Transcript

Advice Line with Eric Ryan of Method

0:07 Hello and welcome to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. You can also send us a voice memo at hibt at id.wondery.com, and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And also don't forget Don't forget to sign up for my newsletter. It's full of insights and ideas from the world's greatest entrepreneurs. You can sign up for free at gyras.com. And we'll put all this info in the podcast description. Alright. Let's get to it.

1:04 Joining me this week is Eric Ryan, he's a serial entrepreneur, co-founder of Wait for It Method. Wellie. Ollie and so many other brands. Eric, it's great to have you back on the show. Guy, thanks for having me. Um you were originally on the show back in twenty eighteen, you and and Adam Lowry, your your method co-founder, um interviewed you guys in person in San Francisco.

1:28 Uh and just to remind people of the story, you guys were childhood friends from Michigan. Um you were both on the sailing teams and then after college you moved to San Francisco and then the nineties. uh starting a cleaning products business. And this, by the way, was when everyone in San Francisco in the nineties was talking about a tech company. You guys were talking about a cleaning products company, but one that was like was environmentally friendly, but that actually worked. And so in two thousand one you launched Method, uh selling the now very well known

2:00 sleek bottles, which g we talked about on the show how you spend so much time designing those bottles. Um the brand was eventually acquired by S Johnson, then you went on to co found uh as I mentioned, a bunch of other brands, including the the gummy vitamin company Ollie And the first aid brand, Welly. uh which were also acquired. Um by the way, if you guys haven't heard my original episode with Eric Ryan and Adam Lowry, uh I really recommend it. It's an excellent episode and we will put a link to it.

2:27 In the show notes. Um Eric, before we get to to today's callers, um, it's been a a few years since you've been on the show. So I wanted to just kind of ask a a couple of questions. First of all, you know, one of the things that you've done and and really started with with method is um You're not an expert necessarily in any of these things in vitamins or soap or you know, first aid.

2:51 But you go into into spaces that where you find opportunity. So how do you How do you think about about starting businesses? I mean, do you uh are you literally looking for where there might be an opportunity? Yeah, so I I definitely have like a a little bit of an academic approach to it. I like a lot of founders will follow something they're really passionate about or they see a problem in the world they want to solve. I I really start with like

3:16 Categories. And so I will um look for spaces that I think Ar a s of saveness. Um and that's kind of the clue dig here. And what I do is I look for what I call like the culture shift or the macro trend that that category is missing. So in the case of method, uh we found two is lifestyle of the home. Like nobody thought about these products as a as a form of self-expression in your home. I mean you look at a dish soap more than you use it. At the same time, this is back in 2000, you couldn't buy a natural product outside of a natural store. Um, but yet you were asked to pollute when you clean or use poison to make your home healthier. So those were the two macro trends of high design and deep sustainability that we built the brand off of. And so with within each business, that's the opportunity I look for. And I kinda then um, you know

3:59 build a strategy around it and to your point of like you just gotta get in and figure it out. Yeah, I remember you talking about with Method that you used to just wander the aisles of grocery stores looking for ideas. Still do. Yeah. Uh so right now I'm focused on uh building a functional candy brand called Tandy. You can find it uh target, Amazon. Wow, C V S. And functional means that it's kind of got h healthy things in it like nootropics or whatever. That's right. So it's uh I've always wanted I think Willy Wonka is my favorite movie of all time. So let's go be Willy. So uh Tandy is that better for you candy, low sugar, nothing artificial tastes great, but each one has a functional benefit. It's amazing how

4:39 many different brands you've built and and how so many of them have been successful. One of the things that I think is really critical to mention, Eric, is that you've also started brands that didn't work out, right? Which is Which is really important to to know, right? Is that in order to have those big successes you know, Ollie and Wellie and method. Um you also you gotta take big

5:01 Big swings, right? That's right. I love uh Tony my dear friend Tony Shea, who we lost, um, would always say like sometimes you're you're sitting at the wrong poker table. And um, you know, until you get into an industry and really understand the characteristics of it. And look, you always have to go in being naive. and having that beginner's eye, otherwise you wouldn't do it. Uh but no, fail failure is part of it. I've had failures of both on the business side as well as within the, you know, companies that have been, you know, successful. Um

5:29 You know, method we had an original personal care line called block that was a a massive failure. We talked about that massive failure and cost you guys a lot of money. And you pick yourself up and you get right back at it, and you keep building. Um but no, uh failure has to be part of it. And Uh, as I said to my kids, like with skiing, if you're not falling down, well, you're just not trying hard enough. And really you've become known as a as a sort of a a creative brand builder. Like you focus a lot on in the method conversation, we talked, I think, you know, a significant part of that conversation was just talking about the bottom. That that that really was so important, even though you were making an organic because a lot of people think, okay, Let's make an organic soap, we'll slap organic on the label, it'll say toxic free, and w you know, and people will will flock to it for th those reasons. And you're Your view is well that's not good enough. Let's make a beautiful bottle that looks so nice you want to put on your sink. And you know, if they discover it's organic afterwards, great. Yeah.

6:25 Like so, is design for you the core the the sort of the center? Of how you build products. It is, and it's not just I mean, I see design as part of a tool. in creating brands that have an incredible emotional connection. And I want to create brands and products that the second you see it, you want it. And then hopefully you actually need it, which is fun going into these like more fundamental categories. But the the heart of it, what I'm trying to create is almost like objects of desire. Um and I wanna create this emotional cor connection through great design, great creativity, like working every little touch point to be able to do that.

7:00 And I think if you really Dig down a little deeper, kind of part of like I say I'm a one trick pony, but part of my trick is I try to almost bring like an inner child approach to these very serious categories. And so I mean you look at method, it almost looks like what a what a kid would want to clean with. Ali, what I did was I brought kids' gummy vitamins to the adult.

7:21 market. Welly, I got adults to wear Yeah, uh uh And I think that's how I create that emotional connection is this almost like I said inner inner child approach to these very, very serious categories. Eric, when you launched Method, you know, twenty-five years ago, it was a different landscape, but how how does it I mean how do you think about

7:45 distributing a product, selling a product, is it is it are you leaning m heavily into online? Is it do you still believe in the traditional, you know, Walmart's targets and you know, Kroger's of the world? Yeah, I very much do. I think today it's just much more of an omnichannel approach. I don't think it's it's one or the other. And I don't think consumers look at that way. They don't when they see a brand that started off as more of a traditional D to C online brand, they see it inside of a target. They don't think of like, oh, there's that D to C brand now available in wholesale. They think like, Oh, that's that brand I love. And I think vice versa. And then for whole for someone like me Those retail partnerships are I I still think there's no more valuable real estate in America than than in NCAP. At a at a target.

8:24 Mm-hmm. Um and the efficiency of scales working with them is is still Really important. And is s for example with the candy. Is it enough to have an N cap or or to have, you know, decent placement of target or and then, you know, if you if you build it, they will come kind of thing, like it will sell on its own, or do you still have to

8:45 you know, putting in considerable dollars into marketing the thing. Yeah, I think it You know, I still think of advertising as a tax on an unremarkable product. And the better you get the product, the packaging, and something that creates that immediate connection. then marketing is really just gravy and jet feel to to be able to accelerate that. Um but today, no, you've got to you got to be able to win on shelf immediately. You gotta do that through great visual merchandising, great packaging, a product, you know, a product that is instantly under s you know, you can instantly understand But then no, you have to be uh building through Instagram, social, tick tock.

9:19 Um, y you gotta have to do it all today to to build a modern brand. And the ones that are really breaking out, you're you're seeing their ability to do that. Yeah. Yeah. Um Well

9:29 Congrats on on everything you've built and on what you're building now with Tandy. I'm I'm excited to to see where that goes. Um why don't we bring in our our first caller. You ready? Let's do it. All right, hello, caller. Welcome to the Vice Line You're on with Eric Ryan. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business. Hi Guy Hi Eric. My name is Aubrey Welasky. I'm calling from Franklin, Tennessee. Yeah.

9:52 Um, my husband and I own Transparent Hospitality. We have five locations in northern Nevada, and we recently just moved our four little kids to the greater Nashville area to expand our bakery and restaurant concept called Paren. All right, well welcome to the show, Ave. So you have a business that is a food business and what other what what's under that besides the bakery? So we kind of expanded our Or bakery concept. It's a Baker, Venoistri, naturally leaven bread, restaurant.

10:21 Um, and we expanded it to Pirn Grocery, where we have three different locations in Reno. We do have a little restaurant called Cleo, it's a rotisserie. So we recently decided to combine our rotisserie concept and our bakery concept. and open in the Nashville area. So we are We just opened actually I'm upstairs at the restaurant. We opened this week in Franklin, Tennessee. Oh congrats.

10:43 Thank you. Wait, do you have f you have five locations and four kids? Yes. It's amazing. Oh my gosh. So you've got and and you're splitting this between Reno, Nevada and Franklin, Tennessee. Okay, let's let's dive into this. And you do this with your husband, you said? Yes, my husband Tyler. Okay, and tell me how you guys how this all started, because this is a sprawling business. You've got uh a a bakery called Paren. Right? And then a grocery and you've got a rotisserie restaurant and then b bakery and restaurants in Tennessee. Yes. And all called Paren? All called Paren, yes. So we're kind of I mean, we have never done this before

11:20 We're kind of just going for it, as you can tell, we had four kids. Um so we we actually we met at culinary school in at the CIA in Hyde Park, New York. You and Tyler did. Yes. Oh nice. Um we're very passionate for the industry, but we also were really passionate about changing the industry. So we actually started as private chefs in the Lake Tahoe area that snowballed into having a catering company. and to supply your own catering company with great bread.

11:46 My husband taught himself the sourdough and then laminated pastries. And we decided to open A little bakery on the side while doing our Catering company. Wow. I'm I'm looking at your website for Paren. W w by the way, what does Paren mean?

12:01 It's short for perennial. Oh nice. Okay. And it's a great I love the little rabbit logo you've got. It's really cool. Um and the wow, the the pastries look Absolutely amazing. Um before I I ask you more questions, tell me what question you brought for us today. Okay, so as young entrepreneurs

12:17 My biggest question is how do we find a mentor? Та кінп гайдас. Help us with large Questions. While still maintaining the ethos and the vision that we

12:27 personally have. All right, good place to be. You've got two of them right here for the next few minutes, but um before we answer your question, Eric, any questions for Aubrey? Yeah, first of all, I love your I'm just looking at your site right now. I I love your your identity and uh I'm just in awe of how much you're you're doing. Uh it's it's absolutely incredible. So can congrats on everything. It's gotta be exhausting, but um what tell me a little bit more on the mentor advisor, where where are the areas in the business that you're feeling most insecure or where you feel like you need the most support as you're scaling up. Uh this business.

13:02 Uh probably around scale. We started as twenty three, twenty four year olds, really only leaning on our own intuition and what felt right, knowing that the backbone of everything was being very transparent. That's why we coined our company transparent hospitality with our not only our customers, but with our own team. Um We have now a team of a hundred and twenty people. Wow. Um we're not ever trying to become a

13:25 Um I mean everyone says are you going to you know to franchise will be become a chain I think we have so much energy and so much growth and we know all the things that we want to do and we want to be able to pace that out. So for us, we've never had a mentor. We've really just kind of gone with it and hoped for the best. But as we get a little bit more serious and have a little bit more people to take care of. We wanna make sure that we're, you know, bouncing ideas off.

13:50 of people, especially as we grow into a larger city. So I would say it's predominantly about about the growth and, you know, gauging whether or not it it is a good point to grow or when to take a pause. Abre you you I I imagine you feel like you're on a hamster wheel that just is never s gonna stop. Is that fair to say?

14:10 Yes, but it's all our own doing, you know. So It's a happy hamster wheel, if you will. Yeah. I I'm just in awe of what you guys have done because I know the food space so well and and Eric, you've uh been involved as an investor, I know, in when some food Uh brands. You know, bakeries, restaurants, really challenging business.

14:31 Yeah, uh to Guy Guy's point, I said on a couple of restaurant boards. One of them you're probably familiar with, Flour and Water here in San Francisco. And they're going through a similar process that you are uh we're building out a chain of uh pizzeria's and sort of scale up the business, but have you thought and you've taken new outside capital, have you thought about putting together either a small board or a small advisor group and there's different ways to compensate them through cash, uh, you know, what's considered more phantom equity. Um, but if you consider putting together like a small, maybe like a trio of advisors that could start to work with you uh almost as a uh as a board. Yeah. I would love to do that. I mean, you know

15:07 w one of the ways many certainly high end restaurants make it and s and thrive is there is usually an investor or a group of investors behind it, but certainly one kind of main investor who joins as an operator as well. And I know that's that to be the case with several, you know, sort of Michelin style restaurants in in the Bay area. What you guys are doing is just high level and you wanna f as you said, you wanna find somebody like a Danny Meyer, somebody who's not gonna uh c uh compromise, right, on quality. Going to your bakeries and people are gonna be just making Pillsbury You know, Pillsbury croissant or something, right? You don't want that. You want somebody who really um believes in the business. I wonder whether, Eric, whether that person is Also an investor. somebody who joins as an investor, but who also part of that is that they are

16:01 Helping to guide the business. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it I I get it too, like you have full control right now and it once you bring in outside capital, it comes with expectations of how you could provide a liquidity return on that. But if you could find the opportunity to bring in a long term partner who is Who who wants to build it for cash flow so you don't ever have that pressure to sell the business someday. And to guys point, who can also be a gr you know, smart money, a great strategic partner.

16:28 And look, this is a real passion industry too. And so finding somebody who's got that same passion that you have could be a nice Goldilocks fit. Can I ask you a question? regarding that investment. Peace.

16:40 Um, you know, we've we've had this for about six years now, so We do have, you know, pretty decent sales. How do you classify what would be it worth it to bring the investor to give up a s equity? Yeah, well, if you haven't done it already, and I'm sure your you and your husband probably get zero time together, but if you could like book a place to go for a few days and really build out what is your three to five year vision. And really build that vision and that plan of where do you want to get to and then work back

17:09 from there. Understand what can you know, can you self-fund it, or do you need capital to get there. And then once you decide um which path you need to go I would then figure out what are the key areas that you feel like you need to bring some uh you know, a few people in to really help you, whether it's uh it's operations, finance, And then populate around a a small advisor board of maybe three people, then you and your husband, so it keeps it to five. Odd numbers are always best. I think then then you have a real clear vision of who you need around the table and the beauty of putting together

17:42 Like if you don't take outside capital, you don't need a true board, but but having a a group of people function as a board, it kind of creates these like tent pull moments and puts structure around the business to help you create a really clear rhythm to help you scale more. And then I think once you build that plan, like I think everything flows from that. Whether you do need to take capital or not. Or if you want secondary to be able to get a little financial relief. Yeah, Abre, you are in the hospitality business, right, at the end of the day. I mean, obviously you're making an incredible product I can see, but but but really and I read your mission statement, really you're in the business of bringing people together around a shared experience, which is food. And I would really lean on finding somebody

18:24 world, right? If somebody from the hospitality business. And sometimes it's hard to ask people like, can you be a mentor? Because I'm asked that a lot and and it's tough. I don't always have time. But I think a a a maybe a a better approach might be Um Can I Talk to you.

18:40 Uh and ask for advice, but in the course of that conversation, your ask should be who do you know that I should talk to, or who are some other people who might be worth reaching out to and could you make a connection? Because sometimes people really do want to help but they don't have time. And sometimes it's just a matter of finding that right person at the right place at the right time who has the time and the interest and the passion. And I think it's about having the conversations first before directly just saying, Do you want to be my my mentor? Eric, do you get'cause I'm sure you get that a lot too, Eric.

19:13 I do. And that's why I think putting it into a structure of either a formal advisor or board, I think helps people get their head around to what the expectations are. And I agree. And the first, you know, always get a coffee date. And if you walk away from that coffee date being either both really inspired or they were able to push or challenge your thinking, then you know there's somebody that you want in your orbit. Yeah. Right. Again, get clear on like where you're taking this business. And then when you reach out to to individuals, you want to you want to really bring you know recruit them onto your journey of like, hey, over the next five years, we're gonna scale this to here. I need th you know, we need an advisor group of three people. We need somebody who really helped who's been there before and understands how do you scale. A service multi unit. business like this. somebody who really understands finance and how do we best capitalize this business.

19:57 And something you may want to consider about so you you d you can scale this without always your equity into it is CPG. You're building a brand that could really build a CPG business. But if you had three people around you, a great finance person, somebody who's scaled this type of business before, and a C CPG person, you kind of recruit them together as a team with you and bring them onto your journey. That may really help the w what the next three to five years looks like for you. Abreolasky, the brand, a company's uh called Perren.

20:27 Congrats. Good luck. It's awesome. Thank you so much. Thanks Aaron. Thank you, guy. It was such a pleasure. Incredible. Great to meet you. You too. Thanks. Um, I love I mean, I know you you know this business'cause you work with Flour and Water and I in San Francisco and and I just love I love these businesses because they are not cutting corners. Like you can see how they're rolling those croissants and how they're laminating that dough and and it's so much work. And then they and then it gets sold for a couple of bucks and that's it.

20:56 It's such a bespoke business and the passion and energy that you have to put into this and do it every day and the fact that they're doing it as a married couple with four kids. I it's unbelievable. I think I want her as my mentor. Right. I know. She she could really uh um and she will be, clearly one day she's gonna be mentoring people when she's kind of off the hamster wheel a little bit, but man, I don't think there's a direct flight from Nashville to Reno. So that must be a a pretty ch challenging commute. No, but if we're like I think Perrin it has the potential to be a big brand and hopefully just somebody listening there who could who could reach out and uh potentially help them on their journey because uh I think they've got real potential Okay, next up after the break, another caller with another business challenge. I'm Guy Raz, and we're answering your business questions right here. On the advice line.

21:43 on how I built this lab. Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz, and my guest today is Method Ollie Welly co-founder Eric Ryan. Um, Eric, let's take another call. All right, let's do it. Hello, welcome to the advice line, you're on with Eric Ryan. Tell us your name, where you're calling from and just a little bit about your business.

22:18 Hi, my name is Maggie Girth and I'm from Chicago, Illinois. And I founded props luggage, which is a carry on suitcase. That has its own built in leg system, so you no longer need a luggage rack when you travel. You basically pull out the legs and you just got you've got your your bag is its own Lega Drake. You can you don't have to bend down to get your stuff. It's just Right there.

22:44 It's right there. Maggie, it's great great to have you on the show. You have been to how I built the summits in the past. In twenty eighteen and twenty nineteen you were at the summits. I was there at both summits. So and you met Eric, yeah, at our at our how I built the summits, yeah. I did. I met you guy and I met Eric. So this is uh extremely thrilling and I'm I will tell you, I had this idea over years of traveling with four daughters and messy hotel rooms.

23:15 I I thought about it for years. And a friend of mine invited me. Uh to join her. At the summit. And so I went with this idea in my head.

23:27 And went again the next year and I will say after the second year I said, Okay, it's time for me to I'm in. Yes, I did. I'm gonna do this. And what were you doing before before you started this business? I was in investment banking out of school. Um І автора восста.

23:49 And um so basically I was I was raising my girls and when they got a little bit older I decided to just go for it. I love it. So you started so you basically started to work on this idea, which now is a real thing. You've sent me one, so thank you for that. I've have it. It's awesome. And it's a you you worked, I think you worked with a designer, right, to get get everything right. Like'cause he wanted the legs to come out and it's not just a

24:16 I think you can like you can use it at the airport to put like a cup of coffee on it or even your legs to rest on it if you want. Like I don't think you can sit on it. No, but a lot of people so originally uh My vision was to use it in hotel rooms because you know there's always one luggage rack um But when it was launched, what became even more popular was Um

24:40 It's use in the airports for people who travel a lot for work. Or pleasure. You know, how often are we all stranded? in the airport for hours and um you know you kinda you set it up and you put your laptop on it and you've got your own work station or

24:58 You put your meal You know, you don't wanna be juggling your meal on your lap. So it it really um І developed a lot more popularity. For use in the airports, which was great. Tell me and I think you're mainly selling them direct to consumer, but you are in some stores, I think, some boutiques, right? Yes, actually. Um we started out, this has all been self funded. Um

25:23 My yes, wow. Um, my husband has been huge support. Um so we work together. But um We started out direct and then we were lucky enough to B uh put into the in motion stores in airports. Yep. We've also um we just recently got into the container store. Nice. Which is nice.

25:49 Maggie, vr very just very briefly, how are sales doing? I mean this is a tough this is a tough category, right? There are some very, very big players and Yes Um, and it is a a relatively crowded category, which isn't a problem, but how you know, you're a small player, how So far how how how has it been? With sales. The first year was a little bit slow because it was all direct. Um

26:13 on our Instagram. So it was about Fifty thousand the first year. Um Then we started to gain a little momentum and now we're on um Probably this year.

26:26 About Two fifty. Mm-hmm. That's that's helpful. All right, and and your question for us before I bring in Eric? So my question is Do I stop the self funding and just realize in order to

26:39 Really m move this ahead aggressively, do I decide to take on investors or partner or bank loans? Alright, Eric Ryan. Lots to lots to ponder, lots to Yeah.

26:52 Yeah, so I th I think it at the heart of it, like that that's a personal decision. And I I've always heard a great expression of you can either go for control or a financial win. Meaning If you want to just continue to We have full control.

27:05 and and really build this um yourself. It's gonna be a slower, longer build, but you can have control. If you wanna really scale up, you're gonna have to in and have a bigger financial win, you're gonna have to give up some control. And that's that's what is required when you bring in partners and advisors. So it really goes back to a very personal question of of What do you want to do? What type of business do you want to build? There's no right or wrong answer here. Um, I think you've done a great job of disrupting the category with what I call an attribute. Um but the way you think about attributes, benefits, and experiences I think the opportunity, if you brought in outside capital, is how do you turn this into a brand and a product experience that's bigger than just the props on it? And um, whether it's like you're really building a smart suitcase, a smart way to travel. I might even drop the S and just call it prop.

27:51 Um, but I I think you've you've found a way into the category and a point of differentiation, but for this to be really a long term success, the props is gonna have to be just one of the attributes of a smarter way to Um to travel. Right. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I is this patented? Is your design patented? Yes. It is. Okay. So it's a patented design and it's really right now gonna appeal to people who also have this same problem. The question is, um, can you broaden it broaden it out to people who don't have this problem? Like some people just don't care. They're just gonna throw their suitcase on the ground at the hotel or on the it's the the if it's a there's two beds and they're just they just need one, they're gonna throw on the other bed. You know, when when when I think of of suitcases that that I have at work, I mean some of them have

28:35 You know, actually I guess fewer of them now have the the plugs because the airlines don't like that. But you know, the just the different pockets or the different compartments or the different ways that they allow you to organize clothing inside. There are other features, the a hard case and the hard shell, the look, right? I mean I think a lot of what differentiates sort of the higher end, the Remoas from you know the others is they f they focus on the design, the look of it. You know, I think those are all things you want to think about, right? And and and Have you had any interest from from investors so far? Has have you been approached by anybody who said, Hey, you know, I think I this is something I like to get involved with? We have had a few, um, but nobody that we've moved forward with. One thing that I would love to ask both of you is

29:19 You know, my intent was never to just have a one product. You can't have a brand So this was never my intent just to have the one carry on suitcase. I always I have a plan in my head.

29:35 I've had high demand for the next size. Um, from those who have the carry on, they now want the larger case, but then The tariffs just hit, so Things have been paused. But uh

29:50 To that question, like how important do you think it is? to expand the line You can't just have a company or brand that has one product. Yeah, I think it's really really hard long term to build one product. I think it'd be in one category really well. I think the white space for you too and some of those brands that Guy just mentioned that are are really elevated in design and like to me, um, but they're at a very high price point. And you have a much more sophisticated customer and a younger customer that is traveling, you know, twenty-year-olds travel in ways that 20 year olds used not to travel. And so I think you could build, you know, elevate the design. You know, the the prop feature is part of this overall more smart approach to baggage. But I think you gotta you can ladder up, build a bigger brand.

30:34 Um that's m feels more elevated, but at a affordable price point. I think that that's the real white space opportunity. But yeah, it it's gotta be bigger than a product feature and it's gotta be bigger than just one suitcase. Um to build a successful company here. Yeah, I I I agree. And I also I would also go back to your to your original question about whether whether to seek out out help. I mean I think that look As as you know, being a former investment banker yourself, it's a tough environment now. It's tough time to raise money in in any C P G category. I think Eric you can probably attest to that, although you probably don't have a problem because of your your track record. It's always hard. It's a it's a tough environment now, right? Pee money is tight um because of uh uncertainty, right? Tariffs, economy, what's gonna happen.

31:19 The bond market scared. But I that being said, I mean you're in Chicago, right? There's a a a robust sort of network of of founders and builders. I was just in Chicago a couple weeks ago and met with some and it's an awesome just an awesome hub of of entrepreneurship. I mean, if you have conversations and you can start to have conversations around potential partners, I would really consider it, especially if you could find somebody who has

31:45 some experience in travel or in hospitality, some some something connected to this space, brand building, who can help you sort of develop it. I I I think that it might be worth thinking about bringing somebody on if if you can find it. Right. Right. And to build on that, you don't have to make the decision to raise capital. You can make the decision just to go explore it. So plan A could be to continue to bootstrap it and grow it organically. And then to Guy's point, go out there, really socialize and see if you find a partner that would be a great fit that you're inspired by, and then you can make the decision whether you take the capital or not.

32:19 Right. I would also be open to the idea and I would love your thoughts on just Licensing the leg system idea to larger brands. I think it's a great thing to can to to to explore. For sure. Er I what do you think, Eric? Yeah, I think it's free cash flow. So that's always a great a great thing. Less likely to get knocked off and somebody trying to work around your patent if they're just able to access it. And I think it'll put pressure on you to build props into something bigger than just that feature, if you're gonna be able to license it to to others. So and same thing, like you don't have to make the choice to do it or not, you just make the choice to go explore it.

32:55 See what opportunities come along, and then you can make the decision to to execute a deal like that or not. But uh free cash flow for a founder, like all day long. Right. Maggie Earth, the brand is called Props Luggage. Maggie, thank you so much for for calling in. Thanks so much for coming to the summit and um and keep us posted. Thank you. So uh so appreciate both of you, and I hope you have another summit. I hope so too. Great to meet you, Maggie. Nice to meet you too. Yeah, I I do not I can't remember last time I checked a bag.

33:25 Uh yeah, no, I I think checking a bag is a failure as a traveler. I I think I fell in love with my wife when I did our first trip together and I saw how small her carry on was. Uh Stay with us because after the break, we'll talk to another founder working to take their business to the next level. That's after the break. I'm Guy Roz and you're listening to the advice line right here on how I built this lab. Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Roz, and today I'm taking your call with Eric Ryan, brand builder extraordinaire. Um Eric, let's get back to it and take another call. Alright, let's do it. Welcome to the advice line. You're on with Eric Ryan. Please tell us your name, where calling from, and just a little bit about your business.

34:24 Yeah, hi Guy. Hi, Eric. Uh thrilled to be here. Um I'm Matt Angorn, calling from Scotchdale, Arizona. I am co-founder of Flitknit's three in one adventure gloves. Uh Flipknit switch or flip between a mitten, a fingerless glove, and sweatpants. They help you stay warm when you're cold and dry when you're hot. So wait, like sweatpants for your hand, basically, is that what you're saying? Yeah, yeah, sweatbands so they swe sweat bands, sweat bands. Sweat bands, yeah. They wear gloves. I was like sweatpants. Yeah, they convert to mittens. Oh wow. Like running and then Yeah, they would slide them down and you're wearing a sweatpants and they keep you dry or act as a hand towel when you're running. Okay, so this is a flip mitt. It's like a glove that that opens up and then it can you just your fingers are free and or it can go in your wrist. Tell me what what just c before I ask you about the business, what are the use cases here? Yeah, so we initially created this for trail runners was kind of our original uh uh case. You'd go running on a cold morning, your hands would be freezing, but then very quickly your hands get sweaty, you're looking for a place to put your gloves, and then the end of your run you've got, you know, soggy gloves and cold hands. And so this actually transitions through the whole run. It keeps you

35:34 warm in the beginning. It keeps you dry in the middle of your run. And then at the end of your run you can just slide them back on and they keep your hands warm again. Yeah, I like that I I I lived on the East Coast ten years ago. I lived in Washington, DC. I used to love like those freezing cold mornings, like eighteen, nineteen degrees to take runs and I just run better in them. But your hands, it's just it's torture. Right, they're so cold. But then when you warm up, it's obviously better. So that's where the idea came from. This is a problem you had? Yeah, yeah, this was a problem I had. I used to run around in the trails in New Jersey and I just my hands were over and I always had cold hands. I would wear fingerless gloves inside. I would buy'em by packs of twelve and lose them. And so the ability to always have them on your wrist when you want them and then just slide'em back onto your hands ended up having a lot of other value too.

36:21 So tell me about where you're selling the Flip Mits now. Where like where can you get'em? Sure. So primarily via our Shopify store, Flipmix.com. Uh we're also on Amazon, um and we're on QVC. We actually did a test run with QVC in January. Uh that went fairly well. Um so those are the three primary places. We've gone out and visited Walmart. Uh the real challenge there has been uh gotten a lot of great feedback from uh and interest from retailers, but they don't really know where to put our product. Is it for runners, is it for cyclists, is it for hiking? And so um that's kinda one of the challenges I'm calling about. And tell me a little bit about sales. I mean, how are you doing so far? How are you doing this year? Yeah, so um it's been a roller coaster chasing inventory like so many different uh companies that call in. Um but we've done really well. We've done a little over six hundred thousand in sales uh to date. That's over the course of your whole your whole business. Yeah, yeah, but half of that came uh in twenty twenty four.

37:19 Uh we kinda you know started off with um one color Two sizes. We scaled to four sizes and four colors. And then we uh started launching graphics like skeleton hands and rainbows and trying to make it more fun. Um and so yeah, and then we launched heavyweight Last year. And then um we're launching sun gloves uh this summer for sun and sweat. And um if we've been doing events, going to running events and the feedback's been great. We've had customers buy ten, twelve, twelve times. Is this design patented at all?

37:50 We've got trademarks and copyrights, but very difficult to patent apparel. Yes. Has anybody knocked you off yet? Uh not yet. Waiting for it, worried. Hopefully it doesn't happen. What question do you have or challenge are you facing? Yeah, um I would love your advice on scaling beyond Shopify and and Amazon, right? We really we were in we I did some bouti stores running cycling in the beginning. They were excited, but they didn't really move.

38:16 And it does really well when I can explain it to people. Um people just go, oh, I get it when I give them a demo. But the but the moving it on off the off the shelves on their own has been difficult. We have improved the packaging. We've put the photos of the product on the packaging, but I do wonder if we needed to take it to another level. Just kind of curious um what kind of advice you would have from me on that. Yeah, first of all, like seeing this is like why did nobody think of this before? It's pretty genius. Thank you.

38:43 I think a couple of ways to think about it. So I heard your problem before of like in conversations with Walmart and where where does it go in the store and and looking at your site. It's your point too, there's this this consumer education. And I always look for things that like hit that intersection of novel and familiar. And you've got a really, really novel, obviously, approach to gloves. It takes it takes some education. So I think For retail to work, you've gotta be able to really

39:05 Put it into that space of familiarity. And possibly maybe the right way to do that is you create different versions of it targeting different use occasions. So if you were to go into Walmart, so you've got a sport version. that can live in the sports section that's calling out specifically for runners. Uh maybe you've got one that goes in a hunting section. Maybe you've got a seasonal one that comes out when the winter gloves and sits in the winter gloves. Oh yeah, I like that. So is that familiar like I'm buying gloves. Oh, and then the the the novelty of like oh this is a different type of glove. I love that idea of of of thinking about different ways and and and and you are doing some of that already, I think, Matt.

39:43 Yeah, yeah, and I love that approach and you and you totally nailed it, right? I've got hunters, cyclists, I have tattoo artists, people from all walks of life. Anytime your hands are cold and you want control, um you have nurses that use them because you can wear them underneath. rubber gloves. And so they are so adaptable. So I love that idea of packaging them for specific um activities versus just doing infographic after infographic, which is kind of the approach I've had so far. And you could call like the runner's glove or the hunter's glove. Um, but also too, like you've you've kind of created the world's most versatile Glove. I feel I feel like you need to kinda ladder this up to the world's best at at something. Yeah. I go back and forth between the age old wisdom of like find your tribe and grow your tribe and and really try and um you know grow with their needs versus this product that can go

40:36 so many different ways and and I kinda look at like Crocs I feel like as a similar example sometimes where it's kinda different. It's g still a shoe, but it's different and and trying to take what I can learn from that. Yeah. And I wonder whether you could do more of a weightlifting glove that has like grips on it, you know, something that is really designed for weights or for the the bar, but but but gripped. Yeah. Yeah, I love that idea. I've done

41:03 Um I've done weather prototype palms and I've tried to do the grip one. Um we we've been trying to produce in North America and I haven't been able to do find how to do the grip in North America. So if anybody's listening, call me. But um that can do that. But um yeah, I love that idea. We've got have had rock climbers ask for like extra grading on the side for um like rock abrasion and things like that. And so that's absolutely where I'd love to go. And it's been chasing that inventory and having that, you know, we were sold out for almost all of January. Um and just trying to get it back in stock before you know the season warmed up was uh was a heart attack for myself and my partner. Yeah. Looking at I was debating whether you should ladder up and build a brand because flip flipnet says I think you're most more like a flip flop than a croc. And Flipbits feels

41:48 It's very much a product brand. And I was debating in my head, like, okay, should you go up and build a brand above and then Flipmits is your product brand? But I don't know what you'd ladder up to. And I think I would do the opposite. I would like ladder down of what you're talking about, be hyper specialized. So build build these hyper specialized use uses, just like you said. Um, and also licensing could be really I mean University of Michigan.

42:11 Flipmits available in the stadium, you know, starting in late October. Um and like look for those the you know, uh I think licensing also could be a great way Uh To to open up some of these use educations, but I would go hyper specialized. I love that. And we've had some some small businesses on this show that have done licensing deals with

42:32 with big schools. It's it's possible to do. It's not as as onerous as one might imagine, and that's uh That's a great idea. I love that. I do imagine it to be incredibly onerous, but I I do think it's an amazing opportunity and I appreciate the encouragement. The brand is called Flipmits Matt Anghorn Thanks for calling in. Congrats, good luck.

42:50 Thank you so much, Guy and Eric. Appreciate it. Great to meet you. Likewise. Are you runner? Is that uh you are you a runner? I can't remember. Only only when chased.

42:59 Yeah. Right. I should run more. Yeah. No, no, no, no, it's okay. I just did a long run the other day and I Jacked up my Achilles heel and now I can't run. So I gotta wait for five days for it to heal up. Isn't over fifty fun?

43:16 It's so so fun. So fun. But I got across it. I work out a lot, but I don't know. That's good. That's very good. You can wear Flipmint next time. I know, it's kinda but like one of those things like why did nobody think of that before? Lot of inventions today. A lot of inventions, cool, right? Um Eric, before I let you go, a quick question that I ask everyone who comes on the show, which is

43:35 Now with all of this experience, you know, as you become a A wise old man. Um what what what would you b said to you, you know, when you're twenty two, twenty three Starting method, twenty four, I can't you're so young. Um when he started that brand out.

43:50 with Adam. If you go back and say hey, I'm gonna give you a piece of advice Here it is. It would have been my relationship to time. be much more patient. And don't be in such a rush.

44:04 You know, building You know, building strong foundations takes time in entrepreneurship. But also at the same time Sh you know, treat treat your time.

44:15 Precious Scarce commodity. that uh that you have. And I think pacing as an entrepreneurship is one of the biggest challenges and I think it's a theme we heard today. Um, if you really get to the heart of a lot of what everybody was struggling with, whether I take capital, how fast do I grow, it's really about the right pacing of building a business.

44:37 That's Eric Ryan, the man behind the brands, Method, Ollie Welly, and so many others. Uh Eric, it's great great having you on the show today. Thanks so much for coming on. Always a pleasure, guy. Thank you. And by the way, if you haven't heard Eric's original How I Built This Episode, you gotta go back and check it out. We'll put a link to it in the podcast description. And here's one of my favorite moments. From that interview. I read it at one point, Eric, that to prove that this really was non-toxic, you actually drank it. Yeah, so I was in London, you know, I love the British press, they're so sceptical.

45:09 And she said is it You know, safe enough to drink. I was like, sure. So we both took a shot at the toilet bowl cleaner. Okay. And then I immediately uh text Adam finally got back to me. I was like, Hey, just drank the toil bowl cleaner. I'm gonna be okay. Right.

45:24 Thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free at gyras.com. Each week it's packed with tons of insights for entrepreneurs and my own observations and experiences, interviewing some of the greatest entrepreneurs ever. And if you're working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us about your business, the issues, or questions you'd like help with. and hopefully we can help you with them. And make sure to tell us how to reach you. You can send us a voice memo at HIBT at ID.wondery.com or call us at one eight hundred four three three one two nine eight

46:08 and leave a message there and we'll put all this in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Catherine Seifert with music composed by Raptine Erablui. It was edit by Andrea Bruce. Our audio engineer was Neil Rausch. Our production staff also includes Chris Massini, Alex Chung, JC Howard, Carla Esteves, Casey Herman, Sam Paulson, Carrie Thompson, John Isabella, Niva Grant, and Elaine Coates. I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening. How I built this.