Transcript

Disrupting the hair color business, with Madison Reed CEO Amy Errett

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0:53 Hey folks, Jeff Berman here. I am thrilled to share some of the new names who will be joining us at this year's Masters of Scale summit. This may be our biggest stage yet. Reed Hastings, Meredith Whitaker, Van Jones, Amjad Masad, and more. Will be there with us October 20th through 22nd in San Francisco. If you're building something great, or you want to build something great, We want you there with us too.

1:20 Join us at masters of scale dot com slash apply twenty six. That's mastersofscom slash apply. Twenty six. Mm. I got fired.

1:36 For the first and only time in my life. Amy Earrett is the founder and CEO of the hair color brand Madison Reed. But just before she struck out on her own. She found herself in a hotel lobby. In total disbelief.

1:52 I walked out and I had a convertible car and it was a Monday morning at nine thirty. And it was beautiful day in the Bay Area. And so I put my top down. And I was driving and the first thing that I thought of was oh my god, people walk around at Monday at nine thirty.

2:11 They're not in offices like you are. As a maniac. And I came into the house and I told my wife Claire what had happened. And I said we must tell Madison.

2:25 Now why I wanted to tell a four year old is you know, you're not rational. And so Claire in her wisdom grabbed Madison and said Madison, good news now, mommy works at home. And Madison. took me by the hand and took me up the stairs to my office and took her hand and uh signaled to the chair and said, Mommy, welcome.

2:49 After the firing, Amy leveraged her decades of experience and set out to be her own boss. Now she has disrupted the lucrative hair color industry. You gotta have incredible talent at every position. Huge push. There are fires burning when you're going out. Can you believe it? Such an idiot. And then you go back to this is totally gonna be amazing. There are so many easy ways. Sorry, we made a mistake. But you have to time it right. Oops.

3:22 Not ball ten years later and be like, well that's just how you do it. We haven't made it just how you do it. This is masters of scale. I'm Jeff Berman. Your host.

3:37 More than five million people have tried Madison Reed's hair color products since Amy founded the company in twenty thirteen. She has excelled by finding innovative ways to create quality products with cleaner ingredients and by listening to clients about the features they really want. Amy says her business is all about empowerment. She's laser focused on creating more opportunities for women to thrive.

4:03 Amy, welcome to Masters of Scale. Thank you for having me. I'm thrilled to have you. You and I've known each other a long time, longer than either of us probably cares to to acknowledge. But one thing I did not know until I was prepping to sit with you today. Is that part of the reason that you are the founder of Madison Reed is you got fired from a job. I'm imagining that most of the people who are watching or listening have been fired or have felt like they've been fired. And it can knock you on your butt. Yes. And it can take a minute to get back up.

4:34 Did you need to take a minute to reset? Yeah, I got myself into therapy. And I tried to understand why it was so big, what was the trigger. And it took me down a path of understanding a lot of things about myself. And was there a particular lesson or set of lessons that came out of that or learnings that came out of that?

4:52 That inspired What was next for you? Yeah. So I really suck at working for someone. Like that was the big thing that came out was like the therapist was like, Okay, let's go through that again. And so I learned quickly that putting myself in that position is setting it me up to fail. Everybody has a genius. Inside of them.

5:14 And I think life's path might be to find what that is and then have acceptance about the things that don't work for you. And what are the things that work for you? So the first thing it was really clear like going back to work for somebody. was not gonna be a good thing for me.

5:31 Did you also identify what your genius was? Yeah. I love taking really juicy hard. Almost impossible. Problems? and figuring them out and building a group of people that has a mission and a purpose to do that.

5:48 And for me It was important to have a product, it was important to. Do something um That spoke to something that matters to me and we'll get into it, which is women's empowerment.

6:02 But what I also knew, and this will be interesting as I talk about my V C journey about why that didn't work. Is I don't like to do things solo. Yeah. Right, like I'm not a great individual contributor. I like teams. I like building teams. I like rallying teams. I find that whole team experience of taking a group of people through an impossible journey together.

6:25 in understanding those dynamics and figuring them out to be so They just fascinate me. Yeah, and you light up when you talk about it. Yeah, I'm obsessed with the fact that you know Madison Reed today has over a thousand people. Right.

6:39 And in my mind, what we have is a huge social experiment. There's a business. But it is a social experiment of a thousand people with all their lives coming together. Who have to embrace a single mission. And accomplish that every day.

6:55 That is really hard. And I find it just completely fascinating, which is why I spend twenty five percent of my time on culture. Yeah. So I wanna come back around to that because you referenced your time as a venture capitalist. That's when you and I met. Yeah. And it's not obvious that that's where you would go and what you would do when you're so passionate as a Team leader, a team member, as someone who wants to to be a part of a team to build and solve problems. VCs talk about that a lot. They don't always do that. Why did you choose to become a V C and what was that experience like?

7:31 The truth is that I had an association through the Place I got fired from. Mamra. Mm-hmm. Seattle based.

7:41 Howard Schultz. And They had wanted to invest in the company that I had just gotten fired from. And so they were sort of reaching out to me saying what the heck happened.

7:51 And then said, Hey, we really liked you. Why don't you come hang out with us? And the theory was I'd be an EIR, which is an entrepreneur residence. And then start something. Right. And then Mavron would likely invest in it. Yeah. But as I started to do it more, I did become intrigued by the problems I was seeing and the juicy it's really hard to be a great VC. It's like almost virtually impossible. So that was a hook. Because why

8:18 We did early stage investing. So you have to see things around the corner before other people do. You have to have a great read on people. And the biggest element is that what people don't understand is there is an element of luck that you could never Replicate. So it's right place, right time, right people.

8:38 Now what was great was they never had a Bay Area office. So if you think about it, it was like I was given a taste to do a startup of an established brand already within a region that they weren't represented in. And that was really fun. When that was over and the office was running and we were getting deal flow and the brand was established was when I started to have an itch again. And then I did incubate Madison Reid in their office.

9:05 How long were you at Mavron? Six and a half years. And while you were there, Dollar Shave Club came in and pitched. Yeah. And Mavron did not invest. No. Why not? Well, first of all, I don't think that this qualifies for bad judgment of anybody at Mavron. I think it's just was a moment in time. And you have to remember, you know, it the irony is Mike Dubin is now on my board, which is and we stayed close.

9:30 As friends. And he's been a mentor to me. He's a wonderful guy. Founder of Dollar Shave Club Founder of Dollar Shave Club. And we passed for all of the reasons that one might think at that time didn't make sense about Shaving You know, size of the prize.

9:45 How do you take Gillette on? Who's gonna buy this stuff direct to consumer? But the irony of it, it was the sort of Seed. Of what happened with Madison Reed. Yeah. Because after we passed, and I stay close to Mike.

10:00 I had a summer GSB intern. Do a analytical scan. Of what would be the women's analogue to shaving. Wow. What a great summer

10:12 Internship and project. What came up to the top of the list and I kept saying to her, Go back these numbers can't be right was hair color. Because the numbers were huge. They're huge and repetitive. Right. Like shaving. And We couldn't find anything online that owned the space.

10:30 Wow. So Dollar Shave was in some ways an inspiration to explore. Yeah. And so When the summer intern, what's their name? Rebecca. Rebecca. When Rebecca came back and said, No, no, no, Amy, these numbers are real. Like this is the addressable market. This is not a

10:47 I love you guys. Right, right, right. No, yeah, I think you just triggered some PTSD for some investors out there. But that's one of the things about consumer products is a high repeat purchase or subscription product has so much more value than consumable. And consumable. Right. So when Rebecca presented this to you and you're sitting there and getting her on the numbers, are you starting to get the itch now? Are you really Yeah. No, I had the itch now, but I had also been intrigued a lot that we were incubating things. So I was sort of thinking, Well, I'm gonna find a great entrepreneur who's gonna know how to do this and I'm gonna help them and I'll be the board member and put the money in. That was the first Iteration.

11:31 And Then I remembered one important thing as I was going through this. I kept thinking Well They're gonna have all the fun. Now that is a incredibly crazy

11:42 Thought process. for pain and suffering in the future. Yeah. But I remember that All the boards I was on when I was at Mavron, I used to be jealous. of the CEO. I used to want to be in that seat.

11:56 definitely control my behavior because The investor that wants to be in that seat is quite dangerous, by the way. I don't think any of my entrepreneurs would say that I was there to be helpful. But all the other board members, Jeff, would get in their car and get the heck out of there when the board meeting was done. And I just wanted to chat with the CEO and see if I could understand. How to help.

12:19 Right. So That started to get me to kind of scratch the itch. And again. Claire, my wife, who's knows nothing about business but is right all the time, damn it, said to me, I don't really understand why you're not doing this.

12:35 Now. The second part of the story Is that Claire started to go great when she was twenty two years old. So

12:43 In order to be I think create a great set of products. you have to understand a pain point. Mm-hmm. And this consumer pain point was this person was going to get their hair colored every two and a half to three weeks, sitting in a chair for three hours. And is one of those people who cares about ingredients.

13:02 And could not her hair every two and a half to three weeks. Yeah. Yeah, and probably not spending a small amount of money to do this in the process. Uh no. Right. Yes. So you saw the problem. I saw the problem. You saw the opportunity. I saw the opportunity. Um what happens next? How do you get Madison Reed off the ground? So the first place was could we make

13:27 Hair color. With better ingredients. And in of enough shades. And could we color match people without seeing them? Аз орси ріл проблем.

13:40 So because I was a VC, I had access. And I got somebody that was running something large at L'Oreal to talk to me on the phone for two hours. And at the end, I was asking enough questions, the person said, Are you thinking about doing something? And I said, Well, I'm not sure I may fund it and this person stopped and said

14:01 If you do count me in, I'll put money in. Wow. That's how big this problem is. Wow. From L'Oreal. This is this is this is not some small Yeah. Yeah. And he was running something adjacent to a hair color brand, right? And then I said, Well, do you know scientists or you know people I can talk to? And he said, Here's three consultants that do this for people who knew. Right. And I connected

14:24 to all three picked one. And we went on an adventure to Italy together. Why Italy? Because it is where Most private label hair color is made.

14:36 And the EU has very strict regulatory environment. Where basically You can't put certain things in personal care products. So I knew we had a chance. It was a hard problem to solve to take all of the nasty stuff out and put good stuff in.

14:54 And uh so we went to Italy. We we met with thirteen private label. Providers. The first ten just completely laughed at me. I mean it was you know just because their their business is basically like you pick our formula, you put your label on it, your brand on it, and it's a very good thing. And it's on somebody else's shelf. Right.

15:12 Right. Or making it for uh European distribution, Middle East distribution, or right? Selling hair color online as a D to C company With enough shades and you want us to take the ingredients out. And you're gonna

15:27 devise a way to color match somebody. Yeah lucky number eleven. And what happened in that last meeting? The owner. who is still our partner today.

15:41 Just Was listening and listening and listening. And he stopped me and he said I don't know why I'm gonna say yes to this. But I'm gonna say yes, but here are the two criteria.

15:53 You have to pay me all the money for the first run up front and it's got to be in Euros. Wow. And I without Even Pausing said, Okay, no problem.

16:03 Do you remember how much that first run cost? Yeah, that first run cost about I don't know, maybe eighty thousand dollars and I funded it myself. You funded yourself, right. Bye. put in my suitcase. Nineteen shades of the color and brought them to

16:19 The person that used to do my hair, who's the most famous stylist in San Francisco. And I said to him Listen. Uh, if I bring a bunch of uh women in on a Friday night and buy the wine and cheese, will you get nineteen different shades put on people and let's see in reality. And I'll give you some part of the company to do it. Wow.

16:39 And he did. Wow. So eightin of the people We're thrilled. It was like nothing I had ever seen in my life. And I mean, and one, my ex-college best friend was screaming at me. So I also learned. She's like, Amy Aaron, I'm going to see my effing husband in forty five minutes. You better effing fix this. Let's be clear, she's not your ex best friend. No, she's no, it's college. No, she's still a really close friend and we knew how to fix it. Well, I didn't put the stylist in. Right. Right. But I saw the elation.

17:10 Yeah. And I saw the absolute sheer terror. Mm-hmm. And that was an important moment for me. More with Amy about her incredible story of disruption and scale.

17:23 In just a minute. Hey, listeners, Bob here. If you listen to Rapid Response on Masters of Scale, you may be missing half the show because every Friday we release a second Rapid Response exclusively in the Rapid Response feed the guests and topics are just as compelling and timely. From Ford CEO to NASA's administrator to the lessons from The Devil Wears Prada. It takes about 10 seconds to find, just search rapid response wherever you listen to podcasts and hit follow to make sure you never miss an episode. I hope to see you there. Humans will never be more intelligent than AI.

18:21 There can be two types of companies. Those were great at AI and those that went out of business because they weren't. How do we build a future? That is human centered. I'm Rana El Calyubi. And on my podcast Pioneers of AI, we answer that question and so many more. As an AI scientist, entrepreneur, and investor, I know what it takes to build AI that works for everyone.

18:46 Every week, I sit down with the pioneers shaping our future. And we take you behind the scenes of the AI that's transforming our lives. Find pioneers of AI wherever you tune in. Welcome back to Masters of Scale. You can find this conversation and more on our YouTube channel. You know that you've got a massive market. Yes. You've tested it on a group of humans and you've got a ninety plus percent satisfaction rate in your first time. That one was really not good. But the lessons from that one, exactly. You've got to figure out funding. Yes.

19:20 And then you gotta figure out distribution. So what what do those look like? What happens? So the first place we then started was sizing the prize. Right. Because I remembered again, I had a playbook from being an early stage investor that it's TAM. So total addressable market. Yep. It's product differentiation. Bingo and it's team. Yeah.

19:41 And I knew that I could put together a team. I'll talk about a big mistake. I did not have a technical co-founder. А не кост. I would say about eighteen to twenty four months of

19:54 really good digital product and commerce experience. Did you hire like an agency to do that work for you? We did it internally. I'm an internal person. I use very little agencies, just kind of a little pet peeve. I think when You are obsessed about your brand. When you outsource that. somebody else can't care as much as you care. It's just The truth. Yeah.

20:16 So what happened was we had hired a VP of engineering and It just was clear that I should have had a co founder that was a technical co founder. There were too many co founders. There were four of us. That was a Dire mistake. Why were there three other co founders? because I was

20:35 generous and somewhat naive and kind of fell into the trap that multiple of the people had very good silicon valley sort of credentials. And They're very good people. I'm still close to them.

20:50 But What you start learning is when you start something from ground level The ability that You need to have people have to do two important things. Get it thirty thousand feet at any moment and go what I call subterranean at any moment. Yeah. Right. So you need to be the one.

21:09 that knows how to code. You need to be the one that knows how to get your hands dirty in churn mitigation. You like go down the list of the number of things that the granular and the strategic need to match. So you start really understanding very quickly like who can keep up with that pace. Yeah. So as the company scaled, those people eventually left all courageously and nicely and still friends. But I learned a couple of lessons in that that I think we're worth while

21:39 Lesson number one. for me is a blind spot. So that's the other part that I come back to when I talk about your genius. Everybody has a genius and everybody has massive numbers of blind spots. And once you learn what other people's are. And don't blame them, but you're actually curious.

22:06 then you could just make decisions from a place that's not Overly. clouded with all of your trip ups. Yeah. So big thing for Amy that's been something that's plagued me wh my whole career has been

22:20 When I know I know and then I take too much time to let someone go. And it's out of a kind place, but it ends up being something that over time I love you, I love you, and then you're dead to me. Yeah. And so I never I don't have to get to the you're dead to me place. I've learned that. So Yeah, going back to it, so we have the product, we have the digital product.

22:41 And then Once we had a team that was working and knowing the product differentiation, it actually wasn't hard for us to get funded. I'm thrilled to hear it wasn't hard to get funded. We've had a number of women founders on who've founded companies that are Creating products. Disproportionately for women, Tracy Ellis Ross with Pattern and Lauren Wong with Flexico and others who haven't had the easiest road.

23:05 What was your journey? advantage having been a B C. I won't even chalk it up Honestly, to that it was a better idea than anybody else's. Remember the luck word. Mm-hmm. Uh, and it was a time when

23:19 D to C was exploding. Yeah. And it was a unique Thought process. And so I had

23:25 competing term sheets and I had to advantage. Of knowing who I wanted around the table. You also had a product at that point. We had a product that was tested already. Yeah. Not at mass. So we didn't have boxes. But we could show a demo, we could show how to color match that was kind of sexy then.

23:45 So yeah. Uh and and the the trope, Amy, is that the male V C would say, Well, I need to ask my wife or daughter about this to understand it. What was it? Before I let anyone do the series A, I actually told them to do that. So I went and I said listen. You guys may think this is a good idea. You actually don't know. So I want you to go home. And either your wife, your partner, your

24:09 Kids, your cousins, your aunts. And I want you to ask them. about this problem and how big the prize is, how many times a year do they do it. Because here's what I don't want. I don't want a yes. And then it's a half ass, yes. Mm-hmm.

24:22 Because misaligned goals around the boardroom. are a cluster. Yep. And I've been there on the other side and I don't want to be there on this side. So I actually force the hand. And in each case in the A and B they did it.

24:36 their wives have been early adapters to the product and love it now. Some of them have moved to our stores instead of doing it themselves. And I have to say that I have had the blessing of The most supportive And

24:51 To some extent, not always agreeing, which is good, disagreement is good, but I have a very supportive board. That's fantastic. How much have you already so far? Two hundred and forty million dollars. A lot of money. Yes. The company has scaled to, you know, magnitudes that are Meaningful. We are a$200 million top line business that's profitable and growing twenty plus percent every single year. And We're an omnichannel business, so we have a lot of distribution. Okay. So you're growing, you are building your customer base in D to C, you're starting to go into retail. We're starting to put our toe into the retail market at Alta. And

25:31 Then a pandemic hits. We were selling a box of color. During the pandemic, every five seconds for months. You close the stores down. Alta closes their stores, but online goes crazy and our online site goes nuts. Wow. So how did you manage that growth and

25:47 Keep. quality consistent and keep your culture, which I know is so important to you and to the company, keep your culture consistent. Five values that we had day two in the business. Love, trust, responsibility, courage.

26:01 Enjoy. And Cultures can be words. Or they can be actions. Mm-hmm.

26:08 And we take actions. So there's so many things that happen in the company. That reinforce those words. So the first place I start is it it's all about traditions. Mm-hmm.

26:21 And it's all about creating a community that has consistency. that can believe in what you tell them and then you deliver. And if you don't And you screw up. You apologize.

26:33 So the first thing is that from the first week we were in business, I had lunch with a company at twelve fifteen Wednesday Pacific. Every Wednesday and there's only been a handful in ten years I've missed. Um Zooms help that a lot. But the truth is I have lunch. Every Wednesday. It's mandatory. Mm-hmm.

26:52 Pacific twelve fifteen. And the same format this evolve some has happened every Wednesday. It starts out with welcoming new people. Two truths and a lie. Everybody in the company votes on what the lie is. People go crazy. There's balloons on Zoom. You know, there's there's a way to welcome somebody that's saying, come in.

27:13 You're here, right? Your teams wanna be seen. Yeah. They want to be seen for their contributions. They actually want to be seen for where you think they need to improve. They want to be seen as human beings that make a difference. And if you see them. the productivity is insane. So it's like I don't understand when businesses don't want to see their people. And the same thing, there's a ritual within the hair color bars of how

27:39 So the whole key to a store is the general manager. Full stop. You get a great general manager, the store goes through the roof. The most important factor in our business, we have a supply and demand business, right? There's demand for hair color and we have product and we have people in stores that can deliver it.

27:59 The average colorist. In the US. makes less than thirty five thousand dollars a year. This is not the person in Beverly Hills. Right. Right. So a lot of people listening to some like, oh that's no, no, this is a Supercuts person. This is fantastic SAMS, or this is somebody coming out. of cosmetology school. Twenty five grand in debt. They are below a poverty line. Yeah.

28:19 Most of the time it's a woman. And a lot of times it's a woman of color that has kids. Yep. If people don't believe that that is my mission to solve. They're wrong. Because at the end of the day, if this little tiny engine that could can take women of color.

28:36 and give them jobs that they're making eighty grand a year and we we pay their medical benefits. And all of a sudden they can buy their first house. And I get slacks all week long of women who slack me, Amy, I bought my first house. I did it. My kid is seeing me work hard. Like How people change.

28:55 is because businesses decide they're gonna create the petri dish. Right. Now whether everybody can grow in the petri dish is a separate issue. When people can't grow or they're cancer to your petri dish, you get rid of them, right? Because that That is the antithesis of the Core values. Yeah. But My mission

29:15 Is As much, you know, I have I've three customers. I have the customer that buys a product. I have my investors and shareholders, and I have my team. I serve at the pleasure of my team. They are my customer. If they don't buy in. I don't have a business, right? So it to me it's very simple. So living a life that is authentic about that.

29:36 And there have been plenty of times, Jeff, where I've done some bozo thing. Right? And I'll be on the lunch and I'll start the lunch by saying, Listen You know I first want to start by

29:47 Apologize blown away. Right. The first place you start is we're all human. Which means we're all gonna make mistakes. Yeah. If you'd asked me, you know, yes or no, what are the chances that Amy brought Bane in to help with Madison Reed, I would have said, Oh my God, no way. She's an incredible operator. She's deeply experienced. She has relationships out the wazoo. Why did you bring Bane in?

30:13 Uh simple reason. six months into the pandemic, I had no idea who our customers were anymore. Hm. So if I went to the board.

30:22 always lead a board meeting with what isn't going well. Your board should be your best allies. You should never chest pound. You should just be completely authentic with them saying, like, by the way, guys, I need your help. Yeah. Right. That's why you're here. Yeah.

30:38 So I went to the board and I said, Yeah, there's good news, bad news. This thing is exploding. We're keeping the you know wheels on the bus. But if you asked me What's gonna happen in six months? I have no idea. And I don't know who my customers are anymore. And so I from a strategic standpoint, I don't know where to go.

30:55 Mm. Should I open more stores? Should I still be in retail? You know, blah, blah, blah. And remember I have two term sheets from Don't get mad at me, PE friends, masters of the universe. Right. And so You know, basically, um, we went into bake off. I knew the Bain folks. They took fifty percent in inequity in in their fee. Yep. So that said a lot. Fantastic. And they came in and they did a complete study of the market.

31:20 And a study of a segmentation of our customer base. And they gave us so many amazing insights turn mitigation model, like all sorts of stuff that were great. But the one insight. And so this is the pearl of wisdom that I believe and so my Bane friends listen carefully. We'll

31:37 be a thousand X the value of the company is the following. I'd ask them to find who is the hair color bar, our store's customer. Mm-hmm. Because I knew we needed to hit a gas pedal, but I was just instinct. There was no data that suggested I was right. So in the segmentation.

31:56 They identified the bulk of women were called salon lovers. They like to sit there, they want to schmooze with their friends, they tell the stylist everything. But they were of a certain age group that was elderly. Then they identified an emerging group called Salon Realists. Convenience. Fair price. Cared about ingredients.

32:16 Wanna get in and out, same day appointments, mobile enabled, bingo. Strong wi fi, USB ports. Yeah. No mirrors. Yeah. Nice cup of espresso. Yeah. Bingo. So what they did was we took that and we said that

32:31 is the core, let's start marketing that message. And that's when we got the stories wrapped up. My last question for you. Rebecca. the business student who did that summer project for you. Where is she now?

32:45 She's a very successful B C. Wonderful. And she's one of the nicest people in the world. I adore her. So thank you, Rebecca. I love it. I love it. Thanks for being with us, Amy.

32:57 I have had such a great time and You do a wonderful job, so thank you for having me. You make my job easy. I love Amy Eric's focus on finding your genius and then building a team with genius in complimentary forms. It's an important reminder that diverse teams. Do make us stronger.

33:19 I'm Jeff Berman. Thank you for listening. Masters of Scales await what original. Our executive producer is Eve Tro. Our senior producer is Trisha Bobida. The production team includes Tucker Legerski, Masha Makatanina, Brandon Klein, and Timothy Lou Lee.

33:45 Our senior talent executive is Stephanie Stern. Mixing and mastering by Aaron Bastanelli and Brian Pew. Original music by Ryan Holiday. Our head of podcasts is the tall Malad. Visit mastersofscale.com to find the transcript for this episode and to subscribe to our newsletter.