbit to my kids. So I have some Tolkien. And so before we get into philosophy and the future of entertainment. If you had to be on a desert island, Steven, just with one Tolkien character to keep you company. Who would it be and why? On a desert island?

6:10 So not In Middle Earth. Okay. Um Call.

6:17 I think probably Gandalf. Because he would call the Eagles and we would get off the desert island. He would say something like that. Yeah. Or he's a good swimmer. Maybe he could get us fish. Because he's good at catching fish. But he catches Golem might eat you. I I might go through it, I guess. That's true, but I'm gamey. Gold would be too annoying. I think Gandalf's a great answer.

6:40 Yeah. So not surprising with that kind of start. you know, our episodes about creativity, empathy, agency of human beings. So Let's start there. What do you think is essential about kind of

6:53 who we are as human beings and how creativity and empathy kind of relate into them and how does that inform You know, what you do. When I was offered this gig. Ten years, ten plus years ago.

7:08 I had to think about it. Like I I wasn't sure if I wanted it. And then I had to do the I did kinda do the math on it. I had to kind of Dutch uncle myself about this and go, Okay, what is it? What would be good, what would be good about it? And on high on the list was live audience.

7:24 Because there are a lot of other things, a lot of opportunities to do other things. I had a whole television show all set. Pilot ready to go. That I wanted to do. But when I got this, I went, Oh wow, gosh. I do love being in front of a live audience.

7:38 Because you know, you know what's working and you can't You can't m make somebody find something funny anymore, you can make them Love you. They just it just happens or it doesn't happen. And

7:51 The sense as you're working on a joke or where you're thinking about telling a joke, or even the moment, if it just occurs to you in that moment where you're about to tell it, there's there's you've already got your all your empathetic like mirror neurons firing in you to go Oh, how would I receive this joke? What would this What what

8:08 Well, how might this play out in the mind of another person? It's kinda like It's I it's kinda like fishing. Creativity An imagination is is

8:19 an integral part of fishing because you throw that line down into the water and you know what the hook is and you know what the bait is And hopefully you get some sense of the movement of the water is. And in your mind you have to imagine what's happening. What is that hook? What is that hook doing down there? And then if you get a a strike, you have to think, was that an was that a little nibble from a big fish? Or was that a big nibble from a little fish?

8:43 And is that fish on? And should I set the hook? And Through that little line, just that little, you know. There's this

8:51 I have a friend I don't know if this is his term, but he and I have this thing we always say to each other, which is The tug is the drug. That's what fishing's about. That tug. The tug is the drug. And it's intermittent reinforcement.

9:03 Much like joke telling. You get addicted to that feeling of will this time I read the Water, the fish, the location, what the bottom is like. Um what kinda hook I should use. How I should weight it, how should I troll, should I

9:18 Bob, am I working on the surface here? What am I doing in this area with these fish? Okay, so that takes a lot of Imagination, which is associated with empathy. I have to imagine I have and and empathy is even beyond imagination because like imagination, which is imagination. Like really that that term. You're actually picturing this thing and then And that's that's a I think imagination's a big part of leadership, too. You have to s express to the other people.

9:42 Literally what your vision is. And that's not a metaphor. W how do you actually see this happening? And then you have to take the time to accurately describe to the people who you who are eager to do the thing necessary to achieve it. But if you're not clear to them, you can't be mad. If they don't achieve it. Because you didn't say what the goal was.

9:59 You didn't say how you imagine this thing happening. And if you've got the answers. I mean sometimes you you don't. But creating something For me

10:11 Is always about what is the effect That this is gonna have on the audience. And A lot of that is imagining how this is going to play out in the mind of another person. And that and and empathy goes beyond imagination because there's also what is the feeling that this elicits. And then what is the physical response that this a lot that goes into empathy.

10:29 Empathy and imagination are completely Completely. Inseparable. And I think that's what empathy has to do with creativity, is that you have to have imagination on what is the effect of this on an audience. And that's why I like a live live audience. And it's one of the big reasons I took this Show

10:44 is because four hundred and fifty people in an actual theatrical experience where not only do I like get to perform to them and hear their laughter, but in a theatrical atmosphere I also get this very specific bounce back of energy from the audience because the Building is Built to give me that. It's curved. I'm at the I'm at the

11:03 I'm at the focal point. Of this ellipse. When I perform. And I get that feeling back from them. And and hopefully

11:12 If it's really working, they also Feel how that felt for me. And then we Amplify each other's feelings. That's when it's really working.

11:23 I love that answer so much because it didn't occur to me because most people experience you through a screen, whether they're watching the show on TV or they're seeing your social media clips. And so just to hear that the the the live portion is the reason you did it. You know. It's funny you should say that like that it's like it's it's news to you that the room is so important to me. As a performer. Because

11:47 I had to adjust the way I did my show when I came from Colbert reporter here. And one of the significant ways that I changed it was Because of the model of that show, that was in a television studio, not a theater. And it was based upon a news Punditry model.

12:04 Where there is no audience. On that show I performed for the Camera. And the And the live audience got to witness me doing the show for the camera. I didn't

12:14 Yeah. Here I'm doing a show for the room and the camera captures me doing that for a theater. That's a it's a totally different way. It might seem subtle. From the outside, but for me is terms of my intention performing every night, it's a very, very and it took me a while to make that adjustment.

12:30 to play to the room. Even though I started my career. Playing to the room. Um in doing Improv. I think it it speaks to the importance of of live and in person, which we will certainly get to.

12:42 Yeah, I'm very interested, especially how how it relates to AI, man. I've got theories about that. Well, so what do you so you bring humor, you we try to give people a sense that they have agency over their lives, but you bring creativity, empathy, like What do you think is the thing that's that's missing? What do you try to bring most to humanity right now because we're you know, we're missing. I just try to bring it to the show. Like I don't know about humanity. Uh my responsibility is I've got Forty one minutes, forty, forty one and a half minutes. I forgot how many minutes we have to deliver every night to the network. Only forty one minutes to deliver every night.

13:16 And Like the sense of obligation or the sense of responsibility is not something that actually sparks the creative Uh uh uh flame. But

13:27 Because it's actually just good. for the show and it's good for the jokes and it helps you do Build on a joke. is to be accurate. Like we have good fact checkers here.

13:38 We stole Anderson Cooper's fact checker. For our show. And uh great guy. His name is Brandon Marionacci. We got we got great researchers, but he's our he's our head researcher and he's a really lovely guy. And Um

13:51 We just think that if you get if you if you're making a joke of s the actual n news story the actual data point and then really have A jaundist eye for for garbage news sites, even if they give you the setup that you want. We don't we just don't use them on air because we know probably that's gonna get fact checked.

14:10 into the grave by this time tomorrow. And then we won't be able to build on The story that we're telling. Day to day. Um In terms of like what do I want from the show, like what's the thing that I'm always shooting for?

14:23 I'm really struck by what do we most want to be, and that's not alone. And You know, even people who are like I'm essentially an introvert when I'm not in front of an audience. Um And some of my dearest friends are deep introverts.

14:38 But I know they don't want to be alone. It's not the same thing. And then loneliness is a disease and it's a modern disease. And so I hope the show has been

14:49 It's a t's not my term. I don't know who came up with the term. It's probably an old term that's just is salient now, but That the show has been a sort of a third space for people. Is that something they can come at the end of the day? And say, Oh I'm gonna share

15:02 Uh I'm Steven is gonna share basically the whole show's reaction to the same day I experienced. And It's really important that I don't break news to the audience. 'cause I'm not here to inform them. I'm here to Curate. I'm curating

15:17 my experience. of the day, which is really their experience of the day. I also don't really I don't want to reframe the news. I have There are a lot of great comedians out there, a lot of guys who do late night very good. Who reframe

15:29 the argument or they reframe What the discussion was today. I do not do that. I want to approach it in the exact same frame that my audience uh experienced it because what I'm really ha having with them is an emotional experience. I mean, it takes intellectual sweat to do it.

15:45 But I'm sharing the emotional reaction to everything. during the day. And that gives a sense that we're really communicating with each other. And if you can do that right, it can get out over the camera. And so

15:58 To have some sense of community like that, I think that's that's it. That's mostly what I'm there for. Ultimately. We're hanging out. I'm just the friend who won't shut up.

16:07 Now you were earlier gestured at In the interactive environment That you've been thinking about AI. In that context. And I'm very curious what your thoughts are because that

16:19 That is an unusual bridge to AI. Um about the about w about like what it means to community. Yes. W and community and what it means that like the the the parasocial, the theatrical experience, the the interactivity so what What are some of the the ways that you've been Musing.

16:37 About AI in this context. A million years ago when I was in New York and I guess I'd come here to work for the Dana Carve show and we had been canceled. That summer I just threw Through hook or by crook, I ended up

16:51 Being involved. With News corpse digital side. 'Cause I had a friend who worked for News Corp. Work for Uncle Rupee.

16:59 Uh they were trying to create something Oh God. Mindspring. Remember they owned my remember Mindspring dot com? And I just had dinner with this guy one night and he said, We're trying to figure out a way to turn this into come like, I don't know, like some sort of like

17:15 performance space where people could get together and there could be like some sort of Like literally like little town you go to there'd be venues, and I started talking about how improvisation Would 'Cause I was an improviser and been in Second City for years and how those things would Interact nicely.

17:30 with interactive technology. Because we used to do this thing on stage at Second City. We did it a few times called Global Village. where we would get online and we would get suggestions from people all around the world about what they'd what their day had been like. And then we would perform we would be those people in the common scenes together on stage.

17:48 Like somebody from sub Saharan Africa like You know someone from South America, some from Asia, someone from Europe, whatever. And we would be those people on stage. And

17:57 And then we would c We would get other suggestions from them as we told them how the scene was going. It never really worked, but I really loved the idea of using improvisation to create common performance spaces online. Yeah, the technology wasn't there. At the time. This was like in nineteen ninety eight.

18:12 Or yeah, ninety eight. So that's Seven was it, twenty seven years ago. I was thinking about doing that. How to do that.

18:20 Now when I look at the ability of AI to Create. A sense of an experience for you. Online.

18:30 Like Um that you're looking at a real human So you're hearing actual laughter. That you're interacting with an AI human. But it all of that.

18:39 It's l it's it's um A logical Extension. of the capability of in a digital environment.

18:53 My question, I don't have an answer. The question is, is that ever not gonna have some sense of an uncanny valley in it? Are we Is it is because art Is By humans for humans about being human.

19:09 It's not about Ideas. 'Cause I ideas are constructs. And humans are not a construct. They experience ideas. And they have emotional responses to them. And I think our

19:25 is that Combination. Of And I Yeah.

19:32 That elicits An emotional response. I just don't know if that's ever gonna feel Um, not gonna feel alien to us if it's not presented to us by a human. I mean the interesting question there is

19:48 There is one question about like you know, sometimes people feel that they're they are more able to express themselves. For example, talking to a chat bot because they don't feel as potentially threatened by it as they would be another human being. Um there's some kind of like

20:03 You know, I literally had a Um Friend of mine. a couple of months ago say, no Um

20:10 Claude is my best friend. And I'm like, nope, that's you know, Claude is not your friend. Friend is a two directional relationship. It's it's uh You know, it's kind of a his way of doing it. But the notion where AI can be in a way that helps you Like

20:28 uh navigate your own space and also navigate even a parasocial space. Like for example, one of the things I think is You know, um You know. Kind of A very easy

20:41 extension is that when you're doing meetings or discussions or other kinds of things, having AI listen and suggest things or interpreted. I mean like one of the funny things that I didn't anticipate with the AI assistant pie that

20:57 you know, my co founded inflection does. Is people actually use it for facilitating even marital conversations? Like they'll have pie. sitting there saying, Oh You know, when when Reed said X, you know, maybe he was thinking about why, or maybe this is the question, you know, that kind of thing. And so

21:15 That kind of facilitation strikes me as very possible within AI and it complicates the the this kind of space of emotional connection. It's not disagreeing with what you just said. As much as

21:29 It's a multi threaded tapestry. And by the way, I just want to be clear. I didn't I I did say it, but I I say it as a question. Will it ever? Will it ever be able to get beyond

21:43 And I'm and I mean beyond Uncanny Valley. I really I really mean In the same way that modern food Nutritionism. As as uh as Michael Pollan calls it, modern food has ostensibly everything you need.

22:01 It manufacture processed food has everything you need. To be healthy. And yet there is a growing suspicion that there are micronutrients of which we are not aware that we are robbed of. Which is why even nutritionism like this this is vitamin fortified, whatever. Doesn't matter.

22:17 Because that is actually not the natural s that's that not's not that's not the natural state of your consumption that you evolved for. So There they might get to a level that there is an unidentifiable y I cannot tell the difference between you And the AIU, for instance, your AIU could be you, because I've seen your AIU and it looks very much like this. But there there's a micronutrient of another human being. And it might be The disappointment

22:41 of the inability of the other human. To help you. If you know what I mean. There there might be a nutrient in the failure of the human to help you. There might be

22:51 The f the the flawed nature of human interactions, the fact that emotion will become a part of it. Because that is inextricable from our experience of the world. That that might be the micronutrient that is actually excised because it's the part that makes you uncomfortable.

23:07 when you go to talk to someone'cause you fear judgment. Judgment might just be part of our experience. And I'm not saying that that's not a good thing for you to take as a first step. But

23:18 It's like saying that The be all and and all of sex is masturbation. Yes, it's very freeing. There's no judgment. You don't feel about how you look or how the other person might feel or anything like that. But There you are missing something Uh essential and intimate.

23:33 With that. A question from me would be, you talked about the parasocial relationship and again, sort of the the love of human interaction. And I'm with you so much about the loneliness, crisis, and sort of lack of community that people feel. When you think of where entertainment is going, it's actually heading towards these parasocial relationships. It's creators, it's unmediated by the the television shows. It's you know one on one. It's your Twitter feed is for you, so you get exactly what you want. Right. I mean, some of it's literally like one on one, like OnlyFans is on one on one. Absolutely. Like how does that

24:12 Is that good? Is that bad? Like when you think about the it's fine. I think that's fine. I mean, I think what entertainment starts off with You know, uh Your Parents making you g laugh. You know, and and that makes you that that makes you feel good and more comforted. And then you do it back to them and you make them laugh and

24:31 And and then you're you you end up find out, Oh, I like singing and I can sing and you sing for your friends and they want to hear you sing and then you sing at school. Like It all starts off in little ways. I I I love the modern forms of entertainment that are destroying my business. I I had to remove Instagram.

24:49 From my phone. Because of I got the reports of how much of my day I was on it. And I thought I got Shit to do. I can't be doing this. But I find I could spend one hour on Instagram and I could find

25:02 From random people who I'll never even see again, little I'll never even come across their feet again. I bet in an hour I would come across Fifteen things that I would save in my folder and go Wow, that's great.

25:18 And it's only ninety seconds. You know, they're like sonnets. Or there was uh Barry Yergrow. Do you know who Barry Yergrow is? He's Great author. He wrote a A A Man Jumps Out of a Plane. is sort of the first group of sh the collection of short stories that kind of made him famous in the eighties. And they're one page long. All the short stories are one pages long.

25:36 And I love them. Man jumps out of a plane. I highly recommend it. They feel like these are like Barry Urgrow. Like they're almost like They're great, like little blackout scenes. They're so good. I would I would kill for s being able to be able to write some of these jokes. Or to say whatever the thing is that succinct and that visually.

25:53 I think it's beautiful. I think we're on now, they don't assemble into much bigger ideas. They don't assemble into larger emotional events. And so therefore they're very digestible and excretable. Very quickly. I can't give you an example because of that.

26:10 But I love I love this quote unquote new form of entertainment. And I'm I don't even I don't even know if it's new. It's just Using A very specific Time.

26:21 Restriction. to to be incredibly pithy. Like if you could Can that level of entertainment for a feature length movie? God, that would be fantastic. I think this this might be finger exercises for a whole new form that we haven't seen yet.

26:35 Couldn't agree more. I actually find great joy of going on social media. I'm like, people are hilarious. They are the funniest thing I've ever seen. Sure, that's cool. Your blood feels slightly carbonated if you spend too much time on You know, like one of the things we started with is talking a little bit about like you have fact checkers on your show. And one of the things obviously, you know, Instagram Doesn't.

27:06 But one of the things that obviously is the huge discourse around the difference between you know, quote unquote traditional media and quote unquote new media. is this notion of responsibility. you know, responsibility of fact checking, responsibility of of of standing for

27:24 You know, when you when you make a claim To something in the world. that you've done something substanti to try to make that claim accurate. And who bears that responsibility? Well, that's part of the question for you, actually, and part of how do you think about this?

27:38 Not me. No, that's really never been like we choose that's why I was talking about fact checking. We choose to do it because it actually is good For the joke. Uh huh. Because these shows, generally speaking. You know, we all do them a little bit differently, but these shows, generally speaking, are about

27:57 Whatever the national conversation was today, we're kind of talking about our country back to the country. And to the world based on the English speaking world,'cause we're in a bunch of different countries too, but we talk about America back to America. And it really helps to try to be factually Accurate.

28:11 now I'm gonna give you my emotional reaction to what we what we believe is a factually accurate Chunk of today's Story. I don't I only I only have a responsibility to the work that I do.

28:26 Now the work that I do is served by being factual about it. Because That makes it Easier to write the second joke. 'Cause if you make up something for your first joke, you gotta make up something for your second joke.

28:39 You know what I mean? But one joke can build on another and the universe will conspire to give you the next part of the story if you're accurate about the first part of the story. It's almost like essay writing. When you get to the end of an essay and you can't finish your essay, probably because you didn't state your thesis very well. at the top. So you have to go back at the top and go, what was the thesis of this? And so by being factually accurate. That is only

29:03 like thematically useful to us in talking about whatever that subject is, because then there's probably another data point you can dig and find that supports the first joke that you made. But we don't even think about it that way. It's just that Don't make Shit up. And you probably have

29:19 A more successful set of jokes. That's all. You can always lie to get a laugh. But That's probably the last laugh you get on that subject. That's all.

29:28 So I feel no responsibility in that regard. Like people say, like, Oh, people get their news or what I'm sorry about that. I'm sorry that you got your news. from me,'cause I'm not trying to give you news. I that's why I never want to break news for the audience. I want it to be things that they generally know about, or I only have to explain a little bit. 'Cause it's all about Here is my experience of the thing you experienced today.

29:48 And also if you're factually accurate about it, you're more likely to hook up your jumper cables with the audience because they heard that same fact too. Well, so My question is like I I I feel the the humanness You know, you you like Taylor Swift's songs, it has a great hook, but you also like it because Taylor Swift created it. You know, there's something again about the human creation. When people think about AI, in addition to the like the reason I'm so excited about it is

30:13 you know, medical assistant and breakthroughs and breast cancer and sort of all of these other things. But when you think about it in the context of entertainment, People talk about how It can be so personalized. So people could create for you a personalized whatever, next Lord of the Rings that has Stephen Colbert's sensibilities and People could write jokes that just like don't break news for you because your level of news is XYZ, whereas someone else's, they read the Times today and this person read this. And so the personalization is one of the things that AI does best. Like Is that interesting to you? Or are you like, eh, I'm not I'm not moved by that. That's that's not the future I want to see of entertainment. I mean what you described was sort of theoretical.

30:55 So I don't know whether I would like it. You know,'cause I haven't had that experience. I mean, it may already exist. I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I just haven't had that experience. So maybe I would love it, but I generally don't Go. That I go to the most.

31:13 To have my experience reflected back at me. I want to Delve into something. That's a discovery. You know, there's discovery and there's invention.

31:25 And what you're talking about, I think, is invention. Something gets invented. Just for your needs. As opposed to discovery. Which is always gonna be greater than you could have thought of. And so and and like as a somebody started as improvisation.

31:40 The way I used to think about why you never never you didn't want to go in with pat material. You why you didn't want to go in with what we'd call trunk. You don't want to go with the the same old, same old every time. is because that was invention. You can only invent what's inside of yourself.

31:54 The the thing that you want and the thing that you achieve. Through Creative engineering, if you know what I mean. Which is craft, and there's nothing wrong with craft. But

32:05 Discovery is superior. Because discovery is outside of yourself. Discovery is something that you couldn't have thought of. you know, discovery is a whole new world. And even for things like let's say The Lord of the Rings, which I go back to Over and over and over again. You know?

32:18 in one of my writers this morning's pitch and said, I think That if I gave myself six months I could be You in a Lord of the Rings quiz. And I said

32:28 I mean, if you wanted to do have nothing in your life for six months But this, but that's what it would require. is to have nothing in your life because I read those books when I was twelve. And there were times when I had nothing in my life but those books. And I lost track of reading them.

32:45 At fifty. Like, you know, the number of times we're Lord of the Rings. And all I I spend all my time listening to Lord of the Rings, I spent all of my time still to this day Listening to lecture series. I'm listening to Corey Olsen's lecture series on the Lord of the Rings right now called Exploring the Lord of the Rings. It's like the fourth or fifth.

33:04 lecture series I've listened to from we're on episode two three hundred and forty four. Every episode is at least an hour and a half long. And maybe covers a page. Maybe covers a page. With i we're not even done with the first book and we're on episode three hundred and forty four. And he's talking about let's take these Four lines and what is implied by those four lines.

33:24 So uh the only reason I tell you all that is not to brag about What a chemopsychosis I fall into when it comes to Lord of the Rings or how dependent I am upon it. I tell you that because I don't go to do that because I know everything. Or I don't go in to do that because I um wanna just

33:41 what I believe fed back to me. I want to know more about something. You know, obviously there's that infinite depth of story and and kind of creativity and And

33:54 um expression'cause I was also, by the way, a Lord of the Rings geek. I think if we were to do a quiz show, I think it would you would knock me out in round one. Um but like what what is Lord of the Rings In addition to this kind of rich Creativity, storytelling, narrative universe.

34:10 What does it mean for you And does it inform at all how you look around at the world? Today. Yes. Okay. What does mean what does mean mean in this in this instance? And I don't mean to talk about it what your definition of is is. Um

34:29 You know, what is the tendency? of the story, you know? What what does the arithmetic mean? Not the average, but what is the tendency of the experiences of the book. And they tend to be about Lot of it is about the natural world. A lot of it is in Suspicion.

34:50 of abstracting from the natural world. Uh in other words, um Secondary creation. Or sub creation. Tolkien talks a lot about subcreation and that subcreation was a natural tendency of human beings.

35:05 And that We are we are made. You know, by definition by a creator. In in his worldview. And that we have that in us and in the likeness of that creator, we wish to subcreate as well.

35:18 Subcreation is a Big part of his work and also a big pitfall is to love too well the work of your own hands is a great sin. And that that your sub creation should be in accord with creation. And not

35:33 in domination. That's The pitfall. I believe that m professor would have with AI.

35:40 is that you love too well the work of your own hand and that you replace The experience of the creation with your own subcreation. You know. Uh Saran is an illusionist. When he's Anatar, the bringing of gifts, he says I he is he he clothes himself in beauty.

36:00 But it's it's false. 'Cause his heart is dark. And the and then and and there's nothing he can create that doesn't have the darkness in it. And Um

36:11 But but even people with the with the best of intentions in Tolkien's world. fall too in love with the thing that they've created. A fan or creates the Silmarills, which is the ultimate sin. The the original sin

36:24 in the entire uh Cosmology, the entire mythos. is there's the greatest elf of all time, Feonor, whom his name means spirit of fire. Theanor. wants the light of the two trees, Telperion and and Larlin.

36:40 Which was the light of the world. They weren't the first light, they were the second or third lights of the world. But these are the two trees that light. uh the world along with the stars. And It captures the the the light of the two trees in these three Gems called the Silmarills, and then the two trees get killed.

36:57 by Morgoth and Angoliant, the great spider, mother of Shelob. And more got the boss of Sarin. And Yvana. who is the basically the mother of the trees, goes, If you give me the light, I can bring these trees back and there'll be light in the world again.

37:12 Give me the gems. And he goes, What's gonna happen to the gems? He goes, Well, I'd have to break them. And release the light to bring the two trees back. And he goes No, you don't understand what I have done to create these. I can only do once.

37:27 It took Everything I know. And there was a specific moment essentially that allowed me to do this, a moment of inspiration. That allowed me to create this thing. And if And I would die if these things were to die.

37:40 And so I would rather the world be in darkness and I have the only light. Rather than to help anyone else. That is loving too much the work of your own hand, even though he loves the light of heaven, essentially. in in them. So those are themes.

37:53 Another theme is Well sacrifice. What is Fiona not willing to do? He's not willing to sacrifice something he loves. What is the great what is the great sacrifice? of Galadriel. Broto offers her the ring. And she says

38:08 I I I I I I I confess that I've I've long desired this. And if I took this, I would be a queen and all would look you know, uh beautiful and terrible and all would look out be me and you all would love me in despair. And she'cause she wants to be the queen of all Middle Earth. That's in her. That's why she's there. She's not.

38:27 An unalloyed good character. But She passes on that. And then She says this great line, which is I passed the test.

38:39 I will diminish. And pass into the West. And remain galadrial. Because that's About

38:47 The acceptance of the world as it is, not seizing power to manipulate into the world that you want it to be. Which doesn't just say you can't improve conditions. But It's The sick f seeking power in Tolkien's world is rejecting the world.

39:03 that was created for you. I mean all those things. Come on, all those things. Anyway. That's a short answer. That's an excellent answer. And there it draws parallels to some of the ways that I think about Lord of the Rings, which is the role of power in

39:22 human life and society, which is the Craft and The Um uh of remaking nature and so forth and the

39:33 potential that power corrupts absolute power corrupts absolutely, which is part of the SARON. versus Galadriel and you can you can look at the two towers as Saramon and Galadriel. uh two different You know.

39:47 uh so called warriors for the good making different decisions on power. And of course that's emphasized by your nature comments by Saromans. you know, kind of destruction of the

40:01 of the Ant Forest. around him. Anyway, there's very parallel uh points of view there. There's a great um Letter

40:11 I think it's letter one forty four. Yeah. By Tolkien. And he says, um The story is cast in terms of a good side and a bad side.

40:23 Beauty against ruthless ugliness. Tyranny. Against kingship. Which is interesting dichotomy in Tolkien's mind, because we would see kingship as tyranny, but

40:34 Kingship tyranny against kingship. Moderated freedom. With consent. In other words We're free.

40:42 There have to be moderations on our freedom so we can live with with society and it has to be done with consent. Moderated freedom with consent against compulsion that has long lost any object save mere power. And I think that is a Big struggle going on right now. Is that can we accept moderated freedom with consent?

41:01 Or Are we going to end up With Ruled by those who have lost any object save mere power. I think that's the great danger of our moment.

41:14 So this might be a good moment to come back on Kind of AI Sure. Um You know, part of the thing, you know, like When I've been trying to

41:26 Try to help reform a lens on on kind of how we think of ourselves as less homo sapiens, more homo techna. The the way that we express ourselves as human beings through technology. I think language is a form of technology. Um, I think that the question about like how we how we evolve because obviously genetic

41:45 Is is very slow. Could get way faster with your help from your friend AI. Yes, exactly. But um but AI is I think that form of technological You know, kind of

41:59 like that that technological journey of Homo techne. And I think That doesn't mean that all technology is inherently you know, good and useful. Like if we end up creating a you know, a nuclear

42:11 you know, tarball of a planet. We will love. Seriously. Fucked up. Um, but the

42:19 Uh but the question is, is it also creates a lot of what is I think The ability to do Kind of more you know, human things. It's kind of the you know broad based middle class and education and literacy and and and and you know the ability to have

42:38 You know leisure to have a theater and have a stage. And I think technology is that is a is is the enablement of that path. And I think AI is that. And so Uh can't it it will naturally be that, most likely, but Um and we have to shape it some.

42:54 But like, you know, there's everything from the utility of it, like a medical assistant that's there twenty four seven. In every pocket it isn't just Getting new drug molecules, but you know the vast majority of the eight plus billion people

43:08 On the planet. Do not have easy access to a doctor. Um so a medical assistant. But also I think You know, to the to the kind of learning path. You know, AI is the best learning technology.

43:21 Learning being part of how we elevate As As human beings. That has been invented. even including the book. Now builds on the book.

43:29 as a way of doing it. And so that's part of the The the humanness of AI that I think is actually in fact really important and part of the reason why Um

43:39 You know. I c I keep trying to pitch you on that that there is AI, um and I know that you're not an AI skeptic, but actually that we can see a uh a um a lens to a more human future with AI. Th that could very well be the case.

43:55 I'm not just not an AI skeptic. I'm an A I'm an AI ignorant. You know, I I really I'm speaking about what I perceive from the outside, and I kinda like being on the outside. I kinda like

44:09 Like show me the evidence. Of what it's done. Don't get me hooked on My excitement of the possibility. You know, I I I'll invest a lot in my excitement about the possibility.

44:23 I know that. Because the same reason why I don't have my tarot red. is that I don't actually believe the tarot is right, but those images are so powerful that I'll invest them. with my excitement and my belief in them, and I'll do this with AI too. I'm just hanging fire here and going

44:38 Show me the thing that Couldn't happen before. What is the thing that could not happen before? that m that may have moved beyond potentiality. You might be able to give me ten right now. I just don't know what they are.

44:49 I think AI is already Good enough. That consulting it for a second opinion that's different that's important and different than a first opinion? is actually in fact really useful.

45:02 I don't mean to be obdurative, but I just every example I get, I always want to go, Okay, well At the base of this argument is why should this becoming why should I to get through some not from a human. Why why is this better than this being a human doing this? I I think access is huge. I think that like you and I can get a second opinion, like costlessly. But I think so many people can't. So that is actually what's exciting to me. Like so much technology centralizes, but the idea that like

45:31 We could have we, of course, you can of a human is better. Yeah, I'd love to go to a human therapist, but I can't afford a human therapist because I don't have two hundred dollars a week. So even if it's actually inferior to humans, the access that more people get it is better than nothing. You might not be there, but I I I th I'm a hundred percent on board with you. You're absolutely right. Therapy is not the best best example. You're absolutely right. That that's very, you know

46:04 Narrow sided of me. Um You're absolutely right. And as you say, in many parts of the world there is no access to any medical care anywhere, and this could the you could have a med A a m a medical station manned by AI. Some place.

46:19 else. Therapy. That's not what that that's about what is being alive. I I would find that I mean I have trouble trusting a therapist about no one's being alive. Let it alone. I mean.

46:30 Took me a long time to go like you might understand what I'm saying. Listen, I love my job, but I can't do it forever. I'm just curious, if I was gonna do have another career after this and involve AI in it, what would it be? What would you recommend? Can someone it's you know, what am I, sixty one, let's say sixty two. Let's say sixty three. Let's say sixty five. Let's give me a few let's give me four more years.

46:50 Of the show. Well, I do think it will amplify Yeah, f I think people are already finding that it amplifies writers. I've I find that the second opinion thing Like I start with a Any time that like for example, Arya is familiar with this, is any time I start thinking about something

47:06 I'll actually do an AI research query and Like Aria knows kind of my thinking well enough. I could just send over the query to her and she goes, Oh This is what he's elaborating and thinking on and it creates a faster move between us as kind of a as a way of creating things.

47:25 So like I'm Like you know, if I have a hobby, it's like creating board games. Like I've been thinking about different patterns that you could make with these kind of battle card games.

47:38 And so I did a prompt and I just sent it over to Arya and she's like, Oh I see where he's thinking. What like give me an index of kind of all the different rule sets and and line that up to these themes that I'm thinking about and you know, da. And that kind of creates a hey, this could be a fun project. To create. And it's it's more of a question of of how do you use AI to extend your

48:04 creativity or gestures. And I think that those Those exist. Could say I think even now a particularly good joke writer. I mean we talked about this on your show. Um as part of the reason.

48:18 Yeah. Yeah, it's dad jokes and other kinds of things. It's it's fine. It's you know, how many how many Reed Hoffman's does it take to change a light bulb? Uh only one, but he has to bring his whole network. You know, that that kind of th that that that's a that's a chat GBT written light bulb joke. Um, you know, so but but you directing it and using it as kind of a set of orchestral tools That becomes very

48:42 Very possible, very real. Is it presently being used? I must be, right? It might presently being used in uh video game development. Because one of the great struggles of video game development has always been to is randomization of the experience. So that's totally doable. A lot of um

49:03 The earliest things in AI for video game is making it much faster and quicker to develop a bunch of different assets. Um, you know. the the the picture, the scenario, the characters and all the rest. There's There's there's NPC characters that are that are now much more intelligent because they're backed by AI. But that's just obviously the very beginning.

49:25 of what becomes possible. I feel like I've been way too tough on AI on this c in this conversation when I really am excited for whatever it brings. I just I just have a natural scepticism of technology. Well, this technology specifically because of how much science fiction I've read.

49:42 And also My love of how much I love Humans and how bad humans are at things. And now to Rabbit Fire.

49:59 Uh is there a movie? Song or book. That fills you with optimism for the future. Well, I mean when you think about optimism for the future and you think about books, my mind often goes to science fiction, of course. And

50:12 I would say some of the most optimistic visions of the future are even even in his darker stories. Or Asimov. Because he he believes in the power of technology. And Asimov.

50:26 as you know wrote in every uh Every section of the Dewey Decimal system has an Azimov book in it. And so he was this Uh polymath. Who believed in knowledge.

50:37 And was really a product of enlightened Enlightenment thinking. You know? And And what makes me hopeful for the future is that kind of science fiction.

50:48 And not that there aren't gonna be dark times, not that there aren't gonna be great Falls of civilization. But that really Toward The scientific and the rational is the right way to go.

51:00 without losing sight of the human experience. All right, rapid fire number two. Hold on. What is a yeah, you're good, you're good. What is a question uh that you wish you got asked more often? Can I get you something to drink? Right. Done.

51:15 So where do you see progress or momentum? Outside of comedy. That inspires you. Jose Andres inspires me. World Central Kitchen.

51:24 The simplicity of the simplicity of their message. We feed people. That's their motto. We feed people. And

51:35 Complex organization. Um now'cause it's so big. Um but their mission has not changed. Something terrible happens, they go try to feed people. With whatever they've got.

51:46 It's very improvisational. That's going like do you have any pans? We have sheet metal. Fine, we'll bang them into pans. You know what I mean? Like Whatever they got. 'Cause you know it's gonna be paille at the end of the day.

51:58 Or pasta. Exactly. Can you leave us with a final thought? on what you think is possible to achieve if everything breaks humanity's way in the next fifteen years. And what's our first step? to get in that direction.

52:15 I think I don't even know if these are Good goals. But some of them are just goals that I would like. And I think that would be inspirational.

52:27 I mean I think Going back to the moon would be good. I think people walking on the moon would be good. I think there is something sinister with the fact that we haven't done it.

52:37 Because I think that is a unifying moment. For someone. I don't care if it's us. Let the Chinese do it, let the Russians do, let the Indians do it. Let the Kiwis do it for Pete's sake. They've got a space program. And you know.

52:51 I don't I just get back up there. Get back the up there, you know. It this is too small of a basket. As Heinlein says. Earth is too small of a basket for humanity to keep all its eggs. And

53:03 I'm not even saying that like, boy, living on other planets is gonna be very difficult. I don't know if terraforming is a possibility. But just to know that that kind of achievement is possible, I think would have a unifying Psychological effect. For mankind. If anybody would believe that it was happening, because another conspiracy would come up that that's not even the moon anymore. That was actually paper mache.

53:23 Um But I I think that would be an interesting thing. Um I don't know if it's possible, but I think if you give me fifteen years To dream? If I'm I'm allowed to dream over technological advances, especially with our friend AI joining in the fight here.

53:38 Hey, I've lost too many friends to cancer. I I think Um wrangling the most difficult cancers to the ground. A lot of progress over you know, some of the more common cancers, but some of the the m terrible pancreatic cancer or brain cancer, those things are very difficult to treat.

53:54 That would be That that would be great. Um I would take a smart pill. If somebody could give me a pill that like one of those limitless pills.

54:04 I would take one of those. Those those gotta be coming, right? There's no downside to that possibly, is there? I also hope I'm just hoping in the next fifteen years that someone could paint a picture of me that I could keep in my attic. Yeah. That it would grow old and I would stay young forever. I've heard of it.

54:31 Possible is produced by Wonder Media Network. It's hosted by R Finger and me, Reed Hoffman. Our show runner is Sean Young. Possible is produced by Katie Sanders, Edie Alard. Tanasi Delos.

54:43 Sarah Schlee. Vanessa Handy. Aliah Yates. Paloma Moreno Jimenez. Emilia Hagudela.

54:51 Jenny Kaplan. It's our executive producer and editor. Special thanks to Surya Yalamanchili Saina Sabieva. Ian Alice, Greg Biotto. Parth Patel.

55:02 and Ben Ralis. And a big thanks to Steve Bodo. Betty Hald. Dan Burjanski and Anna Steinmetz.

What you see above is a preview of the first minutes. One unlock costs 10 credits and covers this episode forever: full segment and word-level timestamps on this page, plus .txt, .srt, .vtt and word-level JSON downloads, as many times as you like.