Advice Line with Stacy Madison of Stacy’s Pita Chips

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0:48 Hello and welcome to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show. Who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1800-433-1298. Send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. And you can also send us a voice memo at hibt at id.wondery.com and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And also, don't forget to sign up for my newsletter. It's full of insights and ideas from some of the world's greatest entrepreneurs. You can sign up for free at guyroz.com or on Substack. And we'll put all of this info in the podcast description. All right.

1:37 Let's get to it. Joining me this week is Stacey Madison. She's the founder and namesake of Stacey's Pita Chips. Stacey, it's great to have you back on the show. Thank you so much. It's so I was really excited and I'm flattered that you asked me. We love we were you were first on the show in twenty nineteen, you went to the High Bilt The Summit. Um and as always, for those of you who haven't heard Stacey's original episode, we will put a link to it in the episode description. Stacey P so many listeners are the years. We we have like six hundred plus episodes in our archives. So many people tell me

2:09 yours is their all time favorite. I hear it again and again all the time. And do people still come up to you and say, Oh, I remember your story from how I built this? They do. That's the connection that they make. It's so c it's crazy. I mean, people it's an amazing story. You I mean, you talk about how you start out as a social worker, you were in Washington, DC, and then You moved around a bit and then you tried a bunch of different things, and then you and your partner at the time, Mark, you decided to come back to to Boston area where you you guys bought a hot dog cart and tr and kinda turned it into a sandwich cart like pita sandwiches and and uh and you had all this extra pita every day, so you started to toast it and You know, toss it in in Parmesan cheese and then you would offer these.

2:49 toasted pita chips to people waiting in line for their pita sandwich. And this is how Stacey's Pita Chi began. I mean they were It's an amazing story because they were so popular, it became this huge brand, eventually sold to to Pepsi. In two thousand six. Uh I know that you started a couple of

3:06 Oh. you had an energy bar business, which were awesome. I love them. I know neither of them are st are going at the moment, but but tell me a little bit about um about what you've been up to in the last couple of years. Yeah. So I'd like to say I've been raising my kids and both of them are seniors in college and gonna graduate this year.

3:28 Um I had Stacey's juice bar, which I have to say was really Um next to Stacey's Pita Chips was my passion because When I started the Pita Chip company, you know, I was selling healthy sandwiches. And

3:45 Um, with the juice bar I was able to kinda make The cart come to life. and m make, you know, healthy lunches come to fruition through juices and smoothies and we sold salads and quinoa's and And we sold the B Bold bars. You s you had basically start an energy bar. They were so good. They were like they had oats and chocolate chips and uh they were so popular that people said you've got to sell these in the stores. You gotta sell these at grocery stores. Yeah. Everybody everybody was, you know, would buy one with their lunch. And I had a huge following. I was in the suburbs. You know, it was very

4:22 Kinda local, you know, I'm not a social media kind of person. So um we also got a buyer actually who listened to how I built this. And was interested, you know, they'd had the pita chips forever and was interested in buying the bars. And um So we got twelve hundred stores.

4:42 put more money into it, produced enough to sock the shells, produced enough to You know, have back up for it. And Yeah. And then the pandemic hit and then It ended up

4:55 Costing a lot of money. Um it Definitely burned me out of the entrepreneurial world and um You know, it's still

5:06 It still hits hard. I can imagine how much energy that was sucking from you and I guess it I mean, it sounds like it just wasn't fun anymore. It was No, it's it's it and it's really hard because fifty thousand Dollars in bars. Yeah.

5:24 And had to make the decision, am I gonna take and throw two hundred and fifty thousand dollars in the dumpster? Or am I gonna invest some more? And try to make a go of it. Yeah. At a certain point you're you're sort of saying, Well, I can pour more money into this. And keep going.

5:40 Or I can say, All right, it was an interesting experiment and move on. I mean you there are all these other things that you do. You are an investor, I think you're an early investor in sweet green and and evolution juice and a couple of other Cool food brands. I wanna go back to to Stacey's for a moment because that story It's a story that that comes up often.

5:59 in my conversations, in part because It it was the side hustle to the main hustle, right? Like And really what you started to see was people asking for those chips. It wasn't And I and I wonder, you know, if if you can kind of speak to this idea of

6:15 Of when you know That actually The side project is really the thing that you have to We hit the gas on. and and the thing that you th that you thought you were doing.

6:26 You've got to kind of roll it up. When did you Start to understand. that the sandwiches were not actually the business. It was these chips that you were handing out for free to people waiting in line. Yeah, it's kinda like you have to make a decision. Am I going am I in the fork in the road, am I going right, am I going left, right?

6:44 And the decision was based on Um We're in New England. And so your income's really only in the good weather. And uh

6:55 Over the winter. Work on the marketing, the packaging, went to trade shows, talked to other snack food companies. Yeah, and kinda got it ready to launch. The second year we had

7:09 Um Yo a little help at the food cart so that we could focus more on the chips and then eventually we Um in ninety seven we ended up just yeah doing the chips. It just made more sense because of the the the just the demand that you were hearing from people, the chatter, or did you actually start to see the dollars coming in?

7:30 were or heavily more heavily weighed toward the chips. Chatter. And and can I can you make me an extra bag, like just bulk, so I can take them home? When people you know, asking you questions like that. You know, it listen to your customers. Yeah.

7:45 I mean that is so super important. And that and then you know w you ask the question, Well when do you know When you switch or you make that decision. My answer would be You need to

7:58 Prove out the concept. Outside of just Where you are. So you have to take whether it's Uh taking the bags of chips to the stores. Talking to the stores, sampling them at the stores.

8:11 Uh things like that, like you know That's what helps you make those kinds of decisions. Yeah. Um

8:19 Before we get to to to our callers, I wanna ask you just w one more question, which is You know, w when you started this, right, the food cart, this was in the nineties. And when you started this, it was like people had to show up at the cart. And you'd find out about it'cause somebody would say, Oh, I'm going to stay I'm going to Peace Cardin in Boston Common or Downtown Crossing. Now you would have an Instagram account and you would ha have a bunch of social media accounts and Right.

8:45 I hear you did. I mean, But do you think that if you were starting Stacey's cart today And then the chips. Would you do you think you'd have to go about it differently?

8:55 to to have the same kind of impact? I would say I have to be a Victim of The times. Yeah.

9:06 I think it would be very hard to speak to this to the times right now and to this generation if you don't get on their own Microphone. Like if they're on Instagram or TikTok or whatever. It is hard.

9:20 To reach. So That's a that's an important part of it. Yeah. So Stacey, why don't we go ahead and take our

9:28 First caller, you ready? Oh yeah. Definitely. Definitely ready. Okay, hello, caller. Welcome to the advice line you're on with Stacey Madison. Founder of Stacey's Pitachips, please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just one quick line about your business. Yeah, hey Stacy and Guy. My name is Sam Cagle and I am based in Utah.

9:46 I'm the founder of Dogai. It's an online community and an e commerce brand. Dedicated to homemade pizza making. And so we provide the physical tools, the resources, and the inspiration. So that anybody can make restaurant quality pizza right at home with nothing but a regular home oven.

10:03 Yeah. What do you m what do you sell? It's a it's a pizza steel. So it's a sixteen inch by sixteen inch steel. That you bake pizzas on in a normal oven. So like a pizza stone, but it's a piece of steel which I've had before. And you put the steel in the oven and then you heat the oven up and then The idea is that you're gonna get a a a pizza that's more like a restaurant pizza. Exactly.

10:22 Awesome. Um tell m when did you start the business? Yeah, so I officially launched the business April of this year, about end of April. So it's been pretty recent. And how did you c come I mean, w were you like a in were you a baker? Were you working at restaurants? No. So I've I mean I've always loved baking. I've always loved baking like desserts and bread, but I had never really dabbled with pizza. Um, and so the story goes so summer twenty twenty four, last year. I quit my job to become a stay at home dad. And I never like I said, I always love baking, but to keep my sanity, I decided to dive into homemade pizza making. And start an Instagram page to document the journey.

10:57 And I discovered you don't need like a fancy pizza oven to make really good pizza at home. And so in January I decided to do a series Where I bade a pizza every single day until I got a Dave Portnoy pizza review. And so obviously he's Wow, how'd you do that? How'd you get Dave Porno to review your pizza? So I'cause he's like the pizza king. He's the pizza king. And he's a pretty controversial guy, so it kinda took off. But like I said, so I started a a series where I made a pizza every single day, posted every single day until I got his attention.

11:25 And I flew out to Chicago and I got a pizza review from him. First home made pizza First pizza from Utah. Um, and he gave me a really good score. And I had about two weeks.

11:36 Uh before the review came out, where I basically set up my entire company, set up everything with my manufacturer'cause I had nothing ready to go. Because I thought this was gonna take like a year or longer. Like I didn't think he was just gonna Like have any random guy come out and make him a pizza. Um, but the day it came out, I launched my business. And um after that was off to the races. How much have you done so far in sales? Yeah. So since April we've done uh just north of three hundred thousand in revenue. It's awesome. And and uh and s and congrats on getting Dave Porno to review it. I've had a pizza steal in the past. It's an awesome

12:11 You know this is not again, you this is not a new product. You didn't invent the pizza steel, but you basically have a community of people who w I guess who follow you on on social media and And uh and you make pizzas and stuff. Yep. Yeah, that's right. And so that's really where I differentiate myself. I'm so I built this community on Instagram. I have Since January I've grown to about a hundred and thirty thousand followers. Um, and people are very into it. People are very loyal to the brand dough guy and they love

12:39 Everything pizza making, um, because my my whole brand is making it as simple. And easy and fun as possible. And to show that really anybody can do it. It's not like some hidden Or gate kept thing that's so hard to do to make pizza. Um, anybody can do it and it's really fun and easy to do.

12:55 It's fun to do with your kids too. It is. Let me let me ask you a question. I have uh I've and for years have had pizza m um ovens, right? And and The beauty of these things is they get really hot. Usually you want to cook your pizza like between, you know, six and seven hundred fifty. Yeah. Um A c a conventional home oven only gets up to five hundred, five fifty. Yep.

13:17 So can you I mean, why would somebody pick the steel over a uh uh like a an Ouni pizza oven or or even a a big green egg? Yeah, I mean there's lots of reasons. The first reason it's a lot cheaper. Um and it's a lot more convenient. To do. A lot like

13:33 How many Americans live in an apartment where they can't have a pizza oven outside? And they can't have all this space to make pizzas. And that's where the pizza steel comes in. So pizza stones have been around forever. Um they don't get quite hot enough to get that perfect black and under carrots that everyone loves on a New York style slice of pizza.

13:50 The steel gets up high enough. It can preheat up to five hundred fifty plus degrees and it retains his heat super good. So it transfers to the pizza and makes it super easy to make really high quality pizza at home. All right. Uh before we uh dive in further, tell us what your question is. Yeah, so I've grown this awesome community online.

14:09 But my vision for Dogai actually is to turn it into a full fledged brand for all things baking. Um, right now I ha like most of the momentum depends on me personally. I'm running the entire thing, I'm editing the videos, I'm doing all the content all by myself. But I wanna scale it in a way where the brand Can thrive without me. And so my question is How can I make the leap from being

14:31 The guy on Instagram that makes pizza to building a lasting brand that stands on its own. All right. Awesome uh question. Um I want to bring Stacey Madison in. Um Thoughts for Sam, questions for Sam, answers for Sam. What you were saying about how do you get Get it from you.

14:47 Mm-hmm. I mean You gotta be in it. Yeah. You

14:51 Have tapped into the secret sauce of the internet and do you know how many Companies are trying to do What you've already done. And you have a following and you have

15:05 I mean You can't go. There's a value right now. Yeah. Yeah, no that that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, okay. Uh I have a question for you. How what you you mentioned that you have this idea for creating a full f Like a full on

15:19 Baking brand. So you've got the steel. Tell me like let's just get a crystal ball. If you had your Barbie Dream House Right, I always say that'cause I when I was a little kid, I watched my sisters play with the Barbie Dream House and I kinda wanted one too,'cause it was a pretty awesome house. She had a pool and all that cool stuff. Yeah. You're looking at the dream house. What is the ba what what kind of things are you selling in ten years from now? Yeah, so obviously all thing pizza making, um, in terms of like cutting and launching even hot honey type things, um things that could sit on shelves, but also bread. Desserts. Anything baking related. And it happens to be so my audience is mostly bail.

15:55 Um, and so there isn't really a baking brand. that exists that is targeted towards the male audience. But I think there's a a big There's a big uh market for men for men to get into sourdough baking and things like that. Totally. Do you have I mean w I I I wonder I mean, uh I agree with Stacey a hundred percent. Right now you're it's too early. You have to be the brand guy and you're gonna have to do everything for a while and really establish

16:20 the steel as the steel to get. And y you're right. I mean if if you want to buy an Uni or a Gosni or one of these ovens, you're you're looking at three, four, five hundred more dollars. Where and how much is your retail for your your product? One nineteen. One nineteen. So yeah, it's a great deal. You can make a pretty great pizza at home with a steel. Um I I wonder whether you are I mean, to me it seems like you have an opportunity. How many and how many followers do you have on Instagram? About hundred and thirty thousand.

16:47 That's amazing. I mean now you have an opportunity to and it's all about pizza, basically. It's all pizza right now. Yeah. Do you have ha do have you put in any it featured any like community content like like pizza fails that You know, great pizza fails from people or anything like that. Because everyone screws up pizza the first time they make it off the peel. When they're trying to put it from the peel into the oven, they always mess it up. Have you had any tried anything like that?

17:12 That's a great qu um that's a great question. I so I do have people Tagging me every single day, and I always post about other people's pizza pizza making creations, but I haven't tried the fail thing, which could be which could be really funny because I I failed a lot. You know, it's hard to get it going. My goal is to make it so it's not so hard, but it's definitely It's definitely a learning curve. So that's a good idea. I think that's good because the I quit after

17:36 I made one. Yeah. You quit. Why'd you quit? Oh, it was just such a disaster. I'm like, I'm not a I'm not a pizza maker. I stick to salad dressing. No, you didn't put enough flour on the peel. Yeah. That's why you gotta you gotta work fast. That's sauce. You gotta be fast. You have to follow doughai. I was very good at making it pretty. I was Yeah.

17:57 Sam, it it's is it true isn't it true. You've got it while you're making the pizza, you gotta shake the peel a little bit every once in a while to make sure it's still loose. Shake it a little bit, okay, it's moving. Put the cheese on, put the whatever you want on. Yeah. Power under it. Yeah, you know. You know. Um yeah, so Semelina Flower is gonna be your best friend. Um

18:23 And yeah, shaking it, make sure you're not using too much sauce. All that stuff. So Stacey, do you think I mean you you m you said this that he's got a really Be the guy. Right.

18:33 He's got it's just he's got a grind. But at what point can he can he say, All right, now I need I need somebody else to run st stuff or operations while I focus on building out this brand. Like can you hire some other people To do all the other stuff.

18:50 Yeah. Like let you know, bring in others to help with the other tasks. So that you can stay on the internet, and you have to because for sure. You need to be on it now while you're hot. Well, thank you. And I love that you are hitting the men. Yeah.

19:11 Uh like What else do men Cook. Meat. Grilling meat. Smoking meat. Right. You go on the grill and maybe you're Yeah.

19:23 I don't know. But you know, guys I mean, again, I hate to hate these categories, but it But they they are true sometimes and guys you see a lot of guys will wanna bake with it like cast iron. Right. Like when they're camping and make like a cobbler or You know, some kind of like cookie thing in a cast iron pan. That's a way better idea. You like that? Yeah.

19:45 A cookie a cookie thing and a cast iron pan. 'Cause that's special. Like you know, that that's like ooh, I wanna try that. Look at that man making brownies in a cast iron pad. Yeah, no, that's a that's a great idea. Yeah, that outdoor space is is huge. And And look at Sam, right look at him, Stacey. He's the he is the man. He's got the mustache, he's a handsome your handsome guy. I mean, right? Like he's the guy. Cast iron brownie, Sam.

20:15 Okay, I mean I think I might be going into the Browning space. Who knows? But you know what? But you you have that Making something delicious while keeping it Exactly. Yep.

20:29 Right. If you can think of things that are unique to the male population and That you're going to make it easy. Something that's difficult. You're gonna make it easy. Like you jump just speaking to you now. I'm like, Okay, I'm gonna try to make a pizza again. I'm gonna get myself a steal because My oven doesn't get hot enough. There you go.

20:47 Or you know, I it's gonna retain the heat. I who knew? Maybe that's why my maybe it was my pan. I think it was maybe it wasn't me. And and s yeah, and Stacey, you know how you're gonna figure that out? How to f figure out how to do this, right? I'm gonna go to your house and you're gonna show me No, you're gonna go to Sam's Instagram And y you're gonna see all the videos there. All the how to's. I'm going to Sam's and then I'm going to yeah, and I'm gonna watch all those videos. I'm gonna Get myself a a steel square.

21:16 And I'm gonna make it for my family activity. I'm telling you what, forget about Naples. Forget about Sicily. Forget about even the Roman style pizza. It's the Salt Lake City style. It's all Exactly. All about the U It's awesome. I love this story. Sam, uh thanks for calling in the brands called Dogoe, Sam Cagle. Good luck and we'll we'll keep tabs on you, man. Thank you. Thanks for having me on.

21:43 Stay with us because after the break, we'll talk to another founder working to take their business to the next level. That's after the break. I'm Guy Roz and you're listening to the advice line right here on how I built this lab. Alright, let's bring in our next caller. Welcome to the advice line. You're on with Stacy Madison, founder of Stacy's Pia Chips. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a line about your business, please. I got Stay C. My my name's Alex Hildebrandt and I live in Boston, but I'm I'm currently in New York City where I spend a lot of time for my business. And I'm a co founder of Studio Peace Go.

22:28 Suyo is a spirits company and we're introducing the world to single origin Pisco. uh which is the national spirit of Peru. And Pisco also happens to be the only spirit in the world that by law is made with one ingredient. Which is grapes, presumably. That's right, which is great. Alex, thanks for calling in. Um and thanks for

22:48 uh asking us hopefully to h help you out. Um tell me a little bit about about how you started this business. I mean, um I you know, I think most people a lot of people know Peace goes sour, right? Tell me about how you got into to making and selling Pisco. I'm from Peru. uh which is what really inspired me to to do something really to to reconnect with my with my home country as a as a Peruvian who spent most of his life in in the United States, I I always felt like I wanted to do something that that that reconnected me and

23:17 I don't come from the Pisco space. I don't come from a family of producers or anything like that. But um One of my best friends and now co founder is a Peruvian and We had been brainstorming ideas for a really long period of time and we decided that we both share this passion uh about doing something that uh reconnected us with our roots. And so it hit us right in the head one time. We were we were back home in Miraflores in in in Lima, Peru, and

23:39 We were drinking a pisco cocktail and we kind of looked at each other and we were wondering Wait, what do you know about Pisco? And we explored and we decided to launch a Pisco brand. Okay. First of all, I'm assuming like tequila or other certain other spirits it has to be made in Peru.

23:56 To be called Pisco. That's exactly right. Uh so y you can't just distill grapes in in in California and and call it Pisco. Correct. So uh much like

24:07 A tequila or a champagne. It has denomination of origin, so that means it has to come from a very specific place in Peru. and be produced a very specific type of way, which I think for the most part is a good thing because that Ensures that we have this the spirit that only has one ingredient at the end of the day, which is very, very cool and unique.

24:26 When did you launch the brand? See you. We uh we launched the brand in two thousand twenty, um after having started the project in two thousand nineteen. Of course Covid came around and We imported into the United States in late twenty twenty one and started selling it in early twenty twenty two. Where are you selling it right now?

24:45 We're very focused geographically. Mostly between New York and Boston and then between San Francisco and LA. Uh that's about the majority of our California sales. Um and that's kind of uh at the request of our distributor. And and uh again we should mention with with spirits it's tricky because you gotta go state by state. Every state has different regulations. So

25:03 You gotta start with one state and then gr grow from there. What is the in terms of like your sales, w where does mo where uh mostly from restaurants and bars, mostly from blicker stores, where are you seeing sales? Great question. So Roughly 80% of our sales l uh this year to date have been in bars and restaurants. Roughly twenty percent will be will be liquor stores. Which uh is kind of in line with what we expected when we launched the brand because

25:30 When you're introducing uh someone to something new, I think it's oftentimes more approachable to purchase a cocktail at a more approachable price point than going into a liquor store and buying a bottle of something that's Yeah, it tends to be a little bit more premium priced and uh you may not know what to do with it. So it's kind of in line with our expectations. And and give us a sense, Alex, of of what kind of revenue you expect to do this year. Do you expect to break Three hundred thousand, four thousand.

25:53 Yeah, we think we'll do a little bit over four hundred thousand this year. Mm-hmm. Okay. Um and before we I I dive in further, tell tell us what your question is. What question you brought for us. Yeah, so uh I'm I'm I'm sort of facing a consumer behavior dilemma. Um If we take

26:09 For instance, being at a bar or or liquor store. Consumers tend to to first decide what what kind of alcohol to drink. For example. Yeah. Yeah, or I I feel like having a V like a soda. And uh Or vodka.

26:24 I feel like having a vodka soda. Today I'm going to have Cheetos. Uh which is the brand. Uh but On the other hand, Sometimes consumers also just order a brand without knowing or even caring what kind of alcohol category it is.

26:38 One example is is Hennessy, uh, which is often thought of as its own thing, but It's a cognac, which is also a denomination of controlled spirit. Right. It's a grape spirit. That's right. So uh so here I am building a a brand that's in a category that's relatively unknown and I'm wondering if if

26:56 uh you Stacey or guy uh could offer any advice on how to prioritize my efforts in educating consumers. About Pisco while also building my brand's awareness, which is so you go. Interesting because I can't think of a single Pisco brand, right? I can think of vodka brands or, you know, gin brands, but I cannot think of a Peace Co Brand, which which to me seems like a great opportunity. Before we um I I I weigh in, I want to bring in Stacey Madison. Stacey, a lot to think about here. Alex

27:24 has this p Pisco brand. I'm sure you've had Pisco Sours in Miami,'cause there's some awesome Peruvian restaurants down there. Um, what do you think? What I mean the ha w brand or or c or category or what? Okay. Well first I went Last night. And had a piece go sour.

27:44 I asked the bartender You know Can I see your pisco? Like what kind of pisco you pourin' here? Because I wanted to hear what he uh did he know anything about it, you know, th things like that. The question is is there like a suyo sour?

28:02 Great question. We We actually tend to lean away from the pisco sour, which could be another question to to Um phrase back at you. The Pisca Sour is is what everybody intuitively orders because that's really all they know, but

28:16 Yeah. Our experience has been that the Pisco Sour tends to be a little um less approachable in that it has an egg white in it and it's kind of complicated to make at home. So We've been looking for something that uh can be made at home. Uh it has very few ingredients, it's very simple. So uh what we push is the Pisco Punch, which I think maybe to your point doesn't have our name in it, and maybe we should find a way to incorporate our name into it. Um but it is a traditional cocktail that we What's in the Pisco Punch, yeah. The the the Pisco Punch, uh traditionally is really just three ingredients, and because we love simplicity, this has made a lot of sense for us.

28:50 going to be Pisco, of course. Pineapple juice and lime juice, and that's all you need. If you know how to make a margarita, you can make a pisco punch is the way we've been approaching it. You just need those three ingredients. Got it. Okay, cool. Yeah. Um

29:04 Other than a Pisco Sour. What else is Pisco used for. There there are a lot of options which is a double edged sword. Uh, there's so many different directions we can go, but how do you keep it simple and try to find that one thing that

29:19 that really, really takes off. So We play a lot with the martini. uh swap in Pisco for the vodka or the gin. Because we have two different expressions that have uh similar profiles to both

29:29 Vodka and Jin respectively. you can do um other easy high balls like pisco tonic, which is a super Peruvian drink as well, because tonic comes from quinine, which is originally from Peru. So that's a fun storytelling opportunity for us. that uh that we use and then There's some others that are more traditional in Peru, for instance. If you go to a house party, uh or you go to a family gathering, a celebration, just about everybody's gonna be drinking what's called a chicano.

29:53 Which is just Pisco and ginger ale and you you put a dash of lime on top. Uh that is super simple. It's it's much like a mule, uh if you've had a mule before. Most people enjoy that if you drink. You have to bring your name into it. I agree. I agree a hundred percent. Yeah. I mean it it I mean if it were me

30:12 And you're selling to all these Bars. Take, you know, ten free drink cards, you know, work it out with the bar. And you have a whole underground.

30:25 Crew of Ambassadors. To go into the bar and people do this it's a free drink. To go in and to order Uh Suya tonic.

30:37 And have the people next to that person go It's Suya Tonic like What's that? Oh it's made with pisco and you know pisco, suya pisco and Buy them a drink. I completely underground. Network. I completely agree, Stacey, because look, consumers

30:53 They rarely champion a category unless there's a brand to rally behind, right? So like You think of like Aperol. Like Aperol there are other things that are like Aperol, but you order an Aperol spritz. Patron is a great example in tequila, right? You have an opportunity.

31:09 To make suyo synonymous with Pisco to US consumers because there isn't anything like that. There is no patron for for Pisco. Like the brand is the tip of the spear here, right? Like you're leading with the story of suyo and and what it does. I mean the other thing is Peruvian food is some of the greatest food in the world, some of the greatest restaurants in the world are in Lima. So

31:32 People who know about food know about Peruvian food, but like I didn't know that Pisco had to have a single ingredient, you know? single origin. I didn't know that. And maybe On the bottle, you know, so something like you know Peru's best kept secret or something like that.

31:47 Um I I would really lean into Talking to bartenders about Making suyo drinks. As Stacey said, suyo t suyo tonics, sue suyo and orange juice. But then also the punch, Suyo Punch.

32:03 Um and and really just start to build on The brand and a mixer. Rather than pisco in a mixer. Soyo sours. It can be a pisco sour. Suyatini. Yeah, I mean I I think that's really what you you the opportunity is to make your brand synonymous with Peace Go. There it's just a category that is To to me it seems wide open. I mean, tequila, everybody's intoquila.

32:27 vodka, uh, but not that many Pisco brands in known in the US, if any. None. None and it and the market is wide open. Again it was the exact same thing with the pita chips. Nobody knew what

32:41 A Pita Chip was. Which is crazy. Which by Stacey, I thought you were s such a perfect person to ask this question and and I think I I think you've answered the question here, but you know it's like we go or we go we get asked to come to bars and and do what they call staff trainings or staff educations and We One hundred percent of the time start with let me talk to you quickly about what Pisco is to set the basis, and then now let me talk to you about Suyo.

33:05 What I'm hearing from you two is maybe it makes sense to flip the script and we talk we lead with Suyo and then oh by the way. This is a Peace Go, let me tell you a couple of things about what that means. So how much can I ask how much does the bar pay for a bottle? Yeah, of course. So uh for our core line. uh which are the Quebranta and Italia that you see in there.

33:24 They pay um depending on on the the 'Cause it changes depending on how many you buy. It's between uh between About thirty dollars a bottle and about thirty three dollars a bottle, depending on the market. Okay. So it ends up at retail roughly forty five dollars is is the S R P that we

33:40 that we aim for. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just trying to get a hand on the a feel for Your both your sales and For what kind of drink your

33:50 Creating. 'Cause if you're creating I I have to say I'm not a big fan of the punch thing, I think of something red. Okay. Oh, you want a red punch, not a yellow punch. Yeah, I think of something red and I think of um something that's not as expensive. And I think that You know, you should

34:08 Keep it. Equivalent. To the More expensive cocktails. It sounds like jungle juice. Uh it doesn't sound as elevated to you.

34:18 Well, but it can, but it can I mean I've you have you had milk punch at some of these high end bars, Stacey? But such a the category is so Yeah. Small. Like the general public, I think, you know, in order to get that extra buck. So Alex, I think I mean here I think there's uh w I think we agree there's a huge opportunity here. It's all about Suyo It's not about Pisco. Pisco comes next. People discover Pisco through Suyo. That's the direction you should take. The brand is called Psuyo Pisco, Alex Hillebrand. Uh good luck, man. Thanks for calling. Thanks so much, Guy. Thanks, Stacey. It's great chatting with you both.

34:51 Thank you. Yeah, I uh I I I tell you what, I love Pisco. I mean I don't order them often, but every time every once in a while I'm like, Oh, Pisco's sour. That sounds great. I want that egg white and Yeah, it's like you're eating an egg it's like you're drinking an egg white. I mean how much healthier can it be? Delicious. Um spirits is a tricky category because there are so many spirits brands, but but certain kind of wormholes in that world, right, like Pisco's or or other kinds of spirits have an opportunity. Um, and I would also think about partnering with um

35:23 maybe some interesting Peruvian chefs'cause that that I mean, I think the number one restaurant in the world for a while was was in in Lima. So There you go. I think he's onto something he could really it could really take off. We're gonna take a quick break, but when we come back, another collar, another question, and another round of advice. I'm Guy Raw, stick around, you're listening to the advice line on how I built this lab.

36:01 Let's bring in our final caller. Welcome to the advice line. You are on uh with Stacey Madison, founder of Stacey's Pita Chips. Tell us your name where you're calling from, and one line about your business, please. I'm Stephanie Stucci. I am with Stuckies. I'm calling from Rims, Georgia, and we make pecan snacks and candies. Awesome. Stephanie, welcome to the show, Stucky's You make pecan candy, so like t just give me kind of a sense of what kind of candy do you sell? We're best known for the pecan lagroll, which is my grandmother's recipe. We've actually been making it since nineteen thirty seven. Wow.

36:36 Yeah, I call ourselves an eighty eight year old startup. Yeah. Yeah, and we also make pralines and Uh gophers it's caramel, pecans and chocolate. We do Dark chocolate pecans, white chocolate pecans, and then we have a whole line of flavor pecans, everything from roasted and salted. to honey roasted, kettle glazed.

37:02 Bourbon crazy about pecans. Wow. This is an old this is an old new brand, right? This is not okay, tell me this tell me what the what is the story of Stuckys. It's A crazy journey. So I am an attorney. I spent my entire life doing different things. I was a public defender, a state representative. And head of sustainability for the city of Atlanta.

37:25 And five years ago, I got a phone call that the company that my grandfather had founded and sold. was for sale. And it's your last name stucky. It's my last name. Yeah, so he started it as a roadside pecan stand. When did he start it? Nineteen thirty seven. Wow.

37:42 Okay. Yeah, people love the he made snacks and candies, and people said, Oh, this is great, but where's a restroom? Where's it where can I get gas? So he built a gas station that sold snacks, candies. Kitchi fun souvenirs клін реструм. And she just built it from there at its peak, Stucky's had three hundred and seven stores in fourty states. Wow, can you company, a trucking company, a billboard company. We were synonymous with road tripping in America. Wow. You were the the the what's it called, the the buckies or the wawas of of that time.

38:18 Yeah, before there was TA loves or Buckies, there were Stucky's. We were the first roadside retail chain. Wow. And so what happened to it? Did he sell it like when did he sell it? He sold it when I was a little girl. So nineteen sixty four is when he sold it, but he remained involved in control. controlling it until the mid seventies. Okay. I totally remember Stuckies. Yeah. I I mean I think I was thirteen. We did a trip across country and we would always stop at a stuccy. So all right, so you the so your grandfather starts as he sells it and and and how does it end up back in your hands? I got a phone call that the company was for sale. It was six figures in the red.

38:58 They the owners at the time were looking to sell. How many gas stations do they have? They there were there are about a dozen original stores still around. We do not own or operate them. And they were losing money. It was a hot mess.

39:13 So the brand comes up for sale. I I mean f how how much w did they want, or how much were they willing to take? I paid five hundred thousand. It was my it was my life savings. So you bought the brand back with the idea to revive the this roadside stand or to to do something different? And then I realized it wasn't working and we were sinking further into debt. So I made a pivot after about a year. And I got some business partners and we decided to reinvent the brand just the way it started.

39:43 As a pecan snack and candy company. And We bought a manufacturing facility. Wow. And everything was outsourced and the pecans came from Mexico and pecans are the only snack nut native to this country. They are absolutely delicious. Georgia Georgia grows more pecans than anywhere else in the world. I know. Why is it called the peach steak? It should be the pecan steak. Is it pecans or pecans? What do you say? I say pecans, but I thought in Georgia you say pecans. Yeah, the customers always.

40:13 Yeah. That's what I I want I want to be synonymous with pecans. Um before I get to your question, give me a sense of where like how how how is the business doing now? As a candy business. It's doing well. We're in about four thousand doors nationwide.

40:32 We do very well in farming hardware. We're in some C stores Some grocery like food lion and ingles. We just launched and select Walmart and Sam's Club. And we have sixty five employees. We're the largest employer, Rens, Georgia. I

40:48 The sales have grown from two to ten million. Ten million. Yeah. But Amazing. It's still a challenge, right? It's still so that's my question. So Stucky's was once known as this roadside stand.

41:01 But today we're reinventing ourselves as a pecan snack and candy company. In a market that is dominated by big budget brands backing Pistachos, cashews, almonds, пінаts. How do we position Stuckys and Pecans? As a distinctive must have choice.

41:20 For a new generation of consumers who didn't grow up like Stacey stopping at Stucky's. We gotta introduce ourselves. We're getting on shelves. How do we move off the shelf? All right. All right, good question. Stacey, I want to bring you in. Um you obviously know this brand from when you were a kid, but now it's not a gas station roadside stop. It's a it's pecan logs and rolls and pecans and the and and you know, they're doing pretty well, eleven, ten million dollars in sales, probably Still not right, you guys made some investments in manufacturing equipment, and you got a lot of it, you got a lot of employees, so you probably still have some debt and you still are still Probably not able to pay yourself a whole lot. Yeah, I no you're not right. No, no. It's very manufacturing is very capital intensive. We pay our

42:07 our employees very well We that was one of the most important things we did. We bought an existing facility and we gave everyone a pay raise and we brought in insurance and so all of that costs money. It's worth it. Yep. All right. So let's get to d Stacey, I want to bring you in before we answer uh uh Stephanie's question. Maybe you've got some questions uh for her. Yeah, oh I definitely do. Well, first of all, you're talking to somebody that does not eat peanuts. Oh. I like pecans.

42:35 I I just I love. You know, and that's my first choice. Yeah, it's my first choice of not I love it. I have a question. Like you seem to have a lot of skews. Yes. Yeah.

42:46 Right. Just to just to clarify, there's like dark chocolate, white chocolate becans, cinnamon becans, there's uh the bourbon becans. I mean there's a lot of stuff here, is is you're saying we do have a four line for Yeah. So we have We call them the seven core. Okay. So What area

43:07 Of the store. Where would I find you? And where would I find it? Like if you have all these things that are like it seems like they're very different to have a pecan roll than a bag of pecans or a chocolate or like What section of the store are you targeting This the nut aisle, snack nut aisle.

43:24 And then also the candy out. And ideally, like we're in a fair amount of convenience stores, a lot of independent convenience stores. So you might find a center store and a per in a perfect world, we're in the impulse. section right at the register, right. What's your top seller? The Pecan Lagro. The log roll is the number one seller. It's been delivering for us since my grandmother first whipped it up in her country kitchen. Who's buying'em?

43:49 Probably mostly fifty. Ish and up. Yeah, I mean it's people who recognize the brand. And that's the exact direction. I'm

44:00 Going to be And it It may not be what you want to hear. Yeah. I hear ya. But

44:06 I'll tell you. I would flood The current older population. Like you have a population out there

44:14 who knows and recognizes Your brand. Yeah. So I would start with hitting all the stucky people. And you know, all the that age range, the over fifty

44:25 Yeah. It's not as big it's not yeah, for your core population and then Once you've kind of tapped out that market. Then I would Yeah.

44:34 Expand. From there. Yeah. What's the shelf life of this loaf? It's seven months. And then the the bagged pecans are twelve months. Stacey, this your advice is interesting, right? Because w w the question is how do we make this more appealing to younger consumers? And most of us are like of course it's a no brainer. You want younger consumers because they're gonna grow up grow up with this and they they s they have disposable cash, but actually

45:00 Older consumers are often um ignored at our peril, right? It's like you wanna almost want to double down on the people who know this and and are buying it. I I think you can kinda split the difference here a little bit, right? Because you've got a heritage brand, but you do wanna appeal to younger consumers. You do want People to See this. And so there are a number of things you could try. I mean I think One of the the questions is you your your branding really leans into nostalgia, right? It looks like

45:28 the forties or the fifties. It it's it and and the Stucky's logo is is like that. And I wonder if you can keep the integrity Of the Stucky's logo. But maybe think about a more modern rebrand overall for the brand. But I actually think at the end of the day people are focused on their own interests and and people are focused on A lot of people are focused on protein. And pecans are a protein so it's a plant based protein source. I mean

45:55 I I again I would double down on what's selling best. I would double down on the rules and really try and put all your any marketing dollars, any promotional dollars, any social media dollars into the bar, into the log, but I would also think about Maybe trying a different approach. In parallel, which is You know, um, America's oldest na natural snack since you know Seventeen seventy six or something, you know. The original. I mean delivering protein delivering plant based protein since, you know, since whatever. Yeah.

46:31 I think you could say you're the original. I mean the OG protein. We were doing protein before anybody, yeah, or something. Yeah. The other question I have is You know, we w uh there's a brand called Let's Dotcom. Uh it which it was an amazing brand and and we're featuring that brand on our show. They they sell like three thousand different things, right? And so the other question is Stucky's

46:55 I I know I was looking at your website you do sell some almonds and some walnuts, but really this is a pecan brand. Yeah. And I and so down the road is the is is Stucky's bigger, is it a bigger candy confectionery nostalgic brand? Can you or if you're gonna lean into pecans, is it worth trying things like pecan butter? N I don't I've never seen that anywhere. Um pecan milk. Pecan nut milk. I don't know anybody makes pecan nut milk.

47:22 I mean it's it's kinda pecan ice cream is obvious. Pecan coffee Yeah. Yeah. But I think I I keep thinking about this brand and and Stacey Lo's brand, David Bars. It's just blown up. It's a protein bar brand. It was started by the same guy who created R X bars. Uh Peter Ray Hall, who's been on our show. He this brand is all about protein and he's leaned into it. And he did something really unusual in the last few months, which is they

47:47 They sell protein bars, but they started to sell frozen fish. You can go to grocery stores in New York and find David branded frozen cod. It looks like a David bar, but it's a literally a piece of frozen cod. They're not getting into the frozen cod business. This is a marketing tool. This is a way to to say to people, look, you can eat this frozen cod and go prepare it at home, or you can pretty much get the same amount of protein by just buying a David bar. And and people are talking about that. It's all over the place. It's an incredibly smart marketing campaign. And if you tried something weird like pecan nut milk You know, who knows? I mean, it's a good thing.

48:24 Yeah, it's it's we sell it in our candy we have a candy outlet store. We don't make it, but it is it is so yummy. I'm sure you've got to do it. Yeah, I would s I would source that one out. Great. I I have a question. Yeah, question. Go ahead. Yeah, so my question is all right, along the lines of the protein bar, so someone suggested to me that this to me is take our pecan lag roll, which is a It's a candy bar. And add protein powder to it.

48:55 So it's it's like a protein, but it's got it it would have Caramel coating and it has some sugar in it. How many c grams of protein is in it without doing that? Ah, good question. Let me see if I can Protein says two grams. All right, to start. I mean, I think you could try something like that. I think you'd probably if you're trying to appeal to sort of

49:18 a fitness crowd, I mean they're gonna want less sugar, or you pack it, you really sort of um it's more nut heavy and less caramelly, right? I mean there are ways to to you know to to do this with reduced sugar. Um, and it's worth Trying. I mean the at the end of the day You want people talking about this. Yeah. And I'm allowed to disagree with you, guy. Please.

49:42 Go go. Please. I don't think a bar that's starting with two grams of protein is I I mean she has a product.

49:51 That's selling already. Yeah. And you know, she went from two to ten million and Four years. I think that You know, she's kind of found

50:01 Something that works. And the product People like it. People must like it if she's if you're selling that much of it. I would not change your recipe one bit. People used to come to us and say, Can you make a gluten free pita chip? Yeah. How are we going to make this gluten free? It's bread.

50:19 You can do rice flour pitas. You could you could do, but I I hear you there was an integrity in Stacey's pita chips that you didn't want to mess with and you you know, if people wanted Gluten free brand, they can start their own brand. Right. That's

50:33 That's what people want in a brand. Yeah. I would lean into the history. I would Um Yeah, definitely try to do some kind of crossover since you're in two sections of the store that's gonna be crazy expensive in the long run. So and you're doing your own manufacturing, so you have to be very careful on how many

50:55 Skews you're putting out there. So many people are looking for a recipe that works that's gonna sell. And you have that. Got it. Sorry, guy. I I'm I'm I'm not I'm yeah, I mean I'm Don't go into the I think you should have something weird. I think you should think about the codfish idea.

51:15 with David Bars and have something weird and I think it would be worth just thinking about some kind of refresh. Keeping the integrity of the br of the logo, the Stucky's logo. you know, if you're doing good business to people over fifty, great. But I think it would you you could still retain those people. But bring some new people in. Go ahead, Stacey. You know what is really a great thing to have, you know, you have that

51:41 Pecan. Coding for the fish. The pecan coated fish. So if yes you can do a pecan meal, which we make that pecan coating and then it's made with It's

51:56 Yes, with Stucky's pecan. It's gotta be good. There we go. Can you can you hook me up, guy, with with a brand? So There you go. But I agree with you both. Right? Like I think we need to make sure our base stays loyal and true and spends a lot of money. For sure. For sure. But we we've gotta get a younger demographic if we're gonna

52:20 If we're gonna continue and and so maybe getting a little weird. Get a little weird. And a fun way that gets people talking. For sure. Yeah. And I would make sure that you're always the Stucky's pecan. Yes. Get your name with your product. Stacey's Pita Chip. Stucky's pecans. All right. Stuckey's is the brand. Stephanie Stucky. Thanks so much for calling in. Uh good luck. Keep us posted. It's an honor to meet you. I I'm a Stuck I was a Stuckies fan. Thank you. It's been a pleasure. Thank you.

52:47 Stacey, thanks so much for coming back on the show. It's great having you. It was great being here. Thank you, guy. That Stacey's Pita Chips founder, Stacey Madison. And by the way, if you haven't heard Stacey's original How I Built This Episode, please go back and check it out. Um so many people tell me all the time how that's like one of their favorites of all time. And here is one of my favorite moments from that episode. Wait, why did he say that? Was w were you literally like hand cutting the pita?

53:13 was like three times the size of his left because he was literally using a knife to cut bread. He was just like, Yeah, you'll never be able to bring this product to market on any kind of scale. So for us that was A really hard blow. Thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to check out my newsletter. You could sign up for it for free at gyros.com. And if you're working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business, the issues, or questions you'd like help with.

53:52 And hopefully we can help you with them. And make sure to tell us how to reach you. You can send us a voice memo at hibt at id.wondery.com or call us at 1-800-433-1298 and leave a message there, and we'll put all this in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Ramel Wood with music composed by Ramtina Bluey. It was edit by Andrea Bruce. Our audio engineer was Robert Rodriguez. Our production staff also includes Casey Herman, Alex Chung, Carrie Thomson, Catherine Seifer, Carla Esteves, Nor Gill, Sam Paulson, and Elaine Coates. I'm Guy Roz and you've been listening to the advice line on how I built this lab.

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